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And in that time, we've covered law enforcement issues plenty of times from different angles, including topics like recruitment and retention and ways to improve standing with the general public during tense times and things like that. But today, I want to look a little bit more at at what we at the League of Municipalities do with police issues and what we see from the data we collect and the kind of work we do in response to it. With all the standards in place and training and so on, do we really need to add layers of careful protection for better outcomes in law enforcement? Well, it's a dynamic line of work, so always. And we have a number of programs sort of geared in that spirit. For example, one that you'll hear mentioned here is the law enforcement risk review. That's a free program from the NC League of Municipalities, free for North Carolina Municipal Police Departments, designed to assess a police department's adherence to best practices, court decisions, and policies and procedures related to high liability activities in law enforcement. And the goal is to mitigate liability exposures, enhance officer safety, and validate that training and operating procedures meet industry standards. Again, it is free for members of the NC League's property and casualty trust. So that's one thing we do at the League to help law enforcement agencies, and I wanna talk about this stuff more in context, the kind of work we do, but also why. Like, what what's a liability or risk issue we've seen? What have we noticed about, say, handcuffing that might need a closer look? Just one example. Today, we're talking to Tom Anderson and Joe Graziano. They both work at the League of Municipalities. Tom is director of risk control and public safety risk management, and Joe is our public safety risk management consultant. They are not outsiders to law enforcement as a career. We're gonna start off learning a bit more about them and why they do what they do. Joe and Tom, thank you guys so much for coming on. I wanna learn more, but before we kinda get more deeply into the the subject of, you know, something like risk management and law enforcement and risk reduction and things like that, what, I I wanna learn more about you and your your histories and kinda why you're here at the League of Municipalities. I'll start with you, Tom. What does what what's your relationship to law enforcement? Like, why why are you in this position at the league? What's your what what's your background and, you know, kind of what what connects you to the law enforcement community? Okay. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate, you spending the time to do this. You know, like a lot of our field staff, I have a lot of municipal experience, in my background. And I came to the league in 2015 from the city of Statesville, and that's where I spent the majority of my law enforcement career starting back in 1992. And like a lot of officers, I started at the patrol officer level working in a variety of capacities and probably some of the better parts of my year my my years at Statesville was, about six years in investigations, three as an investigator, and the last three as the supervisor of that team. And then probably the most, fun I had in my agency was the twelve years on our department's tactical team serving as a team member, the team leader for a few years, and then lastly as the team commander. Love the training, love the officers I got to work with, and just the the mission of that team. Parallel to that, I rose to the ranks Mhmm. Of my agency spending the last seven years as the police chief. And I was I was very fortunate to have a great department, a supportive manager, had a great mayor and council, and that's, you know, that's a good place to be as a police chief. However, in 2015, great things happened. The league was recruiting for a police chief to become the league's first public safety risk management consultant. Mhmm. And I did a lot of research on that, and it sounded like a great opportunity for me personally, not just to grow my career path, but to also be able to, you know, invest back in the profession that had literally given me such a great career. So it was a it was a great opportunity for me personally and professionally. So, you know, in thinking about that, the job itself allows you to work with agencies across the state. And, you know, what really keyed me in on was, you know, in identifying and developing best practices, to help develop programs and resources to better the profession, from a big picture standpoint. And that was that was really the motivation as to why I applied and competed for the position. So 2015, I went through the interview process, was offered the position, fortunately, and I accepted. The hardest part, and I would say the most difficult part of the process, was notifying my manager and my department, and then I individually went to each of my each of my council members. And that was the toughest part of it. Yeah. I then went, into a reserve capacity with my agency, spent a couple of years, as a reserve officer to maintain my certifications. And then around 2019, I totally separated from Statesville, moved my certification to the North Carolina Department of Insurance's criminal investigations division, got sworn in as a special agent part time. Mhmm. And I help them with their firearms training and their in service training and whatever they need just to hold my certification. So coming to the league, we hit the ground running. And I was fortunate that, Brian Lillard, who is now our executive director, prior to me coming, he put together, the league's first chief's advisory committee, really the first in the nation for a a league or a insurance pool Right. To develop such a capacity. But this group is made up from 12 chiefs from across the state representing different municipalities and sizes and geographies, and they were very instrumental in working with me to develop a lot of the programs that Joe's gonna discuss here shortly. So and I you know, on a personal note, I gotta tell you that coming to the league was probably more than I hoped it would be. And and in saying that, I've Joe will tell you, I've been eligible to retire for several years, but I truly love what we do. I I really enjoy our mission, the things that we get to do working with local governments across North Carolina, things that really matter. And this is a leadership organization, and that's important to me. So I worked as a public safety consultant up until 2019 and then promoted, to the director of loss control field services and public safety. And in that capacity, I work with a a team of leaders, including Joe. That team includes the public safety position that Joe has, two HR professionals, and three other general risk management members. And we we address risk management concerns across the state. And I when I say that, it's the full spectrum of municipal risk management. Everything from public works to the city manager's office and everything in between. There's a a lot of liabilities and a lot of things that lead to claims and lawsuits, injuries, deaths, and, you know, that's it's our job to help keep those things from happening. Mhmm. And, that's what keeps me and Joe coming back to work every day and loving what we do. Well, yeah, I I definitely wanna talk a little bit more about what your work looks like in action, you know, when when you apply what you know and what you do, what what what's what's happening out there? And I wanna talk about that. Joe, could you kinda give the same, kind kind of, outline that Tom gave, as it applies to you? You know, what what's, what what's your connection to law enforcement, and how did that bring you to, what you do at the league? Sure. I'd appreciate I'd I'd love to. Again, like Thomas said, thanks for having us, Ben. The messages that we're we're trying to to share across the state can definitely, through resources such as this, help help share and answer some questions that people may have. But to answer your your question, so I started my career back in, 2003. I worked up north and for a transportation authority. Spent the first seventeen and a half years of my career there working. We ran through Camden and, Philadelphia. I relocated to North Carolina in 2017. I had a short stint at a local sheriff's department before, I was scooped away to go to Wrightsville Beach. I spent the majority of my law enforcement time in North Carolina at Wrightsville Beach to where I rose through the ranks, and I, was the captain of support services. While I was there, I was fortunate enough to, get nominated to attend the FBI National Academy. We were class number two seventy nine. And I I learned through the NA that, we're only as strong as our our our networking. You know? Nobody can do this job alone. Right. And I'll kind of lead back into that here in a minute. And so so after when I was at the Bristol Beach Police Department, I was working with the state in the creation of the, data accreditation program and just realizing, you know, how much law enforcement in this state is is trending in the direction of of doing better and and hearing to best practices. So fast forward a little bit. I was lucky enough to get the opportunity, and I left Riceville Beach, and I was one of the two deputy directors at, training standards, which is the criminal justice training standards division. Michelle Schilling, my my my colleague, who was the other deputy director, she was over in service training, the field staff, basically all in service and the, the schools and the colleges and everything. And and my my side of the house, I was responsible for investigations and, certifications. So the certifications would consist of DAC, juvenile justice, all law enforcement company and campus police, and and and learning and understanding the the nuances of the North Carolina Administrative Code, really kind of bought to the forefront of how everything was working together with everyone at Wrightsville Beach and, you know, through the different associations of what we were trying to achieve and how difficult of a time it is right now in policing when it comes to recruiting, which is a whole other episode we can get into. But so what during my time there, I helped in pushing the state accreditation to the finish line. Karen Ashley, who and I work very closely together still, director Smythe, you'll hear us throughout the state speaking of how the CJ program of state accreditation and the risk review program through the league work together like a hand in a glove. They are built to work in unison, to help municipalities throughout the state, kinda increase their professional standards. And there's tremendous amount of resources right now to help the smaller agencies who may not have the financial means to to get to that finish line. So Mhmm. During my time at the state, about eight months ago, give or take, an opportunity presented itself here at the league, which was essentially the the icing on the cake when it came to kind of my my journey here in North Carolina because as as much as I was enjoying my work at the state, I really felt that I would have much more of an impact locally with local government and on the municipal side of things, with the offerings that we give our towns and and cities through the shield services. So I currently serve on the North Carolina Police Execs Association as one of the, their, and their sergeant of arms. I served on the North Carolina National Academy Board, for a few years, and, you know, we work very closely with the North Carolina Chiefs of Police Association. So we we've feel wholeheartedly that between the league, the Chiefs Association, as well as CJ that, you know, there's a strong unified front for all leaders and local government, you know, to to try to help them kind of find their way and navigate, you know, any issues that may be arising because, you know, I I'm still currently sworn in the state. You know? I I care about the profession. We want to see people succeed. We wanna we wanna be considered a resource and an ally. You know, we're gonna be in the fight with with them. If they're involved in a bad day, we wanna make sure that they're well prepared. So, you know, through through resources and things like this and offerings and that we'll get into in a little bit here. But Mhmm. That's kinda me in a nutshell. Maybe a big nutshell. But Well, I I appreciate it. I mean, so so hearing from from both of you, it's it's a solid, law enforcement and public safety background with municipal experience. And and that that's just to say, you know, the the the positions you hold aren't just because you happen to have, you know, good leadership skills. It's you know, this is direct, you know, experience in, in the field for for a a long time. And I I wanna talk about some of the things that spur you guys into action and your your current positions with the league. Joe, you'd mentioned, you know, sometimes a bad day happens. I mean, that's that's true for every industry, every line of work, everybody, but, you know, that that would have to include law enforcement. And that that kinda brings about discussions of, you know, risk management, risk control. And I'm not a an expert in those fields, but to me, risk management and risk control, things like that means kind of observing what's going on out there, looking at the data, look at look at the things that are brought to our attention and trying our best to observe what's out there so we can be prepared for what might happen in the future and maybe prevent some of those bad days. That's risk management and risk control to me, and that entails following the data of what's already happened. Is is that kind of a fair way to to to say it, or is that too general? No. I think no. I think that's a perfect way of capturing it. So, you know, I'll give you an example. So one of the standards in the risk review talks about handcuffing. So things that are, you know, it's a coin phrase from Lexipol. So I I will not own it, but it's one that's widely known. You know, if it's predictable, it's preventable. So, I mean, things in law enforcement for the most part, you can predict the outcome if you don't do them properly. So one of the standards talks about handcuffing. So do your policies adhere to best practice? Do you double do you double lock them and check them for tightness? And do you memorialize that within the narrative of an arrest report? And what does that do? That protects an officer and an agency if an individual turns around, two, three weeks from now or two, three days and complains of wrist pain. Because if you have no way to defend your actions, it's it's kinda he said, she said. Mhmm. And and some of those claims are they're quick and they're expensive. So just taking something as simple as the process of handcuffing somebody and then just putting one or two lines in within your narrative of a police report can help protect you in that aspect of things. So I I think your your definition is is spot on. You know? And and it and it grows in terms of, you know, depending on what you're thinking of. If you're looking at pursuits, you know, as we are all well aware of, North Carolina is increasing rapidly in population. So in the thinking of chasing them until the wheels fall off, you you know, that's how you still operate. You know, you have to kind of rethink things. You know, why are you chasing people? What are you chasing them for? Does the risk outweigh the reward? So, you know, those are all things that you can implement and put in the policy to kinda lower your your overall risk on a daily basis. So so how is that, responsibly done in terms of identifying what, you know, what the problems are, what maybe just kind of an anomaly versus something that might be an ongoing issue? I I think you mentioned, the risk review when when you were speaking there a minute ago. So so that's that's a program that we offer that kinda speaks to this kind of thing. Is is that correct? Yes. So the first part of your question, so we have our internal metrics, related to claims and things like that to where we can track on frequency and severity. And, you know, if an agency is having repeat claims, you know, there's something, you know, probably awry that we can discuss and and try to get to the root source of. Maybe it's a policy thing, maybe it's a procedure thing. And if it's just a one off thing, we'll still have that same conversation. Mhmm. But in in regards to the risk review, so our risk review that that Tom had alluded to with that he and Brian helped create, Mhmm. It is is so it was utilized as the foundation of the the standards within the state accreditation. So that kinda goes back to why we have that message of everything is is like a hand in a glove. But so it's a it's 42 standards, that focuses on the high risk, high liability aspects of running a voice department. And it's a it's a comprehensive dive into an agency's policies and procedures. And, you know, if there's things that are missing, we'll work with them to kinda add language and help them kinda adhere to best practices. And I'll give you an example. So, they Tom had created a driver's evaluation tool with the assistance of our chief's advisory committee. And not to bore you with, like, what field training day in and day out consists of. So if you're training an officer, you know, there's observed behaviors and things like that, you're you're supposed to fill out what's called the field training, DOR, daily observation report. And one of those things is how are they driving one through five. Three, four, you know, is acceptable. Five is, you know, they can drive a race car. But Mhmm. With the driver's evaluation tool that we offer and and help agencies with is okay, so how did they get that three? It's about a three page document. So it goes into their their stopping, their breaking, and basically how they are as a driver. So implementing things like that into your field training or having your supervisors ride along with their squad, you know, quarterly just to make sure that they are indeed driving as best as they can and they're not distracted by their cell phone, the MDT, and all the things that they have in their vehicle. So it's just little nuances that will work with an agency to to ensure that the things that they're doing are best practice to help truly lower their their risk. I'll just add that, you know, the risk review is just a it's a toolbox for, you know, police leaders to utilize to help protect their people and and their their properties and their assets. And one thing that I think helped me as a police chief early on was that I recognized that I was the risk manager for my agency. And, you know, a lot of people hear risk management, they think, oh, that's what you that's who you contact when you get hurt. And you you fill out the claims paperwork. Well, actually, that's claims management. That's something different. You know, risk management is about being proactive. It's about protecting your people. It's about it's a leadership tool. You know, risk management cannot exist without leadership and vice versa. You can't be a successful leader without taking care of your people. So Right. You know, it's a it's a happy marriage of concepts. But, you know, as a as a police chief, as I matured in that role, I realized I wasn't the only risk management in my agency. The line officer, the newest officer we hire is a risk manager of, you know, their persons and their things and their properties. So it's a it's a concept. It's a philosophy. It's a it's a leadership way of of work life. And so the things that we're talking about today are just some of the tools that you as the leader use. And, and I think Joe's done a good job already of highlighting some of those some of those items. And and, Ben, if I if I could just kinda build on that, you know, with with Tom referencing it being a leadership, which, I a 100% agree. But the one thing that we're we're seeing is that, connected to staffing and retirements and, you know, it's it's a weird time right now in law enforcement to where you have a lot of that institutional knowledge that Tom speaks of and a leadership capacity that is leaving. So, you know, again, I'll keep saying it, resources such as this, you know, a lot of newer chiefs, they're they're not familiar with what is available to them to help them succeed. So we we want to ensure that they are aware that whether it's us through the Chiefs Association or through, the state accreditation program, like, we have several tools at your disposal to help make sure that you're protecting yourself, your municipality, and your people. And I definitely wanna talk about some more, offerings that we have, things you oversee that that can be helpful to police chiefs or law enforcement agencies or to municipalities in general. I wanna talk a little bit more about the the risk review. And forgive me if you already answered this, but is this something where do you do you look at data and go to an agency, a a a police department? Or is this something where they reach out to us and say, like, hey. We we wanna, you know, have some more maybe up to date self awareness as it comes to our policies. Could you guys help us out with that? Is it how does the risk review work in in that regard? And are there any common things that are maybe common concerns or things that tend to come up? Not to apply these to every police agency, but are there common things that seem to come up? So the first part of your question is it's a cop out here, and I'll say it's a little bit of both. Some agencies are aware of the program. They'll reach out, and we'll set up a site visit and initial meeting, kind of go through the requirements to to succeed through that, and then they're off to the races. And if you want, I I can dive into what that exactly looks like. But then the other aspect of it is if we have an agency that, that we're seeing a pattern with the same things, then we will make a conscious effort to reach out and have those same conversations to try to get them out of the starting gates to to kinda adhere to some better practices and policies if they need to. So related to the trends, some things that we're seeing now or some initial things that may be of a challenge would probably be a better answer to start with would be a lot of smaller agencies Have challenges with the buildings that they're utilizing for a police department in further evidence, to where they may have limited space and limited capacity. And, you know, one one of the points within the standard for the evidence is that you're you're separating your high risk items. So guns, drugs, money, they're not packaged with your generalized evidence. So some agencies have a challenging time. You know, sometimes they need money, which we I'll get into the safety grants if you'd like. But, you know, there there are means to kind of navigate that, pursuits and use of force are other big ones. And another one, that we've seen an uptick of recently is our EPL claims, just kind of handling, personnel and and discipline. So those would be probably the top four. But, Tom, did you have anything you wanted to add? Yeah, I think being supervisory training is also something that we see is lacking in consistency across the state, with small and larger agencies simply because of the staff turnover. And, you you know, at one time, and I think back to the early nineties, there were generations of officers with staggered retirement. So if I was a new sergeant, I had a very veteran lieutenant who answered to a very veteran assistant chief. We literally have agencies now where every ranked position is a new position. So you you have a a rookie lieutenant with a rookie patrol sergeant with rookie patrol officers, and you don't have that staggered experience. So that succession planning or that succession benefit from the generational, you know, learning opportunities is not there like it used to be. And what we're seeing happen as a result is that, you know, some agencies are promoting officers to those leadership positions prior to even having training for those positions. So part of the risk review is we address supervisory training and what that looks like. And for agencies that are struggling with that, we provide some of those learning resources just to just to help fill those gaps. Because one of the things that we know is that if there's an incident or a claim or a lawsuit, you know, the plaintiff's attorneys, you know, they look at the agency with a microscope. They look at the policies. They look at the training. And trying to make a connection between the bad event and a lack of training is a is a very common tool because they're trying to attach, you know, the that claim or lawsuit to the bigger checkbook, which is the municipality. And to do that, you've got to you've got to find that relationship. So, you know, what me and Joe were trying to do is cancel out those relationships. Mhmm. We're trying to fill those fill those voids and and, again, making that department more defensible and therefore more successful successful. So you you had mentioned, some other services we have to, help maybe new police chiefs or, just agencies that maybe want some refreshers or and we have something, at the League of Municipalities called shield services. And I believe we also we we offer courses that, law enforcement can attend. Joe, I think you mentioned DPL, which is is that employment practices liability. Am I saying that right? So so I yeah. We we have a a variety of things within law enforcement that we, you know, we reach out to informed by a lot of the data that we look at. Why do we offer a certain class that we offer? But could could we talk about some of those other things that that we, that that we offer to, law enforcement agencies at the municipal level? Yeah. Absolutely. So the shield services, menu is is growing, and it's it's growing because we want to provide more. More is better. So the the biggest piece of that pie that we had already discussed is the risk review. Mhmm. If working your kind of way through that, we have one of our use of force instructor is Gerald Tucana. He teaches an advanced use of force course that he he designs specific for your agency. So if you wanted to focus on supervisors or patrol line, I mean, he he he'll custom make that course, and he goes to your agency or and he also has our, our simulator that if you wanna kinda add that layer into that training. And and he does a fantastic job helping an officer break down use of force to be able to make the a smart effective decision. We also offer our slower is faster course, which is currently held once a year. It's, where we bring in professional drivers to help. It's a train the trainer so agencies can send one of their better drivers or their instructors to the to the school and they could take back, the tools to add to that toolbox we keep mentioning and help their agency kind of learn new driving behaviors. We also offer well, we're looking into creating a a next evolution into that through some of our our partners that we work with throughout the state. Mhmm. So because we need more driving, not less. It's just kinda trying to find the the time and and the resources related to agencies being able to to provide bodies right now. We also offer, the the dangerous crossroads course taught by Scott McClatsky. This is a very popular class. It's, it's the intersection of the first and fourth amendments and and talks about, you know, citizens right to record, law enforcement behavior in public spaces. And he he he does a phenomenal job with that course. It's very well received. The material is constantly evolving. And we also, Tom and I, just kind of revamped slightly, added a a a wrinkle into our workplace violence program. And what that is is we don't teach active shooter to cops. What we do is we'll go to a local government and teach the civilian staff on on how to respond and and what what is the best thing you can do to survive that event. We added a a stop to bleed aspect to that, and we also offer the NeoGup platform that Tom had alluded to pertaining to, all those classes. There's almost four a little over 400 course offerings to to where agencies can kinda go in and and do those classes while while they're working. And another course that we're we're excited about and that we're hoping to to roll out here in the summer is, we we've created due to those those EPL losses that we we keep mentioning, a course that helps new and emerging law enforcement leaders understand the intricacies of dealing with personnel and, you know, the firing, hiring, and all of those things. And and it was kind of a hole that we recognized, and the course really isn't offered in the state. So we we viewed it as, you know, going back to how do you do these these research and things like that. We we feel like this is something with our supervisors and leadership getting younger, that institutional knowledge not being passed on. You know, we're hoping to kinda fill that void with a course offering like this. And then we're also, we're looking and developing I know the lead at some point in the near future will be updating the website, and we're hoping to create, like, a, almost like a new chief's landing page to where in there they'll have copies of, you know, if get some, best practice policies, you know, contact information for our chief's advisory board. We'll have some training and and just kinda make it like a like, almost like a virtual toolbox for them to be able to access from their computer. Mhmm. And then, speaking of the chief's advisory board, we're also, going to be adding a almost like a mentorship program to that. So to where we have our 13 chiefs who are our our pillars and, you know, they are our long time, members of the board. We and they were all very excited about this idea of adding about two positions to that for new chiefs. Mhmm. So that way they can shadow that group, build relationships, build resources, and and, you know, a year or so, and then they can come off in a new chief and kinda come on. So just kinda offering as much as we can to, like like I said, provide as many resources and tools for for new chiefs to to understand that they are not alone, and we are here to help. And, Ben, I would add that, you know, the programs and the training offerings, you know, would really be a challenge for most agencies to to put on with their existing training budgets. The the good news is these these offerings do not cost our members anything additional. Just that's the value of being part of the league's insurance pools. Super important. We we would we would rather invest on the front end and keep that claim from happening or making the agency more defensible than this to, you know, suffer the loss on the other side, you know, with with the member. So we're protecting that individual pool member, but, collectively, we're protecting the entire pool, which is also very important to the individual pool members. So, you know, these are these are great resources. And again, they don't they don't cost a thing to those agencies that are members of our pools. You know, with the risk review, the one thing that and I apologize. I had not mentioned this yet. With with the successful completion of the risk review, you know, because Tom had mentioned, you know, the financial burden that police departments are under. With the successful completion, the the the town is eligible for a 15%, credit or reduction in their overall, pool of police liability coverage. So, you know, that it's a it's a strong talking point for a chief to go to their town administrator and be like, hey. Look. I saved x amount of dollars. Is it possible I can kinda shift that towards some training or some other things? So the money doesn't come back to us. It it stays within them, and they can kinda use it to their advantage if if they're kinda trying to get a new program, a new piece of equipment. And then we also have our, our grants that we offer through there. So we have our soft body armor grants to where an agency is eligible for up to 10, 10 vests of $250 a piece. And, you know, again, it's just another resource for an officer, and it's freezing the members of the pool. So we we we just we encourage to reach out and This is not an extra cost. And further, it could it could save an agency money. And when, you know, one has helped kind of you know, everybody's helped in a way. And, you know, so so we we hit this from a variety of angles. I, you know, I I believe Tom, I I can't remember who mentioned this, but, the sort of, like, changing, evolving nature of, police agencies or maybe turnover, there may be, you know, institutional knowledge that kinda goes away with retirements or, but we have I I, I know this just from an observer is that, you know, we work with, some great institutional knowledge. I believe you mentioned, Gerald Tucano, who, he's he's fairly nationally known as a like, a a use of force expert, as far as I know. I feel I feel like I've seen his name cited in, like, you know, mainstream media articles about, you know, just just certain things that happen out there in law enforcement. And so, you know, we work with a lot of really great institutional knowledge and and brainpower to help save the the the agency from a bad day, but also, you know, you you could save money and, you know, just all kinds of good things can come from this. So so, for anyone listening to this, I I think we do a good job, communicating what is, available to to members, to police chiefs, to to to agencies. But, you know, just just to cover it, how how do we get connected with an agency to, you know, how is that relationship formed to where we work with them on any of these? You know, how do how do they reach us to get more information? You know, just get what's the communication like that municipalities might need to to hear? Part of that communication, I guess, the first layer that I need would be, you know, why Tom and I are so heavily involved in law enforcement right now, and we're so plugged in to these statewide organizations. I I try as often as I can to get to the CJ commissions and and see our police chiefs and and just kinda remained as engaged as I can, go to the Chiefs Association regional meetings and kind of use that as a conduit to continue to kind of say the same things that we're saying on here to these Chiefs who may or may not have a chance to to have met us. But, you know, all of our resources and and and everything that we had discussed is is on our website. You know how to how to get those those balls rolling if you wanted to, if you had more questions or contact information and things like that, it's also on there. Mhmm. And I'll add, you know, we we do the typical outreach and, you know, and, again, those associations are very important. But I think one thing that that makes us a little bit different is that me and Joe see the importance of those individual relationships with the leadership of our of our members. So, you know, there's not a whole lot of police chiefs that doesn't that don't have my cell phone and and same thing with Joe. So they are very comfortable just calling us direct with an issue or a problem or, you know, what resources we can levy for them. So, you know, we we look at every mechanism to make those relationships develop and and let the communication flow. So, you know, we we we do have a close relationship. I I see we meaning the the league and and the work you do. There is a close relationship with the, the the stakeholders. And, you know, having good relationships is just good on its face. But is there anything Right. Is there anything you wanna say about what we have seen as far as, you know, pos positives progress, maybe some positive trends or, you know, slowdowns on some bad things that we were I I I put bad in quotes, but just, you know, the things that we design our programs for to, you know, prevent that bad day. Are are we preventing those bad days? Or are we seeing that? So I think the true metric to determine whether or not you better pretend that bad day, you may not never know. It's just because it didn't happen. Yeah. But I I will say that the relationships that we've mentioned, kind of that three pronged between the Chiefs, training standards and and with us, that messaging that we've been all beating that drum, I wanna say, probably for almost a year now at this point. I have seen an uptick in agencies that are interested in the risk review that want to engage in the risk review. We've got just about 200 agencies involved right now with a little over 70 that are completed. So that trend is going up, and it's not going down because I think as time goes on, more and more people are seeing the value in in adhering to these standards. Yeah. And, Ben, I would add to that. I've definitely seen some policies and practices and and and operations that we were able to identify some issues that that could have definitely led to some failures, and even the chiefs at the time recognized that they weren't aware that that that was potentially a landmine that we were able to identify and help them to address. And, so the the positive part of this is, you know, for example, once an agency completes that risk review, which is a comprehensive list of categories and areas of some of the higher liabilities of concern, once they complete that, you know, yes, they get the premium reduction and the benefits of that. But like Joe just said, it it's the things that are not happening that that's the biggest benefit. If that risk review prevents one crash, that's a win. If it prevents one injury that we'll never get to know about, that's another win. For sure. But, you know, part of that process is we we, we recognize the agency and the leadership and the accomplishment to their city council in a live meeting and, you know, help with the press releases. And we we want to to give a positive message to the community and the and the elected officials that your agency truly cares about how they police within the community and and that they are hearing the best practices. So it's a powerful message, and it's one that's needed, you know, right now probably more than ever before. Yeah. That that's a great point. You know, like, one incident can cost a lot. And to, you know, have a a better structure and framework to where, you know, that those incidents don't really have the room to happen because you're doing something else that is preventative is is massive and and untold and, you know, the the savings that can create. Right. And I'll go back to Joe's example with handcuffing. You know, it's a very simple process, but it's a process repeated many, many times in officer's career. And there's totally a right way to do it, which includes, you know, double locking and checking for tightness. But then another best practice is to document that in the arrest sheet or the report. Just one extra sentence, you know, because there might be a claim of real injury or fabricated injury. But if you can if you can document and demonstrate that this officer followed the policy and the best practices because he it's actually in the arrest report, that's huge when there's a lawsuit or a claim. And those little claims nationally are typically around 25 to $30,000 each. Wow. And that's a that's not a small check to write over simply just not adding a sentence to an arrest report. Right. Right. That that's money you might wanna put toward, you know, I mean, staff or, you know, just you you mean you can More training. That's yeah. It's it's a big blank that you can fill and and and training and things like that that, you know, make the picture even better. I mean, it's just that these opportunities are are created, and that's that's super important. Joe and Tom, I mean, just your your your background is it's it's it's deep on the subject, and I know there's a lot you've seen just, you know, in your time in law enforcement directly and now working with law enforcement agencies and and public safety. I mean, there's there there's a lot of data you see. There's a lot of stuff happening out there. And there are probably, I would bet, more episodes that we could do together to discuss some of these interesting things that come up. I mean, the the more we can do that, you know, the kind of the the the better in terms of just kind of adding to the the the mission of self awareness and discussion and conversation about these topics. So I really appreciate your expertise. And, if if anybody, you know, needs to, make contact with us or reach out to us in some way regarding the information we talked about, how do they how do they do that? So, again, on on our website, you go under the shield services, or they can email me at jgraziano@nclm.org, and, I'll get back to them pretty quickly. And then the same here, my contacts on the website, and my email is tanderson@nclm.org. Thank you so much for listening to Municipal Equation, where we talk about things that happen in the space of cities and towns from the planning department to parks to legal to law enforcement to arts and everything else. We're either always looking for new ways to deal with or talk about or are just confronting or encountering for the first time. I want this podcast to be a place of idea sharing and the kind of conversation where you can glean all kinds of things that might fit or relate to what's happening in your city or town. North Carolina has more than 540 of them, and there's a lot of variety, but also a lot of common things that we face. So in that spirit, if there's a subject in the space of cities and towns that you think would make for a good episode of Municipal Equation, email me, ben brown, bbrown@nclm.org. Again, that is bbrown@nclm.org. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast and all sorts of services and activities and info for municipalities online at nclm.0rg. 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Welcome to another episode of Municipal Equation from the NC League of Municipalities. I'm your host, Ben Brown. Now this podcast has been around since 2016. And in that time, we've covered law enforcement issues plenty of times from different angles, including topics like recruitment and retention and ways to improve standing with the general public during tense times and things like that.\n\nBut today, I want to look a little bit more at at what we at the League of Municipalities do with police issues and what we see from the data we collect and the kind of work we do in response to it. With all the standards in place and training and so on, do we really need to add layers of careful protection for better outcomes in law enforcement? Well, it's a dynamic line of work, so always. And we have a number of programs sort of geared in that spirit. For example, one that you'll hear mentioned here is the law enforcement risk review.\n\nThat's a free program from the NC League of Municipalities, free for North Carolina Municipal Police Departments, designed to assess a police department's adherence to best practices, court decisions, and policies and procedures related to high liability activities in law enforcement. And the goal is to mitigate liability exposures, enhance officer safety, and validate that training and operating procedures meet industry standards. Again, it is free for members of the NC League's property and casualty trust. So that's one thing we do at the League to help law enforcement agencies, and I wanna talk about this stuff more in context, the kind of work we do, but also why. Like, what what's a liability or risk issue we've seen?\n\nWhat have we noticed about, say, handcuffing that might need a closer look? Just one example. Today, we're talking to Tom Anderson and Joe Graziano. They both work at the League of Municipalities. Tom is director of risk control and public safety risk management, and Joe is our public safety risk management consultant.\n\nThey are not outsiders to law enforcement as a career. We're gonna start off learning a bit more about them and why they do what they do. Joe and Tom, thank you guys so much for coming on. I wanna learn more, but before we kinda get more deeply into the the subject of, you know, something like risk management and law enforcement and risk reduction and things like that, what, I I wanna learn more about you and your your histories and kinda why you're here at the League of Municipalities. I'll start with you, Tom.\n\nWhat does what what's your relationship to law enforcement? Like, why why are you in this position at the league? What's your what what's your background and, you know, kind of what what connects you to the law enforcement community?\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate, you spending the time to do this. You know, like a lot of our field staff, I have a lot of municipal experience, in my background. And I came to the league in 2015 from the city of Statesville, and that's where I spent the majority of my law enforcement career starting back in 1992.\n\nAnd like a lot of officers, I started at the patrol officer level working in a variety of capacities and probably some of the better parts of my year my my years at Statesville was, about six years in investigations, three as an investigator, and the last three as the supervisor of that team. And then probably the most, fun I had in my agency was the twelve years on our department's tactical team serving as a team member, the team leader for a few years, and then lastly as the team commander. Love the training, love the officers I got to work with, and just the the mission of that team. Parallel to that, I rose to the ranks Mhmm. Of my agency spending the last seven years as the police chief.\n\nAnd I was I was very fortunate to have a great department, a supportive manager, had a great mayor and council, and that's, you know, that's a good place to be as a police chief. However, in 2015, great things happened. The league was recruiting for a police chief to become the league's first public safety risk management consultant. Mhmm. And I did a lot of research on that, and it sounded like a great opportunity for me personally, not just to grow my career path, but to also be able to, you know, invest back in the profession that had literally given me such a great career.\n\nSo it was a it was a great opportunity for me personally and professionally. So, you know, in thinking about that, the job itself allows you to work with agencies across the state. And, you know, what really keyed me in on was, you know, in identifying and developing best practices, to help develop programs and resources to better the profession, from a big picture standpoint. And that was that was really the motivation as to why I applied and competed for the position. So 2015, I went through the interview process, was offered the position, fortunately, and I accepted.\n\nThe hardest part, and I would say the most difficult part of the process, was notifying my manager and my department, and then I individually went to each of my each of my council members. And that was the toughest part of it. Yeah. I then went, into a reserve capacity with my agency, spent a couple of years, as a reserve officer to maintain my certifications. And then around 2019, I totally separated from Statesville, moved my certification to the North Carolina Department of Insurance's criminal investigations division, got sworn in as a special agent part time.\n\nMhmm. And I help them with their firearms training and their in service training and whatever they need just to hold my certification. So coming to the league, we hit the ground running. And I was fortunate that, Brian Lillard, who is now our executive director, prior to me coming, he put together, the league's first chief's advisory committee, really the first in the nation for a a league or a insurance pool Right. To develop such a capacity.\n\nBut this group is made up from 12 chiefs from across the state representing different municipalities and sizes and geographies, and they were very instrumental in working with me to develop a lot of the programs that Joe's gonna discuss here shortly. So and I you know, on a personal note, I gotta tell you that coming to the league was probably more than I hoped it would be. And and in saying that, I've Joe will tell you, I've been eligible to retire for several years, but I truly love what we do. I I really enjoy our mission, the things that we get to do working with local governments across North Carolina, things that really matter. And this is a leadership organization, and that's important to me.\n\nSo I worked as a public safety consultant up until 2019 and then promoted, to the director of loss control field services and public safety. And in that capacity, I work with a a team of leaders, including Joe. That team includes the public safety position that Joe has, two HR professionals, and three other general risk management members. And we we address risk management concerns across the state. And I when I say that, it's the full spectrum of municipal risk management.\n\nEverything from public works to the city manager's office and everything in between. There's a a lot of liabilities and a lot of things that lead to claims and lawsuits, injuries, deaths, and, you know, that's it's our job to help keep those things from happening. Mhmm. And, that's what keeps me and Joe coming back to work every day and loving what we do.\n\nSpeaker 0: Well, yeah, I I definitely wanna talk a little bit more about what your work looks like in action, you know, when when you apply what you know and what you do, what what what's what's happening out there? And I wanna talk about that. Joe, could you kinda give the same, kind kind of, outline that Tom gave, as it applies to you? You know, what what's, what what's your connection to law enforcement, and how did that bring you to, what you do at the league?\n\nSpeaker 2: Sure. I'd appreciate I'd I'd love to. Again, like Thomas said, thanks for having us, Ben. The messages that we're we're trying to to share across the state can definitely, through resources such as this, help help share and answer some questions that people may have. But to answer your your question, so I started my career back in, 2003.\n\nI worked up north and for a transportation authority. Spent the first seventeen and a half years of my career there working. We ran through Camden and, Philadelphia. I relocated to North Carolina in 2017. I had a short stint at a local sheriff's department before, I was scooped away to go to Wrightsville Beach.\n\nI spent the majority of my law enforcement time in North Carolina at Wrightsville Beach to where I rose through the ranks, and I, was the captain of support services. While I was there, I was fortunate enough to, get nominated to attend the FBI National Academy. We were class number two seventy nine. And I I learned through the NA that, we're only as strong as our our our networking. You know?\n\nNobody can do this job alone.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right.\n\nSpeaker 2: And I'll kind of lead back into that here in a minute. And so so after when I was at the Bristol Beach Police Department, I was working with the state in the creation of the, data accreditation program and just realizing, you know, how much law enforcement in this state is is trending in the direction of of doing better and and hearing to best practices. So fast forward a little bit. I was lucky enough to get the opportunity, and I left Riceville Beach, and I was one of the two deputy directors at, training standards, which is the criminal justice training standards division. Michelle Schilling, my my my colleague, who was the other deputy director, she was over in service training, the field staff, basically all in service and the, the schools and the colleges and everything.\n\nAnd and my my side of the house, I was responsible for investigations and, certifications. So the certifications would consist of DAC, juvenile justice, all law enforcement company and campus police, and and and learning and understanding the the nuances of the North Carolina Administrative Code, really kind of bought to the forefront of how everything was working together with everyone at Wrightsville Beach and, you know, through the different associations of what we were trying to achieve and how difficult of a time it is right now in policing when it comes to recruiting, which is a whole other episode we can get into. But so what during my time there, I helped in pushing the state accreditation to the finish line. Karen Ashley, who and I work very closely together still, director Smythe, you'll hear us throughout the state speaking of how the CJ program of state accreditation and the risk review program through the league work together like a hand in a glove. They are built to work in unison, to help municipalities throughout the state, kinda increase their professional standards.\n\nAnd there's tremendous amount of resources right now to help the smaller agencies who may not have the financial means to to get to that finish line. So\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: During my time at the state, about eight months ago, give or take, an opportunity presented itself here at the league, which was essentially the the icing on the cake when it came to kind of my my journey here in North Carolina because as as much as I was enjoying my work at the state, I really felt that I would have much more of an impact locally with local government and on the municipal side of things, with the offerings that we give our towns and and cities through the shield services. So I currently serve on the North Carolina Police Execs Association as one of the, their, and their sergeant of arms. I served on the North Carolina National Academy Board, for a few years, and, you know, we work very closely with the North Carolina Chiefs of Police Association. So we we've feel wholeheartedly that between the league, the Chiefs Association, as well as CJ that, you know, there's a strong unified front for all leaders and local government, you know, to to try to help them kind of find their way and navigate, you know, any issues that may be arising because, you know, I I'm still currently sworn in the state.\n\nYou know? I I care about the profession. We want to see people succeed. We wanna we wanna be considered a resource and an ally. You know, we're gonna be in the fight with with them.\n\nIf they're involved in a bad day, we wanna make sure that they're well prepared. So, you know, through through resources and things like this and offerings and that we'll get into in a little bit here. But Mhmm. That's kinda me in a nutshell. Maybe a big nutshell.\n\nBut\n\nSpeaker 0: Well, I I appreciate it. I mean, so so hearing from from both of you, it's it's a solid, law enforcement and public safety background with municipal experience. And and that that's just to say, you know, the the the positions you hold aren't just because you happen to have, you know, good leadership skills. It's you know, this is direct, you know, experience in, in the field for for a a long time. And I I wanna talk about some of the things that spur you guys into action and your your current positions with the league.\n\nJoe, you'd mentioned, you know, sometimes a bad day happens. I mean, that's that's true for every industry, every line of work, everybody, but, you know, that that would have to include law enforcement. And that that kinda brings about discussions of, you know, risk management, risk control. And I'm not a an expert in those fields, but to me, risk management and risk control, things like that means kind of observing what's going on out there, looking at the data, look at look at the things that are brought to our attention and trying our best to observe what's out there so we can be prepared for what might happen in the future and maybe prevent some of those bad days. That's risk management and risk control to me, and that entails following the data of what's already happened.\n\nIs is that kind of a fair way to to to say it, or is that too general?\n\nSpeaker 2: No. I think no. I think that's a perfect way of capturing it. So, you know, I'll give you an example. So one of the standards in the risk review talks about handcuffing.\n\nSo things that are, you know, it's a coin phrase from Lexipol. So I I will not own it, but it's one that's widely known. You know, if it's predictable, it's preventable. So, I mean, things in law enforcement for the most part, you can predict the outcome if you don't do them properly. So one of the standards talks about handcuffing.\n\nSo do your policies adhere to best practice? Do you double do you double lock them and check them for tightness? And do you memorialize that within the narrative of an arrest report? And what does that do? That protects an officer and an agency if an individual turns around, two, three weeks from now or two, three days and complains of wrist pain.\n\nBecause if you have no way to defend your actions, it's it's kinda he said, she said.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: And and some of those claims are they're quick and they're expensive. So just taking something as simple as the process of handcuffing somebody and then just putting one or two lines in within your narrative of a police report can help protect you in that aspect of things. So I I think your your definition is is spot on. You know? And and it and it grows in terms of, you know, depending on what you're thinking of.\n\nIf you're looking at pursuits, you know, as we are all well aware of, North Carolina is increasing rapidly in population. So in the thinking of chasing them until the wheels fall off, you you know, that's how you still operate. You know, you have to kind of rethink things. You know, why are you chasing people? What are you chasing them for?\n\nDoes the risk outweigh the reward? So, you know, those are all things that you can implement and put in the policy to kinda lower your your overall risk on a daily basis.\n\nSpeaker 0: So so how is that, responsibly done in terms of identifying what, you know, what the problems are, what maybe just kind of an anomaly versus something that might be an ongoing issue? I I think you mentioned, the risk review when when you were speaking there a minute ago. So so that's that's a program that we offer that kinda speaks to this kind of thing. Is is that correct?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yes. So the first part of your question, so we have our internal metrics, related to claims and things like that to where we can track on frequency and severity. And, you know, if an agency is having repeat claims, you know, there's something, you know, probably awry that we can discuss and and try to get to the root source of. Maybe it's a policy thing, maybe it's a procedure thing. And if it's just a one off thing, we'll still have that same conversation.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: But in in regards to the risk review, so our risk review that that Tom had alluded to with that he and Brian helped create, Mhmm. It is is so it was utilized as the foundation of the the standards within the state accreditation. So that kinda goes back to why we have that message of everything is is like a hand in a glove. But so it's a it's 42 standards, that focuses on the high risk, high liability aspects of running a voice department. And it's a it's a comprehensive dive into an agency's policies and procedures.\n\nAnd, you know, if there's things that are missing, we'll work with them to kinda add language and help them kinda adhere to best practices. And I'll give you an example. So, they Tom had created a driver's evaluation tool with the assistance of our chief's advisory committee. And not to bore you with, like, what field training day in and day out consists of. So if you're training an officer, you know, there's observed behaviors and things like that, you're you're supposed to fill out what's called the field training, DOR, daily observation report.\n\nAnd one of those things is how are they driving one through five. Three, four, you know, is acceptable. Five is, you know, they can drive a race car. But\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: With the driver's evaluation tool that we offer and and help agencies with is okay, so how did they get that three? It's about a three page document. So it goes into their their stopping, their breaking, and basically how they are as a driver. So implementing things like that into your field training or having your supervisors ride along with their squad, you know, quarterly just to make sure that they are indeed driving as best as they can and they're not distracted by their cell phone, the MDT, and all the things that they have in their vehicle. So it's just little nuances that will work with an agency to to ensure that the things that they're doing are best practice to help truly lower their their risk.\n\nSpeaker 1: I'll just add that, you know, the risk review is just a it's a toolbox for, you know, police leaders to utilize to help protect their people and and their their properties and their assets. And one thing that I think helped me as a police chief early on was that I recognized that I was the risk manager for my agency. And, you know, a lot of people hear risk management, they think, oh, that's what you that's who you contact when you get hurt. And you you fill out the claims paperwork. Well, actually, that's claims management.\n\nThat's something different. You know, risk management is about being proactive. It's about protecting your people. It's about it's a leadership tool. You know, risk management cannot exist without leadership and vice versa.\n\nYou can't be a successful leader without taking care of your people. So Right. You know, it's a it's a happy marriage of concepts. But, you know, as a as a police chief, as I matured in that role, I realized I wasn't the only risk management in my agency. The line officer, the newest officer we hire is a risk manager of, you know, their persons and their things and their properties.\n\nSo it's a it's a concept. It's a philosophy. It's a it's a leadership way of of work life. And so the things that we're talking about today are just some of the tools that you as the leader use. And, and I think Joe's done a good job already of highlighting some of those some of those items.\n\nSpeaker 2: And and, Ben, if I if I could just kinda build on that, you know, with with Tom referencing it being a leadership, which, I a 100% agree. But the one thing that we're we're seeing is that, connected to staffing and retirements and, you know, it's it's a weird time right now in law enforcement to where you have a lot of that institutional knowledge that Tom speaks of and a leadership capacity that is leaving. So, you know, again, I'll keep saying it, resources such as this, you know, a lot of newer chiefs, they're they're not familiar with what is available to them to help them succeed. So we we want to ensure that they are aware that whether it's us through the Chiefs Association or through, the state accreditation program, like, we have several tools at your disposal to help make sure that you're protecting yourself, your municipality, and your people.\n\nSpeaker 0: And I definitely wanna talk about some more, offerings that we have, things you oversee that that can be helpful to police chiefs or law enforcement agencies or to municipalities in general. I wanna talk a little bit more about the the risk review. And forgive me if you already answered this, but is this something where do you do you look at data and go to an agency, a a a police department? Or is this something where they reach out to us and say, like, hey. We we wanna, you know, have some more maybe up to date self awareness as it comes to our policies.\n\nCould you guys help us out with that? Is it how does the risk review work in in that regard? And are there any common things that are maybe common concerns or things that tend to come up? Not to apply these to every police agency, but are there common things that seem to come up?\n\nSpeaker 2: So the first part of your question is it's a cop out here, and I'll say it's a little bit of both. Some agencies are aware of the program. They'll reach out, and we'll set up a site visit and initial meeting, kind of go through the requirements to to succeed through that, and then they're off to the races. And if you want, I I can dive into what that exactly looks like. But then the other aspect of it is if we have an agency that, that we're seeing a pattern with the same things, then we will make a conscious effort to reach out and have those same conversations to try to get them out of the starting gates to to kinda adhere to some better practices and policies if they need to.\n\nSo related to the trends, some things that we're seeing now or some initial things that may be of a challenge would probably be a better answer to start with would be a lot of smaller agencies Have challenges with the buildings that they're utilizing for a police department in further evidence, to where they may have limited space and limited capacity. And, you know, one one of the points within the standard for the evidence is that you're you're separating your high risk items. So guns, drugs, money, they're not packaged with your generalized evidence. So some agencies have a challenging time. You know, sometimes they need money, which we I'll get into the safety grants if you'd like.\n\nBut, you know, there there are means to kind of navigate that, pursuits and use of force are other big ones. And another one, that we've seen an uptick of recently is our EPL claims, just kind of handling, personnel and and discipline. So those would be probably the top four. But, Tom, did you have anything you wanted to add?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah, I think being supervisory training is also something that we see is lacking in consistency across the state, with small and larger agencies simply because of the staff turnover. And, you you know, at one time, and I think back to the early nineties, there were generations of officers with staggered retirement. So if I was a new sergeant, I had a very veteran lieutenant who answered to a very veteran assistant chief. We literally have agencies now where every ranked position is a new position. So you you have a a rookie lieutenant with a rookie patrol sergeant with rookie patrol officers, and you don't have that staggered experience.\n\nSo that succession planning or that succession benefit from the generational, you know, learning opportunities is not there like it used to be. And what we're seeing happen as a result is that, you know, some agencies are promoting officers to those leadership positions prior to even having training for those positions. So part of the risk review is we address supervisory training and what that looks like. And for agencies that are struggling with that, we provide some of those learning resources just to just to help fill those gaps. Because one of the things that we know is that if there's an incident or a claim or a lawsuit, you know, the plaintiff's attorneys, you know, they look at the agency with a microscope.\n\nThey look at the policies. They look at the training. And trying to make a connection between the bad event and a lack of training is a is a very common tool because they're trying to attach, you know, the that claim or lawsuit to the bigger checkbook, which is the municipality. And to do that, you've got to you've got to find that relationship. So, you know, what me and Joe were trying to do is cancel out those relationships.\n\nMhmm. We're trying to fill those fill those voids and and, again, making that department more defensible and therefore more successful successful.\n\nSpeaker 2: So you\n\nSpeaker 0: you had mentioned, some other services we have to, help maybe new police chiefs or, just agencies that maybe want some refreshers or and we have something, at the League of Municipalities called shield services. And I believe we also we we offer courses that, law enforcement can attend. Joe, I think you mentioned DPL, which is is that employment practices liability. Am I saying that right? So so I yeah.\n\nWe we have a a variety of things within law enforcement that we, you know, we reach out to informed by a lot of the data that we look at. Why do we offer a certain class that we offer? But could could we talk about some of those other things that that we, that that we offer to, law enforcement agencies at the municipal level?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So the shield services, menu is is growing, and it's it's growing because we want to provide more. More is better. So the the biggest piece of that pie that we had already discussed is the risk review.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: If working your kind of way through that, we have one of our use of force instructor is Gerald Tucana. He teaches an advanced use of force course that he he designs specific for your agency. So if you wanted to focus on supervisors or patrol line, I mean, he he he'll custom make that course, and he goes to your agency or and he also has our, our simulator that if you wanna kinda add that layer into that training. And and he does a fantastic job helping an officer break down use of force to be able to make the a smart effective decision. We also offer our slower is faster course, which is currently held once a year.\n\nIt's, where we bring in professional drivers to help. It's a train the trainer so agencies can send one of their better drivers or their instructors to the to the school and they could take back, the tools to add to that toolbox we keep mentioning and help their agency kind of learn new driving behaviors. We also offer well, we're looking into creating a a next evolution into that through some of our our partners that we work with throughout the state. Mhmm. So because we need more driving, not less.\n\nIt's just kinda trying to find the the time and and the resources related to agencies being able to to provide bodies right now. We also offer, the the dangerous crossroads course taught by Scott McClatsky. This is a very popular class. It's, it's the intersection of the first and fourth amendments and and talks about, you know, citizens right to record, law enforcement behavior in public spaces. And he he he does a phenomenal job with that course.\n\nIt's very well received. The material is constantly evolving. And we also, Tom and I, just kind of revamped slightly, added a a a wrinkle into our workplace violence program. And what that is is we don't teach active shooter to cops. What we do is we'll go to a local government and teach the civilian staff on on how to respond and and what what is the best thing you can do to survive that event.\n\nWe added a a stop to bleed aspect to that, and we also offer the NeoGup platform that Tom had alluded to pertaining to, all those classes. There's almost four a little over 400 course offerings to to where agencies can kinda go in and and do those classes while while they're working. And another course that we're we're excited about and that we're hoping to to roll out here in the summer is, we we've created due to those those EPL losses that we we keep mentioning, a course that helps new and emerging law enforcement leaders understand the intricacies of dealing with personnel and, you know, the firing, hiring, and all of those things. And and it was kind of a hole that we recognized, and the course really isn't offered in the state. So we we viewed it as, you know, going back to how do you do these these research and things like that.\n\nWe we feel like this is something with our supervisors and leadership getting younger, that institutional knowledge not being passed on. You know, we're hoping to kinda fill that void with a course offering like this. And then we're also, we're looking and developing I know the lead at some point in the near future will be updating the website, and we're hoping to create, like, a, almost like a new chief's landing page to where in there they'll have copies of, you know, if get some, best practice policies, you know, contact information for our chief's advisory board. We'll have some training and and just kinda make it like a like, almost like a virtual toolbox for them to be able to access from their computer.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: And then, speaking of the chief's advisory board, we're also, going to be adding a almost like a mentorship program to that. So to where we have our 13 chiefs who are our our pillars and, you know, they are our long time, members of the board. We and they were all very excited about this idea of adding about two positions to that for new chiefs.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 2: So that way they can shadow that group, build relationships, build resources, and and, you know, a year or so, and then they can come off in a new chief and kinda come on. So just kinda offering as much as we can to, like like I said, provide as many resources and tools for for new chiefs to to understand that they are not alone, and we are here to help.\n\nSpeaker 1: And, Ben, I would add that, you know, the programs and the training offerings, you know, would really be a challenge for most agencies to to put on with their existing training budgets. The the good news is these these offerings do not cost our members anything additional. Just that's the value of being part of the league's insurance pools.\n\nSpeaker 0: Super important.\n\nSpeaker 1: We we would we would rather invest on the front end and keep that claim from happening or making the agency more defensible than this to, you know, suffer the loss on the other side, you know, with with the member. So we're protecting that individual pool member, but, collectively, we're protecting the entire pool, which is also very important to the individual pool members. So, you know, these are these are great resources. And again, they don't they don't cost a thing to those agencies that are members of our pools.\n\nSpeaker 2: You know, with the risk review, the one thing that and I apologize. I had not mentioned this yet. With with the successful completion of the risk review, you know, because Tom had mentioned, you know, the financial burden that police departments are under. With the successful completion, the the the town is eligible for a 15%, credit or reduction in their overall, pool of police liability coverage. So, you know, that it's a it's a strong talking point for a chief to go to their town administrator and be like, hey.\n\nLook. I saved x amount of dollars. Is it possible I can kinda shift that towards some training or some other things? So the money doesn't come back to us. It it stays within them, and they can kinda use it to their advantage if if they're kinda trying to get a new program, a new piece of equipment.\n\nAnd then we also have our, our grants that we offer through there. So we have our soft body armor grants to where an agency is eligible for up to 10, 10 vests of $250 a piece. And, you know, again, it's just another resource for an officer, and it's freezing the members of the pool. So we we we just we encourage to reach out and\n\nSpeaker 0: This is not an extra cost. And further, it could it could save an agency money. And when, you know, one has helped kind of you know, everybody's helped in a way. And, you know, so so we we hit this from a variety of angles. I, you know, I I believe Tom, I I can't remember who mentioned this, but, the sort of, like, changing, evolving nature of, police agencies or maybe turnover, there may be, you know, institutional knowledge that kinda goes away with retirements or, but we have I I, I know this just from an observer is that, you know, we work with, some great institutional knowledge.\n\nI believe you mentioned, Gerald Tucano, who, he's he's fairly nationally known as a like, a a use of force expert, as far as I know. I feel I feel like I've seen his name cited in, like, you know, mainstream media articles about, you know, just just certain things that happen out there in law enforcement. And so, you know, we work with a lot of really great institutional knowledge and and brainpower to help save the the the agency from a bad day, but also, you know, you you could save money and, you know, just all kinds of good things can come from this. So so, for anyone listening to this, I I think we do a good job, communicating what is, available to to members, to police chiefs, to to to agencies. But, you know, just just to cover it, how how do we get connected with an agency to, you know, how is that relationship formed to where we work with them on any of these?\n\nYou know, how do how do they reach us to get more information? You know, just get what's the communication like that municipalities might need to to hear?\n\nSpeaker 2: Part of that communication, I guess, the first layer that I need would be, you know, why Tom and I are so heavily involved in law enforcement right now, and we're so plugged in to these statewide organizations. I I try as often as I can to get to the CJ commissions and and see our police chiefs and and just kinda remained as engaged as I can, go to the Chiefs Association regional meetings and kind of use that as a conduit to continue to kind of say the same things that we're saying on here to these Chiefs who may or may not have a chance to to have met us. But, you know, all of our resources and and and everything that we had discussed is is on our website. You know how to how to get those those balls rolling if you wanted to, if you had more questions or contact information and things like that, it's also on there. Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: And I'll add, you know, we we do the typical outreach and, you know, and, again, those associations are very important. But I think one thing that that makes us a little bit different is that me and Joe see the importance of those individual relationships with the leadership of our of our members. So, you know, there's not a whole lot of police chiefs that doesn't that don't have my cell phone and and same thing with Joe. So they are very comfortable just calling us direct with an issue or a problem or, you know, what resources we can levy for them. So, you know, we we look at every mechanism to make those relationships develop and and let the communication flow.\n\nSpeaker 0: So, you know, we we we do have a close relationship. I I see we meaning the the league and and the work you do. There is a close relationship with the, the the stakeholders. And, you know, having good relationships is just good on its face. But is there anything Right.\n\nSpeaker 1: Is there\n\nSpeaker 0: anything you wanna say about what we have seen as far as, you know, pos positives progress, maybe some positive trends or, you know, slowdowns on some bad things that we were I I I put bad in quotes, but just, you know, the things that we design our programs for to, you know, prevent that bad day. Are are we preventing those bad days? Or are we seeing that?\n\nSpeaker 2: So I think the true metric to determine whether or not you better pretend that bad day, you may not never know. It's just because it didn't happen. Yeah. But I I will say that the relationships that we've mentioned, kind of that three pronged between the Chiefs, training standards and and with us, that messaging that we've been all beating that drum, I wanna say, probably for almost a year now at this point. I have seen an uptick in agencies that are interested in the risk review that want to engage in the risk review.\n\nWe've got just about 200 agencies involved right now with a little over 70 that are completed. So that trend is going up, and it's not going down because I think as time goes on, more and more people are seeing the value in in adhering to these standards.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And, Ben, I would add to that. I've definitely seen some policies and practices and and and operations that we were able to identify some issues that that could have definitely led to some failures, and even the chiefs at the time recognized that they weren't aware that that that was potentially a landmine that we were able to identify and help them to address. And, so the the positive part of this is, you know, for example, once an agency completes that risk review, which is a comprehensive list of categories and areas of some of the higher liabilities of concern, once they complete that, you know, yes, they get the premium reduction and the benefits of that. But like Joe just said, it it's the things that are not happening that that's the biggest benefit.\n\nIf that risk review prevents one crash, that's a win. If it prevents one injury that we'll never get to know about, that's another win.\n\nSpeaker 0: For sure.\n\nSpeaker 1: But, you know, part of that process is we we, we recognize the agency and the leadership and the accomplishment to their city council in a live meeting and, you know, help with the press releases. And we we want to to give a positive message to the community and the and the elected officials that your agency truly cares about how they police within the community and and that they are hearing the best practices. So it's a powerful message, and it's one that's needed, you know, right now probably more than ever before.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. That that's a great point. You know, like, one incident can cost a lot. And to, you know, have a a better structure and framework to where, you know, that those incidents don't really have the room to happen because you're doing something else that is preventative is is massive and and untold and, you know, the the savings that can create.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. And I'll go back to Joe's example with handcuffing. You know, it's a very simple process, but it's a process repeated many, many times in officer's career. And there's totally a right way to do it, which includes, you know, double locking and checking for tightness. But then another best practice is to document that in the arrest sheet or the report.\n\nJust one extra sentence, you know, because there might be a claim of real injury or fabricated injury. But if you can if you can document and demonstrate that this officer followed the policy and the best practices because he it's actually in the arrest report, that's huge when there's a lawsuit or a claim. And those little claims nationally are typically around 25 to $30,000 each.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wow.\n\nSpeaker 1: And that's a that's not a small check to write over simply just not adding a sentence to an arrest report.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right. Right. That that's money you might wanna put toward, you know, I mean, staff or, you know, just you you\n\nSpeaker 1: mean you can More training.\n\nSpeaker 0: That's yeah. It's it's a big blank that you can fill and and and training and things like that that, you know, make the picture even better. I mean, it's just that these opportunities are are created, and that's that's super important. Joe and Tom, I mean, just your your your background is it's it's it's deep on the subject, and I know there's a lot you've seen just, you know, in your time in law enforcement directly and now working with law enforcement agencies and and public safety. I mean, there's there there's a lot of data you see.\n\nThere's a lot of stuff happening out there. And there are probably, I would bet, more episodes that we could do together to discuss some of these interesting things that come up. I mean, the the more we can do that, you know, the kind of the the the better in terms of just kind of adding to the the the mission of self awareness and discussion and conversation about these topics. So I really appreciate your expertise. And, if if anybody, you know, needs to, make contact with us or reach out to us in some way regarding the information we talked about, how do they how do they do that?\n\nSpeaker 2: So, again, on on our website, you go under the shield services, or they can email me at jgraziano@nclm.org, and, I'll get back to them pretty quickly.\n\nSpeaker 1: And then the same here, my contacts on the website, and my email is tanderson@nclm.org.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank you so much for listening to Municipal Equation, where we talk about things that happen in the space of cities and towns from the planning department to parks to legal to law enforcement to arts and everything else. We're either always looking for new ways to deal with or talk about or are just confronting or encountering for the first time. I want this podcast to be a place of idea sharing and the kind of conversation where you can glean all kinds of things that might fit or relate to what's happening in your city or town. North Carolina has more than 540 of them, and there's a lot of variety, but also a lot of common things that we face. So in that spirit, if there's a subject in the space of cities and towns that you think would make for a good episode of Municipal Equation, email me, ben brown, bbrown@nclm.org.\n\nAgain, that is bbrown@nclm.org. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast and all sorts of services and activities and info for municipalities online at nclm.0rg. Check us out, stay in touch, and we'll be back soon with another episode of Municipal Equation.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns.", "start": 4.0, "end": 10.0199995 }, { "text": "Welcome to another episode of Municipal Equation from the NC League of Municipalities.", "start": 19.324999, "end": 23.265 }, { "text": "I'm your host, Ben Brown.", "start": 23.965, "end": 25.425 }, { "text": "Now this podcast has been around since 2016.", "start": 25.485, "end": 28.064999 }, { "text": "And in that time, we've covered law enforcement issues plenty of times from different angles, including topics like recruitment and retention and ways to improve standing with the general public during tense times and things like that.", "start": 28.56, "end": 40.335 } ], "start": 4.0, "end": 40.335, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But today, I want to look a little bit more at at what we at the League of Municipalities do with police issues and what we see from the data we collect and the kind of work we do in response to it.", "start": 40.415, "end": 50.355 }, { "text": "With all the standards in place and training and so on, do we really need to add layers of careful protection for better outcomes in law enforcement?", "start": 50.415, "end": 58.07 }, { "text": "Well, it's a dynamic line of work, so always.", "start": 58.21, "end": 61.35 }, { "text": "And we have a number of programs sort of geared in that spirit.", "start": 61.89, "end": 65.11 }, { "text": "For example, one that you'll hear mentioned here is the law enforcement risk review.", "start": 65.33, "end": 69.11 } ], "start": 40.415, "end": 69.11, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's a free program from the NC League of Municipalities, free for North Carolina Municipal Police Departments, designed to assess a police department's adherence to best practices, court decisions, and policies and procedures related to high liability activities in law enforcement.", "start": 69.395004, "end": 83.255005 }, { "text": "And the goal is to mitigate liability exposures, enhance officer safety, and validate that training and operating procedures meet industry standards.", "start": 83.43, "end": 90.65 }, { "text": "Again, it is free for members of the NC League's property and casualty trust.", "start": 90.87, "end": 94.81 }, { "text": "So that's one thing we do at the League to help law enforcement agencies, and I wanna talk about this stuff more in context, the kind of work we do, but also why.", "start": 95.270004, "end": 103.235 }, { "text": "Like, what what's a liability or risk issue we've seen?", "start": 103.455, "end": 106.255 } ], "start": 69.395004, "end": 106.255, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What have we noticed about, say, handcuffing that might need a closer look?", "start": 106.255, "end": 110.755 }, { "text": "Just one example.", "start": 111.055, "end": 111.955 }, { "text": "Today, we're talking to Tom Anderson and Joe Graziano.", "start": 112.14, "end": 114.56 }, { "text": "They both work at the League of Municipalities.", "start": 115.02, "end": 116.64 }, { "text": "Tom is director of risk control and public safety risk management, and Joe is our public safety risk management consultant.", "start": 117.1, "end": 123.28 } ], "start": 106.255, "end": 123.28, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They are not outsiders to law enforcement as a career.", "start": 123.659996, "end": 126.56 }, { "text": "We're gonna start off learning a bit more about them and why they do what they do.", "start": 126.755005, "end": 130.615 }, { "text": "Joe and Tom, thank you guys so much for coming on.", "start": 137.395, "end": 140.05501 }, { "text": "I wanna learn more, but before we kinda get more deeply into the the subject of, you know, something like risk management and law enforcement and risk reduction and things like that, what, I I wanna learn more about you and your your histories and kinda why you're here at the League of Municipalities.", "start": 140.355, "end": 157.48999 }, { "text": "I'll start with you, Tom.", "start": 159.315, "end": 160.535 } ], "start": 123.659996, "end": 160.535, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What does what what's your relationship to law enforcement?", "start": 160.675, "end": 164.535 }, { "text": "Like, why why are you in this position at the league?", "start": 164.595, "end": 166.99501 }, { "text": "What's your what what's your background and, you know, kind of what what connects you to the law enforcement community?", "start": 166.99501, "end": 172.13501 } ], "start": 160.675, "end": 172.13501, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 172.82, "end": 173.14 }, { "text": "Thank you, Dan.", "start": 173.46, "end": 174.18 }, { "text": "I appreciate, you spending the time to do this.", "start": 174.18, "end": 177.16 }, { "text": "You know, like a lot of our field staff, I have a lot of municipal experience, in my background.", "start": 177.54, "end": 182.68 }, { "text": "And I came to the league in 2015 from the city of Statesville, and that's where I spent the majority of my law enforcement career starting back in 1992.", "start": 182.82, "end": 192.175 } ], "start": 172.82, "end": 192.175, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And like a lot of officers, I started at the patrol officer level working in a variety of capacities and probably some of the better parts of my year my my years at Statesville was, about six years in investigations, three as an investigator, and the last three as the supervisor of that team.", "start": 192.715, "end": 213.28 }, { "text": "And then probably the most, fun I had in my agency was the twelve years on our department's tactical team serving as a team member, the team leader for a few years, and then lastly as the team commander.", "start": 213.605, "end": 224.185 }, { "text": "Love the training, love the officers I got to work with, and just the the mission of that team.", "start": 225.28499, "end": 230.39 }, { "text": "Parallel to that, I rose to the ranks Mhmm.", "start": 231.09, "end": 233.57 }, { "text": "Of my agency spending the last seven years as the police chief.", "start": 233.73, "end": 237.03 } ], "start": 192.715, "end": 237.03, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I was I was very fortunate to have a great department, a supportive manager, had a great mayor and council, and that's, you know, that's a good place to be as a police chief.", "start": 237.41, "end": 246.705 }, { "text": "However, in 2015, great things happened.", "start": 247.24501, "end": 250.52501 }, { "text": "The league was recruiting for a police chief to become the league's first public safety risk management consultant.", "start": 250.52501, "end": 256.225 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 256.525, "end": 256.845 }, { "text": "And I did a lot of research on that, and it sounded like a great opportunity for me personally, not just to grow my career path, but to also be able to, you know, invest back in the profession that had literally given me such a great career.", "start": 256.845, "end": 270.09 } ], "start": 237.41, "end": 270.09, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it was a it was a great opportunity for me personally and professionally.", "start": 270.09, "end": 275.235 }, { "text": "So, you know, in thinking about that, the job itself allows you to work with agencies across the state.", "start": 275.935, "end": 281.155 }, { "text": "And, you know, what really keyed me in on was, you know, in identifying and developing best practices, to help develop programs and resources to better the profession, from a big picture standpoint.", "start": 281.53497, "end": 295.08 }, { "text": "And that was that was really the motivation as to why I applied and competed for the position.", "start": 295.08, "end": 300.13998 }, { "text": "So 2015, I went through the interview process, was offered the position, fortunately, and I accepted.", "start": 300.68, "end": 308.365 } ], "start": 270.09, "end": 308.365, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The hardest part, and I would say the most difficult part of the process, was notifying my manager and my department, and then I individually went to each of my each of my council members.", "start": 308.745, "end": 318.87003 }, { "text": "And that was the toughest part of it.", "start": 318.87003, "end": 320.47 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 320.47, "end": 320.97 }, { "text": "I then went, into a reserve capacity with my agency, spent a couple of years, as a reserve officer to maintain my certifications.", "start": 322.39, "end": 329.77002 }, { "text": "And then around 2019, I totally separated from Statesville, moved my certification to the North Carolina Department of Insurance's criminal investigations division, got sworn in as a special agent part time.", "start": 330.07, "end": 343.475 } ], "start": 308.745, "end": 343.475, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 343.475, "end": 343.89 }, { "text": "And I help them with their firearms training and their in service training and whatever they need just to hold my certification.", "start": 343.97, "end": 349.75 }, { "text": "So coming to the league, we hit the ground running.", "start": 351.41, "end": 353.75 }, { "text": "And I was fortunate that, Brian Lillard, who is now our executive director, prior to me coming, he put together, the league's first chief's advisory committee, really the first in the nation for a a league or a insurance pool Right.", "start": 354.21002, "end": 370.78998 }, { "text": "To develop such a capacity.", "start": 370.94998, "end": 372.72998 } ], "start": 343.475, "end": 372.72998, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But this group is made up from 12 chiefs from across the state representing different municipalities and sizes and geographies, and they were very instrumental in working with me to develop a lot of the programs that Joe's gonna discuss here shortly.", "start": 372.78998, "end": 387.33502 }, { "text": "So and I you know, on a personal note, I gotta tell you that coming to the league was probably more than I hoped it would be.", "start": 387.875, "end": 395.415 }, { "text": "And and in saying that, I've Joe will tell you, I've been eligible to retire for several years, but I truly love what we do.", "start": 395.715, "end": 404.4 }, { "text": "I I really enjoy our mission, the things that we get to do working with local governments across North Carolina, things that really matter.", "start": 404.4, "end": 412.1 }, { "text": "And this is a leadership organization, and that's important to me.", "start": 412.685, "end": 416.38498 } ], "start": 372.78998, "end": 416.38498, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I worked as a public safety consultant up until 2019 and then promoted, to the director of loss control field services and public safety.", "start": 417.72498, "end": 427.345 }, { "text": "And in that capacity, I work with a a team of leaders, including Joe.", "start": 428.01, "end": 432.03 }, { "text": "That team includes the public safety position that Joe has, two HR professionals, and three other general risk management members.", "start": 432.88998, "end": 441.69 }, { "text": "And we we address risk management concerns across the state.", "start": 441.69, "end": 445.455 }, { "text": "And I when I say that, it's the full spectrum of municipal risk management.", "start": 445.455, "end": 449.615 } ], "start": 417.72498, "end": 449.615, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Everything from public works to the city manager's office and everything in between.", "start": 449.615, "end": 454.115 }, { "text": "There's a a lot of liabilities and a lot of things that lead to claims and lawsuits, injuries, deaths, and, you know, that's it's our job to help keep those things from happening.", "start": 454.83, "end": 464.77 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 464.91, "end": 465.38998 }, { "text": "And, that's what keeps me and Joe coming back to work every day and loving what we do.", "start": 465.38998, "end": 470.505 } ], "start": 449.615, "end": 470.505, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, yeah, I I definitely wanna talk a little bit more about what your work looks like in action, you know, when when you apply what you know and what you do, what what what's what's happening out there?", "start": 470.905, "end": 480.265 }, { "text": "And I wanna talk about that.", "start": 480.265, "end": 481.805 }, { "text": "Joe, could you kinda give the same, kind kind of, outline that Tom gave, as it applies to you?", "start": 482.75998, "end": 490.44 }, { "text": "You know, what what's, what what's your connection to law enforcement, and how did that bring you to, what you do at the league?", "start": 490.44, "end": 496.06 } ], "start": 470.905, "end": 496.06, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 497.07498, "end": 497.235 }, { "text": "I'd appreciate I'd I'd love to.", "start": 497.235, "end": 499.07498 }, { "text": "Again, like Thomas said, thanks for having us, Ben.", "start": 499.315, "end": 501.735 }, { "text": "The messages that we're we're trying to to share across the state can definitely, through resources such as this, help help share and answer some questions that people may have.", "start": 502.35498, "end": 511.02 }, { "text": "But to answer your your question, so I started my career back in, 2003.", "start": 511.18, "end": 517.1 } ], "start": 497.07498, "end": 517.1, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I worked up north and for a transportation authority.", "start": 517.1, "end": 520.0 }, { "text": "Spent the first seventeen and a half years of my career there working.", "start": 520.3, "end": 523.2 }, { "text": "We ran through Camden and, Philadelphia.", "start": 523.5, "end": 525.83997 }, { "text": "I relocated to North Carolina in 2017.", "start": 527.155, "end": 529.895 }, { "text": "I had a short stint at a local sheriff's department before, I was scooped away to go to Wrightsville Beach.", "start": 530.835, "end": 536.775 } ], "start": 517.1, "end": 536.775, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I spent the majority of my law enforcement time in North Carolina at Wrightsville Beach to where I rose through the ranks, and I, was the captain of support services.", "start": 537.55505, "end": 546.54 }, { "text": "While I was there, I was fortunate enough to, get nominated to attend the FBI National Academy.", "start": 546.6, "end": 551.9 }, { "text": "We were class number two seventy nine.", "start": 552.625, "end": 554.565 }, { "text": "And I I learned through the NA that, we're only as strong as our our our networking.", "start": 555.58496, "end": 562.46497 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 562.46497, "end": 562.785 } ], "start": 537.55505, "end": 562.785, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nobody can do this job alone.", "start": 562.785, "end": 564.305 } ], "start": 562.785, "end": 564.305, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 564.305, "end": 564.545 } ], "start": 564.305, "end": 564.545, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I'll kind of lead back into that here in a minute.", "start": 564.545, "end": 567.185 }, { "text": "And so so after when I was at the Bristol Beach Police Department, I was working with the state in the creation of the, data accreditation program and just realizing, you know, how much law enforcement in this state is is trending in the direction of of doing better and and hearing to best practices.", "start": 567.185, "end": 586.66504 }, { "text": "So fast forward a little bit.", "start": 587.045, "end": 588.585 }, { "text": "I was lucky enough to get the opportunity, and I left Riceville Beach, and I was one of the two deputy directors at, training standards, which is the criminal justice training standards division.", "start": 589.125, "end": 600.18 }, { "text": "Michelle Schilling, my my my colleague, who was the other deputy director, she was over in service training, the field staff, basically all in service and the, the schools and the colleges and everything.", "start": 601.52, "end": 613.585 } ], "start": 564.545, "end": 613.585, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and my my side of the house, I was responsible for investigations and, certifications.", "start": 613.585, "end": 619.445 }, { "text": "So the certifications would consist of DAC, juvenile justice, all law enforcement company and campus police, and and and learning and understanding the the nuances of the North Carolina Administrative Code, really kind of bought to the forefront of how everything was working together with everyone at Wrightsville Beach and, you know, through the different associations of what we were trying to achieve and how difficult of a time it is right now in policing when it comes to recruiting, which is a whole other episode we can get into.", "start": 619.585, "end": 650.305 }, { "text": "But so what during my time there, I helped in pushing the state accreditation to the finish line.", "start": 650.305, "end": 657.445 }, { "text": "Karen Ashley, who and I work very closely together still, director Smythe, you'll hear us throughout the state speaking of how the CJ program of state accreditation and the risk review program through the league work together like a hand in a glove.", "start": 658.19995, "end": 673.1 }, { "text": "They are built to work in unison, to help municipalities throughout the state, kinda increase their professional standards.", "start": 673.455, "end": 681.135 } ], "start": 613.585, "end": 681.135, "num_words": 184.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And there's tremendous amount of resources right now to help the smaller agencies who may not have the financial means to to get to that finish line.", "start": 681.135, "end": 689.17 }, { "text": "So", "start": 690.11, "end": 690.35 } ], "start": 681.135, "end": 690.35, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 690.75, "end": 690.91003 } ], "start": 690.75, "end": 690.91003, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "During my time at the state, about eight months ago, give or take, an opportunity presented itself here at the league, which was essentially the the icing on the cake when it came to kind of my my journey here in North Carolina because as as much as I was enjoying my work at the state, I really felt that I would have much more of an impact locally with local government and on the municipal side of things, with the offerings that we give our towns and and cities through the shield services.", "start": 691.07, "end": 724.41003 }, { "text": "So I currently serve on the North Carolina Police Execs Association as one of the, their, and their sergeant of arms.", "start": 725.11005, "end": 733.735 }, { "text": "I served on the North Carolina National Academy Board, for a few years, and, you know, we work very closely with the North Carolina Chiefs of Police Association.", "start": 734.27496, "end": 746.21497 }, { "text": "So we we've feel wholeheartedly that between the league, the Chiefs Association, as well as CJ that, you know, there's a strong unified front for all leaders and local government, you know, to to try to help them kind of find their way and navigate, you know, any issues that may be arising because, you know, I I'm still currently sworn in the state.", "start": 746.51495, "end": 768.215 } ], "start": 691.07, "end": 768.215, "num_words": 207.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 768.215, "end": 768.615 }, { "text": "I I care about the profession.", "start": 768.615, "end": 770.155 }, { "text": "We want to see people succeed.", "start": 770.215, "end": 771.995 }, { "text": "We wanna we wanna be considered a resource and an ally.", "start": 772.455, "end": 776.24 }, { "text": "You know, we're gonna be in the fight with with them.", "start": 776.24, "end": 778.58 } ], "start": 768.215, "end": 778.58, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If they're involved in a bad day, we wanna make sure that they're well prepared.", "start": 779.04004, "end": 782.5 }, { "text": "So, you know, through through resources and things like this and offerings and that we'll get into in a little bit here.", "start": 782.96, "end": 788.66003 }, { "text": "But Mhmm.", "start": 789.195, "end": 789.79504 }, { "text": "That's kinda me in a nutshell.", "start": 789.995, "end": 791.275 }, { "text": "Maybe a big nutshell.", "start": 791.275, "end": 792.315 } ], "start": 779.04004, "end": 792.315, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But", "start": 792.315, "end": 792.815 } ], "start": 792.315, "end": 792.815, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, I I appreciate it.", "start": 794.075, "end": 795.03503 }, { "text": "I mean, so so hearing from from both of you, it's it's a solid, law enforcement and public safety background with municipal experience.", "start": 795.03503, "end": 802.97504 }, { "text": "And and that that's just to say, you know, the the the positions you hold aren't just because you happen to have, you know, good leadership skills.", "start": 803.115, "end": 809.08 }, { "text": "It's you know, this is direct, you know, experience in, in the field for for a a long time.", "start": 809.08, "end": 814.62 }, { "text": "And I I wanna talk about some of the things that spur you guys into action and your your current positions with the league.", "start": 815.0, "end": 821.14496 } ], "start": 794.075, "end": 821.14496, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Joe, you'd mentioned, you know, sometimes a bad day happens.", "start": 821.445, "end": 824.40497 }, { "text": "I mean, that's that's true for every industry, every line of work, everybody, but, you know, that that would have to include law enforcement.", "start": 824.40497, "end": 831.445 }, { "text": "And that that kinda brings about discussions of, you know, risk management, risk control.", "start": 831.445, "end": 836.07 }, { "text": "And I'm not a an expert in those fields, but to me, risk management and risk control, things like that means kind of observing what's going on out there, looking at the data, look at look at the things that are brought to our attention and trying our best to observe what's out there so we can be prepared for what might happen in the future and maybe prevent some of those bad days.", "start": 836.07, "end": 857.105 }, { "text": "That's risk management and risk control to me, and that entails following the data of what's already happened.", "start": 857.40497, "end": 862.74005 } ], "start": 821.445, "end": 862.74005, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Is is that kind of a fair way to to to say it, or is that too general?", "start": 862.74005, "end": 866.9 } ], "start": 862.74005, "end": 866.9, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "No.", "start": 866.9, "end": 867.14 }, { "text": "I think no.", "start": 867.14, "end": 868.02 }, { "text": "I think that's a perfect way of capturing it.", "start": 868.02, "end": 869.86005 }, { "text": "So, you know, I'll give you an example.", "start": 869.86005, "end": 872.18005 }, { "text": "So one of the standards in the risk review talks about handcuffing.", "start": 872.18005, "end": 875.0 } ], "start": 866.9, "end": 875.0, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So things that are, you know, it's a coin phrase from Lexipol.", "start": 876.095, "end": 880.035 }, { "text": "So I I will not own it, but it's one that's widely known.", "start": 880.255, "end": 882.995 }, { "text": "You know, if it's predictable, it's preventable.", "start": 883.21497, "end": 885.235 }, { "text": "So, I mean, things in law enforcement for the most part, you can predict the outcome if you don't do them properly.", "start": 885.375, "end": 890.995 }, { "text": "So one of the standards talks about handcuffing.", "start": 891.39996, "end": 894.14 } ], "start": 876.095, "end": 894.14, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So do your policies adhere to best practice?", "start": 894.92, "end": 897.16 }, { "text": "Do you double do you double lock them and check them for tightness?", "start": 897.16, "end": 900.06 }, { "text": "And do you memorialize that within the narrative of an arrest report?", "start": 900.2, "end": 904.06 }, { "text": "And what does that do?", "start": 904.12, "end": 905.385 }, { "text": "That protects an officer and an agency if an individual turns around, two, three weeks from now or two, three days and complains of wrist pain.", "start": 905.705, "end": 914.505 } ], "start": 894.92, "end": 914.505, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Because if you have no way to defend your actions, it's it's kinda he said, she said.", "start": 914.505, "end": 919.465 } ], "start": 914.505, "end": 919.465, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 919.465, "end": 919.89 } ], "start": 919.465, "end": 919.89, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and some of those claims are they're quick and they're expensive.", "start": 920.05, "end": 923.83 }, { "text": "So just taking something as simple as the process of handcuffing somebody and then just putting one or two lines in within your narrative of a police report can help protect you in that aspect of things.", "start": 924.21, "end": 934.29004 }, { "text": "So I I think your your definition is is spot on.", "start": 934.29004, "end": 937.175 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 937.315, "end": 937.555 }, { "text": "And and it and it grows in terms of, you know, depending on what you're thinking of.", "start": 937.555, "end": 941.795 } ], "start": 920.05, "end": 941.795, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If you're looking at pursuits, you know, as we are all well aware of, North Carolina is increasing rapidly in population.", "start": 941.795, "end": 948.855 }, { "text": "So in the thinking of chasing them until the wheels fall off, you you know, that's how you still operate.", "start": 950.32996, "end": 955.93 }, { "text": "You know, you have to kind of rethink things.", "start": 955.93, "end": 958.02997 }, { "text": "You know, why are you chasing people?", "start": 958.64996, "end": 960.25 }, { "text": "What are you chasing them for?", "start": 960.25, "end": 961.44995 } ], "start": 941.795, "end": 961.44995, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Does the risk outweigh the reward?", "start": 961.44995, "end": 963.14996 }, { "text": "So, you know, those are all things that you can implement and put in the policy to kinda lower your your overall risk on a daily basis.", "start": 963.29, "end": 970.795 } ], "start": 961.44995, "end": 970.795, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So so how is that, responsibly done in terms of identifying what, you know, what the problems are, what maybe just kind of an anomaly versus something that might be an ongoing issue?", "start": 971.65497, "end": 981.97003 }, { "text": "I I think you mentioned, the risk review when when you were speaking there a minute ago.", "start": 981.97003, "end": 987.11005 }, { "text": "So so that's that's a program that we offer that kinda speaks to this kind of thing.", "start": 987.41003, "end": 991.815 }, { "text": "Is is that correct?", "start": 991.815, "end": 992.795 } ], "start": 971.65497, "end": 992.795, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yes.", "start": 993.97504, "end": 994.375 }, { "text": "So the first part of your question, so we have our internal metrics, related to claims and things like that to where we can track on frequency and severity.", "start": 994.375, "end": 1003.275 }, { "text": "And, you know, if an agency is having repeat claims, you know, there's something, you know, probably awry that we can discuss and and try to get to the root source of.", "start": 1004.07, "end": 1013.43 }, { "text": "Maybe it's a policy thing, maybe it's a procedure thing.", "start": 1013.43, "end": 1016.01 }, { "text": "And if it's just a one off thing, we'll still have that same conversation.", "start": 1016.595, "end": 1019.975 } ], "start": 993.97504, "end": 1019.975, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1020.27496, "end": 1020.675 } ], "start": 1020.27496, "end": 1020.675, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But in in regards to the risk review, so our risk review that that Tom had alluded to with that he and Brian helped create, Mhmm.", "start": 1020.675, "end": 1029.5801 }, { "text": "It is is so it was utilized as the foundation of the the standards within the state accreditation.", "start": 1029.66, "end": 1035.12 }, { "text": "So that kinda goes back to why we have that message of everything is is like a hand in a glove.", "start": 1035.26, "end": 1040.8601 }, { "text": "But so it's a it's 42 standards, that focuses on the high risk, high liability aspects of running a voice department.", "start": 1040.8601, "end": 1047.985 }, { "text": "And it's a it's a comprehensive dive into an agency's policies and procedures.", "start": 1048.605, "end": 1052.705 } ], "start": 1020.675, "end": 1052.705, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, if there's things that are missing, we'll work with them to kinda add language and help them kinda adhere to best practices.", "start": 1053.645, "end": 1059.27 }, { "text": "And I'll give you an example.", "start": 1059.73, "end": 1061.03 }, { "text": "So, they Tom had created a driver's evaluation tool with the assistance of our chief's advisory committee.", "start": 1061.09, "end": 1068.31 }, { "text": "And not to bore you with, like, what field training day in and day out consists of.", "start": 1068.77, "end": 1074.685 }, { "text": "So if you're training an officer, you know, there's observed behaviors and things like that, you're you're supposed to fill out what's called the field training, DOR, daily observation report.", "start": 1075.0651, "end": 1083.885 } ], "start": 1053.645, "end": 1083.885, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And one of those things is how are they driving one through five.", "start": 1084.48, "end": 1088.2599 }, { "text": "Three, four, you know, is acceptable.", "start": 1089.2, "end": 1091.1399 }, { "text": "Five is, you know, they can drive a race car.", "start": 1091.2, "end": 1093.1199 }, { "text": "But", "start": 1093.1199, "end": 1093.2799 } ], "start": 1084.48, "end": 1093.2799, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1093.7599, "end": 1093.8799 } ], "start": 1093.7599, "end": 1093.8799, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "With the driver's evaluation tool that we offer and and help agencies with is okay, so how did they get that three?", "start": 1094.0, "end": 1100.765 }, { "text": "It's about a three page document.", "start": 1100.765, "end": 1102.945 }, { "text": "So it goes into their their stopping, their breaking, and basically how they are as a driver.", "start": 1103.005, "end": 1108.285 }, { "text": "So implementing things like that into your field training or having your supervisors ride along with their squad, you know, quarterly just to make sure that they are indeed driving as best as they can and they're not distracted by their cell phone, the MDT, and all the things that they have in their vehicle.", "start": 1108.285, "end": 1124.51 }, { "text": "So it's just little nuances that will work with an agency to to ensure that the things that they're doing are best practice to help truly lower their their risk.", "start": 1124.8899, "end": 1134.705 } ], "start": 1094.0, "end": 1134.705, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'll just add that, you know, the risk review is just a it's a toolbox for, you know, police leaders to utilize to help protect their people and and their their properties and their assets.", "start": 1134.9249, "end": 1145.36 }, { "text": "And one thing that I think helped me as a police chief early on was that I recognized that I was the risk manager for my agency.", "start": 1145.82, "end": 1155.12 }, { "text": "And, you know, a lot of people hear risk management, they think, oh, that's what you that's who you contact when you get hurt.", "start": 1155.705, "end": 1161.465 }, { "text": "And you you fill out the claims paperwork.", "start": 1161.465, "end": 1163.385 }, { "text": "Well, actually, that's claims management.", "start": 1163.385, "end": 1165.225 } ], "start": 1134.9249, "end": 1165.225, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's something different.", "start": 1165.225, "end": 1166.2849 }, { "text": "You know, risk management is about being proactive.", "start": 1166.585, "end": 1169.45 }, { "text": "It's about protecting your people.", "start": 1169.51, "end": 1171.19 }, { "text": "It's about it's a leadership tool.", "start": 1171.19, "end": 1172.89 }, { "text": "You know, risk management cannot exist without leadership and vice versa.", "start": 1173.19, "end": 1177.9099 } ], "start": 1165.225, "end": 1177.9099, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You can't be a successful leader without taking care of your people.", "start": 1177.9099, "end": 1180.89 }, { "text": "So Right.", "start": 1181.135, "end": 1181.6951 }, { "text": "You know, it's a it's a happy marriage of concepts.", "start": 1181.775, "end": 1184.435 }, { "text": "But, you know, as a as a police chief, as I matured in that role, I realized I wasn't the only risk management in my agency.", "start": 1185.6151, "end": 1193.3151 }, { "text": "The line officer, the newest officer we hire is a risk manager of, you know, their persons and their things and their properties.", "start": 1193.97, "end": 1201.35 } ], "start": 1177.9099, "end": 1201.35, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's a it's a concept.", "start": 1201.89, "end": 1203.73 }, { "text": "It's a philosophy.", "start": 1203.73, "end": 1204.63 }, { "text": "It's a it's a leadership way of of work life.", "start": 1204.69, "end": 1208.95 }, { "text": "And so the things that we're talking about today are just some of the tools that you as the leader use.", "start": 1209.635, "end": 1213.735 }, { "text": "And, and I think Joe's done a good job already of highlighting some of those some of those items.", "start": 1214.195, "end": 1219.735 } ], "start": 1201.89, "end": 1219.735, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and, Ben, if I if I could just kinda build on that, you know, with with Tom referencing it being a leadership, which, I a 100% agree.", "start": 1220.2749, "end": 1229.49 }, { "text": "But the one thing that we're we're seeing is that, connected to staffing and retirements and, you know, it's it's a weird time right now in law enforcement to where you have a lot of that institutional knowledge that Tom speaks of and a leadership capacity that is leaving.", "start": 1229.63, "end": 1247.115 }, { "text": "So, you know, again, I'll keep saying it, resources such as this, you know, a lot of newer chiefs, they're they're not familiar with what is available to them to help them succeed.", "start": 1247.76, "end": 1256.8201 }, { "text": "So we we want to ensure that they are aware that whether it's us through the Chiefs Association or through, the state accreditation program, like, we have several tools at your disposal to help make sure that you're protecting yourself, your municipality, and your people.", "start": 1257.36, "end": 1274.505 } ], "start": 1220.2749, "end": 1274.505, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I definitely wanna talk about some more, offerings that we have, things you oversee that that can be helpful to police chiefs or law enforcement agencies or to municipalities in general.", "start": 1275.67, "end": 1286.01 }, { "text": "I wanna talk a little bit more about the the risk review.", "start": 1286.47, "end": 1289.03 }, { "text": "And forgive me if you already answered this, but is this something where do you do you look at data and go to an agency, a a a police department?", "start": 1289.03, "end": 1298.665 }, { "text": "Or is this something where they reach out to us and say, like, hey.", "start": 1298.725, "end": 1301.525 }, { "text": "We we wanna, you know, have some more maybe up to date self awareness as it comes to our policies.", "start": 1301.525, "end": 1307.3501 } ], "start": 1275.67, "end": 1307.3501, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Could you guys help us out with that?", "start": 1307.7301, "end": 1309.01 }, { "text": "Is it how does the risk review work in in that regard?", "start": 1309.01, "end": 1312.2101 }, { "text": "And are there any common things that are maybe common concerns or things that tend to come up?", "start": 1312.2101, "end": 1318.215 }, { "text": "Not to apply these to every police agency, but are there common things that seem to come up?", "start": 1318.455, "end": 1322.5549 } ], "start": 1307.7301, "end": 1322.5549, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So the first part of your question is it's a cop out here, and I'll say it's a little bit of both.", "start": 1323.1749, "end": 1328.5549 }, { "text": "Some agencies are aware of the program.", "start": 1328.9349, "end": 1330.695 }, { "text": "They'll reach out, and we'll set up a site visit and initial meeting, kind of go through the requirements to to succeed through that, and then they're off to the races.", "start": 1330.695, "end": 1339.96 }, { "text": "And if you want, I I can dive into what that exactly looks like.", "start": 1340.58, "end": 1343.46 }, { "text": "But then the other aspect of it is if we have an agency that, that we're seeing a pattern with the same things, then we will make a conscious effort to reach out and have those same conversations to try to get them out of the starting gates to to kinda adhere to some better practices and policies if they need to.", "start": 1343.46, "end": 1362.305 } ], "start": 1323.1749, "end": 1362.305, "num_words": 136.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So related to the trends, some things that we're seeing now or some initial things that may be of a challenge would probably be a better answer to start with would be a lot of smaller agencies Have challenges with the buildings that they're utilizing for a police department in further evidence, to where they may have limited space and limited capacity.", "start": 1362.75, "end": 1385.465 }, { "text": "And, you know, one one of the points within the standard for the evidence is that you're you're separating your high risk items.", "start": 1386.005, "end": 1392.49 }, { "text": "So guns, drugs, money, they're not packaged with your generalized evidence.", "start": 1392.49, "end": 1396.73 }, { "text": "So some agencies have a challenging time.", "start": 1396.73, "end": 1399.79 }, { "text": "You know, sometimes they need money, which we I'll get into the safety grants if you'd like.", "start": 1399.85, "end": 1404.01 } ], "start": 1362.75, "end": 1404.01, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, there there are means to kind of navigate that, pursuits and use of force are other big ones.", "start": 1404.01, "end": 1409.575 }, { "text": "And another one, that we've seen an uptick of recently is our EPL claims, just kind of handling, personnel and and discipline.", "start": 1409.715, "end": 1418.375 }, { "text": "So those would be probably the top four.", "start": 1418.515, "end": 1421.1749 }, { "text": "But, Tom, did you have anything you wanted to add?", "start": 1421.86, "end": 1424.36 } ], "start": 1404.01, "end": 1424.36, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah, I think being supervisory training is also something that we see is lacking in consistency across the state, with small and larger agencies simply because of the staff turnover.", "start": 1424.8999, "end": 1436.36 }, { "text": "And, you you know, at one time, and I think back to the early nineties, there were generations of officers with staggered retirement.", "start": 1436.6599, "end": 1443.505 }, { "text": "So if I was a new sergeant, I had a very veteran lieutenant who answered to a very veteran assistant chief.", "start": 1443.5651, "end": 1451.985 }, { "text": "We literally have agencies now where every ranked position is a new position.", "start": 1452.28, "end": 1457.02 }, { "text": "So you you have a a rookie lieutenant with a rookie patrol sergeant with rookie patrol officers, and you don't have that staggered experience.", "start": 1457.24, "end": 1466.5951 } ], "start": 1424.8999, "end": 1466.5951, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that succession planning or that succession benefit from the generational, you know, learning opportunities is not there like it used to be.", "start": 1466.5951, "end": 1476.675 }, { "text": "And what we're seeing happen as a result is that, you know, some agencies are promoting officers to those leadership positions prior to even having training for those positions.", "start": 1476.675, "end": 1488.67 }, { "text": "So part of the risk review is we address supervisory training and what that looks like.", "start": 1488.97, "end": 1493.6901 }, { "text": "And for agencies that are struggling with that, we provide some of those learning resources just to just to help fill those gaps.", "start": 1493.6901, "end": 1501.475 }, { "text": "Because one of the things that we know is that if there's an incident or a claim or a lawsuit, you know, the plaintiff's attorneys, you know, they look at the agency with a microscope.", "start": 1502.175, "end": 1512.18 } ], "start": 1466.5951, "end": 1512.18, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They look at the policies.", "start": 1512.4, "end": 1513.54 }, { "text": "They look at the training.", "start": 1513.6001, "end": 1514.7401 }, { "text": "And trying to make a connection between the bad event and a lack of training is a is a very common tool because they're trying to attach, you know, the that claim or lawsuit to the bigger checkbook, which is the municipality.", "start": 1515.12, "end": 1528.565 }, { "text": "And to do that, you've got to you've got to find that relationship.", "start": 1528.865, "end": 1532.165 }, { "text": "So, you know, what me and Joe were trying to do is cancel out those relationships.", "start": 1532.705, "end": 1538.5399 } ], "start": 1512.4, "end": 1538.5399, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1539.4, "end": 1539.7999 }, { "text": "We're trying to fill those fill those voids and and, again, making that department more defensible and therefore more successful successful.", "start": 1539.7999, "end": 1547.6599 } ], "start": 1539.4, "end": 1547.6599, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So you", "start": 1549.0249, "end": 1549.3049 } ], "start": 1549.0249, "end": 1549.3049, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "you had mentioned, some other services we have to, help maybe new police chiefs or, just agencies that maybe want some refreshers or and we have something, at the League of Municipalities called shield services.", "start": 1549.3049, "end": 1562.325 }, { "text": "And I believe we also we we offer courses that, law enforcement can attend.", "start": 1562.3849, "end": 1567.37 }, { "text": "Joe, I think you mentioned DPL, which is is that employment practices liability.", "start": 1568.79, "end": 1573.05 }, { "text": "Am I saying that right?", "start": 1573.1901, "end": 1574.31 }, { "text": "So so I yeah.", "start": 1574.31, "end": 1575.27 } ], "start": 1549.3049, "end": 1575.27, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We we have a a variety of things within law enforcement that we, you know, we reach out to informed by a lot of the data that we look at.", "start": 1575.27, "end": 1581.635 }, { "text": "Why do we offer a certain class that we offer?", "start": 1581.6951, "end": 1583.875 }, { "text": "But could could we talk about some of those other things that that we, that that we offer to, law enforcement agencies at the municipal level?", "start": 1584.5751, "end": 1592.1951 } ], "start": 1575.27, "end": 1592.1951, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1592.92, "end": 1593.16 }, { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 1593.16, "end": 1593.66 }, { "text": "So the shield services, menu is is growing, and it's it's growing because we want to provide more.", "start": 1594.92, "end": 1602.62 }, { "text": "More is better.", "start": 1603.08, "end": 1603.98 }, { "text": "So the the biggest piece of that pie that we had already discussed is the risk review.", "start": 1604.28, "end": 1608.375 } ], "start": 1592.92, "end": 1608.375, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1608.375, "end": 1608.875 } ], "start": 1608.375, "end": 1608.875, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If working your kind of way through that, we have one of our use of force instructor is Gerald Tucana.", "start": 1609.5751, "end": 1615.415 }, { "text": "He teaches an advanced use of force course that he he designs specific for your agency.", "start": 1615.415, "end": 1621.11 }, { "text": "So if you wanted to focus on supervisors or patrol line, I mean, he he he'll custom make that course, and he goes to your agency or and he also has our, our simulator that if you wanna kinda add that layer into that training.", "start": 1621.9701, "end": 1636.815 }, { "text": "And and he does a fantastic job helping an officer break down use of force to be able to make the a smart effective decision.", "start": 1637.195, "end": 1646.56 }, { "text": "We also offer our slower is faster course, which is currently held once a year.", "start": 1648.06, "end": 1652.72 } ], "start": 1609.5751, "end": 1652.72, "num_words": 121.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's, where we bring in professional drivers to help.", "start": 1653.26, "end": 1657.12 }, { "text": "It's a train the trainer so agencies can send one of their better drivers or their instructors to the to the school and they could take back, the tools to add to that toolbox we keep mentioning and help their agency kind of learn new driving behaviors.", "start": 1657.355, "end": 1670.255 }, { "text": "We also offer well, we're looking into creating a a next evolution into that through some of our our partners that we work with throughout the state.", "start": 1671.115, "end": 1679.97 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1679.97, "end": 1680.29 }, { "text": "So because we need more driving, not less.", "start": 1680.29, "end": 1682.55 } ], "start": 1653.26, "end": 1682.55, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's just kinda trying to find the the time and and the resources related to agencies being able to to provide bodies right now.", "start": 1682.93, "end": 1689.5449 }, { "text": "We also offer, the the dangerous crossroads course taught by Scott McClatsky.", "start": 1690.005, "end": 1694.825 }, { "text": "This is a very popular class.", "start": 1695.5249, "end": 1696.885 }, { "text": "It's, it's the intersection of the first and fourth amendments and and talks about, you know, citizens right to record, law enforcement behavior in public spaces.", "start": 1696.885, "end": 1704.96 }, { "text": "And he he he does a phenomenal job with that course.", "start": 1704.96, "end": 1708.4 } ], "start": 1682.93, "end": 1708.4, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's very well received.", "start": 1708.4, "end": 1709.62 }, { "text": "The material is constantly evolving.", "start": 1709.68, "end": 1711.62 }, { "text": "And we also, Tom and I, just kind of revamped slightly, added a a a wrinkle into our workplace violence program.", "start": 1712.32, "end": 1722.495 }, { "text": "And what that is is we don't teach active shooter to cops.", "start": 1722.715, "end": 1727.195 }, { "text": "What we do is we'll go to a local government and teach the civilian staff on on how to respond and and what what is the best thing you can do to survive that event.", "start": 1727.195, "end": 1738.0 } ], "start": 1708.4, "end": 1738.0, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We added a a stop to bleed aspect to that, and we also offer the NeoGup platform that Tom had alluded to pertaining to, all those classes.", "start": 1738.0, "end": 1749.8049 }, { "text": "There's almost four a little over 400 course offerings to to where agencies can kinda go in and and do those classes while while they're working.", "start": 1749.8049, "end": 1756.625 }, { "text": "And another course that we're we're excited about and that we're hoping to to roll out here in the summer is, we we've created due to those those EPL losses that we we keep mentioning, a course that helps new and emerging law enforcement leaders understand the intricacies of dealing with personnel and, you know, the firing, hiring, and all of those things.", "start": 1757.165, "end": 1780.015 }, { "text": "And and it was kind of a hole that we recognized, and the course really isn't offered in the state.", "start": 1780.015, "end": 1786.595 }, { "text": "So we we viewed it as, you know, going back to how do you do these these research and things like that.", "start": 1786.88, "end": 1791.2001 } ], "start": 1738.0, "end": 1791.2001, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We we feel like this is something with our supervisors and leadership getting younger, that institutional knowledge not being passed on.", "start": 1791.2001, "end": 1800.0801 }, { "text": "You know, we're hoping to kinda fill that void with a course offering like this.", "start": 1800.0801, "end": 1804.3651 }, { "text": "And then we're also, we're looking and developing I know the lead at some point in the near future will be updating the website, and we're hoping to create, like, a, almost like a new chief's landing page to where in there they'll have copies of, you know, if get some, best practice policies, you know, contact information for our chief's advisory board.", "start": 1804.905, "end": 1827.82 }, { "text": "We'll have some training and and just kinda make it like a like, almost like a virtual toolbox for them to be able to access from their computer.", "start": 1828.115, "end": 1834.295 } ], "start": 1791.2001, "end": 1834.295, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1834.355, "end": 1834.855 } ], "start": 1834.355, "end": 1834.855, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then, speaking of the chief's advisory board, we're also, going to be adding a almost like a mentorship program to that.", "start": 1834.995, "end": 1844.99 }, { "text": "So to where we have our 13 chiefs who are our our pillars and, you know, they are our long time, members of the board.", "start": 1844.99, "end": 1852.05 }, { "text": "We and they were all very excited about this idea of adding about two positions to that for new chiefs.", "start": 1852.67, "end": 1858.575 } ], "start": 1834.995, "end": 1858.575, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1858.735, "end": 1858.975 } ], "start": 1858.735, "end": 1858.975, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that way they can shadow that group, build relationships, build resources, and and, you know, a year or so, and then they can come off in a new chief and kinda come on.", "start": 1858.975, "end": 1868.255 }, { "text": "So just kinda offering as much as we can to, like like I said, provide as many resources and tools for for new chiefs to to understand that they are not alone, and we are here to help.", "start": 1868.255, "end": 1879.52 } ], "start": 1858.975, "end": 1879.52, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, Ben, I would add that, you know, the programs and the training offerings, you know, would really be a challenge for most agencies to to put on with their existing training budgets.", "start": 1880.06, "end": 1890.725 }, { "text": "The the good news is these these offerings do not cost our members anything additional.", "start": 1890.725, "end": 1897.065 }, { "text": "Just that's the value of being part of the league's insurance pools.", "start": 1897.205, "end": 1900.485 } ], "start": 1880.06, "end": 1900.485, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Super important.", "start": 1900.485, "end": 1901.165 } ], "start": 1900.485, "end": 1901.165, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We we would we would rather invest on the front end and keep that claim from happening or making the agency more defensible than this to, you know, suffer the loss on the other side, you know, with with the member.", "start": 1901.165, "end": 1913.44 }, { "text": "So we're protecting that individual pool member, but, collectively, we're protecting the entire pool, which is also very important to the individual pool members.", "start": 1913.74, "end": 1922.045 }, { "text": "So, you know, these are these are great resources.", "start": 1923.145, "end": 1925.145 }, { "text": "And again, they don't they don't cost a thing to those agencies that are members of our pools.", "start": 1925.145, "end": 1929.245 } ], "start": 1901.165, "end": 1929.245, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, with the risk review, the one thing that and I apologize.", "start": 1929.385, "end": 1932.4701 }, { "text": "I had not mentioned this yet.", "start": 1932.4701, "end": 1933.67 }, { "text": "With with the successful completion of the risk review, you know, because Tom had mentioned, you know, the financial burden that police departments are under.", "start": 1933.67, "end": 1941.61 }, { "text": "With the successful completion, the the the town is eligible for a 15%, credit or reduction in their overall, pool of police liability coverage.", "start": 1942.39, "end": 1954.125 }, { "text": "So, you know, that it's a it's a strong talking point for a chief to go to their town administrator and be like, hey.", "start": 1954.125, "end": 1959.085 } ], "start": 1929.385, "end": 1959.085, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Look.", "start": 1959.085, "end": 1959.325 }, { "text": "I saved x amount of dollars.", "start": 1959.325, "end": 1960.71 }, { "text": "Is it possible I can kinda shift that towards some training or some other things?", "start": 1960.95, "end": 1964.1499 }, { "text": "So the money doesn't come back to us.", "start": 1964.1499, "end": 1966.47 }, { "text": "It it stays within them, and they can kinda use it to their advantage if if they're kinda trying to get a new program, a new piece of equipment.", "start": 1966.47, "end": 1973.83 } ], "start": 1959.085, "end": 1973.83, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then we also have our, our grants that we offer through there.", "start": 1973.83, "end": 1977.275 }, { "text": "So we have our soft body armor grants to where an agency is eligible for up to 10, 10 vests of $250 a piece.", "start": 1977.275, "end": 1985.135 }, { "text": "And, you know, again, it's just another resource for an officer, and it's freezing the members of the pool.", "start": 1985.835, "end": 1990.235 }, { "text": "So we we we just we encourage to reach out and", "start": 1990.235, "end": 1994.53 } ], "start": 1973.83, "end": 1994.53, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is not an extra cost.", "start": 1994.85, "end": 1996.61 }, { "text": "And further, it could it could save an agency money.", "start": 1996.61, "end": 1999.65 }, { "text": "And when, you know, one has helped kind of you know, everybody's helped in a way.", "start": 1999.65, "end": 2003.83 }, { "text": "And, you know, so so we we hit this from a variety of angles.", "start": 2004.805, "end": 2008.245 }, { "text": "I, you know, I I believe Tom, I I can't remember who mentioned this, but, the sort of, like, changing, evolving nature of, police agencies or maybe turnover, there may be, you know, institutional knowledge that kinda goes away with retirements or, but we have I I, I know this just from an observer is that, you know, we work with, some great institutional knowledge.", "start": 2008.245, "end": 2031.37 } ], "start": 1994.85, "end": 2031.37, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I believe you mentioned, Gerald Tucano, who, he's he's fairly nationally known as a like, a a use of force expert, as far as I know.", "start": 2031.37, "end": 2040.105 }, { "text": "I feel I feel like I've seen his name cited in, like, you know, mainstream media articles about, you know, just just certain things that happen out there in law enforcement.", "start": 2040.105, "end": 2047.625 }, { "text": "And so, you know, we work with a lot of really great institutional knowledge and and brainpower to help save the the the agency from a bad day, but also, you know, you you could save money and, you know, just all kinds of good things can come from this.", "start": 2047.625, "end": 2062.215 }, { "text": "So so, for anyone listening to this, I I think we do a good job, communicating what is, available to to members, to police chiefs, to to to agencies.", "start": 2062.215, "end": 2072.235 }, { "text": "But, you know, just just to cover it, how how do we get connected with an agency to, you know, how is that relationship formed to where we work with them on any of these?", "start": 2072.375, "end": 2081.77 } ], "start": 2031.37, "end": 2081.77, "num_words": 171.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, how do how do they reach us to get more information?", "start": 2081.77, "end": 2084.1301 }, { "text": "You know, just get what's the communication like that municipalities might need to to hear?", "start": 2084.1301, "end": 2088.51 } ], "start": 2081.77, "end": 2088.51, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Part of that communication, I guess, the first layer that I need would be, you know, why Tom and I are so heavily involved in law enforcement right now, and we're so plugged in to these statewide organizations.", "start": 2088.6848, "end": 2101.505 }, { "text": "I I try as often as I can to get to the CJ commissions and and see our police chiefs and and just kinda remained as engaged as I can, go to the Chiefs Association regional meetings and kind of use that as a conduit to continue to kind of say the same things that we're saying on here to these Chiefs who may or may not have a chance to to have met us.", "start": 2102.76, "end": 2123.575 }, { "text": "But, you know, all of our resources and and and everything that we had discussed is is on our website.", "start": 2123.575, "end": 2128.2349 }, { "text": "You know how to how to get those those balls rolling if you wanted to, if you had more questions or contact information and things like that, it's also on there.", "start": 2128.535, "end": 2134.91 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 2134.91, "end": 2135.41 } ], "start": 2088.6848, "end": 2135.41, "num_words": 165.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I'll add, you know, we we do the typical outreach and, you know, and, again, those associations are very important.", "start": 2135.55, "end": 2142.75 }, { "text": "But I think one thing that that makes us a little bit different is that me and Joe see the importance of those individual relationships with the leadership of our of our members.", "start": 2142.75, "end": 2154.085 }, { "text": "So, you know, there's not a whole lot of police chiefs that doesn't that don't have my cell phone and and same thing with Joe.", "start": 2154.625, "end": 2161.6401 }, { "text": "So they are very comfortable just calling us direct with an issue or a problem or, you know, what resources we can levy for them.", "start": 2161.6401, "end": 2169.6602 }, { "text": "So, you know, we we look at every mechanism to make those relationships develop and and let the communication flow.", "start": 2169.8801, "end": 2178.915 } ], "start": 2135.55, "end": 2178.915, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, you know, we we we do have a close relationship.", "start": 2179.615, "end": 2182.435 }, { "text": "I I see we meaning the the league and and the work you do.", "start": 2182.495, "end": 2185.5352 }, { "text": "There is a close relationship with the, the the stakeholders.", "start": 2185.5352, "end": 2188.97 }, { "text": "And, you know, having good relationships is just good on its face.", "start": 2189.35, "end": 2192.23 }, { "text": "But is there anything Right.", "start": 2192.23, "end": 2193.91 } ], "start": 2179.615, "end": 2193.91, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Is there", "start": 2193.99, "end": 2194.23 } ], "start": 2193.99, "end": 2194.23, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "anything you wanna say about what we have seen as far as, you know, pos positives progress, maybe some positive trends or, you know, slowdowns on some bad things that we were I I I put bad in quotes, but just, you know, the things that we design our programs for to, you know, prevent that bad day.", "start": 2194.23, "end": 2210.5952 }, { "text": "Are are we preventing those bad days?", "start": 2210.5952, "end": 2212.1152 }, { "text": "Or are we seeing that?", "start": 2212.1152, "end": 2213.2551 } ], "start": 2194.23, "end": 2213.2551, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think the true metric to determine whether or not you better pretend that bad day, you may not never know.", "start": 2213.67, "end": 2218.79 }, { "text": "It's just because it didn't happen.", "start": 2218.79, "end": 2220.0898 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2220.15, "end": 2220.63 }, { "text": "But I I will say that the relationships that we've mentioned, kind of that three pronged between the Chiefs, training standards and and with us, that messaging that we've been all beating that drum, I wanna say, probably for almost a year now at this point.", "start": 2220.63, "end": 2236.085 }, { "text": "I have seen an uptick in agencies that are interested in the risk review that want to engage in the risk review.", "start": 2236.945, "end": 2243.205 } ], "start": 2213.67, "end": 2243.205, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We've got just about 200 agencies involved right now with a little over 70 that are completed.", "start": 2243.47, "end": 2249.07 }, { "text": "So that trend is going up, and it's not going down because I think as time goes on, more and more people are seeing the value in in adhering to these standards.", "start": 2249.07, "end": 2258.53 } ], "start": 2243.47, "end": 2258.53, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2258.975, "end": 2259.055 }, { "text": "And, Ben, I would add to that.", "start": 2259.055, "end": 2260.335 }, { "text": "I've definitely seen some policies and practices and and and operations that we were able to identify some issues that that could have definitely led to some failures, and even the chiefs at the time recognized that they weren't aware that that that was potentially a landmine that we were able to identify and help them to address.", "start": 2262.415, "end": 2285.26 }, { "text": "And, so the the positive part of this is, you know, for example, once an agency completes that risk review, which is a comprehensive list of categories and areas of some of the higher liabilities of concern, once they complete that, you know, yes, they get the premium reduction and the benefits of that.", "start": 2285.7998, "end": 2304.4402 }, { "text": "But like Joe just said, it it's the things that are not happening that that's the biggest benefit.", "start": 2304.74, "end": 2309.72 } ], "start": 2258.975, "end": 2309.72, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If that risk review prevents one crash, that's a win.", "start": 2310.1, "end": 2313.0 }, { "text": "If it prevents one injury that we'll never get to know about, that's another win.", "start": 2313.125, "end": 2316.805 } ], "start": 2310.1, "end": 2316.805, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For sure.", "start": 2316.805, "end": 2317.3647 } ], "start": 2316.805, "end": 2317.3647, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, you know, part of that process is we we, we recognize the agency and the leadership and the accomplishment to their city council in a live meeting and, you know, help with the press releases.", "start": 2317.3647, "end": 2330.57 }, { "text": "And we we want to to give a positive message to the community and the and the elected officials that your agency truly cares about how they police within the community and and that they are hearing the best practices.", "start": 2330.57, "end": 2343.23 }, { "text": "So it's a powerful message, and it's one that's needed, you know, right now probably more than ever before.", "start": 2343.895, "end": 2348.955 } ], "start": 2317.3647, "end": 2348.955, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2349.3352, "end": 2349.5752 }, { "text": "That that's a great point.", "start": 2349.5752, "end": 2350.5352 }, { "text": "You know, like, one incident can cost a lot.", "start": 2350.5352, "end": 2353.435 }, { "text": "And to, you know, have a a better structure and framework to where, you know, that those incidents don't really have the room to happen because you're doing something else that is preventative is is massive and and untold and, you know, the the savings that can create.", "start": 2353.735, "end": 2369.54 } ], "start": 2349.3352, "end": 2369.54, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 2369.92, "end": 2370.24 }, { "text": "And I'll go back to Joe's example with handcuffing.", "start": 2370.24, "end": 2372.42 }, { "text": "You know, it's a very simple process, but it's a process repeated many, many times in officer's career.", "start": 2372.855, "end": 2378.395 }, { "text": "And there's totally a right way to do it, which includes, you know, double locking and checking for tightness.", "start": 2378.6948, "end": 2384.795 }, { "text": "But then another best practice is to document that in the arrest sheet or the report.", "start": 2385.1748, "end": 2389.89 } ], "start": 2369.92, "end": 2389.89, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Just one extra sentence, you know, because there might be a claim of real injury or fabricated injury.", "start": 2389.89, "end": 2397.59 }, { "text": "But if you can if you can document and demonstrate that this officer followed the policy and the best practices because he it's actually in the arrest report, that's huge when there's a lawsuit or a claim.", "start": 2397.81, "end": 2408.335 }, { "text": "And those little claims nationally are typically around 25 to $30,000 each.", "start": 2408.335, "end": 2414.4148 } ], "start": 2389.89, "end": 2414.4148, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wow.", "start": 2414.4148, "end": 2414.9148 } ], "start": 2414.4148, "end": 2414.9148, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that's a that's not a small check to write over simply just not adding a sentence to an arrest report.", "start": 2415.02, "end": 2421.68 } ], "start": 2415.02, "end": 2421.68, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 2421.8198, "end": 2422.3198 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 2422.78, "end": 2423.0999 }, { "text": "That that's money you might wanna put toward, you know, I mean, staff or, you know, just you you", "start": 2423.0999, "end": 2428.6199 } ], "start": 2421.8198, "end": 2428.6199, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "mean you can More training.", "start": 2428.6199, "end": 2430.665 } ], "start": 2428.6199, "end": 2430.665, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's yeah.", "start": 2430.665, "end": 2431.225 }, { "text": "It's it's a big blank that you can fill and and and training and things like that that, you know, make the picture even better.", "start": 2431.225, "end": 2438.5051 }, { "text": "I mean, it's just that these opportunities are are created, and that's that's super important.", "start": 2438.5051, "end": 2442.525 }, { "text": "Joe and Tom, I mean, just your your your background is it's it's it's deep on the subject, and I know there's a lot you've seen just, you know, in your time in law enforcement directly and now working with law enforcement agencies and and public safety.", "start": 2443.04, "end": 2457.83 }, { "text": "I mean, there's there there's a lot of data you see.", "start": 2457.83, "end": 2460.375 } ], "start": 2430.665, "end": 2460.375, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There's a lot of stuff happening out there.", "start": 2460.375, "end": 2462.5552 }, { "text": "And there are probably, I would bet, more episodes that we could do together to discuss some of these interesting things that come up.", "start": 2462.7751, "end": 2469.495 }, { "text": "I mean, the the more we can do that, you know, the kind of the the the better in terms of just kind of adding to the the the mission of self awareness and discussion and conversation about these topics.", "start": 2469.495, "end": 2479.63 }, { "text": "So I really appreciate your expertise.", "start": 2479.63, "end": 2481.89 }, { "text": "And, if if anybody, you know, needs to, make contact with us or reach out to us in some way regarding the information we talked about, how do they how do they do that?", "start": 2482.11, "end": 2492.945 } ], "start": 2460.375, "end": 2492.945, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, again, on on our website, you go under the shield services, or they can email me at jgraziano@nclm.org, and, I'll get back to them pretty quickly.", "start": 2493.485, "end": 2510.0 } ], "start": 2493.485, "end": 2510.0, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then the same here, my contacts on the website, and my email is tanderson@nclm.org.", "start": 2511.1802, "end": 2518.615 } ], "start": 2511.1802, "end": 2518.615, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you so much for listening to Municipal Equation, where we talk about things that happen in the space of cities and towns from the planning department to parks to legal to law enforcement to arts and everything else.", "start": 2527.795, "end": 2539.4102 }, { "text": "We're either always looking for new ways to deal with or talk about or are just confronting or encountering for the first time.", "start": 2539.4102, "end": 2545.5752 }, { "text": "I want this podcast to be a place of idea sharing and the kind of conversation where you can glean all kinds of things that might fit or relate to what's happening in your city or town.", "start": 2545.5752, "end": 2554.475 }, { "text": "North Carolina has more than 540 of them, and there's a lot of variety, but also a lot of common things that we face.", "start": 2554.5352, "end": 2561.05 }, { "text": "So in that spirit, if there's a subject in the space of cities and towns that you think would make for a good episode of Municipal Equation, email me, ben brown, bbrown@nclm.org.", "start": 2561.27, "end": 2572.365 } ], "start": 2527.795, "end": 2572.365, 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