Episode 89: Car-Optional Cities
It's nice to have a car, for all the practical reasons. But cars can be a bummer, too. They cost a lot up front, need regular maintenance, require insurance, lose on resale value, might have varying degrees of reliability along the way and bring other kinds of risks and exposures. What if that kind of stress went away for everyday folks? What if your town grew to be car-optional? Greensboro is one U.S. city looking at that possibility -- not as some kind of thought experiment, but as a reality. Two transportation officials with the City of Greensboro join us on this episode of Municipal Equation for a conversation about how the idea formed and how other cities and towns might think about it.
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Transcript
From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Municipal Equation, the podcast about cities and towns from the North Carolina League of Municipalities. Pardon my voice if it sounds a little bit different. I've lost it for a couple days, and it's slowly coming back. On the podcast today, we're talking about cars and transportation and what that means for us today. Take a US city of about 300,000 people. And now think about that city being car optional. You don't need a car to live and thrive there, a car optional city. And you might think, well, I I know people who live in New York and Chicago, and they never had to get their driver's license because the transit options they've they've got there. Like, yeah, there's a template for a car optional city, but those are cities with millions of people. They're exceptional in their development, and different kinds of cities have different kinds of transportation solutions. But most people in The US live in smaller towns by comparison with different kinds of immediate resources. In fact, the twenty twenty census, the last big decennial census, found that of the nation's roughly 328,000,000 people, about 63% lived in some kind of incorporated place, and about 76% of those incorporated places had fewer than 5,000 people. So not exactly the the New York City transportation system available to them. You know, obviously, the immediate resources vary between towns with thousands of folks and one of the big cities with millions. And I I know I didn't need to explain that, but I wanted to set that up in a way because Greensboro, North Carolina, who we're gonna talk about today, isn't a small town. It's got about 300,000 people. But that just makes it more interesting for a discussion of how a city like that might go from being the kind of place it is for most people living there today. And it's like most other cities of its kind where, you know, it's got bus service and so on. But generally, you do need a car or access to a car and preferably your own car that you own, own or leased to to get around conveniently and live the kind of life that we cast as flourishing American citizens. How could a city like Greensboro and its 300,000 people go from that to being car optional? And not just in some thought experiment kind of way, but talking about it for real. As we're about to be reminded in a minute, it's not cheap to have a car. What if we took that stress off? What if your city's people didn't have that stress on them where they live, didn't have to worry about that? Again, not just in a thought experiment kind of way, but something to think about as a real possibility. I'm gonna quote real quick from an online piece authored by Hannah Cockburn and Reginald Mason. They work for the city of Greensboro in transportation, and they've been out front in the work around the car optional possibility. And here's a quick excerpt from something they wrote recently just to give some context. Quote, according to the American Automobile Association, it costs nearly $10,000 per year to own and operate a vehicle. It's a safe bet that the costs associated with automobile ownership will not diminish over time. So as we seek to help residents in our city, especially those who only own one vehicle or solely dependent on public transportation to get to and from their homes or jobs, What can we as a municipal transportation department and transit agency do to enhance the quality of life through a car optional approach? End quote. And that's something written by Hannah Cockburn and Reginald Mason with the city of Greensboro in a piece published online on the website of the American Public Transportation Association. So to learn more about this, I caught up with Hannah and Reginald just a little while back to learn more about the conversation they're having in Greensboro and what's actually happening on the ground.
State your name and, your title and the agency you work with. Hannah, we can start with you. I'm Hannah Cockburn.
I serve as the director of transportation at the city of Greensboro.
K. And Reggie?
Reginald Mason, transit director, city of Greensboro.
Great. So the the reason we're talking today is, this, concept that I I I spoke with, with one of your colleagues about about the this idea. Again, concept vision, you could call it a lot of things, of a a car optional Greensboro by the year 2045, roughly twenty years away. So to some, just hearing that as I said it, it it might sound like it's maybe, just a cool thought experiment, you know, something to imagine. But how did it actually gain traction as a concept that the city of Greensboro, the government of Greensboro decided to make something out of, like, you know, how and why did this go from a cool idea to actually being something worth looking at?
So the idea of being car optional is one of the six big ideas associated with Greensboro's comprehensive plan, Greensboro 2040, and as one of the big ideas from that plan, it really gave us in transportation, our marching orders about what we should prioritize, what we should do additional planning work for, and how we, look at the way we invest in our transportation system. So to be car optional doesn't mean car free. Right. It really means about it to me, it means you're providing people the freedom to make choices about how they get around that feel safe and equitable.
You you you clarified that, car optional doesn't mean car free necessarily. What what does what what does car optional mean? Like, what what is a is is that, like, an actual term within the transportation industry? Does it have a definition?
So it we we, I don't think about it as, like, a transportation industry term. It really is an idea that I think is easy for an average person to get their arms around that, by changing the way we think about the transportation system and how it serves everyone in our community, whether you're eight years old or 80 years old or somewhere in between, give giving people real ways to get around, that don't require you to own and operate a car. You know, for most households, owning a car is one of the most expensive things, that you invest in when you add up the car itself, the insurance for the car, maintenance, gasoline, or charging, infrastructure, all of those things go together to make a really hefty financial commitment. So if we can take some of those burdens off of households, it allows households to have more flexibility to choose where they live and invest in their other areas of interest, whether it be education, household, needs, all of those kinds of things. It really is part of a larger idea of making Greensboro an affordable place to live.
Okay. Yeah. So so there's that financial aspect to it where, you know, the the car, you know, the the old saying or whatever, you know, it's the second biggest investment you'll make. And, and, you know, that there's a lot that goes into it. You know, it it it can be dangerous. It can be you know, it it it it it costs a lot. You know, just generically saying it costs a lot to to have a car for, you know, for pretty much anybody working a quote, unquote regular job. It's that can be a big expense. What was so so that was a sort of a a part that made it a a a big idea that this was something that, you know, maybe we could have some alternatives that affect the pocketbook of the the average family a little bit differently?
Absolutely. You know, when we think about the other six big ideas associated with our comprehensive plan, it ties into many of those, you know, having affordable housing. It also ties into our sustainability goals. All of those things really work together to support a vibrant city.
So what are the reasonable methods of transportation right now that one might use to get around Greensboro? You know, obviously, cars, but is it easy to get around on a bike or, you know, bus? Is there some kind of walking path or a trail that hits important spots of the city? Like, what what's what's it like right now?
So a lot of our transportation network so I'll talk about the infrastructure side and let, Reggie talk a little bit more about the transit services. Mhmm. From the infrastructure side, we have great road connectivity. We have less great connectivity when it comes to sidewalks, trails, and other, access to services, so we've been making a major focused investment in building new sidewalks. We've been working to build sections of our trail network, where we've been working to design expansions of the trail network so that we can begin to reach north, south, east, and west. So it's definitely a work in progress. Things are getting much, much better than when I first moved to Greensboro 25 Years ago. Mhmm. And it's it's take it takes time to, deliver a system that provides people the choices that they really need to get around.
Hey. Reggie, do you have any thoughts on that? No. I I have to agree with Hannah just just and also to add to that, you know, when we look at things from a transit perspective, Our transit system has been in place almost a hundred years, and it's been the same system, which we call hub and spoke system where all of our buses go into one location, which is the depot, and then, back out on the same route. So we're with with the go borough, with our long range transit plan, we're trying to improve upon the system that's already here by adding cross town routes and more frequent service. So Mhmm. We implemented back in March a, first cross town route, the Crossmax purple, which gets folks from the East Side Of Greensboro to the West Side Of Greensboro. And, you know, I think when I think about mass transit and moving people through the city, mass transit is not only a economic developer, but also creates economic mobility for those folks who don't have cars, who need to get to and from work. They can get there through public transportation.
Yeah. I I I like thinking about it that way as an economic development item and, you know, connecting people to, to well, to have the ability to to get to places of employment that maybe they wouldn't have the opportunity or ability to get to otherwise, for people who maybe didn't have cars. So it just seems like there's a lot of opportunity that way for just better connectivity.
Yes. Very much so.
Yeah. And I think one of the most powerful parts of the recommendations that are coming out of the Go Burrow plan are those targeted increases in providing services to places people need to reach for job access, for education access that, you know, in some cases, we are, increasing those levels of service more than a 100%.
Yeah. It's it's a lot to think about just just just how the car fits into, you know, just just sort of auditing my own life and and thinking about the the, you know, the the value and and role that my vehicle has in it. You know, I I live, I I work in Raleigh, but I personally, I live in Sanford. You know, there's that that connection. Yes. I can work from home some days, but, you know, it's it's good to to be able to have that access, to have the vehicle, to be able to. But I I because I'm such I'm so stuck kind of in that mode or that mentality, I don't often think about alternatives to it or other ways to get around the town that I live in. And it's just it's just it's it's such a neat thing to think about when it comes to maybe just kinda breaking a norm that you rely on so much because there are other opportunities and possibilities now. And, it it makes me want you know, have, look, get getting back to the actual, you know, discussion within city government, where are we with that conversation right now? Like, have residents weighed in and and given feedback that has sort of affected or or or filled in context for this conversation? Have there been input sessions? Like, what what's what's kinda happening on the ground?
So when we rolled out the, initial plan, the draft plan, there were several public meetings that we had. And, also, so surveys were done, with the public's input. And we, you know, with the surveys, we got over 1,500 comments from the surveys, which is very positive. It's probably the highest number of survey, complete surveys that were completed by folks, for the city of Greensboro. So with a lot of comments through that with public input, talking about what the public wanted. And one of the questions that they asked is, would you support a sales tax to increase, funding for mass transit? And over 80% of the respondents said yes. And they also, over 80% of respondents wanted what we call more frequent service. We had two concepts with this particular study. We had the ridership concept, which is more frequent service, more service every 15 versus the coverage concept, which was we expand our service out more but still run thirty and sixty minute service versus the more frequent service. And, again, the majority of the public wanted more frequent service. So that's what we've looked at. And when we come out with our final plan, it will address the ridership concept and and the coverage concept, but with 70% of it being more ridership and 30 ship 30% being more coverage.
Yeah. And what I what I would add to what Reggie noted, was that when we started thinking about this plan, we really knew that public engagement would be a key cornerstone for building support Mhmm. That would be necessary necessary to fund these transformational investments. And so we've done literally dozens and dozens of, public engagement activities. We've had meetings. We've gone to events. We've done surveys. We really have, both wanted and needed the public's input to guide this process, so we're building out a system that people will support and will eventually use.
Do you find that the does the marketplace out there push in any certain direction? I I, you know, I I feel like transportation is one of those areas where you see all kinds of, you know, these options for, like, you know, innovation and ideas and concepts and so on for, you know I I I remember the the news day, when the Segway came out and all the hype that was kind of around it and how it was gonna, you know, kinda, like, reimagine how we get around and things like feels like transportation's an area where you see a lot of of thinking like that. Does does that kind of stuff there may not even be an answer to this, but does that kind of stuff challenge or create opportunities for things like this, thinking about more efficient and friendlier ways to get around and the possibilities of you know, is there stuff to kinda grab from in that?
Yeah. There really is a a wide range of opportunities for what we like to think about as integration of choices. So, you know, things like, a few years ago when the electric scooters just descended on cities all over North Carolina. You know, micro mobility devices like that can be an important part of expanding the reach of your transit system, but you need to be able to think about and articulate how and where those are staged to be transit supportive. You know, we think about it too as some of those things like autonomous vehicles and autonomous shuttles are are starting to, you know, work their way through the process of becoming more realistic. Realistic. Mhmm. You know, how our plan can be flexible enough to absorb those changing opportunities and, you know, right size the investment in those things. I know some of the things we've been, talking with Reggie and his team about are services like micro transit, which is a different type of service that requires a technology integration, but still ties back to your transit system as a whole.
So are are there questions that, are still kinda hanging out there, things that are maybe still kind of, maybe a data mystery or, pieces of information that you'd like to have that would, you know, maybe help, at least tell the story about this to to help with, you know, public support and so on. Are there questions you have to answer?
From from a transit perspective, from my perspective, the study was done was well done, and we gathered a lot of information from a lot of stakeholders. And as far as more data, I don't think we can get we can get any more data more than not more than what we already have, but will will help us as moving forward with the final plan is we talked about which mentioned economic development early and economic mobility earlier. Folks will need to understand the importance of those two items, especially with the growth around Greensboro with the businesses that are moving here and how this plan can assist those businesses with economic development. And, you know, I talk about economic mobility, getting those folks who don't have cars, to and from work in this plan would be a great help to them.
Yeah. I think one of our one of the channel things that the staff will be challenged with is as we bring this to adoption and start working on securing the financial resources we'll need to implement the plan, is using that data to help paint a picture of the future that people cannot just understand, but start to get really excited about, about how these investments make Greensboro a better place to live and support households being successful in our community and providing new and different ways to access jobs that might have been out of their reach before.
So this podcast, all different kinds of people listen to it, but, I I'd say the the the biggest piece of the pie is, people who work in in government, usually local government at at some level, elected or staff or and and it's I I I appreciate that because it's it's a great idea sharing thing. So we can talk about things that are happening in certain cities, and someone might be listening and thinking, you know, this is a good fit for for my city too. You know, something like this may not be the most appropriate question for, you know, every municipality in North Carolina, but, indeed, other cities might be in a position where they can think about these things the same way, Greensboro is. Do you have any advice for anybody who might be, kind of wading into this? Is this something that the city does in house? Do you partner with a with a an outside agency that helps with the expertise in the organization? Or what what are some of the basics that maybe someone else might, have a question about if they wanted to get into a project like this?
Well, we, we received a grant, first off, to a planning grant to do the study, and we have a consultant team, Jerry Walker and Associates, a consulting team that has helped us put the plan together. And they're actually helping us. I use their term, reimagining our system. And they've done that done this in other cities around the country. Now they're doing it here for us here in Greensboro to make transit better for everyone, not just those transit transit dependent folks, but getting folks out of cars and getting them on to trains. So, yes, other municipalities could look at what we're doing and look at what other cities are doing when we reimaging their bus system Mhmm. To meet the public need.
Yeah. And I think, you know, Greensboro is fortunate to have really talented staff in both the transit group and our transportation planning group, but this was an instance where contracting for these services was really critical to have that outside perspective. So my you know, if I were giving advice to someone thinking about this, you know, for their own community is be really thoughtful about how you know, what are the the outcomes you're looking for? You know, what is it that you wanna get out of this contracted opportunity? And then being really clear about how you are selecting your vendor. What what is it about them and their experience that you want to leverage, and take advantage of in your own place. The other thing I would, say is be prepared to to do a lot of engagement. But I think that was probably such a huge cornerstone of our project. And, you know, I think most of us who work in public sector and in local government realize that public engagement takes a lot of time, and it can take a lot of money out of a contract. So being prepared and not not having sticker shock about that component of of a planning process like this Mhmm. Would be something I would pass along as, you know, things that we we learned along the way.
I I really like that too. The, the the potential with the the the data gathering and, you know, what you can kind of learn about yourself, you know, today as a city. And and and the motivations, of course, you know, people need to get to jobs. People need access to, you know, health care or or a way to get to their doctors, their you know, all kinds of things. But, you know, if if you have children and, you know, all the it it's just it doesn't take us long to think about all the things we need to do in a day that may require, some kind of transportation longer to walk practically. And to to to kinda hold that, that that is as an you know, it's it's an economic development issue. It's it's a community health issue. There there's there's so much there, and I feel like there's so much you could pull out of it that could maybe inform other initiatives too. It just seems like it's a it's such a great exercise at the minimum, and the specific goal is is fantastic about improving your community. And especially if you have that much buy in from the people who have responded to your surveys. I mean, this is local government in action, you know, to kinda take your community's pulse and be able to do something about it. And, it's it's a really great thing. I really appreciate your your time today talking to us.
Well, thanks for the opportunity. It was great to talk with you. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Since the recording of that interview in late twenty twenty four, the Go Burrow draft plan there in Greensboro has been finalized, and the transportation department is, as I speak now, getting ready to present it to the city council and the Metropolitan Planning Organization in the coming weeks for next steps. Looking at statistics gathered by the state and federal government, North Carolina's various public transportation systems across the state serve roughly 70,000,000 passengers a year. The Federal Bureau of Transportation Statistics said transit ridership was just shy of 69,000,000 in 2018, and that was a 25% increase over the ten year period leading up to that. The state DOT says there were about 70,000,000 public transit passengers in 2019. And the number is increasing. The number of registered vehicles has increased by a lot as well. The vast majority of North Carolinians traveling to work do so by car alone, like 80% or more, which is roughly on par with the, the national average. About 10% carpool, and the rest take public transit or a bicycle or they walk or take a taxi or an Uber or they work from home. But there are a lot of conversations in those numbers about growth and what we're doing to accommodate growth and make it work for people and think differently and all the things we do to not only live viably, but to really compete and grow as a state. On this podcast, Municipal Equation, we're all about exploring the different ideas that our local communities are looking at, talking about, investing in, experimenting with. I'd love to hear your feedback about our conversation today. I'd love to hear your ideas from your municipality, not just about transportation necessarily, but about anything you're doing to adapt and keep tabs on the long range, and what changes we're trying to roll with as the times remain so dynamic. My name is Ben Brown. I work with the North Carolina League of Municipalities, and you can email me at bbrown@nclm.org. Again, Ben Brown is my name. I'm with the NC League of Municipalities online at n c l m dot o r g. And this is just one method of communication we have, this podcast Municipal Equation, which has been around for a long time at this point. But we've also got our regular newsletters like the league letter or the need to know newsletter that members get toward the end of each month. And of course, we also have Southern City Magazine, which covers the great work we're doing together as municipalities. The league's motto is working as one, advancing all. And I appreciate hearing from you and having conversations together through our many communications platforms like this podcast. And of course, we'll keep you posted on events we have coming up as well, like the Town and State Dinner, which pairs local government officials with their state legislators, And of course, our annual conference, City Vision. We're getting ready for that too. So let's all stay in touch and keep the talk going in the meantime. Thanks for listening today to Municipal Equation. This is Ben Brown.