From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns. Welcome to another episode of Municipal Equation from the NC League of Municipalities. I'm your host, Ben Brown. Now this podcast has been around since 2016. And in that time, we've covered law enforcement issues plenty of times from different angles, including topics like recruitment and retention and ways to improve standing with the general public during tense times and things like that. But today, I want to look a little bit more at at what we at the League of Municipalities do with police issues and what we see from the data we collect and the kind of work we do in response to it. With all the standards in place and training and so on, do we really need to add layers of careful protection for better outcomes in law enforcement? Well, it's a dynamic line of work, so always. And we have a number of programs sort of geared in that spirit. For example, one that you'll hear mentioned here is the law enforcement risk review. That's a free program from the NC League of Municipalities, free for North Carolina Municipal Police Departments, designed to assess a police department's adherence to best practices, court decisions, and policies and procedures related to high liability activities in law enforcement. And the goal is to mitigate liability exposures, enhance officer safety, and validate that training and operating procedures meet industry standards. Again, it is free for members of the NC League's property and casualty trust. So that's one thing we do at the League to help law enforcement agencies, and I wanna talk about this stuff more in context, the kind of work we do, but also why. Like, what what's a liability or risk issue we've seen? What have we noticed about, say, handcuffing that might need a closer look? Just one example. Today, we're talking to Tom Anderson and Joe Graziano. They both work at the League of Municipalities. Tom is director of risk control and public safety risk management, and Joe is our public safety risk management consultant. They are not outsiders to law enforcement as a career. We're gonna start off learning a bit more about them and why they do what they do. Joe and Tom, thank you guys so much for coming on. I wanna learn more, but before we kinda get more deeply into the the subject of, you know, something like risk management and law enforcement and risk reduction and things like that, what, I I wanna learn more about you and your your histories and kinda why you're here at the League of Municipalities. I'll start with you, Tom. What does what what's your relationship to law enforcement? Like, why why are you in this position at the league? What's your what what's your background and, you know, kind of what what connects you to the law enforcement community?

me and Joe coming back to work every day and loving what we do. Well, yeah, I I definitely wanna talk a little bit more about what your work looks like in action, you know, when when you apply what you know and what you do, what what what's what's happening out there? And I wanna talk about that. Joe, could you kinda give the same, kind kind of, outline that Tom gave, as it applies to you? You know, what what's, what what's your connection to law enforcement, and how did that bring you to, what you do at the league?

Sure. I'd appreciate I'd I'd love to. Again, like Thomas said, thanks for having us, Ben. The messages that we're we're trying to to share across the state can definitely, through resources such as this, help help share and answer some questions that people may have. But to answer your your question, so I started my career back in, 2003. I worked up north and for a transportation authority. Spent the first seventeen and a half years of my career there working. We ran through Camden and, Philadelphia. I relocated to North Carolina in 2017. I had a short stint at a local sheriff's department before, I was scooped away to go to Wrightsville Beach. I spent the majority of my law enforcement time in North Carolina at Wrightsville Beach to where I rose through the ranks, and I, was the captain of support services. While I was there, I was fortunate enough to, get nominated to attend the FBI National Academy. We were class number two seventy nine. And I I learned through the NA that, we're only as strong as our our our networking. You know? Nobody can do this job alone. Right. And I'll kind of lead back into that here in a minute. And so so after when I was at the Bristol Beach Police Department, I was working with the state in the creation of the, data accreditation program and just realizing, you know, how much law enforcement in this state is is trending in the direction of of doing better and and hearing to best practices. So fast forward a little bit. I was lucky enough to get the opportunity, and I left Riceville Beach, and I was one of the two deputy directors at, training standards, which is the criminal justice training standards division. Michelle Schilling, my my my colleague, who was the other deputy director, she was over in service training, the field staff, basically all in service and the, the schools and the colleges and everything. And and my my side of the house, I was responsible for investigations and, certifications. So the certifications would consist of DAC, juvenile justice, all law enforcement company and campus police, and and and learning and understanding the the nuances of the North Carolina Administrative Code, really kind of bought to the forefront of how everything was working together with everyone at Wrightsville Beach and, you know, through the different associations of what we were trying to achieve and how difficult of a time it is right now in policing when it comes to recruiting, which is a whole other episode we can get into. But so what during my time there, I helped in pushing the state accreditation to the finish line. Karen Ashley, who and I work very closely together still, director Smythe, you'll hear us throughout the state speaking of how the CJ program of state accreditation and the risk review program through the league work together like a hand in a glove. They are built to work in unison, to help municipalities throughout the state, kinda increase their professional standards. And there's tremendous amount of resources right now to help the smaller agencies who may not have the financial means to to get to that finish line. So Mhmm. During my time at the state, about eight months ago, give or take, an opportunity presented itself here at the league, which was essentially the the icing on the cake when it came to kind of my my journey here in North Carolina because as as much as I was enjoying my work at the state, I really felt that I would have much more of an impact locally with local government and on the municipal side of things, with the offerings that we give our towns and and cities through the shield services. So I currently serve on the North Carolina Police Execs Association as one of the, their, and their sergeant of arms. I served on the North Carolina National Academy Board, for a few years, and, you know, we work very closely with the North Carolina Chiefs of Police Association. So we we've feel wholeheartedly that between the league, the Chiefs Association, as well as CJ that, you know, there's a strong unified front for all leaders and local government, you know, to to try to help them kind of find their way and navigate, you know, any issues that may be arising because, you know, I I'm still currently sworn in the state. You know? I I care about the profession. We want to see people succeed. We wanna we wanna be considered a resource and an ally. You know, we're gonna be in the fight with with them. If they're involved in a bad day, we wanna make sure that they're well prepared. So, you know, through through resources and things like this and offerings and that we'll get into in a little bit here. But Mhmm. That's kinda me in a nutshell. Maybe a big nutshell. But

Well, I I appreciate it. I mean, so so hearing from from both of you, it's it's a solid, law enforcement and public safety background with municipal experience. And and that that's just to say, you know, the the the positions you hold aren't just because you happen to have, you know, good leadership skills. It's you know, this is direct, you know, experience in, in the field for for a a long time. And I I wanna talk about some of the things that spur you guys into action and your your current positions with the league. Joe, you'd mentioned, you know, sometimes a bad day happens. I mean, that's that's true for every industry, every line of work, everybody, but, you know, that that would have to include law enforcement. And that that kinda brings about discussions of, you know, risk management, risk control. And I'm not a an expert in those fields, but to me, risk management and risk control, things like that means kind of observing what's going on out there, looking at the data, look at look at the things that are brought to our attention and trying our best to observe what's out there so we can be prepared for what might happen in the future and maybe prevent some of those bad days. That's risk management and risk control to me, and that entails following the data of what's already happened. Is is that kind of a fair way to to to say it, or is that too general? No. I think no. I think that's a perfect way of capturing it. So,

you know, I'll give you an example. So one of the standards in the risk review talks about handcuffing. So things that are, you know, it's a coin phrase from Lexipol. So I I will not own it, but it's one that's widely known. You know, if it's predictable, it's preventable. So, I mean, things in law enforcement for the most part, you can predict the outcome if you don't do them properly. So one of the standards talks about handcuffing. So do your policies adhere to best practice? Do you double do you double lock them and check them for tightness? And do you memorialize that within the narrative of an arrest report? And what does that do? That protects an officer and an agency if an individual turns around, two, three weeks from now or two, three days and complains of wrist pain. Because if you have no way to defend your actions, it's it's kinda he said, she said. Mhmm. And and some of those claims are they're quick and they're expensive. So just taking something as simple as the process of handcuffing somebody and then just putting one or two lines in within your narrative of a police report can help protect you in that aspect of things. So I I think your your definition is is spot on. You know? And and it and it grows in terms of, you know, depending on what you're thinking of. If you're looking at pursuits, you know, as we are all well aware of, North Carolina is increasing rapidly in population. So in the thinking of chasing them until the wheels fall off, you you know, that's how you still operate. You know, you have to kind of rethink things. You know, why are you chasing people? What are you chasing them for? Does the risk outweigh the reward? So, you know, those are all things that you can implement and put in the policy to kinda lower your your overall risk on a daily basis.

So so how is that, responsibly done in terms of identifying what, you know, what the problems are, what maybe just kind of an anomaly versus something that might be an ongoing issue? I I think you mentioned, the risk review when when you were speaking there a minute ago. So so that's that's a program that we offer that kinda speaks to this kind of thing. Is is that correct?

Yes. So the first part of your question, so we have our internal metrics, related to claims and things like that to where we can track on frequency and severity. And, you know, if an agency is having repeat claims, you know, there's something, you know, probably awry that we can discuss and and try to get to the root source of. Maybe it's a policy thing, maybe it's a procedure thing. And if it's just a one off thing, we'll still have that same conversation. Mhmm. But in in regards to the risk review, so our risk review that that Tom had alluded to with that he and Brian helped create, Mhmm. It is is so it was utilized as the foundation of the the standards within the state accreditation. So that kinda goes back to why we have that message of everything is is like a hand in a glove. But so it's a it's 42 standards, that focuses on the high risk, high liability aspects of running a voice department. And it's a it's a comprehensive dive into an agency's policies and procedures. And, you know, if there's things that are missing, we'll work with them to kinda add language and help them kinda adhere to best practices. And I'll give you an example. So, they Tom had created a driver's evaluation tool with the assistance of our chief's advisory committee. And not to bore you with, like, what field training day in and day out consists of. So if you're training an officer, you know, there's observed behaviors and things like that, you're you're supposed to fill out what's called the field training, DOR, daily observation report. And one of those things is how are they driving one through five. Three, four, you know, is acceptable. Five is, you know, they can drive a race car. But Mhmm. With the driver's evaluation tool that we offer and and help agencies with is okay, so how did they get that three? It's about a three page document. So it goes into their their stopping, their breaking, and basically how they are as a driver. So implementing things like that into your field training or having your supervisors ride along with their squad, you know, quarterly just to make sure that they are indeed driving as best as they can and they're not distracted by their cell phone, the MDT, and all the things that they have in their vehicle. So it's just little nuances that will work with an agency to to ensure that the things that they're doing are best practice to help

And and, Ben, if I if I could just kinda build on that, you know, with with Tom referencing it being a leadership, which, I a 100% agree. But the one thing that we're we're seeing is that, connected to staffing and retirements and, you know, it's it's a weird time right now in law enforcement to where you have a lot of that institutional knowledge that Tom speaks of and a leadership capacity that is leaving. So, you know, again, I'll keep saying it, resources such as this, you know, a lot of newer chiefs, they're they're not familiar with what is available to them to help them succeed. So we we want to ensure that they are aware that whether it's us through the Chiefs Association or through, the state accreditation program, like, we have several tools at your disposal to help make sure that you're protecting yourself, your municipality, and your people.

And I definitely wanna talk about some more, offerings that we have, things you oversee that that can be helpful to police chiefs or law enforcement agencies or to municipalities in general. I wanna talk a little bit more about the the risk review. And forgive me if you already answered this, but is this something where do you do you look at data and go to an agency, a a a police department? Or is this something where they reach out to us and say, like, hey. We we wanna, you know, have some more maybe up to date self awareness as it comes to our policies. Could you guys help us out with that? Is it how does the risk review work in in that regard? And are there any common things that are maybe common concerns or things that tend to come up? Not to apply these to every police agency, but are there common things that seem to come up?

So the first part of your question is it's a cop out here, and I'll say it's a little bit of both. Some agencies are aware of the program. They'll reach out, and we'll set up a site visit and initial meeting, kind of go through the requirements to to succeed through that, and then they're off to the races. And if you want, I I can dive into what that exactly looks like. But then the other aspect of it is if we have an agency that, that we're seeing a pattern with the same things, then we will make a conscious effort to reach out and have those same conversations to try to get them out of the starting gates to to kinda adhere to some better practices and policies if they need to. So related to the trends, some things that we're seeing now or some initial things that may be of a challenge would probably be a better answer to start with would be a lot of smaller agencies Have challenges with the buildings that they're utilizing for a police department in further evidence, to where they may have limited space and limited capacity. And, you know, one one of the points within the standard for the evidence is that you're you're separating your high risk items. So guns, drugs, money, they're not packaged with your generalized evidence. So some agencies have a challenging time. You know, sometimes they need money, which we I'll get into the safety grants if you'd like. But, you know, there there are means to kind of navigate that, pursuits and use of force are other big ones. And another one, that we've seen an uptick of recently is our EPL claims, just kind of handling, personnel and and discipline. So those would be probably the top four. But, Tom, did you have anything you wanted to add?

So you you had mentioned, some other services we have to, help maybe new police chiefs or, just agencies that maybe want some refreshers or and we have something, at the League of Municipalities called shield services. And I believe we also we we offer courses that, law enforcement can attend. Joe, I think you mentioned DPL, which is is that employment practices liability. Am I saying that right? So so I yeah. We we have a a variety of things within law enforcement that we, you know, we reach out to informed by a lot of the data that we look at. Why do we offer a certain class that we offer? But could could we talk about some of those other things that that we, that that we offer to, law enforcement agencies at the municipal level?

Yeah. Absolutely. So the shield services, menu is is growing, and it's it's growing because we want to provide more. More is better. So the the biggest piece of that pie that we had already discussed is the risk review. Mhmm. If working your kind of way through that, we have one of our use of force instructor is Gerald Tucana. He teaches an advanced use of force course that he he designs specific for your agency. So if you wanted to focus on supervisors or patrol line, I mean, he he he'll custom make that course, and he goes to your agency or and he also has our, our simulator that if you wanna kinda add that layer into that training. And and he does a fantastic job helping an officer break down use of force to be able to make the a smart effective decision. We also offer our slower is faster course, which is currently held once a year. It's, where we bring in professional drivers to help. It's a train the trainer so agencies can send one of their better drivers or their instructors to the to the school and they could take back, the tools to add to that toolbox we keep mentioning and help their agency kind of learn new driving behaviors. We also offer well, we're looking into creating a a next evolution into that through some of our our partners that we work with throughout the state. Mhmm. So because we need more driving, not less. It's just kinda trying to find the the time and and the resources related to agencies being able to to provide bodies right now. We also offer, the the dangerous crossroads course taught by Scott McClatsky. This is a very popular class. It's, it's the intersection of the first and fourth amendments and and talks about, you know, citizens right to record, law enforcement behavior in public spaces. And he he he does a phenomenal job with that course. It's very well received. The material is constantly evolving. And we also, Tom and I, just kind of revamped slightly, added a a a wrinkle into our workplace violence program. And what that is is we don't teach active shooter to cops. What we do is we'll go to a local government and teach the civilian staff on on how to respond and and what what is the best thing you can do to survive that event. We added a a stop to bleed aspect to that, and we also offer the NeoGup platform that Tom had alluded to pertaining to, all those classes. There's almost four a little over 400 course offerings to to where agencies can kinda go in and and do those classes while while they're working. And another course that we're we're excited about and that we're hoping to to roll out here in the summer is, we we've created due to those those EPL losses that we we keep mentioning, a course that helps new and emerging law enforcement leaders understand the intricacies of dealing with personnel and, you know, the firing, hiring, and all of those things. And and it was kind of a hole that we recognized, and the course really isn't offered in the state. So we we viewed it as, you know, going back to how do you do these these research and things like that. We we feel like this is something with our supervisors and leadership getting younger, that institutional knowledge not being passed on. You know, we're hoping to kinda fill that void with a course offering like this. And then we're also, we're looking and developing I know the lead at some point in the near future will be updating the website, and we're hoping to create, like, a, almost like a new chief's landing page to where in there they'll have copies of, you know, if get some, best practice policies, you know, contact information for our chief's advisory board. We'll have some training and and just kinda make it like a like, almost like a virtual toolbox for them to be able to access from their computer. Mhmm. And then, speaking of the chief's advisory board, we're also, going to be adding a almost like a mentorship program to that. So to where we have our 13 chiefs who are our our pillars and, you know, they are our long time, members of the board. We and they were all very excited about this idea of adding about two positions to that for new chiefs. Mhmm. So that way they can shadow that group, build relationships, build resources, and and, you know, a year or so, and then they can come off in a new chief and kinda come on. So just kinda offering as much as we can to, like like I said, provide as many resources and tools for for new chiefs to to understand that they are not alone, and we are here to help.

So, you know, these are these are great resources. And again, they don't they don't cost a thing to those agencies that are members of our pools. You know, with the risk review, the one thing that and I apologize. I had not mentioned this yet. With with the successful completion of the risk review, you know, because Tom had mentioned, you know, the financial burden that police departments are under. With the successful completion, the the the town is eligible for a 15%, credit or reduction in their overall, pool of police liability coverage. So, you know, that it's a it's a strong talking point for a chief to go to their town administrator and be like, hey. Look. I saved x amount of dollars. Is it possible I can kinda shift that towards some training or some other things? So the money doesn't come back to us. It it stays within them, and they can kinda use it to their advantage if if they're kinda trying to get a new program, a new piece of equipment. And then we also have our, our grants that we offer through there. So we have our soft body armor grants to where an agency is eligible for up to 10, 10 vests of $250 a piece. And, you know, again, it's just another resource for an officer, and it's freezing the members of the pool. So we we we just we encourage

to reach out and This is not an extra cost. And further, it could it could save an agency money. And when, you know, one has helped kind of you know, everybody's helped in a way. And, you know, so so we we hit this from a variety of angles. I, you know, I I believe Tom, I I can't remember who mentioned this, but, the sort of, like, changing, evolving nature of, police agencies or maybe turnover, there may be, you know, institutional knowledge that kinda goes away with retirements or, but we have I I, I know this just from an observer is that, you know, we work with, some great institutional knowledge. I believe you mentioned, Gerald Tucano, who, he's he's fairly nationally known as a like, a a use of force expert, as far as I know. I feel I feel like I've seen his name cited in, like, you know, mainstream media articles about, you know, just just certain things that happen out there in law enforcement. And so, you know, we work with a lot of really great institutional knowledge and and brainpower to help save the the the agency from a bad day, but also, you know, you you could save money and, you know, just all kinds of good things can come from this. So so, for anyone listening to this, I I think we do a good job, communicating what is, available to to members, to police chiefs, to to to agencies. But, you know, just just to cover it, how how do we get connected with an agency to, you know, how is that relationship formed to where we work with them on any of these? You know, how do how do they reach us to get more information? You know, just get what's the communication like that municipalities might need to to hear? Part of that communication, I guess, the first layer that I need would be, you know, why Tom and I are so heavily involved in law enforcement right now, and we're so plugged in

to these statewide organizations. I I try as often as I can to get to the CJ commissions and and see our police chiefs and and just kinda remained as engaged as I can, go to the Chiefs Association regional meetings and kind of use that as a conduit to continue to kind of say the same things that we're saying on here to these Chiefs who may or may not have a chance to to have met us. But, you know, all of our resources and and and everything that we had discussed is is on our website. You know how to how to get those those balls rolling if you wanted to, if you had more questions or contact information and things like that, it's also on there. Mhmm. And I'll add, you know, we we do the typical outreach

So, you know, we we we do have a close relationship. I I see we meaning the the league and and the work you do. There is a close relationship with the, the the stakeholders. And, you know, having good relationships is just good on its face. But is there anything Right. Is there anything you wanna say about what we have seen as far as, you know, pos positives progress, maybe some positive trends or, you know, slowdowns on some bad things that we were I I I put bad in quotes, but just, you know, the things that we design our programs for to, you know, prevent that bad day. Are are we preventing those bad days? Or are we seeing that?

So I think the true metric to determine whether or not you better pretend that bad day, you may not never know. It's just because it didn't happen. Yeah. But I I will say that the relationships that we've mentioned, kind of that three pronged between the Chiefs, training standards and and with us, that messaging that we've been all beating that drum, I wanna say, probably for almost a year now at this point. I have seen an uptick in agencies that are interested in the risk review that want to engage in the risk review. We've got just about 200 agencies involved right now with a little over 70 that are completed. So that trend is going up, and it's not going down because I think as time goes on, more and more people are seeing the value in in adhering to these standards.

Yeah. That that's a great point. You know, like, one incident can cost a lot. And to, you know, have a a better structure and framework to where, you know, that those incidents don't really have the room to happen because you're doing something else that is preventative is is massive and and untold and, you know, the the savings that can create.

Right. That that's money you might wanna put toward, you know, I mean, staff or, you know, just you you mean you can More training. That's yeah. It's it's a big blank that you can fill and and and training and things like that that, you know, make the picture even better. I mean, it's just that these opportunities are are created, and that's that's super important. Joe and Tom, I mean, just your your your background is it's it's it's deep on the subject, and I know there's a lot you've seen just, you know, in your time in law enforcement directly and now working with law enforcement agencies and and public safety. I mean, there's there there's a lot of data you see. There's a lot of stuff happening out there. And there are probably, I would bet, more episodes that we could do together to discuss some of these interesting things that come up. I mean, the the more we can do that, you know, the kind of the the the better in terms of just kind of adding to the the the mission of self awareness and discussion and conversation about these topics. So I really appreciate your expertise. And, if if anybody, you know, needs to, make contact with us or reach out to us in some way regarding the information we talked about, how do they how do they do that?

So, again, on on our website, you go under the shield services, or they can email me at jgraziano@nclm.org, and, I'll get back to them pretty quickly.

Thank you so much for listening to Municipal Equation, where we talk about things that happen in the space of cities and towns from the planning department to parks to legal to law enforcement to arts and everything else. We're either always looking for new ways to deal with or talk about or are just confronting or encountering for the first time. I want this podcast to be a place of idea sharing and the kind of conversation where you can glean all kinds of things that might fit or relate to what's happening in your city or town. North Carolina has more than 540 of them, and there's a lot of variety, but also a lot of common things that we face. So in that spirit, if there's a subject in the space of cities and towns that you think would make for a good episode of Municipal Equation, email me, ben brown, bbrown@nclm.org. Again, that is bbrown@nclm.org. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast and all sorts of services and activities and info for municipalities online at nclm.0rg. Check us out, stay in touch, and we'll be back soon with another episode of Municipal Equation.