to communicate what our, I'd say, quote, air quote, product

I'm Dana Kaminski, communications and marketing manager for the city of Hickory, North Carolina.

Great question. She know I really do think from my and I'm communication side of things, so I really do believe it's allowing the citizen and the community to have access to government, to what we're doing. It is their tax dollars that we're working with. So I believe having them engaged whether it be through our communications efforts, or through processes like boards and commissions, being on those boards and commissions to actually make decisions for their community. And then just being able to be aware of what's happening in their community from an event perspective, parks and recreation, libraries, public services, road closures, police fire, any department. So they know, and they know how to access the information

I've been in the government communications side of things for twelve years, and it has changed dramatically over time from, you know, sending out just a press release, whether, you know, be faxed out or whether it be emailed out, to you know, it's not just a press release anymore. You can't just rely on our media to tell everything and tell the story. We appreciate them and their involvement in telling the story. But we, as governments, have to become very active, just like a business, to communicate what our, I'd say, quote, air quote, product is, and that's our city, that's our town, our, you know, our our government and what we're doing. So we have joined the social media realm, of course. And not everyone every social platform that comes out is one that we use, of course. We we like to look at it as what can we do really well? Instead of spreading ourselves so thin across everything, because there are so many different platforms to use, we have to find what works really well for our community. I think everybody has to do that, as a new demographic. So I think social has changed our communication, how citizens are engaged tremendously. You might see less coming to meetings unless it's a hot topic. So how do you engage them if they're not coming necessarily to all of your council meetings? You know, how do you get them to know what's happening, what's important in their neighborhood? And we're fighting against a lot of, I call it noise out there, you know, lots of people are trying to communicate right now. And how do we, I always joke that, you know, who gets up every morning and says, I can't wait to go to my government's Facebook page. You know, that's us. But does our community do that? So how do we get them to want to do that? And I think there's some people that are doing it really well out there. You know, and then there's just your honest face to face communication. And you still have to have that. That doesn't go away. Just because we have social platforms, which are make it easier, I guess, at times for people to communicate. I I'd say it makes it easier, but also it can be harder. Because we don't always get to communicate back to everybody in those platforms. So, you know, we have to be cautious with where we're communicating with public records and things like that. So face to face is great. The meetings are still great. I think people coming to city council meetings, it's just an interesting realm to come and sit and be a part of and know what's happening behind the scenes and being active in that. I don't think people understand that is not enough and participate as much as they probably should or could, because they really sometimes don't know, what to do or how to do it. So it's our job to make sure they understand it's open for them to come. So I do think things have changed dramatically over the years, but there are good faithfuls out there of your water insert bill, you know, goes in the water bill that we have, as a hard copy or your annual report or, you know, things like that. But then social just adds a whole other realm that you could you do all kinds of things with.

that there's another social media tool out there that I don't even know about that could be more effective and quick and To interrupt you real quick Yeah. The great point is things like Nextdoor Yeah. Is an, you know, an application people can use. And it it works great in some communities and maybe not in others. And some people can use it and it's a valuable tool for them to get information or find out about things happening. Mhmm. But then in some communities, nobody's using it. So that's just not a tool that that community might be engaged in. But then Facebook could be huge for one community and Instagram, whereas LinkedIn and x is now, you know, for another. So you really do have to know your community. You have to know what your demographic is. You also have to know who you want to communicate to that you may not be communicating very well to. For example, let's say Facebook is our top one because it's a broad demographic. But Instagram is that younger demographic. So if we really want to communicate to that younger demographic, if we have some universities, which we do in our city, and we want to kind of capture that audience and get them to stick around, it might be Instagram. You know, of course there's Snapchats, and there's all kinds of other things that are out there. And you just gotta really know, like, how to use it, how to use it well, and who are you communicating to, and what message are you communicating. You know, if you wanna talk to senior citizens in your community, I'm not quite sure Instagram's gonna be the the method for that, you know. I don't wanna discount that there's probably some great seniors out there using it. But, you know, our water bill is a great insert, and they stick it on their fridge. You know? So you really have to know what tool you're using. And for us, I would say in government, because we don't have one specific product that we're selling, we're selling it to our community and services and things that people need to be aware of. And we have to make sure we're talking to the entire community. You can't just say, I only need this demographic to know about what's happening. So we really have to be wise about our manpower that we have to be able to push out the messages. And then what is the best tool to use to communicate to the entire demographic? And there might be three, there might be five, there might be 20. Mhmm. And you have to narrow that down to three.

Absolutely. That that's a great question. I do think, in a community, you're always gonna have perception. Mhmm. Whether that's real or not, a different and it could be different not just for the whole community. It could be this neighborhood has a perception, as opposed to this neighborhood has a perception of what your city, your town, or county looks like or is. So I think it's getting through, like, the back story of why. Like, why does that community come to everything? Or why does this one not come to anything? How do we communicate to a cultural community, that that has definite specifics of how they like to communicate? And maybe we don't know those things. So finding that out about your community. Really knowing again, what is the base of your community made up of? But is it changing? Are more people moving in? Are people moving out? So I think once you know some of that background, and that takes time. I mean, that's not a quick answer. You can't just say, oh, I know that answer because I, you know, I live here. You kinda have to talk to the community. You kinda gotta get in there and say, okay, you know, what's going on here? And those might not always be the easiest conversations. You know, you might have to really hear them. And you may not want to always hear everything that they're saying because it may not always be, you know, easy to take and understand that, you know, maybe we've not done things perfectly on our side. But I think it's good to build relationships first and foremost. If you can build relationships with people in your community, strong ambassadors for your community help, in all different demographics and cultures and everything, I think that helps. I think if you have, diverse events, whether that be through your parks and rec programs or at your libraries or in your downtowns, that invites your whole community. And it doesn't have to be one event for the entire community. It could be, for example, we have a partnership with Central Latino. And they have their own event, Todos Semos Americas. We are all Americans. And they put it on, but we're partnered with them in our downtown. And so the Latino community comes out and feels very engaged, in that. So it's just one way of communicating and and having a partnership with a specific cultural organization. And that's just that area. But I do think getting people just sitting there saying, everybody's gonna come to a a council meeting or, you know, they're gonna know about everything because they come to that, or they watched it on our YouTube channel the next day, or they streamed it live, or whatever. Yeah. I I think that's tough. I mean, I do think we want that. We want them to come and watch, and then we talk about it. But I do think we have to take that meeting and what's happened into different formats out to the public. And it's not easy because not everybody's wanting to listen to their you know, if if everything's well in your life, and you're happy with your property, and you're happy with your, you know, city, and you like your restaurants, and you like your activities, you're not necessarily probably engaging with your government. Right? You're paying your water bill, or your taxes, or your, you know, and you're just going along. Now, you hit a pothole, and you're get a flat tire or something happens, you know, now you're gonna engage with your government. Or if, you know, there's an issue with your neighbor and the police show up and, you know, you're engaged with your government. So I think people are very, we're a little in our own bubbles, right, as a society. And if it affects me, then I engage. Yep. So we're always trying to engage them even when it doesn't affect them from a government perspective. We want them to always stay informed because the first thing we're probably gonna hear as government communicators is, well, I didn't know about that. Right. And I'm, like, my first question back is, well, are you connected to our website or our Facebook or our e newsletter or our do you get our water bill? Do you, you know, do you look at that insert that came in the water bill, did you just throw it away? Like, those are all the questions because if you're not connected, it is harder for government, I would say. Because we're not necessarily putting all the flashy ads out there on TV, you know. Mhmm. People aren't necessarily seeing it, in their face every day unless it unless they have to be engaged in it. That's our biggest challenge, I would say.

Absolutely. Yes. Thank you for bringing that up, and I appreciate, what you've said. And, yes, we have stayed connected, with you guys too because we wanna make sure our story's told, you know, as well because we think it's a good story. Hickory has gone through some trials over the years, where we were doing super well, and then we hit rock bottom there for a while. And we were not doing so well, and our unemployment rate was in the tank. And so we had to really get creative, not just as a city, but as an entire community. We had to work with our partners, economic development partners, chamber, county, the Convention Visitors Bureau to really come back with how, how can we reengage our community and bring people back here and want to work here. So years ago, we started, inspiring spaces. And that's what led us to where we're at now with the Hickory Trail. A bond referendum was put out to the public in 2014, and it passed. And it was for a couple different projects. But the main one that we'll talk about one one of it, of course, was to create a a class a manufacturing, high end manufacturing clean, manufacturing park. And that's been amazing and and done fabulous called Trivium Corporate Center. Mhmm. But Perry Trail is the other side of that. And there are five pieces of the trail that connect across the whole community, like you said. We have a city walk, river walk, aviation walk, because we have an airport, a regional airport. There's a private airport actually right now. Maybe one day again, we'll have commercial, but, it's a regional airport. We have Ollie Art Walk, which is off of Old Lenore Road. So o l l e is Ollie from Old Lenore. People wonder where that name came from came from. Ollie Art Walk, and then we have the historic Bridgeview Walk. And that is through our traditional, has been a traditional African American community. So it's a historic community, and, we have a lot of passion and great engagement, of citizens at that community as well. So it has connected through our downtown, from our university, Little Rock University, all the way across to our baseball stadium, our airport, our lake. It has just brought connectivity. And not not all the projects are completed yet. City Walk is completed. River Walk is, opening grand opening everything April 4. And then we have Aviation Walk coming. It's under construction right now. Historic Ridge Walk is under construction right now. And Ali Art Walk is just beginning the phase of, diving into construction. Mhmm. So, big undertaking since 2014. It's been ten years in the making Wow. For all of this. But it really changed how we communicated, I would say. You know, we've always had a strong brand with Life Well Crafted and communicating that to our public, and they embraced it. But then we took this to the next level with these projects. Now people will say, well, they're just trails. They're just biking walk walking trails, paved areas, 10 foot multipurpose paths, in a lot of areas. But they're economic development drivers. We have companies that have stayed or have come because of this. I don't have all the statistics here. I'm trying to mean to quote you. But we have great numbers that have come from just learning what, again, what a community needs. Mhmm. Sometimes they may not always say they want it, but they do need it. And we're we're showing that because now they do use it. Now they do want it. Sometimes it's if you build it, they will come thing. So we have put this city walk, we use the example, you know, this major tenth, type of path. It is this trail right now is about, I think it's 11 miles of trail across the whole community and city. And we have put it out on our website. We have a domain name that's directly straight to it called hkytrail.com. And we have communicated our bond projects the whole way through on our website, on social, in our e newsletters, in everything that we do. And we had a bond commission, a 42 member bond commission of people in the community who came together to help make the decisions for a lot of the projects. And that's not easy. 42 member bond commission is not easy. Right. Yeah. Different opinions that everybody's coming together and has to, you know, have to really have that organized and know how to utilize that, if you're gonna ever, ever do that large of a commission. Mhmm. So, you know, we we lived and learned on some of that stuff too. You know, sometimes it doesn't mean they weren't great, but sometimes bigger isn't always better. It's hard because you have to break them up into categories and therefore it can be heard. But we kept them engaged throughout this whole process as well. And now they're our advocates to the community about the projects. Let let talk about engagement. Our historic Ridgeview Walk, we engaged, some women from the community who were very passionate about what we were gonna be speaking about in that community, about their history and about what's gonna go on the markers along the trail. And we brought them in, and we worked for them for about a year to just get input from them. Like, they brought in their yearbooks. They brought in, like, this building used to have all the businesses back in the day, and here's what they were. And I didn't know that. So it's truly sitting, again, face to face at the table saying, I wanna hear what you have to say. And then I take what they say, and I have to communicate that appropriately and show it appropriately, through content and pictures on these markers. So I'm proud of that. I'm proud of what it's turning into. I'm excited about it. People are very excited about the Riverwalk. It's on Lake Hickory. Mhmm. And our on water bridge part, was the bridge part was done by Rosales, Miguel Rosales, who also created the one in Greenville, South Carolina. And so we're very proud of that. We're excited about that. It took our trail system that was just in the woods to a whole other level. Mhmm. So now people can engage with the waterfront, not actually getting in the water, but they can be right there at it in a park that was our par our property, on a right raised path with bike trails, mountain bike trails. So we have a lot of connectivity in different ways now that we didn't have before because of these projects. And again, economic development, our downtown was redeveloped. It's amazing. It has done exactly what it was supposed to do. Investing in that has just brought people downtown like never before. So we're we're proud of the projects, and we're excited to see what it's gonna be in the next five years. And we're never stopping now. I mean, you know, we've done this, and we're not just like, oh, we're done. You know, we're not doing it. We keep looking at new places, new things. We have a Hickory Aviation Museum getting built at our airport. Charlotte has a beautiful airport museum, and we've always had a an aviation museum, but it's it's never been enclosed. And, you know, the plane's inside, so they're building that in conjunction with Catawba Valley Community College. So they're gonna offer programs there at this building and facility, funded in part with the state. So it's it was a great partnership, and we're looking at that potentially being an innovation area for Hickory. Not just that piece, but that whole area. So that's our next, I think, step we're moving into. So once you start these type of projects, I think they just continue in a city. Typically, they keep growing.

know, what the direction is of the government and the projects that you're trying to do and and the the tone you're trying to set and the projects you want people's involvement in. Yeah. I was so excited. When I came on board twelve years ago, I was brought in because, Mandy Petzuma brand was here, and I know she was very active for a long time in government. And she helped roll out the brand LifeWell Crafted, and brought me in, as a specialist at that time. And I got to kind of be at the beginning phase of just rolling that brand out to our community, to our, our employees. And then she's now at our convention center, which is exciting. And I'm in the role she was in here, so I've got to carry on the Lightfall Crafted brand. And that brand, I will say from the beginning before bonds were ever discussed or on the table, I believe started the journey. You know, Hickory, again, was in a state of, you know, who are we gonna be and what what are we gonna be in the future because we've taken this hit. It's been tough. That was a piece of that. A big piece of that is branding us. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And for anybody listening who doesn't know,

plants can close and employers can go overseas and whatever it happens to be. And Right. That happened to us. We are furniture manufacturing big time and fiber optics and and all those things. And so when furniture did a lot of them went overseas, that's what happened with our shift. And we were very, we weren't as diversified as we thought we were. And we were very manufacturing based. And we still are. And furniture's still a huge piece of hickory. And we have our hickory furniture mart. It's a huge piece. But we also had to diversify and become some other things as well. And so with economic development changes and I think the branding of Hickory craftsmanship, like I used to say it perfectly, that is who we are at our core. And so when the surveys went out and everybody decided, you know, what Hickory's brand was gonna be, Life Well Crafted became that. And it it has fit and it still fits. You know, sometimes people change the brand on a constant. I ours is sort of, you know, it stays. It just doesn't it it fits. You can tweak it and do some cool stuff with it, but Life Well Crafted has always just been who we are. And so we were able to embrace with partners, that brand and roll that out. And it's still to this day, we have symphony well crafted, and singers well crafted, and theater well crafted. Everything's well crafted in Hickory. And so when we tie it back into this, the bond projects, when we did the construction downtown, we brought back crafting. And it's crafting the future. And everything is being crafted in some way. So we tied our brand into our construction. And we had banners over the barricades and signage and all those. And we made it fun, you know, like pardon our progress while we're crafting a new future. You know, things like that. So I think you have to live and breathe. If you you say I'm gonna be a brand, you know, you gotta live and breathe that brand on everything that you do. And fortunately, our management and our council was very much behind that and support that and, embrace it as well. They love the brand. So I think utilizing that throughout the process of the bond construction pieces. Again, citizens were smacked in the face with, now this road's under construction, or this is getting torn up all over the city. And so we had to be very cognizant of how are we communicating that in a way that they can, hear it. So go back to the brand, go back to what they embraced to begin with, and crafting was that piece. So, we, I think we fortunately had something good ahead of time to build on. And it has just carried through with these projects. So, that would be one of my biggest things to anyone who is thinking about branding. You know, really pick a brand that fits for a long time, because then you can utilize it in so many different ways. With our website under construction, everything was under Crafting the Future or Crafting Hickory. Mhmm. We have a magazine that we work in partnership with with our local paper to print, when we need to do updates. And we call it Crafting Hickory.

and and how that affects these tones. And also, to that point, when we talk about citizen engagement, when you do projects like this, and especially for us being that we were very active in marketing it, through our convention business bureau and other and us in general marketing the brand and who we are out there past Hickory, to the state, to other markets where we can pull people to come here, and to the nation about who we are. Because of that, you have to be consistent in your message. You have to you can't just hit it once and think it's just gonna make a change. Mhmm. You have to be consistent and you have to still say, okay, these projects are for a purpose for economic development, which is going to change the face and structure sort of of our city. Mhmm. Are we prepared for that? And internally, how are you staffing for that? How are you taking care of the projects after they've been done? Because that matters to the citizen. You know, if you're gonna put 11 miles of pathways and things through your community and you're touting that for ten years, and then you don't maintain it, and you don't keep up the plants and the mulch and the cement and all of that, We're only as good as, like, again, the the streets, and your water service, and your trash pick up. If those things aren't working, then a bond project of making it prettier and nicer doesn't matter because you don't have water. You don't have trash pick pickup. You don't right? I mean, so Right. Yeah. It's your basic necessities you have to have first taken care of. Then you add in these projects that drive economic development, which drives more people to your community, which is great because we want a bigger tax base and all the things that, you know, come with that. But then you want more people to come. And then you also have the people who have been here their whole lives saying, what what about these changes? And I don't know. And this is uncomfortable. And, you know, so you have to balance people who have lived here their whole lives. It's not the Hickory they used to know. But we're not the Charlotte, and we're not the Asheville either because we love Charlotte and Asheville. We want them to be them, you know. And we but we're happy they're next to us. Mhmm. You know, so we wanna benefit from that. So how do we say come on into Hickory? We welcome you. And people who've been here, we want you to stay. We don't want you to leave because of things that are changing. Embrace the new downtown. Embrace the things. And how do we get you to embrace that and engage in that? So it's a constant communication of your basic services being very, very well taken care of to your economic development and growth pattern. And that's where we come in with the communication piece of trying to tell that story constantly. Mhmm. You can't just come in and plaster your city with a bunch of stuff and tell tell people and don't tell them what the benefit of that is and show them why it's good for them. If your tax base is good and they feel good about that, then they're gonna be happier with your community. Mhmm. Right? So that's what we have to keep telling that story again and again and again because people might hear it one time ten years ago when they voted for the bond program, but ten years later they have to still believe that and still want to utilize those things we've put in place. That's where the engagement continues daily, constantly with everything. And that's from city council to our management department heads to the guy cutting the grass or the person in the ditch who has to dig that hole when your sewer stuff happens. You know, like, it's everybody on the team being on the same page too. And and and this is why

To us, it's not for trying to be somebody we're not. You know, we still wanna be life well crafted. We wanna be hickory and what people know hickory to be and come here because of that. But we also want to grow and be new and being inviting and have new, businesses wanting to be here, small and large, corporations to your mom and pop opening a coffee shop. You know, we want that. And what city I would hope what city doesn't want that. You know, so we know that you have to keep growing in some way. But changing the face of who we are was not what we wanted to do. We wanted to grow and grow smart and embrace new people coming here, but also keep the people who are here happy and with the services and things they've been accustomed to. So, I give tons of kudos to our management and our council for the decisions they've made and how they've done that. Because it's not an easy job to figure that out. And then, you know, how we communicate. And not all of it's always easy and always positive either. You know what I mean? When we're under construction and that's taking ten years to finish everything, people start to get weary of, you know, what what are they doing? And those are the conversations. So we have to keep saying what we're doing. And, and and be excited about those things. And we gotta get really creative sometimes, you know, as a government. That's the thing I think people don't realize is government can be very creative. We have to be. Mhmm. And, you know, I think people expect the big businesses to be creative in their approach, but we can be creative too. Or just government, you know. We just have a different realm that we're doing it in. And I I find that fascinating and exciting all the time that my team were always trying to come up with new ways to talk about leaf collection or to talk about trash pickup or, you know, whatever that is. On top of the cool big projects that we're doing. So your day to day still has to be government services no matter what. You know? And then on top of that, it's great when you can see your community start to grow and change. And people, you're, you know, we're in a farmer's market and they're telling us, oh, I moved here from such and such. And we love it in Hickory. And I'm like, how did you find it? We're like, oh, we just looked and we just went online. And I was like, really? Like, so it's exciting to hear those comments, when you do hear that. And then you hear the people who have lived here saying that they're happy. And they come to our events, and they're happy to be a part of the downtown and the you know, how it's changing. So that that makes us happy and keeps us keeps us going every day. Yeah. So, I mean, the this is,

Yeah. That's a that's a good question. Yeah. Picked my brain there for a minute. Let's see. Put myself back in the days when I started. You know, I think it's important to know what your public records laws are, first and foremost. You know, you need to know why we don't, I'll just dive into what our role is, why we don't necessarily go out there and communicate on third party sites on social media. It's because we don't have control over public records on that. You might have a great activist type, third party Facebook page that's out there communicating and ambassadors for different things, and it could be good or bad, whatever. And you want to get in there, and you want to communicate, and you want to talk about your projects, and you want to talk about your stuff, but we can't. We cannot get into being the spokesperson on a third party page because we don't have any control over our public record in that realm. So it is helpful to have ambassadors that you know or can work within your community that can put the positive stuff out there that's good getting that information from you. It's not that we don't want to encourage those conversations, but I don't think social media is the platform to do third party communication, because of public records. So I think you have to know that first and foremost. Because you don't ever want to get hit with what are all the conversations I want out of your record on that. And you cannot pull anything from a third party site that has taken those things down. So that's first as a government must know. Two, I think, you know, just because you're government doesn't mean you can't have fun and you can't communicate with where the citizen is at. Mhmm. You know, what matters to that person matters to me. I'm a human, right? So how how would I wanna learn something? And is it a fun graphic? Is it a nice picture? Is it a video? Really, you know, getting in there and going, what's gonna grab my attention? So do that. Just be careful how you do it, you know. Be transparent. Sometimes you gotta be careful about how you're being transparent with things that you may can't you maybe can't talk about just yet because it's a security risk. Mhmm. For example, construction. When we're building something and you have to put some barriers in place because you're at certain locations next to things that might have security threat stuff, you can't just put every piece of information out there because it's a picture and it's, oh, that gate's missing and somebody can see you know, so you gotta be careful with how you're putting it out there. So having an eye visually for everything you're doing, you know, is it the right thing in the background? Does somebody have a t shirt on that could be very politically incorrect to your community or to something you're putting out there? Maybe be careful with what's in the background of your pictures. And you wanna make sure that you're saying messages that are good from the government. You know? You're you're held to a high standard, I would say, in government. So it's not to be scary. And I tell people, I, I go through social media policy training with everyone. I'm like, I'm not here to scare you. I'm here to encourage you. But I'm also telling you, be aware. Right. I think know your laws, Know your ordinances. Know those things. But be aware of what we're pushing out. Get approvals from your department heads, from your management on the things that you're pushing out. Because I'll give you a really great example of something I learned firsthand very early in the day. We we have a partnership with our YMCA, swim programs. And it's our Parks and Rec YMCA. And I was writing a press release to push out and great program. And it was gonna be there was a cost to it. And I had that in the press release. And had I just pushed that out without an approval or having somebody review that, I did not know at city council meeting, like, the next night, they were voting Yeah. On taking the fee away. So I would have had to put a press release out, retract it, tell them, oh, I was wrong. It's free. But how nice is it to say it's free from the beginning, you know, because I talked to our city manager. So it is having connections with your internal community to know what messages are important to be putting out there. And then how do you write it appropriately? What kind of information does the public need to know right now? Do they need to know all of it or do they need to know a piece of it? So that's where you could do, like, bite sizes of things.

Glad you brought that up because AI has been a big conversation, you know, statewide and nationally in our communications groups Mhmm. And IT departments. And everybody has a little different approach to how that that works. We love it, honestly. And I know some people are very scared of it thinking it's gonna take our jobs. I don't believe that. Right. I think it's full. I think it's a great tool that we can utilize if you utilize it right and you know how to use it right. And again, there are parameters to AI, just like anything with government and public records and things like that. But I think AI can be a strong tool for communications teams to do things we haven't been able to do before. But you gotta be careful and you have to have some policies in place. And where in Hickory, I think we're taking the more conservative approach right now is we're kinda holding on AI a little bit on the, the bigger, you know, chat gbt and all those things until we have a policy in place. Sure. How we need to use it right. And we're kind of waiting on some, the state and some other people to kind of put those policies in place to see what's going on in the bigger picture. Because we don't want to get caught in something that's, oh, it's so cool and great. Like, again, every new social media platform that comes out, they're so cool and they're so great. But they may not be the right thing for you to utilize at that moment. So as we and I work closely with our IT director and having those communications and HR and legal. You know, making sure it's all flowing. When we wrote our social media policy, it was communications myself, our HR director and our, attorney. And it took a while to write that. Because you got First Amendment rights and you got your city policy and admins and all these things. So I really think it's okay to take a minute and dive in and see what other people are doing, see what the league is is suggesting, see what other policy makers are doing and saying about things, and then put it together for what works for your entity, your organization. And and by all means, I don't think being afraid of tools is the right approach either. Because I think it's if you can use them right and you can use them well and you have some policy in place, I think they can be a great asset.

Because, you know, when things become ubiquitous, then you really start to see these examples. And Right. Absolutely. Well and, you know, we we look at things as AI helps can help us again. We talked about lead collection. How do you write about lead collection every year and make it creative? Right. They send the same press release out every single year and it's the same information. Or you can maybe make it creative. And where AI could come in is, like, giving me an idea. Yeah. Like, how do I write this differently? And it can spit something back to me that I'm not gonna just copy and paste. I still have to do the job of writing it, and looking at it, and reading it, and figuring out how it fits for my community. But when you get into utilizing it for other things, do you really wanna say, this wrote my entire mayor's speech for this thing? And now now the mayor is, you know, well, wait a minute. Your mayor doesn't write speech. Like, you know, all these questions come into play. You gotta be careful with that because you wanna make sure that, you know, it's still the person who's needing to do the job. Right. You're not seeing it as a tool. So those are some of the things that we've been very, cautious about in looking at AI. Like you said, how do you use it well? And then pictures, you know, you don't want their hand to be all messed up in a picture because you didn't think about fixing that piece of it. You know, you just took the picture as is. So it takes effort to utilize a new tool like AI. But, again, I understand the hesitancy too. I'm I'm Alright. So I've talked with people on both sides of it, to see. So I am curious as to where this is gonna go. You're right. It's here. And it's a new engagement tool, as well. I think it's just how Just like Facebook was one day. Just like, you know, Instagram and Snapchat, all of them. When they came out, everyone was like, what is this? You know, how are we gonna use this thing? And now, so many of us use Facebook on a daily basis without it. We don't even know how to do our jobs at the time, I think. But, you know, now it's just part of what we do. But I think it takes time to get to that place with everybody. And I love hearing how other people are using it and learning, like, what you said, what you're doing is diving in. I'm very curious as to see how that will work through North Carolina, for sure.

I love what we do. I think it's exciting. I think we make a difference. So thank you for the conversation as well, and, I look forward to hearing from others in this realm

well.