EP 19: 'The Other Side'
A local police department is trying to change perceptions between officers and youths -- via unscripted, uncoached, one-on-one conversations broadcast out to the world in a high-quality web series. Real moments, both candid and heavy, drive each episode of "The Other Side," which seeks to not only humanize police officers but also highlight how simply talking eye-to-eye at a relaxed pace can build trust, rapport and understanding in a world where distrust, fear and misconception can run wild. On this episode, we talk with the Fuquay-Varina (North Carolina) Police Department and video production company Amazing Studios about how the series came to be and how it's been received around town. Show notes: Full episodes of 'The Other Side' - http://www.fuquay-varina.org/783/The-Other-Side-Videos Homepage - www.otherside.tv Fuquay-Varina Police Department on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/fvpolice/ Amazing Studios - http://amazingstudiosinc.com Past episode, 'Restarting the Law Enforcement Conversation' - https://soundcloud.com/municipalequation/ep-06
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Transcript
On this episode of Municipal Equation. It's gotta be authentic.
And that was our whole thing from the very beginning was we may ask some tough questions. We wanna make sure both parties understood that there was gonna be tough questions. Questions. It was how candid they were, how honest they were, and it's about building trust. We have more in common than we have differences. And I tell my officers all the time, build those relationships.
A local police department is giving a stage and spotlight to human interaction between people who sometimes feel significant misunderstanding around each other. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation from the North Carolina League of Municipalities, episode 19. Hey, listener. I've got a question for you. What would you say are the top three social conflicts in The United States in the past three to five years? I'll give you five seconds. Alright. Well, you might have been biased by the preview to this episode or the title or the lead up discussion, but regardless, I have a feeling that most of you would have chosen anyway the conflict between law enforcement officers and communities there's more to serve. Maybe it's always been the case that there's been some level of anxiety between the police and classes of the public. But obviously, it's a bigger news story over the past few years. And let's just call it out. Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, Eric Garner in New York, Tamir Rice in Cleveland, Freddie Gray in Baltimore, among many others, tragedies that, whatever the circumstances of the case, have fueled tensions and at times caused it to spill over. The conversation persists, and has us wondering how to change it. Well, conversations are the key here. You've got people on either side of the issue saying the other side doesn't really understand what it's like to be them. And I'm generalizing here, but I'm talking about kids who tell police that it can feel tense, intimidating, or scary to be a person of color or a youth in general in the presence of law enforcement. Then you have cops who say that the high profile cases in the news don't tell a fair story about law enforcement either. That police are people, just like the rest of us. They feel fear, they have to make big and quick judgements. Bottom line, there's always another side, and the only way to determine whether you're on board with it is to hear it out. What can happen though is that this frank two way dialogue can sometimes bring each side to talk about the human in each side. Just getting to know each other as people and letting that by itself soften some of the tension and educate. And that's what's happening in the North Carolina town of Fuquay Varina.
What is one piece of advice you'd have for a police officer? Never judge a book by its cover. That's one thing that I've I've always wanted to tell a cop. Like, I know I've been through it once. I was in Target with my cousin and my brother, and we had on hoodies. I don't know if it was because because of my skin or because I had a hoodie on, but they had their security guards follow us around the store. What people are afraid of is because they're gonna get judged by what they look like and not what they really are. And we're all guilty of it. If no one can say that they didn't judge a book by its cover. Like, I don't think there's anyone in the world that say that can truly say they've never done that. And that's one thing that I would advise every every policeman to do. Mhmm. It's never dug me put by a scarred. For sure. What is one piece of advice you would have for me?
I'd say probably the exact same thing. You can't assume that the police are are there to arrest someone. You can't assume that what you hear on the media is is every police officer. You can't, you know, make me earn the title of bad guy. Come to me like a normal person and realize that I'm just a regular guy.
That's a clip from a web series, a video series that's getting a lot of attention. It's called The Other Side, and each episode or webisode is an unscripted conversation between a cop and a kid. The younger guy you heard in the clip is a high schooler named Trayvon, and he's talking to Sergeant David Taylor of the Fuquay Varina Police Department. The video's got all kinds of serious and lighthearted moments, all real, no script. The only lines they're reading are the questions, but the answers are off the top of their heads. Not everything is so heavy. Matter of fact, the debut episode from January 17 is between Lieutenant Wayne Sorensen and an eight year old girl named Olivia, who asks adorable but great questions about law enforcement.
What is the scariest thing you have ever done?
The scariest thing. Well, back when I was a police officer and I was pretty new, a lot younger looking. I got You look into me. I got oh, thank you. You're a sweetheart. No wonder you're with me. I got into a police chase and that chase was crazy. It was crazy driving around in the car and the guy gets away. Can you believe this?
Yeah. No.
And he gets away, but you know what? He got caught like eight months later. Guess where? For a long time. Guess where he got caught? Mhmm. All the way out west. So he kept driving and driving and driving until he got all the way to the East to the West Coast. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. He made it that far. He made it that far. For some food and then it'll keep on going. Yeah. You would think, What's it like being a kid?
Well, fun at times, but when I have to do a math test, you know you know what I mean.
The dreaded math test.
Yep. But I'm pretty good at it. Are you ever afraid of the people you have to arrest?
Well, every call is different.
This is all the result of a partnership of sorts between the Fuquay Varina Police Department and a private video production company called Amazing Studios. So just recently, I drove out to the Fuquay Varina Police Department to hear how the other side came to be and why.
I'm Mike Cole. I'm the president of Amazing Studios.
And I'm Laura Fonstock. I'm the chief of police for the town of Fuquay Varina.
So, when Susan told me about this, you know, I thought, all right, you know, that's a really great idea. It's a really noble idea. But you know, an idea is one thing. Execution is another. So when I checked it out, you know, I was really struck by how clean the whole thing looked and how modern it looked and how real it looked. But this isn't scripted, is it? Mike, do you wanna weigh in on that? I mean, it looks like it's a totally natural delivery.
Yeah. No. It's not scripted. The the, there was a lot of pre interviews done, by the director. He met with officers, met with the students, and then kinda paired them up based on who he felt like was gonna be a great fit, personality and just their background. Mhmm. And, but now they literally right before they walked out and sat in the chairs, they were literally handed, cue cards or, recipe cards with the questions that they had to ask the other person. So they had no idea. And the whole point is we wanted authentic answers. We didn't want rehearsed. We didn't want, you know, scripted type, talking points. We wanted just for people to be real
with each other. Yeah. So so how, you know, how did this idea come up to you? How was it pitched, chief?
Well, we have a swearing in ceremony for one of our newest officers, and Mike was present during the swearing in. And we have a very family oriented police department here that's engaged with the community, and that's part of what we talk about and what I talk about when we bring employees on our agency about engaging with the community. And Mike approached me, sent me an email, and said, we have this idea for you. Would you like to stop by? And, naturally, I was curious. I was wondering what the funding was going to be for this particular project, but I I brought my captain with me, and I said, let's go hear him out. This sounds like it's it's gonna be something unusual and we'll be able to reach the community in a way that we hadn't thought of before.
So why why is that important to reach out in ways you hadn't thought of before? If you could just kinda set the tone for what, you know, what this kind of seeks to address. Well, you you look at the media right now, you look at the narrative throughout the country, and the perception of law enforcement.
And from Fuquay Varina's perspective, we're always seeking ways to engage with our community, to enhance our communication efforts, to enhance trust, and also build police legitimacy. Because we look at ways, particularly with the president's task force on twenty first century policing, we look at social media, we look at technology, and we look at ways to enhance communication. So by having something like this project, we thought this is a fantastic way to step off a project, to look at ways that we're communicating with youth. And we had tried things in the community. We've, been working on Coffee with a Cop. We had a unique program called Froyo with a Popo, and that was, frozen That was the name. That's great. That's right. That was having frozen yogurt with teens from the high school Mhmm. Talking about policing, talking about what to do if you're stopped by the police. Sure. So this was just another idea in an unusual format to show that police are human. We've been teens. We've been in an elementary school. Mhmm. We have children. We're moms, sisters, aunts, uncles, parents. We can show that we're human too, and it also shows that our officers were willing to listen, and so what Mike presented to us was just a fantastic way to show everyone that police officers are real.
And so, Mike, is that something you already had in mind when you presented this, or was it more just a a a production that would kinda humanize the police, but maybe not to the extent that the chief is talking about? Yeah. No. I mean, obviously, one of the things that sparked it was, you know, being a a citizen here and and seeing
the different ways they were engaging and, of course, the nature of our business. We produce content. And and we see in the out there online and on TV, there's a lot of content that is very, destructive. It doesn't help our national conversation, for both sides. And there's so much we talk at each other instead of to each other. And and so my my team is, we're we're always looking for stories to tell. And how can we, how can we engage, whatever it is and and try to in some way shift the needle, push the needle in more of a positive direction. And so after talking with the chief and seeing what they were doing, for us, it was like, this is this is a great example. And as we talked about them, you know, this is really a national conversation. And it just so happened we had an awesome example and a and a great case study, right here in our backyard with what the Fuquay police department was doing. And so it just it felt like a natural fit, and we wanted to be able to, you know, create that opportunity for not only for the officers, but also for students because sometimes they're they're being, they have perceptions. Or sometimes they have legitimate, you know, their own concerns maybe from experience we heard in Trayvon's. And we just felt like it was a great opportunity to again talk to each other, listen to each other, and, of course, they were just,
great about it. Yeah. And I love how the interviews, you know, it's it's not a uniformed official up on a podium talking down to an audience, about how tough it is to be a cop, and it's not a lecture. It's more of a conversation. It's not even totally about policing from what I've I mean, that that, you know, is the core and the theme, but,
or community tension, but it's an icebreaker. Right? It's kinda like an equalizer. It is. And it's about building trust. We have more in common than we have differences. Right. And I tell my officers all the time, build those relationships. So in a sense, this is another example of out of the car policing. I tell them it always starts with a hello. So if you get out of the car, you put your hand out and tell someone hello, by having this kind of media usage out there, this is our way of handing putting our hand out there and saying hello to our community, to the world, and Mike just made it possible for us. Because our thing is when you have a relationship,
then you know the motives are pure. You know Right. You know the intent, behind there. And when those barriers and our goal with this was to break down barriers. We wanted the officers to hear from, because they were already doing it. We were kind of one of the areas that inspired us was the coffee with a cop, and that kind of helped play a role in inspiring the direction of this piece and how we did it. So we thought, wow, this is great. And that's part of that dialogue of of just understanding each other more. Mhmm.
Well, talk a little bit more about how you found the kids, who participated in this series.
We we reached out to the principals of of the middle school, the elementary school, and the high school. And each one of them were just gung ho and and and, on board. We shared with them kind of what we were looking for characteristic wise. I mean, obviously, when you're doing this and especially with kids, it has a very high risk of failure just from the standpoint of you might not get, them to engage the way you'd hoped. Mhmm. So, you know, kinda doing some background and and and, of course, the the principals know these kids, better than probably a lot of them. And, so we we, you know, we went at it from that standpoint of just saying, okay. Who's gonna be a good fit? Who who can bring some perspective? The the principal of the high school, I mean, this was right up their alley. He said, this is great. This is one of the things they're trying to instill at the high school level about leadership and why he selected the two he did, is instilling, hey, this is part of leading. Leading is also helping to influence the conversation.
Every time I've been on camera for something that's going out to an audience, I mean, I'll admit it, I I get nervous. How do you cool people out for the camera so they're comfortable talking openly like that? I mean, was there much preparation at all or No. I mean, the first time the officers met and the students met was that morning,
chief Laura was was kind enough to to help allow the officers to go pick him up in the squad car. Mhmm. So the officer goes and and picks him up from their home, and that's the first time they meet. And the whole point was to give them time to just interact before the cameras are on, before anything else Sure. Just let them interact. It's still intimidating when you walk in a studio, when there's lights and there's cameras. And we felt like the format worked well because it immediately takes your mind off because you've got the cards, you've got the questions, and it's it makes it easier to tune and kind of block out what's happening.
But it did help when the officer went to the house, knocked on the door and said, Good morning. Are you ready to ride in the police car? And the kids absolutely loved it. Right. And that was the icebreaker in and of itself and riding together one on one. And of course, their families followed in a separate car. Sure. Yeah. But riding 101101 in the car to the location was about a twenty, twenty five minute ride, and the kids already started asking us questions and sharing. So we began that conversation in the car. So by the time we got there, some of the nervousness Yeah. Had already subsided.
So you probably film a good amount of material and then you condense it down to some of the most meaningful moments with the takeaways, you know, what goes into to each episode?
There's there's a lot that hits the hits the editing room floor. I mean, there was some really some of these interviews went on for an hour. Mhmm. There were several of them that went on for an hour, and we're trying to, you know, try to cap it at five minutes. And and even internally, there was a lot of discussion. Well, what do you leave in? You know, and a Sure. A bouncing around. Well, wait. Isn't this one more important? Or is that important? And that's why after the eight run, we've got some supplementary little stories that we're going to kinda release afterwards because we feel like they're important. Chief Laura had a great, story from her, early days, as a young officer,
and so that one will be coming out as well as some others. You know, there might be people listening to this elsewhere in other towns who think this is a great idea that they might wanna look into for themselves to improve that community conversation. What advice do you have, in terms of, you know, there might be some some people mystified by the technical aspect of it. Should we do it in house? Should we partner with somebody? I mean, what's the approach that you would recommend for anybody listening?
It really depends on what resources that you have available. We were fortunate to have this this wonderful relationship with amazing studios. I would say just it depends on what your budget is and and what resources you have. But if you do have those resources, I highly recommend participating in a project such as this because you not only learn about the teens and the young people involved in this project, but your officers will also learn something about themselves as well. So by engaging in this type of relationship with another studio, you can seek ways to show your department in another way and show your town or or community in another way as well. And I would say from our perspective,
it's gotta be authentic. You know, if they weren't already doing this, we probably would have looked somewhere else. Mhmm. So the fact that they were already doing this, this was their culture that they have instilled of this is who we are as a police department. That's the kind of stuff that we look for. So sometimes it's too easy to get focused on the technical, can we pull it off? Well, the whole point of this, and and I would encourage anyone that does it, it's gotta be authentic. And that was our whole thing from the very beginning was we may ask some tough questions. We wanna make sure both parties understood that there was gonna be tough questions. Right. And so the fact that they were already doing this dialogue, this was just another means to it. And so I I would say it's gotta start with just as as the chief has done and that is you instill that it's who you are. And then the videos become just a natural,
reflection of that. And you have to have a buy in from your employees as well. Sure. We've had these conversations occurring. We've met with students in a similar fashion, even conducting interviews in our front lobby, we had a student come in and just want to ask 20 questions for a project. I believe you had stopped by, you had seen photos on our Facebook page and saw that we were engaging in those ways, and our officers are willing to sit down with community members no matter what age to have these conversations. And they are difficult conversations given the narrative that is occurring in our country right now about policing and use of force and de escalation and having children, and what do you say when you're stopped by an officer. Those conversations need to be held, and if we can show how professional our organization is, I believe anybody can as well, but you have to have buy in from your employees. And you knew your officers were gonna be on board with this when this idea came up? Yes. Yeah. I I brought one of my captains to meet with Mike and his staff, and then we came back and and talked about it. And I said, what do you think? Do you think that our folks will be on board with this? And I had overwhelming support for this. And then when we started looking at officers to participate in the program, they were excited as well. Some of them were a little hesitant as far as revealing too much, but then when they sat in the chair, they opened up in ways that I was just I was blown away and so excited to see. I saw different things with my employees. Yeah. I'm sure they're surprised. Right? I mean, what surprises came out of this in terms of things you didn't expect to say or hear or It was how candid they were, how honest they were. You you saw true feeling and emotion from our officers, and and I participated as well, and they surprised me with some of the questions they asked, and and, just showing that emotional side, a lot of people think that officers just don't show that emotional side. Not only did I, but other officers did as well. And you see their sense of humor. Mhmm. There's a girl. Do you have a girlfriend?
No.
Oh, you smile, man. You I do not have one. I know you got one. I do not have one. So you got many then if you ain't got one.
I don't got any. Fantastic
anyway because because cops have a wonderful sense of humor. Got And I was glad that was portrayed in the video series as well. I mean, that that ends up being the bottom line, I think, is is humanizing what some people perceive as, kind of of a machine like environment. I mean, really, people view government, government entities as as kinda cold. Well, that's the title of the series,
The Other Side. It's showing the other side of the badge. What's behind the uniform? It's showing the human side of officers because, again, most of the officers participating in this series are parents, and we've all been kids. Mhmm. So you see the human side of our officers.
I think one of the one of the things that we took away that was really strong was Trayvon's, series was, you know, it was a great exchange between them to see how the impact when people rush to judgment on you. And sometimes we perceive that only well, this only affects certain group and and and I loved, how officer Taylor, responded, you know, in in the simple fact of the same thing goes back to them. Make me earn the title of bad guy, and don't just assume that I'm there to arrest. And, you know, and and for for us, I think even on set, as soon as we heard that, we're like, that's it. That's it. Hearing them both because there's, you know, and to be honest, we approached this wasn't as pro, you know, students or pro officers. We just want a dialogue. We just want dialogue to break down barriers that that keep getting put up and they don't need to be there. And so when we heard that one, we're like, that's sums it up. Seeing two people genuinely share what their experience, what they've encountered, how it made them feel because, you know, officers are not robots, and they are human. I'm a you know, I know it's gotta be tough. I can only imagine, what you endure. But at the same time, these students are are being faced. I've got, you know, two boys, one in high school, one in college, and they're being flooded with what they're supposed to think or, you know, perceptions on on different stuff. And, so it was just it was that was a moment I think as soon as we heard it, we're like, that's exactly it. That's what we were after with this.
And so how is this resonating with the public? What's the feedback been like? It's been exceptional.
Overwhelming support, excited. They're proud of this project. They're sharing it. Just fantastic feedback.
I haven't received anything negative about it. And I think that that really you know, going back to other towns, you asked the question of what it takes or what would my recommendation be. I think that's what made it so easy for us is this community. There was such a hunger. You know, because when you're diving into something like this and pretty much looking at, okay, this is gonna be a predominantly self funded project, You know, you you look and say, okay, is this is this worth diving into and and doing it? And every every corner we turn, was just met with such yes and support, from officers only, which is a part of the Bob Barker group. They were, yes, we wanna be a part of this. Capstone, a friend of mine, buddy of mine, Jeff, that owns Capstone production group who has the studio, but he lives out here in Fuquay. And he was like, yes. You know, well, my studio is available for you. So he he made a studio available for us on a Saturday. I mean, the fact that we get eight officers and eight students scheduled to line up on one Saturday. So there was just so many things. It's like yeah. And and just the overall reaction from the principals to others of a of a strong desire for this. Soon as we started talking to them about what the whole point and purpose was, everyone's like, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We need this. We need this. So community, not only on the post end of it, but pre, the support, is huge. And then, of course, now that it's gone out, you love seeing people. I I just sit at night sometimes, scroll through and and read the comments and see people reacting and going, oh, this is great. This is wonderful.
And I I'm stopped all the time. I love last week's video. That was just fantastic. Or they'll quote something in the video itself, and then we'll have another conversation based upon what was said in the video itself. So it's creating other dialogue.
Yeah, and that's what I'm wondering. Is there sort of a conclusion to this? Is it a finite series or do you see it being kind of open ended or even inspiring different kinds of conversations with different parts of the community or different parts of the local government or whatever it happens to be? Yeah. And when we started out with this, we actually our working title was based off of the the coffee with a cop,
was conversation with a cop was kind of our working title with it. And then we sat and we explored and we're like, well, if this works and this goes well, there's a lot of other areas that we need to have conversations. And it may be with government and, you know, so and so or, you know, people on different sides of the aisle on issues or whatever it may be. So, you know, we we've kinda looked at it and said this is kind of our trial to see how well it works. But we've, you know, for me, it's it's a it's always a big thing we've been blessed with a lot. And so if we can use what we've been given, with the resources of our studio to try to find other content or or continue this series in other areas to have some positive impact.
So, you know, we're definitely looking and exploring that. And that's what we're doing as well. We're always seeking ways to make that positive impact, to enhance communication. So we'll be continuing to work in the community to build those relationships, enhance trust, give opportunities for citizens to have communication with the men and women of the Fuquay Varina Police Department. We're gonna continue to do so. We're gonna have continued outreach in the schools and the community and neighborhood groups. You name it, we're gonna be there because that's that's what we're here for.
And, you know, that that might, obviously, will help, the public can, you know, maybe adjust their perceptions of police. But is there anything on the policy end, on the policing side, that could be impacted by this?
I would say not so much the policy, but training Mhmm. Finding other ways to to teach officers how to communicate.
Right.
We we see a lot of our younger officers so enthralled with technology Mhmm. That you have to encourage them to get out of the car. That's what I used the phrase earlier, out of the car policing. We encourage that to get out of the car because, well, I'm a product of a police officer as well. My dad, served the Raleigh Police Department. He was a captain there, but when he started his career, he was on foot patrol, and that was before you were issued radios, and we certainly didn't have he didn't have cell phones or anything else. So growing up, I saw that style of policing not dependent upon technology, And now as as now I'm the police chief, I see the technology. And so I try to tell the officers, combine the two, the out of the car with the technology, and communicate with the public. So if if you can enhance the way you train your personnel to communicate, to look for those ways, to make a relationship, to build that trust, that's what we're doing. And that goes along, and I and I mentioned this earlier about the president's task force on twenty first century policing. We have to change the narrative that is occurring by showing how real conversations can occur to just enhance relationships within the community. It's community policing.
Well, where can, people find the the video series online? Through Facebook, social media? Is there a website that it lands on? Or Right. It goes out on Facebook. It's on our Facebook amazing studios,
the police department, the town of Fuquay, a lot of the different entities, the Bob Barker Group, the Officers Only. They all share it out as well. It also lives on our YouTube channel. There's a series on there called The Other Side, and so all the videos are on there as well.
I'll have the link to all the episodes of The Other Side in the show notes at soundcloud.com/municipalequation.
If you'd like a teaser for what's ahead In episode eight, you're gonna find out why donuts are so popular.
Yeah. But they asked me that. That's the question all the time. We're gonna have to check back in. Yeah. That episode should be out in the March.
I'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback to this episode. You can reach out to me by email at bbrown@nclm.org, or on Twitter at muni equation. That's at m u n I equation. If you enjoyed this episode or any others we've done, we'd love to hear why in our friendly review on iTunes. Soundcloud.com/municipalequation has the links to where you can subscribe on iTunes or Google Play. We're also on all the major podcast apps. Please tell your friends and colleagues about this podcast so we can reach more people. And send us your suggestions for future episodes. We're all about finding new ideas and ways to help cities and towns be the best they can be. We're made possible by the North Carolina League of Municipalities online at nclm.0rg. This is Ben Brown. I'll talk to you soon.
And that's it. The whole slate. Cut.
Alright, guys. Let's do this again from the top. This time, no mistakes.
