The Promise of People Powered Money with CirclesUBI
For this interview I spoke to Julio Linares (@Julio_Linares_) an Economic Anthropologist studied under David Graeber at the LSE, Social Outreach at the Basic Income Org, and Research & Community for CirclesUBI (@CirclesUBI). CirclesUBI is a project seeking to provide people a universal basic income using the xDAI ethereum sidechain based on mutual credit. You may have heard about CirclesUBI a while back when they first came out and everyone in cryptocurrency social media spaces was spammi...
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Transcript
So hello again. You're listening to the Blockchain Socials podcast. And for today's guest, I have Julio Linares. He's an economic anthropologist who studied under David Graeber at the LSE. He is social outreach at the Basic Income Org and works on research and community for Circles UBI based in Berlin. So hey, Julio. How are you doing?
Hello. Hello. How's it going? Pretty
good. Yeah. So I I really enjoyed listening to you speak during the Money Lab conference, how, direct you were about being an anarchist and, not believing or not believing in the existing the existence of the states, which I thought was very cool. And to, like, see people, like, oh, wow. He's really gonna say it. It was very cool. And, like, to hear how honest and open you were about your, about how you felt about money and about, like, the research that you're doing. But so maybe we get into before we get into that, could you introduce us a bit, to your work and, like, to you and how you got into the cryptocurrency space and now working with, Circle's UBI.
I guess you could say my work is somehow at the intersection between money, basic income, and direct democracy. So what I'm trying to do is to shift the way in which money is created by, you know, creating tools, creating forms, social forms where people can issue it out, to the world as opposed to a bank or a state. And then through that process, democratize the economy around them. So in that sense, money is just kinda like a territory, or a or a way I mean, a promise, really mutual promise that the people make to each other in order to create a different economy, and give a basic income to each other. So that's kinda like the the goal, is really to, issue enough money that every individual has the ability to cover their basic needs. And, you know, ideally, if it's a full UBI, they don't have to rely on wage labor, as the means as the main means to sustain themselves. Basic income, of course, is defined as an unconditional amount of money given to everybody in a in a given universe and given political community. And it's the unconditional part is really important. It means that it's not, means tested, or there is no work requirement basically for it. You don't have to prove that you are specific gender or specific, earning a specific income, or or proving that you have to that you're working anything like this. It's, unconditional. Right? And that that's, I believe, the most, part of it. And, of course, that is given to everybody. And that's really the challenge. So I got I got two, circles through many different random, or I guess not random, I don't know, stories. First I mean, I started working on basic income when I was in Taiwan. I'm originally from Guatemala. I, went to Taiwan when I was 19 with the scholarship, and I was there for six years. And initially, I started economics there. I was doing, yeah, just, you know, a normal economic student, at a Taiwanese university, you know, trying to understand. I thought and I had this naive belief when I was, like, 19 that if I learn how the economy worked, by studying economics, I could somehow help change the situation in my country. This was my, initial, design, I have to say. But then when I started reading all these books about, you know, monkey with all these neocons, I I realized that, you know, the actual history of, you know, a place like Taiwan where I lived and how it, you know, created its industrial capabilities and its industries and technologies and and so on, which gave a lot of its wealth. Also, you know, basically, a political economy of it, was really different from what I what I was taught, in the books. And so I started digging deeper, and that led me to anthropology, specifically to the work of Carpolani, who talked a lot about, this idea of the fictitious commodities, namely, land, labor, and money. So, basically, this idea that land, our bodies, you know, work, and money, our promises were not always commodities. They were commodified under the, you know, by different historical, happenings. Right? And and so I thought, oh, wow. Like, this was back in 2000, '14 or 2015, I think. And then I said, oh, wow. Wouldn't, like, if, you know, basic income be a way whereby, people could decommodify their work, and sort of brought an idea of what work is. And also, by doing that, also, decommodify money somehow. And that was kind of the initial question that led me to doing basic income stuff, activism around it. So initially, I started, we started a network in Taiwan, with some friends to promote basic income there. And, we made, like, a team, and we had, like, students come and learn about basic income and all the research that had been done up to that time, and it was really practical. It was kinda focused on this sort of type of policy papers. You know? So, like, how to finance a basic income from a state perspective. And, you know, through through that, I, you know, sort of, like, learned about all these methods and all these ways in which you could theoretically create a basic income from the perspective of the state. So sovereign wealth fund, you know, monetary creation and monetary destruction via taxation and so on. And that led me also to question, I guess, what money is really, like, to go to actually the root of money. Where where does it come from? And all these types of fundamental questions. And at the time, because of, you know, Polania, I somehow stumbled upon David's work, specifically, his work on value and, of course, his work on debt. And I thought, okay. This guy seems cool. I should talk to him. And so I applied for another scholarship when I was in Taiwan to go to London. I said, okay. This guy might help me out. You know, maybe by, you know, studying, you know, with him and someone could figure out a way to, yeah, rethink money somehow. And when I was in Taiwan I mean, Taiwan is a very hacker friendly place somehow. There's a lot of, people, that are into crypto and technology in general. And I met a hacker there who knew some of the people that were part of circles at the time. And he knew I was doing work on basic income, and he kinda connected us. And during that period, I was, also on my way to London, and and then I met them, I think. Yeah. I was at a conference at the we do, like, with BN, the business commerce network that you mentioned. We do, like, national, sorry, annual congresses. This year is in is in Scotland, and that year was in Portugal. So I met them there, and we kinda, you know, slowly became buddies, became friends, and they needed somebody at the time to do research on what they were doing. At the time, there was no circles yet. Like, it was an idea. And yeah. And slowly through that process, when I graduated from the LSC, I initially wanted to do a PhD, on something else, and then I ended up, having no money. Like, I had I didn't get a scholarship for it for this PhD. I remember David was really pissed off about this, because I never found any of his active students. And then, yeah, I just basically I needed a job. I needed, some money. My dad was dying. He had cancer in his brain. So I was like, okay. And they they were like, hey. We can, you know, give you a job. And I was like, okay. Let's do this. And so I I moved to Berlin after London. Wow. That's an incredible story, I have to say. You've been in several different parts of the world. Three different continents, at least. It was definitely a nonlinear journey. So So then I'm curious what you thought in the beginning
about cryptocurrencies maybe around that time since I imagine at that point I don't it sounds like you were getting, I mean, radicalized like towards the left, of course. And I assume at that point, cryptocurrency was not really that far developed in terms of UBI or in terms of, like, maybe basically, the biggest use case for crypto was largely Bitcoin speculation probably, around that time.
So I'm I'm curious what was your thoughts around then? Yeah. I mean, I guess I was more interested in the infrastructure, as a political economy, you know, space, let's say. But you're right. I mean, at the time, it was mostly like Bitcoin speculation, ether speculation. Also, Ripple, I think, was big back then. But, yeah, it was just many people with this idea that Bitcoin is somehow money. Right? And it's like, I mean, we don't have to get into that, but, you know, just this fetish fetishization over, yeah, these digital collectibles.
It's a whole other conversation.
Yeah. Totally. Talk out already. Yeah. That was that was a space back then. Right? And, but there was so much, imagination. I think that's what I liked about the space that it was open for imagination. You know? It still is in many ways. And so people are like, yeah. You know? Let's just, you know, do a basic income on the blockchain. And that just sounded interesting in terms of like, okay. You don't have to wait for a state to do it. That's true. You can do it, you know, embedded in a community of trust. You know? And so that that kinda, like, coincided with a lot of the stuff I was doing at the time also. Like, when I was in London, I got to meet a lot of, a lot of friends, a lot of comrades from the Kurdish movement, and I was really drawn into that. So, you know, at the time, also with David, we were he actually asked me what's to do some sort of synthesis between, his work on death and Ojolan's work on, you know, the modernity and, like, also well, I guess, also his work on anti patriarchal stuff and and just on, like, democratize the democratization of life, I guess, in many ways. This sociology of freedom as he calls it.
That that that would be a a really interesting synthesis that I would, I'd want to look at immediately. In some of the some of the work that I've seen, and I think you're sort of alluding to it in some of your explanation, you've talked about what, I think I'm not sure if you termed it, but it's called an ecology of care in, like, in relationship to a universal basic income. So I was curious, like, what and as well, just to add a caveat, I guess, because I I've I've listened to some of David Graeber's, seminars before where he, I think, in his book, Bullshit Jobs, sort of, like, changing, transitioning instead of always thinking about labor as, like, the only form of work, but also, like, care as a form of, like, the basis of work, which I guess is is a big part of the UBI movement. But, like, what what does that look like, do you think, like, having an ecology of care as opposed to, you know, the standard wage slavery that me and I'm sure many others who are listening suffer under, under capitalism?
Yeah. I guess, I mean, it's a pretty broad question. I guess it's like a it's kinda like this this thing of, like, if you can rethink what work is and then just focus on the end products, you know, like a like a glass. I mean, David always used to say this. Not like you make a cup once, but you watch it a thousand times. So most work is just maintaining stuff, taking care of others, taking care of people. Right? We wouldn't be here without the care of our mothers, our fathers, our ancestors, really. So, decentering, like, this sort of idea of production as the main sort of driving force of an economy to actually the production of people, and the people we wanna have around, without forms of domination. So also, like, abolishing all these types of, yeah, I guess hierarchical relationships that come with, things like wage labor. Right? And so for me, what we became interested about basic income was, like, as a way into imagining and thinking practically about, how could the reformulation of money as a commons, even as a basic income, lead to people caring more, and caring, you know, as they want from each food with each other, with the environment, not not having these relationships of domination over each other, and then also over, what you call nature. Right? We are also part of nature. Right? And so, yeah, I thought maybe, like, through a basic income that is, you know, given us with, you know, claim as as democratic money, we could go beyond it could be a way out of this whole nation state hurdle that we're in and also hopefully about or or, you know, beyond capitalism. And that's kinda like that's kinda like the ideas I'm trying to put into practice with circles. But, yeah, it's a lot of contradictions. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I I wanna get I wanna get to, to the the contradictions part maybe a little bit later. But so what is democratic money, and, you know, what what does it promise us, maybe as opposed to the regular economy and even, like, as opposed to how cryptocurrencies are are usually formulated?
I guess, you know, nowadays, there is a lot of talk about MMT, about mother monetary, which is actually coming a lot from, you know, the sort of idea that money is not a commodity, but actually a form of credit. Now there is this other part to this theory that, you know, is based on this idea of state theory of money that it's called by a guy called Knapp, some German dude nobody remembers anymore, nineteenth century, somewhere in Germany. Twentieth century, I think. Yeah. Anyways, so there's this sort of naturalization that says that, you know, money, understood as, you know, credit mutual forms of credit, that we make to each other, promises we make to each other, can only happen through the state. And this is historically not true. I mean, it does happen, of course, but there are many, many social forms, many types of communities that have issued, money to each other to settle their debts. I mean, I mean, and so claiming the democratic money, like, also by using Ojoland, and this is kinda like saying, like, we have to democratize life in all its dimensions, the political dimension, the, you know, the relationships, between people in all all all all I mentioned. So not just the politics, but also, ecological stuff, how we produce things, the economy or how we understand the economy and so on. All of these things have to be democratized, and, yeah, that includes money. And so democratic money is just basically saying it is people who have the ability to issue, promises to each other freely and then, yeah, decide about, the boundaries of what resources they wanna claim from each other and how. Right now, we live in a very non cons consensual money system. And so how do you make them more consensual? You know? That's kinda like, I guess, where I'm trying to take that. And so, I mean, all my love and solidarity to to MMT people, but it's also a question about empire. You know? Like, you can talk about MMT. Sure. And it it might create make sense in somewhere like The US, but the the dollar is, I mean, an imperial currency. And so I'm I'm curious to hear, what people in the left in The US have to say about this.
I think, to me, I sort of think of MMT as just, like, maybe the correct observation about how a lot of, at least, like, imperial countries, how their monetary system sort of works and, like, what they're able to get away with. But it's not any sort of prescription for, like, what we
actually want the end goal to be. I sort of argue it's Yeah. It's also a question about, you know, the role of the state and, you know, yeah, how do we organize outside of it, within it, against it? You know, it's a lot of questions in there. I mean, I think a lot of the the analysis is correct. I mean, you know, states, do create money, and they, you know, can destroy it as well, you know, because they have power over life and death. And that's sort of part of the problem, I guess. Like, the US army, which kind of backs up the dollar, is the biggest polluter in the world. So wouldn't, you know, the MMT mean the abolition of the US army and, you know, use all that money to fund infrastructure in The US? This is a this is a huge fact
that is ignored a lot amongst the left whenever they criticize cryptocurrencies and their energy use. Not that I'm defending it, but there's also the people tend tend to forget that the US military is the, largest polluter and, that is basically what allows money to be? Yeah. Exactly.
Yeah. And, I mean, I think I mean, the the question about, ecological dimensions of things that Bitcoin and so on, I think that has a lot to do with the, you know, what I call the politics of algorithms. So, like, in a way, Bitcoin is also quite imperialistic in some sense. It's like Sure. Yeah. I mean, this whole idea that, you know, the more people are mining in the network, the more complex it becomes at to mine a block and and sort of like this expansionary, overreaching, dimension of Bitcoin is really problematic. And that's that's politics, you know? People like to, sort of create this sort of anti politics machine, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Around this all these technologies and all you just have to trust the blockchain and I don't know what. But that's that's bullshit. I mean, there's a lot of power, distribution in systems like Bitcoin, Ethereum, and so on and so forth, that are not spoken about enough. And this is something that I encountered when I started working on circles. And I try to tease out I mean, I often call the people who started a lot of these projects like CryptoKings, you know, like people who got their first, you know, Bitcoin, Ether, and so on. And they just kinda created this virtual realm, the virtual feudal, like, land, let's say, where they just kind of extract some of the transaction fees from people being on their virtual land. You know? Yeah. And so, I mean, the blockchain space has a lot of, potentialities, but also a lot of problems if you don't really think about, yeah, the the sign also of these algorithms and the politics that they carry, how do they impact people, like the users, you know, the people who use the systems.
Yeah. It's it's sort of this, I think it was like I think Zizek has talked about it a bit but like how anti ideology has become an ideology unto itself. And I feel like that's that could that characterizes a lot of the crypto space where people are so adamant that they're anti or non ideological or non political. Like a really common one is that Bitcoin is like non political money, which is like, it's horseshit. I mean, it's very political. All money is political, you know. I don't think it's possible to be non political. But so in some of your work you've talked about one of the ways in order to make money more democratic is, demurrage. I think that's how you say it right? Demurrage. Yeah. It's no French name. Demurrage. So that and that's that's an idea that's been it's been played around with in the crypto space in particular in, like, very small projects. They never get very big, I've noticed. Like, the only big the ones that get big are the, like, hard, quote, unquote, hard money type of ones like Bitcoin and Ethereum, which I find interesting. But, yeah, I was just curious, on your thoughts around, demurrage and, like, how that plays in the role of of democratic money. And I think it's an interesting idea that is very difficult to implement outside of blockchain from what I've seen or outside of cryptocurrencies. It's quite difficult to implement. Like, you know, your US dollar is going to evaporate in your bank account if you don't move it or something like that. You know? It's a lot there's a lot of difficulties, but blockchain sort of, I think, opens up that space a little bit more. Yeah. For sure. I mean, this is it's just the way,
the way I think about the Mirage rebutting money or putting a parking fee on money. Right? It's like, it's just a way to allow for more circulation, of resources, of personal some money. But it's it's something that you have to really test in practice. Right? Like, I mean, that right now with circles, we have this, like, inflationary system, whereby we just create money, equally. Let's say we issue money at an equal rate, everybody who enters. And so, like, the logic is kinda like as follows. You know? Like, basically, like, right now, the system the money system, works in a way where it's produced with the principle of scarcity. So when the bank issues the debt, they only issue the principal, so the amount that they lent, but they do not, make the interest. So, you know, the interest comes from, other people kind of competing in labor markets for, you know, the surplus values and stuff just to get it, you know, extracted and then give it back to the banks. It's kinda like a like a vacuum cleaner. You know? It's a vacuum of value in some way. And so by making money scarce, you create the necessity for growth, for economic growth. And that's really at the core of the ecological disaster that we're living. This ability for banks to issue money and then lend it out so they can make real estate investments or whatever it is. You know? And so the logic with servicing, that's why it's kind of counterintuitive to a lot of people, of course, is that we are just making money abundant, and then people can decide what resources they can claim with it. So to kinda get over this idea of, of the the necessity of the the growth imperative as it's called sometimes. Right? Now with Demarest, I'm still playing with this idea. Like, eventually, I I dream of of of a time when when with circles, we also decentralized the protocol. So there can be many instances of the of of circles, let's say. And one could have Demiraj, for example. So, it's kinda like another way of doing the same thing, I guess. So, although I'm I'm sure they will have slightly different effects, whereby, you know, you issue money constantly, but then over time, if you didn't use some of it, it it it dies. No? Like anything else in life. And, you know, one thing about Demiras that is worth noting is that it makes, for more long term thinking rather than the short termism of of that money today. So this negative interest on money from growth, allows for people to just kinda, like, you know, be more present in some way. And also by by doing that also, thinking more long term somehow, which is something I think we really desperately need in this, 2020 twenties.
Yeah. It it seems to me there's sort of like an inverse relationship with how money grows and how the economy, like, ends up growing maybe. Yeah. Like, at least that's that's how I'm reading it when you were talking about how, these hard monies are sort of, like, making it a requirement for economic growth in order to pay off debt. Because what a lot of Bitcoiners and I think, if people in Ethereum as well are sort of just completely ignoring, maybe unconsciously because they benefit from it, but is that in the long run, this type of money system ends up just helping creditors rather than rather than debtors in, like, a huge way. It's just totally if if you if you, loan out one Bitcoin, you know, you have to pay it off in in five years and there's less Bitcoin in the economy, you have to work so much more than you would have, you know, five years ago to pay off that loan. And that's that's just insane. It's a lot more energy output. Right? Yeah. So that has to do with the, the climate crisis as well. Yeah.
Yeah. So, of course, I mean, it's it's claiming resources. It's kinda like making that imperative that, you know, these debts have to be paid back. And so we need to grow at the level of like, when the central bank sets their, like, target interest rates, that's basically they're saying we're gonna try to grow at this at this, you know, at this rate, because that's kinda the rate at which, you know, banks can then lend out money on top of that to make some sort of profit. And so, you know, that's that's how it works. Right? So if you're really serious about about abolishing or, like, or at least changing the institutions of money, we really have to think hard about, what types of monies we want to use for an everyday basis. You know? How they are created, how are they issued into the world, how they're, you know, are, you know, brought into being, so to say.
So you mentioned already that you have a really big interest in, in Ocalan's work and his idea around, democratic confederalism. So I was wondering if you could maybe speak a little bit more about how where that fits into your ideas around democratic money. And, yeah, if and if you know of any, like, examples that Rojava or, you know, in the Kurdish movement, they've been able to implement any sort of, like, democratic money and and how they use it. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm I'm interested in Ojana, of course, but just the Kurdish movement as a whole, the women's movement,
have been really key in creating this really, democratic structures in in Rojava. It's basically a system of of grassroots democracy of of direct democratic assemblies or councils, where where people get together at the at the smallest levels of of of you think it could be the neighborhood, it can be the street, and then they federate. You know, so you you just send a representative from the assembly from, like, I don't know, this neighborhood to the next one. And and then you can create a a way where, people have the power to decide over the things that affect them very, very locally. And the power always remains with them. And this then this representative is from the local areas can then go to, more, Yeah. Like, more federated levels, not to represent just the decisions that are made. And you also have, dual structures. So there's also a a women's assembly, let's say, or a women's, structure only. There is a mixed one and a women's one to maintain the the sort of a power parity, right, to kind of fight patriarchy at a structural level, in terms of how people organize. So, for example, one of the collectives I'm part of here in Berlin is called the Bloc Latino Americano. We've learned a lot from, the Kurdish movement, and now we've even implemented this type of structure. So there is a women's assembly, in, the blockade Latino Americano, influenced by, the instances of genealogies, signs of women, and and just, yeah, the the Kurdish movement, which is, I think, probably it's, something I always say is, like, the most revolutionary movement in Europe is a migrant movement. It's a you know, it's the the Kurdish movement, I think, Mainly because the critique that they make is a civilisatory critic. I think that's how you say it in English or civilizational critique. So it's basically like saying, you know, it's not, just, birth of capitalism that we really have to look at, but, actually, the underlying structure within it, which is broader, which is that of patriarchy, kind of, at the at the origin of the emergence of some things like hierarchy. No? So what they say is basically that, you know, women were the first colony of men. And through this process, then, you know, other, parts of life or other, you know, things became, colonized. And so, you know, it draws a lot on, know, people like Bookchin, for example, but not just, this notion of social ecology that, the the very notion that we can think that we can dominate nature is rooted in the real domination between men over men and men over women. And so if we do not, create social forms for ways of relating to each other that are based on domination, we cannot also release ourselves from, you know, from dominating nature, so to say. Here it goes. Right? And, and then I mean, this relates to democratic money in the sense that it is kind of a way of saying, okay. Money is has been for the last five thousand years or more, in many sort of the hegemonic civilizations of the world, a disciplining tool, to make people go into into slavery, into wage slavery, into bullshit jobs, into many, forms of, yeah, of, domination, I guess. And so, basically, what would it mean to create, democratic money following these principles? You will also mean, of course, the democratization of the economy as we know it, meaning, you know, economies that are more local, that are more sustainable in the sense that, you know, things are more regional. You know? It's more local solutions for global problems. It's not, you know, this sort of globalist globalist, first approach is more really being rooted in the area and knowing that every area is different and has different needs, and also different resources. And it's also the decentralization of power in a way. And and these three principles have come together with this idea of the democratic confederation. Right? Which is, when, you know, you federate together, you confederate together all these autonomous democratic units, that are all organizing the water system, the transport system, the logistics system, the product you know, the the the production of food, the caring, the the care work, and and so on and so forth, and also money. Right? So it's like some sort of democratic confederalist money system, I guess. And yeah. I mean I mean, circles is just, like, the beginning of these ideas, I guess, in so many ways. Like, I'm sure many things will come out of it. It's just the beginning attempt to really try to do this and practice them. Of course, there has many contradictions given the political economy of things like blockchains. Right? Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, in Grozio, I know that, there have been many maybe some attempts at doing some sort of money system there. I don't know. Maybe with Faircoin at some point, but I really don't know, to be honest. It would be nice actually to to see how, you know, there can be some forms of, of exchange there that are not rooted in the in the Syrian, money, just in general, in everywhere. I mean, I think it's like so long as we keep using the promises of the state,
we will keep reproducing it. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I I really hope that, like, some sort of crypto libertarian is listening to this just to get a a left wing version of, of real libertarianism, I guess.
Yeah. I guess I mean, I'm a libertarian socialist in that way, I guess. I mean, I mean, I don't really I mean, the thing is these these traditions come a lot from Europe, but they were not invented in Europe. I mean, there is a big critique now, and I really like this. It's also something they wrote about in his last book is, that, you know, a lot of the ideas of Marxism and and and so on come really from the encounters that, like, colonial people had in The US, for example, or is not The US, with indigenous confederations, like the Iriqua people in the in, like, you know, North, East. Yeah. It's Northeast here or East, US. Right? Whereby they had, you know, the land was owned by women. It was matrilineal. They had also federations between them, and they had ways. They had also money systems that had their own imaginations, and that represented their value system. And then The US kinda took that as a as a sort of model for their federation, copying a lot of the symbols and stuff like that. And it also influenced Marx. I mean, Lewis Henry Morgan, the father, quote, unquote, of an anthropology in The US, was a a fanboy of all these, indigenous people. And he met, actually, real living Idicwa people who were, you know, learning law to fight the colonial system at the time, and he wrote about it. And there's this book by Engels. It's famous. It's called, like, the origins of the of the state and, Kinship. I don't know what else. And, you know, it's not just this. I mean, Rousseau, Volterra, all these people were really try drawing on inspiration. All the enlightenment in Europe was really, reaction to, the the the colonial encounter in a way. I mean, the the encounter of, you know, really radically democratic peoples by our state. Yeah. Right. Right. So Guatemala is the same. Guatemala had, you know, many indigenous communal governments, and still has, for hundreds of years, against the state, against the sort of, you know, enclosure of the state and and also capitalism. And they're still there, and they're still resisting. It's just people don't pay attention to them. The the Zapatistas, you know, are are a representation of this.
Hey, everyone. If you're enjoying this episode so far, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend, and join the crypto leftist communities on Discord and Reddit, which you can find links to in the show notes. If you're enjoying the interview or find the content I make important, you can pitch in to my efforts starting at $3 a month on patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist to help me out and join the newest patrons like Alex isn't here, Ian and Paul. Any amount really helps since making this stuff isn't free in terms of money or time. As a patron, you'll get a shout out on an episode like I just did and access to monthly patreon exclusive q and a episodes where you can submit and vote on questions you'd like me to answer, and I'll give my thoughts in roughly twenty minutes. On the latest Patreon exclusive q and a episode, I gave my hot take on NFTs and how the left has been reacting to them. Of course, I'll still be making free content like this interview to help spread the message that blockchain does not need to be used to further change capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it. So if that message resonates with you, I hope you'll consider helping out. But now let's get back to the interview with Julio Linares from Circles UBI. So I really wanted to get to to this question because, it's a really, really common critique that I hear from people on the Left when they critique anything related to cryptocurrencies or blockchain. And is that because or they say that the ultimate goal is to have a moneyless society, right, sort of like communism is having a moneyless society, and therefore we shouldn't engage in things related to crypto. And and I think that's also is why, you know, there aren't very many leftists who talk about, like, finance and and money in general, I think as well is is quite rare. But But I'm curious to hear from your, you know, libertarian socialist perspective, you know, about that critique. You you had mentioned something really interesting that I that I really identified with during the MoneyLab conference about, yeah, trying to make that a reality, but understanding that there are, steps to take in order to get there. And yeah. Well,
Yeah. Yeah. Let you speak. Yeah. I mean, the thing is the thing with money is that, it sort of in all dimensions, right, it really moves people, in so many different ways. In in German, the word for debt is also the word for guilt. So or. And so if you talk to Germans about money, they're gonna be the you know? It's a taboo. You know? And so especially with the German left, they see that a lot. I mean, people are just not used to thinking about money. Something that just it's there. You just have to kinda have to use, and it's awkward to talk about it. It's always intense. And, oh my god. And who's gonna pay for the bill? This thing. Oh, no. And, like, you also see it every time you wanna pay a bill somehow, and then people are like, no. Let me pay. No. You pay. No. You pay. So it it kinda, you know, has this weird it carries all these, money's awkward. You know? I had an essay in the air power spell this called the, you know, money being awkward.
Where to save money. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, because it has a lot of a lot of power. Right? It's a it's a symbol of power in so many ways. And so, I guess it kinda goes to if you think of money as power, then you also then you then the conversation starts to shift. Right? Because the left, a lot of the times, tries to avoid talking about power. You know? They're against power. They're like, oh, no. Power is bad in some some ways. You know? Even though capitalism is or I think I think
the socialist Marxism, I guess, is a analysis of power under capitalism.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Capital yeah. I mean, exactly capital as power in somewhere. And so, yeah, I heard this many times from especially Marxist. Right? Like, oh, no. In the Marxist society in a Marxist society or in a communist society, there wouldn't be any money and stuff like that, but that's you know, I think it kinda misses the point. It's like, imagine a society where people don't make any promise to each other. How would you how would you, you know, deal with, you know, social obligations. You know? Like, I give this for you. You give this for that. Like, you know, it's just really a way of of accounting for things in some way. I guess I guess also what I argue for is actually the opposite is to say, we don't need a moneyless society. What we need is to make money more pluralistic. You know? Now we live in a world where money is a monoculture. We use one type of money, one money form, when general purpose money, let's say, to move resources around to, you know, fund education, health care, international trade, you know, pay wages, all these things. And that, of course, leads to a monoculture of many other things in life. And so I think it's, like, important to, create different money structures, that that, of course, have different functions, but, actually, that the structures serve, you know, for different, you know, things. No. So back in, you know, mesopotamian times, you had different monies for different uses, and they all have their own structures. Right? And that made also economies more more, I guess, resilient in some ways. Right? Because you you were not just stuck with one structure that had to fit all the all, you know, one size fits all type of thing. I think we can I don't know? I have a guess that this is not, don't take my word for this, that probably, like, before the rise of patriarchy, there was, you know, more pluralistic ways of I mean, it was probably not even called money. Right? It's it was something else. Right? Like like, if you look at money from an anthropological perspective, also, like, the Iroquois that I mentioned before, they had shell like, they had, like, how do you call this? Not, the wampum? The wampum belts. Right? Where they would write their peace treaties and also and also war. So it was a symbol for war and peace in a way. And the wampum kind of, you know, it all served as a way of exchanging stuff, but it really was a representation of their universe. So now we're really stuck in this sort of dollar imagination that just reproduces the values of of empire, the US empire and so on. And also, of course, the other nation states. And so to get out of this imagination, we really have to think hard about how and also practice it. Like, how do we create other monies, you know, for other, you know, for other social forms to emerge.
And yeah. Maybe that's one of the reasons why the left is so fragmented maybe a lot of the time is that we don't really have a way of I don't at least I feel like we don't have a way of like, a standardized way of, like, making obligations to each other, promises to each other to, like, to reach some sort of end. Whereas for the I think for the right, it's very easy. It's like, well if you're making more money then that's good. Like that's I think that's why you don't like on the right you see a lot like you see people say crazy shit, you know, to like Republican politicians at their rallies. They're like, I don't care. Whatever. Sure. Yeah. You're making me money. You know? Or like, what it's like a they have like a some sort of goal in mind, usually revolved around making money. But on the left, we don't really have I don't wanna say system of coercion, but, you know, we don't have, like, a similar way of, like, helping organize us towards a particular goal, which ends up
Yeah. I think it's about it's about, like, how how we use power and and what we use it for. Yeah. I think as the issue, people are so afraid to talk about power. If if I talk to, I don't know, a German bourgeois, lefties person here in Berlin about power, they're like, no. I'm a I'm a I'm a white man. Not supposed to talk about this. You know? But it's there. You know? It's really bluntly there. And, and so this sort of innovation and, like, blindness over of of power, kinda like also, you know, it puts it under the carpet somehow, and I think, like, we need to learn how to deal with our powers better. Now, Now, I mean, there's all this language in the sort of, you know, political correctness, world about, privileges. Right? And it's like, okay. Yeah. People have privileges and but they have to, like, accept them, you know, if they have them and then use them in a way where it fits for some sort of revolutionary purpose. Right? I mean, like, if you're gonna if you have powers, okay, share them, you know, relinquish them, move them around, you know, but if you just like like this, like, you're not gonna really challenge the the the power the the, you know, the more power structures there there. I think it's a question of how do you use your positionality or your position in the system, to subvert it. You know? You know, as a migrant in Berlin, this is my my my everyday problem with the with the German left. It's like, you know, they don't they don't get their shit together. They're just they have a lot of power, but they just don't you know? They're kind of really entrenched in this, you know, in in individualistic world, that is caused by the state and is caused by, you know, its capital structures as well. Maybe we can go on,
to your work with Circle's UBI. So You've mentioned it a few times, but could you explain a bit what exactly it's trying to achieve? What what is it? What are what are its goals?
Well, I guess Circles is a a basic income project, which is trying to create a real life basic income for people. Now in practice, that means that people have to come together, and connect with each other. There is a system of trust in circles whereby when you trust somebody, basically, it means that it means two things. Trust means two things in the circle system. The first is is more like identity system to know that people are people, and then they can they can enter. And the second thing is that, you know, wherever there is credit, there is trust. You would only you would only give credit to those people who you trust. Right? You don't give credit to strangers. Right? So trust is a is a big element when thinking about money and and also making money. And so even banks, I mean, they trust that you are not gonna run away with your money somehow, and they can figure out a way to claim your resources if you stop paying. Right? That's really coercive. With circles, it's more like, okay. Let's create a a network where we all can have the power to issue money and then think about how we want to deal with those debts collectively and and and democratically. Right, so it's a it's a different experience. I mean, people are not used to, feeling like money issuers. People are used to
being money takers. Right? This is like the real be your own bank. You know how, like, Bitcoiners and Bitker do, they always have, like, be your own bank. Like, this is like, these type of mutual credit systems. I believe Circle is like a it's based on mutual credits. This is really literally being your own bank in that you are lending, or not really lending, but you're like, you know, giving promises to people and it's sort of the it's recognizing your own privilege or power that you have just in order it like, you know, just by default as a as a human being. Should I think Exactly. And and that's also the point of basic income is that,
it's a shifting how we value human beings. Today, you're only valuable if you work for a wage at some company, right, to the system. Right? And so it circles it's been like, no. Actually, you can issue money and you can decide what things you wanna value in in the world. Right? And so in practice, a lot of the work I do here in Berlin is basically, like, talking to different, people. So different businesses, different comparatives, different farms around Brandenburg, which is, like, the the kinda like the state that it's a ring, basically, that surrounds Berlin. Also the logistics people, alternatives to logistics. There is a really nice group here called the food fairies, and one of them, has this project called Ecologistics. I think that's really nice. And sort of like connecting all these sectors to each other, right, to create a I mean, the the methodology I borrowed, from, Sardext, which is a a very, very nice mutual credit system in Sardinia. Hello to Giuseppe if he's still listening. Where basically you first build, I mean, in business, jargon, you you you will call it a business to business, partner system whereby businesses connect, with each other and exchange the things that they need with each other, for, you know, the circle's credits. So it's I call it a merchants network or a merchant circle. So once you have that, so, like, that's, you know, my work on a limited basis is talking to, I don't know, beer companies, supermarkets, competitive, you know, you know, care people who want to provide care for, you know, others, for pets, whatever. But mostly targeting collectives, like businesses, competitors, and stuff. Connect them with each other, build that trust, and make sure that works well. And this is, you know, more or less where I'm at at the moment. We launched in October. So I'm building that up also with people here. We do assemblies every month whereby, you know, different people come and they say, okay. I wanna be in the radio team. And so we have a radio team now with some friends, and we're gathering radios in Berlin to, email them and get them to accept circles for advertisement for from local shops, whereby a shop can pay, their circle can issue circles to the, to the radio to pay for underutilized airtime, so they can, put the business down. Then people hear it, and then maybe they go and spend their euros and also eventually circles there, for example. And also with logistics stuff, like, how do you get things from, you know, the rural area to the urban area and also within the urban area? It's really practical work. It's not, you know, high and mighty theory. It's just really, really practical. You know, I was just messaging, one of the one of the writers, and he was like like, I don't wanna go to the assembly. Like, I don't wanna do the theory, man. I just just tell me when to be there, and I'll be there. You know? And I was like, okay. Right. You know? So it's important to, you know, make it really grounded and palpable and useful for people. Like, you mean to ask them what do they need. You know? Where can we find that in the network? Right? And so it's that's the process. And then they and then it's like, okay. What can you give? You know? What can you what's your capacity? Right? What's comfortable? You know? Because a business is not gonna start off by giving all their products in circles. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to pay their rent. Right? Yeah. So they have to start at some percentage, and then based on that, they can issue credits and maybe some methodology that that that I use to do that. And then yeah. But, of course, it's not just my my work. It's the work of many people. It's the work of, you know, my we just established a a cooperative here in Berlin, like a notion shaft to try to do this work. And, yeah, there's also a collective called the bits possessed collective, that formed out of circles. And now it's, like, I think four or five different developers who do work on circles, but also in other projects, which is also nice, because, you know, programmers are usually lonely people. So they it's nice that they organize also. And, yeah, also my coworker, who we do a lot of work here in Berlin on and and just many interesting people that are, slowly getting together to do this.
Yeah. I guess that circles. I know. And the I mean, the system, I don't I didn't explain how the system works. Should I do that as well? Yeah. Sure. Go ahead. It's, it's sort of as far as I understand, we can add on to it. It's like a you have to trust you have to be trusted by three other people who are already trusted by the circles that are within the circles network. And then you're allowed to receive the the UBI and and trade, and give, circles.
Exactly. And exactly. And then yeah. As I said before, there is this equal rate at which people have the power to issue money. So at the moment is you enter and you get 50 circles. And, after that, it's 8 a day. But, you know, as I was saying, like, it's this idea of abundance, right, that many people, even, like, radical people are not used to because they're just like, oh my god. But you're only really issuing money if you go below your bands because that will be the zero initial credit. And so you're really only, like, going in and out of debt when you issue a payment to somebody, and that's when money gets created. Exactly. And so that's the you know, it's a different logic. It's also different way. We're we're testing. We're playing with this to see how people feel it. Yeah. Right now yeah. So there is this element now where these different individuals are in the bubble trust. And then as they trust each other, payments can go through the network. So if I don't trust somebody down the line, I can still pay them through other people that trust them. So we call this, like, transitive exchange, and it's just based on this idea of the six degrees of separation that connect everybody in the world. So, basically, you know, money obviously has this two sidedness. So it's like the positive and the negative side. So when I issue payment to you, I go negative, and then you're positive, and then you issue a payment to the person I want to pay, with your own credits, and then you go negative, and then he goes positive. And so you you end up being new neutral, let's say. And then he's positive and I'm negative. And and so that's how the the the rippling credit network works. And yeah. And we're gonna have group wallets, coming soon, so people can come together and, you know, deposit their own circles there and start exchanging with other groups. At the moment, it's kinda hacky. Like, I make groups, you know, like, it's not recommended, of course, but I make, group accounts for individual wallets, which is not ideal because only people should issue a basic income, not groups. You know? They're not like businesses or competitors. But that's kinda like where we are at in terms of, like, the development work, the programming work. And then eventually, also, we hope to have some things like group currencies as well where people can burn their personal credit and then issue more community credit based on networks.
Would it be like the equivalent of, like, making an I don't know, an ERC 20 token, but for your cooperative or something like that? Yeah. Basically. I mean, these are all ERC 20 tokens, but
we really, you know, think about them and try to, like, really get people to also think about them as a credit system. Right? So everybody has their own money printer and machine individually. So everybody there is no one circles. Right? Everybody, you know, all the 100,000 people that joined the system when this thing became viral are all issuing
their own circles, so to say. So everyone is their money printer. Go brr.
Kind of. Yeah. Yeah.
Kind of. Everyone gets the rights to, to burr the money printer.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And it only makes sense when you, issue it out to another person. Right? And you account for those promises as as real and equal between each other. Yeah. That's the idea. I mean and, of course, there will be many options of this. People will take it in their own directions and stuff, but that's also kinda what we want. You know? To decentralize it, we do also international assemblies. I just had one yesterday, or people from Costa Rica, Serbia, many parts joined, you know, Belgium also. They're starting their, you know, circles trying to figure out how to do it there, and we're just providing some materials to do that. Yeah. We had to create a structure for that because when it became when the circles launched, it was initially for Berlin, and it became global pretty fast because of crypto Twitter. And then we just had to figure out a way to, you know, get people who are actually interested in building an alternative. And now we do these assemblies, and it's nice. It's a nice way of, spreading these ideas.
I actually wanted to ask you about, the release because, I mean, I I admit that, unfortunately, I also miss I misunderstood, what Circles was in the beginning. I think just like everyone else on crypto Twitter, unfortunately. Yeah. I imagine the release must have been crazy because at first, I think my understanding along with probably most other people was that anybody could trust anybody, in the beginning, that you can just sort of make your own circles of trust. But in reality, it it it started from the I guess from Berlin, like, from the nucleus, and then and then spread out from there. So then everyone was just, like, spamming their circles link to to get trusted by random people on the Internet. I was like, this is defeating the purpose. What the hell are you guys doing? Everyone just, like, they just want their UBI, because they think it's just like a normal cryptocurrency that they can buy and sell. And then when they found out, seeing all the comments, people pissed off that they couldn't, they couldn't make gains from their, Circles coin. So what what was that like? It was crazy.
My yeah. The developers had it really rough, I think, because, of course, our servers broke down. We were not expecting this level of volume of, you know, attention. And it was also funny because we made an event in Berlin where all the businesses were there, and and they couldn't send money to each other. We're like, what's wrong? Like, this should work. And then we realized that on the other side, there were, like, people in The US, in The UK, in China, in Nigeria, in, you know, everywhere just trying to enter the system. And so it was kinda, like, clogging it somehow. And and, yeah, I I kinda, like, logged off that night and just checked again next the next day at 5PM, and it was just pure madness. You know? Like, we had, you know, thousands of people in, like, all these three different channels and everything kinda, like like, you know, went really crazy. And and it took us a while to, like, get the the ship the pirate ship back into steady waters. Yeah. And, I mean, people still to this day are like, what's the value of circles? You know? Where can I exchange it for you know, in which, the the decentralized exchange can I find it? And we're like, that's not how it works.
The circles is not on a it's not on a Uniswap? Or
No. People tried. People tried. Yeah. But we were like, you know, you're just kinda, like, commodifying yourself kind of, or commodifying your own promises, your own, you know, money, let's say, which is I mean, I guess, you know, if people wanna do that, that's fine. But there is no, you know, like, unique let's say, because circles is not a a a crypto a traditional crypto token, like a digital or collectible, like like Bitcoin is. You know, you cannot really make it have, like, a like, a price, so to say, you know, as a unity because it's a plurality by the sign. And so we did that on purpose to avoid the whole,
speculation over it and stuff, you know. And people are still trying to find ways to speculate.
Of course. I mean, this goes to show the colonization of money that we are all just thought to believe that money is a commodity and that therefore we can make more money out of it. And, you know,
and that's that's the challenge, you know. Mhmm. It it's sort of like, I don't know I don't know if you ever watched SpongeBob SquarePants, but there's a scene where they give away, free money and there's Patrick and SpongeBob going, free money, and then everyone's like they're all turning their heads. Free money? And then there's a huge line where they're just giving, like, bags of money to everyone. I'm going back in line. Free money? Free money. How can you make money with such a stupid idea? And how can you not make money with such a brilliant idea? At first, we didn't know what to do with all the money. We tried burying it, shredding it, and burning it. But in the end, we decided to just give it all away. Come again, sir. I'm getting back in line.
That's basically what we're trying to do. Yeah?
That was very funny. But, yeah, I I apologize for for my misunderstanding. I That was good. No. That was fine. Trying to make a I was just trying to make my own circles with my friends.
Of course. I mean, that was a problem, I think. I also it was, like, an unintended consequence, I guess. Because many people were right. I mean, they were like, oh, what do you mean this is unconditional? I have to find three people in Berlin to trust me, but I mean, I don't know. Utah. Sorry. Like, you know, we we didn't think about, like like, that this could happen. I mean, that this is the crypto when this could happen. And so that's why we started making these assemblies to try to, like, get people to come and, you know, have them on a on a Jitsi and get to know them a bit and see what they're up to and give them tools or how do they kinda get started. Then we have a handbook also. You can check it out at the handbookhandbook.joincircles.net. The graphics the graphic version is coming soon. Yeah. So, eventually, we also hope, that people will make their own instances of the web of trust so they can create their own local web of trust, and they can decide also. Like, maybe it's not three people, maybe it's not no people, maybe it's five people. You can choose. You know? We're even, I think because of technical reasons. I don't know if this is, the latest status. Maybe I should share this, but we're also thinking maybe of getting rid of these three trust connections thing just because there is this thing called the relayer within circles. I mean, the architecture, that always breaks down is pain in the ass, and we're just thinking, okay. Let's just get rid of it and figure out another ritual way where people can, you know, trust each other to enter and still, keep the because it's it's a way of making sure that there are not so many spam accounts happening. Right? That's the reason for this. So that if somebody makes a thousand fake accounts, and you trust them, it means that they can basically, through this transitive exchange, shop you out of your tokens and then just kinda suck them into another another fake account. So people shouldn't trust fake accounts. Right? That's the whole point that people, you know, people should just trust people that trust.
So then at the moment, the the Circle's network, is it largely restricted to Berlin or they're because I I saw as well people, like, they're trying to, like, do a a workaround where they add xDai into their, wallet, and then they, like, pay for it. And then Yeah. Yeah. There's this there's this hack that you can do where you can fund
the the relay, I think it is, and then, yeah, and then you can deploy your own circles, but then it's like you're alone. You know? You really have to trust other people to, like, getting this sort of exchange happening, which people do. Also, we have around haven't checked the latest stats, but we have around probably more than a 100,000 people that have successfully joined from all over the world, which doesn't really mean anything, other than that there is interest, which is nice. But in terms of actual activity, you know, we have emerging hubs in so saying, like, Costa Rica, There's now one in Serbia happening in Belgium, Portugal. Also, I heard of some communes that were thinking about using it, some towns also. On the more also, like, broader level, One thing I'm working on and this is also not just circles, beyond circles, but it's, an international network for of mayors and, like, local leaders that con that, you know because circles is not the only, basic income currency. Right? Like, there are there are already some attempts at doing this for years in, like, for example, in Brazil, there is a city called Marica, which has been, like, issuing out a basic income to, like, I believe, one third of the population there in a digital currency called the mumbuka. There's also one in Korea where a 170,000 people in the region of Kyunghee get a basic income with a local currency. And so we're trying to put all these things together and say, like, tell, like, local municipal, mayors, they listen. You can issue money. You can give people a basic income. Here are some ways in which you can do that. Right? And so that's also trying to, you know, do both. You're sort of like interrogating
or what's the right verb? Infiltrating the state with non state tools to for at least for money in that in that type of way, which is pretty interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. I mean, it's also part of the contradictions. Right?
That that's one thing that I wish sometimes for the left to be able to hold in their heads, to hold contradictions in their heads, to like to just know that there are going to be contradictions getting to whatever political goal you want to reach. And you know living with those contradictions and but just like knowing how to navigate them and like acknowledge them instead of just like being like, no. That's a contradiction. Stop. Because then it just, like, leads to nothing, I think. It leads to, like, you know, it just makes it more difficult to to do work and to organize and create action if there's if you get so hung up about this, you know, contradiction.
Totally. How do you how do you deal with contradictions? Personally,
I mean, I guess sort of how I said just sort of like I just keep it in my mind that, you know, I I already acknowledged beforehand that there are contradictions and that, you know, we live in a society and, you know, my my individual actions will not be able to, you know, change change society in a whole in the way that I would like to see it. So, you know, I I think I have to, I guess yeah. Like, allowing for contradictions and, like, I don't know a bit of maybe I don't know if, like, ego death might be too far. But, yeah. Just being being able to, to live with contradictions, I think, is important.
Yeah. Totally. I mean, it's it's also many many kind of also awkward alliances you have to make sometimes, especially in the crypto world, like, where a lot of the capital is sold by by crypto kings and so on, but also understanding that they cannot, you know, do any meaningful change on their own. So, you know, one of the things also I'm I'm trying to be really critical of and just trying to do is to figure out where and how to build bridges between the crypto world and social movements, that I'm a part of in Berlin, to create any, you know, meaningful change in the city in, like, different areas. You know? And that's something ongoing. I still haven't figured out exactly how to do that, but I think there are many potentialities there to actually make me crypto meaningful in any way. You know? Right now, it's just just for bullshit, basically, in my opinion. I mean, of course, not all of it is, but, but just mostly is for speculation, which is it's fine. I mean, you can do that, but, people speculate all the time. It's not just, you know, happy. It doesn't just happen in capitalism. The question is, like, how does it impact the rest of society, you know, especially now in these times that we're living. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. You're doing, you're doing God's work with that. It's something that, I think we need more people to be doing. And, yeah, it's a big reason why I started the platform. It's to highlight the people that are doing that and to make more people who are doing that, hopefully. Maybe one of my last questions is I'm curious if you have any lessons from the Circles UBI project so far. Like, is there anything that you think other projects who are maybe, sort of similar or trying to emulate the same type of approach that Circles is doing? Like, what can they take away from it when they're trying to make their sort of left wing, quote unquote, crypto or or blockchain project? I mean, definitely have have devs that you can trust, have programmers that you can trust, because they have a lot of power also,
you know, to change the system. I mean, I'm an I'm an economic anthropologist. Like, I don't, have no idea how to code Rust or anything like this, but I trust my debts. You know? That's one thing for sure. Also, you know, make sure that, yeah, I guess, understand the local context as well. I think many people try to do this, like, global first approach, and it really never works. I really always say, like, you know, that you have to think where your feet are. And that's really important to understand the local context and what are the needs there, and how can you embed your currency there in a in a way that's meaningful. I think oftentimes with, community currencies, we have also this thing we created last week called the Community Currency Alliance, where there are many, many different community currency products from all over the world, and and they're all really, really interesting in their approaches and stuff. But I think oftentimes what I've seen is that some of them, like, over the years I mean, this is more historic stuff, like, end up, stagnating over time because there isn't a a political, an economic, like, system or plan that embeds it with. You know? For me vision of the future. Like a vision. Yeah. Exactly. Like a political vision that encompasses their approach, and and that's also fine. I mean, some some currencies are just really, really local, like, hyperlocal, and that's totally fine. But I believe that if you're really, like, in, like, trying to contest this power structure that exists today, for me, it's basic income. Right? As a way of using this community currencies like this this credit money systems. It's just kind of a way of of trying to put that into practice and really trying to do that. But it can be anything. You know? So so I think that's also important, like, I guess, to have this this project somehow in your mind and also, have it really practical. Like, don't, theorize too much about it. I guess I that's also also my a lot of my, critique with a lot of, like, the the more academic, like, leftist that leftism is like it's just, you know, Ale Denken is all in the in the head. You know? People in Europe think that they can solve all their problems just by thinking about
them. I think it's wrong. If that was true, all my problems would have been solved long ago.
Yeah. I mean, it's fine, of course, to think and stuff like this, but there is this sort of, yeah, colonization of the future. But maybe that's a different conversation.
Maybe for maybe for the for our next conversation. Colonization of the future. Thanks a lot for for taking your taking the time, to speak. It was a really good conversation, and I learned a lot. And I think people who are listening, if they're thinking about making or starting a project, a left wing project using blockchain or crypto, then I'm sure they've learned a lot, and I hope they absorb the lessons, that Julio shared around Circles UBI. But to end it off, maybe you can share with us where people can keep up with you and your work, and with Circles.
Yeah. So you can, find me on Telegram as ajmaq, a a j m a q, at, amayan nawal. And then also on Twitter, I'm as julinalis. You can find me there. You can also make, your wallet at circles.garden and read more about sort of how we try to organize things at handbook.joincircles.net, to read more. And, yeah, I have some text here and there, but then you can find them, I guess, in nature if you want. But, yeah, I don't really have much time to write. I guess I'm really just focused on on practice these days.
But for preparer for preparation, for this interview, I did look up, some of your work, which I can I can add to the video description if people want to read it on on democratic money and and things like that? Oh, it'd be nice. Thank you. Alright. Well, thanks a lot and, yeah, we'll stay in touch. Good luck.
Yeah. Of course. Thank you. Gracias. Bye. Ciao.