How to make a good ART PONZI
I'm not much of an art NFT collector myself, but I do dabble in at least appreciating some NFT art that I find to be interesting in one way or another. So for this episode I spoke to Chainleft, my potential anon online doppelganger, who has recently started a new NFT collection he calls ART PONZI. Having been involved in the NFT space quite early, he is using this collection as a critique of many NFT projects while also testing out very novel mechanisms that few others have dared to try. In ...
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Transcript
Hi everyone. You're listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast. And for today I have, someone that you may have heard of on Twitter. He goes by Chain Left. He is potentially my digital doppelganger. We will talk about that. But he's been involved in some really interesting things over the past that I've I've sort of seen him, get involved in through Twitter and through, especially NFTs. And he recently also started his own NFT collection which has a really, really interesting mechanism behind it. And so I really wanted to have him on so that we can talk about it. He's also done some interesting analyses on the differences between Proof of Work and Proof of Stake. And so we wanted to talk about some of these things for today's episode. But maybe to start off, we can just start really, really, bluntly. If you want, chain left, if you can introduce yourself for those who may not know you and explain if you are my digital doppelganger or not.
Yeah. We we sort of are. So, yeah. Hi. So my name is Jane Leff. Thank you for having me, Blockchain Socialist, or TBS. We are, so, yeah, my name is Jane Leff. I'm, originally from a, Middle Eastern country. I was lucky lucky enough that I had a, an education and and become a data scientist and and left, my country early on. And I I moved, I traveled in much of different places. I lived in different places. Right now I'm based in Central Europe. And, yeah, I'm originally a data scientist, but I got into crypto around, 2017 and NFTs more around, first half of last year in 2021. And, the main, I guess, attraction for me, on on NFTs and in general blockchain was really the smart contracts. So I wasn't really that much interested in, you know, Bitcoin early on. But I really got started interested in, smart contracts because that kind of I I saw that it can actually lead to a lot of interesting things, and we're seeing now those, things being done. Right? Like, we are seeing artists getting royalties and payments, and we're seeing DAOs being formed. And I know, you are actually doing a lot of work, there as well that's, you know, with the blockchain and and other, organizations. So, so, yeah, I think there are a lot of interest things for a leftist in, in in blockchain space, be beyond the speculation that we see. And, yeah, that's what really got interesting for me. I, from the early on, like, since my childhood, really, like, I was interested in art as well. Actually, you know, I I dabbled in a few things. When, I was, living in London, I I did some photography and then some, very few street art pieces as well, actually. Hopefully, they're still in London in some of the walls, there. And, since I my background is in data science and encoding, I also got a lot involved in generative art and then, you know, build like, doing art with code. Right? And then this is kind of where what I've been doing recently as well. Nice. Yeah. So then,
yeah, I think for a lot of people who have joined in the crypto world on the left has it has been sort of the, application of smart contracts that I think has become sort of the the more interesting stuff than it was with, like, Bitcoin being sort of digital gold Yeah. Or, like, trying to make a hard money type of thing. Yeah. But I thought it was really funny when I first found your account. I was like, chain left. I was like I was like, that could have been, like, one of the many names that I probably wrote down as, like, potential names for my for my platform or something like that because I just, like, couldn't I couldn't think of one. But, yeah, I think it's funny. You know, what what why did you choose that name?
That's funny because, I actually the original name of my account was I think Blockchain Leftist, I think, like, so this is obviously an alt account. Right? I I had the Twitter account that I used for more political, let's say, follows and and and deep really deep into leftist, follows and and, posting. I had it, like, you know, much earlier on, but I created this account specifically, I think, in 2021, early two thousand twenty one. Yeah. So I actually picked the name blockchain leftist at the time. Leftist being more, I would say, I guess, trying to be a little inclusive. So, you know, I know that in crypto space, we see a more right leaning crowds. Right? I mean, at least at least originally. I think recently that's changing a lot. And by calling it leftist, the idea was well, that's inclusion. Right? It can include anarchist. It can includes, you know, Marxist, even tankies. You know? So the idea was, like, you know, be appeal to a bit of a wider audience and make sure that, you know, I can actually highlight the these use cases between, that is inside crypto that appeals to left, leftist view. So that was the main reason. And then I thought blockchain leftist was too long, so I made a chain leftist, and then it it kind of stuck to chain left eventually. I discovered, I think, your account maybe end of last year, and I was like, okay. Well, this was done before. That was obvious. So I I honestly think it better than me already. So, you know? Sorry. So so, yeah, that was We could always use more. I don't mind. Yeah. I know. I mean, I I think we will I mean, there are now now that's we've adopted this open, you know, openly leftist accounts in Twitter. You're meeting, I'm sure, as well, and I'm now meeting also a lot of other leftist people who are into crypto. So that's actually, they're actually like, people are a lot of people are actually leftist, but they're kind of almost hiding because of the mass, like, the, you know, general The expectation. Yeah. Right? I mean, within the crypto it's from both sides. Like, within crypto world, you have all these, like, right leaning people who dislike leftists, maybe, and then you have leftists who really dislike crypto. So people are not really that vocal about their, their views, essentially. So I think having these accounts is useful because, you know, people people are DMing me. Oh, I'm actually leftist as well. Or or some leftists are actually DMing and saying, oh, that sounds actually interesting, you know, even though they wouldn't write it publicly on Twitter. So that's Right. Yeah. That's an interesting thing.
Yeah. Yeah. I've I've I've definitely had the the same experience where I think just, yeah, being open about sort of my stance has sort of helped other people, feel willing or able to, profess their own political views that doesn't necessarily align with the rest of crypto or, you know, vice versa, like you said Yeah. Which has been really interesting to see. I think part of I think part of that for us, at least, both of us being kind of pseudo anonymous, kind of helps with, like, being able to do that because I feel like I wouldn't have done it if I had put, like, my real my real face on it. Yeah. Probably me neither. It's gonna be more difficult. Yeah. But yeah. So I'm curious, I imagine, like, you got into NFTs, I imagine, because it sort of combined your two interests both in data science and already having this interest in art and, having already
made street art in London, for example. Yeah. I mean, I I wouldn't call like that. I did I I did, like, three or something things that are actually That's more than me. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. So, I mean, you know, you don't have to be an artist to to to enjoy art, of course. But, yeah, to me, to me, I think that it really appealed to me that the NFT if we're if we're specifically speaking about NFTs, I think to me, it really appealed to me that artists were finally getting paid. Right? Like, that's that's finally stress on the finally part because, you know, you see that there is not a really a lot of successful models for artists to really make money. And, you know, we're seeing over and over a lot of cases in the over the past years. And that's applies to all sorts of art, by the way, like music, visual arts. And I feel like this element of, ownership I mean, if we're living in the world where there is an ownership, right, I mean, this is there is a lot of debate about this. Right? I mean, is is that a good thing already? And there are lots of articles about it whether, you know, NFT making things, more ownership focused is a good thing or a bad thing. And and and we can have these debates. I think it's a healthy debate. But if we are living in a world of ownership and if we're not, you know, completely, you know, toppling the capitalism, I think it is fair for artists to have a livelihood based on this ownership structure. So, and there is there are lots of researches and studies on the fact that people do enjoy art when they actually own it. There is, like, actual study about it. So, you know, the cool thing about NFTs is that and and and this is actually a criticism of NFT, but but I actually like that it says a feature in my opinion, not a bug that anyone can right click save it. Right? So anyone can actually Right. Look at it and and enjoy it. But someone else who actually has the means and and money, they can actually pay for it and own it, and and they will have an additional sense of happiness with that payment. So everyone enjoys it, but the ownership provides value to artists and to collector as well. So I feel like it's almost like a triple win scenario with with this structure. And, again, like I'm saying, like, in a world where there's no ownership, we wouldn't have this. But, when when there is this, already paradigm of ownership, I think that actually provides a really good, almost, like, a workaround. Mhmm. So that's what I really enjoyed, I think, about it. People getting paid and artists getting paid. Also, the royalties, obviously, that's that's, I think, an additional I was very vocal about my support for royalties as well recently. Like, there's this debate about it. Yeah. There have been debates. So, yeah, I mean, that that was, I think, the appeal for me, the NFTs. I never really got into too much on the PFP hype. Like, I never once even had a, profile picture that was a an NFT, actually. So it's all my You never got a Bored Ape? Yeah. Not no Bored Ape or Oh, you've never stolen a Bored Ape? Yeah. Never. Yeah. And, and not even, like, you know, any other, you know, PFP project. It's my own drawing, like, my my PFP. I I don't get that model, to be honest. You know, the the I know people talk about this community element, and and I don't know. Some some people call it, like, a startup and a fundraising element. But I I I don't see it personally. To me, it feels a little, you know, a a community purely driven by financial motive doesn't feel like a very robust community to me. To me, it should should be based on a value. So, you know, there are a few projects like that that have both, like, both financial and, some sort of specific value, like those women led projects or or, environments related projects. So so maybe maybe these will have better future long term. I don't know. But, yeah, but for me, it was more about art always. So I've been more focused on the art side of it.
Nice. Yeah. I think, that I think it's it it has been just such a weird conversation, especially in the very beginning with NFTs. Just like I've mentioned this before, but, like, kind of like idiots on one side and idiots on the other saying, like, you know, this this is my picture. You can't copy it. You know, it's not yours. It's my property. It's my digital property because it's on the blockchain. And then other people saying like, I stole your property because I, you know, right click saved it. You know, it's like the dumbest conversation. It's it's mind numbing, like, when
you hear these people talk to you. Do you know that? When when I was discussing with some, NFT let's call it n a NFT hater. When I was speaking to some NFT haters, and that happened, like, more than five, maybe 10 times, They would, copy paste my PFP and post it back to me saying that, look, I I stole your NFT. And I'm saying, this is not an NFT. It's my own drawing. Like, feel free to do whatever you want with it. It's not, you know, it's, it's it is really, you know, it's fun. Just, at some point, it becomes really, annoying, of course. But yeah. And your your your PFE, it's like it's called Marx with, like, a cloak. No? Yeah. With a cloak and and some GM on it and and pixel art as well. So I I I drew myself on on a pixel Some real some real crypto leftist,
art right there. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, there were different versions of it during the Christmas. I put a Santa Claus hat on it. And, when I now now I think it's the one with kids. Like, I have, you know, because now I have a new baby. So, you know Right. Congrats. Yeah. Thanks. So I keep changing it, basically, but it's it's my own drawing. So
Nice. Yeah. And then I think you've also helped a lot with, if I understand it correctly, you helped, Jonathan Mann a lot. Yeah. The song a day guy. Yeah. The,
I mean, the I don't know a lot, but, like, he he asked if I could analyze some data, produce some charts, from, his song that they archive, essentially. He wanted to put it into some sort of, I think, maybe an article or maybe maybe a book. And, so so, yeah, we did a lot of, some analysis basically through his data. Like, he had a lot of he is he kept really good record of what's done. Like, not just, you know, the songs and names and stuff, but, like, the the the melody, the the the length, the tempo. Like, all of that were stored in the in the database. So he had a very clean dataset already to begin with. So I cleaned it up. That all on, like, Excel or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing, actually. Like, the the I mean, the guy is, you know, like, he's really dedicated to what he's doing, so it's really cool. Mhmm. And, yeah, he's, so so I cleaned the data a little bit more. It was not not fully clean, but it was pretty clean, I think, for like, if you that's maybe a a sidebar, but, like, you know, data science. People say, like, oh, it's a glorified, like, oh, data science. It's actually 90% data cleaning. But, you know, so so, so in this case, though, it was really very little data cleaning and more, like, visualization and producing stuff. So nice. Yeah. Because that in my experience, whenever I did data analysis for, like, the projects or work or something like that, it was, yeah, a lot of data cleaning. Yeah. Just spending, like, weeks and weeks of doing it. But Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, his his work is, you know, I think is pretty cool, and and it speaks for himself. He has really good songs. Yeah. So I was really happy to get involved with him. He also gifted me a song after that, so that was also nice of him.
No. That's great. Yeah. I think it's, it's always nice to hear whenever, I don't know, people using their skills just for for, like, these types of efforts for outside of, like, a normal work context. It's always nice to to be able to do that. I'd I'd say for at least for me, like, I feel much better about using my skills for for something like this than I do, of course, when I'm, like, working for a corporation. I think Yeah. Of course. A lot of people can sort of, relate to that. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. I I I used data science, a few times, like, in in NFT space. I used it for,
so I'm involved in this, a historical NFT community called Punicos, and and I created a database for them as well, like, scraping the the the name point blockchain and producing the the categories for for for those assets and so on. So, you know, so it's it's always good, like, to to, you know, I think use it in this context that something that you enjoy rather than something, like, you know, making someone else some corporation money. So
Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And so now recently, I reached out, originally because you had started a your own NFT project, which you called very, very spicyly, Art Ponzi. Yeah. Yeah. In all caps. Art Ponzi. And so I was wondering if maybe you can just explain to us, what Art Ponzi is and how does it differ from most other NFT collections since it does have a much different mechanism than like, you know, for example, people think of NFTs with like 10,000 profile picture types of collections or, like, it's it's it's a bit it's quite different than that. Yeah. So this is more, like a almost like a passion project that
is supposed to fund what I want to do next, to be honest. So, our our Ponzi is and and I I really I'm really enjoying this actually, doing this collection. I'm doing something every week. Well, at least trying to do every week. Maybe it might go longer for some cases. So the difference with our policy of our policy from other collections is that, first of all, it's not a generative collection. It's a it's, you know, each work is a manual, production. So so I do each piece with myself without any, you know, generation or anything like that. I do use coding, but I'll come to that. And, so the mechanics is different and and also that is in the name. And and like you said, I call it SPICELY ARTPONSE in all capitals on purpose Because, so when you look at the the artists in NFT space right now, they are, you know, either producing one of one works. Right? And they're selling it on SuperRare or Foundation or something. And or they're doing a lot of sometimes generative works, and they're, you know, sending over as well. But, then you have some artists who are one of one artist lonely who sell tokens. And what they do is that they sell these, they call it art token, and they sell, for example, like, 50 of them. And after selling that, they produce an artwork and airdrop this artwork to its holders every week. So every week, or or every month depending on their speed, they deliver a new artwork for their collectors and that, basically, that our token is a is a mechanism used for airdrops. Mhmm. So what I wanted to do so this mechanism, of course, as you can see, there there is no some there is some trust involved in this. Right? Because you expect to get a new, art like, there is no artwork in the beginning. There is just a token, and then you start receiving the artwork.
It's like a right it's kind of a promise to a future artwork that will be given to you. Yeah. Exactly.
So what I wanted to do was a little bit different. I wanted to do it. It still involves trust, obviously. And and I I refuse to call anything that says 100% trustless. Everything, even in Voloketane, is it involves some level of trust. But there is still some trust involved in my mechanism, but I think much less than this mechanism, the art token mechanism that has been talked about. What I do is that I do an artwork every week. And I dropped the the the new artwork to the previous holders. But that's new artwork that I produced will also be used for an airdrop for the next artwork that I'm gonna produce. So, and this is where the Ponzi mechanism as we would call it comes in. Because, the first artwork was one of one, and the second one was an addition of one of two. So one piece went into went into the auction, and the second, the second edition, was airdropped to the folder of the first, first NFT. Mhmm. And now I just actually minted the third piece. And one of the those it will be three editions, and one of those editions will be, auctioned, and the remaining two will be airdropped to the produce holders. And why did there is less trust involved in this? Is that because every single piece is an artwork itself. So what by by buying it, you're actually buying the art itself, but that also becomes a token for the next airdrop. So there's still some trust involved because you expect to be receiving airdrop, but it's less so because the token itself is an artwork as well. It didn't include an artwork. And Right. I called it art policy, of course, because there is this almost like a pyramid level structure. But, actually, you know, from the very beginning, I made it clear that at number 10, we will stop. So there is no more, you know, everlasting promise or anything like that. At at tenth after the tenth drop, the tenth tenth, piece will be 10 editions, and one of them will be again auctioned, and nine of them will be airdropped to the ninth piece's holders. And finally, after the tenth piece is done, I'll actually have hopefully enough money to fund my next project, which I already have finished. And, and in that collection, 10 pieces will be airdropped to the holders of the tenth piece in art posi. And that's the end of it. And at that point, I'll ask my collectors, basically, what should we do next? Should we start a new cycle? You know, a new cycle of one to 10? And what we can do this time is that actually we can actually bring in other artists. Right? So we can actually maybe other artists can join to the community. They can auction their own merch, or if they want, they can actually just keep the token and almost like a art exchange between other artists. Right? So you can actually for example, you're an artist that comes here, and then you produce your first work. And then the second edition will be second piece will be two editions. And one of the that will be another artist who will keep their piece and airdrop one piece to you. So it's almost like an artist art swap kind of thing can happen as well in the future iterations. So so, you know, there are a lot of ideas like that where it can go, but I want that part to be determined after the tenth piece and after I deliver all the promises I made and the community decides basically together. I don't wanna be the sole decision maker at that point. Right. So it's really interesting. I mean, so you're
basically, the the earlier you are into the art Ponzi, the more art you will receive Yes. As part of the collection. And then by the end of it, it goes up to 10. Basically, it sounds like to me, like, some people will say, like, oh, you're basically just creating a DAO. Like, you're creating, like, ArtPonzi DAO a bit or you're allowing for that potentially to form if if that's what people wanted.
Yes. I mean, I I my you know, if if everything worked amazingly and if everything works perfectly, yeah, that will be amazing if there could be a DAO eventually where, you know, holders of, you know, the ArtPonzi collection can actually make these decisions together. I mean, I'll do that anyway without forming a dial. But, you know, because, like I said, I want the holders to to decide what happens next. And I'd be happy to, you know, work towards building it further with creating, you know, making those different mechanisms that I mentioned, maybe getting new artists on board and so on. But, you know, it's also I don't want to be the sole decision maker at that point. I just wanted to make it clear that the promise of it ends at number 10, and it's not a forever lasting Ponzi or anything like that because, you know, I I can't, you know, put myself under that. Yeah. So it's not it's not really a Ponzi, but it takes the shape of a of a pyramid similar to, like, you know, pyramid schemes and Ponzis and things like that. Exactly. So and and that's the joke there a little bit as well. Like, I you know, it is a Ponzi after all until tenths dropped, and then at that point, it's not a Ponzi anymore. But, and since since I hopefully, since I'm making it clear, hopefully, it's not a real Ponzi. Hopefully. Right. Right. I wonder, like, a question that I have is whether or not do you think that there will be more rarity for the piece that is auctioned off versus the pieces that were airdropped? Well, the because it's an ERC $1.01 $5.05 $11.55, because of that, it's an additions contract. So, technically, there is no difference between, you know, let's say let's talk about piece number five, for example. Technically, there is no difference between that one piece that was auctioned versus the other four that are airdropped.
Like, in the token itself? Yeah. In the token itself. Or the contract. But, like, in the the history of
that piece. But even that, like, you can't differentiate that on OpenSea, for example. Like, you know, the token ID is the same even. So you can't really differentiate that. I I mean, we can for example, I will give an example. There's a historical NFT collection called Curio Cards, and it's ERC well, I think it's no. Actually, it was, I think, ERC 20, and then it changed. I'm not sure. But basically, that collection, has additions. And there is no really premium of because, you know, in in the historical entity, it's really important the timestamps, right, like, which one is earlier and so on. And clearly, some of those additions were minted before the some of the others. But there is no easy way to see it on any interface or even even on blockchain. I'm not sure. Probably it's there is somewhere to notice it in the blockchain by looking at the the chain of events, basically, from how it changed hands from wallet to wallet. Essentially, you can probably detect that, but it's very difficult. And today, at least, there's no premium for those that are, you know, time stamped earlier because there is no easy way to detect that. But, yeah, for the for the for the other ones, I mean, for the for for this case as well, I I doubt that it will be at least anytime soon.
Okay. I was just curious. And so what is also interesting about, like, this whole collection that you're doing, that you sort of alluded to is that all of the art is stored a 100% on chain from what I understand. Yeah. And so that means that there's as far as I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no type of, like, URL in the metadata like most other No. Like, NFT art pieces where you have, like, a link to an IPFS or a link to if if if you got a shitty one and link to an HTTP, type of link. Yeah. No. But, yeah, could you explain what what what that looks like? And because then, also, just a side note that that, you know, a lot of people have this misunderstanding that an NFT is just sort of like a link, you know, to a URL. Yeah. Anyways Yeah. So I think about
95% of NFTs are linked to a URL, but out of those, I would say 50% is linking to at least IPFS. So IPFS is, you know, interplanetary fire system. You you have a relatively, let's say, decentralized way to permanently store, assets. Even then, it's not 100% permanent because you have to pin it and stuff. There's lots of technicals involved. But, it it is a fairly good solution in my opinion. But, yeah, like, the other 50% is, I think even, like, things like board apes and so on. They're just linked to a a file in a server that is controlled by the, you know, that company. So that's that's a that's really not a good mechanism. The the ideal way the the best most ideal way, I guess, is to have things stored on the chain. So, for example, when you have when you look at things like Art Blocks, the probably the most popular art project, they actually have a way to immutably or let's say, they have a way to keep the artwork permanent, thanks to blockchain. What they do is that they store the code that produces the output on chain. So So they use, for example, like, if you're using, j like JavaScript or processing some sort of, you know, those generative, art languages, if you're using those, they store them on the blockchain so that if something happens to the file that is actually stored in the server, because if you look at the blockchain, Art Blocks Artworks are actually stored in Art Blocks' own website, but they at least also store the code. So that means that if something happens to Art Blocks server, someone else can just run that code that is stored on the chain and reproduce the output. Of course, there are still some issues. For example, they don't store the libraries. So if something happens to the programming language, then it's not permanent and stuff. This goes into all levels of on chain nerdiness, basically, at that point. What I do is that I want to have zero dependency. So no dependency on a programming language, no dependency on on any server or anything, basically. I want to actually store the media file on the chain. So all you need is either a browser or not even a browser if you have an SVG viewer program, whatever, basically, it would run and show you the artwork that I'm producing, essentially. So that's the difference between, I guess, on chain artworks and, you know, off chain. There are different levels of dependencies, and I think mine is probably the the the the most, permanent or most immutable version. There are a few of those projects, by the way, that does this as as immutable and as mine. So I'm not the first for sure.
And so, like, is it I mean, was it expensive to, like, mint to mint these types of art pieces because of, you know, directly using a media file on chain? Yeah. Normally, it is.
So if I were to try to store something like a a a a GIF file or PNG, JPEG file, any sort of rastering, you know, rastering files type that will cause Yeah, like, you know, thousands and millions probably. But I'm using a file type called SVG. And this kind of the other thing that I'm trying to kind of highlight in my collection as well. So SVG is a really cool file type. So you know, everyone needs to learn about this, like, I'm gonna get very nerdy now. Because SVG is unlike the raster type file type raster file type. So, you know, it doesn't work with pixels. It works with mathematical coordinates and and, like, it's almost like a code, essentially. Like, you have a, you have almost like you have an output that shows the the coordinates of where the line should go from one place to another or what type of circle you're drawing and stuff like that. And it's recognized by all browsers. It's recognized by different SVG view programs. So, you know, it's a it's pretty future proof, let's say programming or not programmatic, but file type. And it allows also really cool things, right? Because it's done mathematically and algorithmically, it can scale infinitely. So when you zoom into any PNG or JPEG or even GIF file, when you zoom in, it will start to get pixelated because that's how it works. It's pixelated. But with SVGs, when you zoom in, it's just continues to scale. So it's infinitely scalable. And now when you know, when we're talking about things like metaverse and stuff like that, and I don't know where these things are gonna go. But, you know, imagine that you have a, you know, I don't know how our lives will be in fifty years. But in fifty years, if you have a metaverse sky, let's say, you can actually essentially put that artwork on the sky, and it will be infinitely high quality as it is on a small frame. And and that's the advantage. Right? Like, you can put it on your TV at home. You can put it on the metaverse sky. You can put it on a small frame, and it will still have the same quality as it's small or high or or large. The other thing is that I'm doing exclusively glitch art and animated arts basically on on SVG. And And this is I think the unique part in what I'm doing. I think very few people have done animated SVGs. In in NFT space, especially, we mostly see those like static ones. And there is no frame loss as well. Right? You you have those movie files or MP four and so on. They're usually limited with frames. You have like 25, 25, you know, frames per second and so on. This one is infinite again. So if you actually slow it down, or do anything like that, it will have the infinite frame between one frame and another. Does that make sense? Right. Because it's programmatically done. It's again, you know, any there is no frame loss between an animation. So there is no, you know, let's try to for anyone who's interested in glitch art. If you if you look at glitch arts, it's usually mostly like, let's say, 30 frames, button together. So you have 30 frames jumping across each other, and it's creating this glitch effect. And it's it's really cool. Of course, I love it. But it's like you can, you know, you can go to up to 30. Okay, let's say, like, really insane artists go to the level of 100 frames. But in my works, it's like infinite frames. Right? It's it's like, you know, there is no there is no frame loss between a one shot versus the other. And that's, again, something about SVGs. Because it doesn't really work in frames. Like Yeah. It it works with mathematically. So it all Right. You know, when you stop it, it will stop and and you will see it in that, you know, exact frame. Yeah. And and, of course, because it's SVG formats, because it's all coded and algorithmic and everything, it's also super small file, and then I can store it on Ethereum itself. And it's essentially a text, right? What I store on the it's a text, but it's recognized by browsers to turn into a visual art piece. And that allows us to, you know, I store it still costs to be honest, like, it still costs a bit like, for example, the one I minted today, I caught a gray at four today. So I minted it with only $40 Bear market is helping me actually to to mint things cheaply relatively. If I were to mint this last year, it would cost me like $2.3000, even even this, you know, small file. So that's also another Maybe that's why it hasn't been used still so much yet. I mean, people could have done it years ago before the NFT high Right. Last year, but nobody did. So, yeah, I really enjoy this. It gets really nerdy, like when I go into the, bits of it, but SVG is really cool. You can do, like, for example, my new piece today that I minted, it's called merge left. It's depicting merge, actually. And it allows me to do, like, pretty much an on chain story visual story. Like, I I have scenes. Like, I have a proof of work scene, then there is a merge scene. And then there is a there is a, there's a proof of stake scene, and that proof of stake scene lasts forever after that. So you kind of can do the things that you can't do with GIF or other media files. Right. So so a lot of I think firsts in my collection, I actually like I like on same glissard, longest animated NFT. I think the second my second piece dropped less because I think the longest animated NFT so far. This third piece will be probably the I'm not sure, but probably, the first never ending NFT that is not a loop. Like, because normally you have loose, but this is not a loop. It it starts with the frame with the scene, second scene, and the third scene, and that's the third scene last forever. So a lot of niche firsts, I would say, in this collection, and I hope to continue that tradition in the coming pieces as well.
Yeah. It's very cool. So, like, if I understand correctly, like, inside the SVG file, you have it planned to where the SVG itself changes. Mhmm. So it's so it's I mean, it one, it is changing through the glitch art Yeah. But then it is changing through, like, the base, like, animation Yeah. That that's happening on it. Yeah.
And so, like, through that, this next one that or the one that I guess you said you've minted today, it's telling the story of, like, the transition from proof of work to proof of stake on Ethereum. Yeah. On chain on Ethereum. Yeah. Exactly. And it is it's cool because, like, you know, you you the piece starts with proof of work and then there's a merge and then proof of stake, but then it always stays proof of stake. So it's not like, you know, you you have three seconds to see that proof of work. And from that onward, you won't be able to see it, and then it will always be proof of stake after that point.
But I guess you could just take the SVG code that you have in the contract Yeah. And replay that if you wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can do that. Of course. Yeah. Right. But as far as, like, on chain, what is it right now is different. Yeah.
And then, you know, the second piece, for example, had other cool elements, like, again, things you can't do with a GIF file. Like, if you look at my second piece drop left, there's, like, fabric of the space is opening, and there are some artworks dropping to a pyramid. Right? Pyramid is like the market. It's like a lot of symbolism. I tried to do a lot of symbolism. And the art pieces are dropping, but it's also I'm trying to also highlight some sort of I'm trying to highlight a bit of also the impatience of the collectors and how in NFT market, like people are very demanding and you know, stuff like that. So actually, if you open that piece and wait one hour, another piece starts dropping as well, like a completely separate piece than what's already dropping. And And then if you wait another few hours, there will be another piece that's dropping. And it's it's you can only see it if you keep that tab open on your browser for, like, a few hours. Like, you don't otherwise see that piece. And probably, like, you know, zero zero point one per 0.001% of collectors will be interested in this kind of nerdiness. But I like those Easter eggs, like putting those into the into those who like seeing it. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Yeah.
And I think the other, the other piece like, the first piece that you did was sort of like, an homage to to your wife and, like, to your to your daughter being born. Yeah. I thought it was really nice. Yeah. Yeah. I did that. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, you know, it we're
you know, I'm of course, you know, I'm I'm really involved father, and I I love, you know, my kids being involved. But, of course, ultimately, it's the it's the mother who gives birth and then does the job, really. And, and, yeah, my wife, I asked her to, like, give me a pose. And and I basically first drew it on paper, and then I, took a photo of it. Then I put it on the on the, on Inkscape, like, it's a kind of program I use. And then I drew, like, layered over it with my own drawing, on digital drawing, I mean. And then, then I made it turned it into a Glee chart. And, yeah, like, I I mean, yeah, my my wife is a good model. She's, I mean, not a model officially, but, you know? So, yeah, that was that was really nice. I also, like, put nice stuff there as well. Like, for example, her heart beats, like, I think, so the baby's heart beats faster than the mother's heart in that piece. So, you know, because the babies have faster heart rate. Like, lots of, you know, my wife really loved it. I always also consulted her. Like, for example, the colors are her favorite colors in that piece. I didn't, you know, publicly say this before, but, yeah, it's kind of lots of things together with her.
Wow. You got your, yeah, great husband. Great husband. Hope hope others are listening to that.
Well, yeah.
Hi, everyone. If you're enjoying this episode so far, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share with a friend, and join the crypto leftist communities on Discord or Reddit, which you can find links to in the show notes. If you're enjoying the interview or find the content I make important, you can pitch into my efforts starting at $3 a month on patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist to help me out and join the newest patrons like Steven, Jessica, Girafki, and Oleksandr, which really helps since making this stuff isn't free in terms of money or time. As a patron, you'll get a shout out on an episode like I just did and access to bonus content like Q and A episodes where you can submit and vote on questions you'd like me to answer, and I'll give my thoughts in roughly twenty minutes. In the last bonus episode, I gave a review of Vitalik's newest paper that he wrote with Glenn Weil, which described his ideas for decentralized society, which heavily outlines different use cases for what he has called soul bound tokens, which has caused a bit of a stir in the media. In the bonus episode, I review some of the main points from the article, as well as give my thoughts on some of the good and the bad things that I think are mentioned in the paper, as well as some of the alternatives that have been discussed in crypto world. Of course, I'll still be making free content like this interview to help spread the message that blockchain doesn't need to be used further entrenched capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it. So if that message resonates with you, I hope you'll consider helping out. So, yeah, I think it's a it's a really interesting, NFT collection. I'm not one like, I'm not usually into, like NFT art as I've said before. I just tend to be I'm more interested in sort of like the people who are doing things really, really differently, which is why I was interested in, for example, Jonathan Mann's collection and then and then yours as well. And it's also like, I don't know. Maybe maybe it's not, not coincidental that it also tends to be people who are, more left leaning or, you know, who are more interesting.
Yeah. Hopefully. Yeah. I mean, I'm talking to a few other leftists for some joint projects, actually. And, yeah, they're
really creative, let's say. I can say that I mean, for now, there's nothing materialized, but, hopefully, we'll do some stuff together. Nice. And do you think, like, if if this goes really well, you'll, quit your normal data science job and be a NFT artist
I don't know. Slash NFT data scientist. Yeah. I mean, n f NFT space is so speculative, at least for now. I would love to be a full time artist. Of course, I would love to. I guess the way I was raised, at least in parent parents, I think I'm more, like, a bit risk averse, I guess. Sure. Yeah. So I don't fully plan on quitting, but, who knows? I mean, I would love to, like, just if it's just up to my desires. Yes. But, you know, having two kids and stuff, I also want I also seek stability. So Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.
So the other thing that we wanted to talk about is, the really interesting analysis that you did, using your data science skills. I think you released it maybe last year or so. Yeah. Where you compared sort of like the potential inequalities that are created through proof of work versus proof of stake. So this is sort of like you're sort of taking on the critique, especially from Bitcoiners and from and from just crypto critics in general as well, that proof of stake is sort of like this rich get richer scheme and that it exacerbates inequality, more than proof of work. And so, like, you took that on and sort of did your own data science analysis. So I was wondering if you may can maybe, like, walk us through the the methodology of your study that was sort of simulating these things. Yeah.
So, you know, the obvious upside of having proof of stake, of course, is environmental impact. Right? Like, we will have a much cleaner, you know, an environment friendly civil protection mechanism finally. And the criticism that usually comes from the proof of work camp or people who are more leaning towards that is that, you know, proof of work is like, you know, you actually do a work to get things and proof of stake is just, you know, you stake your money and then you basically have the, you know, it it kind of it's an interest rate almost. So you don't really, you know, do anything. It's a rich gets richer scheme. So this felt odd to me because, you know, people who actually buy those mining rigs are also doing an investment, and it's not like they're actually doing any work. It's that you're setting up a machine, and and that's actually how the, you know, proof of work mechanisms work mechanism works. Right? Like, you actually, you know, it solves the computation. Like, you're not doing the mathematical computation yourself. It's the machine that's doing it, and you basically invest it. Actually, a lot of times, these people don't even buy the mining rig. They they actually put money into those mining business operators. So you know, you have your ants pool, you have foundry, you know, they basically put money into those operations that actually return them the money. So there is it's really the mechanism or, is pretty similar to Provostec, to be honest with you, for for a mass majority of the retail space. I think there is a theoretical aspect that people consider. A lot of people are saying that, well, you can get a mining rig anywhere in the world, and it makes it a bit more easier to entry to to the system, right, like, to the proof of work system. You don't have to own the coin, like, the the of the native blockchain native coin of the blockchain to actually, you know, to to earn something from it. So so there are some I think there is something to their criticism, so I I I acknowledge that. But in reality or practically, the forces that make that could centralize proof of stake is impacting proof of work exactly the same way because the richer the way that I structured my analysis was that I split the the people into four camps. So you have rich staker, so a a validator who stake a significant amount, of the native coin of the blockchain into the proof of stake network. You have a rich miner who also has who invested in significant amounts to the mining rigs into the mining rigs in proof of work network. And then you have non rich staker and non rich miner or for just ease of convenience, let's call it poor staker and poor miner. Mhmm. So when you split them into these four groups, like and and you take a point snapshot like t zero and you look at t one, the the the increase in whatever that could help the rich staker will help equally the in percentage terms, it will help equally to poor staker. And whatever that helps rich miner will also percentage terms also help the poor miner. So and that difference change between rich staker and poor staker will not be more than the rich miner and poor miner eventually. And and if you actually put it into numbers, I mean, I don't know if you wanna go into the numbers, but, basically, this is what happened already. Like, in practice, in Bitcoin's lifespan, when you look at the the mining rigs that operated, outside China, especially because China, you know, regulation, there's a lot of, volatility. And if you exclude the new ones, their share, their hash rate increased significantly over time. And percentage wise, of course, also, like, if you exclude others, it it increased the similar similar way. So so there is it's no surprise that whatever that happens with proof of stake also happens with proof of proof of work in terms of percentage gains. Yeah, the the all the there is, although there is an additional element to proof of work, and this is what I try to, you know, highlight to people. In real life, there is economies of scale is has a has a big impact on our lives. Like, you know, the the reason one of the reasons that, you know, the rich always have better deals, one of the reasons why corporations have better deals, better tax rates even, is because, you know, of that economies of scale impact. And economic scale impacts not just on the material terms. When you're buying, for example, something in bulk, you pay less. And when you're or or, you know, when your your cost of operations are less when you're doing it in in bulk. But even even politically, right, when you're more powerful, you can influence political figures and and, you know, you get more politically favorable, you know, decisions for you. So so there is clearly this example right now in real life. In, so in proof of work, we are seeing this happening. Like, I I literally looked at Alibaba, and you can see there, like, there are offers for, like, I don't remember if it was the kilowatts or whatever. But basically, between different, hashes, you get or between different sizes of the mining equipments, you have different prices. Like literally, it's right there. Like, you can see the economy of scale in impacting proof of work network directly, you know, when you're buying it. And this is like what is publicly available. Imagine the level of impact that economies of scale has, when it's an OTC deal, like, on the counter. You know, it's it's even even, I think, exponentially cheaper for, bulk deals.
If you have a ton of money, basically, you can buy a ton of mining rigs for yeah. Just, like, at a huge discount that you can't get in proof of stake. Yeah. So in proof of stake, you have
because it's a at least not right now. Right? It's a digital realm right now. And it's in the protocol that every stake gets the same percentage of the amount of the like the the staking rewards. So so you don't have any difference between a poor staker or rich staker, other than the fact that they have operation costs. And clearly, those operations costs, they also require, of course, things like, you know, computers and and and, like, just for the validation. It's it's a fraction of what it is in proof of work, but there is some. And in that operation cost, still the rich ones have an advantage. But the actual staking rewards, there is no difference. And it's because of that, because it's the same price when you as a rich staker want to buy the native currency of the chain, or you're a poor staker that you want to buy the native currency of the chain, it's the same price for you. So it's actually, you know, not gonna make any difference. Someone on Twitter made a point that, you know, what if someone wants to buy OTC native currency? So what if what if you want to buy on the counter ETH? Are they really sizable amounts from some exchange, for example, wouldn't they sell you cheaper? I've never seen an example of it. That that is a good question, though, like it might happen. So there might still be some elements of I think, you know, a veil having a better deal than a, a a poorer, you know, staker. Yeah. And and that's, you know, I think we were dealing with you. Like, there is an element of, you know, capitalism getting involved here again. But I would argue that it's much less than proof of work. Right. Yeah. I I I can also imagine that Coinbase wants to,
needs to make money fast, and it would just be easier for them to make one large transaction to this whale. But also, partially, the whale wants to not drive up the prices if they're wanting to make a really big purchase, which is why they do it over the counter rather than, like, through the market. So it's also them as a way to get around the increasing costs that they would normally have to incur.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I I honestly I I mean, I don't know how that those deals work. So, it's likely that just the fact that they won't be able to drive the price higher, is enough for the exchange to not give additional discount on top of it. So So it's actually like the whale has a is at a disadvantage at the t zero. But, maybe, you know, because that they're doing OTC deal, maybe the exchange will actually not give it cheaper, but just the same price. Because if it would be all in the open market, it will be more expensive for the whale. So so I don't know. I can't really speculate on that part. But, yeah, there I think even if there is, this is probably a much smaller case than it in the case of proof of work. Right. Yeah. I I would imagine that's I mean, yeah, like we were talking about earlier,
like, it's it's sort it's it's the physical aspects of proof of work that actually make it more unequal to a certain degree. Not that because things are digital means that things are egalitarian by any means. Yeah. But, as far as yeah. It's just being able to to buy in bulk is just such a huge advantage. And so that's why I think we come to the conclusion that, like, proof of stake is not doesn't create more inequality than at least proof of work. But both of them do to some degree because they're both functioning under capitalism, and capitalism is a centralizing force anyways. Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. And, one one thing I wanna add because, you know, a lot of pro proof of work proponents say that, but, oh, but miners, you know, reinvest that money into other things. Like, you know, they can take profits. But that assumes that mining operators never reinvest in new mining equipment. And then also assumes that stakers never take profits from their stakes rewards. So that's a false assumption. It's it's a false dicta dicta like, there's no no. Know, you have to base your assumptions on equal grounds, essentially. So, that's why I don't agree with that. And another argument is that, proof of work, those mining equipment, they become outdated over time, so they have to rebuy those, and that's a cost to them. But that applies to the poorer miners as well. So again, like, whenever, like, all the arguments, I just would suggest or or, really recommend everyone. When they're thinking about these, they have to think about the equal grounds for the wealthier and poorer participants of both systems to see whether that impact is increasing equally or or higher in one case or another. Yeah. Definitely.
Yeah. I think people if you want to know more about this, definitely check out the, the mirror post that Chain left published. I'll link it into the, into the show description, but I know you gotta leave, since you have another call. Yeah. So maybe if you want to just leave with people where they can keep with you and maybe find your ArtPonzi collection.
Mhmm. Yeah. So, actually, the easier easiest way to see all of these, actually, both the article and the, you know, and the collection is that just go to, Linktree chain left. So, you know, that that will kind of have all of it essentially. Okay. Yeah. Linklinktr.ee/chain left or just Google Linktree chain left. That will also take that take you there. So all of them are linked from there. Cool. Yeah. So yeah. Be sure to check it out. And yeah. Thanks so much, Chainleft.
You are it's an honor that you are my doppelganger on Twitter.
Same. I'm really appreciating the the work that you're doing. And and I wanna thank you for having me, Blockchain Socialists. And also, like, thank you for doing doing the work that you're doing. Really appreciate it. And then really enjoying your content. And, hopefully, we'll we can bridge this gap between, between the the Web three, let's call it, and, and the leftists and produce use cases that actually help people. For sure. Thank you, comrade. Cheers.
Bye. Thanks for the kind words. See you.