Completely dressed in, like, tight silver clothes with, like one inch. Was that one inch? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that was kinda gross, to be honest. Like Yeah. It was pretty,

misogynistic tech bro type. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And they were There's, like, people were, like, yeah. We're changing the world. Yeah. We're, like, we're, like, helping people. And it's, like, dude, like but there is, yeah, there is a sound like hypocrisy where, everybody is is very wealthy. Yep. But so, like, people kind of people kind of pay, I'd say people pay homage or or there's like a certain it's in the same way that, like, Donald Trump, when he came to power, he, like, used the language of occupy Mhmm. Language of radicalism, but it's it was just language. And and the thing is people often kind of confuse, like, radical sounding language with actual, like, radical philosophy. Mhmm. And not and and and there are a lot of kind of movements that make use of this. So people just kinda take them at face value, and it's it's completely the same in crypto. So Mhmm. In you see, like, there is, like, a certain way of talking or, like, certain, like, you know, catchy words or phrases that if you say, like Decentralization. Yeah. For example, decentralization or or, like, you know, social good or whatever, you know, like, or cypherpunk ideas. Yeah. You you say some you you you just say some things and people, like, accept you into into that crowd. You know? So It's like saying a passphrase to, like, get into the club a little bit, but everybody knows a passphrase anyways. Yeah. Exactly. It's it's like, there's some secret, kind of codes, but I I wouldn't call them symbols because, like, a symbol is something that has, like, more deeper meaning attached to it. So we could say that these used to be symbols, but they've they've been, like, turned into signs. So there's this, like, kind of sign language that people are, like, constantly signing to. Yeah. Like, some people call that, like, virtual virtue signaling. So there's all this, like, signaling that's happening. But the, you strip that away, and there's, like, nothing there that remains except some kind of, like, nihilism. And that's why you see, this new, super rich class where, they kinda and you see an eith where people, pretend that they hate money or that money is is bad, yet at the same time, they live, like, incredibly, like, decadent lifestyles where you go to these conferences, some of the parties are like cost like upwards of 200 k. Mhmm. Like just for one night of a of a party where everybody's like really, super high on on different loads of substances. And as you said, like, the the the whole bro culture thing with the women and stuff like that. So, you know, I feel like if you have wealth, and you're you're kind of, you have that responsibility and, you know, you have a philosophy, there is gonna be always like a certain part of you which is is is gonna be dedicated to that philosophy. So you're gonna kind of, want to maximize your impacts and effects. The problem is is that, there is this misguided idea that, we can do the revolution, but we can have fun at the same time. But, actually, they're they're two separate things. So, you know, like, it's important to, like, divide a line. And, you know, if people wanna have fun, they they can have fun, but, like, they shouldn't delude themselves into thinking that they're doing the revolution. Actually, they're they're taking themselves away from doing the revolution. To do the revolution, it's hard work. It take, like, discipline. It take dedication. Ultimately, we're doing it because there's, like, the reward or, like, the promise of, like, a a, of, more, vibrant, stronger society.

Yeah. That that's a that's, something in from Silicon Valley, which is, you know, I can make a million dollars and change the world at the same time. Mhmm. So, you know, actually, in in terms of the left, the kind of the worst thing that happened to the left is, I I think, kind of in in the sixties, it was a very kind of mixed time. You had, like, a lot of very good, collective, kind of socialist movements, political movements. For example, the anti war protests, they were very organized. They went every day protesting in a systematic way, knocking doors. And they actually managed to stop that war. Where but at the same time, you have the whole kind of acid, culture, and that individualism kind of crept in. And from, like, my perspective, kind of destroyed the left. You know? And that's why we've ended up. And and, you know, in 2003 with the Iraq war, in in in London, we had the biggest, demonstration in England since World War two. There was, I think 2,000,000 people on the shoots of London, like a huge amount of of people. But the main slogan of that demonstration was not in my name. There's like people are like there's like a reflection of people going, you know, I don't want to bear responsibility for this war. So it's more of like a statement. They're like, I don't approve of it. And then that was it. That was the end of they did that protest, you know, and that was the end of that activism. So and that did not stop the Iraq war. The Iraq war continued. So, it's it's kind of an indictment of the modern left where, you know, it's and and I'll give another example is the in England, we have the November 5 protest every year, and literally, tens of thousands of people all from all over England, like, come down on this stage. It takes an entire year to organize this protest. You go to the protest, and there are so many different flags, so many different causes. There's people with, music speakers dancing. It's like a a bit of a music festival, people happy and and partying, and there's a there's a big march all the way from Parliament Square to, Trafalgar Square. And, and and, you know, they do that long march, takes, like, a couple of hours. It's not that long. It's quite short, actually, but it takes two hours because it's a lot of people. And then they get to Trafalgar Square, and the police show up, and then that's it. People go home. So it's like that. So it's it's so as opposed to, like, you know, going there and there will be a a stage and, you know, some speakers who, like, seed ideas and then, you know, maybe give direction, you know, if okay. We have this big expression of, you know, popular politics, but, like, now let's, like, continue this, or let's, like, transfer this energy into the next stage. That's kind of what's missing. And having been in, activist politics since I was very young, like 15 or so, and, you know, and then also revolutionary politics, The, the it's always the there's some kind of new trendy, or it's like the left is so focused on on catching people's attention through, you know, slogans or like or like catchy concepts. There's very little, like, intellectual development. There's a certain attitude among, like, a large section left where it's like, oh, I don't need to read books, like a certain, like, anti intellectualism. The the movement has really suffered because there is a lack of philosophical development. And what ends up happening is that everybody's an individual, but nobody is individuated, which means that, is that the mass is susceptible to, psychological operations, perception management, infiltration by liberal forces, and ends up being manipulated by power because there's no sense of coherency, no shared ideals. It's very easy to use divide and conquer tech tactics. So and it, and it always happens that there is like some new interesting thing that comes up. Everybody gets excited. Everybody starts moving, starts saying, come on, let's go. Let's, let's start doing this thing. And, you know, there's a lot of, like, movement and energy. And and and then and then eventually, it starts to get into that phase where you need to, like, you need to, like, work in a systematic way. Mhmm. And because there's a lack of strategy or long term planning, you know, you know, there's things start to get misdirected and, you know, people start to lose energy, and then the whole thing kinda starts to break down. And this cycle, like, repeats on these very short, like, boom bust cycles. And, and what ends up happening is after, like, you know, a decade or two decades, the people who used to be very political, they start to, like, move to the countryside and say, I'm gonna make a commune and, you know, we're gonna have kids and and then they, like, actually end up breaking away from, activism or revolutionary politics. So, we actually have to not keep repeating the same mistakes. We have to actually not just keep repeat doing the same thing over and over again. Where she should like look and see, like, okay, like, like maybe we should try something else. And I and whenever I talk about talk to people about the need for strategy, the need for, reorientating, like, how we do, politics or, like, how we engage politics. People take it very, personally personally, and they say that, like, they they they take it like a criticism of of themselves. And so, and but it's it's a big problem because, the left right now is is in a very weakened state, And the, and the the what's happening, especially in Europe is or but also worldwide is the right rise of these highly organized, like, neo feudalist kind of political blocs. Like, you see it with, Austria and and and, Slovakia and and Poland and Vox in in, in in, Spain. I also saw a video recently, which is very interesting, by Vice. It's I'd search it. It's called, Italy's fascist squat. Mhmm. And they have a they have a squat. A fascist squat? Yeah. Fascist squat. It's it's it's amazing. Like, they go in this squat and they and it looks exactly like, a leftist squat, but it's got all the fascist symbols instead of the classic leftist one, but it's the same kind of style, except it's very clean and, you know, it looks, it looks, and they've got posters up everywhere. And, I can, I can totally imagine that if I was a young Italian guy, you know, that's like looking to like, I wanna do guy, you know, that's, like, looking to, like, I wanna do something in this world, I would totally be attracted by that? I would, like, be like, that is, you know, they're doing something. They're, like, changing something, you know, and I'd be like because that that's ultimately why we get attracted to politics. Like, we have this we feel there's something wrong with the world, and we wanna wanna change things. You know? We want to, like, we want to, like, remake the order of how things are done. So and that's that's a healthy impulse for humans to have. That's like, that's how, like, life grows and expands, you know, like, expands its influence. I think the left has got too much trapped in this idea of of, like, hanging out, you know, and having fun. So that's why there's people always talk about communities and or communes, and what they mean is not like like actually economically productive centers or, like, centers which are, like, where people are, like, working in a focused way. What they mean is, like, a place where people can, like, go, like, and chill out with other friends and, you know Vibe together. Yeah. Vibe together. Exactly. So, that's actually but that is that is actually the system, trying to co opt leftist politics, trying to, integrate it into a system of power, you know. And essentially, what the anarchist movement has become is, like a tool that is used by the state or the system, like, as to, like, leverage, you know, as a way of, like, extending its its influence. And you can see that now how, and the Antifa is is a very good example because, I would I remember I would go up to Antifa people and I'd go like, okay. So what's your philosophy? And they would go, we're against fascism. I'd be like, okay. And? So that that was it. That's their entire philosophy. And so, you know, like, you and you you what the state essentially does is it creates controlled opposition. And like sometimes you might have these like protests, you know, like or I don't know, rallies where you've got like, I don't know, the the right wing nationalists and you've got the Antifa and they're like fighting each other, but it's like, you know, like a lot of the guys are like like the same. Like, when you actually look, you know, there's people there looking for a fight basically, and it's and it's like, you know, a lot of the times, like, very manipulated. So, so this is something that, like, you know, we have to look within ourselves. And if you actually look, at the old left and old, kind of music or or culture that they put out, artwork, It was, actually very beautiful. It was, very it had like, you know, it had like a very kind of, like coherency about it. You know, like, for example, the old kind of, like, anarchist, in Spain. If you, like, listen to their music, you know, it's it's singing about, like, liberty, the future, and it's it's very collective. So but if you look at the, like, for example, the anarchist music now, it's all very negative. It's just about, like, resentment against power, against, about, like, tearing or burning things down. Mhmm. So, so that's, so that that's, like, so, like, there has been something that's happened, like, to the anarchist movement. The the anarchist movement has not been able to formulate, like, a so first of all, they they especially with the, syndicalists, they they did have, like, a collective way of organizing. But then over time, these movements have become more individualist. And that individualism or, like, hyper individualism has become, like, a politics around me or, like, my identity or, like, my concerns. Yeah. As opposed to, like, formulating, like, a shared vision of society that we all kind of achieve consensus around, and we kind of, like, in a directed way, work to, achieve that vision, and and on also try to bring in other groups from all around the society into that. So, in the in the in the Russian revolution, we actually had the the first up uprising by the, Kronstadt guards or by the, I think it's the the black guards. But they, there was, like, 10,000 of them, and they, yeah, they they actually went in the streets, and they actually went past Lennon's house. And they said to Lennon, like, hey. Come on. Like, we're doing the revolution. Like, come join us. And Lennon was like, guys, I think I'll sit this one out. Like, I'll let you I'll let you go on ahead. So they went and they did that, and, you know, they, they took over the provisional government. And the thing is, like, nothing changed. The old power structures remained. So then and and then and a lot of them ended up being repressed as well. But then the second revolution, the November revolution, this time was, a very big conversation inside of the communist inside of Lenin's party. And in the end, Lenin, you know, he said, okay, we're doing the revolution, and so we're gonna execute on it. And what happened, so there was only a 100 of them, 100, like, well trained communists, you know, acting in a coherent way, sharing sing singular vision. And they went and they were able and then they had like a plan and strategy. They were like, we're gonna capture this bridge, we're gonna do this, and they were also able to rally, like, other groups in society behind them and, like, direct that energy. And they ended up taking over 1st Petrograd and then, you know, like and then slowly expanding over all of Russia. So that was a movement that actually made the ended up making the Russian revolution, not the the kind of leaderless or, like, undirected, like, mass movement beforehand. Mhmm. And, the same thing, you can see as well in the, in the Spanish civil war where the anarchists were, fighting these huge huge battles which lasted many days and many people would die to capture a town that ultimately had no strategic significance. And then they would, yeah, they would capture this town, and it would be a huge cost of of of life, but, like, ultimately, like, did not, like, achieve, like, any goal. And then later and then that was a pretext for the communists to come afterwards and say, okay. We're going to, you know, like, we're gonna make, like, a professional army and and and organize. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. So hi hello everyone. I was I've been in, open source I've been an open source software development. Sorry. I've been an open source software developer for, nearly, twenty years. I've I've also been, involved in, like, left politics for a long time. I also was a professional poker player for two years. That was before right before I got into Bitcoin. I was involved, heavily. I was, like, one of the first five Bitcoin developers in Bitcoin's early history. I organized the first two Bitcoin conferences. I ran one of the one of the biggest exchanges on the market, which was InterSango, the second biggest by volume. And, you know, also participate heavily in Bitcoin development, wrote, a very fast Bitcoin full node, which is still exist today, which is Lit Bitcoin. I also, was involved in, cooperatives, the the Catalan cooperative, and, and and, also, other anarchist projects in in Spain, like. And then, also, I was in Rajava in the YPG in early twenty fifteen, for, you know, three and a half months on the front line. And then, I've been also in Rajava for three years working on economics projects. And, also, I've been, a developer, or researcher for, cryptography, mainly focused around, anonymous techniques.

Actually, in in, yeah, the early days of Bitcoin, there was I'd I'd say, there are a few there were, like, three major kind of blocks. There was the open source tendency, which is what I kind of hail from. There was the Austrian economics tendency. Yeah. And there was this cypherpunk crypto anarchy

Yeah. Then which one? The The second the yeah. The last two. Crypto anarchy and, like, Austrian Yeah. No. They they're they're very different. So, yeah, the Austrian economics guys, were something that was, kind of new to me because, you know, I'd never, I never knew about, like, Austrian economics and and that kind of ideology. But the the cypherpunks or the kind of cryptanicus, like, overlap with the open source communities and and also p two p ideology, which at that time was kind of on the on the way down. It reached its peak around the early two thousands with, BitTorrent and then the spin offs such as, like, the Pirate Bay and then all the like kind of mass protests that happened like in, you know, like Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, other countries which ultimately led also as well to the Arab Spring. Mhmm. But Bitcoin kind of came on the tail end of that. And I'd say maybe it's like kind of reinvigorated that kind of ideology as well, which is like the whole kind of swarm politics, p two p decentralization kind of stuff. But the the, the free software open source ideology is is slightly different because it's it's more about, using, it's more about the aspect that, technology is fundamental to human society and therefore necessitate, that everybody has free access to that technology. So we also see that aspect to play in cryptocurrency where now the question of open finance and, like, the ability of, like, of what it's called money Legos to interoperate. Yeah. So that that tendency strongly comes from the free software movement. Austrian economics is is concerned with sound money, and, actually, you know, they have some good points, especially their critique of the central bank. But their problem is is that they're trapped inside of the same logic of the kind of system that they're fighting against. So which is uh-uh neoclassical or neoliberalist economics. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so first of all, like, Rojava is like a region of, 5,000,000 people. So that's like bigger than the population of Estonia. So it's it's a very it's a very large, you know, like kind of region. I'd say it's like 400 or 500 kilometers across and like about the same down. Mhmm. So it's and currently Syria is is split into two parts. The northern part which is Rejava or like North Syria, and the southern part which is the Assad Government, the Syrian government, which is actually a national socialist ideology. They're literally fascists. And and that's so that's a problem. That's also kind of what has so the Middle East in general, they with the age of modernity, they recognized that they needed to adapt. The way that they adapt was by copying, western nation states. So we ended up in The Middle East with these very artificial states, with borders that do not correspond to, communities that already exist, and and borders that, like, cut right through them. Whereas The Middle East have, like, this very old kind of fabric that, like, extends between many many different, like, communities that can cut that often coexist in the same geography or territory. And, and and and so these centralized states essentially just copied, European states, and and that's why there's this tendency to, authoritarianism and and dictators precisely because when a state exists, on a on a in a in a context where it's not adapted to that context, the tendency of the state is to centralize and and create a stronger power apparatus to maintain its power. So this is kind of the problem with, for example, Syria and what has led to disenfranchisement of large section of the population, which has also part led to its instability and its inability to kind of meet the the needs or the specific contexts of of different groups in the society. So, and if you actually look at the the flag of the of the of the Syrian social nationalist party, which is the main political party in Assad's government, it's actually a swastika. She's like a Nazi yes. Like a Nazi swastika. So but then like Rajaava has like a very different politics which is which is very unique and interesting and also can add a lot of value to anarchist thought. In fact I think like substantially offer value and should be required reading for every every person that's interested in not just in anarchism but in politics in general. It's it's also the most, politically interesting, region or movement in the world right now. So it's it's kind of it's kind of strange the lack of, interest or focus that it's got by academics as well, which really kind of shows how insular or cut off western thought has become from the actual realities of the world and and how, western thought has an inability to actually, like, meet the needs of, like, global human society that's that's struggling with crises of, like, ecology or technological development or terrorist movements. You know? So, yeah, in terms of Rejava, like, early early or or late twenty fourteen, I was reading about, the PKK on the Internet, and was reading about Ocalan's works. And I found them very interesting and compelling, particularly what he said about economy. Then I discovered that, also that they had a region in North Syria. That was before ISIS attacked Kobani. ISIS attacked Kobani, and then I was kind of following it every single day. I became very invested in in, that kind of fight, in the outcome of that fight. And then at some point, like, I decided that, like, I had to kind of go and kind of see for myself, also, like, offer, like, any help that would be needed. You know? At the time, like, the way of getting there was, like, very difficult. Like, now it's a lot different. It's like a lot more things are, like, becoming a lot more formalized. So I went to the YPG. I surfed in the YPG. I was on the front for some time. You know, there was a a few gun battles, but, like, most of the time, just smoking cigarettes,

like, just literally getting three hours of sleep every night four hours and just spending the whole night staring at pitch black like just pitch pitch black nothing happening. Yeah. And then randomly it would be like suddenly everybody's rushing to get their shoes on because there's like an attack or something. Mhmm. You know? Is yeah. Like, one of the biggest attacks I was in, I was literally about to walk outside the base, to, you know, in the no man's land. And then, like, all these machine guns but I literally went back to get my jacket, and then, like, all these machine guns from ISIS started firing. And then but it was act it's actually, kind of exhilarating as well. Like, you know, people, like, running around, and there's, like, bullets flying everywhere. And, yeah. It's kind of like a movie as well. And, it's also something that, like, is very vivid, so I still remember it, like, very clearly, like it was, like, yesterday. Yeah. So it sticks with you, for a long time. But the tragedy of war as well is that, people, die. And you know it's it's sad like especially like when good people die like you know so that's and there's a lot of very good people and they're often the people to die first as well because they're the ones that are like you know the best. So yeah. So then yeah. So then I, like, left from the military. I went to serve an economics committee because that's, like, more my kind of work. You know? There's, like, there's no like, there's a lot there's no shortage of soldiers, and actually that's not what they need. What they need in Rajavra is actually science and technology. That's, like, their main concern right now. You know? So, anyway, early that was that was 2015. 2015 was a very special time because, everywhere you went in society, everybody was engaged with the kind of revolution. There was a lot of, like, enthusiasm, a lot of energy, you know, like, really smart people, engaged in this thing. You know? And yeah. So but over time, you know, like so the the thing is is, like, the the war is on the frontline. The war is not in the cities. So cities are just like a normal third world country, like normal life. But the but the problem is is, the the struggle of the war situation is, for example, when you have an embargo, it drives the price of goods up. So it makes it expensive for normal people to, like, afford basic necessities, and, you know, like, puts a lot of stress on the economy. In particular now, Turkey is building dams that cut off the water supply. So, there's there's a problem with water, and what people are doing is they're digging wells. And the problem with the wells is the the, the the water level drops. The more the water level drops, the more the the lambs, which is used to grow wheat that people eat, turns into desert. Mhmm. And then, you know, like, you can't grow anything on on on desert, basically. So that's a huge problem now with the water supply. You know? And sometimes there's water shortages in certain areas, like, you don't like, it depends where you are. Like, some places, you there's no problem with water, but then some cities, you know, like, a lot of people moving out of Haseca, which is one big city because there's like very little water, sometimes for days they're like taps don't have water. Yeah. You know, and so that's kind of annoying. And then, you know, in terms of electricity as well, you know, the electrical grid needs to be upgraded. But they have, like, a ton of oil, but the problem is is they can't, like, really export that oil. So, yeah. So there's a lot of difficulty in that aspect, but economically as well. So if if they manage to get out of this war situation and they manage to kind of have a stable political entity, then they can be very successful as a nation. But, yeah, the philosophy of the movement in Rajava is has a lot of soft power. And if they manage to succeed long term, they have the potential to infiltrate and influence the wider Middle East. And so Rojava is a small statelet as of, like, 5,000,000 people could expand to become like a civilization. You know? Like, yeah, the Kurds themselves are are in Iraq, in Iran, in Turkey Yeah. So and also Syria. So that by itself is a very big piece of land,

Yeah. That was actually engineered deliberately by western states. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, there's a quote by Winston Churchill where he was saying that he's in favor of gassing the Kurds. Jesus. Because, and even even my dad who's from Iran, I remember when I asked him about Kurds, he said, oh, they're troublemakers. So there's there's this perception by every everyone in The Middle East that the Kurds, they just cause problems for people Yeah. That need to kind of, like, behave and, like, put up with their kind of with their lot that they've been given. But they were actually split between four states as a way of weakening them. Mhmm. You know? And it kind of worked in the beginning, but it's just led to, like, bigger problems in the longer term. Right. So it's this kind of, like, short term opportunistic thinking that, in general, not just in The Middle East, but everywhere in the world is is has led to the deep social inequalities and, like, divisions in society. So another good example is the Israeli Palestine conflict where people always say, like, oh, should there be a one party state? Should there be a two party state? But the thing is nobody actually asks a question like, what about, no part no state solution, you know? Which, you know, like like, who designed this crappy political system where, where different, different groups within different nations, within, a society are vying to fight for singular power. Like I said, that's more an indictment of the of the kind of political structure or the system than it is about the kind of reality of, like, the nations as they exist. The the actual state or political system of governance should reflect the local realities, not the other way around. So that that's a that's an issue.

Yeah. So, you know, I've been, long time, going to crypto conferences, talking about and and talking about politics and, trying to get people, invested or interested, you know, telling them, look, this is like an opportunity to do something meaningful. Instead, like, the main interests of people so now, you know, the El Salvador thing, which which is like he's like a gangster, like associated with like cartels and mafia. So that's like okay. Offshores, like having a boat in the middle of the ocean, you know, like Right. I don't know if you read that story where these bitcoiners bought like a $20,000,000 cruise liner. And then she didn't realize that cruise liners are the most one of the most regulated industries in the world. So it didn't really work out. I think like a lot of the kind of, what do you call it? Like, seasteading people are gonna have are gonna come to this realization that, no, you can't just have a boat in the middle of the ocean and be left alone. And, also the Ethereum people, like, I know you Vitalik, like, a long time. I was telling him I was I was telling all the ETH Foundation of people about Raja for us to somebody at the conferences. For the kind of reaction I got from them was kinda felt like kind of them going, like, going, you know, we wanna change things, but not change things too much. Yeah. You know? So they they went all into this, like, radical markets, which is completely institutional, liberal politics, you know, associate they they like they talk at the WEF and Davos and and all that. And then even more shockingly, seeing that, members of the ETH community were going to North Korea to talk to a dictator about ETH and not engaging with Rojava. So I don't know. Honestly, I don't know what is up with people and and how they're thinking or what their reasoning is. Yeah. There's something definitely very confused going on. You know? Yeah.

sort of had the the given the opportunity to go talk to them. I've given them plenty of opportunities to go to Rajaava. Yeah. I'm sure. I actually put them on the telephone with people from the administration and, you know, like, managing the economy and stuff, but, like, never seemed to, like, never really seemed to, like, spark their interest. Right. So, like, why Even though it's, like, the perfect example of, like,

to a certain degree. Yeah. I I honestly don't know. Like, there's there's very big disconnect between

Yeah. Well, it's yeah. It's it's more like it's it's not like a, I guess, a single project. Right. It's more like a kind of community that we're creating.

Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's not a way to swap assets between different chains. It's actually, an environment, or a kind of toolkit for people to create anonymous applications. Leveraging like very very like novel cryptography techniques such as zk and and other techniques. As well, when I when normally before in the past when I wanted to create a cryptographic application, what I'd have to do is I'd have to have a good knowledge of cryptography and I'd have to think how to combine different techniques to create an application. And then sometimes, you know, it would be impossible to create that cryptographic schema, And, other times, it might be very slow. But, like, with, for example, z k now, we have very generic set of tooling that can that opens up an entirely new design space of applications that weren't before possible. And there are several, like, projects that are, like, trying to create environments for people to create Zika applications. For example, Aleo, Aztec, and others. However, they are not there's, like, a certain subset of that space that they are not going to touch or deal with, but we are deliberately we we actually see them as as, like, good things to help bring to life or realize. Right. And and I I think there's like a serious desire within the crypto community to see this design space realized.

Yeah. There are some weird things happening like the world coin or, like, people are, like, scanning their eyes. Yeah. That's that's the, like, yeah, the worst example of it. The the even even, even Klaros, if you look at the EFCC Klaros talk, the the actual talk by Federico, is he's saying he starts talking about, the panopticon, and he he goes, well, actually, the interpretation by Foucault of the Panopticon, was incomplete because, actually, it was a good thing because the original, vision of the Panopticon was that anybody can go into the tower and, like and every anybody can, like, watch the people watching the prisoners. Mhmm. And so, therefore, it's like a decentralized form of surveillance. Mhmm. And, and there's the strange thing and that kind of thinking, as she comes out of the whole, you know, like English movement where, for example, the school system, which in England was, like, designed based off the like, based off of the, factory, like, model where you put kids in and you, like, manufacture them into being workers. And I I absolutely hated school in England. It was so boring. It was like we we basically just learned, or were indoctrinated in our history lessons into the memorizing the wives of like Henry the eighth, or like the lineage of kings and all the battles that they fought. Yeah. Like really, we didn't we didn't learn about Celtic history, we didn't learn about, you know like Cromwell's civil war. We we we didn't learn about the enlightenment or we didn't learn anything. We just learned about the kings and queens of England. That was our our history, basically. And England has a reputation for having, like, really bad education, and that's that's, I think, deliberately as a consequence of that movement. And also the garden cities movement, which was a way of, like, planning, central planning, people's lives in a city, and designing the city, and the way people interact, which, and then also BF Skinner is also also comes out of that movement. BF Skinner, did all this research in into, for example, the Skinner box, which was showing that you can actually you can actually instead of using negative reinforcement like pain or punishment, you can actually use positive reinforcement to get pigeons to behave a certain way. And so they they they they thought this was like a cool thing to, like, apply to human beings. And so that's kind of like what we have today with, you know, like, or or the kind of ways that, like, perception is, like, engineered in society and has created this, like, widespread atmosphere of distrust where, like, nobody trusts the system, and has actually led to the instability of the system. So, a lot of ETH people think are, like, also of that persuasion, where they're really into, like, positivism, and they're really, like, the way that they see this technology is a way to, like, engineer, like, a a a an optimal society according to logic. Mhmm. And, we actually reject that type of thinking. So instead, like, we are interested in, in in like, we have, like, a a certain political ideal around democratic politics or, like, empowerment of of society and and the nations, and and people in them. And therefore, we want to empower autonomy and individuation and give people the the tooling to, like, enlarge human society and the social relations between people. And and the way that we see politics are is as the activities that concern interests of society, such as, like, well-being, security, and freedom. And the the ideal of politics is to multiply public spaces. So, in particularly DAO in particular DAOs and DeFi are very interesting because the whole ETH Foundation had this kind of politics oriented around, like, radical markets and human social engineering, and it the whole new emergent space of DeFi has kind of rejected that with a resounding no. And, instead we're seeing this new emergent politics which is, very much in line with the thought of, like, Ocalan's politics emerging inside of inside of that. They're like almost a perfect fit fit. You know? It's like we're in terms of, like, Darkfy, we're not, we're not coming and dictating top down what the politics should be. Instead, we have been we have been observing for a long time what are the natural underlying tendencies of the community, which the community in some ways you can say is an expression of the of the kind of democratic nation that exists all throughout history. And is is it is it kind of is that democratic tendency within technology about human empowerment. So what we merely want to do is to enlarge that and to bring add richness and and develop it. So that's why also, in particular the concept of algorithm Yeah. We want to kind of bring it back to the forefront because algorithm is a very key philosophy in the early history of Bitcoin, like a very important one. A lot of the early Bitcoin tool community, like I I mentioned there were the crypto anarchists, and there was the Austrian economists, and the open source people. The intersection of all three of those communities is agorist philosophy, and agorists were very common in twenty ten twenty eleven. In fact, Ross Ulbricht, who founded Silk Road, was an agorist and his favorite novel alongside Knight was about a group of revolutionary, free market cadre in The US He overthrew the US government through, what what is termed in agris philosophy, counter economics. Counter economics is is like free market trade that undermines the state. And, and in in and, you know, like, today, when I like, I think I was in, in Tenerife when I was walking around, and I saw, like, a Bitcoin shop. And it was just random shop in a shopping mall. And, the and it had, like, all these posters on the wall, with, like, slogans and the anonymous mask. And it's so uncanny how, similar the reality is to the novel. Like, we're actually, like, living the reality of that novel. Like, it's actually, like, transpiring in front of us. So I think that is, like, a really good source of, of of inspiration if, like, if we go back and we look at the things that the agorists were saying. Because agorism is essentially about is a kind of, like, democratic economics that can can be used to, like, preconfigure, like, relations economic relations.

Yeah. Well, agorism is, an idea or concept that was put forward by Samuel Konkin, but it also kind of fits within the tradition of left wing, market anarchism. But it also, incorporates tendencies from, right wing libertarianism. So the thing is is, philosophies are, rarely stagnant when they are alive. So in some ways, left and right are categories that were, invented, I don't know, three hundred years ago or four hundred years ago. And the the left has become at least the conception of the left, has become, a kind of enclosure and the right as well for certain sets of issues, which may or may not correspond to socialist or socialism Right. As as a as a ideology. Like the orthodox sense, I guess. Yeah. In orthodox sense. So I'm I'm very much more towards the orthodox or at least original conception of of of socialism, you know, which does not singularly include Marx, but it incorporates, like, other other thinkers. So socialism is about, you know, public means of production and and, you know, can also include concepts of cooperatives and so on. So, the socialists, including the communists, if if you look, for example, the communists, the Soviet Union had the I think it was the 12 precepts for the moral builder of communism, which is kind of like a 10 commandments for for communists. And there was also Che Guevara's idea of the the new socialist man as as like an ideal. So socialism, in its root was concerned with, morality and, and and politicizing society. So but the modern left is actually in some ways, like, anti morality.

Yeah. I I I would say, yeah, I would say that that is probably because the left has become has, like, lost, philosophical sophistication. So, it's it's become very dogmatic, and dogma usually happens as a consequence of, you know, like, of of, like, a kind of movement becoming degraded. Yeah. Stagnant. Yeah. Stagnant. And, and and so what and so that's why you see, for example, liberals in The US who liberals used to be the kind of vanguard of free speech, now are actually protecting they're actually like, very much in favor of policing speech and also, preventing certain types of speech as well. So they've become very anti free speech And, I feel like that kind of dogmatism usually rises out of weakness. Yeah. Because you are unable to, because I honestly believe that humans intrinsically, you know, like, you you have to the only way that you can't coerce someone intrinsically, you have to, like, you have to convince them through the power of persuasion, and the left has lost that power and because their philosophy is is not as strong as it once used to be. It used to be the left's philosophy used to be very strong, like, it's, you know, like, and and maybe in some ways say they were successful in in attaining in power. But what the left needs to kind of undergo is like a a philosophical, like, revival or transformation, and that's why I'm kind of directing the left to like, look at Ocalan's works and seriously consider the work of Ocalan, alongside other thinkers like Richard Warner and Lewis Mumford. The the problem is is, is that, the a lot of a lot of, like, engagement with Rejava by the left so far has often been on the kind of pretext of going, oh, look. It's a social, anarchist revolution. You know? Like, oh, we accept it into our domain. As opposed to going, oh, wow. They've, like, action this this this this, movement has, like, achieved some, you know, like, some, like, breakthrough. What can we learn from that? Or, like, how can we understand how that thing works? And it even when, people were like they want to understand for Java or they wanna learn about Red Java, Again, for some reason, people don't seem to engage with Ocalan's works. So for example, there are these books called, like, Rajaava, where when you look at the book inside, it's like it says, like, about Rajaava or something. Inside the book, it's got, like, these diagrams and explanations of, like, the structures of the institutions and, you know, like, this there's this body, and it does this thing, and there's this organization, and this is how the whole thing is structured. And the thing is is like, that is the equivalent of going, if you wanna understand Christianity, understanding the structure of the churches and like the structure of power, instead of like actually reading the bible, like trying to understand like what the teachings of that philosophy are actually saying. So that's why it's like very important for people to like read manifesto for a democratic civilization, which are the actual works of Ocalan, that actually like where he does his like analysis, and actually come out of the two thousands when he was captured. And, and then, you know, like, came to this realization that there had to be a big change in the PKK, because what happened with the PKK was they originally were, an organization that was fighting for, Dijon independence to get a a nation state for Kurds. It was, like, within Turkey. Within Turkey. Yep. But then, they but then the big shift in focus was when Ocalan kind of realized that, you know, the nation the the, the Middle East, it's like it's a very old culture. It's the the birthplace of human civilization. You know, the crater of civilization in it was ancient Mesopotamia or or Sumer. Also it's origin of the world's major religions and philosophies. It's a place where many different ethnicities and religions have been living side by side, often on the same territory for thousands of years. So, you know, you can't apply, like, a nation state thinking to that kind of society. In fact, that is the problem that has caused all these problems. So that's why they, and and they shifted their focus away from fighting for, like, a single nation state to instead, like, actually what we should be nurturing are these kind of parallel societies, you know, de facto autonomy.

Yeah. So every kind of revolutionary movement, have to nurture a parallel society as the kind of precursor which kind of, create the seed of the new kind of society that will kind of displace the current power structures. Yeah. And these kind of parallel societies, they offer pockets of freedom, which, like, nurture ideologies of resistance and, like, form the basis of the new society. You know, and, you know, like, totalitarianism as a force, you cannot defeat it through compliance. Like, whenever you, like, comply with totalitarianism, it only kind of, like, emboldens it as a system. And, like, you know, for example, Stalin, he only really started his purges, much later once all the opposition had been kind of nullified. And then he was like, he was actually felt like he was strong enough to start like going after everybody else. So, and and that happens like when the kind of rulers, they're like no longer afraid. That's when totalitarian terror is unleashed. So, it it never so, like, the compliance actually never leads to, like, normality, and therefore, like, resistance is kind of essential to counter, like, the rise of totalitarian rule. And and, the whole point of parallel societies is that they they exist free from coercion and allow this, like, democratic politics to kind of nurture. We see it in every every revolution. It's it's, like, the broad base of popular support. Like, for example, I was talking about, the fascist Scott in Italy. One of the other things that they have been doing, the fascist parties in Italy, is they provide, health care and like food and social services. Yeah. And in the video the local people are saying that, oh the communists used to offer this, but now it's the fascists that are offering this to us. Yeah. You know? So, so when it comes to anonymity, you know, a lot of anonymity or privacy is often framed in terms of, like, going, oh, you know, I don't want to, you know, pay taxes or, like, I want to be free from the state. I'm less interested in that. Like, the interest that I have is, all these concepts I was talking about, like DAOs and DeFi's. The the the the power and capital monopolies or the state and capitalism is, gonna come after these nascent organizational structures are emerging. And therefore it's, essential for us to, find, to, create the means of self defense such that those new parallel organizational structures are emerging can prosper and thrive because they're they're actually bringing something that's very useful and needed because, for example, technology absolutely absolutely rules modern society. Like absolutely plays a key role. Like digital technology like Internet. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I meant by technology. Yeah, there is more to technology than computers. But yeah, I mean digital technology. And, and therefore, like, the only way that we can, you know, and and revolutionary movements in general, you, usually the ones that succeed make the best use of technology. Like technological use of technology is is usually a key to success. So

Yeah well then yeah there's a story in ancient history of of how of the Assyrian king. Assyria was like the first dictatorship in in history and Kahwa was it's like a this is a Kurdish mythology. He was a blacksmith and he, he had the technology of iron iron make iron working tools with blacksmith. And he taught all the surrounding tribes how to make weapons, and that became the basis they basically stockpiled weapons. And then to signal the start of the revolution, they lit fires on the hills, which was an early form of telecommunications. Mhmm. And that, like, signaled the beginning of the rebellion. Mhmm. So, so for example, technology, it plays such a crucial role, and therefore, like, it's it's very essential that we have access to technology. Like, we are not just, like, consuming the technology, but we are controlling or steering the technology. And when I say we, I don't mean like some subset of of like specialist or elite. I mean the society in general. The for example, you know, in ancient Greece, they had the, they had, like, steam power. They had, electronics. They had hydroponics. They had, like, they even had like computers, like mechanical computers, they had cryptography, they had a lot of very advanced science and technology. They never had like a scientific revolution or an industrial revolution, because the people who were developing the science and technology, they were an elite, and the application of that, knowledge that they were developing was often just like it was the only application really was to make toys to entertain kings. And the end result of that was the the library of Alexandria became this symbol of oppression and end up being burnt down by the poor Christian hordes. Mhmm. So you know, it's very important that, that science as a tool, and then technology, is doesn't become a tool of the oppressors, but also the the the size society or the democratic nation has access to these tools of power and and is also part of the discourse that is shaping their development and their evolution. And so that's why for like many years, you know, like I was involved in free software movement, but the biggest problem with free software movement is we did not have funding. There was no economic model behind it. But, like, now with, and so, like, a lot of the technology that's being developed now is based around, you know, exploiting users using this, like, low value, ad based model where people would just, like, click ads. Mhmm. And the consequence of that is the development of this, like, surveillance mega structure, this architecture of oppression, which is is is leading to better and better developments of AIs. In fact, like now with the drones as well, what they can do is they can fill the sky with drones, such as impossible for people to move on the land. So the in the past, if, if, a state became too oppressive, you at least had the means of self defense to, like, resist physically the coercion. But, like, now this, like, lost avenue of freedom is being taken away from us, and and part of that is is the whole kind of digital Internet big tech economy that's like powering this like some this like war on society. This like this, like, societal genocide, apparatus. So, all these techniques like DeFi and cryptography are the means by which we can, like, defend like our spaces of freedom, like by which we can ensure the integrity of like our politics and our expression. Yeah.

Well, yeah. They're absolutely like, when when I came into Bitcoin in 2010, I was like, this is incredibly important. I'm a 100% in for the next ten years, twenty years. Like, no questions. But, I did not expect it to get as big as it's as it's got. Like, I expected the kind of two year mark that we got to, I expected would take ten years or or longer or twenty years. Yeah. So that happened very quickly. I couldn't Yeah. And then the level that we've reached now is, like, surprising. And, so that's been completely unexpected. Yeah. In terms of the market in general, I I sense, there has been, like, a lot of development of technique, but at the same time, there's also some stagnation. And it and and to break out this stagnation, it's it's necessary to have a compelling narrative that can pull people together. There are several narratives that have been vying for, like, competition, but nothing I think really that's, like, strong enough to, like, propel this kind of space forward. So that's kind of where I think we kind of fit and I think we we actually bring substantial value to the narrative discourse.

Yeah. Well, a lot of those people that there for making money, they just they're gonna just exit early and short their own potential because, you know, they're just looking to make a quick buck. But those of us are, like, steadfast, you know, we're in for the risky game, but also the bigger gains, so to speak, but less tangible gains. Yeah. You know, there's something bigger that weighs on the horizon.

Yeah. We have a, a chat that people should join, but you can just go on the website dark.fi, like dark.fi. Mhmm. And, the there's a there's a link there called community, and it has everything on there. Well, thanks a lot again for, taking the time. Thanks for having me.