Tokens: The Future of Money in the Age of the Platform (gang gang mmm ice cream so good)
Tokens have increasingly more popular beyond just in the crypto world *gang gang mmm ice cream so good*. Tokens are not new, but how they have been used and their proliferation have exploded with the rise of digital platforms. I spoke to Rachel O'Dwyer, writer and a lecturer in Digital Cultures in the National College of Art and Design in Dublin and author of Tokens: The Future of Money in the Age of the Platform. I gave a recommendation of the book because I think it pairs well ...
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Transcript
All right. Hello, everyone. You are listening to the Blockchain Socials podcast. I'm Josh, and I am here with a fellow author of this past year. Her name is Rachel O'Dwyer. She is a writer and lecturer in digital cultures in the National College of Arts and Design in Dublin and author of her new book, Tokens. Hi, Rachel. How are you doing? Welcome to the show.
Not too bad. Thanks really for having me on, Josh. Yeah. So,
I thought it'd be interesting not only to have this conversation as a way to, you know, explore some of the ideas in your book around tokens and money and crypto and how all those things kind of intersect and interrelate. But also, I think it would be interesting we can have a bit of a conversation since both of our books I feel like there's a lot of there are a lot of things that that aligned that were pretty interesting when I was going through it, that I really enjoyed. And then it could be a pretty fruitful, you know, way for us to kind of like exchange and and converse our ideas together and see what comes out of it.
Absolutely.
Yeah. But so maybe I will actually allow you to maybe give you some space to introduce yourself a little bit more since you've been doing a lot of work around the idea of tokens and money as part of your research. So, yeah, so maybe I'll give you give you that that space so you can, like, introduce it, and then we can talk about tokens.
Sure. You mean, like, talk a little bit about where I came from,
like, background? Yeah. Yeah. What what brought you tokens? I mean
yeah. Well, I think I've a bit of a strange background because I actually went to art college, first of all, studied fine art with a focus in digital media. So I was sort of working, making art with technology, but probably wasn't very good at it, I guess. And I think, like towards the end of my degree realized I was a little bit more interested in some of the ideas than actually making the art myself. Really. And actually that was that was a really good realization for me to sort of realize I'm actually more interested in what, like, some of the ideas these artworks provoke than actually making the art myself. So sort of took a took a a turn then into academia and working more in science and technology studies and sort of thinking about what are, like, some of the social and political implication of new media. And so kind of circuitously went into then doing a PhD in an engineering department, but sort of coming from this, you know, interdisciplinary, like, art background. And so so I was doing a PhD then in sort of the political economy of mobile networks and sort of thinking about, like, who owned radio waves actually was sort of the the the area I was working in. And towards the end of my PhD, I came across M Pesa, which is this, you know, huge, mobile payment system in the global side where In Kenya. I suppose, M Pesa yeah. In Kenya, I guess. But but but it kind of evolved, I guess, from this very informal practice that that emerged in a number of places where people were using phone credits Right. Basically as a de facto currency. So, actually, even before M Pesa, it was that, you know, in in Zimbabwe, in a number of places sort of where where people were being hit by hyperinflation, phone credit emerged as this means of of of paying kind of in the absence of easy ways of transferring cash, easy ways of sending money home, easy ways of of domestic and foreign remittances. So I was sort of really fascinated by this. So people were using phone credit not to top up their phones and call one another, but were using it as this informal way of actually paying each other. So texting phone top up codes to each other as a means of payment. And eventually the top up code would be used, you know, to top up the phone. But in the meantime, it was being texted as a means of payment. And so here was this form of money that was being issued by a mobile network operator and was riding the rails of an information and communication technology. And it just sort of blew my mind because it, I suppose, made me, you know, think about here was a form of money that was being issued, not by a bank, but by a network operator. Here was a form of money that was being, you know, guaranteed in some ways by, you know, radio, radio waves, radio spectrum. And it just made me completely rethink what money was. And it made me realize that, you know, money was to all effects as well. A technology, a technology that was being shaped by people, shaped by platforms, and could be shaped otherwise. And this was also around the time that things like Bitcoin as well were were gaining traction. It was around the time of the financial crash. So there was sort of a broader conversation as well at that time about what money was and what money could be. So a lot of the conversations I was having or things I was thinking about, about technology, the sort of future of technology sort of shifted into money at that time. And so for the last, I guess, twelve, I don't know how long it is now, maybe twelve years, I've been thinking a lot about money as media and money as a technology and tokens is sort of the result of that. But, you know, I still don't really know what money is to be honest. And I I mean, that's why it's so fascinating to me, really, you know, because I think a bit like art, it's very hard to pin down.
Yeah. I it it I mean, I mean, I think even most or at least many money kind of researchers don't really have, like, a clear or, like, strict definition of money, I find. And, I mean, I think this is just seen in like the, how many different schools of like monetary theory there are and how like wildly different their ideas around money are and like what it should be and what it ought to do. It varies a lot. And so when you were talking about, M Pesa, like it made me think it made me imagine that maybe in like an alternative world where, you know, how Bitcoin people always talk about Bitcoin being backed by energy or being backed by whatever. Like I would love to see a world where someone is like, I don't know, a phone credit maximalist. And they're like, no, it's backed by radio waves, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Would that I mean, I guess that's what really,
excited me when I first came to it. As you say, like, Bitcoiners are often, you know, subscribed to that really particular theory of money, like metallism, where they believe money is valuable because it's underpinned by something that has intrinsic value like gold. Whereas other people believe money is valuable because it's underpinned by trust or by cooperation. And, you know, because I was doing this PhD about, like, how did how did radio waves, which are basically just invisible light or invisible color that we can't see Mhmm. You know, how did they become valuable? How did they become property? And then suddenly, here was this money, basically, that was, you know, being issued on the value of these radio waves. Mhmm. And so it kinda, you know, really blew my mind. Yeah. And, weirdly enough, I suppose that that those radio waves are called ether. And so I also right before Ethereum,
you know, you also had this money that was running on ether. Yeah. Yeah. I recently read your your piece on on ether, which is really interesting. Leo, I'll I'll link it. But, so maybe, like, as a as a question to start off, you said, you know, maybe we don't know much what money is, but maybe we can begin to try to define what is a token or at least describe what is a token. Because I know that's also a very difficult thing to
Yeah. Yeah. I mean and I again, I feel like people have very radically different ideas of what tokens are. So we were you were saying that you you'd just been hanging out with Brett Scott at MoneyLab just before we started recording. You know? And I know, like, when I've spoken in the past with Brett about tokens and, you know, he's hugely sort of knowledgeable about this, that he's a bit like, no, no, no, no. You know, you wouldn't probably agree with my understanding of what a token is. But for me, like tokens are they're sort of more and less than money. So they're, they're less than money where, because where money, at least in theory is supposed to be fungible in that you, you know, you are supposed to be able to use euros to buy just about anything that is for sale. Tokens tend to come with strings attached about who can use them and what they can be used for. So the example I use a lot in the book is Amazon pays mechanical Turk workers in outside of The US and more recently outside of India. So in most parts of the world, Amazon pays mechanical Turk workers in Amazon gift card balances that can only be redeemed on the Amazon store and only by the the worker. So these are, you know, very particular sorts of strings or terms and conditions that are attached
to the token. And that that's kind of like a, like a script.
It's a script. They craft. Historically, those tokens were had a name and it was script. So they were used in the depression, I think, to pay workers, who were working for example, like, in mines or in, in, I think, where else do you, can you think of other examples? I mean I know they were used by Yeah. Whatever kind of, like, industrial usually, they would make, like Yeah. Basically, create a a little town
where they would attract a bunch of workers to work in, and then they would have their own corporate stores where, you know, they they only took the whatever the, you know, insert evil billionaire that owns the company dollars here, you
know? Exactly. So it's like you're kind of being doubly screwed because you're screwed obviously when you're being paid a wage. That's, you know, in the sort of classic Marxist term is obviously less than what it costs to produce whatever you're you're making. And then you're being screwed when you cash it out as well because the boss gets to decide, you know, how much your your your money is actually worth in their in their special store. And scrip tokens were outlawed in the 1800s by these sort of truckas they were called. But, by some weird kind of sleight of hand, then they were legalized again in the 1980s to allow for electronic cash transfers. And I don't know exactly how that works, but, yeah, something to do with the sort of making it legal for employers to pay you electronically also created some sort of a space for script. For like Yeah. I think it would be really interesting to look at that a little bit more because I have to be honest, I didn't look at it in great detail. I just know that that created some sort of a loophole where certain forms of script are possible. I know in Ireland, it's really, really common as well to pay bonuses and things in these, like, one for all gift cards at Christmas. So people will get, you know, like, presents, I guess, from their boss in gift vouchers. But, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm kinda in the weeds here, but, I would I guess I was talking about, like, how tokens are so no less than money in those ways cause they have all these strings, you know, attached that, like, constrain what you can do. But I also feel like they're kind of more than money in other ways that we've seen particularly with a lot of online tokens because they're they're sort of used to pay, but they're also often have these other sorts of communicative and social functions where they're used to brag and, like, troll and, joke and communicate. So, like, Dogecoin is a means of exchange, but, you know, historically, as well as Sarah Young writes about really well, They were used, you know, at least in the early days of the Internet to, like, hat tip people for funny content or, you know, Venmo is used to obviously pay people in The US, but it's also maybe sort of used to, like, show off. You know, they're to sort of conspicuously sort of show off or I was really obsessed with this sort of moment in the summer where this, streamer on TikTok, Pinky Doll, became sort of famous outside of TikTok for being paid in virtual gifts to pretend to be a a non playable Ah, I've been in The UK. PCs. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, yum, yum, ice cream, so good. You know? And Yeah. And she was she was being paid, you know, not in money to repeat these phrases verbatim, but in, like, virtual ice creams or virtual cowboy hats. And Mhmm. Why why did people wanna pay her in virtual roses or ice creams and not money? It seemed like there was something about those tokens that were felt more intimate or more social than Mhmm. A transactional exchange. So tokens are yeah. They're also more than money. They're more easy to sort of color or to socialize, I think, than money. They're more like a gift maybe. So Mhmm. Yeah. That's why I find them really fascinating. You know, they they encode not just value, but all sorts of values as well. Yeah. I kind of think of,
I used maybe, like, the phrase, like, a a token of my gratitude and, like, you give, like, a gift. Yeah. Like, I sometimes Yes. Lovely. Like, connected to that. Yeah. There is, like, a definitely I think with, you know, the expansion of digital platforms and payments, there has been now this, like, added layer of sociality, I guess, with sending of of even just money, like Venmo money. And then, I don't know. We would always, I I mean, whenever I lived in The US, you know, we would have, like, emojis. We just use emojis that connected with the payments that we're sending or something or, like, send a joke that is connected with that payments to my friend that then, like, there's now a so but there's also a bit it is a bit strange, like, when I think about it, like, why is there a social feed for, like, payments happening? And why do I know that, like, you know, my friend from high school is paying someone else and, like, you know, there's like a green plant emoji. Like, so I know that they're buying weed or something like Venmo. I think it's obvious. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, I definitely, I think, I think I think Brett's use of, like, kinda like layer two money or layer three money, which is, like, kind of, is alluding to, like, the amount of layers that are happening between, like, the actual money system or, like, the base money system, however you want this foundational, whatever word you wanna put in there. And now there is, like, this so many intermediaries in between that now have added attachments to your to your money and to your transaction, which Yeah. Makes it more token like. So you can, yeah. And then I think with the yeah. Sending sending sending a little ice cream, but it but it still costs, you know, it's probably like, I don't know, whatever, like $10 to send a little ice cream emoji. So it is like it's a turning there's so many layers of of of weird irony and, like, I don't know, and and literal technological, like, intermediaries between that.
Yeah. I mean, even I think Bill Mauer, who's an anthropologist of money, sort of explains that really well as well. And that he sort of talks about the publicly mandated payments system, you know, which is your federal reserve in the state or your central bank. And so, obviously, that's you know, maybe in in Brett's analogy, that's your sort of base one layer. And then, obviously, you've got these sorts of other, intermediaries who who are sort of sitting on top or riding the rails of that publicly mandated infrastructure. So PayPal, for example, sort of an intermediary that's sitting on top of the public, Lee mandated kind of cash system and sort of acting as a, you know, acting as an intermediary, acting as a clearing house for that or, you know, an automatic kind of settlement system, for for for the kind of sludgy clearing house. So if you're sending money to somebody, you know, you have that sort of frictionless sense of that money clearing instantly, where underneath it's it's sort of moving through a kind of a sludgier public system. But I think, yeah, it's really sort of interesting to sort of think how these sort of platforms, you know, many of whom aren't even officially banks or don't even officially sort of have financial licenses or kind of sitting wedged on top of them, these sort of public infrastructures. How they kinda stacked on top of each other.
Mhmm. Yeah. So one of the things that also in the book that I found was interesting was that you also kinda looked into the historical, kind of trajectory of of what we can broadly call tokens or describe as tokens. So you talk about that this is not a new phenomenon, and this has always existed alongside the the real economy, quote, unquote. Could you provide maybe some of a like, some more historical context, for this? Like, what would be, like, a an ancient token? I think you kind of mentioned throughout the book.
Yeah. I I mean, I just find the whole history of tokens so fascinating. And there's just so many examples, as you say, that, like, kind of have always ghosted the, quote, unquote, like, real economy. What I found really interesting was that this this really long history of tokens that have been earmarked for the, I suppose, for want a better word, they're like poor. So, obviously, today, there's, you know, a range of of sort of benefits or relief tokens like SNAP benefits, for example, in The US. But historically, there were sort of alms or relief tokens that were, designed for the poor. And they were designed, I suppose, to turn sort of proper money or cash, which was seen as kind of like, a dangerous form of relief into some sort of special token for the poor. You know, an exchange media, like, not only with sort of value, but with some kind of values attached to it. So the idea was that the poor were seen as somehow, you know, inept or not able to, spend money wisely. And so these sort of charitable institutions had to insert restrictions into the money to sort of teach them teach them how to spend wisely. So, alms, for example, in in sort of medieval Europe could only be exchanged for, weirdly wine wine and bread and charcoal. Do you know? And if you were if you were in kind of possession of an am as well, it sort of marked you out as being one of the deserving poor. Do you know? So even if you had the token, that sort of meant you were worthy of it. And then, Viviana Zelitzer, who's an anthropologist of money, looks at how charitable institutions in the nineteenth and, I think, the eighteenth and the twentieth centuries worked to, you know, earmark or transform cash into special tokens that came with all of these sorts of strings attached to them about, you know, what the poor could do. In Ireland in the nineteen eighties, we had these sort of butter vouchers that came with, like social benefit relief payments and ostensibly they were exchangeable for butter. But what I found really funny or interesting when I was doing research for the book was that people will always tell you all the things that you could buy besides butter for butter vouchers. So all the shops that would exchange are for, like, cigarettes and alcohol and also things like beans and cheese and, you know, whatever else. And so it's really interesting to sort of see how, yeah, there were strings attached and there was all sorts of morals attached and kind of to the token in the past, but also, people had kind of workarounds or ways of getting around the conditions. I guess what we're seeing today is increasingly those sorts of values or morals are hard coded into the conditions. So snap benefits are food stamps in The States today are, you know, common electronic card. And, you know, it's just physically impossible to buy, hygiene products or hot food Yeah. Or alcohol or cigarettes, you know, with with a a benefits card. So, you know, what kinds of scripts or what kinds of values are being written or programmed into into these sorts of tokens today? And, you know, what is the kind of broader history of some of these? So, yeah, I looked at sort of things like relief tokens, but also, you know, there's a long history of identity tokens as well from, like, Victorian, like, orphan tokens, in orphanages right up to experiments by, you know, the cyberpunk communities in the nineteen nineties where, they're, you know, trying to find different ways of creating sort of reputational tokens or reputational currencies that sort of anticipate some of the discussions, you know, that are even happening today around like soul band tokens. So, you know, I just find it really, really fascinating to sort of look at recent history, whether it's the nineteen nineties, or look at, like, ancient history, whether it's, like, tokenized grain in Mesopotamia and sort of see, like, what are the what are the kind of correlations between what was happening thousands of years ago and what's happening today with with value and with exchange media.
And,
yeah, and I just I'd never get bored. I don't know. I just think, oh, interesting.
I remember you also had an example. I believe it was, like like, even going farther back in history where you put a token for it was, like, an ancient Greek. Was it ancient Greek? Like, kind of a a machine that you kinda that's kinda what you're talking about. The allotment. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's hugely, like, popular with, actually, a lot of, like, a lot of people who are sort of interested in any sort of blockchain, voting, anything that sort of was looking to kinda institute smart contracts for for voting processes often invoked the Greek Agora. So, there was this sort of process that used tokens for, what was called sortition. Mhmm. So it was where they used it basically to to select people for jury duty, I think, for want of a better word. And I can't I find the the whole process really hard to explain. It kinda the machine looks a bit like the one that Fred Flintstone clocks in and out of. Like, it's really funny to look at because it's kinda like this stone you know, it looks very like if you've ever punched in and out for work, it looks very much like one of those sort of machines and that there's this stone sort of tablet thing with, like, slots in the front. And, people would show up basically on the day of, that, you know, you were you were voting on something, and, you had tokens and somehow you inserted them and it would select people for jury duty based on that. And then your token also was sort of used to pay you. So you'd redeem the token. You know, if you got selected Mhmm. That token would also just sort of pay you at the end of the day, if you know what I mean, for your work. But the process was designed to be, transparent and fair. So they had these little black and white balls and, yeah, I'd have to go back and look. I can't remember. Whatever way it worked, you know, the ball sort of dropped down and, you know, if your ball is black, you're in you're, you know, you you're you're gonna be in the jury. And if it's white, you're you get off and you're not in the jury kinda thing. But, again, I think, a lot of some of the early kind of DAO organizations, you know, use the Agora or use the term agoric, you know, to describe what they were doing because of this sort of element of, you know, transparent democracy. And, yes, I think, again, you know, I mentioned Bill Maurer earlier wrote a really, really interesting paper quite early on, sort of looking at the the Greek agora and looking at the sort of understanding of democracy that was actually in play based on kind of writings by Aristotle and others at that time. And sort of arguing at actually the understanding of democracy and the demos that was in play at that time. It's very, very different from the understanding of democracy that you actually see in some of those sort of blockchain Mhmm. Communities. So where actually, you know, the the sort of view of democracy that you had in the Greek Agora was sort of very much about, the individual standing in for the whole and trying to sort of anticipate the needs of their community and sort of speak for their community. In contrast, quite a lot of those sort of blockchain communities were sort of looking at democracy as being kind of a competition of individual interests. So it's very much about, you know, me, as an individual, in a sort of competitive market, you know, and of voting with my money. And, and in some ways, those visions of democracy are are are radically different and, you know, couldn't be more different.
Yeah. I feel like that's that that could even be applied to just democracy in general today, perhaps, that we do view it as, like, a very individualistic kind of
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And there are I think it is it Anthony Downes? There's a number of books sort of in the early twentieth century that sort of trace this shift in our understanding of democracy. You know? And I suppose it follows along with sort of shifts in politics generally towards a sort of a a liberal or a neoliberal sort of order where, you know, justice, I suppose, politics and in general has sort of moved and economics has moved towards a sort of more, like, self interested. You know, there's no such thing as society, only individual men and women. And similarly, our our understanding of democracy has also shifted towards this idea of, like, a competition of individual interests. Right. And in some ways, that's quite, like, politically devoid. And I think you really see that actually in some of the politics and the early politics of the cypherpunk and the extroprion lists. You know, the communities that that were, exploring some of the ideas that would later become Bitcoin, their sort of vision of what politics was or could be was in some ways it was quite shallow and it seemed to be based very much on this idea of politics as competing interests, politics almost without people. I don't know what you think. Am I being a bit harsh?
I mean, I think yeah. It's I mean, generally, I think this the way of looking at voting and and people, in in democracy. I feel like this is like a how the neoliberal subject perceives democracy as, like, I need to best how can I best, put forth my interest within the, the market of ideas and sell people on the market of ideas to buy my, to my, to buy my idea, to buy my, you know, the things that I that I that I want? And I think that I mean, generally, libertarianism I see as, like, a kind of taking neoliberalism to its, like, to its end, like, as far as you can go in many ways. So I think it's just kind of like that in a more accelerated form, perhaps. I think Yeah. I I don't know too much, actually, about how generally, cyberpunks, like, viewed democracy before. Besides that, they generally use a kind of, like, market frame for understanding everything, which is Yeah. I feel the case today, how many people see it anyways. Like, you kind of you Yeah. But so, like, with so with the idea of tokens, kinda like one of the things that I like to or the way that I see it is kind of like a a token is kind of almost like an empty it's an empty object that tracks something that you, like, impose some sort of value or, like, within the con it's very contextual. Like, whatever context that that token kind of exists, it's sort of like it it is going to be something else or or not. And so there is there's there are some similarities with, like, with voting and payments that I think are often, like, a little bit ignored kind of generally, but, they it's like the same the the Byzantine generals, problem is the same problem in payments as it is in voting, more or less. As far as, like, at least with voting, you you I mean, whatever in a in a highly democrat in the most democratic way possible, you spend it once, like, per person. You have to track whether or not that person has spent it once. That's a it's a one time payable token versus, like, money generally is, like, you just have to track and it's just, like, transferable between people. So I think, like, this kind of, like, thinking of this framework of almost, like, imposing I don't know if it's, like, necessarily a tokenized framework of voting, if if that's the right way to think about it, but, like, you are spending that's why I think you hear a lot of, like, this, the comparison between, like, money and voting that, like, you like, to vote with your money is, like, I think, a extremely neoliberal thing or to, like, Yeah. That the to convey the market as some, like, democratic process in which people have, vastly different amounts of voting power and can vote certain commodities to come to their home or, like, to come into their ownership. Yes. Yeah. So It's still like a, a a blurry, like, thought bubble that I have in my head that I want to expand upon at some point more, but, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at in in that in that space.
Yeah. No. I I I spent actually a summer. I think it was the summer before last. I'm sure there was an easier way of doing this, like, of scraping the data from the, the lists on GitHub. But, I was mostly just searching words and things and even just reading through the lists a lot. But, I remember coming across if, like, just you know, there was a lot of discussions about this, like money, you know, like the sort of the future markets, you know, stuff that that, you know, eventually an ideas markets, stuff that eventually did actually sort of become smart contract. But, I remember one of the quotes, which I think I used in the book where somebody said, the money votes and that's where the politics comes in, which is very much, you know, like what you
Yeah. What you just said there. But I think the the difficult part for me, though, is that there is, like, a kernel of truth in that, but it's like it's like a truth that is, like, that's the problem. It's not like or at least for me, it's effectively, it is the problem, but it because it is treated that way and it also is that way, like, you do I think in in many ways, like I don't know. I like to imagine, you know, billionaires are kind of like the economic planners of of the economy that, like, I don't know. This this idea or, like, difference between, like, planning and market economy is not as, like, in in my view, like, not as differentiated as, like, people think it is. I feel like Fig is more like you're choosing Yeah. Who is getting to plan things for us or not.
Yeah. No. I mean, that's I guess that's what's really scary, isn't it? It's like, you know, the architects of the future are billionaires. Right? Yeah. Yeah. You know? Yeah, which is kind of terrifying.
Yeah. But so, yeah. So, like, in in this historical context, maybe we can talk, like, explicitly about crypto and what does what does crypt what has crypto brought to the the the token world now in in in your mind?
Yeah. I mean, I thought I found it again. Maybe I'm I'm kinda historicizing it, but, even yeah. How'd you come at this? I guess, I I came to this through, in some ways, through crypto. So, you know, around, obviously, suddenly, the Bitcoin white paper is published in 2008, and that happens around you know, at the same time as the financial crash. Right. So suddenly, you know, a lot of people are sort of asking this question about, you know, the financial system being broken and how can we fix it. Why are people suddenly, you know, so so so drawn to these ideas that for a very long time were were were quite niche or were just sort of the purview of of of, you know, anarchists, libertarian, you know, these quite niche groups online, like the Cypherpunks or the Xtropians who are, you know, interested in Mars colonization and seasteading and and freezing their head. Suddenly these ideas have this have this traction that they didn't have before. And, presumably, you know, that that has something to do with, that particular kind of moment of of of crisis. And yet those ideas aren't they're not, like, they're not necessarily like that that new either. Yeah. I find kinda really interesting when I was doing research for the book was, I was writing the book in, like, 2020, 2021. So suddenly, there was all of this discussion of, like, Web three everywhere. And, so it was like, you know, are you fed up of platforms? Are you fed up of, like, Facebook and and Google and everything? Well, you know, here comes Web three to, like, radically decentralized the Internet, and blockchain is gonna, shake up the Internet, and it's gonna, you know, disintermediate, power. And, you know, as somebody who'd been kind of researching or sort of following that space for about twelve years, it seemed really, strange to me to sort of hear those claims being made because it seemed very, very only recently, I suppose, the similar claims had been made about Bitcoin and, how Bitcoin was going to radically, you know, disintermediate the banks. So, I feel like in 2020, you know, we heard that blockchain was gonna radically de disintermediate, like, platforms. And then few years before that, we heard that, like, Bitcoin was gonna decentralize banks. So there's sort of this claim, I suppose, that crypto was making that, it was going to sort of decentralize this token was gonna decentralize power. And yet in some ways, that that sort of claim that we can kind of design a different sort of money and and sort of do away with the middleman, that that claim has been around for a long, long time. So Mhmm. You know, when I was researching the book, I sort of ended up going back and and looking at like the history of anarchism and anarchist experiments with money and reading, like, you know, Joseph Prudhomme and his, like, you know, his sort of ideas and experiments with money. And a lot of that is about it's this sort of screed against, like, the parasitical middleman and, you know, how if only we redesign money and and sort of do away with banks and parasitical middlemen, you know, everything will be better. And,
for me to stop was a left wing like that idea from a left wing tradition had already existed for quite a long time. Yes. And
and what I find really interesting, and maybe I I'd be interested to know if this is something that rings a bell for you too. Because for me, what was really interesting as well is I coming from sort of maybe a European perspective, it seemed like it was something quite peculiar as well to, like, an almost an American kind of an anarchism where, it was this weird blend of, like, socialist anarchism meets free market economics. But, like so it's something that I would really I always thought was, like, very peculiar to Silicon Valley of, like, sort of California in ideology, like, nineteen eighties at the very earliest. But, actually, this was, like, 200 years old. This was, like, back when Silicon Valley was, you know, the valley of the hearts delight and, you know, computers hadn't been invented and the love heights were were still around. So it was like, wow, this is maybe this sort of ideology has always adhered in American mutualism and American anarchism. And I just didn't know it, you know, that it was like, it was this weird mix of, socialism and anarchism with free market principles. So Prudhom and then later, like, Josiah Warren and these sorts of experiments with, sorts of monetary, like, sorts of, monetary economies, different kinds of communes where you sort of leave, leave the state behind and you go up and set up a commune that's gonna be kind of more socially egalitarian, but kind of unlike maybe sort of more like communist experiments in Europe, they tend to uphold private property. So weirdly they're there. They still believe in private property. So that's a really big distinction and they still sort of believe in the exercise of the free market and the individual. And so all of those things are sort of upheld and yet though there's this still this kind of socialism, but with a free market. And so to me, that felt really like Silicon Valley esque. And then they also had this kind of trend of like, and also we're gonna, like, we're gonna decentralize power. But again, very like what you have today. It's like, how can we decentralize power? But it tended to be like a bunch of, like, white dudes just decentralizing power, and then there's, like, no women, like, no people of color involved. So there was even one, one community called Nashoba, you know, which was designed kind of progressively to, like, liberate African American slaves. But, again, like, you know, they none of the sort of black people within that community had any decision making power. You know? So Mhmm. Their their sort of their idea of, like, who who who was part of the we was was really kinda limited. Who actually got to make any decisions was really limited. What actually changed was often very, very limited. So again, it was kinda like, we'll all move up sticks. We'll move to our commune, and we're gonna, like, remake money. And somehow in remaking money, we'll remake society. But, you know, you can't remake society by just redesigning a token. Right. You know, everything kinda just stayed the same, really. And sorry. I don't know if that answers anything really to do with crypto. Well, I think, you know, just for me in terms of, like, where crypto sort of fits in with with tokens, it's this you know, it's it's sort of a it's part of a I suppose a a broader trend within the history of tokens maybe that's about, like, decentralizing power. And I just find it really fascinating when I looked at the history that it sort of seemed to slot in with this broader history of attempts to do that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I feel like I don't know. What what do you think, though? Because I actually I think sometimes, like, I feel a little bit on the back foot where I was very interested in crypto early on. And then sometimes now I feel almost like in the last year or two that, you know, I I feel a lot less, like, knowledgeable about actually, you know, the state of the art and things where I'm kinda like, oh, Ethereum moved to proof of stake. Oh, of course they did. Oh, I knew that. You know? Like, I'm a little bit, like, not It's it's not it's not easy to keep up with, like, the latest Yeah. Technological
updates, I guess, in the crypto world. And Yeah. There is not a single person, I think, that is up to date with everything because there is so much happening at the same time. It's and to, like, fully because I know. No. Like Yeah. But, I mean, I'd say to to points, I mean, yes. I I think it is like a it is like a very American thing to have this weird blend to call yourself anarchist and then have this, like, very right leaning view on economics in in my in my view. Like, definitely a lot of Americans have this who call themselves anarchists, and they I don't know. I'm being I'm being a bit facetious and bit rude, so sorry if you're an anarchist listening to this, but oftentimes they are people who have not read Proudhon or like any sort of like foundational anarchist writer. And I don't know. I think I think there's a whole other, like, hours long conversation about like probably the the effects of, of the cold war and the red scare in America and how it pushed a lot of people who were maybe progressive in in one sense, but then, I don't know, didn't didn't like the Soviet Union or something like that and so we're pushed towards anarchism. And were that was an easily cooptable kind of set of political ideas that then could take on, like, free market fundamentalism at the same time. It provided, I think, maybe, like, this, for lack of a better term, like, third way between, like, I don't know, American corporates, whatever, and, like, Soviet communism. And so that seemed nice. And I think with the rise of Silicon Valley, which was, you know, had this pretense of, like, being revolutionary and being, like, different than whatever traditional world. I think a lot of people fell into that, including a lot of the cypherpunks and why I think libertarianism was, like, successful in America in getting a lot of I mean, it's it's ultimately, like, kind of a a petite bourgeois kind of ideology, where decentralization is, like it is a it's a very, like, if you are also for for lack of better terms, I don't mean this in, like, like, so crudely, but, like, if you're, like, a white guy with, like, some money or, like, with just, like, a certain amount of privilege, then, like, libertarianism is a like, within your world of a lot of other white men, like, libertarianism is Yeah. Makes a lot of sense because you can because there are other white guys who have way more money than you and way more success than you or whatever else. It's like to decentralize that part to where it's more fair amongst white guys, but it's like your world. Like that's, I think you don't really Yeah. And whether or not you are engaged in like civil social justice movements, like, usually not. I mean, to be fair. Most people aren't. But yeah, I think, yeah, w with crypto, I think it's as far as, like, the monetary experiments, especially now, there is, like, I don't know. I like to use the word, like, affordance that there's been now this, like, very large there's been this increase of affordances with with what you can do with tokens and how they can operate that I think just we can only do because of, like, the digital and because of, like, being able to track all these things on one ledger for everybody to to take notice. And that has, like, really greatly expanded, what we can do. And those things can be, like, very positive or a bit negative. And it also just in the context of, like, hyper kind of, like, hyper capitalist kind of ideology within the crypto world, of course, like, speculation is a big is a big part of that, speculating. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So maybe the next question is, so, like, if if tokens are money or if tokens are not money, could we still think of money as a, like, type of token? Do you think that's, like, a useful way to to view things? That's, like, tokens with specific properties.
Yeah. I I feel like my head is so wrecked now by trying to distinguish between money and tokens. No. I I really I don't know. I yeah. I'm I'm not very good at diagrams, but I felt like, maybe yeah. Like, sometimes I feel like is token are tokens a subset of money? And then other times, I think is money like a subset of tokens? You know? That, like, tokens is bigger than money. You know? Mhmm. But I'm I I'm not and I'm not really sure. And I kinda go, like, back and forth between that. And then other times, I'm like, actually, you know, is there even any, like, difference between these two things? Or, you know, or or actually is there any difference between money or tokens? Or, you know, are are they actually all just exchange media? I think Hayek actually has a really nice quote, which I'm gonna paraphrase, where he says, you know, something about, like, there's no such thing as money and not money. All we have is different kinds of exchange media that sort of fade from sort of imperceptibly kind of from money into sort of not money, You know? And and kinda what even is the not money thing? Like, you know, my my six year old son in the summer was like, he and his friends were obsessed with single use vapes for ages, which is really gross. But they they got really obsessed with them, with, like, collecting. You know, they're, like, vape, you know vape, they're, like, little vape cartridges. Or something like that? That I don't know what they're called. I don't know what they're called. You know, they're like, they're like yeah. I I don't know. I I actually they're they're kinda one of those things that you don't see until, like, your kid starts collecting them and then, like, suddenly you see them everywhere. But, yeah, I think they're, like, people I think they're actually just so gross, but people, they started manufacturing these sorts of disposable vapes Mhmm. Where it's like you you vape them for a while and then they're kind of throw away, but they're sort of really colorful kind of neon plastic. So they look quite pretty. And anyway, for a while, the kids in our neighborhood, started, like, scavenging them, you know, finding them and kinda gathering them up and trading. But as an aside, yeah, they sort of ended up creating this sort of Their own monetary system. Yeah. They're a little monetary system around the used vapes, you know, which are trash obviously to everybody else. So, yeah, To sort of think about the Hayek thing of, you know, there's different kinds of exchange media, the very obviously money things that you can pay your taxes with right down to the should he use vapes that the six year olds are using as, like, prestige items? Mhmm. Like, what even is the nonmonetary thing? You know? What is what is the thing with absolutely no value? Mhmm. Maybe that's the what is not a token is maybe the more interesting question.
Yeah. We're all we're all tokens. Yes. Yeah. I I I think that, kind of when you were speaking earlier about tokens, like, how it is less than and also more than money. Like Yeah. That's why I I like to use the word affordance because it makes me think like tokens have different maybe affordances than Yeah. Than money do. And so you can maybe another way to think about it is like having I don't know, like, different types of capital control on, like, a token than, like, money does. Because, like, when I think of like, I really like Brett's analogy of thinking of Bitcoin as, oh, now I'm gonna now I'm forgetting the term. Oh, shit. This is killing me. But, anyways, it's like something that you Bitcoin is something that is not money, but I know what I know what you mean. I know this one. Yeah. I just can't I can't remember what it's called either. Yeah. It's about the money system. And they Because you are paying where it's money. Price it in real money and then, like, trade it Yeah. For for money, basically. Yes. Yeah. So Bitcoin is a token. It's not money, but it's it's a useful token that links to the monetary system. For some people and for some use cases that can be very helpful or useful. So I I it's like I you know, the first section of my book is, like, crypto as money. So, like, this analogy that a lot of people like to use of, like, crypto tokens are basically, like, a better form of money or something like that because it can it can do more things and we can program it. And but a lot of these, like, features are things that make crypto not monetary, not not money in itself, in the way that, like, at least most people would define money or as money being useful. Of course, you can do something like El Salvador, which, you know, made Bitcoin, like, legal tender, to kind of, like, retrofit it into the way we usually think about money. But then there's a lot of there's a lot of caveats to it. You never really nothing is priced in Bitcoin. It's always priced in dollars that you then trade that equal amount in Bitcoin. So then it's, again, it's not a unit of account, so it's not money. So I feel like it's, I don't know, affordances or, like, different types of capital controls than, like and then money having a very specific kind of, I don't know, capital control regime, then maybe tokens. And if you think of tokens as a commodity, then maybe that's still, you know, that still fits within, like, the Yes. The the idea of, like, capital control. I don't know. But so one of the things that you also talked about is how tokens have historically operated in gray and black markets. So I'm curious what you think. Like, how does this impact, like, the economy and society? If if things are tokens and tokens are for trading on gray and black markets, does that mean that tokens are just, like, a money laundering thing?
I mean, I I think they they sort of work both ways. Like, they tokens can work for users, you know, on platforms. They can be sort of a way of getting paid in, as you say, gray or black markets. But they're also a regulatory sleight of hand for platforms. So most of all, I think they're they're sort of a they work for the platform. They're way for the platform to act as an employer and act as a payments processor without officially being either, without actually taking on the risks or the responsibilities associated with either of those. So in the book, I I write quite a bit about Twitch, so the Amazon owned streaming platform. You know? And Amazon pays again streamers on that platform in this token called well, you know, one of the one of the tokens that's used on on Twitch are bits. And bits, you know, ostensibly in Amazon's terms and conditions on the side have no monetary value. You know? So they're not worth no monetary value. They're not money. You know? They they state that really, really clearly. And yet, you know, they cash out as money. You use money to buy them. You know? They have an exchange value. People use them to tip streamers. But, you know, because they ostensibly aren't money, streamers aren't employers, Amazon aren't or streamers aren't employees, Amazon aren't aren't an employer. They're also not a payments processor. You know, they're not dealing with payments and so on. And so often these tokens, you know, act as a sort of gray area where a platform can, you know, basically be employing without having to, as I say, do any of the the things that are associated with these things. And, you know, Amazon have, for a long time, been doing sort of bank like things in the background without actually applying for a financial license. And tokens then, you know, are are sort of a way of of doing this because it's not actually money. Mhmm. But, and streaming you know, I suppose as an example of this, tokens also can work for users. So, tokens are often used in, calming and in sort of sex calming sites where historically, workers have have struggled to be paid because traditional payments processors are adverse to to dealing with sex work, not because of any morality issues, but just because of kind of legacy with chargeback issues around Mhmm. Sex work, or it's seen as being kind of high risk, kind of a high risk industry for the payments processor just because of of issues with with with customers, charging back, their their payments. So turning around to being like, oh, I don't know how porn helped got online. Yeah. Credit, basically. So it's hard for people to be paid for that kind of work. And so it's hard, you know, it's hard to sort of make money. So tokens can be sort of a way around that then for the the streamer for the cam model. So they they work quite well in that sense. And, similarly, you'll see a lot of streamers or cam models will use wish lists as well. So if you scroll down, you'll often see a link to something like an Amazon wish list where people will put kind of gifts that somebody can buy them and send to them. And, you know, these may not even be something that somebody wants in particular, because it can be things that have high liquidity, like gift cards, that easily cash out into value. So yeah. Yeah. I think that sort of gray area can kind of, you know, works in both ways. But mostly, I think it works, you know, works for the platform.
Mhmm. And I guess this would be with the caveat that, like, this is kind of, this is true. This is kinda like the current rendition of of of tokens. Like, that because we live in this, like, very, could we say, like, platformized world, part of Yeah. Version of capitalism that this is kinda like the place where where where they tend to play. But this is also the case. I mean, we see it, I'm sure, in the past with with many other different types of what we can describe as tokens as well. But so, like, I I'm working right now on a video at some point that I hope to come out, about my experience in Istanbul recently where I went to the crypto OTC desk Yeah. In the Grand Bazaar in Istanbul. Super interesting experience Wow. Where I went and What's what's OTC stand for? OTC is over over the counter.
Over the counter. Yeah. I wasn't sure if that's what it stands for now. Okay. So I was able to,
like, buy crypto with cash, and Right. And have it sent to a completely, like, new wallet. So completely detached from maybe, like, a wallet that I have, like, related to, like, a centralized exchange or something like that. Yeah. And they sent it to me, like, no problem, and quite easily. And then, like, kind of the thing that I want to show a bit is that I was able to do that. It's like very well known if you go to Istanbul, like people who are in that world, like people with a lot of money in either crypto or cash can go there and convert it. And of course, there are a lot of like, there's plenty of criminals who probably use that service, of course, because they want to, hide their money or whatever. They want to, not pay taxes on it at the very least, if you know, otherwise just not get caught for whatever they can. Yeah. But from there, like, you can then you can so I I use money. I bought a token, a crypto, and I can convert that token into another token, which are gift cards, so that I could spend my my crypto. And it's completely detached from my identity. It's completely detached. So I'm able to do this, like, even I just use, like, a little bit of money, so not nothing nothing that's taxable. But, yeah, it is something that I've started to realize more and more, like, there are there are ways to I don't know. There's this, like, in I don't know if it's like an I don't know if crypto just brings, like, an increased liquidity to be able to access these types of tokens or that was always available, and there are plenty of other ways to do it. I've seen I've watched videos of people, basically doing money laundering through Spotify. It's actually a big problem in Sweden right now I I I've, seen where, like, these gangs are using Spotify. They're, like, make which is which is also the case with, like, hip hop in The US where they they created a rap group or something like that, and they use that to launder money that they were making, you know, on in black markets. And they're doing that in Spotify and in Sweden right now. So there's been an increase in, like, kind of gang activity because by using Spotify, which is based in Sweden, they don't have to comply with certain, like, you know, financial regulatory laws. So it's also like, I'm I'm kind of mixed between whether or not crypto is like this ultimate money laundering technology, or it's just like, in addition to things that anyways, people are going to find more and new and different ways to do anyways, whether or not crypto existed.
Yeah. I feel like, you need to talk to Lana Swartz. Do you know her work?
Yeah. I've I've I've come across it. I haven't reached out to her yet, though.
Yeah. So she's writing about scams at the moment. Her her next book is gonna be about scams. I think, you know, what's really interesting is she's sort of looking at how, you know, what we call a scam, obviously, today is is is, you know, it's so relative in some ways. And, like Mhmm. You know, how do we even define what a scam is right now? And, like, where do we draw the line between what we call legitimate and illegitimate finance? Like, no? Like, is something a scam when everybody is in on it? Why is it that, you know, one kind of activity is gambling when it takes place in a particular context and in another sort of a context where it's sort of formalized or presented in another way? It's it's, it's kind of a legitimate sort of financial operation. And, I just think it's, I think it's gonna be a fascinating book, but I also think, you know, this sort of, like, question of, like, what is and is not a scam, obviously, today is is really Blurry. Is such hasn't has never been never felt so relevant, even though it's probably feels really, really difficult to, to answer. I I don't have the quote in front of me. I I could try and pull it up, but, came across a quote from a a money journalist called Matt Levine. I remember when I was writing the book, I put it into tokens, but it was something like, you know, he was saying that, you know, I'm not gonna be able to remember it, but almost like the money traders would be able to turn around and say, you know, like, oh, I wasn't scamming people. I was sort of performing a, you know, a sort of piece of performance art, basically. No. And it's it's it's I think it's it's just it's it's increasingly difficult to to sort of figure out how do we how do we draw the line, you know, between what is, as you say, like money laundering and what is, a legitimate transaction or what is an illegitimate financial activity? What is, you know, business as usual? Yeah. But I I also find those sort of loopholes really, really fascinating. Even though sometimes, you know, you can sort of say, well, some of these are a little bit problematic because, you know, I find that, like, I look at some of those ones where it's like somebody getting paid for sex work, and I'm like, that's so great, and it's it's really interesting. But then you can, you know, apply the same lens to somebody, spreading, you know, extremist, like, content or, you know, like, pro rush Russian sentiment on Twitch, you know, where they've been, frozen out of other platforms. So, you know, there's a lot of, like, kinda hate speech on on Twitch as well where people are are being paid in tokens, on that platform to to sort of promulgate, you know, extremely, like, hateful content. And I suppose the problem with that is, like, the more extreme the content, the more the money sort of flows in. So, I mean, there's sort of there's always sort of two sides to to the coin in that sense.
Mhmm. So maybe for the last question before I let you go, based on your work, is there any advice for people who are currently building in crypto right now that you would like Oh. To give? Oh, got it. Been around I don't I
yeah. I was so sorry. I don't know if I do. I feel like I'm really bad. Like, I feel like I'm really bad at that kind of stuff. You know? Yeah. Sorry. Maybe we I mean, maybe I should be really honest about that. I feel, you know, even before, like, I wrote the book, I had a lot of discussions with, you know, my editor about what the book would do and, you know, whether it would have any sort of advice. And I just felt quite strongly that I didn't want to give any advice. I just I don't really feel like I'm very good at coming up with advice in that sense, but I also kind of feel felt more and more confused myself, I think, in the crypto space. Like, the longer the longer I was in it or something that that, you know, I I I just I I felt less and less sort of sure about kind of how what I felt was a was a good sort of position or not position, good direction to take. You know? Mhmm. So but, you know, before I even started writing it, I was sort of saying to my editor, like, I feel like I wanna write a book that is sort of, like, diagnostic and is describing the space, but I don't want to sort of finish with a prescriptive now here's what we do chapter. And I know that, you know, to a lot of people that will will be a sort of a drawback or a failing of the book, but I'm so happy to, like, sit behind that as as a limitation of my writing and limitation of my thinking. And hopefully, you know, there's, like, there's other people who can kind of read that and maybe come up with ideas from it. You know? I'm I'm just I'm not that person, but I know that's not very not very good note to end on maybe. Yeah. I don't know. What do you feel, as somebody who's who's been working in this space a long time? Like, do you do you ever I've I found, like, speaking to people who who in the art space, for example, who who've been working for a while, that there was maybe a a little bit of a sense of disillusionment in the last year or two. Like, what what's your advice?
I mean, it really depends, of course, on, like, what what it is the thing that that person is interested in wanting to build and, like, what what kind of space that they want to do. Mhmm. I think part of it is that, I mean, one I think the biggest thing that I would ask or advise for people working in the crypto space is to have, a better understanding of capital as, like, a concept, as, like, an actually existing thing that permeates, like, society and, like, at large, and that it requires, like, a critique and a criticism, and that it is not, like, a neutral kind of entity that exists that we just kind of, like, wheeled around, you know, and, like, whatever, like a like a sword or something like that. But that that's something to like, thinking about, Yeah. Capital and money. Like, money more or less has, in today's form of capitalism, very few restrictions and very little control. And to some people, that's a good thing because that means freedom. But I would say for the vast majority of people, that is not, like, in itself a, like, a freedom. It actually impedes on many other types of freedoms that that we may have. And so adding limitations to or certain types of what we can call capital controls can create different affordances than if we were just to create, like, a an an Ethereum called an ERC 20 token, like, just, that that standard toke that that token standard, which is usually thought of as, like, okay, since it's, since it's a standard, since it's, like, able to communicate with all these different types of smart contracts and it's, like, this ultimate free market tool, when maybe we should be thinking about ways that we don't want our token to be tradable or traded, and that we actually do want some amount of control for that. That's why I think I have, you know, the the term soulbound token is, of course, a bit freaky and weird. But I think if you dig into Where? What they were trying to get at in that paper, there is a seed of, like, something interesting there of basically how do we reduce the hyper financialization of basically every single digital asset that's being that that is on a blockchain. And how do we instead create these controls so that it it it instead brings people together in on something else besides, like, either financialization, speculation, or, like, commodity fetishism? To have, like, some other something else that is, like, what is bringing people together that isn't those things? And then Yeah. You know, seeing if the affordances brought to you by crypto is something that is, like, useful to facilitate that.
Yeah. No. I think, like, I was really drawn you know, I've been drawn to, like, examples in the past where people have sort of explored ways of trying to, you know, imbue tokens with other values. I mean, maybe, you know, one of the kind of exciting things about the idea of, like, nonfungibility is obviously the idea that, you know, you could sort of insert, you know, other you're you know, by by sort of making something nonfungible in some way, you are actually sort of thinking about exactly that, about what sort of other values might you actually, you know Imbue in that token. Bringing yeah. Imbue to that token whether those are sort of care for others or care for the environment, for example. And and I actually you know, while some of the examples that, you know, I talked about earlier, obviously, were were were more worrying things like, you know, inserting values, like constraining what the poor can do with their money. Mhmm. The flip side of that is that, you know, potentially, could you sort of make tokens then that that that actually, yeah, invite, as you say and affordances, I think, is a really, you know, good word there because it's not about maybe forcing people to behave in particular ways, but just inviting maybe other sorts of behaviors, whether that care or cooperation.
Just to then Yeah. Completely finish off, would you like to share with people, where people can keep up with your work and where they can get the book?
Oh, sure. I guess, I have a a website, which is just racheld'oir.com, and I have a Substack called Living Currency where I'm sort of exploring ideas around money and, digital culture at the moment. And, yeah, I guess you can get the book in most bookshops and on Verso in various kind of places where you can buy books. And it's, yeah, it's available as an audiobook as well if you like to listen to books, which I know I do.
Cool. Well, thank you so much, Rachel, and I really appreciate having you on. And, yeah, I think the book pairs well with mine, so definitely check it out. Okay. That's friends.