EP 24: Autonomous Vehicles in Your City
Do autonomous vehicles or driverless cars still sound futuristic to you? Even if deployments are planned for just a few years away? That's right, this technology is developing so quickly that it's catching a lot of local policymakers off-guard. Experts say it's time for cities of all sizes to put some serious thought into what will be a major change in how we get from A to B. For cities, that means understanding the implications, considering the unknowns, and thinking about policy. But with the technology so fresh and incomplete, where would a city even begin with that? That's our focus on this episode. We're joined once again by Nicole Dupuis from the National League of Cities, which just released a report with guidance on the subject. According to Dupuis, "Absolutely, we need to take this seriously." And another question: Will future generations know the feeling of passing a driver's test? There's a lot to ponder on this episode. Show notes: NLC report, "Autonomous Vehicles: A Policy Preparation Guide" - http://nlc.org/AVPolicy NLC press release, "New Autonomous Vehicle Guide Helps Cities Prepare for a Driverless Future" - http://www.nlc.org/article/new-autonomous-vehicle-guide-helps-cities-prepare-for-a-driverless-future CityLab story, "The Self-Driving Dilemma" - https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/05/the-self-driving-dilemma/525171/?utm_source=nl__link3_050417 Bloomberg Philanthropies report, "Taming the Autonomous Vehicle: A Primer for Cities" - https://www.bbhub.io/dotorg/sites/2/2017/05/TamingtheAutonomousVehicleSpreadsPDFreleaseMay3rev2.pdf USDOT's Federal Automated Vehicles Policy - https://www.transportation.gov/AV Deloitte piece, "Securing the future of mobility: Addressing cyber risk in self-driving cars and beyond" - https://dupress.deloitte.com/dup-us-en/focus/future-of-mobility/cybersecurity-challenges-connected-car-security.html?id=us:2sm:3tw:4mobilitym:5eng:6Consulting:20170501:fom,fom%20:deloittestratop&linkId=36955724 GovTech story, "Autonomous Cars Will Change the Insurance World" - http://www.govtech.com/fs/Autonomous-Cars-Will-Change-the-Insurance-World.html?utm_content=bufferebbf1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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Transcript
On this episode of Municipal Equation. So we're rapidly approaching what you could call a large scale deployment of autonomous vehicles in our transportation system. And with that reality, we really need to start planning and and collaborating. If we don't do those things, we risk this unfolding in a very inefficient way or even worse in a way that doesn't work and is not good for cities. Autonomous vehicles, driverless cars are gonna be on the streets
And not in the distant future either. We're talking essentially now. I know it's caught a lot of people off guard. So how can cities prepare? Nicole Dupuy from the National League of Cities is back to help explain that to us and why cities and towns of all sizes need to pay attention. My name is Ben Brown, and this is Municipal Equation from the North Carolina League of Municipalities, episode 24. When I was a kid growing up in the nineteen eighties, I, I I watched a lot of ridiculous movies, including prominently, but not limited to, Corey movies. The two Corey's, Corey Haim and Corey Feldman. Which is funny because there really weren't that many of them, at at least not at the time. I guess I watched them so many times that I kind of remember there being more than only three by the end of the nineteen eighties. Then there were a bunch of not so good ones after that in the nineteen nineties. But in the heyday in the nineteen eighties, you had The Lost Boys. That's a teen vampire classic from 1987 with a lot of hilarious dialogue and you had Dream a Little Dream from 1989, which was actually filmed in my hometown of Wilmington, North Carolina. But between the release of those movies, right in between, you had by far the best one, the best Cory and Cory movie It's the one that my old friends and I still bring up and quote lines from as absurd as they are The movie's called License to Drive from 1988 and it centers on, the right of passage of getting your driver's license. I mean, it's it's about more than that. It's it's about, a teenager with bad judgment who fails his driver's test and has to steal his grandfather's Cadillac to go on a date with his dream girl before everything goes wrong. But that that stole the core of it though. That that feeling of being a kid at that age when you can get your driver's license and feel that freedom of driving a car. I remember it. I'm sure you do too. Your first car, you're always gonna remember what that is. But what's gonna happen with that feeling in the years ahead? Are are kids even gonna get to experience that feeling in, say, twenty years? I honestly don't know. Here's why it's on my mind. I use TweetDeck for Twitter. If you don't know what TweetDeck is, it's basically a way to organize the kind of information you wanna see on Twitter. You can do it by keyword, for example. There are plenty of other apps that do the same thing in a different or better way, but I'm fine with TweetDeck. I organize my Twitter topics into individual columns. So when someone tweets something based on a specific topic that I'm looking for, it shows up in one of those columns on my computer screen. So I've got them set up for words or phrases like cities, and public technology, and smart cities, and local government. And it turns out that I don't even need a column set up for one of the other big things I'm interested in, which is autonomous vehicles. Because tweets and news stories and opinion pieces about autonomous vehicles or driverless cars Jam Pack might tweet DEC anyway, across every category. Autonomous vehicle or AV technology goes back a long way in terms of conversation. But over the past year alone, I've read countless articles about the technology and have seen a pretty clear uptick in advancements, confidence with the technology, but also a lot of evolving questions as well. So why is this? Well, think about it. You've got a number of private companies in a space race, essentially, with AV technology. They all want to be the breakout company or at least at the forefront when it comes to rolling this hugely transformative technology out to the general public. There are other considerations, yeah, but that alone, that nature of competition has really knocked down the speed limit sign on this one. But doesn't it still seem pretty futuristic? Autonomous vehicles in your town? Like, it might be something that changes lives for the next generation, but not ours. Maybe it's because we sort of romantically picture the technology in a sci fi esque society of gleaming buildings and pedestrians in silver space suits getting into cars that can quietly drive themselves to saucer shaped houses or underwater domes while robotic housekeepers ask us how our day was or some other omni magazine vision of the future. Except the AV part, the driverless car part, is happening now. It's been happening. And not just as a novelty, it is happening with eyes on big rollouts in just a few years. Still, to a lot of people, it's the job of a future urban planner or future transportation engineer to carry out. So it's not surprising to know that local officials maybe just kind of understand it from a conceptual point of view without thinking that maybe now is the time to write at least some degree of policy for this new technology that's rolling in. It also wouldn't be any surprise to wonder where the heck you start with local policy writing. Without a ton of institutional knowledge about AV technology going around, you'd need to reach out to research.
This is Nicole.
If you follow this podcast, you're familiar with Nicole Dupuy from the National League of Cities. She's been on a number of times in the past whenever NLC releases a report that has some consequence. Well, the latest one, which she helped to write, is about autonomous vehicles and how cities can prepare themselves. It's a policy guide. And if you're a listener from a mid size or small town and you're thinking that this driverless car stuff is just for the big cities, you'll wanna keep listening. Nicole, the the last time we talked was about smart cities, and one of the takeaways was, yeah, it it really is time to get as informed as possible about new technologies that can impact cities and government. But this one has moved so quickly that this technology has moved so quickly that it's really caught a lot of people off guard. And it makes sense that it's moving fast with the space race mentality in the private sector on this. But, you know, in in some cases, it still doesn't feel like something soon on the horizon. So what would you say to public officials who might be wondering, you know, do we really need to take this seriously
yet? Well, my answer to public officials asking that question would be absolutely we need to take this seriously. The reality is that we don't know how this is going to deploy or unfold, but auto manufacturers, as you mentioned, and other actors in this space are all competing with one another and making, competing promises to deploy by 2019, 2020, 2021. Mhmm. And if local government officials started thinking about this yesterday, it might feel like a crunch to figure out how this is going to impact the community Mhmm. To initiate public engagement and education, to get feedback from the public, and then subsequently to craft a regulation that makes sense for everyone. You know, two years isn't that long to figure out an issue like this that's unprecedented and increasingly complex. So I would urge public officials and municipal
governments to begin thinking about this now. And so where are we? You know, this is moving so quickly. Where are we right now with autonomous vehicles? Like, what's actually happening out there today?
It is moving very quickly, much more quickly than we all anticipated, I think. As I mentioned, all of the major auto manufacturers are competing to be the first to deploy or bring this technology to market. We're also seeing new players joining the game like Tesla and Faraday Future. Mhmm. And there are pilot programs already established in some cities and in and and others, elected officials are desperately Pennsylvania and Arizona and in California. And the USCOT recently in January announced 10 automated vehicle proving grounds where more railroad testing babies is gonna take place shortly. So we're rapidly approaching, what you could call a large scale deployment of, autonomous vehicles in our transportation system. And with that reality, we really need to start planning and collaborating. We need collaboration between the public and private sectors and coordination with, with local government. As we know, transportation doesn't stop at the city line. So if we don't do those things, we risk, this unfolding in a very inefficient way or even worse in a way that doesn't work and is not good for cities.
You mentioned the pilot programs, and and, obviously, it's it's at the attention of certain governments or agencies. We talked a while back about drones and how the advent of unmanned aerial systems really prompted the government to do something. So the federal government last year put out regulations on how we can use drones, for instance. An autonomous vehicle technology clearly implicates government too. Right? So what kind of action or actual policy has government taken already to brace for driverless cars in terms of potential regulation?
Yeah. As you just mentioned, last year, USDOT and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, also known as NHTSA, released the Federal Automated Vehicles Policy, which was really an important first step toward developing a policy framework for the safe and effective use and incorporation of autonomous vehicles on our vehicles on our roads. Mhmm. You know, states have always, had a significant role in regulating transportation, and already we've seen several state legislatures pass, bills related to autonomous vehicles, and we've seen some state governors have passed executive orders related to autonomous vehicles. But the reality is that we really need coordination between all levels of government, federal, state, and municipal governments. And this isn't just going to be a one time shot. It's gonna be iterative. We're going to have to learn and see autonomous vehicles in action to know exactly how best to regulate them. So there's not going to be this one time process where we say, okay. We figured it out. We we established the regulatory framework for all of this. We're going to have to see it in action. And even, the USDOT is is is now talking about, a second version of their federal automated vehicles policy. And we envision a a very similar thing at NLC with the resource that we just put out, expecting that it will be iterative and that we'll have to update it as this as this issue unfurls. So, you know, obviously, local governments play a critical role in the safe operation of AVs and and really in promoting public outreach and adoption mostly because they're closest to the people, and we kinda see them as being ground zero for all of this kind of happening. And making sure local governments have a place at the table in all of this is really, really important too. We want to make sure that public engagement is a huge part of all of this and and ensure that, communities have the opportunity to give buy in, as this new technology is deployed. So, just as a recap, really, we have to think a lot about coordination between different levels of government, and and thinking about how this best works in communities of all sizes.
Alright. So so what about the private sector and manufacturers? Are are they showing a willingness to work with government on this? I mean, obviously, they have to to some degree, but, you know, what what's really happening in terms of manufacturers making choices that'll be palatable to regulators?
Well, we're seeing more and more of a role, for manufacturers, obviously, and more and more of a relationship developed between auto manufacturers and kind of the public sector. I think, auto manufacturers also recognize that a key component of deploying this new technology and of their competitiveness in this in this new market includes working with government officials at all levels to ensure that there's a regulatory framework in place that enables the safe and efficient inclusion of autonomous vehicles in our transportation network. So one section of our new resource, actually, addresses the way that municipal governments can start conversations with auto manufacturers, which, you know, maybe has has taken place a little bit in the past, but I think now, local governments are going to really have to think about how they can forge those relationships.
So, yeah, I I wanna talk more about your report in just a minute, but I I'm thinking about infrastructure needs, you know, which we're always talking about that. And, actually, the first time you and I talked was about infrastructure, this quandary of infrastructure and how, you know, oh my gosh. It's crumbling, and we've got trillions of dollars in back projects and so on. You know? Not to mention broadband being a part of the the infrastructure conversation now. And and now we've got this surprisingly quickly developing technology, that someone say is disrupting transportation. And, you know, what what I just said is kind of a dire thought process that a lot of people out there might have. You know, if you think about something that might be disruptive in the context of our daily lives. So what are the real implications for infrastructure here?
Yeah. Well, I think one of the assumptions that we make is that this is gonna look the same everywhere, and that's just not the case. And and the same goes for infrastructure needs. It will look very different in different places, and I think it's very much dependent on how cities wanna see autonomous vehicles operating in their communities. So some of the basic necessities or investments that we are going to see almost all communities have to make, and they're they're discussed frequently, include sensors or sensor networks that allow cars to communicate with the surrounding infrastructure and to communicate with one another. And then highly visible, well painted road lineage is one of those things that people, I think, elected officials don't think of that much. But the as as they are now, autonomous vehicles really need well painted road lines to to be able to kind of figure out the the infrastructure and the atmosphere around them and to to get around an efficient and safe manner. But, really, this is all dependent on how autonomous vehicles are deployed in a community. So, for instance, if we, you know, make the assumption that we're gonna use autonomous vehicles in the future the same way we use our vehicles today, in that everybody owns an AV and uses it in kind of a single occupancy fashion to get to and from work and then back to home, And then the infrastructure needs will likely revolve around technology and maybe even increased congestion because we can see a scenario where that doesn't do much good with our congestion issues that we have. However, if we think about deploying autonomous vehicles and fleets that utilize maybe a shared ride or a ride hailing model similar to what we have what we see sometimes with transportation network companies, We'll have very different needs in terms of how we accommodate AVs in the infrastructure that we need.
These questions are all over the place of how we're gonna use these cars in practice and, you know, what else they might influence. Whether it's travel time, energy use, even just taking trips that we wouldn't have otherwise taken for purposes as little as sightseeing. Are AVs gonna increase traffic for the convenience? Are they gonna reduce it? Will people be comfortable with longer commutes? Might that affect where we look for homes? Bloomberg Philanthropies just put out a report of its own on autonomous vehicles with a lot of findings and forecasts. Like the idea that AVs will spread somewhat slowly with the general public at first. Then once we hit a level of comfort, they're gonna spread fast, more quickly than the traditional automobile did in the twentieth century. It might reach peak intensity in the twenty thirties, this report says, and among other things, might allow the senior population to age in place more conveniently than today. A recent piece in CityLab posed the question of zero occupancy driving. That is, AVs driving around with nobody in them, on their way to pick somebody up, or to search for parking somewhere, or something. Just a thought. And what about potentially sharing AVs or carpooling to keep things simple? Would that be simple? What about mass transit? It could be decades before these and the million other questions get ironed out, but as all the experts say, you do have to start somewhere right now.
So a lot of this kind of hinges on, some of the decisions and policies that cities put in place and and how we think about deploying this and using this new technology.
You mentioned what AVs depend on to operate safely and, you know, the the news about AV technology, the headlines, understandably might make the public a little nervous. I mean, we don't always trust technology, especially if we picture an environment where human operated vehicles are driving among autonomous vehicles. What what are the concerns that you've heard from the public, and what are legitimate concerns about autonomous vehicles, that we're hearing right now?
I I mean, I think to your point, there is going to be a a period of time, a window where we're going to have to work through the challenges of having autonomous, and non autonomous vehicles on the road simultaneously. That's that's one of the fears I've heard expressed, from a lot of different people. You know, certainly, we don't always trust technology, and the reality is that technology is just a means to an end. It can be a force of good or it can be a force of evil. Mhmm. And it's really up to us to determine or guide the way in which it influences and works its way into our lives. You know, I think at this point, there's major skepticism from the public about how safe autonomous vehicles can be. And in some cases, that's because, you know, there's a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding about the technology. And then there's this the fact that Americans in particular, really love cars, and they really love the act of driving. Mhmm. We even assign values to it, you know, being a good driver, being a bad driver. And in most parts of the country, still getting your driver's license right of passage. Right. So for a lot of people, I think the emergence of AZs, almost represents this this unwanted cultural shift, maybe something being taken away that they truly love and take comfort in, and and maybe even feeling like their sense of control on the road is being taken away. The other major concern centers on congestion. You know, I mentioned kind of this, dystopian scenario earlier. There's sort of like this utopian, or dystopian way we can see things unfolding in this regard. And in that dystopian scenario, everyone uses autonomous vehicles. In the same way we use vehicles today. We see increased congestion. We see increased sprawl because it's a lot easier to live two hours away and work or sleep during your commute while your vehicle drives you into your job in the urban core. Meanwhile, after your car has dropped you off, you have, your car and many other vacant cars circling the block. These have been zombie cars in case you've never heard that term. Mhmm. Looking for places to park or idle during the day. And so, basically, in in this scenario, we haven't used the technology to address any of our congestion or sprawl issues, our environmental issues, and there's this possibility that they'll those issues will be exacerbated. Right. But then, you know, we have this more utopian vision where we can imagine AVs deployed in fleets or under ride sharing ride hailing models similar to TNCs. And in this scenario, you know, no one feels the need to purchase the car but instead might purchase miles or trips on a car that's part of one of those fleets. And, you know, this means we can make mobility more efficient and possibly cut down on traffic congestion. A land dedicated to parking can be redeveloped or used in a more efficient way. And, overall, we have this kind of more sustainable and efficient future. So I'm not saying that cities, you know, are are going to need to choose one or the other of these two, extreme scenarios. The reality is it might be some sort of something in between, some sort of hybrid model. But we can't expect that we're we're gonna be using AZs in the same way that we use cars today, and I think a lot of the conversations going on now still make some of those kind of harmful assumptions. You know? With new technology, we have new opportunities, and we need to think about how this technology might deploy and what kinds of challenges and opportunities we we have at the present that it might help solve. So I know that was a little long winded, but, I think that there are a lot of, interesting assumptions that we make with this
new thing that we don't know exactly how it's going to look. Yeah. Yeah. And getting familiar with it and and getting ahead of it or at least catching up with it in terms of policy development, you know, kind of wrapping our brains around how it might actually look in practice in our own towns. Your report for the National League of Cities is angled toward preparing cities for this technology, policy, planning, and so on. What is what are some of the big takeaways or recommendations from your report?
So our report has four recommendations, and I'll just kinda go through them. AVs are on the road today, so this is not something that we can we can count as, a future a future event anymore. The the pace at which this technology has developed and deployed has surpassed everyone's expectations and predictions. And we have all of these pilot projects operating in certain communities. So cities should really begin planning for this and holding public workshops with constituents now with the objective of seeking the stakeholder engagement and the constituent engagement that they need to move forward and really educating the public on what is certain to be a very complex policy process. Mhmm. We need to consider policy development with the right people at the table. Cities can really begin considering the ways in which autonomous vehicles might fit into their long range plans, their communities, and initiating discussions internally and externally about how to develop the policies needed for safe operation of AVs in their communities. Right. We need to cities need to continue to track and monitor, progress at the federal and state levels and make sure they're very intentional about making their voices heard. There are so many policy interests around this emerging technology, and cities should really stay apprised of any future and state policy and legislative developments that come about and make sure that their interests are voiced during any future comment periods and hearings around these issues. I know this seems kind of like, an obvious an obvious assertion here, but, all of this is so tightly linked, and cities need to just be very intentional about making sure they have carved out a place at the table when these discussions are are are ongoing. Mhmm. And then finally, beginning to plan for infrastructure needs and and building out the data and computing capacity necessary to position your city to take advantage of what is looking like it's going to be an automated mobility future. You know, we encourage municipal leaders to consider their short and long range infrastructure needs, ensure that any new investments better position their city to support and integrate autonomous vehicles, and autonomous vehicle technology. And this includes efforts to invest in data storage, processing capacity, investing in sensor networks and and broadband, and ensuring that the streetscapes and right of ways can can best accommodate AVs. So that's a lot, to to point at cities and say you better get ready for this. You better prepare. But I think that, you know, as as you mentioned, the rapid pace at which this is all kind of coming down. The only thing that cities can do is is ready themselves and and start thinking about how they want this to look in their communities.
All of the headlines I've read about AV technology kinda take place in in the context of larger cities or big metropolitan areas. What about smaller towns?
Yeah. I mean, this is definitely not limited to large communities. I think that one of the one of a couple of the things that are are commonly overlooked in this discussion, again, because we make assumptions about how this technology is gonna be used in this very, standard way that we've always used cars, is, how this how the technology can be used for transit. And, you know, cities of all sizes have transit systems, bus systems, rail systems. And then how this technology might be used for freight, or long haul trucking in particular. That's an industry that supports a lot of midsize and small communities. And so for those communities to say, that's a big city issue. I don't need to pay attention to this, Very shortsighted. I think that, in fact, transit and freight might be some of the first industries where we see this deployed, in a more in a more mainstream way. I might be wrong about that, but, the point is, and as I mentioned before, transportation doesn't stop at the city of Vine. So as as we see this deploy, more and more, I think we're going to see regions start to have to respond and coordinate around the deployment of autonomous vehicles and autonomous vehicle technology.
So with things changing so rapidly, do do you care to make any guess as to where we'll be in five years?
Well, if I would have tried to have guessed five years ago, I probably would have been very wrong. And, you know, I don't have a crystal ball. I think we can safely say that AVs will be much more prominent on our roads in five years. But beyond that, I can't really say. I guess the big takeaway from today's discussion here is that where we go with this technology is largely up to us, largely up to municipal governments and local elected officials. And and municipal governments will have a significant role to play in thinking about this and guiding what it looks like. So,
that's the best answer I can give you on that. So is there anything I didn't ask about? Anything that's occurred to you while we've talked that you think is important to point out?
No. I mean, I think we've pretty much covered everything. I would just I would just add that you can find the full resource at nlc.org, backslash a v policy if anyone's interested in reading the full piece.
Thanks Thanks for listening. I'll have a link to the NLC study. It's called autonomous vehicles, a policy preparation guide, along with other reading that I've mentioned in this episode in the show notes at soundcloud.com/municipalequation. You can also find all the past episodes there, including more conversations with Nicole Dupuy. Questions that we didn't get into on this episode, Security in the cybersecurity sense, such as hacking or cracking. And then insurance. What kind of data is gonna help insurance companies figure that part out? I'll I'll include some links to those conversations too. I would love to hear your feedback and ideas for follow-up episodes. You can send me an email at bbrown@nclm.org. Or you can find me on Twitter. The handle is at muni equation, @muniequation. If you liked what you heard on this or any past episode, we would love it if you'd let us know why in a friendly review on iTunes. This podcast is made possible by the North Carolina League of Municipalities. It's online at nclm.0rg. Thank you again, and I'll talk to you soon. This is Ben Brown.
