How to Build Community in Crypto with Beth McCarthy
While at Devcon 2024 I spoke to Beth McCarthy, program director of Funding the Commons which I also spoke at in Bangkok about our progress on building on-chain post-capitalism with Breadchain Cooperative. Beth is also my co-author for the Katabasis crypto science fiction series and we spoke together at Devcon about the meme power of capital and why it's bad. We discussed Beth's suggestions for building community when things are so online, the importance of in-person events, and her experience...
Top Keywords
No salient keywords identified yet for this episode.
Transcript
We recently started a sci fi series called Catabasis Together, which you should check out if you haven't already.
My best friend in law school was really trying to convince me to use the law school's servers to mine Bitcoin, which I definitely should have
agreed to do. Half the people here wouldn't wouldn't continue to be here if they weren't making, like, nice friendships and meeting cool people and more people that they're able to connect with in a in a deeper way.
We do this for free, like, because we care so deeply about this community, and you guys are getting hackathon prizes in the short term and making all these meaningful connections in the long term. Seeing these people in person that I usually don't ever, you know, that I've only seen online, like, I didn't even know what that person looks like because they have a cartoon avatar or, you know, somebody that you talk to every day. But seeing them in person, you realize that they're a fun and silly person and it's completely different from being, you know, this where they could be an AI bot. Can we out coordinate,
you know, the traditional system to create the new.
We feel like we're asking our parents to, like, give us permission to, you know, go,
like, have a sleepover together, and then we're gonna have so much fun doing this. Hey, guys. What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for Dev Con twenty twenty four. I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person. Dev Con itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon. So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and blockchain socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist. Alright. Hello again. You're listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast. I'm here at Defcon in Bangkok, in 2024, and I am in a set that is so nice and so much higher production value than I'm ever gonna have in my life. And so we're having, you're lucky enough, to be in this series, of much higher production value. But, yeah, for this interview, I am speaking to my collaborator and coauthor, Beth McCarthy. We recently started a sci fi series called Together, which you should check out if you haven't already. And, yeah, I wanted to speak to her about some of her experience in experience design, and her work, as well, elsewhere. She is currently the program director of Funding the Commons, and many more things have been involved in a long time. So, yeah, I think what we can do is we can start. Beth, I'd love if you could introduce yourself, who you are, what got you into crypto, how long ago it was, and the the story that brings you here today.
Hi. So, yeah, really excited to be chatting here in, this beautiful space. So I'm Beth McCarthy. As Josh mentioned, I'm currently working as program director at Funding the Commons, which is the culmination of seven years in crypto, moving around a lot in the ecosystem and the different corners related to DAO governance and refi and now public goods and, this continually evolving landscape. I first came into crypto, 2017 when I was, working, with, this PR firm that I cofounded back then, and, we are working with a large range of emerging technologies. I was always super aware of crypto. My best friend in law school was really trying to convince me to use the law school's, servers to mine Bitcoin, which I definitely should have agreed to do. But, it took four years after that for me to be convinced that it wasn't, a landscape where you only had to deal with, annoying tech bros mansplaining to you and, just 90%. And, yeah, became super excited with, some different clients that I had who caused me to look into this intersection of, open source software, game theory, and, yeah, people nerding out about, building, like, decentralized infrastructures. So, yeah, I would, like, immediately fell in love and, started cofounding a hackerspace with, my friend and, yeah, have been nerding out ever since, basically.
Yeah. So I think what's really interesting is that, you know, I think, you more than, like, a lot of people that I know have been kind of, like, experiencing firsthand many of the, let's say, evolutions and trends in the crypto space as they happened. If you were involved with, for example, DAO Stack, which is like a very early DAO project, many years ago, in Refi and elsewhere. And so, yeah, I think it's you I I whenever we go to these events, always seem to have many different friends from many different places, from your time, working in the crypto space. And so now you're, working as a program director, of Funding the Commons, and you yeah. I think you you put a lot of, love and, yeah, labor in your work, to to pull off really great events at Funnyly Commons. And so what I wanted to talk about a bit is experience design and kind of, like the way that you go about or have gone about, yeah, designing experiences for people at events and also, you know, creating communities. What are some of the things like in the crypto space that you find in particular about it that you have enjoyed or you found, as challenges or, like yeah. How do you go about, creating, like, healthy healthy communities in the crypto space?
So super important question that I wish people were speaking about more or there's a core of us who have been doing this work, since the beginning that, yeah, have been, supporting each other throughout this whole time. But, yeah, there's this meme, I think, from lion, the witch, and the wardrobe or whatever where it's like, I was there when the old magic was written or whatever and it you know, as many of these projects have evolved and gone through an entire life cycle, then it's really really interesting to be some someone who was there at the very beginning, with, projects like common stock and token engineering, for example, where it was just a few of us in a room and now, our friend, you know, has run an entire PhD thesis, like, following them over many years, and, it's really interesting to see some evolutions. I mean, I don't know. At the point that we're at now, it almost feels like a lot of the evolutions have gone all the way back to a cycle of a starting point state where we are still facing the same issues of not having enough funding, not having enough, ability to staff people and, keep, you know, keep going as, in the state of abundance that we're always working toward. And so, yeah, it's a question that I ask myself. We get asked a lot, like, why stay in this space when it continually has all of these challenges? And I would say that I, the factors are, number one, like, the interdisciplinary passions that people have for so many different, types of work from, you know, protocol designers to governance nerds to people that are really dedicated to this anthropological aspect and, of course, the entire world of people exploring financialization, that is really interesting. So, yeah, I would say this cultural aspect and the diversity of the community.
Yeah. So, I mean, the, one of the things that I would think is quite difficult in the crypto space. So, like, I've been to countless number of events in the crypto space in my life. Some of them are better than others, others, of course. Some of them I've been to where it was very clearly just kind of like a, a shill fest of basically, you know, people paid money to sponsor an event so that they can speak in front of people, so the event organizers can maximize the amount of money they can get out of it and such. But, of course, the and then many of the the much better events in which I have a much better experience with are the ones where, that is not the focus. Even though crypto does have this, like, big focus on financialization, the events or the the types of experience and, like, communities that, of course, that I've gained the most out of are the ones that are obviously and, you know, I don't really get into very financialized ones, but are the ones that are not so financialized and are actually, like, taking on and taking seriously, some of the the larger problems within the crypto space that we're trying to actually solve. But, yeah, I guess, how do you, how do you approach the space given the kind of, like, highly financialized nature of it?
Do you mean with regards to experiences and around events in general? Right. Right. So, you know, I never set out to be a person whose job is define designing events. Like, it was something that, kind of came to me through, yeah, my interest in design research and, community development and in our space where every, every interaction is usually so digital and people are dispersed all across time zones, then it ends up being a really important way for people to connect and interact both within their internal teams and also within the wider ecosystems that they're interacting with. So, for me, thinking about how to use these events as a design space for connection and also for, a really intentional research practice around what are the ways that you can, I guess, like, create the space for meaningful connection and for the types of outcomes that are difficult to measure and having this continual question of, like, what is the purpose of what we are doing as an organization, like, currently with Funding the Commons, also with the other projects that I have worked with in ecosystem development, like, what does it mean to, create a space that is useful and impactful and also, you know, the interest that is really important to me and my creative practice, which I definitely view this work as being? How do you curate a program of, talks and other types of, interventions and initiatives that, weave together a cohesive narrative on all the diverse topics from, you know, digital infrastructures that serve as a public good to, like, work in the climate space that serves as a public good in a totally different way, you know, in the context of my current work at Funding the Commons. So really, having this, understanding of the narrative design and how that gets brought to life in this, yeah, like, four d experience of, interacting together.
Yeah. So I think the, the, because, like, so much of our interactions in crypto are mediated online, it means that I think it, like, makes physical events, like, pretty important in the sense of or, like, physical meetups being, like, quite important as a place of where people remember each other as being, like, actual physical actual physical humans sometimes and not just, like, avatars. And so, yeah, I think, particularly, I think, interesting in in, like, being in this, like, very weird space where everyone is, like, they get they get very close to each other, you know, because they, like, rally around the same memes or rally around, like, our particular, like, niche interest. It also makes, like, meeting in person is like, like, wow, you're real. Let's let's hang out. And there's, like, this certain closeness to it. But also at the same time, I think what it means is that, like, you know, some people, like, don't necessarily understand, like, the like, I think if if someone is into into the crypto space, like, purely from a, like, deep deep interest in, like, purely technical technical things, and it's hard to appreciate the fact that maybe they are, making connections with other people that are quite important and that the fact that, like, half the people here wouldn't wouldn't continue to be here if they weren't making, like, nice friendships and meeting cool people and more people that they're able to connect with in a, in a deeper way. So I think, like, the the, like, you know, you lay in this crossroads of, like, having been in the space for a long time, knowing a lot of people, through all those experiences and therefore making the the the connections, between people that that that ought to be made that maybe not everyone is particularly saying, which is something I I appreciate.
Yeah. And it's interesting to, mention it like that because there was this one time in 2020, I think, you know, during the time when events could not happen where, people were going on a rampage on Twitter against, my friends and I at ETH Berlin, which, you know, as anyone who is watching this probably knows, very popular, conference and also Schelling Point for a bunch of side events that have been really meaningful for a lot of people and also really impactful over time if you are to apply apply the types of measurements that can really only be understood over time, such as, you know, launch of test nets that were used for, you know, x amount of purposes that, were popularized there or connections with founders or, connection with funding streams, like, all, you know, all these things that were exciting for people at the moment and has had a deep impact on the space. But as a decentralized space, like, there's no one, you know, measuring that overall. And, I now there's an increasing interest slash better suggestion of, by, yeah, impact reporting. And I do think that this is super important. Yeah. Anyways, this folks were attacking us on Twitter because they were saying, that we were freeloaders for on the tech community by organizing getting hackathon prizes in the short term and making all these meaningful connections in the long term. And it was super disheartening, especially when we, you know, were not able to even do our practice of organizing events together because it was during COVID. And, I think about that a lot in a, you know, kind of way of being galvanized through, like, well, that you know, those people on Twitter don't even know what they're talking about. And, like, every time people tell me, you know, consistently how meaningful it is, interacting at these events and having the relationships that come out of it, then it's kind of like, see, we are doing something useful and definitely not reloading.
Right. So Is there anything else that you, like, would like to share about, like, your practice that you would like to get across to people?
So I mentioned a little bit about, about, the fact that, engaging in experience design is, a creative practice for me. I think it's really cool to hear, more and more folks in the space mentioning places of, ritual and ceremony as kind of intentional connecting, and I think that is a huge part of it. During our talk earlier today, then I was talking a little bit about, Walter Benjamin's concept of, bit about, Walter Benjamin's concept of, lived experiences and, something that I think is really meaningful in this idea, which is that there's a certain amount of, tacit knowledge and deep understanding of concepts and interrelations that comes out of, you know, having, yeah, going through these lived experiences. There's also another element of it of the collective memory and collective intelligence that gets created through these experiments and how those are trans transmitted by the storytelling that happens, and also by, you know, the repetition of hearing from the same people as, their story continually gets updated and the deepening of relationships that come across context. And, I mean, you know, he was definitely not talking about experience design, but I think, you know, that it was, very powerful for me to read this concept and be like, that is what we're talking about when we're talking about experience design. On one hand, you know, it is the choreography between different speakers and the deep intentionality between bringing together intersectional topics and stuff, but it's also, the, like, embedding of a shared experience that extends beyond just these particular events and is the experience of existing in the ecosystem together.
Right. I think so do we want to talk about the our presentation this morning? Yeah. We can touch on it. We can touch on it. Yeah. So also I forgot to mention context is that we also did a, a presentation this morning, called Memecraft, where we were kind of exploring a bit the yeah. Not only what what memes are, but the effects of memes and what are the potential, the good sides and the bad sides of of those memes. But the kind of thing that I really liked that you, you know, that you added into the presentation is that there's this, like, dynamic between these two German words that I don't remember at all from, I think, Walter Benjamin, of, like, the tacit knowledge of actually experiencing something, and I kind of understood the other one as kind of, like, the abstract understanding of of it or like the but from a at a surface
level. Is that kind of like is that how you describe it? I mean, that is my understanding of, you know, the interplay between these concepts. So on one hand, it's the, like I mean, for example, today, we're finishing up the last day of DevCon and, the experience of being here, reconnecting with people that, you know, some folks that we repeatedly see over and over, both in the conference and in regular life, but some people, you know, that we have not seen for, years that resurface there. And the, the really, stark contrast between having these, moments and, what do people call it? The hallway track where, you know, you're standing and catching up and, like, all of the pattern matching that happens and, just, yeah, knowledge, that comes together of, like, you know, this person is always walking with this person, so they fit in the relational graph this way, you know, receiving different updates about everything that's happening and that's completely different than following those same people on crypto Twitter and seeing people posting updates that are completely mediated by, like, you know, the medium of being online and something that's a conversation that continually comes up, and is also something I feel strongly about. Like, there's just such a difference between interacting in person and, not only having all the affective, benefits of, you know, body language and co presence, but also the fact that that person is existing with you in time and space and isn't someone that's pinging you because it's 8AM for them, but you're about to eat dinner and just, you know, being on the same affective wavelength and sharing the inner subjectivity of, yeah, being able to have even if it's just for a moment before people bombard
you again in the hallway, like, the full attention to download with each other. Yeah. I mean, definitely, this event feels like it kind of feels like being on a college campus, but where you yeah. But except rather than, like, university, it's just like, we're all into this weird crypto thing. So yeah. And there's definitely always, for me, it's a it's I mean, DevCon, it's been really nice, but it's also been, like, so overwhelming with, like, the amount of people that I see walking out hallway. Like, oh, I know them. I know them and them. And then like trying your best to like, make a connection with everyone as you can but not always getting to do as much as maybe you want to. But at the very least you get this like there's definitely a difference, you know, when you're talking to someone that you have only communicated via, you know, DM on Discord or Twitter or whatever else. It's a completely, different experience when you, like, know this person a little bit more personally, and you know that they are, like, flesh and bone. And that the tacit knowledge of of, like, yeah, touching them is like, I think it's it's part of this, it's basically in some ways, like, creating creating a scene in in some respects, in which a scene I mean, there are definitely online scenes, but I feel like, there are limitations to those and there's like a, you know, a lot of importance in, knowing people physically, which is a difficult thing to do whenever it's such a global or, like, international type of thing, this whole crypto stuff, you know.
Definitely. And it was interesting because I happened to be sitting there while the Ethereum Foundation folks were interviewing some different people, and, there was one question that everyone kept answering the same. And I was like, it's so cool that this is a collective the same, and I was like, it's so cool that this is a collective experience, which is, like, what has been the most exciting for you, about DevCon? And everyone was, like, seeing these people in person that I usually don't ever, you know, that I've only seen online. Like, I didn't even know what that person looks like because they have a cartoon avatar, or, you know, somebody that you talk to every day. But, seeing them in person, you realize that they're a fun and silly person and it's completely different from being, you know, this where they could be an AI bot and the thing they Just
reminding ourselves of of those things. Yeah. Would you, like to share any, like, I'm just curious if you if you have any, like, hot takes when it comes to, like, experience design in in crypto. Do you have any that you would like to share to round it off?
I mean yeah. Hot takes about that specifically? I don't know. I'm having trouble of think I'm having trouble thinking about that. I have a lot of hot takes in general. But about that particular topic, I would say,
You can pick one in general if you prefer.
Yeah. I mean, well, it would be very, again, a totally different direction. I guess my you know, the hot take about experience design, I guess, would just be that, you know, it it is very important for people to realize how much effort and care, you know, not just in terms of booking catering or, thinking about, pleasing sponsors or, you know, making partnerships in various ways, like all, you know, there's such a massive amount of labor that goes on to doing this work. And when people not only appreciate that part, which, like, I think people definitely are increasingly aware of, the fact that that is real work and that even for folks that, you know, might come in as a partner and help a little bit. And, they're like, it's so fun, you know, talking to people about what their panel is gonna be, but that it's also, a lot of work, you know, just keeping up with the social graph of the ecosystem and what are the, patterns that are happening and the, you know, the subtext beneath those patterns and all of this work that goes into community weaving, in a way that's really effective. So
Yeah. No. I think that's actually that is something I wanted to, like, actually bring in slightly that I thought was, that I think is really interesting is that when it comes to the importance of, community weaving or connecting communities is basically, like, it's trying to answer the question that I think a lot of crypto people, like, kind of get at, which is, like, can we out coordinate, you know, the traditional system to create the new? And I think that's a it's it's an open question. And part of the, like, variables in this in this, like, coordination game is, like, will will capital be, like, the the the main incentive for everything forever? Even in the crypto space, just like it is in the traditional financial world, which is like, you know, part of the problem. Therefore, we would not be creating anything all that different. And so it's it's it's I think it's, you know, the art of community weaving and and and which involves the creation of events, but it involves many things, not just that, means that, like, we need to coordinate with one another, or, like, out coordinate capital, that we need to coordinate on our values that are not solely based on, you know, getting rich, basically.
Yeah. Definitely. And also reframing, like, I think the excitement and enthusiasm of collaborating together on this stuff, and by this stuff, I mean, on experience design, on creating special experiences together, whether that's the container of a longer residency, the complexity of a pop up village, iterating on new events like the Design Jam that we, debuted this week or, all of the, curation work that goes into, like, flagship conference. The factor in all of those is, the feeling that happens, you know, sometimes with partners and collaborators where we're like, we don't feel like we're, you know, have it like, we're, going into some kind of dry strategic meeting, you know, asking for sponsorship or something. We, like, we feel like we're asking our parents to, like, give us permission to, you know, go, like, have a sleepover together, and then we're gonna have so much fun doing this stuff and, like, talking all night and, like, you know, that feeling of being so excited to connect and spend time together and then being like, okay. We'll figure out the money for that because we wanna have this special experience and, you you know, just look forward to making something that's really cool for people and that we also really enjoy because it's so rewarding seeing people, yeah, gain, like, meaning and also, education about topics they didn't know and just a deeper understanding of the space and where they sit in the space.
Yeah. So it's super nice. Yeah. Nice. Well, thanks so much. Is there maybe just the last thing if you have any any plugs? I guess the main plug is the sci fi.
You should definitely read our sci fi, which is a satirical take on network states, which still up in the air. Is it a, creation of a state apparatus or an excuse for people to hang out? So one thing that we are exploring. And, yeah, what other plug as well? We will have funding the commons in, Switzerland early next year as well as in San Francisco, and we're also exploring some really cool residencies as I mentioned. So look out for those and, yeah. And on Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. Ontology machine on Twitter if you want to nerd out about ontologies or related topics.
Alright. So Well, thank you so much.