Funding Musician Coops Using Community Tokens with Ampled
For this week's episode, I spoke with Austin Robey, cofounder of Ampled, a cooperatively owned music platform owned by artists and workers similar to Patreon. He recently published an article through Forefront titled “How Community Tokens Can Power Cooperatives.” During the interview we talk about how Ampled is working to create a cooperative alternative to Patreon for musicians, the struggle of raising funds for platform cooperatives, and the recent proposal he made for starting a community ...
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Hey, everyone. What you're about to listen to is a really interesting conversation I had with Austin Roby, a cofounder of Ampled Cooperative, which is a Patreon like platform for musicians. But before we start the interview, I wanted to remind people, if they haven't seen it, a while back, I announced a new project I've been working on with a few others in the crypto leftist community called Breadchain. It's essentially meant to be a left wing response to the conservative norms of the blockchain space. In short, it's a cooperative federation of blockchain projects looking to use decentralized technologies for a more progressive vision. So for more information on the project so far, be sure to check out the links in the episode description, including a short presentation I did at MoneyLab Berlin a couple months back. If you enjoy this episode with Austin, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend, and join the crypto leftist communities on Discord or Reddit. And if you find the content that I make important, you can pitch into my efforts starting at $3 a month on patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist to help me out and join the newest patrons like Alan and Vasile. Any amount really helps since making this stuff isn't free in terms of money or time. As a patron, you'll get a shout out on an episode like I just did and access to Patreon exclusive content like q and a episodes where you can submit and vote on questions you'd like me to answer and I'll give my thoughts in roughly twenty minutes, similar to the recent episode that I published on NFTs. Of course, I'll still be making free content like this interview to help spread the message that blockchain does not need to be used to further drench capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it. So if that message resonates with you, I hope you'll consider helping out. I hope you enjoyed this interview with Austin Roby from Ampled. Hello again. You're listening to The Blockchain Socialist. And today, I have Austin Roby. He is the cofounder of Ampled, which is a cooperatively owned music platform owned by artists and workers similar to Patreon. And he recently published an article through Forefront titled How Community Tokens Can Power Cooperatives. So, hey, Austin. How are you doing? Hey. Good to be here. So maybe to start off, maybe you could give an introduction a bit of what Ampled is, an introduction of yourself as well and what Ampled is and, like, the issues that it's trying to solve, for musicians.
Yeah. Ampled is, a web platform. It's like Patreon for musicians, that's formed as a coop. So we have two ownership classes, artist owners and worker owners. Artists become owners after 10 supporters. We have, you know, dozens of contributors helping build this platform that can become owners after eighty hours of work or six months. And, yeah, we've structured it as a coop, thinking about this question of, one, inspired by ideas of platform cooperativism and these questions of who's generating value, who's capturing it. And I think, specifically of to the kind of online tools that we use to have them owned by the people that rely on them instead of VC investors that seek a financialized return? So we have, yeah, we've started it about a couple years ago and opened up the platform, I guess, like, nearly a year ago today. And based in in New York, have, home base at New Inc. It's the new museum cultural incubator in Downtown Manhattan. But we have people working on this, all over, the West Coast, most people in New York, but also in Europe, some people in Canada. So, yeah, it's it's a way to provide direct recurring support to artists done as a co op and really just functioning more like a a collective. So it's basically if I understand right, it's like as a
as a if you want to support an artist that's on Apple, you can give I think it's is it $5 or $3 starting, in order to support them in helping them make music? Right. So the way that we've
set up how artists are supported, it's the same, for each artist. So you can support an individual artist for $3 a month or whatever you want above that. So what we've done is kinda just remove all the tiers and just have every every artist is on a support what you want model. So the the goal of that is, one, just, like, reduce some, like, weird transactional vibes of, like, one, coming up with tiers of deliverables that are somewhat arbitrary and hard to price and, like, not always, like, native to a creative's practice, and not gatekeeping people that can't afford certain things out of things. I think, like, on on Patreon, if you have, you know, let's say, like, a $5.10, $20 tier, a lot of the people that are doing the higher end tiers might not want the, like, Zoom call every month, you know, or or the extra perks. They really just want to support. So, really, like, in in thinking about how artists are supported through Ampl, trying to, yeah, trying to just, like, capture the spirit that's within, like, grassroots independent music, which is just, like, the spirit of community support because you want to, not necessarily because you're getting anything in return.
Yeah. That's but maybe an attack on me, but, I have I have, like I think I have $3.05, and $10, but I have no, like, if if you're a $10 supporter, I'm sorry. I don't really have anything that's like we can you can you can, like, message me. We can have a Zoom call. Sure. But, I didn't want to put that because I feel it's so, like yeah. It it there's something strange about it that's like and I don't think that someone wants to pay, like, you know, $20 to have a Zoom call with every single, maybe, person that they that they support. Sometimes it's just they have the means to do so, and they want to support your work. Yeah. I mean, what we've what we found is that, the average support is over twice the minimum amount. So it's Okay. Probably, like, $6.30
through Ample now. I think, like, probably really close to what it is at Patreon too, just the average of what each individual supports. So I think, like, you don't necessarily need, tangible benefits. And, you know, for a musician, which Ample does, like, explicitly for musicians, There's also this question of time being something that that is valued and, like, really critical to a creative practice. So having to manage different tiers of monthly deliverables, you know, does have, like, some negative, like, externalities or consequences of, like, of a creative practice of, like, just having to manage all those different things. Who's getting stickers? Who's getting pins? Who's getting who's getting this? But, just having, like, one uniform model makes easier. Internally, we call it, the or, like, a Fugazi model, where, like, Fugazi had every show of theirs was $5. Like, all of them were all ages. So, like, very simple, very inclusive. And the results end up being this similar, if not better.
Yeah. Yeah. Why why musicians? Is it because, like, you are a musician yourself? Or, was there something, like, particular you want to focus on on that?
Me and, a friend, Colin, kind of were first kicking around this idea, and we both played in bands in Brooklyn and, like, toured and stuff. And not that we were necessarily working musicians, but it's, like, a very core part of our identities and what we did on the weekends and etcetera. We have and just kind of anecdotal. I mean, I guess if you're in Brooklyn long enough, it's like we have been, then we just have a lot of friends that are in touring bands. And I just think, you know, especially two years ago or two and a half years ago, there were a lot of bands that I think, like, people would perceive as being very successful, but there was kind of, like, this asymmetry of lifestyle. You know? Like, there was there was, kind of, like, a a challenge of of people being able to play, sold out shows, but still struggling. They're they're you know, this not being able to capture value. And then also just kind of being, like, feeling like Patreon wasn't the place for them. So I think, like, musicians are uniquely image conscious in a way, and I think, like, things have changed quite a bit where Patreon is, like, much more accepted as a cultural model. But, I think when we were first kicking around this idea, we're like, well, none of our friends are on Patreon, but when we talk to them, like, this idea of direct recurring support or direct patronage makes sense. So, like, if we can build something specifically for musicians, then, that might have benefit. And I think, you know, the the reason also just for picking one kind of, like, vertical or category, not only is just, like, what we care about most, but, feel like you can just have a better, more focused product. I think, like Yeah. In the Silicon Valley, kind of like default ethos is to pick as large of an addressable market as possible and to try to monetize that. Content creators. Right. Like, creator as an umbrella, you know? And, yeah, for for Patreon, that means YouTubers, podcasters, like, I've been like, nonprofits, like, I've seen now, and ads for fitness instructors. There was an ad campaign to try to get restaurants and chefs on the platform. And it's at a certain point, when you're trying to be everything for everyone, you're just kind of, like, a very mediocre service that isn't that great for anyone. And and all these categories are very different needs, very different desires. So it kinda just feels like like a no brainer. Like, I think, like, a category specific version of of Patreon for any kind of creator could be a better platform, better experience, and, like, a better community as well.
It's it's a bit uncomfortable for me, like, how, how, like, I don't know, like, the, like, GoFundMe's and, like, Patreon as well. It's sort of like now you need to sort of for people in particular industries, like, if you just were supported in the economy as it was, then you wouldn't have this problem. But, like, unfortunately, we do, have this problem. Like, it's a shame, like, you know, like, a chef on Patreon, like, if they just got a well paying chef's job, maybe they wouldn't need to use Patreon.
Right. Yeah. There's this question of, like, what what are the problems tech is even supposed to solve? You know, like, you know, we've we've had some conversations about, like, well, what are kind of, like, the the core member needs the people would have? And, you know, one of the things that would come up is, like, health insurance. That's something that that, like, freelancers, co ops, or to take care of. And it's just it's difficult to think of, like, well, why is this our job to like, shouldn't the government just be giving everyone health care? Like, this is really hard for, a like, a ragtag bootstrap group of people to try to figure out how to get, like, collective health insurance. Like this is something that's not Yeah. Maybe it's not our job. Yeah. This feels like a uniquely American, like, way to look at it where, you know, we're looking at companies to solve all these societal problems for us. And, like, at a certain point, I think that it's, like, internalizes, like, a neoliberal mindset in some ways. So, yeah, I think, like, we'd like to see, better access to health care for artists. The question is, like, is it is that responsibility ours to to work to to fix?
I I imagine the difference here at least with with formula coop is that, you know, you have the the democratic tools in order to use the power of, you know, your the entire group to, you know, fight for, universal health care in America or something like that.
Yeah. I think and and, I mean, that's the the key opportunity is just, like, when you get a group of people together, you're, you know, a much more powerful constituency. So, yeah, I think, you know, it's also just been important for us to focus on, like, the core mission and and really just thinking, like, what are, you know, what are what are member needs? And that's really derived from just listening to members. So, like, you know, when we're thinking of, directions to go and priorities, it's largely just from members. So it's less done in kind of, like, a top down way and more of, like, a a bottom up way of, like, defining what our priorities are as an organization. What I also found interesting,
about Ample, is that actually, according to the article that you published, that there are quite a few people, that were former employees of other similar platforms like Patreon and Kickstarter and and and Spotify even. Is that correct? Yeah. There's,
yeah, a handful of people that have helped out with Ample that are former Kickstarter employees, Also, part of Kickstarter union, which I think was maybe, like, the first, like, tech union in history, at least of, like, a mature start up. And, yeah, a couple of people that were former employees of Patreon, couple of people from Spotify too. I think there's there's different reasons for all those people coming to help, and join. And, you know, the the way that we've grown our base of, like, contributors and workers has largely just been from people emailing us and reaching out. So, yeah, I don't know. It's it's interesting to think of why I think, like, one, Kickstarter, you know, is a public benefit corporation that became unionized. I think there's, like, a self selecting quality to the culture there. You know, clearly, not that Kickstarter was perfect. It seems it was imperfect, which is, you know, I think maybe why why people aren't there anymore, but, I think there are a lot of people there that don't care about an exit. You know, Kickstarter said they weren't going to sell the company or go public. So there's the people that have worked at Kickstarter are are like, that I've met are just, like, really amazing people. And so, yeah, there's something about it that has drawn people to Ample. And a lot of times people show up, and they recognize people that they have worked with. Like, oh, you're here? So that's been interesting. And then, yeah, former Patreon people as well that I think, like, were drawn to this, this mission, and, you know, I think everyone they're gonna they're gonna, like, dedicate your your working life to to working on a product. Like, the fact that it could benefit creatives, I'm sure it's, like, really attractive, but I think, it's probably just, like, a bit of a a growing dissonance or malaise of seeing, like, of, like, the heavy handedness of, like, investors having more power, questionable decision making by management. And so I think, like, for, tech workers and and most of the people that work with Ample are musicians as well, A lot of the the motivation is just, like, working on a new model and, like, a desire for a seat at the table in some way. Like, some some, like, structural way of of having an organization that is accountable and responsive to the workers. So I think that's largely the reason why Kickstarter unionized in the first place was just not having, like, a seat at the table and, like, strategic conversations. And when people get laid off, like, recently at Patreon, like, that just becomes very, very clear.
Yeah. I I I think I I saw your tweets. I think it was earlier today. It was like decentralized accountable organizations.
Yeah. I just yeah. There's a lot of talk about DAOs, and I don't yeah. I I don't even
know where to start because I don't I think accountability is getting to the to the root. It's more clearly defining what I think people are looking for in their work, like, in the organizations that they're taking part in. When you say, like, decentralized autonomous organization, it's sort of like, okay. Everything's automated, but then what? You know, like, what does that what does that necessarily mean for me? Like, it sort of just assumes that, like, efficiency gains are, like, always positive and always gonna benefit you, and that isn't necessarily always the case. So accountability and having, you know, a democratic say in what your what your company does with the surplus value that it extracts from you. Right.
I mean, it's pretty simple. And it's it's a question that, like, yeah, you you just wonder. I think, like, one we're just trying to, like, ask simple questions sometimes and, like, just sometimes very simply just asking who owns x company. And then it, like, it's it's it occurs to really smart people that they've never even really thought about this before. I don't think many people at the Kickstarter union or maybe none of them actually, like, know who owns Kickstarter.
Which probably should be pretty important if you're a union and want to leverage, you know, your worker rights.
I mean yeah. But I I do think just, like, some some way to hold management accountable some way that management is accountable to the workers just, like, seems like a very important mechanism, but it's, yeah, it's really just nowhere. I don't know if I've seen that at, like, startups.
Yeah. Yeah. It's just sort of like, we got a million dollars, so some guys over there don't worry about it. Yeah. Pretty much. Or it's like, you know, people saying congrats.
No one asking, like, what the terms were. None of the, like, workers ever knowing what a liquidation, you know, preference the investors got. So like, okay, you're working really hard for some kind of exit, and then when you do, you have no idea if you'll benefit at all if, like, the crumbs or the options that you've been given would be worth anything. I think, like, yeah, that level of financial transparency of, like, just knowing what's in agreements, like, what kind of agreements are being made with investors just seems really, really important. But, yeah, I guess it's kinda like seen as something not that employees are not supposed to ask about.
One of the biggest sort of, or more obvious solutions, I guess, for us on the left in terms of this, like, dissonance between, like, you know, what, how your relationship between, you and, like, the organization that you're working for is are co ops and worker co ops. And while they sound really good in in theory, it's kind of strange that there aren't more around as it is, but, as many people who probably know if they've looked into it, a lot of the problems, revolve around funding since, like, you know, in the capitalist economy we have today, the logic is that people should constantly be looking for profitable ventures in some sort of financial sense, and while co ops are owned by the workers, that means that you can't really exploit the labor of those workers so that you can maximize your profit. So it's not like a great profit maximizing, like, investment and compared to, like, a normal startup like Kickstarter or or whatever else. So I guess, are are these the type of, struggles that I guess you guys have been having with Ampled? And was that sort of maybe the is this inspiration is the right word for, like, looking into community tokens?
Yeah. I mean, that is that is the problem. Like, I was at, I mean, fundraising for cooperatives is so hard. I'm speaking as someone who is, like, principally responsible for, looking to fundraising resource Ampled. Like, just as an example, I went to a platform cooperative conference in New York, I guess, in 2019, and there was, a panel called the capital conundrum, like, the challenges of, of funding cooperatives. And on stage, I don't think there was anyone that had either invested in a a co op or a co op that had received investment. And I just was thinking, like, a panel on investing at TechCrunch would have, like, people that have raised and invested a ton of money. Like, this just there's such a gap here of just, like, practitioners. Like, who's actually doing it? Who's actually writing the checks, to co ops? So it's it's really, really hard. I've learned that it's hard for several reasons. One, you're just, like, deep disqualified from any kind of, like, traditional equity investments. The vocabulary that that early stage tech investors have does not apply. Like, you're not selling equity. Convertible notes don't make sense. Just like the normal instruments just don't really apply in a cooperative lens because you're not really selling ownership. You're not selling control. And some of the alternatives, you know, you think maybe grants, maybe nonprofits would support, interesting, cooperative interest, especially I think there's, like, a growing consensus that, like, if you're seeking economic justice, this like, these are really effective organizations for, you know, for driving equality, like, on a number of fronts. But the problem is cops are inherently for profit companies, so they're disqualified largely from, like, grants that, like, see themselves as only supporting nonprofits. Yeah. So I guess, like, what are you left with? You could try to seek out, like, very friendly angel investors, I guess, on very specific terms. Like, we had some friends that invested. We we developed revenue share loans, for investment. So, like, a loan that's repaid back with a small percentage of revenue to a capped return. It's, like, to a capped three x return. And even that's kind of like there's differing opinions in the in co op circles of, like, is that sort of extractive? Like, what you know? I just I don't think so because I think it's still, like, a tremendous risk for the investor for, like, a a limited upside, on whatever timeline. We don't even know. But, yeah, there are some organizations looking at that are actually providing funding. Like, start dot coop is a accelerator for cooperatives, and we participated in their second cohort, so received some funding from there. And we, were lucky enough to receive, a few grants this summer, that were kind of, like, very specific to what we were doing. So one is for Center for Cultural Innovation in LA, supporting, like, projects that were exploring alternative economies for artists, and then one from Grant for the Web, which is supported by Coil and Mozilla and Creative Commons. So but it really doesn't add up to the kind of, like, financial support that that a traditional startup could could get. And that's even considering just how fortunate I think we have been to this point. So, yeah, it just seems like a huge riddle of, like, how to solve this capital conundrum. Like, on one hand, impact investors could step up. I think, like, impact investors are, like, more driven by returns than they should be. They probably don't consider, ownership as a criteria for investment as much as, like, environmental concerns. So I think there's a lot of room for, like, the impact investment community, which is a, like, a lot of capital to, like, just start thinking about ownership. That's one way to solve the problem is to shift the culture and and kind of, like, impact investing. But then, yeah, just coming around to seeing what kind of capital is unlocked, in the crypto space, seeing varying degrees of democratic type organizations as well. And just, yeah, just wondering, I you know, and I don't speaking as someone that doesn't have all the answers, like, I'm very much in the process of learning, but, yeah, is there something here? Is there is there something that we could take from this, apply to through, like, a cooperative lens and and think about, like, well, how do we resource these things? And how do we do it in a way that, like, we're still, we're still autonomous. We're still, like, accountable to ourselves. We don't have to answer to anyone else, but, like, how do we, yeah, how do we broaden the community? How do we get community support in? How do we align incentives? How do like, we have, you know, intrinsic, like, intrinsic motivations, but, like, could there be some extrinsic motivations for for supporting what we're doing? Like, I don't know. But, I've been thinking about, yeah, community tokens as a potential answer.
Yeah. I guess, it's sort of like on one side with the investors, it is still a bit of like sort of just hoping and like, you know, pleading to people with a lot of money that they that they can give you some and then like, you know, that you have to hope that the type of impact that you want to make is, like, the same type of impact that person, like, really cares about, which, you know, there's a lot and, you know, there's a lot of different types of, types of things to care about in the world. Whereas I think, for me, community tokens sort of represent, and I still think there needs to be a a lot of experimentation, which is why I'm really curious to see how Ample goes goes through with it. But it's sort of like and it isn't a new idea, but it's like we're just going to make our own money. And then, like, it's it's compared to, I don't know, attaching yourself to the, like, US dollar or something like that and solely, thinking of value just in the context of the US dollar, which is something that we have very little control over or you there's a lot of you have to comply to what the free market wants you to do in order to, like, get you some. Whereas on the other side, you can just be like, no, fuck you. We're just going to make our we're just gonna make our own money and then, you know, we will sort of value that as we will. And, you know, if you want some, well, okay. Give us your US dollars so we can pay rent.
Yeah. No. I've been looking into just more more types of project and initiatives that are, like, firmly in kind of like a solidarity economics space, like, local currencies, like Ithaca hours. You know, this is kind of like how I would explain I think this is how I explained the concept of, like, a community token to my mom. I was like, well, you know, do you know Ithaca, New York has their own currency? And, it's accepted by local businesses there. You can get it at certain banks. And the idea is that you can only spend it at the local restaurant, not Applebee's. You know? And that money instead instead of going to wherever the corporate headquarters is No one should be eating at Applebee's Right. First off. Especially during a pandemic. That money gets recirculated, locally and helps regenerate community wealth. And I think there's, like, a part of just, like, community pride that is interesting too. Like, you know, whatever town you're in, if you have, like, your own version of, like, a local currency, like, there's some, like, novelty to that that would be, like, fun. You feel like you're supporting your community. And so just thinking of the ample community, like, a digital town, basically. Like, what if we had our own version of, like, a local currency, and we could use that to, like, regenerate wealth and and circulate, you know, services? It's it's an idea that, like, that artists have had since some of the first conversations, which was some element of skill sharing, you know, that if you have needs and resources and you connect those, it's kind of the basis for an entire economy. So, yeah, I I think still in exploration phase, but thinking of, like, it would be really interesting to have, like, a community token. Think of it as, like, an ample local currency that could go that could pay people that are contributing value to the network. So that could be people writing code. It could be people that are supporting us through our community page. It could be artists, that are onboarding their supporters onto the platform. Yeah. It just feels like there's a there's an interesting opportunity and some other things that just become unlocked. Like, you know, if if this community token idea or local currency, however you wanna think about it, like, ends up having some kind of agreed upon value that's relatable to the US dollar, it it becomes it it's kind of like another tool that we have to continue resourcing the organization, which I think just ends up helping solve some of the the problems that, you know, are intrinsic to the the co op model in itself. Because it's it's not really about fundraising. It's about resourcing. And the way that we've been thinking about it is, like, well, so far, instead of focusing on money, we've been focusing on collective labor. Like the money would be used to pay for labor. So why don't we just all as owners build it? Like that seems, you know, I guess, yeah, thinking about this and without the emphasis on on on money and more just like, how do we resource this thing? How do we feed the baby?
Yeah. Because in a way, at least recognizing that people are putting in, you know, their labor towards the project, how can you represent that which in the future will probably reward them in something whether it be in, you know, services within within the community, which is probably the ideal or, the other potential of just selling that token, for some money because that's what you need at the moment. Yeah. Right. I think
it's probably unlikely that kind of, like, a directory of skill sharing would be, like, enough to, like, value in itself to, like, work full time on something because not everyone's landlord is gonna accept Ample community tokens. Your landlord doesn't take Ample coin? I mean, ideally, you know, if we do this initiative, that'd be just really cool to for someone out there to do that. But, yeah, I think the ability for someone that's contributing to Amble to be able to pay rent based on those contributions is important. So it's yeah. It's just, it it feels just like a puzzle of trying to figure out how to do this, in a way that's consistent with it being a cooperative. I think if we, like, launched a very hyped governance token, like, it it it would feel pretty easy, but I think, the challenge is the one member, one share, one vote. So, like Yeah. What is it? What does the token get you? It's a little bit more challenging for us.
Yeah. There's definitely at the moment, like, the token governance models are really you're paying with your money or you're you're voting with your money. Sorry. Like, each each it's like each dollar is a vote, which is not really, in alignment with cooperative values. But maybe to help people understand a bit more of what community tokens are and what they're like. Of course, we can think of them as sort of digital local currencies in which you can pay for them within your little digital town. In this case, the digital town would be Ampled. Maybe you could talk a bit about the example of the artist RAC and how he's been using, the community token, not necessarily would be the same as what you guys are doing, but to give an example for people, so that they can sort of visualize how that works.
Yeah. And just to go back to the idea of, like, the local town currency idea, we would still have a platform that accepts US dollars and sending US dollars to artists. So the idea is not to replace that just to, like, to symbolize the value that people are providing to the network. But but yeah. I mean, REC is just, like, really, really savvy guy who's just kind of, like, at the front of a lot of crypto creator conversations, and part of a lot of really cool projects. And, yeah, launched RAC launched a community token, I guess, last October. And, yeah, it's it's interesting because it you know, although he's a successful artist on Patreon, it feels kind of like a model to replicate and replace that that type of patronage, which is, like, he minted these community tokens, issued them out to people that had already supported him, bought stuff on Bandcamp. You know, maybe it was, like, tickets or newsletter sign ups or people that have been, like, giving direct recurring patronage to him. And the idea is that people could claim these these tokens and then use them to get into, like, the token gated private Discord community, get early access to merch or releases. So, like, the benefit yeah. The there's just, like, a benefit and reward for for being a supporter already. It's not like it was being sold, but it helped, like, you know, reaffirm community pride. Probably just, like, give people a sense of wanting RAC to become more successful, like, you know, some kind of, like, shared stake or feeling like there's a shared stake in in the artist. So yeah. And, you know, the perks are cool, but I think, like, the cool thing is developing an economy around an artist. And, you know, when you look at, you know, like, the numbers and see that there's, like, you know, a dollar of or, you know, dollar value of, say, $4 per token, there's 10,000,000 tokens. It's all, like, kind of, like, done in a market deterministic way. But the other really cool thing is RAC is using these tokens itself to reward, moderators on Discord or people helping out, like, fans that are helping out in certain ways. So, like, you know, in a lot of I think there's just it's not a one to one correlation with kind of what we're thinking about, but just interesting parallels. I think, like, the idea of creating your own currency and using that to reward a community and and helping, like, reward labor that's, that's being, you know, collectively put towards, like, you know, something that is for the greater good of everyone in the communities
seems really interesting. For some people listening, I imagine the thought of putting an economy around an artist might be a little bit like like, they might hesitate at at at that notion. Like, what what would you say to people who may think that, because I've heard criticisms of community tokens and these different social tokens as sort of, like, the financialization of, like, social relationships or something like that. I'm just wondering if if you have any thoughts on that, from from your perspective, like, as an artist and, like, working with artists. Like, how do you prevent, for example, I don't know, someone someone, like, does a pump and dump of RAC coin or something or of Ampled coin. Well, the the tricky question is who's
controlling this currency? And, yeah, like, again, just what kind of accountability is there? Like, RAC is not a democracy. Like, he's an artist. Right? And, like, it's very much not a democracy. But I think, like, there seems to be more, opportunities of using these tokens within already democratic structures. So the idea is, like, you know, if if Ampled were to launch a a community token, that would be collectively managed by elected representatives. That would have some kind of, like, its own safeguards. And, yeah, I think, the question around financialization is a good one. And and, you know, so much of, like, from the genesis of starting this cooperative platform has been nonfinancialized, like, in every single way. Like, the motives of people joining very much in, like, a self selecting way. Like, the, you know, the upsides have always been unclear, for the people working on it. So I think, like, if if we if you already have a democratic governance structure in place, you already have, like, a nonfinancialized, like, culture vibes that have been curated, then, like, is there a moment to introduce some level of financialization in there that actually is to the benefit of of growing that network for everybody that's in it? That's where I think maybe the answer is yes, and that's speaking from someone that's like, you know, at every turn has leaned against financializing the project that we're working on. But, like, a core goal that's in everyone's benefit is being self sustaining and and making sure that we can do this, you know, without the needs for outside investors.
Yeah. I I have to say, it is really interesting. I mean, we talked about this, before we were recording, but, I remember when I was first following you and and Ampled that, I mean, you were pretty skeptical of crypto and and not very positive about it. And so, yeah, I I I'm curious to hear about, how you how how your mind changed around it to yeah. I mean, write this article about community tokens now for for cooperatives because, I imagine there could be some people who are listening who are still quite skeptical. They're like, oh, wow. You're using it for for cooperatives, though? What is what is it? How are you combining those two things? Yeah. I I mean, the skepticism is is totally
acceptable and normal. Yeah. I think, I just looked at the crypto community, probably saw it just didn't really seem like something that I wanted to be a part of. I think because, you know, I I I think I maybe, perceived it or conflated it with, kind of, like, libertarian tech bros. Like Yeah. I really don't like a vision of the future where everything is a stock market. And so much of it kinda, like, internalizes a Neil Lib bias and kind of just, like, simulates some of, like, the same systems that we have now, but, like, on steroids. But I think, yeah, I I mean, I've just past, like, six months or so just been on, like, a bit of, like, a personal research journey. Just, like, trying very hard personally not to dismiss things that I don't, you know, maybe fully grasp. And I think it's really just about, like, you know, a lot of the crypto community uses the analogy of Legos, you know, like, DeFi being financial Legos. And it's like, well, we should learn how to build with those. Like, I I think, like, it's really just a question about, like, tech and financial literacy, like, of of technology is not going away and, like, you know, wouldn't it be great if we could figure out, like, a more fluid, consistent, and ideologically consistent way to to resource and fund cooperatives, that would be great. I mean, then we'd see many more cooperatives. So I think, yeah, just really trying to, like, look at projects out there as precedents. Some that, like, have varying degrees of things that are interesting, like, very, you know, like, investment DAOs or syndicates that are, like, collectively run. That's interesting. But, yeah, there's also, like, people's BS radars are right to go off too because at the same time, there's so much, that's just really marketing. And, yeah, I think the other thing to look out for is, like, a lot of community washing. People talking about community ownership, like, very loosely. It's unclear exactly what that means to some people. A lot of ownership washing. Just talking about, like, just throwing around the word ownership, but not really considering that, like, there's, like, a very specific suite of powers that come with real ownership. So, yeah, I think there's there's just room for other voices and, you know, a lot of design space to be thinking about the stuff, like, through, you know, not to make it too political, but, yeah, from, like, a leftist
perspective. You can be political. Don't worry. No. Yeah. There it it is interesting, like, how it's sort of, like I I I remember reading something. It was, like, you know, it was like a manager speaking to speaking to someone, and he was, like, how do I make, my employee feel like he has ownership without giving him ownership? There's a lot of, like, that type of thinking. Like, how can we give them the feeling of x, which is, like, you know, has much larger, broader implications and would challenge that person's power, but without actually giving it to them. Right. Yeah. I've been just thinking about this,
analogy of, like, owning a bakery. And it's like, if someone has said that you're an owner in the location, what's what's on the menu, what's being produced. You have no route directly or indirectly to hold management accountable. Like, does is that ownership? Like, I think that, the crypto community seems to conflate ownership with, like, some exposure to upside, and they're not the same things. Definitely agree there. So, yeah, just the fact that there's a token in saying that its ownership is not necessarily true. Like, it has to include some kind of accountability. Like, who's making the proposals, that people vote on Snapshot? Who's, who's in charge of the treasury? Like, and granted, there probably are a lot of organizations that have done this, like, very thoughtfully, but there's also a lot that are simulating ownership.
Speaking about ownership, one of the ways that you have ownership is by joining a cooperative. And when you're in a cooperative, I imagine you want to be able to express, like, that ownership, that power. So I was wondering and and thinking about that ownership within the context, I think there's, like, the what is it? Like, the seven seven principles of of cooperatives or something like that. Like, what are your thoughts around designing community tokens around that sort of, like, ethos, that cooperative ethos?
Well, put on the spot, I couldn't I don't have all the seven.
You don't have them memorized? Or
but I think the largely the key distinction for cooperatives is one member, one vote, which is, like, at odds with and, like, token weighted governance. Like you mentioned, you could it's pretty much it's or it's not that different from, kinda like a stake weighted ownership of a public company. Like, you have the ability to purchase more power. So, yeah, this is I think, it seems like the key challenge of applying idea of of, like, community tokens with cooperatives is just being consistent with one member, one share, one vote. And when I think about it, a lot of the utilities that tokens tend to serve, in the crypto space are already taken care of by our cooperative structure. We already have democratic governance mechanisms. We already have ways to vote on things, introduce proposals. We already have, like, ownership baked in legally. It's not necessarily in code, but it's kind of like legal and operating agreement. So, yeah, I think the way that I would think about it is is that it's it's not a community token, wouldn't represent a financial interest in the organization or governance power. It's just, like, an intangible Chuck E. Cheese coin that we're using that, like, maybe is imbued with the value of, like, the trust or community that we have. Like, nothing more, nothing less, really. I think and tokens could do more, but, like, our organization already does a lot of those things. So I think in making them consist in making, like, a community token consistent with the cooperative, it's largely just removing the power from the token. And, like, it or, like, removing the emphasis on coded power to, like, legal power.
One one of the ways that I've been thinking about this issue of in keeping the one member, one vote at least in the in the context of cooperatives when in combination with maybe cryptocurrencies. Is that right? The the issue with blockchains, right, is that you can do civil attacks. Like, one person can make as many wallets as they want. So even if you say, like, you know, within the code only, you know, you can only vote on this thing one time while you just go and make another wallet and, you know, so therefore you can take advantage of them of the money that you have. So the way that the standard sort of crypto, world has sort of handled that is by purchasing your votes, and just leaving it up to the free market because that's all it can really do because you can't really handle identity in that type of way. In the context of cooperatives though, your civil resistance is in your cooperative itself. The legal structure of the cooperative is your, legal resistance. So if you, like, express your power, like, the real types of situation or, decisions you have to make, you do that through the cooperative, and there you are. Like, the cooperative is civil resistance because you can't, you know, people are gonna probably find out that you're, like, two different people. And you have that community, to sort of enforce that. And then the cryptocurrency aspect is secondary. Like, that's the thing that's sort of like, the inner core is your cooperative structure and, like, your community where everyone where people know each other. And then on the outside, you have the cryptocurrency and that's sort of like an added benefit because you need to use or you would like to use a digital space and, like, try to, economically express, particular things with your community token.
Yeah. I mean, I guess just back to, like, Ithaca hours as an example, like, you know, it's not the it's not the the people with the most local currency that get to have more votes for mayor. You know what I mean? It's it's still just done by people. And, you know, like, we're not like a a massive community of hundreds of thousands of of members. I mean, we have we have over a 100 members, ish. But, yeah, this like, we just don't need a global computer powered by, like, cryptographic technology to have effective voting. It's just not like a tech it's not a tech solution that we we need to function as an organization.
Maybe for, some of the one of the last questions, I mean, I'm curious to hear if you have any recommendations for people who like, any artists people should check out on on Ampled.
I would, check out Lizzie Ngo. Man, I I follow a lot of artists on, on Ampled. I really like Doves and Cremation Lily. I would also give a shout out to, the three artists on our board of directors, Ziemba, Barry Stephenson, and Julia Mark. And yeah. And, Jonathan Mann, who does, records a song every single day,
is on Ampled. Is that the the song a day guy? Yeah. On on YouTube.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he he moved from Patreon to Ampled, which is also interesting. It's not the easiest thing to do, because companies like that build moats that make it difficult to leave. But, but yeah, he's like saw the benefit of like a cooperative platform and community and just asked his Patreon supporters to leave Patreon and rejoin
on Ampled. That's awesome. Well, nice. Yeah. Those I basically went through the end. I was just gonna ask if where can people keep up with you and what's happening at Ample? Does it was it is there anything else that you really wanted to talk about that I forgot to mention?
Well, I just, would say that, if anyone's interested in the project, go to ample.com. Reach out to us. Consider supporting an artist. If you're an artist, also, go ahead and I'd encourage you to join. You can also come to one of our new artist meetings and meet some of the existing artist owners. Or if you're not an artist and just wanna support the platform, you can go to ample.com/community and become a community member, which are actually, like, you know, voting participants
in the coop. Nice. And where can people keep up with you and, and the goings on at at Ampled otherwise?
I'd say sign up to our newsletter or, follow us on Instagram or Twitter.
Cool. Everyone, you should go check out ample.com. And, you can also check out Austin's recent piece published through Forefront called How Community Tokens Can Power Cooperatives, which I'll leave in the show notes. So check that out. Thanks, Austin. Thank you.