EP 21: Murals Unlock a City
Sure, perspectives vary on public art. But on this episode we visit a small southern city with a ton of buy-in for art as a transformative tool -- for revitalization, community pride, local history, economic development -- all starting with publicly facilitated yet privately financed murals. And then, for our host, comes a funny coincidence. Hear what it's all about on this episode of Municipal Equation, from the North Carolina League of Municipalities. Show notes: City of Sanford - http://www.sanfordnc.net Mayor Chet Mann on Facebook (Timeline includes pics from our walking tour) - https://www.facebook.com/MayorChetMann/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE Mural Art Trail Map - http://www.sanfordnc.net/sanfordarttrail.pdf "Statewide podcast to highlight Sanford's Murals" - https://rantnc.com/2017/03/21/preview-statewide-podcast-to-highlight-sanfords-murals/ "Mann shares vision for public art" (paywall) - http://www.sanfordherald.com/news/mann-shares-vision-for-public-art/article_d23b8cc8-02b6-11e7-8eee-27564a5a5133.html "Sanford preserves its history with series of downtown murals" - http://wncn.com/2016/08/25/sanford-preserves-its-history-with-series-of-downtown-murals/ "More murals on the way in 2017" - http://welcometosanford.com/index.php/2017/01/15/downtown-murals-way-2017/ Scott Nurkin, The Mural Shop - http://themuralshop.com The Mural Shop on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/themuralshop/
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- mural 0.023
- murals 0.018
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- town 0.008
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- history 0.007
- spinners 0.006
- historic 0.006
- mister 0.006
- scott 0.006
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Transcript
On this episode of Municipal Equation. Part of the success of the mural program so far, and and I think that will continue, is it unlocks the town for people. So you move here from somewhere else, and maybe you don't know who WB Wicker is or who Link Boinking is, or maybe you don't know about glider pilots or, you know, our our railroad history. But now there are murals in there, you know, really unlocks that and makes people feel like this is my history too. This is my town too. And I think that art allows people to connect in a different way.
I can't say it any better than that. I think Kelly's right. It unlocks our city to others who aren't from here.
I can't think of a better way to say it. It's a connection. Yeah. Depending on who you ask, public art might not be for everyone or every city. But we go to a small Southern town with a ton of buy in for art as a transformative tool for revitalization, community pride, local history, economic development, all starting with murals. And then a funny coincidence. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation from the North Carolina League of Municipalities. Episode 21. Alright. So we are driving up US 1 right now. We're headed towards Sanford, North Carolina. It's in the geographic center of the state and its nickname is the Brick Capital. That's what it's known as. So I wanna hear more about that, where that comes from, some about the history of the town and, and how that's being incorporated into a public art initiative, that will maybe inspire outsiders a little bit more when they hear about a city that's known as the brick capital. So we're gonna go meet with mayor Chet Mann and learn more about that. Okay. So I'm getting into the, downtown area and, a lot of historic buildings. Looks like the DOT has done, a streetscape improvement. It's really pretty down here. A lot of old brick buildings. Met with mayor Mann along with Kelly Miller, the city's public information officer at Sanford City Hall. Then we hopped in the mayor's car to check out some of the new color that's gone up on a number of historic buildings downtown. It's a publicly driven, publicly facilitated project financed so far by the private sector to put up high quality murals, ones that portray local history with a modern stylistic approach. And it's plotted out as a walking route to where you can meander through downtown and spend time with each mural and perhaps find a reason to stop at a local business or two along the way. And it's not just some poser attempt at being artsy, not that there's anything really wrong with that. Sanford, whose population is about 30,000, does have an art history, and we'll get into that. But we had to get to my first question. Why is Sanford called the brick city or the brick capital? What's the significance of that? Well, it's interesting that you asked because, we were the brick capital of the world. For a hundred years, we produced more brick than any city in the world.
And it was because of the same thing we're trying to talk about today with our history and our heritage is we have this red clay that makes a perfect brick, but it also makes the most beautiful pottery in the world. That's right. Yeah. So there's a big pottery community in this area. That people made bricks with. There are also some incredible artists that came from there. So we're part of our public arts will be to commemorate and and, you know, make publicize more of that art history, which is really the first form of art that came to San Fran was pottery from the same clay that made a brick. So we had the, Sanford Brick Company with the Eisenhower family. We had the Perry family still with Lee Brick, and then we had General Shell and others that came in. And for a hundred years, we were the brick making place in the whole world, so we made more than anyone. Today, we're not known for that. We don't make as much bricks since the downturn and since people started going to things that own brick like the hardy plank and vinyl siding, kinda take it, took out the the brick production somewhat.
And for the duration, we're on foot to walk the mural trail properly.
So we're here? Cool. First mural's right here on the right.
Okay. Well, this is our World War two tribute mural.
That voice is Kelly, who joined us for the tour. It was,
donated to the city by muralist Chris Dalton, who is a local artist. She's a sculpturist, painter, very, very creative person.
It's a dramatic depiction of a husband in a military uniform next to his wife, presumably, who's wiping tears from her face with a handkerchief. They're standing in front of a train, one that's probably about to carry him away. And as opposed to the kind of mural that's painted directly on a building, this one was done on removable panels so it can come down and be retouched or put on a different building if it needs to be at some point. In the World War two,
the soldiers from all around, not just Sanford, they would report to the train station right behind you. And they would leave for World War two, and they would come back at this train depot station. And so the whole idea of the mural project was to commemorate our history and our heritage through art. So we've tried to capture things about Sanford's history that people would like and people wanna preserve. And so all these families came forward with the project. It had to go through the historic appearance commission and get approval, and we have more than we ever believed we'd have in interest. So all these have been privately donated by families or organizations in Sanford, and then they are approved by the Historic Appearance Commission. And this was one of the first ones. So it's commemorating the World War two. You can see she's crying because he's leaving. Mhmm. And then others are coming home or waving goodbye. And it all happened right here, and and many of our best citizens actually told us they came here on the train and stayed.
So you get a story from history, but also about what can come out of public private partnerships.
So, we go out and see who wants to, participate, and that came so easy. And then we, the city and its historic appearance commission and one of our planners, Liz Whitmore, then goes about securing the wall and getting consent, and then we are able to put the, the mural in place. And the funds are kinda raised, privately, but then the city right now is going on a, couple of fundraising drives just to create more, funds for future projects. Okay. And so it's just a true private public partnership. So it means a lot for the city that we don't have to invest all of our taxpayer funds, into these projects. We just have to make sure they're facilitated correctly
and be that, that go to party that makes it happen. The mayor said the idea came up along the sense that there should be awareness that Sanford is, quote, unquote, open for business. And so how do you do that in a way that isn't cold and boring? And if it's fun and expressive, then what anchors that back to the city and its businesses?
I knew that we had a lot of history with arts. We, have a huge following here with the Temple Theater. Mhmm. And they bring busloads of people from all around, Sanford, out of town to see these Volville type shows and Off Broadway productions that we have here. We even have a house here that house they have a house that actually keeps and puts up the, the performers and the actors. So we get a lot of Off Broadway people. Our director is a former Broadway actress. So we had this huge temple theater that's been going strong for twenty years, bringing in busloads of people. And then we had this pottery heritage where we have been making pottery starting with mister A. R. Cole, the Cole pottery, is, historically known. His works in Smithsonian Institute. His descendants are here. And from that, we've had just lots and lots of other potters who have made their home in Sanford or now in Seagroves. And so we have this pottery trail from Seagrove to Sanford, basically. And so I wanted to pull that together. And I recognize that we're not known as the brick capitol world anymore. We're the former brick capitol. So what would bring people here as a destination? And part of that was public arts. And I thought if we could tie that public art heritage together and make it more, intact, we could be a place people would want to come to visit.
A minute later, we hit a big mural of an early nineteen fifties blue race car parked on a beach. You can see the surf in the background. The car number is 90 two, and across the side of it says in bold white lettering, fabulous Hudson Hornet. Leaning on the car is its driver, Herb Thomas, a racing champion.
In '51 and '53 and is actually in the NASCAR Hall of Fame. He's one of the first inductees into the NASCAR Hall of Fame. He grew up here. So, the owners of this store that is an auto parts store were just tickled to death to put him on the wall. People love this one because if you grew up here in the fifties, man, he was one of your heroes. Okay. He's a lucky boy gone good. The beach behind him is Daytona. Do you know who painted this? Yeah. This was Scott Nurkin, the artist at Chapel Hill. Scott Nurkin did several of our murals.
Wait a minute. I know that name really well. For something that doesn't have any connection to murals or local government or Sanford or I'll get to it. Scott Nurken is a name from my past. Remember it. We'll come back to that in just a bit. Another cool feature of the Sanford Mural Initiative is that it's also carefully restoring actual historic murals in town, pre existing murals, giving them new life, new coats of paint, rejuvenation. For one, right across from the Herb Thomas mural is an old Coca Cola advertisement painted on the brick. You can still make it out, but it's really faded.
So this is a Coca Cola mural. Is there a Coca Cola tie in with Stanford? Or Yes. For a hundred and five years up until about two years ago, the Ingram family owned the Coca Cola bottling company that was located here in Stanford. And all your Coca Cola in this region, all the way up through Raleigh probably and further, came out of Sanford. So they were the bottler and distributor for a hundred and five years. And, so you're gonna see a lot of soft drink, memorabilia around town just because of their family and and the tie into the Coca Cola bottling company here. It's still here. It's out on, Hawkins Avenue. It's just owned by Coca Cola consolidated now. And so how old is this mural that we're looking at right now? It's pretty vintage. Probably 50 years or more old. Yeah. Yeah. But it's been there most of my whole life.
It it kinda makes me wonder if I mean, is there a process for or special considerations given to restoring historic murals versus painting new? I mean, a piece of history that you wanna give respect to, matching up the original colors. Is there an additional layer that kinda goes into that? Or There is quite a criteria. And so the historic appearance commission,
which is led by one of our city planners, is very vigilant on that criteria. So yes to all those questions. There is a certain style, font, color, and historic criteria to even be, awarded one, but, it does have to go through certain hoops and criteria to meet that this one will and and it has to be painted to a certain standard. So the artist doesn't get to do everything they wanna do. They have to abide by certain rules. This one will just be a refresh of an old one.
So we made the rounds to several other murals of various subject matter, including a highly detailed scene of glider pilots from World War two. They flew what were often called flying coffins because they had to navigate enemy territory under fire.
Some of these glider pilots came from Sanford. And they would they would go in behind enemy lines and drop off personnel or trucks in basically a plywood box. And it was the most dangerous job in World War two. And we had three of our sons here that did that with mister Williams and mister Perry and mister Blaylock. So those three families combined, as you see on the wall here, to, finance this, mural in in their honor. And mister Dawsonback, who's had a store here for all the twentieth century, just about in twenty first century, was happy to let him use his wall to do it. So we're on Wicker Street in a prime location with a four way stop. And this mural has really beautified. And that gets a lot of attention because it's kinda neat. And most people never even knew they were glider pilots in World War two. That's right. And we had three from Sanford, and they survived. Most of them didn't. Next came some good timing. While mayor Mann was telling me more about the public interest and the fundraising efforts, we ran into someone who's at the core of that. And we actually are out collecting donations for our big
raffle and auction we're gonna be having on maker.
This is Liz Whitmore. She's a planner for the city of Sanford. You heard her name mentioned earlier. She started telling us about a fundraising event for the downtown murals. Sponsors.
And so far, we've raised $1,500 within about two weeks towards the murals. So we're super excited.
I just got great news. The Jonesborough mural, we got the money for that. Awesome. The historical society and the family's gonna pay for it from there. So And next, we got to one of my favorite murals. It's a baseball pitcher hurling a ball at your face. It has a three-dimensional kind of action look to it. The pitcher is just below a team logo that says Sanford Spinners.
Scott Nurkin's signature was at the bottom corner. History. So we, spinning here was spinning cotton. And so back in the early twentieth century, we were known as a textile capital. And one of our best industries and still is today, we're we're still number one or two in the world in spinning polyester and cotton. We had a minor league baseball team, and they were the Sanford Spinners. And they won the championship in 1946, '47 '48. And this is a mural of mister Howard Allman who just passed away about a week before this was completed. So this was the first mural that they wanted to do, and the money came easy from Sanford contractors. And, Scott Nurkin painted this one as well. I think it's beautiful, and everyone sees it from from the road. So that's mister Almond throwing you a fastball.
Next, after passing by a newly restored Doctor Pepper mural from way back when, we got some perspective that we didn't plan on. It was great. It happened outside of a very large mural celebrating two of the important African American residents of Sanford's history. They're called visionary builders.
It commemorates, mister W. B. Wicker, who was one of our first, educational leaders. We have a school named after him, and then a l link Boykin. And you can see he was born in 1894. Mister Boykin, built many of our historic homes here, including my great grandfather's house that that still stands today, and he was known, to be one of the greatest builders in all the area, if not North Carolina back then. And it was at this mural that we ran across a local guy who was out walking. He introduced himself as Daryl Bowie.
He didn't know who we were. He just saw us as people admiring the mural, and he figured he would tell us about others nearby to go check out. I'm gonna tell you where another one is. You might miss it. Over by, Miss Wingers at Railroad Tracks. Yeah. They got one, dedicated to the,
to the veterans. If you go down here, down the street right here and go to railroad tracks by by miss Wiggins, it's it's across the street from miss Wiggins on on that side of that building that with the way that tall the last taller than that, taller than that. Tallest running over there. So I'm your mayor. I'm Chet Mann. I don't know if you know me or not. Oh.
Okay. So what do you guys think about the murals? As just as good citizens and, you know, local guys, what do you think? I think that it's upgrade.
I think it's bringing back nostalgia.
I I I like it. I mean And so when you see them, does it it makes you feel It makes me feel,
appreciative. I mean, it it it's it's bringing just like that right there. See that one right there? Mhmm. Doctor Pepper. A lot of people don't that that brings that building out. Yeah. It makes a statement. Yes. You know, it it the building was plain. Now it has some it says it says something. It it has it speaks out. Then that familiar name came up again. Yeah. Yeah. First of all, the guy that that's doing them, he's he he I I I've never seen a better artist. Yeah. He's real talented. You know, I think he needs recognition. That guy, we ought to get him a we ought to give him some kind of honor or something because he he he's he's,
he worked by us. Okay. So at this point, it's been at least ten years since the last time I spoke with Scott Nurkin, a guy I used to play music with in my past life. For a good stretch of time, the bands I played guitar and bass in played with bands that Scott Nurkin played drums in. Most notably, a band from the Triangle Of North Carolina called Birds of Avalon, who are still playing, and they are excellent.
So I found his website, sent him an email, and a few days later heard back, and we caught up on the phone. Yeah. It was a nice surprise. I think about you guys from time to time. I came across, like, an old old CD, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna pop this in. I it's so funny thinking about those times. I mean, almost almost fifteen years ago, really. And, just being young and, like, completely carefree and able to, like, not worry about money or, or or just not even money wasn't even on the register really. It's just like, let's go have fun and play music with our friends.
I knew Scott was always into art and had done plenty of artwork for, for instance, album covers, but I didn't really know about his murals, and it turns out they're all over the place. He's really prolific. The the Sanford Public Art Initiative, how did that get on your radar?
That came about, because I was doing a mural in a smaller town, close to Sanford called Carthage, North Carolina. Oh, yeah. I'm on a listserv from North Carolina Arts Council that will say this town or that town is looking for, artists to submit a proposal for such and such. Mhmm. And Carthage, this is, I guess, 2010, maybe, 2011, had put out a call for this mural to celebrate the history of the town, a mural for that. And so I answered that call, and I got selected. I painted the mural. And a woman by the name of Liz Whitmore from Sanford came by and checked it out, and she she said, oh, this is very interesting. I'm interested in bringing this kind of thing to my town. Can you help me out with that? And I actually pointed her in the direction of some of the officials of Carthage, and they helped her put together this proposal. And so she she did the exact same thing. She put out an initiative, called artists, and I was lucky to win that one as well. The very first one, which is for the Sanford Spinners. Right. I continue to submit, and, I I don't know. I've been lucky so far because I've done three, so far and hopefully some more in the future.
Yeah. And what goes into the the creation of these murals? You know, does it involve local research? Do you have to look at archive material to get inspiration, old photographs?
Absolutely. In fact, the Sanford Spinners one, they had provided a little bit of information. Obviously, there's a team that was created after World War two. They were a farm league or a tobacco league team, and they only existed for four years, I think it was. And three of those, they were tennis champions. They were and then they pulled it. Yeah. So there's, like, there's just this blip in in American history as well particularly North Carolina and even smaller, the history of Sanford. Very, very few people know about them, but they were kind of exceptional. And, so it was like just googling Sanford spinners yields you very little information. So I kinda had to dig into that pretty heavily, and there's one guy in town who was, he's sort of like the archivist for the town. He has an actual Sanford spinners uniform, which which is how I base the coloring and all that. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to get it. The the unfortunate thing is, the the pitcher who I've I've on that particular one is a guy named Howard Almond, and he, I I we couldn't find any pictures of him in his youth. There was one picture of him, but it was, like, completely in shade and turned not facing the camera. So I I I had to improvise a little bit, on that one, which is, you know, I did the best I could. His kids came by and saw it. No. As I understand, he actually saw it, a couple days before he, he passed away, unfortunately. Wow. And so on that one, that was, I got a lot of help from just people in the town. Then the the next one was the, the one the African American, figures of Sanford mural. And both of those men, everyone knew that there's two men from in that one, w b wicker, who many, many people in in Sanford know about because he was the he was this legendary educator and and, community leader and almost every kid I mean, I had many, many adults come up to me and that said during when they were kids in the sixties and fifties, they all knew him, and he was a great guy and just gregarious and very supportive. I think he passed in the sixties or seventies. I'm not sure. But, so he was and he has a school named after him there. He has a street named after him. So he wasn't super hard to find. The other guy, Link Boykin, who was this famous architect, I had to do quite a bit of research because I was I was trying to find, another figure, an addition of Wicker that was heralded throughout the African American community and was respected. And he kinda popped out really quickly because he was a son of a architect and who was kinda famous, and he went on to, sort of do a lot of planning for the town and build all these beautiful homes. But, again, sort of like the spinners, he was sort of he was kinda lost to history. Like, a lot of people don't know about him. And, many, many people would come up to me during the painting of that and ask me, like, who is this guy? Which is made me feel good because I was like, well, this is exactly what we're doing this mural. You all need to know about the history of this town and this guy. So there was that. And and and the other one, the, Herb Thomas one,
you
know, yeah, that one, I had to do quite a bit of research in that. A lot of that was provided by the family who I think helped finance that one.
And so you mentioned work in the future, and you mentioned Carthage, previously. Is this kind of a growing space for you doing, public murals?
Yeah. Well, I've been doing so one of the other things is that afforded me, the opportunity to tour with my band, as you had, referenced earlier Mhmm. Was, this painting murals I could, you know, paint for a couple of, weeks, you know, make a couple thousand dollars, and then go out on tour Mhmm. And, you know, eat barely anything and sleep on floors and be totally fine with it. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I bet you do. And, and then as time wore on and I got married and had a family, I had a kid in 2011, it became pretty serious. Like, alright. Now you can't really subsist off just a couple $100 here and there. So I really made a a, a valiant effort to, like, buckle down. That's when I rebranded my name of my company and, like, bought a vehicle, a work truck, and invested in the studio and really kinda tried to make it a legitimate operation versus just like, oh, I'm gonna go pay the sign for $300. That'll, you know, get us through the week. Sure. And, part of that has been looking into, answering calls and proposals all all over the state and even into other states, Georgia or DC. And, but what's been very fortunate for me is getting the Carthage job, the first Carthage job, ultimately led to me, in some ways, getting the Stanford job. I mean, I I applied for just like everyone else. But, and people have seen it. So, like, it's a people have gone, oh, I've been in Carthage. I saw that job. Would you like to come and take a look at our such and such wall at, I don't know, Dunn, North Carolina or whatever, which I'm more than happy to do. Painting in small towns has been, it couldn't be more different than painting in, like, a place like Raleigh or Charlotte, which I've done plenty of paintings in both of those towns, and they're totally fine. But when you paint in a small town,
and as you know, because you cover beats in small towns, people were just so much more receptive and so much happier for you to take the time to, like, acknowledge their
happier for you to take the time to, like, acknowledge their town or be there that it's like, it's more comforting. That's that makes sense. So, like, it's not just a cut it's not like a cut and dry job. It actually has, and not to sell any of the stuff I've done in the bigger city. Actually has, and not to sell any of the stuff I've done in the bigger city short, but it's like doing something in a small town. It it just feels better, I guess, is the place of it. Am. Especially doing historical murals for smaller towns, people wanna come and tell you their story that relates to what you're doing. Mhmm. I mean, first of all, again, any number of people that are artists that'll come and say, oh, I'm an artist too. Tell me about what you're doing and then get into that. But then Mhmm. Like, for instance, with the the African American history mural, there'll be be people that tell me about knowingly Boykin or tell me about their stories about how they went to Sure. Mister Wicker's office and he, you know, was he paddled over something. You know? It's like these people don't wanna share these wonderful stories. And I'll tell you, I've I've probably met it feels like I've met half of Sanford at this point because everyone is wants to ask me what I'm doing or they even if they don't wanna share a story, they're just curious, genuinely curious. And, and that's always fun. And Carthage is the same way. Absolutely.
Is there anything I didn't ask about that you think's important to point out? I mean, something I might not have even thought to ask.
One thing people, have asked me a lot is is about murals in the communities. Like, people I get this question all the time, and it's it's not I don't see it as condescending, although it could be construed that way. People say when I tell people what I do, then almost immediate backup is, oh, you can make a living doing that? Or, oh, is there enough work for that? And it's and I get what they're saying because it's a very esoteric field. Like, painting murals is not something people necessarily need or want. But when they're up, it became it becomes a highlight of a restaurant or a library or a aquarium, wherever people take notice and think, oh, that's really cool. And so, I I I hope that whatever I'm doing, is, I hope more and more people realize that even though it's not a permanent thing, it may not, seem the best, way to spend money in certain instances. It does help in a lot of ways, rally around some communities. And I'm not I'm not speaking strictly me. There's lots and lots of muralists out there and there's lots lots of artists. And so places like Sanford, having these programs where they wanna expand and Carthage, and, I think it's just a really good thing for each town and you're starting to see them pop up all over North Carolina. I noticed like Winston Salem and Greensboro have these new, mural initiatives. Charlotte has one. Raleigh has one. So it's it's almost like a, subsect of of of public art where it's a focus on just murals. And I just I'm glad that you're shining some light in the direction of it because I think it's I think it's a really neat way for artists in the community to interact. And it's very simple, and they're relatively inexpensive, and you can put them up and then you can paint them over. Do you still do you still have don't you didn't you have a black Explorer bass that we used to play? I had, I had a white
Thunderbird that I played. Thunderbird. That's what I meant. Here to explore. What am I talking about? And and it was a bass I couldn't play because, I mean, I I'm only, you know, I'm only, like, five foot five, and that bass was it was taller than me if you stood it up
next to me almost. No. The bit that's why I loved it so much. The visual on the stage is hilarious because you're like you're you're but you handled it. It wasn't like you couldn't play it very well. You played it perfect, but it was like you holding that thing is awesome, man. Well, it the the challenge was if I was
holding that thing is awesome, man. Well, it the the challenge was if I was playing some of the low notes at the bottom of the neck, I I would have to crane my my palm over so tightly that I would lose blood flow to my hand. And and so my hand would fall asleep on stage, and there are certain, like, runs and, like, notes I would totally mess up. I played Scott the tape of Daryl Bowie calling for recognition, and Scott was really appreciative. Daryl, if you happen to be listening. Mayor Mann has big hopes for the future of the mural trail. It's kind of the open for business sign he's been after, at least for the character of that town. Absolutely. It gave me the, the impetus for the idea that, hey, we should we can do more with this. We can create a destination place
of public art that people would wanna come maybe eat lunch, spend a Saturday or an afternoon here, see the mural trail, walk the mural trail, and enjoy everything while they're doing it. And maybe they'll pop into a store. That's great. If not, they'll find Depot Park, and they'll hang out down there and watch a show or a concert or just have an ice cream cone or and and just have a great experience in Sanford. But there's more to it. And part of it while we're walking is, not just murals. You know, the other piece of this is that we are looking at doing street art, sculptures. You You know, we've got this new downtown revitalization streetscape. So we've got utility boxes that are new that we can wrap with some historic or some beautiful, designs. We've got window murals. If you see this building here, this is the Masonic Building. It's how it's known in Sanford. It's over a 100 year old building on a real prime corner, and the bottom floors are occupied. The top floors are not. And those windows up there need a little attention. So some of the ideas we have are actually for a window mural. Okay. So you can paint a window mural and make it look as if it was a real window or a new fancy window. Or you can actually in this particular building, we've actually drawn people dancing on the murals because it used to be a dance studio up there. Okay. And so we, you know, the idea is to draw you out of something more pleasing while you also remind people of your history in Sanford. And he says that's important anyway because Sanford otherwise is already on a development race track. Yes. And that's what we're seeing. We're up 500% in commercial building permits this year. 500%? Actually, 562%.
Is that year over year? That's year over year. Thanks for listening. I'll have links to all the pertinent stuff you heard about in this episode in the show notes at soundcloud.com/municipalequation. That's where all the past episodes are. Municipal Equation comes to you every other week from the North Carolina League of Municipalities online at nclm.0rg. And I gotta say again, thanks for the amazing support we felt since the massive Downtown Raleigh fire that displaced us from our headquarters. We're marching on, we're overcoming, and your support and kind words have meant a lot. Thank you. If you have any feedback to this episode, please send it along to me at bbrown@nclm.org. You can also get up with me on Twitter at muni equation. That's at m u n I equation. If you enjoyed this episode or any other's past, please give us a good review on iTunes and we'll talk to you again soon. This is Ben
Brown.
