OTNS: Is Praxis a bunch of fascists dressed as libertarians?
In this episode of OTNS, we spoke to Ali Breland, a journalist at Mother Jones who has written on crypto and politics, about his recent publication about the links between Praxis and far right figures. We spoke about his experience of going to a Praxis sponsored party in NYC, his interviews with ex-employees about the fascist sympathies of the founder Dryden Brown, and how they try to seduce " cool kids" to join them. We also try applying for a citizenship! Check out a previous episode to le...
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Alright. Hello, everyone. You are listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast. I'm Josh, and I'm here with Primavera. We are continuing our overthrow of the network state. Today, now we're here with Ali Braland, who is a journalist at Mother Jones, who recently wrote a piece, I'm just pulling it up here, titled A Peter Thiel Linked Startup Is Courting New York Sinesters and Plodding a Libertarian Paradise. The Praxis Society envisions a Mediterranean enclave with just the right kind of people. So it was like, a piece talking about Ali's kind of, story of encountering, people from Praxis society and going to this party and digging into them a little bit. And so I thought it'd be a good opportunity to talk specifically about this example of Praxis society, which is one that has pretty overtly kind of, embraced the idea and language around the network state as far as I understand. And, there have been rumors sort of crawling around in different spaces about, you know, which which island they're going to buy in the Mediterranean or which piece of land they're going to buy, in the in most probably in Eastern Europe or something like that in order to create their their utopia. But so yeah. Ali, if you want to maybe if you wanna give an introduction to yourself a little bit in case there's anything I missed, and recount us with the story of your, like, first encounter, at this party with, Praxis people.
Hey. Yeah. Thank you for having me. That all sounds about right. I'm a reporter at Mother Jones. Sometimes, occasionally, like, I freelance, kind of, like, on the intersection of tech politics and the Internet. And, yeah, this story kind of, like, I guess, was something that was, like, very much on that. I guess, look, the way I came to practice was that I had first seen, like, a New York Magazine story that was, like, sparse on details, but some a writer, who I think was, like, young and this is one of their first stories had managed to get into one of their parties. It seemed like they were doing this weird scene cultivation thing in the New York downtown scene that I guess kind of comprises like Times Square, which if your listeners aren't familiar is this I'm not going to get it right, but like, basically it's like a sort of arts and cultural and persona building scene in Downtown New York where people are sort of there are some people who are, like, very into left politics and then there are some people who are, like, sort of, quote unquote, like, post left or dissident right who, I guess, are engaging varying degrees of, like, right wing to even, like, fascier kind of politics. And I was, like, very interested in what this supposed Peter Thiel funded loft was doing amidst this, why they were trying to cultivate these people. And so I kind of had an eye on it, but, like, I didn't have any clear ins. I would, like, go to sort of different events downtown, and, like, people would occasionally bring it up or especially when they heard, like, what my job was and what I was interested in. They would mention that they were curious about Praxis and ask if I knew anything. And so then I forget, like, how it came on my radar, but, like, there was they're having an event week, where they were throwing a lot of parties, that were semi open to the public. You could RSVP and get in. And so I went to this sort of rap party. It's like a music rap event that they had funded, where they had a bunch of really cool drill artists and, like, Jersey club rappers that I would have been interested in seeing even if it weren't for work. And so I thought that was really interesting, and so I wanted to go see more. And I ended up going to this weird party. Yeah. It worked out perfectly. Yeah. And I I went to their event. It was, like, weird. It was, like, sparsely populated. It was in Midtown, which is, like it was, like, around, like, chain restaurants. I left my credit card at the venue, and so I went back the next day to get it. And it was, like, not seen at all. I think there was, like, some sort of veteran or military, like, social group that was, like, having an event there when I went to get my credit card. But, yeah, it was, like, super weird. I was trying to figure out what's going on. I didn't get a lot of answers initially, but it was, like, this sort of weird scene. Everyone was, like, talking about Peter Thiel kind of vaguely being behind it. The people I was speaking with were not directly involved in Praxis, so they didn't understand the specific mechanics. But there was this, like, dark energy in the air because people kind of knew that maybe there was this, like, seedier thing happening going on that they didn't quite get.
And I was trying to figure out what that was. I guess I'm also surprised maybe that, like, people like Peter Thiel and other Silicon Valley, types have properties like this potentially to cultivate, whatever certain scenes that revolve around maybe the ideas that they are, interested in.
Yeah. Totally. There is, like, the story was kind of almost intended to get into this, like, more widely. But, yeah, like, I was very interested in trying to understand, like, what Peter Thiel was scene for and, like, why it was also through the guise of Praxis, which is this startup that is, like, I found out trying to build a, I guess, like, city in the Mediterranean that is, like, sort of crypto based, but, like, sort of not. It's, like, unspecified as to, like, what this specific crypto link is. But another thing that ended up not getting mentioned in the story is, like, there are a lot of rumors about Thiel and, like, other far right sort of billionaires writing these checks, like, off the book. Like, I don't I don't know if this is a fact. I wanna be very clear. This is just, like, a rumor. I can't. I've I haven't seen any sort of direct paper trail. But there are these, like, open rumors if you talk to people in these scenes downtown about money flowing, not just in Apraxis, but other sort of spaces, where cultural and reading events are going on, and, like, different readings for to try to, I guess, like, seed these spaces for this sort of, like, frame of right wing thinking that I think is, like, not normally accepted in New York. And it's not normally accepted in, like, the culture of Vanguard, which I think, like, is seen to be, true or not, like, dominated by sort of, like, liberal, progressive, and left type people. And, like, Praxis is, like, very much like a city building start up in a literal sense, and that's, like, its main function. But it was also, I think, useful, and as my reporting, like, went on, it's useful to understand it as, like, a vector and, like, a window into, like, how these people were thinking about, like, politics and, like, what I guess, like, these far right VC funders, are, like, thinking about, like, kind of what they wanted to, like, change and shift When you I guess, like, American political came to this debate. Event? Was it, like, a presentation
of, of praxis? Like, this is who we are, this is what we're doing, come join us, become a citizen, or something like that.
I think there was different types of events. So the first party that I was at, it was, like, thrown. It was, like, the rappers. That was it was in the background. It was almost hidden. There was, like, a rumor going around that Praxis wasn't even involved, which didn't seem to make any sense because it was, like, very much a part of a week that Praxis was intentionally holding. That, I think, was, like, more of, like, a brand building exercise. The other kind of event which I never went to is, like, they were also throwing parties inside their loft headquarters for a while, where they would invite from what I heard, they would invite, like, these sort of podcast Substack writers in this, like, weird post loft space. They would invite, like, models and these other people. And then the other kind of more formal event that they had, which I also attended later in the week, was this open house series that they had, where if you registered and went, which I did, I just you could go and, like, kind of talk to people in the actual organization and have, like, a talk not just about, the scene cultivation of the cultural aspects of what they were getting into, but, the sort of, like, what Praxis literally is pitching itself as to investors and, like, what the primary function of it's supposed to be. And so I went to their loft for that during the day and just talked to their head of research about, what their aspirations were and, like, what the the planning process was going like for building the actual city,
that they were trying to build. They're telling people that they're trying to build. So what, I mean, what types of things were they saying? What were they telling you?
Yeah. They they had, like, a bunch of glossy, three d renderings of these modernist buildings that looked, very much like Zaha Hadid buildings because, according to what they told me, Zaha Hadid Architects, they've been speaking with them about building. I forget if it was government buildings or, like, private buildings, but there was, like, some distinction in Zaha Hadid Architects was potentially going to be contracted in in discussions with them for contracts on one of these. According to what I was told, I reached out to Zaha Hadid Architects. They never said anything back to me, not even a no comment, nothing off the record. So I don't I don't know what it is on their end. But that's, like, one thing they were talking about. They at different points in my reporting, I came across from former employees and from what they told me directly there. It was like, they were talking about building, the city at one point in North Africa. It was talk Italy was talked about. Montenegro was talked about as, like, potential locations. I think that if I'm remembering correctly, I wanna say it was Morocco or another North African country that that I was told about at the open, at the open house. And they talk said that they were talking to the state phosphorus company about potentially acquiring land that that State Phosphorus Company owned and building on that. But a lot of it was also, like, very vague. Like, they'd only raised 20,000,000 at that point, which is, like, you know, enough to, like, maybe build a hotel or two, not, like, an entire city. So, like, they were very much in, like, almost a preplanning phase where they couldn't lock anything in fully because they didn't have, like, the capital base to actually make this thing work, which I I think they understood.
Yeah. I find it, like, very fascinating with practice. It's like because they talk about, like, a lot of stuff that is very unclear, but it's like, this is literally, like, you cannot talk about any of that with $20,000,000 in your pocket. It's like it's like so either is, like, trying to raise more funds, to do that. Like, I don't know if those parties were actually some form of fundraising to, like, talk about the vision and try to, get people to buy in. Or is it just, like like, what's the plan? Like, if do do they have, like, a road map or something?
Yeah. That's actually really important. So there's, like, almost this will help, I guess, like, draw the delineation for there's almost, like, two phases that Praxis presents, and there is a sort of more professional, like, managerial Silicon Valley tech face that they they have that they put on to their investors and this sort of more, I think that this is like a a common term, but they that to what they call, like, the gray beards. And they, like, I guess, present themselves as a company that is, like, doing these kinds of things. And so, like, the the concerts and events were not for the gray beards. They were for, a different side. They were for not pursuing VC money, but pursuing the cultural aspect. I think that their thesis what had been told to me that their thesis was was that they almost in the way that, like, Berlin or, like Williamsburg or Brooklyn, or, like, other parts of LA have become these sort of very attractive places, which wasn't always the case. They came through that through this park of them becoming attractive places first for artists and these sort of cultural tastemakers. And so what they were trying to do is like establish their own set of cultural tastemakers within New York that they would get at least some of them to go to Praxis and then in getting this like attractive group of people to come first they would be able to build out the rest of the city and so that was what kind of the it's my understanding that was the sort of cultural aspect of what was happening. But, yeah, like, I think that they put on a relatively, like, professional face and, like, weren't throwing these sorts of parties or really having the sort of gray beard investor VC types at these parties. Everyone I saw kind of at the the party I went to and my understanding from talking to other people is it's usually like a sort of, like, younger set, Zoomers and young millennials and more cultural people, then And then and then with some exceptions, I think that there are people at the intersection. Like, I don't know much about Rivetez, but my guess is that, you know, she'd be someone that would straddle both worlds. But, yeah, she usually skews Jonker for the concerts, and then they have the professional VC stuff.
So it's kind of like get the cool kids. It's like an explicit strategy for gentrification.
Yeah. Kind of. Just do, like, a sort of simulated gentrification within New York, and then, I guess, like, you know, ship that gentrification off to North Africa or Italy or somewhere in the Adriatic.
And, what is the because, like, from what you say to me, I have, like, a hard time, hearing anything network state. Like, it it sounds more like either an attempt of just bringing cool kids, in a particular neighborhood to gentrify it or perhaps if if we need to push a little bit the narrative, it's more like a charter city. But, like, to which extent do they, like, do they at least claim, to be or to become a network state as opposed to just a neighborhood of people?
Yeah. This is, I guess, like, some some of my answer might be a little limited because I'm, like, not an expert in network states in the way that you guys are. But, like, this is also a problem that they struggle to articulate internally. So, like, from talking to former employees, they the CEO Dryden and other top leadership at Praxis would sort of articulate this vision of being this place that could be a city that would be a part of, like, potentially networks of other cities where people could, like, migrate freely in and out and this sort of, like, vote with your feet democratic process could occur where people could go to the most attractive cities, and it would be this extremely laissez faire, like, free capital, free human inflows and outflows, thing could happen. But then this sort of contradictory problem of it was that, from what I was told, Dryden and sort of like, also had this sort of, like, authoritarian impulse, that was both manifest in the books he was reading, but also what he was saying about, like, the vision that he wanted to cultivate and curate. And so he it seemed like he was never able to sort of square and rectify his vision for, like, a free market neoliberal, like, libertarian paradise with, like, his desire to have, order and control in a specific way that he wanted to. So, like, I think there was, like, clearly the network state aspiration, but, like, he's they're really into, like, far right sort of, like, fascist and fascist adjacent things, and it's it's hard to make those things work. And when you have that kind of tendency, even if you start off as, like, a free market sort of enterprise, like, eventually, you'll you'll start cracking down on things, which is, like, maybe a problem inherent to all network states. I don't know. But, like, they maybe we're just jumping the gun on what, like, an issue is,
or what an inevitable issue kind of is with these kinds of things. Yeah. One of the things that may be worth, like, adding for context based on the the bit of research that I've done is that, Praxis Society I mean, one we spoke about Praxis Society in a previous episode earlier in the year where we kind of, read we read, like, the first part of Dryden's, like, first blog post, which was very, like, I mean, for me, I would say fascistic in that it was kind of, like, glorifying manifest destiny in The Americas, and that his family, his great grandfather was, like, paramounts to basically the killing of indigenous people, and that, you know, they were able to claim it for themselves. And that was a beautiful thing, and we need to go back to the day whenever men were able to to be men and go to the frontier and all this type of stuff. But also, Praxis is funded by Pronomos Capital. It's one of their their funders, and they are a VC fund specifically made for charter cities and, inherently network states. So, like, the the main founder is Patrick Friedman, who is the what is he? I think he's the grandson of, of Milton Friedman. Definitely carries the same type of politics. And then as well, an adviser is Balaji. He is listed as an adviser on the Pronomos Capital, site at least. And, yeah, their portfolio includes basically exclusively things, like Praxis, including Prospera. It includes other kind of, like, smaller things. Like, they have some things in Africa, and other such things for, like, digital nomads type, which are all kind of, like, kind of tangentially related, I guess, to their wider kind of ideal of, like, making connected cities that then people can go back and forth between us, like, what the ideally wants, like you like you described. But yeah. So, like, there is almost like a it's pretty if you just, like, connect the dots of the people that are associated with it, there's already kind of, like, this right wing association, just with the people that they're taking money from, the things that they have written, the type of, content that they have created. There I know there's a video on YouTube. I don't know if it's still up there, but that advertises Praxis Society, which is very I mean, if you just, like, if you just watch it, it's, like, twenty minutes long, but it's, like, very much a, like, it's it's it there has a lot of very fascistic undertones, let's say. But, yeah, I guess, at the same time, one of the things that you noted in your piece is that there were, like, people talking about the fact that a lot of, especially Dryden and others, were reading, like, right wing literature, like, philosophical literature. Theirs is, like, explicitly fascist. Like, it's I don't know. There's, like, no other real way to kind of, like, describe it besides that because they were philosophers who described themselves as such. So, like, I'm trying to, like, stress that I'm not, like, trying to, like, make a hyperbole or something like that.
Yeah. Totally. It is yeah. It's, like, an inevitable thing that, like, comes back up. And in some ways too yeah. There's, like, very much, like, people who are openly, far right and, like, fascist. It's like Joyce Evola, who, like, I described in the piece as a fascist Italian writer and a cult researcher who worked with a Nazi branch of the SS. There's, like, Alexander Dugan, who is a contemporary Russian fascist. Yeah, Alexander Dugan. Others came up. There's people who are, like, less clear, but are like sort of things that, like, fascists like to read, and in the context of, like, everything else we know, it's, like, kind of obvious. And in some ways, this is a sort of extreme outlier. I don't think that, from what we know, Balaji is not sitting down and reading these kinds of things as best as I can tell. People like Andreessen are not, Peter Thiel, it's a little less clear, but I was reading The Californian Ideology, for a separate story that I'm doing on effective accelerationism that will come out soon, but it kind of made a very good point that like even when you're not doing outright sort of far right fascism, the results through this like sort of Californian ideology of like aggressive neoliberal free market principles that like champion the sort of tech Silicon Valley bro or person or individual above everyone else produce sort of similar results of oppression, even if the intent is not the same. And the authors are sort of making the really good point that for all of these things to work, they require like a sort of surf class and they require like an oligarchy to exist above them and, maybe the specifics of Pernoma or Prospero like work a little bit differently, but like for these digital nomads to work in these places and for it to be very attractive and useful to them, there has to be this sort of aggressive class dynamic where these people who are brown, which one is a general point, but two an explicit point of the California Ideology paper, These people that are brown have to be their underclass. And so in Silicon Valley, that takes, like, the form of, there being these engineers, and then there being the sort of, like, often Latino or other races, people who are the janitors, who are, like, working in the cafeterias. And then Prospera, like, Pronomos, and then eventually, like, if Praxis works or just, like, more extreme versions of that, where, like, I guess, like, the oligarchy systems are, like, flipped and, like, it's like tech is, like, of an oligarchy here in The United States that is very powerful and influential, but like in these sorts of spaces they become like the totalizing oligarchs, that do have like all of the power, and so even if the goal isn't explicitly fascist, like the results are going to be, like, pretty similar, and there's going to be a class of people whose freedoms will be fairly restricted, who will not have, like, resources, who will not have economic freedom, even if they do, like, on paper and they can technically move between different, sort of neoliberal free marketplaces where they probably can't, like, afford to live very nicely. Right. Yeah. It's sort of if you want to portray your kind of,
utopia that you will be able to live, like, very comfortably with all of these, like, amenities next to you. There has to be someone there that can give it to those people. And the cheaper that you can find for them to be able to give those amenities, you know, the more people then you can try to have come to your utopia. But it it there is this inherent need for a kind of underclass of people to to provide those services, at a cheap price as well just for the people who are investing in like, pro nomos who are investing in these types of things. There has to be class difference. Yeah. Yeah.
Exactly. It's like I mean, you know, as as a journalist, it's not my job to, like, foreclose on, like, different, like, sorts of, like, things that exist in the world. But, like, we, I think, have yet to see, like, an extremely aggressive free market, laissez faire type of economy, like, actually work in a way that is equitable. And, like, maybe one could exist, but, like, if you look to, like, places like Chile or whatever where it has been, like, tried and or, like, iterations of, I guess, The United States that were, like, more free market, relative to how they were now or how they were, like, pre nineteen eighties between, like, the depression and the eighties, like, you see a sort of, like, dark vision for what, like, does happen. You see, like, rampant inequality and, like, unrest. I'm like, I don't know. And maybe it's possible, but, like, I guess, like, what they're proposing, I sort of sort of seeks to recreate, like, pretty difficult conditions for people who are not a part of this, like, new gentry that they would be generating.
But do you see that, like, when you went to these types of events, would the people who were there know about this, or would they care about it, or would they just kind of will there just be they're they're just there for the free drinks or something? Like, I've done that before.
This is it's it's it's complicated and multifaceted. So, like, at the party, the first party I went to, there was discourse about it, and people were like, I don't support this, but I am here. And, like, that is sort of a microcosm of a type of behavior that exists more broadly. I I won't like, I I don't wanna say who specifically it is, but, like, there was, like, a person who is in this sort of world that has more more explicitly left politics, who was critical of praxis. And they went on a podcast and were, like, openly critical of it, and then I went to try to talk to them about it, for the story, and they were very hesitant to go on the record because they I don't understand the specifics of what happened, but, like, my understanding is that there is maybe some sort of, like, social reprimanding that had happened because the people who are left in these spaces and acknowledge it, like, understand, like, the just how dark the politics of these things can be, still because of how expensive New York has become, like, still sort of need to exist in these spaces or need money to continue their own enterprises and need these social connections. And so it becomes, like, this weird thing where people are kind of aware. But because there needs to be this dark money to flow in to, like, fund the art that's happening, it just extremely expensive real estate situations. Like, some people are willing to turn a blind eye. Aesthetically, there is this sort of, like, desire to to sort of be post woke, and so some of it is, like, aesthetically bolstered by desire to, like, seem like even if you don't agree with someone's politics, it's, like, cool to talk to them. And, like, even if, like, you find their politics to be potentially, like, very reprehensible and discriminatory. So there is, like, that level of awareness, and then the but then the permission structure just sort of, like, allows the enmeshment to occur. And then I think that there I did talk to someone about something that I had to leave out of the story because I couldn't report it all the way that I wanted to. But this person was, I guess, kind of telling me that after, like, certain incidents, praxis became, like, sort of, like, not as accepted in a lot of these spaces and became, like, something that people were wary of. And, like, but, like, at the same time, people were still going to their thing, so it's, like, unclear to me as to, like, how much they were pushed out. I know that a little bit after the story came out, I don't know if it was because of the story, because of other things related to it. Like, Dryden sort of pivoted on his Twitter away from New York. And after doing all of this work to enmesh himself deep within New York culture and enmesh praxis deep within New York culture, he pivoted away and was talking about how San Francisco is the new hub of things, and he wants to be in San Francisco a lot when he's not in the EU because it's actually, like, way cooler and more interesting. So, like, that might be a sign that, like, Praxis is no longer welcome in New York in the same way. Employees that would work for them, some of them wouldn't know, and, like, that's why I was able to talk to them is because they would come in and see this and be like, oh, god. This is, like, way weirder than I anticipated. It was, a lot of the contractors, I think, were kept in the dark. Like, my understanding, some of this is reporting and some this is rumors. Like, the contractors just had less of an idea of what was going on because they weren't in the office all the time. And then I heard a rumor that at least one employee left after my story, because of, I guess, like, them coming to understand what was going on more and it being kind of kept from them. But yeah.
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Yeah. Maybe, like, on a maybe on a slightly different thing. Like, I I was curious, like, whether you did, ask them about, like, you know, they have this thing of, like, you can you can, apply for a visa. And, you know, you have, like, whatever. I did not apply, so I don't know exactly what's the process. But, like, they have, like, interviews, and then they they decide whether to give it a visa. So was wondering, like, if you've been investigating this and, like, what does that even mean, you know, to get a visa? Because, like, if I'm, like, if I'm, like, someone whatever the land that they whatever the country that they decide to install themselves into, even if I get a practice visa that doesn't necessarily give me a visa in that country. So I I was just curious, like, what is this visa about? Is it, like, a visa that requires also the land visa, or do they want to create some kind of partnership with whatever country they are gonna, invade, colonize, to to to apply that the visa that you apply for practice also give you a visa to the country, and things like that. What what what's up with that visa, I think?
Out of curiosity, like, was the visa, like, a more recent thing, or, has that just, like, been around for a while?
I mean, I've seen it on the website, a few time ago. I don't know when they introduced it. I I I I have not applied, so I don't know if it's even I mean, like, I'm on the website now, and it says you can you can apply. You can submit an application to get your, STILL visa, whatever it is. Oh, yeah. And then it says you get, like, tax advantage and then a permanent visa without restriction. And so I was just like, how can you claim that when you don't even know what the country you're gonna be at is?
Yeah. So that that's I think some of that came out after I'd finished reporting. So, like, I didn't exactly keep up with it. But from what I did report on and, like, extrapolating that up to current moment, like, yeah, you're exactly right. They're extremely early along in the pointing stages. Like, it's unclear. I heard a rumor that they're getting some money in series b. I don't know if it's true or not, but they need more money for this to continue. And if they don't get it, like, you know, they're not that far along. It's, like, not gonna keep working, but, in all likelihood. But from, like, what I heard on their membership stuff already, like, the sort of status of being, like, a Praxis member already without this, like, formalized visa thing was, like, sort of weird. And there were people who, were sort of, like, on their member list that were, like, not actually dedicated or that interested, but, like, it sort of just come on. And, like, my understanding, the sort of, like, the thing I reported on, which, like, I think is is I would treat as a rumor more than, like, reported fact was that, like, the the list appeared to be, sort of, like, inflated. It was, like, anyone kind of who had worked for Praxis or is, like, had gone to events, like, the the bar for them getting on this list of members is pretty low. And, like, a lot of people weren't actually paying the money to be on the list, but but Praxis also needed to, like, say that there was a lot of people who were members to be able to show that to potential investors and funders. So, like, the the Visa thing sort of I don't know if you have to do you have to pay to have the the Visa? Was the was the aspect?
So I'm looking now at the website. There is no specific information whether you have to pay. It's unclear. Yeah. Maybe, like, some of that too is, like, there's something I think you need to apply first, and then they might ask you.
They that might be again, this is speculation, but that might be a sort of a part of the strategy of, like, sort of keeping things loose because, like, there were some people that were paying, and there were some people that were able to be on list, and they were, like, deemed important enough to, like, get out of paying upfront initially. Because, again, it's, like, kind of a tall order to ask people, especially, like, someone who's, like, maybe more of an artistic or creative background, to pay a lot of money upfront for this thing that doesn't even exist. Interesting. The but yeah.
The advantages include, yeah, path to citizenship in selected host country. So whatever they select, you'll get citizenship there eventually. And but also, yeah, like tax advantages, land ownership. Like, these are things that, like, those are things that I would move to a country to if I was rich. You know?
But it's also something that you cannot you cannot promise. Like, it's like like, it should. I mean, I can claim the same thing. Just join my nonexisting country, and I'm gonna give you a visa to Primavera nothing. You know? It's like tax advantage is clearly something that the government has to give, land ownership as well, path to citizenship as well, work authorization as well. Like, those are all things that you cannot just provide a visa independently of the nation states to approve this.
Yeah. This is something that was, like, top of mind for them too. I remember asking the head of research because he was telling me that they were kind of, like, at that point, sort of, like, deciding not deciding, but, like, sort of going back and forth between Italy, and North Africa. And, like, the advantage of North Africa was that to him, was that they could sort of pressure the country into giving them more tax advantages. So, like, I guess maybe that sort of rhetoric is a sign that, they're maybe leaning towards a country that has, like, a weaker national government and is, like, they can try to bend it towards their well more. And so maybe they're not as interested in Italy. But, I mean, I don't know, and I don't know if they know either. Right. Yeah. That it's interesting that he was so explicit about that.
Maybe they considered Italy because, because of Maloney or something like that. Yeah. Maybe they thought it might be a good spot.
That's that's really fun. Maybe. I think the other thing they said about Italy was, like, they didn't say Maloney explicitly, but the thing that they told me was that, it is more stable and, like, it's it's an easier sell to people to come to Italy than it is to come, and live in Morocco or even Montenegro. They have a very difficult,
thread to needle with, like, finding a place that is, like, desirable and also influenceable with their, with their money and network?
Yeah. No. It it is super weird, but, like, I guess I don't know. And, like, again, fully speculation. I don't know. But, like, maybe it's all just sort of, like, long stalling and sort of working through it as, like, they try to get the money together. Because, yeah, you do kind of have to keep up appearances because it's, like, hard to make substantial progress when you're you have $20,000,000 and you don't have, like, a lot of incoming cash flow or ways to make money, that are particularly reliable. Like, I don't my understanding is they were not really selling much. Like, they had merch, but they were giving the merch away for free. Did you get a a Praxis t shirt? Like, there's and even if they were selling it, like, I actually have a hat.
I just get a hat at the open house. You're a citizen, though. Right? No, they
you know, if I go there and they have jurisdiction, I don't I don't know if that's good for me. I don't I maybe shouldn't be hanging out in practice. But, but, yeah, like, I don't they I heard yeah. There's there's just, like, not a lot of money coming in right now, so I don't understand how they would make substantial plans forward. I assume that's hadeed architects would want, like, some sort of money, to continue with things and, like, other contractors that need more money. So it's, like, hard to break ground on 20,000,000.
Yeah. Yeah. The for the amount of, like, STEM people they have, supposedly, I would think on their team, the math is not working out very well so far. I think it's interesting because if you look because if you go to their website, there is this, like, big, beautiful, you know, rendering of very green, like, luscious, like, beachfront, city with, like, a bunch of almost they look like the Barcelona super blocks kinda spread out in this, like, nice looking pattern. And I tried just now kind of, like, applying to the citizenship. And it's interesting. I mean, they're asking for a lot of information about about me. And also they have a section of list any Praxis members you know personally, and, like, your affiliations with any organizations. And if I opened up the affiliated organizations, like, I just accidentally did. It includes the Thiel Fellowship, Y Combinator, Urbit, OpenAI, Anduril, any Elon Musk company, Emergent Ventures. I don't know what's a couple of these other ones, like VC funds. But, I mean, yeah, I feel like they're kind of they're giving away the game a little bit of the types of people they want that they expect would be interested in this and would want to come. And these are also, you know, groups and organizations with founders who are also, like, associated with the far right. Anyway, that was I was I accidentally clicked on it and then opened a bot. Yeah. Yeah. Very much so.
Yeah. And you said did you say these are affiliated companies? Or, like, how are they Yeah. Like, Urbit is Curtis Yarvin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sorry. Did Praxis call them, like, affiliate companies? Or, like, what did how did Praxis describe these companies as? No. It's just the question is just, are you affiliated with any of the following organizations?
And
okay. Yeah. I mean, I think, to me, from, like, just what I know, like, that that reads, like, speculation or that reads, sorry, like, a wish list of, like, aspirational desires for, like, what they want to be, like, affiliated with more so than, what they kind of actually are affiliated with. Like, there is some crossover. Like, I don't wanna say that they're complete. Teal does indirectly, like, have money via Pronomos and via Tyler Cowen, whose interest in this is, like, really interesting. And I think it's, like, really interesting that he never commented, because he is someone that presents himself, I think, as more of, like, a sort of soft center left liberal person, with some libertarian tendencies who ostensibly would not wanna be tied to, like, a far right project. But yeah. No. They there is, like, a sort of, like, aspirationalness of, like and that was, like, sort of a big thing that undergirds the company. Like, Dryden, according to my sources, used the company to try to, like, position himself in a specific social way, and, like, establish himself within proximity to cultural figures. You know, he went and tried to work with people adjacent to Kanye West, or in those sorts of, like, cultural spaces. He also is, like, really fascinated and, like, really, really looked up to Elon Musk. And so it tracks that he would want to be around people who, like, have worked at Elon Musk companies or, like, worked for those kinds of things. Yeah. But, again, if, like, you work at these companies and you're, like, kind of doing alright, like, why would you wanna take a chance on this company that is, has yet to do anything and, like, no clear path to it? But yeah. And, again, like, as Elon becomes, like, more openly, like, far right and as, like, Peter Thiel has, like, kind of made his, like, politics explicitly clear, it sort of signals, like, what the game is and, like, what what they're trying to do and what they're interested in.
Yeah. To me, it seems like it's a it's a very good example of, like, fake it till you make it. Meaning, it's like it's like there is hardly anything, and, it's like saying that things until attracting people at the beginning that think that there might be something and then using those people to attract more people. It's just, like, associating yourself with company that don't even know about you. It's just like it's like it's, there there seems to be very little substance. I mean, like, even even the website is, like, is completely empty of anything except claims. There's just, like, claims that have absolute that are completely unsubstantiated.
But I think this is, like, taking the the the startup playbook of, like, Silicon Valley, you know,
what is it, move fast and break things type of thing? I think that that's all completely accurate. There is, like, a story. I have a a sort of sliver of it in the story, but it's, like, they spent a lot of money to go to con. And part of why they were going to con is, like, so that they could hobnob with rich people. And they tried to throw this party, which they kind of, like, didn't even get into their own sort of party that they were funding. But, like, they tried to throw this party to attract rich people to sort of seem like they were part of this milieu, which so that they could establish themselves and, like, try to get people interested in this kind of thing, which on one hand is, like it's it's bizarre multiple levels because, like, they're trying to establish in this themselves in this highbrow milieu and, like, sort of, like, in this goofy way that, like, screams of, like, sort of, like, faking it till you make it and sort of, like, inauthenticity. But at the same time, Dryden is of, like, relative, pedigree if, like, if you care about that kind of thing. His family is, like, fairly wealthy both from, like, what they literally had. He grew up in, like, a very expensive home. And then I, from my reporting too, it kind of looked like he I didn't report it all the way out. We didn't, like, verify it, so I'm not gonna say specifically. But it appears as though he is also, like, of a family, like, of a large sort of fortune, that goes back generations that has made substantial amounts of money. So he is, like, literally of this, like, sort of rich, pedigreed world, but then, like, even despite that, I guess, like, there was, like, this desire to, like, still affect that you were in this space and, like, doing it in these, like, goofy, ham fisted ways that didn't clearly, like, return anything to them. And so it seems goofy, and it seems like it's not worth taking them super seriously because, like, it is not, this, like, serious enterprise that will probably, like, amount to things. I guess it like, the jury's still out on whether or not that'd be the case, whether they'll fail or succeed. But even if they fail, like, it's also really useful to see them not just as, like, a city building startup, but as this expression of these tendencies within Silicon Valley and as these an expression of these founders sort of, like, telling us what they actually think about the world. We kind of understand it more so with Elon Musk every time he tweets something. We kind of understand it with Peter Thiel through the really good reporting that's been done on him by people like Max Max Shafkin, his biographer, and, like, other people. But I think it's some of them still like to, quote, unquote, like, hide their power level and not tell us the full extent of what they think. But, like, in funding these kinds of things, in funding someone that we know now is, like, reading these kinds of books, is engaged in these sort of, like, far right projects, someone who people around him have said he is racist. Like, in them being okay with that, they're letting us know what is, like, actually going on in Silicon Valley in the spaces that, like, I can't enter or, like, other people can't enter, but, like, where conversations are being had. And it, like, lets us know that, like, these people who are the masters of the universe, in, like, a financial sense and want to, like, control more and more of the world, like, kind of think pretty dark things and sort of don't think very much of the rest of the population, in a in a pretty scary way.
Yeah. Maybe to try and give, we say, benefit of the doubt or to try to find a maybe slightly more positive thread, to pull on here. Is there like, did you find anyone who was in there who was, like, maybe, like, could you garner any kind of, like, relative ideas as to why maybe some of the the non racist people maybe, were interested in in projects like this?
Yeah. I think that some people came to it because they were genuinely interested in doing something that, was, like, new and refreshing and had an impact on the world. Like, there, I think, was this desire to I don't know if, like, network states are the answer. It seems like they're not, but, like, there are problems with the nation states. And, like, they're as, like, they're currently construed, like, most sort of global powers have extremely large body counts, you know, whether it's, like, authoritarian left like the USSR, or it's just, like, the sort of, like, libertarian, quasi oligarchy democracy thing like The United States. Like, they're all of these countries have large large body counts that they've could, like, collected in the name of patriotism and nationalism, and that is a problem. And, like, maybe the way out of that is, like, something that's not a nation state. There are also nation states that have not done these kinds of, like, things, so I don't I don't know. But, like, I think that they saw a potential to, like, do something that was interesting and different, and maybe it wasn't going to work. Maybe it was going to be bad, but I think that their initial when they came there, they didn't think it was going to be bad in, like, a racist far right way. They just thought maybe this is, like, I don't know, flawed or failed, but, like, in a way that would, like, only harm the company. It wouldn't be bad on, like, an external level. And so, yeah, I think that's, like, why they were there to kind of, like, put words in their mouth without, like, fully understanding the market conditions. Yeah. That that is one thing that I find
interesting that like, it is it is a critique that I ultimately agree with as far as, like, the issues with the nation states and it being completely, I mean, just failing at answering society's biggest problems and the ones that feel, like, need to be answered sooner than later. It is like and that that that critique also happens on the far right, but it happens in a way that, you know, they think that the state is, you know, preventing the progress of technology and allowing you to to be ultimately free and, like, whatever else. So it is it is like a difficult but it's, like, ultimately, just like a very the the sort of I would say the solutions that they bring forth are more about leaning into almost, like, the worst aspects of the nation state, possible as, like, the answer. Which is why I think the reason why, like, I think we find the need to create the concept of a coordination, which we, have been, sort of preaching about on the podcast, is to provide this, like, alternative space for people who also feel, like, completely let down and disillusioned by nation states to find something else that goes into a more, progressive direction and ultimately, I think, much more likely to answer the questions that in in a way that they would like it to be answered than it is sort of like a VC backed charter city.
Yeah. Totally. Like, I don't know. There's I think that there's, like, a reason that, like, in these sort of network state conceptions, whether it be something, you know, with, like, this, like, thinly veiled, like, far right project that, like, Praxis is doing or, like, the by, like, relative comparison, innocuous version that, like, Balazsgi is interested in. Like, for the most part, they're not, like, trading in the language of, like, liberation or equality or even just, like, basic things as, like, mitigating, I don't know, just, like, suffering on some level. Like, they're very interested almost in, like, maybe maybe the most progressive version I've come across is, like, creating, like, an oligopoly that extends to, like, the upper middle classes. And, like, maybe it's just like a really it's like a wider level of, like, prosperity for, like, a a larger amount of elite people. But, yeah, it doesn't they they they're not, like, particularly interested in, like, building, like, a vision of a future that is better for, like, all different types of people. And you can kind of also see it. This is, like, kind of reductive and cheap, but it's just, like, obvious. Like, San Francisco, like, is a weird state. It's like they love to talk about how it's because of, like, the weird, like, mayor and, like, the leadership and, like, I I'm not going to defend I I don't have particularly strong feelings about, like, the London breed or, like, the actual politics of, like, San Francisco, but it also has, like, all happened under their purview. And, like, it has happened through them shaping politics and, like, and it has happened, yeah, through, like, their shaping of the city. And, like, if there are other cities in the country where people make large amounts of money and don't they don't look like San Francisco. They haven't produced, like, these weird levels of inequality. They haven't produced this weird, like, cultural tension. Like, there there's lots of unhealthy things happening across the country, but San Francisco is, like, this extremely, almost unique outlier, and, like, it's dominated by tech. And to, like, say that there's not a link between these two things feels just, like, extremely naive. And that's, like, when they don't fully, explicitly control everything. Like, I don't I'm not excited about a world that is, like, completely controlled by these people. That doesn't seem preferable, but, you know, I don't know. Maybe they'll prove me wrong. Yeah. Did you have anything to add, Prive?
No. No. I think, I think, generally, I think it's interesting because there is, like, you know, it's like, of course, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be surrounded with people that are aligned in terms of value, and there's lots of people that are doing this. The distinction, I think, is when by doing that, you're also trying to disconnect from the others. Right? And I think that's the distinction when you have, like there's a lot of, more, like, common based, you know, attempt at actually doing similar things of, like, let's all live together in an area and let's grow our own garden and blah blah blah. Let's be autonomous as much as we can. But, it's and it's it's similar in many ways with the exception that, the goal is not to eliminate redistribution and, disconnect from how the state is actually trying to govern. Whereas I feel like the distinction with those type of, communities that want to become want to be surrounded by aligned people, is that when it is about highly libertarian people, there is a disconnect that come. Like, it it becomes this kind of exit, this desire towards exit as opposed to desire towards experimentation within an existing domain. And and I think that's where it becomes slightly problematic, unless unless you actually figure out, you know, the proper relationship with the state and all these things. And then, like like, I don't think charter city are necessarily bad. I think that when the reason why you create the Charter City is because you don't wanna pay taxes and
and you you just do not support any type of redistribution outside of your own community, then that becomes a problem. Yeah. I agree. That that totally makes sense. That was, like, a a good I don't correct me if I'm, like, misunderstanding what you're saying, but, like, at one part, you did you almost, like, compare them to, like, communes?
Or am I is that, like, just me? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think there is there is a lot of desire of, people finding a strong alignment and deciding to live close to each other and creating this, like, and stuff like that. And this is not bad as such. I think it's it's quite, understandable why you want to be surrounded with people to work together towards a particular societal vision. And so I I don't think that is the thing to be, criticized, but it's more like, what is the reason that you want to do that and how do you relate with the outside ecosystem?
Josh Chodorow, the artist, made, like, what I thought was, like, a good observation. And that, like, kind of at that point, like, what you're saying basically, like, communes, like, aren't necessarily bad, and these things aren't, like, bad enterprises. But, like, if you are interested in, like, structural change and making people's lives better and, like, being an ethical person, like, your solution has to go beyond just, like, making the world good for you and your friends. And maybe that's intractable. Maybe it's, like, impossible to do that. And, like, in that way, caught means are certainly more innocuous than, like, a network state, which, like, doesn't it creates, like, an isolated hyper version of, like, what we already have. It doesn't, like, opt out in the way that caught means do. For as much as they use the language of exit, it's almost like it's like entering into just, like, a sped up version of this. Like, there is, like, an acceleration as aspect to it, consciously or not.
Yeah. One of my sort of gut reactions or, like, thinking about this is perhaps the with, like, increasing housing prices and land prices, perhaps the idea of, like, kind of casually starting a commune is, like, out of reach for a lot of people, difficult to imagine because of the amount of investments you have to make in the first place. So then you can't so the only way you can imagine something like that is if you have already, like, big backers who can buy who can buy the land, who can buy, the construction that you need for your commune. And that's why people, like, they don't they don't see themselves being able to buy land and start a commune. They have to join a company that's going to do that for them because all this stuff is kinda complicated and expensive.
Maybe that's an aspect of it. I don't know. Just thought of that. Yeah. No. It is like VCs all the way down. Like, I think that's that's that makes sense. And then it's also, like to to what we, like, talked about earlier, that's also why, like, the sort of VC tech people were able to sort of gain a hold in these downtown cultural spaces. Like, I don't think this would have happened ten or twenty years ago. There would have been, like, a push to, like, keep these spaces, like, sheer is not right, but, like, a little bit like, at the very least, it would have been, like, a a little bit more veiled. I could be wrong, but my my understanding of, like, the CIA money that was, like, flowing into into, like, beatniks and and other types of art was, like, a little bit more it was like an open secret, but, like, there was, like, a sort of weird dance that happened with it. Whereas, like, now, like, it's not a secret. Everyone that's there kind of talks about it. They'll talk I'm not that ingratiated in these spaces, and I hear about them quite regularly. It's just like and I do think, yeah, it is a material reality of, like, how everything is, like, so expensive. It's like how this is the situation has been produced.
Is we're coming up on the hour. I don't know if there's any, like, last questions you wanted to to ask Ali?
Yeah. Maybe, like, given this, given this little experience that you had, like, do you feel that the people, the people that are not necessarily acquainted with, with all those discourse and stuff? Like, if you if you were to just go there without even knowing where you are going, just like you are invited at a party, is it something that, like, transpires nonetheless, or is it more like it does it does it feel like it's actually a bunch of cool kids, Or is it like some kind of cool kids that are being, like, somehow I I I wouldn't say, like, brainwashed, but, like, manipulated or corrupted towards specific belief systems?
I don't know. From the the one main party that I was at, like, a little bit, but I couldn't tell if that was because, like, I knew the context going in. I've kind of heard from talking to different people who just, like, who were around these kinds of things that there was, like, this, like, sort of energy, but I don't know if that's, like, post rationalizing and people, like, coming to understand. And, like, maybe it's just, like, inextricable because, like, there is, like, a sort of rough understanding of things that are going on. So, like, maybe it's just, like, kind of in the water, and it gets, like, passed around, by word-of-mouth and, like, by this, like there's this, like, a sort of ambient sense of something being off because enough people know about it even if everyone doesn't. I'm I'm truly not sure.
I think that But but do you feel that overall it was, like, for for for the people organizing those parties, was it, like do you feel that overall it was successful? As in, like, whatever was the reason? Like, did they actually succeed in their mission, or was it just, like, let's waste some money to invite people, but there is not an actual positive return on investment?
I think that we'll see I think that I'm leaning towards no, and I think that the signal for that is Dryden's pivot towards San Francisco and and him openly disparaging New York. I think that if he were having more success in New York, he wouldn't have done that. I think that even if he genuinely became more interested in San Francisco, he wouldn't, be talking shit on New York in that way. If he felt like things had worked in a way that was advantageous for him in practice, he wouldn't have burned that bridge. I think. I don't yeah. That's, like, that's my sense of it. But, yeah, the party he was at too was, like, also weirdly, sparsely attended. I think that might have been a logistical issue. I heard a rumor that it's because the invite emails went to spam. But, yes, it seems like things weren't working at the out for them in the way that they kind of wanted it to. And, like, it's my understanding that maybe the scene's attention is being, like, turned away towards other things that are funded by other, like, right wing VCs, but are not via Praxis. There's, like, other spaces that are becoming popular as well downtown.
Interesting. I think now is a good time to to maybe end it. Thanks so much, Ali, for taking your time and sharing with us your story of going to this practice party for us so that we didn't have to go. Glad you got to get a hat out of it.
Yeah. Thank you. It was good. It was my pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, it was it was fun. You know, the rappers are good. There was some indie sleaze that I missed, but it was
the bookers did a really good job. I would have to give them credit. I have no criticism with the booking. Yeah. I guess when you have Teal money, you can you can get some of the best bookers and the best, rappers around. Cool. Is there, any last, things you want to plug maybe to the audience before we go?
Yeah. My Twitter is just my name, twitter.com slash, ali brieland, no spaces, no dots, a l I b r e l a n d. I'm also on threads and blue sky under the same handle. And, yeah, you can read Mother Jones. We're nonprofit, so we're always taking donations if you're inclined. If you are a wealthy, not far right, VC, you know, that's that's maybe an option for you. Yeah. I heard the Mother Jones parties are way cooler than the Praxis ones. You know, they're not, honestly. We don't we normally even have parties, but it's mostly just journalists kinda sitting around, you know, talking about how journalism is a really dire industry.
Fair. Right. Thanks so much. I highly encourage people to check out, Ali's work. He's also done a lot of really nice reporting in, on crypto as well. I'll link, some of those pieces in the show notes.
But, yeah, thanks so much. See you. Yeah. Thank you. I I appreciate it. Thank
you, Ale.