It doesn't matter if the AI is fake, it's all magic anyways
For this episode I spoke to Nick Susi, Executive Director of Strategy at dotdotdash who recently wrote a really interesting article on his Substack titled magic, online!. The article goes into the history of magical thinking that accompanied many of the past's technological achievements like phones that let you talk to the dead or fairies that appeared in some of the first photographs and how today we again see magical thinking accompany AI's proliferation. During the interview we talk about...
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Transcript
It's going. Alright. Hi, everyone. You're listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast, and, I'm Josh. And I'm speaking today to Nick Susie who wrote this really interesting substack piece called Magic Online that I really want to talk about because sometimes I think the lines between technology and magic are a little bit blurred. And Nick wrote a really interesting piece that I think, went into it pretty well. Yeah, Nick, maybe rather than me butchering your introduction, would you like to introduce yourself to to the audience and go into it?
Sure. Thanks. Thanks, Josh. Yeah. My my name is Nick. I professionally do a lot of, research. I do a lot of strategy work for a variety of different types of clients, big and small companies, individuals. I started out in music working with, like, a lot of artists. But the through line through it all is really helping folks that I work with and collaborate understand these, like, macro cultural shifts and how to, adapt to them, and that can be applied in any number of ways. So
we'll we'll talk about that in the sense of, like, new technology and and magic in this case. Yeah. I mean, I guess, is this, like, a kind of topic, like, I don't know. Are you into, like, esoteric or, like, the occult? Was this, like, something that fascinated you before while working with I don't know the difference, people you worked with before?
Yeah. I mean, part of what I love about my work is I just like to learn, and and it allows me to just, like, learn about a lot of random shit and go very deep very fast. And I think in this case, I I was interested in magic, as a kid more from, like, the, like, performance, like, magic, less so the the occult, because of my grandpa. He was a magician. But it was part of what I like about my work too is, like, you just get to talk to, like, a lot of really random, fascinating people. And through the process of, doing a lot of this research, it was awesome speaking to a lot of magicians and kind of probing what their thoughts about technology in the future were. Right. I learned a lot. It was great. Cool. Cool.
Yeah. So in this piece called Magic Online, that's what it was titled, you start off noting that, like, each wave of technology has been accompanied with some, like, amount of magical thinking along with it. You had some, like, really interesting examples. I was wondering if you wanna, like, talk about maybe some of the the the, I guess, the ones that you find the most interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I guess to to start to define it, like, magical thinking is basically the belief that your thoughts or words or, you know, emotions, different ritualistic behaviors, like, all these things have some kind of special influence or supernatural power over the world around you. And so what I wanted to explore, was this relationship between magical thinking and, like, every major innovation technological cycle since the birth of electronic or electric media with the telegram in, like, the eighteen hundreds to the present day. So, you know, there's a lot of different examples, that I get into, but I think some interesting ones, you know, first with the telegram. When the telegram first became publicly available, there were these two young teen sisters, the Fox sisters, and they would host these, seances and they would claim that they could communicate with ghosts and spirits through this like Morse code like tapping on tables on walls. And it sparked this, like, major growth in the Western spiritualism movement of people believing in ghosts, thinking that they could communicate with them. And a lot of this, you know, stemming from the the telegram. And subsequently lots of, debates about whether these claims and abilities were real or fake. And even after, you know, the the sisters admitted this wasn't real, they were long debunked. Despite that, the spiritualism movement that they were a big part of kind of kept growing, despite that knowledge. You know, I I think another example is around, like, the camera and photography. In the early 1900s, similarly there were also two very young girls. They claimed that they had captured these photographs and their camera of fairies in their backyard garden, which then became known as the Cottingley fairies. And by 1900 standards, it it went super viral. You know, again, it, like, sparked this huge growth and popularity in the the Western, like, spiritualism movement. Lots and lots of debates again about are these fairies and photographs real or fake. Ironically, sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who's the creator of Sherlock Holmes, you know, one of the he he was one of the foremost supporters of these photographs. Like, he was really, like, investing a lot of time and money and, like, making sure that, like, everyone saw this amazing thing, which, of course, it turned out these fairies ended up just being, like, cut out paper dolls on on sticks, and that these two, you know, really young girls fooled, like, the creator of the world's greatest detective. Very ironic. But, there there's a great book by Jeffrey Skonce called Haunted Media that explores, like, a lot of these things that I talk about, that I highly recommend.
Mhmm. Very cool. I think and then I think there was one that maybe you mentioned of, like, Thomas Edison, or he also was, like, trying to push a kind of, like, was it, like, electricity and ghost connection?
Yeah. It was called the spirit phone. He he was trying to invent a version of the telephone that you could use to communicate with, the dead, basically. Right. So it's just interesting to see, like, there's almost no exception. Like, every major technological innovation, you see the same kind of stories and patterns emerging. And in the research and essay, I only really focus on, like, the start of electric media and forward to the present. But I think technology has accelerated a lot of this. But this is something that's existed, like, even longer ago. Like, one thing that one example that I love that I didn't end up including that predates, electric media and modern technology is, you know, for, like, hundreds and hundreds of years from the Middle Ages through the Renaissance, like, people believed in unicorns. And they thought that the horns of this, you know, mythical beast had these, like, magical properties that could prevent you from being poisoned. So people would find and sell these these actual horns, mostly to royalty to either turn them into powder. They would put them in drinks, and they would think that they would be prevented from being poisoned to death. Or they would make the horns into these, like, goblets that then whatever gets poured in, like, couldn't be poisoned. And it wasn't until way, way later that people realized that what they mistook for unicorn horns were actually narwhal tusks that historians assume that, like, the Vikings brought over probably around, like, 1,000 AD. But the point of all this is that there's these constant historical patterns that show us it's like a very real human experience to turn to the supernatural or conspiracy or spiritualism, the cult, whatever, in our effort to make sense of new and unfamiliar things, especially technology and and new media, and how they might change or affect us.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, that's interesting. I, like, I found that, like, through my experience of being in crypto, like, there is, like, a not insignificant amount of what I can only kinda describe as, like, techno hippies or, like, people who are, like, at the same time, very into computers and digital tech and also into some form of, like, spiritualism and magical thinking that I found, like, interesting. But yeah. I mean and then now with, like, the proliferation of AI, this has become, I think, like, I don't know. It's just been, like, turbo boosted or something like that with, I I don't know if you just, like, go into a lot of the, like, more intense kind of, like, type of stuff. I mean, they pull a lot from, like, Nick Land, of course, and, like, there's this, like, element of the occult inside of this. And so, I mean, to me, it's like, yeah, it's it it tracks. When you know the history, it's like, oh, like, this is not the first time at all. I mean, probably the the, you know, the discovery of fire was probably this huge, you know, religious, like, spiritual event for for early humans or whatever else. But, yeah, you also talk about I mean, I think you're kind of alluding to it now, but or before, but, like, magical thinking as being a way for people to have a kinda sense of control. Yeah. I mean, I have a lot of thoughts about that, but I wonder if you maybe you can, explain what you mean by that.
Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of magical thinking is this, coping mechanism for stressful or uncertain situations, you know, it can it can really help people feel more in control when they have very little control, to calm anxiety, to build confidence, whatever. So, I mean, there's there's so many examples of this. So in sports, you know, we frequently see people, in the ritual of, like, wearing certain items of clothing so your team doesn't lose. Or, you know, if you're gambling, you're betting on your lucky number so you don't lose. Like, those are small kind of trivial, harmless examples. When you start getting into, like, psychology and mental health with something like OCD, you know, someone might try to regain a sense of control over their, like, looping anxious, intrusive thoughts through a certain behavior. Like, I'm going to touch this doorknob five times before leaving the house so that when I leave, I know it's not gonna catch on fire. What whatever. Right? And even, when you start getting into, like, science and medicine, you know, you see this with placebo effects, both positive and negative. Like, someone can take something that's not actually real medicine, but the belief and perception that it is real is enough to, like, actually have some kind of healing effects or whatever over, the thing. And so the examples we were talking about before, you can turn to the telegram or the spirit phone to try to communicate with a lost loved one because you're grieving. Or you can turn to, you know, these magical unicorn horns as a king or queen who fears for their life through assassination. You know, all of these things defy logic and rational and rational thinking. We're, like, turning to these irrational measures to regain this sense of control over, like, really real kind of underlying feelings, fear, whatever. But to bring it back to today, like, when you look at now, especially, the world is on fire. Like, when you look at now, especially, the world is on fire. Like, climate, geopolitical, conflicts rising, we're still in, like, the aftermath of COVID, financial struggles everywhere. And I think the the more extreme the stress and uncertainty, it's likely that there's a more extreme, like, coping mechanism. And I think on top of all of that, then you add technology into the equation. There's this, like, constant new we're, like, always in a new technological innovation cycle now. They're getting faster and faster, more frequent. And the ways that they're fundamentally changing society and us as individuals is not insignificant. And so all those things combined, like, you have this perfect recipe for magical thinking. And I think this is where I'm, like, a little speculative. But I think as magical thinking becomes more frequent and normative amongst a group of people or a society, like, when you look at social proof, like, we we are social creatures. Like, we mimic and imitate and mirror each other. Like, it could grow into this, like, mass sociogenic illness, that's very culturally normative to a group or a period of time, that then starts to feel like this, like, epidemic of collective delusion. And I think when I when I look at what's happening in the world today, I'm like, that maybe explains a lot of how we how we got here.
Yeah. I don't did you like, one of the things that kinda comes to mind for me is, like, are the, like, the singularity type of stuff. Like, to me, that feels like very much a kind of, almost like a coping mechanism that, like, technology is gonna keep going no matter what. Like, the techno capital machine is going to keep, innovating and innovating and making new stuff and new stuff, that we just should, like, lay back and, like, just let it happen and, like, embrace it for the god that it is. I don't know.
Yeah. I mean, it's kinda what you were saying before. Like, the on both extreme ends of the spectrum, like, AI doomerism or, like, complete embrace of this singularity, I, you know, I I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that it's very connected to these historical patterns. Yeah. It's just like our current flavor of how it's manifesting in the world. Or, like, you know, you're talking about Web three before. Like, there's these borderline religious, almost cult like communities forming around Web three as this almost, like, magical spiritual thing that's gonna Right. Change the world. Like, I I think all these things are connected. And to me, like, I think when you don't see the historical patterns, it's really easy to be like, oh my god. Like, what's happening in the world? Like, why do people believe this? Whatever. But I think, I kind of already felt this, but as I went, like, super deep into this, it just it's showing me that it's it's almost normal even though it's not normal in a way. Like, it makes me feel a lot more empathy for, like, oh, this is, like, actually quite expected and unoriginal almost. It's just like we're we're kind of coloring within the lines of, like, the framework of what is what is to be expected. And to be clear, I I say that as someone who works in technology and uses all of these emergent tools every day, and I'm very, like, excited and curious about them. I'm not, like, anti technology person. I just think it's really interesting in understanding these, like, historical and and humanistic patterns, how it just better helps us understand, you know, what's happening. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. No. I I think
yeah. I mean, even, like, don't know if you remember, like, y two k and, like, these types of events where, you know, this expectation of some, like, big event was supposed to happen, you know, and then it was there's something about, like, also I mean, kind of like the I remember, like, the first few times I was using, like, these AI kinda, like, image generation tools, I was like, wow. This is crazy. This is, like, fucking I haven't, you know, been this excited about something in a while. And then it loses but, like, I I kinda noticed that it loses its, its its magicalness, at least for me. It becomes less magical after you see it a few times. It's almost like this, yeah, something about, like, this novelty and then, like, seeing something emergent, I think, is, like it's exciting and scary at the same time that, like, you know, like, this this completely changes, you know, x y z or whatever and and to yeah, you have to cope with, like because you don't know exactly what's going to happen. So you have to make this kind of, like, funky, I don't know, malleable kind of framework, I think, that is, like, conducive with kinda magical thinking, I guess, to to make sense of it. That's not like to be, like I don't know. Like, I'm I'm I'm also, like, sympathetic with people, you know, in that because it's like yeah. There's a lot of shit going down, and it's hard to make sense of it all. So we have to, like, come up with these stories or narratives that are malleable enough to, like, whatever could happen in the future. I see it. Right. Totally.
Totally. Yeah. I mean, that's that's part of why I was trying to use magic as this encompassing metaphor of how to talk about and think about this because to what you were saying before, it's like, to to me, if you see the same magic trick over and over again, granted, some people might be totally mystified by it every time. That's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think some people start to see, like, oh, okay. Like, I I see where they hid the cart on the second time. And now every time after that, you have a totally different way of of seeing and and thinking about it and, like, navigating that. And I I just think that's very true about this context as well. Like, the first time you use Midjourney or chat GPT or something, it's like, oh my god. This is gonna change everything. And and might, but maybe not in the, like, extreme ways, and, like, mystical ways that, there's, like, some of these narratives that form around.
Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know. And then I think there's so much to say about, like, at least in the in the Bitcoin world especially, there's there's a lot of there's there's a very close link with, like, religious thinking and, like, Bitcoin maximalism or, you know, whatever you want to call it. I mean, but, so, like, this this question, I think, that you bring up, you know, is it real or is it fake? And I think it's, like, it's great at encapsulating kind of, like, also the moment now with, like, the proliferation of of AI, which, of course, seems to be growing. And it's, like, oh, oh my god. Everything's going to be AI. I'm not gonna be able to know what is reality and what is not. This is, you know, classic Baudrillard. We're all in a, simulation, simulacra, whatever else. And, yeah. I think, this is not a new phenomenon. Of course, as I said, we can see how media has already kind of blurred anyways what is real. Like, we didn't need AI to blur reality. That's already kind of been happening for a few decades now. And you kind of and then you you talk about, like, I think because I studied neuroscience. So I found it like I was like, oh, yeah. He was right. You know, like, our brains constantly also trick ourselves as, like, part of of survival. Like, that's, like, what humans do in order to, like, you know, do whatever. But, yeah, I guess, do you want to maybe talk a little bit about this more on this, like, yeah, on this is it real? Is it fake? And, like, how our brains are are tricking us anyways.
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I'll start with the the media part, and then we can get to fun neuroscience. So, you know, part of what I talked about in the essay is a few examples. So one, you know, if you look at the Roman Empire, they're bred in circuses. Basically, the ruling class, you know, created these entertaining spectacles in the Colosseum. So think, like, Russell Crowe in the gladiator. Like, are you not entertained? Like, that whole vibe. But, you know, these were designed to generate this, like, public approval by feeding all these people superficial comforts, the bread, circuses, while meanwhile, diverting attention away from the reality is, like, what's actually happening, which is, like, the ruling class keeps building more and more power control. You know, it it's all misdirection, which again is why I keep leaning back on this, like, magic analogy. The perceived reality presented before you is actually a distraction from, like, what's actually happening behind the scenes. Right? You know, another example is with Edward Bernays, who's Freud's nephew, and in the twentieth century, basically after world the first World War, you know, Bernays started to apply the principles of war propaganda. Like how do you shape public perception and drive action to, like, make people willing to go die in a war to do business. And he became the father of public relations, as it's known today, and really laid the foundation for that. And so one of his earlier experiments is the Torches of Freedom. He basically used the spectacle of, like, women smoking while marching in parades, like big Easter Day parade, whatever, which, you know, by nineteen twenties standards was extremely controversial. Like, it was only really men smoking. If women did it, they were kind of looked at as, like, dirty or, like, should be outcast or whatever. But in in creating these media spectacles started to transform cigarettes into the symbol of, like, like, women pushing back for their freedom, for equality, and cigarettes became a symbol for it. So the the designed or constructed perceived reality of cigarettes as the symbol through media kind of overtook the actual reality of what cigarettes are. I think Bernays even went so far as to, like, pay for scientists or whatever to do experiments that you know, basically saying, like, these are not bad for your health, to stick with that perception. So, you know, in doing so, over the the decade of that, you know, cigarette sales unsurprisingly spiked. They, like, went way up. They increased exponentially amongst women. But over the next hundred years to now, you know, Bernay's work really planted those early seeds for what modern consumerism looks like today and and why it is that we just buy tons of shit that we don't actually need. It's like we we we perceive that these things are important that we do when the the actual reality is, like, that we we we might not. Yeah. This is, I think, this is a, Society of the South. I think Adam Curtis's documentary goes into he goes into this a bit. But yeah. Yeah. Century of the South is a great Adam Curtis Yeah. Yeah. No. So, like, for me, like,
you know, I I I wrote some notes about this because I remember this study in, like, one of my neuroscience classes about this bird. So, like, in this study, they show that, like, it's it's called the the herring gull. The the the chicks of the of the herring gull would react to the red beaks of their mothers, and that's what they would peck at for food. There's kind of, like, when they were born, they're already ingrained with, like, peck at the red thing, you know. And then scientists created a wooden board in which they put, like, a really intense red dot on the board and they found that the chicks were even more reactive to that board than they were, like, the mother's beak for, pecking at it for food. So it's like this like, for me, I remember thinking, like, this is, like, this is kind of what, like, hyper real is, you know. Like, it's, like, more intense than kind of, like, maybe the, I don't know, biological or native kind of reaction that your, body evolved for. And now it's, like, becoming much more intense. And I think, that is what a lot of really good marketing is, you know. It's just like kind of like you have maybe this, like, natural desire for x y z, but you just, like, you find the the loophole or whatever to, like, make people react to it, like, 10 times more so that they really need to, whatever, buy cigarettes so that they can appear, in such a way. In psych, they call it the the peak shift effect.
Didn't remember that. But Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. It's you know, our brains are fascinating. Like, I think the more that we understand about how our brains are are naturally naturally wired, you know, we start to understand what our own natural and very human vulnerabilities are, that we can better watch out for if only we had better awareness. Right? I mean, you you studied neuroscience, you know, probably far more than I do. But A long time ago. You know, our our brains, yeah, our brains are like these prediction machines. Yes. And we're not always good at predicting things. Yeah. And we're constantly trying to, like, predict and fill in the gaps of how we make meaning, from what we see before us. And, you know, our brains are, like, constructing these perceived realities through this constant prediction and, like, controlled hallucination cycles, you know, like, autocomplete for our brains. You know, I think a lot about I hadn't heard a while ago. Like, if if you drink a glass of water, you immediately feel hydrated and refreshed even though our actual body hasn't, like, processed that water for hydration until much later. And I think, you know, it's just good, like, metaphors or frameworks for everything else because I think it's our lack of not knowing our own limitations, natural, totally human limitations and biases, that fuels a lot of this magical thinking. Like, the the the Dunning Kruger effect is basically, like, this this cognitive bias where people have very little to no competence or knowledge in a particular area but are, like, very confident in overstating their thoughts or abilities. And, like, I don't know about you, but every time I open up TikTok or Twitter or whatever, like, that's basically all I see. It's, like, people trying to predict the future or, like, make sense of what's happening in the world that they have little to no control over to to fill in these gaps and feel a greater sense of control, even though a lot of people are just, like, not right at all. And it's, like, rooted in no reality, but it's just, like, it's that bias. It's just, like, well, I have to know. I have to predict. Like, I have to feel that sense of control. Right. I think some it's sometimes I think for a lot of people, it's
more comforting to believe in something that's not correct right now than to believe in nothing, to believe in that, like, anything could happen right now. Like, you know, if anything can happen, then what do I do right now? Like, what what do I prepare for? But I would rather, you know, believe in something kinda off because at least God gives me direction.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because it's it again, it, like, goes to very core human feelings. Like, it's very scary to be stuck in this perpetual state of, like, not knowing, uncertainty, no sense of control. Like, it's just not, like, a nice place to be. So there are, like, positive psychological benefits of, like, why we do this. Like, it really is a coping mechanism or, like, self preservation or something. You know?
Yeah. And this is your, since you're talking about, you know, like, creators on on Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Like, you mentioned, you know, everyone now is not just a creator, but they're an illusionist. That was really interesting. I mean, in part, I'm wondering if, like, this can at least be said because we're using technology that none of us seem to be able to fully comprehend, that shares information across, like, vast networks that no I mean, just no one knows how exactly it works, it seems, and, like, you know, the the specifics. And, of course, like me, unfortunately, being a content creator, I guess, you know, like like, am I an illusionist? Because, like, I also there because there is this, like, pressure in content creation to, like, whatever. Like, you know, I hate like, you have to put, like, you know, soy boy face in the YouTube thumbnail because people are gonna react that that's gonna up your click rate. And, like, I go through these, like, you know, YouTube recommend like, how to be a YouTuber type of stuff. And, like, I don't know. I mean, I fucking hate it. But I also know that, like, if I just do a little bit of some of those things and, like, I see the results. Like, it does, like, more people tend to click and more people tend to look because of this, like, you know, ridiculously titled episode. I gotta think of something absolutely ridiculous to title this one because we're talking about magic and technology. But, like, that's how that's how I, like, am able to spread, like, my my content, you know, which is, of course, not my entire goal of what I do, but it's at least part of it.
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean, to be fair, I'm being a little cheeky and provocative when I say that about, like, everyone's an an illusionist.
But I I think like, I I took it as, like, inadvertently an illusionist because you're using, like, the tools of TikTok or what, like, whatever platform and, like, you know, you can't do the shit that you do on these platforms in the way that you would do in real life. I don't know. There's, like, more Right. More unknown.
Yeah. Everything's a choice. Like and and when I say somewhat jokingly everyone's illusionist, it's not also implying that that's, like, a bad thing. Because I think everything's a choice. To what you just said, like, while our online lives and, like, real lives are getting more and more blurred, and I think the significance of our online lives continues to grow, There are certain choices made about, like, how we present things online that doesn't happen in the same ways in real life. Like, so even there's a great, analogy that my friend, Matt Klein, who's the author of, Zine and the head of Foresight at Reddit. Like, a good analogy that he uses is, like, documentaries what what you see in a documentary is still fueled by decisions that, like, a director or editor made. They're not actually showing you, some kind of, like, objective thing. Even if they're trying to be as objective as possible, there's still Yeah. Decisions made about, like, where the camera's pointing, what gets cut, what gets left in. You know, I was just watching, last night, Gerard Carmichael's reality show, which I love and and absolutely recommend. But, basically, Gerard Carmichael, he's a writer, comedian, actor. He's basically doing, like, a Truman show to himself. Like, he's just having cameras follow him around everywhere, both in his life and in his stand up performances. And part of his whole, like, thing is he really tries to lean into the most uncomfortable personal situations to, like, expose his own vulnerabilities and almost, like, work through them live with an audience. It's really cool. Like, I I love it. It's very unique to him. But I think what's interesting about the show is, like, what he's showing you as an audience, there's still decisions made behind the scenes that you don't know about that's shaping the narrative and, like, how you perceive what his real life is. And he he almost acknowledges that in, like, a sneaky way in the first episode where he has a friend come in and be like, I wanna have no part of this because you're basically manipulating things behind the scenes like people don't actually know. And so that's that's the very blurry gray line that we live in where we look to social media as, like, real life, from our friends, from our peers, from strangers. But, like, we don't actually know. There's a huge gap between, like, what we see and what has actually been choices made of, like, what's shown, what's not shown, how things are edited. And, again, that's not a bad thing. That's just kind of, like, the reality of how the mechanics of that machine works. And it feels like a a fault to just assume that when you, like, pop up your phone and open up a social media app or whatever that everything you see is real. Mhmm.
Yeah. That's something that, like, I found act kind of a to like, at a certain point, I remember I realized, like, when when you're looking at media, everything is a choice in how it's kind of worked out and that, like, I don't know, this idea of kind of, like, purely objective news or something like that is, like, a little bit it feels to me like a little bit of a farce. Like, you can't really like, what is true objectivity? And is is that even something that is, like, plausible or or or feasible necessarily in in a lot of different contexts and and media? But, yeah, like, even if you want to be your authentic self, to be as authentic as possible, you still have to you have to perform authenticity in many ways. Like, you know, there is no such thing as, like, not performing authenticity, it seems. So you, like, you have to I don't know. Like, we're all you know, life's a stage, and we're all, like, performing, you know, like, especially when it comes to social media.
Yeah. Totally. I mean, part of what part of what inspired, you know, going down this rabbit hole and writing about all this. I I think I mentioned before. My grandfather, in addition to being an accountant, was also a magician or is also a magician. And, so, you know, when when I was really young, I learned a lot from him about, like, the secrets behind, like, different magic tricks and how they work. And then I got pretty good at being able to, like, see different performances and understand okay. I understand what's kinda happening behind the scenes and, like, how this is done.
And so Even if they were tricks that you didn't necessarily know the exact mechanics yet.
Right. Right. Right. Totally. And so maybe, like, a year and a half, two years ago, my my partner and I went to Speakeasy Magic, which is an awesome magic show at the McKittrick Hotel in New York, which I highly recommend going to. But, we we took some mushrooms beforehand, and we went to the magic show. And, so we were not in, like, a totally normal state of mind. And so each magician's coming up during their performance. And I'm, like, watching performance after performance, and I'm starting to feel, like, really, really angry. Like, with every trick of, like, looking around at the audience. Like, everyone's totally pissed off. Lying to you. Don't trust him. Yeah. I can't shake this down. Like, don't you see? They're lying to you. And, you know, afterwards, like, coming back down and, like, reflecting on, like, why did it get so angry? I it it it was an interesting, like, meditation on magic as, like, this perfect metaphor for our current relationship with new technology and social media and all the things and just how much, like, misdirection there is at the core of everything, from things you were saying before about, like, how much new technology and and the communities around them are so coded in, like, these ideologies beyond the product itself Mhmm. At this point and how everyone really at this point is just, like, constructing or designing their own realities through social profiles or avatars or whatever. And I think we're all feeling this increasing sense of confusion about is what we're seeing before our eyes, like, totally real or fake? And so that's where this, like, illusionist, reference or analogy came from. Because I think using a magic show as a metaphor, like, I I think part of the fun of a magic show is is you are knowingly opting into what you're about to see before you is an illusion. And yet, they still fool you anyways. Mhmm. And I think that's, like, part of the the fun and what makes it so exciting. And I feel like that should be the default for how we, like, approach or interact with the Internet or social media or new AI tools, whatever. But it's almost not. And I think it's the reverse for for most people. And and I think the question itself of is it real or fake is the wrong question. To me, that feels like so surface level Right. When we need to be asking deeper questions about what is the intent of the creator or performer. Like, what is the level of awareness or consent of audience for what they've signed up for or, like, logged into? And then what is the ultimate, like, impact that that has on the individual or the society or whatever. And I think that's what really separates, you know, an illusionist or magician or whatever who's applying misdirection to just purely entertain an audience. Because, like, to me, I was having the unfair reaction in my mushroom induced state at the magic show. You know, like, why are they lying? Like, it's it's all in good fun. Everyone has opted in. Right? The intent is to entertain. There's consent of the audience. The impact is just, like, pure inspiration and excitement and whatever versus, you know, an illusionist who applies misdirection to, like, trick someone in a vulnerable state into, like, bending their belief system or opening their wallet or whatever. And, like, there's a lot of examples that I give in the the essay of, like, patterns of this through both new technology, but also just, like, within the magic community, this kind of constant struggle and fight of, like, how do we preserve the art for good rather than it being used for more nefarious purposes?
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the same skills that make you good at being a magician are the same skills that make you good at being a huckster or whatever else. Right. Yeah. Totally. Totally. That's why we should ban all magicians. No. I'm kidding. Exactly. But so, like, so one of the things that I I also wanna talk about because you mentioned social media being the problem but also the solution. I'm like, in some ways, I'm I'm sympathetic to that, but also a little bit skeptical in that. What I've noticed that it seems really easy, you know, to send messages across wide networks, that are really, really cheap. And, it seems to me that this, like, ability or, like, affordance that now this has been able to do is that, like, people with a lot of money are able to basically spam, you know, the network. Like, they have way more money and are able to therefore put forward their their narratives because there was I'm just thinking of, like, you know, there was a time, you know, when people were a little bit more starry eyed about about tech and, like, being able to send messages, across Facebook or Twitter or whatever else, like, during the the I'm forgetting the the thing in Egypt. But what ended up happening is that a lot of times, like, the the rich people still want out. You know? Like, they were able to put their message out just so much more because of the ability to to do it cheaply. Whereas kind of like the our I feel like for a lot of people, it's like, oh, if it's cheaper, then it's better for the common person. But sometimes so, like, I'm I'm still, like, back and forth. And, of course, I'm like, I'm I use social media all the time because I have I want to share my message or my content or whatever else. But I also feel like there's probably a lot of limited returns in doing that. But, also, you know, sometimes you see that someone does break through and becomes viral for, like, a progressive message. But, anyways, I don't know if you had any, like, thoughts on that kinda on that level.
Yeah. Totally. I mean, it's a it's a big debate and and discourse. Right? Like, who should who should control and have access to the creation and distribution of media? Everybody or a select few? Like, you know, looking at some of the examples from before, whether it's in, like, Roman Empire times or the stuff with Edward Bernays, like, there was much there were very few people who had the control and access to creating and distributing media and how that was then applied to shape general public. Right? And so I think there's pros and cons to both. Right? Like, I don't think there's a perfect answer, but I I think the hope is that it's net positive that if people can then, like, create and shape their own narratives, that that's hopefully net positive as an individual or really more so as, like, communities or marginalized communities or whoever. Like, how how can they do that? Because I think even presocial media, like, again, the the patterns are very similar the same. How people would use, like, print media or zines or something as a form of, like, rejecting the mainstream print media or whatever as getting owning their own narratives and how the connection between, you know, those those print media formats and the growth of different subcultures or communities were able to kind of, like, preserve what it is that they're trying to create and and their values and how they how they grow and proliferate. So I think, you know, now social media is just, like, another evolution of those advances, but, you know, it's it's not perfect by by any means. There's obviously a lot of negative things, but, you know, it wasn't long ago that even being able to create and distribute your own podcast was just, like, not a possibility. You know what I mean? Yeah.
So yeah. Sure. I mean, like, it is like when I started looking into how to do a podcast, I was like, oh, that's it? I can do that, I think. You know? I just, like, assumed, like, before that, I was just like, these guys must have, like, something crazy, you know, like, bunch of money to, like, start a podcast. And I'm just, like, not that expensive, I guess. But, yeah. I guess I I think part of the maybe the counter to, like, this, argument, I think, could be that I mean, the issue is that, like, tech and social media is largely owned by a lot of of just, like, a few very wealthy people. And therefore, like, they are able to control the narrative at the same time, and therefore, they develop the technology for those needs rather than the needs for, like, organized communities. You don't have, like, social media built for communities, if that make like, real communities that, like, yeah, that, like, sustain themselves without, you know, needing to be a giant corporation or something like that. And if that were to be found, that were to be created, and that would be a step in this step in the right direction. I think there's also, like, the double issue of, like, like, sometimes I notice there are people who do really good work as far as, like, building great technology for democratizing or, like, decentralizing this and that. But because people don't have the social relationships or, like, that's not, like, the default way that they relate to people, they don't know how to use it or, like, their their market is very small because even though it's, like, we should all be like this, we should all be more democratic, more decentralized, whatever else, but, only, like, a select few group of people actually, like, make the effort to do that in their lives. The default is always kind of, like, individualized, atomized, you know, people in in in the market competing with each other to be to be Think Boys on Twitter or whatever. Like me. Me
too. Yeah. No. No. Absolutely. I mean, it's I I I don't know. Like, that's the nature of
power. Gotta come up with something magical to explain this or else, you know, know know what to do.
Yeah. I mean, that's the nature of how power moves and shifts and its relationship with, culture or cultures of how things are technology or otherwise, how things are co opted by just the dominant cultural force or or power or whatever. Like, I think these patterns are pretty consistent. But I think to your point, you know, I think that's part of why we're seeing this narrative emerge around how social like, big social media feels like it's collapsing. It doesn't work anymore. People are rejecting it, whether it's, like, go outside, touch grass, or, you know, a lot of what Yancey has been talking a lot about, the dark forest theory, where it's like the decided rejection of, like, big, social platforms and and, like, network building and going decidedly, like, very small and niche and private enclosed, where you can preserve, the integrity of said community and how you're able to create and and distribute and proliferate messages within a safer closed environment. Right. But, again, pros and cons to that too. It's like there's massive pros for all the reasons we're saying, but the cons are, like, are we creating new forms of echo chambers where groups that aren't, as knowledgeable or educated or whatever on a certain thing are now stuck Mhmm. In that place and not able to grow beyond that. So that feels like the next era that we're kind of, like, barreling towards is how do you then do the reverse? Like, how do you break those echo chambers, that people are creating for them themselves and the the social groups around them, but we'll see.
Yeah. Yeah. So you also talked a bit about this this phenomena of the rise of pseudo skeptics. I guess that that would be people like, I don't know, like Joe Rogan or, like, I don't know who else you wanna you wanna mention. But, do you wanna explain this a little bit? Because, yeah. I mean, it just if I, like, go on on YouTube or whatever, like, fucking platform, you know, like, I constantly get pushed, you know, these types of people, I feel. And it just seems it it just seems kinda, like, kinda bizarre that it's so, like, normalized, this this type of, thinking and where these people go. And, like, you know, I'm not saying that, like, if they're wrong about a thing that makes them, like, terrible people and I don't even think, like, they know that they're think that they're doing anything, like, necessarily nefarious, but just, like, the way they are is just, like, great for social media, for staying on, like, platforms and such. But you said this you pulled this quote from Naomi Klein that I think was really, really key in how, yeah, I feel I feel this way as well that, like, much of the allure of, like, these kind of people is that they they get the facts wrong, but often they get the feelings right, which I think explains a lot of, like, the rise of in my view, the rise of the rights, the rise of fascism is, like, their for me, their their their facts are very wrong, but they're really good at capturing the feeling for a lot of people. And that's something I've really I've really struggled with. Like, how do we how do we, like, rightfully portray, like, the feeling that everyone has? Because that's ultimately what people respond to. It's, like like, it's not the facts, unfortunately. It is, like, really the feeling.
Yeah. Totally. I mean, it's 100% it kinda goes back to all the examples we've been talking about and and just magical thinking at its core. Like, this is an irrational behavior, not a a a rational one. And it's it's it's not even specific to politics. It's, like, everything as as as us as human beings and how our brains are wired and why we are pulled towards certain things and and why we make the decisions or behave the way that we do. And it's also marketing one zero one. Like, if you look at the biggest brands, like, a lot of why they have grown to the cultural status that they've grown to has only really to do with irrational reasons versus rational ones. It's really not about the product. It's not about the feature benefits, whatever. It's really about these, like, narratives and almost mythologies that we build around on these things. Completely irrational, but it's like, that's what we as human beings are, like, pulled to, like, stories, narratives, and the the feelings. So with, pseudoskeptics or pseudoskepticism, you know, it it's really the positioning of kind of, like, you need to question everything. Like, you need to be skeptical of everything. But at its core, it's still actually not teaching you how to question things. It's really telling you what to believe. So it's like Right. Some kind of ideology coded as, like, a an open question. Right. Right? And I think the the the juxtaposed differences is, like, more true, like, scientific skepticism is, you know, you're trying to validate things through some kind of objective empirical evidence. You're trying to remain open minded and just, like, receive facts. You know, you would consider new evidence as it's presented. There's some kind of, like, self awareness of your own bias or whatever against a hypothesis or whatever. And there's, like, this constant search and investigation and curiosity to just, like, challenge yourself to keep learning more. Right? And I think with pseudoskepticism, like, a lot of these things are framed in a similar way, but it's still pushing you towards an answer. Like, it's it's like you you have to doubt the validity of everything. Like, question everything. Be very cynical. Like, you must believe this despite other people, like, challenging your way of questioning. It's just very, like, fixed and and, like, predetermined beliefs or or biases. And and when presented with, like, a new question, it's just, like, constant denial. Like Mhmm. No. So I think, you know, you mentioned some others before, but when you look at, like, Tucker Carlson, it's like so much of how he talks about things is, like, you need to question reality, the truth, the media. Right? Or, like, Andrew Tate. It's like, you can't trust the matrix. Question everything. Like, the the framing of these narratives resonates so well right now because it really taps into, I think, what we've been talking about this whole time, which is I think everyone's really feeling like, is it real or fake? Like, you can't trust anything. And I think these narratives are, like, very sticky and contagious and attractive because it really meets the moment of what people are feeling. But I think the huge caveat is, like, at its core, it's still, like, you can't trust anything or anyone except for me. Right. You know? I think that's, like, the that's the footnote that's that, like, where all this kind of falls apart.
Right. Right. Right. I'm here to do the skepticism and thinking for you. Question it, and I'll answer. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. I guess I mean And and even for even for me, like, in doing a lot of this research and, like, writing this, I had to keep stepping back and check myself of, like I'm, like, saying, like, question. Like, I'm doing the thing. Like, I'm saying question everything. Yeah. But try to be really careful about what we were saying before. Like, everything's a choice. Like, I made choices about what I'm editing in and out. Right? And trying to have it's nothing's perfect. Like but trying to have that self awareness and, like, checking myself going through this process of what is the best way of, like, presenting this that helps people learn the questions to ask rather than, like, just believe what I'm telling you. Almost like trying to, like, present my own ideas in ways of, like, don't trust this almost. It's like it's a weird
juggling act. Mhmm. Mhmm. So, I mean, for you, I guess, is this like like, do we fight this phenomenon? Like, should should we fight it, or should we I think sometimes it's like, do we just, like, then use the same tactics, but for for good, like like magic. You know?
Yeah. I mean, I think for a lot of people, how they're meeting this really hard moment is is a number of things, but it's like one is magical thinking. Like, that is the that is the way of dealing with this, which is not necessarily the the right or best answer. I think another one is, like, this growing nihilism of just, like, we we know that this is true, but we also embrace that we can't control it. So fuck it all. Like, let's just go nuts and have a good time. That's an option. I don't know that there's one first of all, I don't know that I have all the answers. Second of all, I don't know if there's one, like, silver bullet answer either. I think a lot of it starts with just general awareness in education, kinda like what we were talking about before. Even in not seeing these historical and, like, human patterns, it's really easy to just see what's right in front of us and be like, this feels so crazy. Yeah. Like, why is this happening? But I think when you zoom out, you're it becomes more clear that even though it doesn't change what's happening, it helps to, like, feel almost a little bit more control of at least I understand why this happened. It's actually not new. It's not that unique. And I think it also hopefully starts to build empathy with other people where everyone who's saying wild shit is maybe not just, like, a stupid idiot on the Internet and actually is, like, trying to deal with how you make sense of and regain control over things that we're all dealing and struggling with. Because I think the the default or the status quo is, like, everyone's a fucking moron, so you should dunk on them. Like, that's that's kind of, like Yeah. Where we're at. I don't think that fixes anything.
Unfortunately Everyone's an idiot, but And
no. Yeah. Well, that goes back to the the Dunning Kruger effect. But, you know, I think, like it's like, how do we how do we go upstream in education, which is super hard because I think education is being totally, like, pulled apart right now. But if you look at places that are not The US, like in Finland, for example, they're doing an awesome job of how they're teaching, like, grade school kids how to fact check and, like, deal with misinformation. And so they're, like, training people super young kinda like what I was saying. It's like, how do you ask the right questions and, like, teach for curiosity rather than, like, telling you the answers, which I think we're quite bad at here. And you see that in, you know, Finland, their I don't know what the index or, like, point of measurement is, but, like, their ability to sift through misinformation is, like, quite high comparatively to other countries. Mhmm. And a lot of that has to do with education system and and starting super young. I think also, you know, to the point about, skepticism and this, like, magic analogy, there's the history of, like, magic is super fascinating of what we were talking about before. Like, it's it's all about how you apply the skills, not the skills themselves and for what intent. And all like, so many of the most famous magicians from Houdini to, like, James Randi or whatever, they not only, like, performed for entertainment, but they were also really fundamental to, like, forming and growing these movements of scientific skepticism and being extremely proactive about through writing and teaching and even, like, speaking at com Congress to debunk, like, a lot of the things that were happening with conspiracy theories, some of these spiritualism movements. And when I look at that to how are, like, magicians or illusionists of today, content creators, people who create, you know, new technology products and AI, whatever, as, like, the the proxy, the behaviors are very different. It's like, how do we obscure and misdirect as much as possible to gain attention, grow a business, protect the bottom line, whatever. Right? Like, the behaviors are very different. And I think in knowing that, it's like, what is our responsibility as, you know, our modern illusionist or whatever and then how we use media technology, whatever. You know, it's it's not just, like, projecting it into these other systems that could be better, but also our our individual choices. Kinda like as I was saying, even, like, writing this is like, am I am I taking my own medicine and putting this out into the world? But I think having that self awareness in the line of questioning is important.
Yeah. I think there could maybe go a long way in, like I'm just teaching teaching people, you know, like, how to do a sleight of hand type of type of tricks almost. Like, I don't know. I I kinda sometimes think, like, some of the right ways to, like, teach people is to, like, put yourself in the shoes of someone who tries to trick people, who, like, wants to, you know, divert people's attention, like, in some way. Like, putting yourself in those shoes, I think, you know, well beforehand, like, by simulating such a thing in, like, a safe environment, when you get exposed to it, it becomes very, very obvious because you you already know the tricks of the trade. So, yeah, I think to me, that's kind of what I'm getting out of, like, education is almost like, learn the tricks of the trade in in in many ways. Yeah. Totally. I mean, it's You may be angry when you go to magic shows, but, you know
Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's like there should be standard texts, you know, like Marshall McLuhan understanding media. Like, there should be, like, a baseline understanding that everyone has because we're all using these things. Like, they're all in our pockets at this point. Yeah. But there's an we've not been armed with the the tools and knowledge to fully understand. Yeah.
Yeah. Thank you so much for coming up on the hour. I really appreciated the talk. The piece is called Magic Online exclamation point, on Nick's Substack. I'll put links there in the show notes. Yeah. Is there maybe you can leave people with a last word, on where they can follow you and keep up with your work?
Sure. Yeah. At Nick Susie on on, all social platforms and dot substack is where, this this essay and others are too. But thanks so much for having me on. This was awesome. Yeah. Of course. I really appreciate it.