Screw capitalism, start a cult, and burn your money ft. Jonathan Harris aka Money Burning Guy
For this episode I spoke with Jonathan Harris (@jonone100) aka Money Burning Guy who was recently featured as a panelist at the Consensus: Distributed conference on their panel Soft Money hosted by Joon Ian Wong and Annaliese Milano and was joined by Brett Scott, who was last episode's guest. Jonathan is the author of The Money Burner's Manual, the ultimate guide to how and why you should burn your money in a ritual sacrifice. In the episode we discuss and make sense of Jonathan's seemingly ...
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Transcript
Hey, everyone. Before we get started, I just wanted to mention a couple of things. One of them being the recent community posts that was made on the r/cryptoleftist subreddit. I highly recommend if right now just pause before you get into it and go to the subreddit if you use Reddit, and look for the community post. It's pinned to the top. And basically what we're doing is asking people to write just a very short blurb, just a paragraph or two even if you want, about what you personally think about the link between blockchain and socialism or left wing politics, however you wanna say. An example of one of the responses that I've already received from Fuzzgun on Twitter is this quote here. He said, in my eyes, it's an absolute travesty that Blockchain technology has been co opted by libertarian rights, ultra capitalists, and scammers. When I can see so clearly the use cases for services of democracy, public utility, and communal ownership. I see it as a technology for communities to take autonomy back that have been robbed of them by international corporations and capitalist exploitation. So, I hope that example helps you think about what you would write. It could be completely different than what I just gave or it could be something similar. However you see it. You can agree or disagree. And what we want to do is do a sort of qualitative analysis of what people say, to find trends, that we can share at a later date. But at the moment, what we really need is responses. So if you can, just check it out either right now, pause, go do it really quick. Even if you think your answer is, dumb or you don't like it or you're not you're too afraid to, you feel like you're afraid to, share, your thoughts on it, don't worry. It's totally fine. The point is just to get, at an aggregate level what the community thinks about these different ideas. And in that way, we can sort of see where we are in terms of education and see what type of things maybe we need to educate more people on or maybe things that the community has thought about that maybe I haven't already, or I haven't yet. So, if you could do that, that would be really great. You can either do it in the subreddits or if you you are part of the discord channel, you can do it on there. Or, as well, if you want on Twitter, you can direct message me. My messages are always open and that works as well. I'll make sure that your response is added to the analysis. Another thing I wanted to mention is that today, as part of my interview, with Jonathan Harris, is that I will be burning my own money, as part of, the interview. So, Jonathan leads me through a money burning exercise. And, if you want, you can hear the audio through the podcast. But if you want to hear or if you want to see, the money burning itself, there is a video that will be posted, just for patrons. So if you want to be a patron, it's only $3 a month. And with that, you get access to, patron exclusive posts. So like this video that I will be posting that happened with the, with the money burning. So it's pretty interesting to, experience and, like, see what it's like to burn money. It's a pretty strange thing because it goes against, all the sort of, economic rationalization that we're sort of ingrained with in our lives, and it's something that's interesting to see. But you can hear it through the podcast in a way, and I try to describe it the best I can. So it's no big podcast in a way, and I try to describe it the best I can. So it's no big issue if you can't. But if you do want to see the video, you can become a Patreon on patreon.com/theblockchainsocialists. It helps me support all the things that I need to do, for example, the hosting costs. So at the moment, I make less than the hosting costs that I pay for the podcast and for the website. So any amount really helps. And if this is something that, resonates with you, the message that the blog and the podcast has, then definitely, I hope you'll consider if you have the means to do so so that I can keep making, the content that I am. So with that being said, let's get started with the interview. Alright. Hello, everyone. You're listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast, and I'm here with another special guest. His name is Jonathan Harris, AKA the money burning guy and the holder of the staff. You may not know what that means at the moment, but you will in a little bit.
So hi, Jonathan. How are you doing? Hi. How you doing? How you doing? All Huddl stuff.
So, Jonathan, I sort of came upon your your profile during consensus distributed, where you had a really interesting conversation with all with a bunch of other panelists, including Brett Scott, who I talked spoke to a couple weeks ago. And, you had a lot of really interesting points. And, you know, the fact that your name was the money burning guy, I really had to know more about who this was. So as I did some research, I came upon some of the work that you've done. I have a couple of the books, or the book that you've written and, the magazine that you also helped publish, which we'll go into. But to maybe sort of preface this entire conversation, I think it's important for the audience maybe to know, what your views are on money, before we talk about why you burn it, what money is and what currency is. In your in your book, The Money Burners Manual, you talk about the difference between currency and money. So maybe that's a good place to start for, the dip what is to you the difference between currency and money?
Well, yeah. I found it a very helpful, distinction to make, for a long time. And although, do you know the so when I talk about it, I tend not to make the distinction. It if you if you if you kind of separate currency and money out in in discourse, things start to get really complicated, and and kinda stilted. But the the I I found it a really useful way to, create two conceptualizations of of the phenomena. So, essentially, I, regard currency as a kind of earthly form of money. So you can, regard money as, as something that is, divine or whichever word you wanna use, but it's it's outside the material world. And currency is the connection that we have with money. And that it's an important, it's a put important way of conceptualizing it. Obviously, most, in most conceptualizations of money, people regard money as arising from networks or from, you know, basically, from nature. They it's it's a people regard it as a as as either a kind of natural phenomenon coming out of the market or as a human invention. But my conceptualization of money places it, in in the theological realm. And although that, I think, probably sounds odd to a lot of people, it funny enough, it it has this sort these sorts of ideas that places money in a different sphere, are becoming more popular. There's a movement in, America at the moment, basically around MMT, and sort of the back thought to that. The fit there's a a theological, interest in in money now. There has been for a while, but it's it's particularly, taken hold at the moment.
MMT is a modern monetary theory. Modern monetary theory. Yeah. So,
you know, people are looking for a conception of I think, you know, that's the way people work. People look for a conception of money that that it kind of slots into their overall ideology. And, I don't think the obviously, the commodity theory of money, which tends to be that, which is, is given credence on the right, in terms of libertarianism, and certainly on the blockchain for Bitcoin. And that doesn't really work so well if you're, you know, if you're MMT or, you know, if you're kind of soft soft money person, because, it creates too many restrictions around money. So anyway, I in order to kind of float off money into this, different realm, I then had to, conceptualize currency, and I started to think about what the relationship was between currency, which is, how money is in the earthly realm, how it is in our material realm, and what the connection would be. And it I it was a I I it's been a really useful exercise. And, I mean, there is there is some, there is some, good sort of academic work around this, about our conceptions of money. There was a a nine not a ten year, academic debate, that went on outside outside economics, basically in sociology and anthropology, around this idea of, having a a a, an overall conception of money, what money means, what we mean when we say it. And the the way that ended up sorry. I'm rambling a bit. But the way that dispute ended up is one of the protagonists started to talk about the very idea of money. So that's the part of money, the very idea of money. So what is the idea of money? People tend to regard that as as its as its essence. And that's what I so when I when I talk about my this divine aspect of money, that's what I'm talking about. It's that that thing. And currency is is the is the manifestation of that. So in the state theory of money, that's, the the divine element to the state theory of money, people, is to say that we have an authority, and the authority creates the unit of account function of money. And then we through our social networks, through our sociality, we are then able to create a currency, and we are able to use this this idea of the unit of account within our relationships. Yeah. Sorry. I I've probably gone away a little bit off track there, but, yeah, it's it's it's a useful concept, and I would recommend if if you're thinking about money, definitely try and split things out, because money, you know, it's it's a it's a complex and vast phenomena. And Yeah. Have that basic, little tool that you you can split it apart just into these two things. It doesn't work it it doesn't work forever. You know what I mean? It's not like, I'm not saying it's definitely like that. There's definitely money in different countries because, you know, they are they are they're we perceive them together. Money is around money is kind of the ultimate category.
Yeah. It's Yeah. Within it. Yeah. That's what it seems like to me. I mean, there's a lot of different types of currency, but it's very it's almost like, it's a very difficult spot to get that currency into the category of money, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, you know, I I think we'll talk a little bit more about money just to to understand it because you have Very interesting ideas around it. And then later, we can talk a bit more about, how that relates to cryptocurrency. Yeah. But so in your book, you mentioned that currency was born first as a psychosexual event. There's a very interesting way, very eye catching way of of talking about currency. So I was curious if you can expand what you mean by being a psychosexual event and,
yeah, your overall how that relates to the overall theory of money. Yeah. Do you know what? When people book my book and, that's that's normally the question asked. They say, what do you mean by a psychosexual event? And I suppose, really, I mean something quite simple in the fact that I'm a I'm a heavily influenced, by psychoanalysis. And I think, you know, the first, currency or the first symbol and this is this is not, you know, I'm not alone in this thought. The the first symbol arose out of ritual, effectively. I mean, the Freudian story is the primal killing and the and the total sacrifice of animal. That firstly, the sacrifice of human beings, which became the sacrifice of animals. And this was the thing that, that created the cohesion social cohesion. And not everybody believes those stories, but but, think of the the the Christian church, and the the symbol of Jesus, on the cross. In fact, there is a there's a writer called Bloy who says that every single coin is Christ crucified. And, I can't remember the name of the, of the philosopher, but he the the the French I can't remember his name now. The French philosopher who who who thought that Christ was our first symbol. So the first, a meaningful, sort of well, I mean, there you go. You took that mean earlier. So I think that, I think so. So in terms of in terms of, currency being a psychosexual event then, it is a it is it's very simple, really. It's it's both a social event because it requires for a currency to be formed, it requires a society, it requires, a group of people. And it's it's a sexual event because that is our fundamental fundamental social dynamic. I mean, if you say that in terms of the psychoanalysis, nobody's gonna disagree with. I'm sure there might be listeners who think that that's not that's not how they see the world. But I think as a anybody who's been influenced by, you know, by by by psychoanalysis, I think that's a legitimate statement to make. So that's why I, that's why I see it like that. I see it as a and sexual is not sexual is a very broad term. It just is, you know, you could you could say life I mean Freud end up saying life force. You could say life force if you preferred. But it's something that happens in the minds and in our bodies. And it's that conjunction of those things. So between many bodies and many minds, and that's what creates currency. That's honestly, I think it's, although it seems a nice thing to say, I think it's utterly uncontroversial, you know, that the the currency is is fundamentally in its in its most pure essence, currency is a psychosexual event. And that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to get to the the nub of it, the the the the the what the most, the clearest way that I could describe what I thought currency was. And and that that's it, really. And, I I I I still see I know it sounds like I still think it's true. I just don't I can't see any other way of describing it. It's more
accurate. Is it that sort of I'm the way it sounds like to me is that there's also sort of, an effect, like there's an effect on, like, your children almost to like, money gets sort of a divine sense, as it gets passed down through generation.
Yeah.
Is that something you would you think?
I I well, I I I mean, I I can I can say that I I think money is divine in the sense I mean, it depends on your on the word divine? It's a very loaded word. Yeah. Again, people will not, you know, people have different interpretations of what I mean. But in in in essence, I mean that that money is something that exists, as as a as a prime and material. It's it's the s. It's it's, you know, it's it's deep down at a metaphysical level in the universe. It's, you know, it's it's it's beyond the atoms and and and the molecules. It's really ingrained in in what it is to be. So that's how I conceptualize it. I think that's possibly why, you know, I I the academics have, you know, it's very flattering that they're interested in my ideas, but that I think that's probably the key thing that, that differentiates the way I think about money is, like, I really put it in it. I, you know, my my the the way, that my definition my definition my definition of money was the closest I've come to a definition is to call it an aspect of being. So I regard money aspect of being and currency as a psychosexual event. And, obviously, those two things are linked because without sex, we wouldn't be, you know, as an individual human being. So, yeah, it's it's, I regard money as, as in that divine sphere. So some things that are mysterious and outside of human comprehension, but nevertheless seem to wrap around and in here with all our lives.
So in your interview, during Consensus Distributed, you had a really nice quote. You said, if the whole point of capitalism is to leave it, then what's the point of capitalism? And I thought that was, I mean, an amazing thing to say at a at a cryptocurrency type of event for one. But I think it's also a really good summary, but it really gets at the point if you're talking to someone who's maybe, skeptical of, you know, anti capitalism or, like, doesn't understand what it means to be anti capitalist. So I was curious, what your thoughts on, I guess, capitalism in general and do you consider, what what you do in terms of money burning as sort of an anti capitalist activity?
The short answer is no. I don't consider money burning an anti capitalist activity, in the sense that without capitalism, I wouldn't be able to burn money really because, you know, I think that that see, that quote for me gets to something important, which kinda gets to the question, which is the idea of function. So in a sense, you know, you're asking what is the function of capitalism. And actually, capitalism is a set of functions. So it's a set of functions that has no function. Yeah? And that, you know, that relates to money because most most people, describe money as they and they use the word just, which I hate. They say money is just a set of functions. Money is what money does. That's kind of the view, and it's it's a view that's across the payments industry and and and the crypto space a lot. And, that that I think that that that that quote about capitalism, us have written which is why it's a habit. That's a very pertinent question. And because once you get that to that line at the end of functions, it's saying, well, what is that? What is the context for this? So I I think that, certainly, money burning speaks to that in terms of the the we that it's it it puts a full stop on on those sets of functions. It's a deliberate removal, of of money from the system of flow, which makes no sense within the logic of capital. I think that's really important. So it exists outside the logic of that function. I I'd probably I'd probably go into I'd I'd probably go I'd go off into talking about money burning too much if I if I carry on down that line. But if that's what I relate it to. It's it's it's it's about the idea of function and about the idea in money burning that you are and it's I use the word it's it it the word is doing nothing. Now it's important, to understand that doing nothing is not a glib phrase. To do nothing is an impossibility. It's a it's a very loaded phrase to do nothing. But if you can do nothing, so if you can actively do nothing, which know, that's a that's a big contradiction, and that's what I'm arguing you do when you burn money is you do nothing. Then that and it's that alone, doing nothing speaks directly, to that quote, about capitalism. Yeah. Because the you know, and and all this talk about, you know, David Graeber's just talk started talking about, a work again. You really need something about work. And it's you know, we are we are trapped in this, mindset of of of work, and, being productive and efficient. And we need to think more about, you know, what this means in terms of functions and waste and why we're doing all these jobs. And and and Graber yesterday was was, you know, just yesterday that I would advise you to check it out. But he talks about he says that, the problem with, capitalism and with the fact we're destroying the planet, it has to do not with our hedonism, not with all the stuff we the crazy stuff we do, and we like to do, but with our puritanism. Mhmm. It's and and we do have a a pure I mean, the reactions to to money burning show you that this we have this, this this Puritan thing where, the idea that you waste something, you waste time or you do nothing is anathema. It's it's almost to capitalism. It's it's, it's the antithesis, of capitalism, which must be productive. There must every action you take must be entrepreneurial, and productive. And, of course, we don't live our lives like that as individuals, and people who do tend to be very unhappy.
Yeah. I mean I mean, that's sort of, I guess, for me, it it sounds very, anti capitalist because of exactly what you said. Because you it it goes against this sort of, you know, the rational actor in the economy as purely as humans being purely rational actors that want to maximize their own profits and revenues as if we're all just, like, you know, companies competing on a market. Whereas burning money is almost actively hurting your place, and it's a it's sort of defeat it it goes against
that notion that, sort of classical economics is is based on. I mean, I've I've totally described it as an opposition to capitalism and all that, and and you can find that in in my writings. So, but I think I think, I think that, ultimately, what you you I I think that, to oppose capitalism is to recognize capitalism. Yeah. And so I'm interested in, enveloping capitalism, in in the in in and I think that is that is, ultimately how, we will change from capitalism is the is the organizing principle. And I so I very much see, our problem as, you know, we have we're in a spiritual crisis fundamentally. It's it's it's the way I see it rather than rather than a political economic crisis. Yeah. I think the the solution is is a spiritual one. I don't mean we need to, you know, become one religion or another, but we we we have no we have now no no ideology that we can connect to, nothing, there's nothing outside of capitalism to, you know, to break that idea that we are in we're permanently in exchange relations as rational acts. Yeah. And yet everybody knows that that's not true, you know. I mean, we just don't act like that in our most intimate relations in the relations so it's it's an odd situation where we are confronted with the truth of it in our in our daily lives, and yet we fail to recognize it, as, you know, a social level.
Yeah. I I think that's a good transition to the next question because you mentioned as well in the book about capitalism being, a cultic religion and, like, comparing it to a cultic religion. And I think your point on, Puritanism, relates that pretty well. Because it it it feels like sometimes you have to just go through the motions of capitalism all the time just because you have to do it in, like, a puritanical sense
almost. Yeah. But I use that that's a great quote from, Nigel Dodd, whose book, he wrote in, 2014, which is called the social life of money. And it's it's a major, contribution to to to thought on money, probably one of the greatest books on money ever written in my opinion. And it's it it it, expounds, basically all the sort of various theories about money, that have been explored over the past, well, forever, you know. It contains many surprises, if, you know, because you tend to do, I mean, I studied the economic history at the LSE, and, we really didn't talk about money that much. I found it very frustrating. You you just accept what money is. It's just you don't think about it. You just get on with it. You know what I mean? Yeah. But there is this enormous thought, and Nigel's written this amazing book, which everybody everybody, if you are into money, capitalism, you know, capitalism or socialism, whichever your preference is or the crypto space, that's you must read The Social Life of Money. It's it's a it's a fantastic book. And in the end of it, he he comes up with his quote, which is based on Walter Benjamin, and he says that it's, that capitalism is a purely cultic religion. So so what he means by that is that there is no redemption at the end of it. There's nothing there's it's it's it's it's just ritual for ritual's sake. There is nothing, there's no, there's no redeeming part of it. And, you know, that that definitely feels like capitalism. You're trapped in this. It's it's certainly in in a consumer capitalism, you're trapped in this on this treadmill, which, you know, the common way of talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. And so, of course, the answer to that is is the the way the the the myself and my friends have come up with is to create a better cult. Yeah. So, yeah, we like the cult stuff. But, so when we do Church of Burnley, it's it's it's quite a culty, but I like to think of it as a conscious cult, you know.
As my next question I was about to ask you is about,
your your counter cult to capitalism, the Church of Bern. The check for the money money burning. So money burning. The the quote is money burning is capitalism's missing redemption. Yeah. Yeah. So so that's the way out. And it and it goes back to that earlier question you posed about capitalism. You know? Because the way out of capitalism is to burn money. You know? It's quite quite it's it's it's you know?
Do you suggest Jeff Bezos, burns all of his money in a big fire? So when we,
when I one of the magazines, one of my the favorite posters I did for the magazines, it says pity the rich. And I like it because, Jeff Bezos, if he wanted to burn money if he wanted to burn £20 yeah? Now I burned £20, it it hurts. You know what I mean? £20 is is is is a you know, it's it's not a huge amount, but it hurts. You know? So if if Bezos wanted to burn the equivalent of my £20, then that's a big bonfire. You know what I mean? That's gonna be a lot for him to hurt that much. You know? So, yeah, that's why you pity the rich because, unfortunately, they're kind of ruled out of, you know, by by their riches from the money burning cult. You know, it's very difficult for them. Of course, we welcome them, but, it is kind of tricky. You know? I mean, it's it's it's it's to play on the, you know, rich man through the, eye of an eagle. Yeah. Through the eye of the needle.
So that so then it's, it really sounds like burning money came out of a sort of, almost just, like, realization or or distaste of the status quo of capitalism in our daily lives. And then, you started this, or helped start this church of Bern. So I was wondering maybe you can explain what the church of Bern is and and what you guys do regarding, burning money.
With the church of Bern, I mean, it was it's kind of my favorite thing that I would I'd never imagined I would do in my life, but, we Start a religion. Yes. Start a religion. It is. That's what we're doing. You know what I mean? It's it's it's like it's it's just tremendous fun. So it is so the last I'll talk about the last one we did, which was so spectacular just before, last December, just before the COVID thing really started taking off because we had massive plans for it this year. But, unfortunately, like everything, it's, been put on hold. But, so we we, have a Synod. We had it we sat at Synod, and, we had, Vinay Gupta who is, Ethereum dude, and we had David Graver, and we had a guy called Dan Edelstein from the, Host Street Central Bank who've done this amazing, art thing of, buying up a load of payday debt and then blowing it up in a van. And and Brett Brett Scott was, your previous guest was, was, hosting this this synod. So our guests talked about how we would save the world, and that was their that was their question, how do you save the world? So we had a synod, and we we, you know, we had so the a synod, basically, is the church as a church meeting where the bishops go, and they talk about issues of doctrine. So that was our version of it. Then we had the, this is what we call the service. So we have the synod then the service, and the service is, effectively so it's, it's performances, song, hymns, about sacrifice, but to give you a flavor, a a confe includes a confessional. So you confess your money sins to our our resident goddess, Melusin, who is Okay. Twin mermaid. There's a whole story around that, but I won't but it will take a minute. What what what counts as a as a money sin? Well, that's it. Who knows? But, you know, you, you know, found £20 and you didn't give it back or whatever, you know, you, you know, overspent on something or what it could be anything you feel guilty about. You didn't pay your bill. You haven't paid, you know, anything you like. Okay. It's a money sin. And then depending on how she feels, you either get forgiven or don't get forgiven. But that was a that was a kind of fun section. And then throughout this, we have, sermons, which are, the selected readings from some of the amazing books on money, in my library. So much stuff that people, you know, who think they know about money don't know about in terms of their thinking. But people like Georges Bataille who who wrote an amazing book called The Accursed Chair, which is probably the, the the book. If you wanna understand money burning, that's the that's the book to read. It's about the the role of sacrifice in relation to sovereignty, which is the other another thing I talked about at coined us. Anyway, so back to church events. So that we have the service. And to give you an idea, so it isn't quite it's not like co faced and kinda like a church service that you'd normally think of because we round it off, before the ritual. The last act is a is a sex magic sex magic act, which was was utterly extraordinary and, definitely takes people to, the audience to a different place. What we're after with doing it, the Church of Burn is to, what I think what the theatres call it is is break the fourth wall or something. But it's effectively, it's about making the audience participants, is is crossing that line. So, you you know, there's various ways and means of doing that. So so, yeah, we we we psychologically pummel the audience into a state of, immediacy and, digestibility. And then, and then we come back in and we do the ritual, which is, we have we have a, an amazing, drone in sound that I've got called the one one one Hertz, which kinda really, fucks with your head. And, we have, like, an altar, and, you know, it it got off. It's it's it's, yeah. There was, how many people? So there was an audience of a 150. Generally, about half the people burned, and we had, about in in terms of staging it, I think we had, just about 20 people. So we had, you know, musicians and actors, and all that stuff. So it's a big it was a it was a big deal. And, yeah, it's it's an extraordinary, thing to be able to do. If anybody is ever in London when one's going on and or or wants me to come and do one, then, yeah, I'm definitely up for it. It's quite quite an amazing thing.
Yeah. It sounds like,
a very fun time. It is it did you guys just, like Yeah. It's it's fun and yeah. It's it's like a I mean, capitalism is compared to capitalism, our cult is is just is a lot more fun. It's sexier. It's, you know, it's just it really is. You're better off burning your money, honestly, than spending it. Spending it spending it's nice, but burning it's better.
Yeah. Do you so is this really, like, a organic creation of different rituals or did you take from,
I mean, there is a kind of serious story though. It's so I mean, I it's kind of like a magical thing where, I just met these these these people who were kind of, you know, we we clicked. We could the I mean, the group's called Discordianism. So I don't know if you you really do not know that. Though that was, I said, long history to get into now, but it's it's, involving people like Robert Anton Wilson and magical thinking, and and, you know, just thinking really thinking outside the box. There's a libertarian strand to it as well. The the American Discordians were very libertarian. So it's a kind of cross, cross pollinating thing. I would say most of this this sort of the wave of discordianism that's happened in The UK has got a kind of left wing bent or left wing feel to it. But it's not exclusively so, and I think that's what's so attractive about it. But anyway, I met these people and they were interested in what I was trying to do. And so we ended up doing, I ended up, so it's so there's a band called the KLF, who are discordant to the core. And I I don't know if your listeners will know them, but the KOF were they were a number one band in the world. And in 1994, they burned a million pounds on the Scottish island of Dura. This is the thing they're fay they're they're famous for, but they've had number one hits. They've had, you know they did a song with Tammy Wynette, was their biggest hit. Anyway Yeah. So the KLF, are kind of involved in many of the, around the edges of many of the the capers that we get up. Yeah. Well, I've got what I was telling you about that. But, yeah. So so they're they're kind of the king discordians. Yeah.
So, the other project that, you also work on is the magazine. So Burning Issue, I have it with me right here. I have to say it's a very beautifully printed, type of magazine, and I also have my own £23 note inside that I'm sure I will be able to spend at many different places. But maybe you can explain what the burning issue is. I mean, it's really like a magazine. I had no idea that you could write this much about burning money. I really had no idea. Just every single inch of every page is about burning money in some kind of way.
Well, I yeah. I mean, again, it started off as a kind of, the idea was, I thought I'd do a newsletter for money burner because money burners. Because I found about eight money burners in the world who were kind of doing it in any semi regular semi regular way. So I'd do a newsletter. That'd be a fun thing to do. And it it it got out of hand. And, so I I did a fanzine at first. And the I so the idea was that, it was, it was it was a magical invocation. So the idea is that you create a magazine as it you know, it's it's a build it and they will come kind of idea. So you you you create the magazine and then the the market for the magazine comes. Yeah. So, see, there aren't enough money burners, or there weren't enough money burners to warrant doing what is a a 100 was it a 168 pages or something? It's like a 160
Pretty big. Yeah. Glossy magazine with,
yeah. So it it was a major pro major task. I'm very, very proud of it. There's about 50 people involved. So I don't mind although it's my project, I don't mind bragging about it because, you know, I had, so on the academic side, but Noam, Uhren, contributed piece, Ollie Berg, and these, you know, these guys are top philosophers of money. They're brilliant people. And they were very kind. I mean, intrigued by the idea, obviously, very kind to, contribute their, the the pieces to it. And Brett Scott and Max Haven and Cassie Thornton. Again, the map professor Max is is is is a is a a a brilliant guy, and, Cassie, amazing artist. So Max, you would like Max very much if you if you're inclined to the left. So Max has just, published a book on revenge capitalism, and his theory is is is that capitalism is a big system of revenge. So yeah. So, anyway, so, lots of people from lots of different areas interested in that kind of thing. And, we were able with my friend Jonathan Greet who took a takes a lot of photos at the Church of Bern, and, my other friend, Michelle Ollie, who's, like, an had quite experience, but I because I have no experience of editing magazines, who who who knew what she was doing, fortunately. And we managed to create this thing and it it it's it's, I I hope it I hope it impressed you because, like, it did me. It's it looks it looks kinda cool,
and hopefully it's interesting as well. Yeah. No. It it it really impressed me and I I really liked,
It makes you believe going through it. Believe there are much this thing. Yes. There's something about feeling it in my hands, like That's it. Well, yeah, it's all the materiality of money as well. And, you know, obviously, in crypto and, e money and the cashless society that Brett was talking about, it's it's really important. You know? And the idea that, materiality having something that can't be captured in data, you can't, you know, you can't capture every aspect of having a relationship with something that is of a material nature, simply by functions, by replicating it digitally. And that's we need to recognize that. We need to understand that there is some other aspect of our relationship with things going on. So I think now,
maybe you can transition a bit more into the crypto world now that we understand the Jonathan Harris theory of money. So I was curious just about your thoughts because I think everyone knows us at this point, but a lot of, right wing libertarians tend to be really interested in crypto, especially in in Bitcoin world and in other cryptocurrencies, and they tend to gear towards, Austrian economics Yeah. And those sort of Austrian economic thinkers. And so I thought it was really interesting in your book, how you mentioned that a lot of economists, they act as if economics is really like a hard science similar to mathematics or physics, and that there are just parts of it that you can't, that aren't manipulable. They're just like natural phenomena. So I was curious, I mean, like, understanding that why you think it is that a lot of these types of people, in crypto tend to get interested
in this type of thinking around economics, and what sort of flaws do you see with that? Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's a natural way for somebody who's maybe, you know, the the guys that with the crypto guys obviously, technically astute. And, they, they understand the idea of writing a computer program, and they understand the notion of function. And that really that, you know, that forms a lot of the context of their thinking. So, I think that, if you can have a a a clear, a clear story around function, in money, and you you think, like I said, if you capture all the data that's present, all all the information, then you can take you create a contained story. And it does it is a coherent story, you know. So Hayek, there's many things I could criticize Hayek for. But within within the framework that he sets for himself, there is a coherence there. You know? His his his sets of ideas work within their own terms. And, funnily enough, you know, I mean, I the main thing you know, one of the things I strongly criticize Hayek for, I took quite a couple of things to be fair. Firstly, money, he he he's conceptualized of money is is is nothing. It's a really dismissal of money. Even though he wrote one of the, you know, one of the, like, he did that paper on money and everybody thought he'd gone mad when he did it, you know, that money is a product to the market. As we kind of still we were still, the Keynesian consensus was still present around then and money was a invention of the state. And even when he suggested you know, he suggested that. But but that what that does, it doesn't really, it didn't really get to the, for me, it doesn't get to the essence of money. What it does is it subsumes ideology in his theology of the markets. And, that's that's, that's where I see him. You know, there's some interesting really interesting work on, on, quick sort of critique of Hayek in terms that he's a theological fundamentally a theological thinker, and I kinda like that. He certainly didn't like psychoanalysis, so I don't like him anymore. It's not fair. He he he's he's he, you know, he people just I think it's very important to engage, with Hayek as as the, as, you know, one of the leading libertarian thinkers. Between powerful coherent arguments, and if you want to argue against him, you need to understand, what he says and think about what the weaknesses are in his arguments. And certainly for me, the major weakness is, his ideas his ideas about money. And he doesn't you know, he he thinks in that functional logical way about it without, without any idea that there's this experiential element to money, which there is.
Yeah.
So where where so sorry. I've I've gone on about high up there, but, you you were asking me about,
Right. I mean, it's it's sort of related. You know, I mean, I was I was asking about, how crypto people sort of move towards Austrian economics and, like, I I assume they probably adhere to a similar view of money as Hayek, and that sort of gets them into that. It's a really interesting thing because,
I mean, you can effectively describe the majority, I think, of, of of crypto conceptualization of money as it's basically digital gold. Yeah. And the store of value function of money is the thing they regard as as as most important. I've certainly seen this argument made a lot. So they don't really ignore the unit account. But the strange thing is, I mean, some so I for me, the unit of account function is the primary function of money. And that's that's the way it is for a lot of, people who, aren't, sort of Bitcoin enthusiasts. They tend to go for the commodity period. But the interesting thing is that in Bitcoin now for the really hard Bitcoin hardcore Bitcoin evangelists, what they want the Bitcoin to do is to replace the dollar. The dollar is the primary unit of account for the world. And so they want the dollars to be measured in Bitcoins rather than Bitcoins to be measured in dollars. You know what I mean? That's that's their ultimate gain. Yeah? Yeah. They don't wanna be they want to be the new central bank that's that's this automated system. That's Yeah. That their their vision, their their, you know, their their heaven on earth. So,
It sounds it sounds like it's frustrating.
It's frustrating because it's there's no there's you know, when you think about money, you've got to kind of, you've got to be consistent in it. And then they're not consistent in that. You're not really gonna pull it apart, and and think about this particular store of value, the unit of account function, or which one of those you think it is. How do you think that's a risk? I mean, that's where I've spent sort of the past ten years thinking about those issues. And and, you know, they it kind of gets what people seem to want in the crypto space is they want an answer to it, and then they wanna move on, because they they recognize it's a fundamental problem. You know, what what what gives value to Bitcoin? Is it because it stores value, which is also an odd kind of question, or is it because it it can ultimately act as a unit of account for the world? It's very, very important. And then and then on the other side, the the other side, it's kind of outside the Bitcoin, outside the crypto community, and the payments community. They're really concerned with the medium of exchange function of money. They don't really get into the sort of stuff I get into with the the deep psychological stuff. They they kind of think, well, you know, money's a medium exchange payments, which is is a tech money money for them is a technological problem. Yeah. They kind of, you know, gotta fit it in with the banks, with the regulations, and, and and the way people, the way people exchange, the way people interact, scams, all that sort of stuff. And you gotta find a secure system to work within that. So they don't have the ideology, of the cryptos. It's driving force, but but no none of these seem to make any sense. People seem to pick and choose which aspect of money they want to put at the core of their ideology, but then they don't follow through. Whatever is convenient. No consistency there. Yeah. And that's that's def I definitely find that frustrating. And, you know, there there the problem is as well is is is there is no there's no answer. There's no, you know, there's no truth. There's no there's no obvious truth to discover in in a scientific way. I think the truth of money relies, on your own, relationship with the divine or God or the truth or however you wanna put it. But those mystical qualities of your life, which some people would deny, and some people some people, don't like to talk about. But it but that's that's that's the point that you're governing values. So it's a it's a it's a as I said, it's a religious and spiritual thing, and you've got to make the things tally. Yeah. You've gotta make you know, because what we're in, I think, pub possibly the the the the one of the things that frustrates leftists is that they see this sort of financial logic coming out capitalism. And this everything becomes a function and gets pulled into the cult, into the machine. And and all values are destroyed. All human values are destroyed by capitalism. Yeah? And and I agree with that. I I think that's that is is something to be concerned about. But to do that, to to tackle that, you have to move outside that function. You have to be aware of the logic and how it operates. And the logic exists within finance, within money itself, in how we exchange. There's a great I'll give you one more great quote. I'll show up in a second, but I'll give you one more great quote, which directly relates to the paper, by Joachim Kalka called, on the materiality of money. And it's one I use all the time. And, I mean, it's it's relevant to Bitcoin as I definitely recommend. If you're in the crypto space, you should read it. I'll I'll give you a link to it. Sure. Because it talks about this idea that, there is something mysterious. There's something beyond, beyond our ability to cap cape check capture it in data, in our exchange, in our social exchange of money, and what it means. And the quote, is is is that the tendering of a few coins across a counter opens an abyss that reaches to the heart of the universe. And I think I I think never a truer word has been spoken than that. And that's the depth that you've got to operate at with money. And so, yeah, I I have a frustration, definitely, that that people that that that nobody really is, particularly in the crypto space, who like to pronounce on it, but nobody really thinks in-depth about money, and knows specifically that that specifically for the crypto space is that, is is that issue, that friction, between store of value and the unit of account. And they're they're the questions they're the questions they need to look at and answer. I mean, we could go into CBDC now, to be honest. Yeah. Sure. Yes. Absolutely. Because I think,
I mean, when it comes to money burning in, a normal cryptocurrency like Bitcoin or something else, you you can do that. You can burn cryptocurrencies. I think there's a couple of different ways you can do it. But usually, you can find a way to burn your cryptocurrency. But now, we have sort of what's going on is this the synthesis of, cryptocurrencies and the central banking system, where the central banks want to sort of gain the the different advantages that cryptocurrency and Blockchain is able to provide, but within their own context. So they have what's they're proposing this idea called CBDCs or Central Bank Digital Currencies. And you recently had this, petition now that you shared, asking for the Bank of England
Yeah.
To create a sort of functionality for, any holder of CBDC to be able to burn their CBDC. Yeah. So I'm curious to hear from you how how that project's been going and why is some being able to burn your CBDC, so important?
Well, yeah. I I just noticed the, the the Bank of England's, were putting out consultation paper on it, and I did think, oh, I should really I should really put my, you know, put put a letter in there. Yeah. So, I think I think, funny enough, I think in the crypto space, people will understand the idea a lot better, you know, because it I think I think probably the crypto folks regard it as, as an as sort of, an offshoot of, of the design of Bitcoin, The fact that you can you can destroy it, you know. Mhmm. It maybe wasn't wasn't put in there deliberately, but I think they recognize that it's it's, for them, it's an expression of, of the ultimate property rights. You know, you have the if you've got the right to destroy something, then then that's an expression of your property rights. Yeah. Not that's not the way I see it. In a sense, I think they're right. But I think there's a there's a bigger question, which is it's a it's sacrifice is the key thing, is the ability to sacrifice. The sacrifice ultimately is is is is is in a is in ultimate connection with sovereignty. For me, that's that's the way, I I see the world. And so, the if if you want a a currency that will allow and encourage the sovereign individual, which is exactly what, Bitcoin has won, then if you if you want a digital back cons bank currency, then however you design that currency, you must include in it the capacity for for someone to destroy it. So, yeah, I I put this idea up, and I think for those sorts for people weirdos like me who really like to think about money, it's it's a it's an interesting idea, and it's it's an obvious idea. And funny enough, I mean, the bank is always the bank that so so there in various countries, there were different laws related to burning money. But the Bank of England has never prohibited, money burning or never sought to prohibit money burning. So it's an it's totally legal to to burn money. Defacing it is, is is is illegal, but you don't really get, told off for it. So Yeah. So yeah. So, and I definitely regard it as, I mean, people regard it as a city thing, but I think it's fundamental, within the design of the currency. I mean, it's not saying that people will want to destroy their currency. And in the letter, I did argue that. I said it's not about you putting in functions that people will want their money to do. It's about what you design being money in its fullest extent. And, of course, if you want the the thing that's money in its its extent for us now is is paper cash. Yeah. And if you want to replicate paper cash in a digital form, then you've gotta be able to destroy it. Yeah? Yeah. So yeah. So, I was very, flattered to have and and various other academics, and Brett, signed the letter, and we we stuck it into the bank. We got thanked by the bank for our, interest. I think, possibly, if if it had just been, money burning guy on his own sending you a letter, they might have been able to sort of stick it in the recycling bin. But with all the other names on it, hopefully, they'll, they'll be feel like they need to respond to it. And, certainly, if they design it without the capacity. So sorry. Just so just to fill you. So Brett, Scott did a a wonderful does it has a wonderful piece in burning issue, the magazine, which considers how, it's virtually impossible to destroy, bank money. Yeah? So if you if you got money in in the bank account, the only way you can destroy it really is by taking it out in cash and burning the cash. There's no way. You you have to spend it. There's no way to destroy it. Yeah? You because you can move it between accounts. You can send it to a charity. You could you know what I mean? Well, you can't destroy it. It exists. It's like a zombie force. Yeah? It's it's just an unkillable thing. And for the suffocating, that's really fucking important. Also, I'm not stressed out.
You know? That's fine.
So yeah. So yeah. So, I I think I think, you know, fortunately, my academic friends, understand this. And, so it was it's cool. So I don't know, I don't know if Andrew Bailey because I I I was kinda hoping it'd be Carney still because I kinda like Carney. But we've got this new guy, Andrew Bailey. So, I'm I'm hopefully, he'll let I'll certainly send him a copy of the magazine if he wants to investigate further.
Do do you know if, how far along in that project they are? It seems like it's very still a bit,
early Oh, it's really early days. Yeah. It's really early days. So they've done the the the the consultation closed, like, a month ago, I think. So that's just, you know, pulling in people from the payments industry and and sort of touching base to get the feelings out out there. So I I yeah. It's, you know, it's it's a long way off. Yeah. I think China's, much more advanced, isn't it, in the in its, in its CBDC. But they won't really care about people's sovereignty, will they? They'll just do what they want. I mean, they they talk about it certainly more, and it's it's been, a lot of states have shown that China's a bit farther ahead. Cat Canada, I saw something from the Canadian Central Bank the other day, so I think they're they're a little more on the board with it. But I'm impressed with the Canadian paper. I don't know if you you you read that, but they were talking about, they were talking about competing in terms of privacy of making it a really private currency. And I just thought, who if if you want a private currency to buy a bunch of drugs or whatever, you're you're not gonna use a central bank digital currency, are you? You're gonna use Bitcoin or, you know, one of the or even one of the Cash. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, I I I'm not sure they're barking up the right tree. We're trying to make it this, like, super privacy country. Effectively, the state's gonna have access to information anyway. So
Yeah. I mean, it could just be this
sort of like, the idea of Brett Scott's around the war war on cash. Yeah. Just sort of, like, you know, make it as similar to cash as possible to reduce to sort of settle people's qualms maybe Well, yeah. In that transition. But I think that's that's right. But, you know, they always maintain that they're not gonna get rid of cash. But, I mean, I'm fully with Brett on that. We've got to kind of be very vigilant about that. And I and I always say to Brett that, you know, that's if you make cash sacred, which is what obviously what we're trying to do in the money burning, that's the best way to defend it. Mhmm. If you make it a sacrament, they can't get rid of it.
So speaking of, money being a sacrament. Yeah. I thought now would be a good chance Oh, yeah. To reveal that I will now be partaking in the, divine ritual of burning money. So what I have here,
am I allowed to take a video as I burn money or should I It's your ritual and so you you know, the rules are are yours. If you if you if you could record serial numbers for me, at the, and the amount that's £20, isn't it? If you could record the serial number before you get into your ritual, that'd be really handy because I I run a thing called the record of burn, which is, a list of all the serial numbers and people who've burnt money over the years. So I think the, I think we've got £7,000,000 now. We've we've included a few burns from the news and that sort of thing in the KLM and that. But Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So yeah. So another £20 would really would really be good.
So maybe Oh, I have two candles which I'll light.
Yes. So if you wanna I mean, what I would say to you, and anyone else who who, considers burning money is is is try to, put yourself as fully in the moment as you can. I mean, that's certainly what we tried to do with Church of Burn. It's simply a process of of of of bringing people into the now. And, that in a sense is very much, what, you know, one of the the things that money burning symbolizes because you are by burning money, you are cut cutting off a connection to the past, the value of the past, you know, money, money has a a a direct relationship with time. So, I think it's, you know, it's about feeling which, you know, standard sort of meditative exercises are just feeling your place on the world, feeling, you know, your your your bum on the seat, your chair, or your feet on the ground, your arms on the desk, feeling the material world around you, and then, pushing your pushing yourself into that moment and immersing yourself in the moment.
So I have here on top of my money burners manual and my burning issue magazine. I have, a soup bowl, which I'll leave for the burning money inside and two candles. And then I have, a £20 notes here. The serial number is BD27774521. So this will be added into the,
the ledger. Yep. That will be money. Good then.
Yeah. And, yeah. This is this is a £20 notes. Although I'm not in The UK, it's still painful because I would like to go back to The UK and I will probably have to exchange my money for pounds again, which will be annoying. So it is still a small sacrifice for me. Alright. I will try to get this here. It's curling.
Yeah. They curl. The final one is curling. Oh,
there it goes. Oh, still burning.
Oof. Oof.
There it is. Still curling in my soup bowl. You can try to burn it a little bit more.
The the polymer ones last a long time, they they they, when we changed from polymer and paper to polymer, we had to adjust our rituals.
Sucks.
They take it they they burn for ages. Yeah.
Okay. Now now it's it's caught on fire and it's, it's going. Wow. But you really like Oh, it's a nice burn. Cool. I'll send you the video.
Thank you. You like the color of the flame? It's a good one on the Polymer ones. Yeah. It's a bit,
maybe difficult to see in the video, but it is slightly different color. Wow.
How's that feel, man?
Very, I mean, like, as if I don't know. I've never partaken in any sort of sacrifice much, like, at least in this way. So it's, it's definitely a new feeling. It feels like if if if I think about, you know, the money Yeah. I mean, just the fact that everyone, including myself, have to earn money in some way in order to get by in life and pay our bills, pay our rent. And here I am just, figuring
it away. That for a moment.
Yeah.
Yeah. When it so when I do the church of Ben, I, I often say to people that the the one you know, the thing you should expect when you burn money is nothing because that's what you'll get. Yeah. That, you know
It's also making a very interesting sound. So So I will I will remember this burning the next time I go to The UK. As I'm as I'm pulling out as I'm paying for the currency exchange, I will remember this moment. It's almost out. And then here I have underneath I have the money burners manual, second edition, and the burning issue. So it was a very nice magazine from, from Jonathan. Has anyone tried burning the £23 note yet?
Oh, I don't I don't know. I don't know about that. So I think most people just kind of, leave it there. Yeah, that was that was a lot of fun, making that. I'd so I did that, and then Johnny helped me on that one, my friend Johnny. Yeah. It was it's, yeah. It's it's it's I I was proud of that. It's a nice note. And, the the there's a little quote on the note, because it's dedicated to a sex worker, called Laura Lee, who sadly, died quite young, while I was while I was doing the magazine. And, the famous, quote she had, she was she was a sex, sex worker and she was, she was a sex, workers rights activist. And so she became, in in the last few years of her life, she, put herself in the press. So she got a lot of abuse from people, and, you know, people were very mean to her. But, I I followed her on Twitter, and I found a charming woman, an intelligent and lovely. And, so when she died, it was it was, it was kinda sad. I one of those new things you experience, you know, the death of someone on social media that you don't really know, and that's something we've sort of, you know, a new a new experience for for us. Mhmm. And, but anyway, so she had this quote and it was a cracking quote, which is is that, she she because she used to be a banker. She was a bank manager when she went into sex work, from that. So in the quote the quote she was used was, was that she came up, that she took she she she started sex work to throw off the stigma of being a banker. Yeah. She had my respect from that moment.
Yeah. It's very interesting.
So, yeah, you'll probably get, full, so the the question people always ask, when they're, talk about money burning, well, the first one is usually about charity. So expect expect that. Why didn't you give it to charity? It's usually Yeah. I I sacrificed it for,
to the gods of capitalism.
Yeah.
Wow, that was a very fun experience and a very new one for me. Thanks so much for helping lead my first burning. That's no problem, you're very, very welcome. And for taking the time for the interview. That's all the questions I have at the moment. So maybe the last thing is you can share with people where they can learn more and find more about your work, follow you on social media and such?
Yeah. So, if you I'm on I'm on Twitter as, John one one hundred. You can go to burnyourburnyourmoney.org. You can go to churchofchurchofburn.org, or you can go to burningissue.net. If you if you search, Jonathan Harris money burning guy on Google, you'll you'll you'll probably get to the call pretty easy. There's few pieces on medium if you're if you're interested in, in in, you know, in in a short in a well, not that short, but, a a basic introduction to it. And I have a blog as well. So if if you're interested in the more academic stuff, and my I do, sort of, academic rambles, I would suppose, is the best way to bring it on on various issues of money. Mhmm. Then I have a blog at, which is john1100@blogsblogatblogspot.com. But just hit me up on any of those. If you just search my blog, I'm sure you'll find it. Yeah. Sure. I'll I'll I'll put the links in,
in the in the description of the post Cool. So people can find it. Alright. Thanks a lot. And,
Thank you.
And, let's stay in touch.