Episode 95: Municipal EVs
Are electric vehicles, or EVs, right for your municipal fleet? They've surged in everyday popularity over the past 20 years and now are available from most of the mainstream automakers. Increasingly, governments and agencies are bringing on EVs, and peers are researching the merits. But EVs have evolved a lot, and it's easy to talk about them in general conversation with outdated info. So, we reached out to an expert to better understand today's context and possibilities with municipal government use. On this episode, guest John Bonitz of the NCSU Clean Energy Technology Center helps us out with questions about EVs, market points, costs, infrastructure needs and more. Notes: John Bonitz, NCSU Clean Energy Technology Center
Top Keywords
- charging 0.018
- vehicles 0.017
- electric 0.014
- vehicle 0.013
- fleet 0.008
- electric vehicles 0.006
- electric vehicle 0.006
- charging infrastructure 0.005
- duty 0.005
- fleets 0.005
- might 0.005
- level 0.005
Transcript
From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns. Hello, and welcome to Municipal Equation, the podcast about cities and towns from the North Carolina League of Municipalities. I'm Ben Brown. This podcast for a pretty good long time now has been a place to check into conversations and topics that are just kind of in the air. Not necessarily the most pressing news of the day, but, you know, the I mean, it could be, but just just topics that are kind of right on the outside of that that people have been maybe talking about more or have a reason to familiarize themselves with a little bit more, you know, catch up on rather than to be, you know, a critical table pounding talk about the urgent matter on the ground right now. I mean, we do that kind of thing too on this podcast. But what what I've liked about it going back many years now is just using it as a space to pick up a topic that people are starting to think more about, you know, maybe due to market trends or something on TV or an intermittent, you know, news rhythm for a certain kind of topic and just check-in on where we're at with it, what matters right now, what's true right now, what's outdated, you know, what so so it's kind of in that spirit today that I'm bringing on a guest who works, in the space of EVs, more of a broad space than that, but but does have, subject matter expertise on EVs, electric vehicles, and, you know, whether we're getting to a point in the marketplace where we're, you know, really going to see more of these in places where we didn't see them quite so much before, including in municipal fleets and municipal government at all, you know, whether that's that's feasible. Now I I know some of our cities and towns have already done it. They've already added EVs to their fleets and, you know, to different extents. You know, we see that, and we talk about that a little bit on this episode. But just to catch up overall as a group together, you know, we might have had different conversations or different thoughts in our minds over the past, you know, say, you know, twenty years on whether EVs are anything to take seriously, or are they just some hyped up trend on the mentality that we need to reduce reliance on fossil fuels or whatever it is. We've heard lots of different positions and opinions about EVs over the years and whether they're worth it. And then as things go, you know, technology improves and improves, and we might get to a point where the criticisms that we've had in our mind about EVs or any other technology, you know, might be outdated or based on some old facts that technology has already, you know, get kind of addressed or answered. Or there might be new questions about them. This is all to say, I've wanted to brush up myself on where we're at with the feasibility of electric vehicles in more of a public sense, like whether local governments are a good place for the deployment of EVs, that kind of thing. I'm not an expert at all. But while asking around, I got connected to someone within our membership, incidentally, a town commissioner in Pittsboro, who happens to work in that space. So, again, this episode doesn't represent any, you know, policy push or opinion or anything like that. It's just to kind of answer some of the basic questions on what's what with EVs today since the market share of them seems to be growing. We see more on the road. So let's get to that. It's a conversation I recorded just recently with John Bonitz. I mentioned he's a commissioner from Pittsboro, incidentally. But here in this interview, he's speaking from his role with the NC Clean Energy Technology Center at NC State University. We'll get to that now. Alright. So joining us today on the podcast is John Bonnitz. He's the clean transportation specialist with the NC Clean Energy Technology Center, which I believe is based in, in Raleigh. Is is that correct? And, separately a commissioner for the town of Pittsboro, not, not too far from, from Raleigh. Actually, not far from me. I'm, in Sanford. So I'm Okay. Sort of right down the road from you. So, you know, reason for having you on is, you know, I've I've just heard the question conversationally so many times from local government folks about EVs, and I think a lot of it is more observational about, you know, kind of thinking about the past, you know, ten, twenty years, what we're seeing on the road, maybe, changes in the marketplace that may lead to changes in mentalities of, like, you know, okay. Are EVs here now, or is this more of a sort of, like, an experimental thing that we're doing or, you know, the technology improves, over time? And, you know, just, we're we're hearing about, you know, like, EV dump trucks and EV fire trucks and things like that now, fleets and and and so on. So there's obviously a a, you know, a tie in intersection with, municipalities, governments, and maybe ways we can save money if that's, you know, part of the equation. Now, so a lot of different manifestations, you know, so to speak. And it I I I guess, what what, you know, what what do you think we are thinking about at the municipal level in terms of, you know, a lot of people might not be experts on this and, are, even if they have a lot of experience in government, marketplace, things like that. You know, the the gas powered vehicle, I I know more about than I know about EVs, you know, but but we're transitioning. What what do you think are some of the the questions out there right now? Maybe some of the mentalities, you know, just things that might be one people might be wondering and, sort of the the the space of jurisdiction and how we can fit EVs into that if we're going that way. What what are you hearing right now? Yeah. That's a great question.
And, you know, in my my daily work for NC State University's clean tech center, we get lots of different questions from municipalities and fleet managers, particularly. That's mostly our audience. And, the those questions differ dramatically from the ones that we hear from the general public. So many people in the public just think, oh, well, EVs are very expensive or they're a hassle or they think about exceptional events like battery fires. And so it it's a very different conversation with professionals in, local government. They they are are grappling with more challenging issues than whether or not EVs are gonna save them money. Since 2019, I think it was, New York City published an article that, in a review of their entire light duty fleet, the, Chevy Bolt and the Nissan LEAF were clearly, hands down, more cost effective in terms of total cost of ownership compared to a Toyota Camry or any other comparable, gasoline engine vehicle. And that's not just because of the difference in fuel cost, but maintenance cost is so much more significant with internal combustion engine vehicles than with EVs. So there's a lot of interest in those dollar savings and, practical considerations there from from municipal audiences.
Yeah. That that that's that's definitely a consideration I had in my mind because I remember, you know, kinda thinking about to the days when, like, the Prius in hybrids and things like that were kinda rolling on to, the streets. And, there might have been some incentives that maybe caused some people to, you know, kinda look more closely of, like, you know, like, what are we giving incentives to? Are these things really up to snuff? And, you would hear things like, I don't know if these were true or not, but you mentioned, like, battery fires and things like that. And, you know, well, after five years, you gotta replace that battery, and that battery cost $20,000. And that's, you know, it's so it's not worth it. And so but, you know, thinking about maybe how technology changes and where you we might be able to be, you know, kinda tightening up that, that that side of it to where the, you know, the the total picture is cheaper than, you know and and I might be, you know, operating on outdated knowledge and assumptions on what EVs are and how, you know I mean, if if government is kind of the space of accountability, you know, that that stuff needs to be kind of, addressed and talked about. So Absolutely. You know, are we at the point of incorporating EVs into the government space, municipal government? I mean, we we we, you know, mentioned ago, I mentioned, you know, EV fire trucks and EV dump trucks and things like that. Things that exist. I just don't know, you know, how how deeply, you know, sort of embedded these things are, and acceptance of that might be in the government space if there might be a kind of, like, an accountability sensitivity? Where are we with that kind of thing just to kinda,
you know, set the tone? So I take this as a a technology deployment question. Where are we with market penetration?
Yeah. That and, and and maybe just kind of actual things we're seeing on the ground. Are there EV fleets? Are there certain kinds of vehicles that maybe, might be of particular service to the governments that are EVs, utility vehicles, or anything like that? What what are we kinda seeing in the present day? Yes. So in the light duty space,
small passenger vehicles, it's a it's a very clear picture now. And although I don't have any empirical basis for this, my gut instinct is that most fleet managers and municipalities are now at least the more sophisticated ones are now thinking of light duty vehicles, light duty EVs as the go to. It's mainly a challenge of end user acceptance and working out those, ironing out the wrinkles of infrastructure deployment. How do you charge? How do you fuel the vehicles? How do you charge them up? And we can talk about that. Mhmm. In the medium duty and heavy duty space, it is more challenging because charging those vehicles is a very significant infrastructure cost. The light duty things can be charged with a 110, 120 volt circuit, you know, any household circuit. Okay. Very small power cord, nothing fancy. The medium and heavy duty space is, yes, trash trucks, delivery vehicles, the trades trucks, bucket lift vehicles, and things like that. There's a keen interest from the private sector in those vehicles. I would say that they are all in, except for the challenge
of supply of those vehicles.
The manufacturers are simply not getting up to to scale as rapidly as many of the commercial fleets would have them. And it is also a significant challenge of of charging. That charging infrastructure is requires years of planning Okay. And significant capital investments.
Okay. Yeah. That that's something that I'm I'm sure our our members, people who work for the cities and towns of North Carolina might be wondering about in this context. You know, I I I mentioned I live in Sanford. I know where a couple different charging stations are. I I do not presently own a own an electric vehicle, but I know where to go if, you know, to to charge up. There's one, by by the grocery store near my house, there's one right downtown. But I don't know if these things are, you know, like, it does it take a a private effort to get these? Is this a public thing? Is it both? Or do do you know how that stuff works? Sure. Yeah. I think, it it might be helpful to step back just a second because I'm not sure exactly what the audience is,
understanding is, and and talk about the whole universe of charging opportunities. So we talk about levels of charging. Level one is, as I mentioned, just a very simple one ten or a 120 volt circuit household circuit. Two twenty is level two charging. And at, level two, you can achieve 50 miles of charging range extension in an hour of charging. That's a again, a 220 volt circuit. That's in a household, that's equivalent to what you would have for an electric dryer, clothes dryer, or an electric, cooking range. Okay. So it's it's commonplace. Level three or DC fast charging is significantly more expensive because it's, actually delivering direct current into the vehicle, and it is much faster as a result. One can achieve a 150 to 200 miles of range extension in an hour of charging with DC fast charging level three. So that said, it it all depends on the use case or the duty cycle of the vehicle. And not to go too deep into fleet operations, but, it it does need to have involvement at that level. Your fleet folks need to think about their entire fleet and where the opportunities are. And I should hasten to add that because we work for NC State University, we're the trusted third party, the unbiased observer, we want to present the technical information. It's not only electric vehicles that we work to promote. On our team, the Clean Transportation team at the Clean Energy Technology Center, I'm privileged to work across the entire array of technologies that are commercially proven. So long as it's commercially proven, we help people understand propane as a vehicle fuel, compressed natural gas. There was historically significant interest in biodiesel in North Carolina. Mhmm. Ethanol has has been and it continues to be a a choice for reducing tailpipe emissions. Mhmm. And then there's other things like idle reduction technologies. And so, it's it's a it's a full, toolkit. And each tool has its appropriate place.
And in terms of, of learning more, about these, about these, I guess, nuances, sort of specifically Yeah. And, technical assistance and just just kinda waiting into the space of, like, just say, hypothetically, I'm, you know but in small town, we don't have a huge staff, but, you know, things are changing and, you know, we we we wanna be ready for it. Like, is is your organization someone that we could Yep. Ask, you know, have questions about, you know, where do we go with this? How do we learn more? What do these words mean? And, you know, there's a vocabulary to it and all that. Exactly. And we provide that technical assistance and that education and training statewide.
We also do this work out of state across the Southeast Region. And, we work in partnership with organizations that are in North Carolina. They're typically housed at the COGS, the councils of government, called Clean Cities chapters. And those are Department of Energy funded organizations. And so depending on where the inquiry comes from, which territory it's in, we'll either direct it to, our Clean Cities partners, or we'll handle the inquiry ourselves. We take dozens of those a year, but we also do this concerted work where we, put on special events. We'll do clean vehicle demonstration days where we gather the vehicles and allow people to actually get hands on behind the wheel of an advanced, cleaner vehicle on, let's say, a closed racetrack Mhmm. Which is very appealing for those who really wanna understand the poor and performance of the vehicles. We also have an annual conference called the Sustainable Fleet Technologies Conference. That's happening August in Winston Salem this year. Okay. August, Winston Salem. Yep. Okay. Sustainable Fleet Technologies Conference.
Okay. And and so, are are you getting that kind of interest? You know, I I you know, there there might be the the the Charlotte level of interest and capacities and, and and abilities with staff and things like that. But what about smaller towns, as far as where they fit in?
Over the past five years, we had great interest from small towns because of the abundance of grant funding. Now that, many of the federal grants have gone away, there's a little bit, fewer calls and emails coming in, but there's still opportunities to be had. And I think that's something I really should should emphasize is the economics, and, you know, just the the hook line that, electric vehicles are no longer pilots anymore. I mean, they really are accepted and, embraced in the market by fleet managers, for profit, nonprofit, local government fleet managers, because folks are already saving real money. And an example of that is the city of Charlotte. Okay. Several years ago, they swapped a a gasoline sedan for a Nissan LEAF and they cut their per mile cost 67%. And that's that's 67%. That's an all in calculation. So, they're saving, $11,000 a year in fuel and maintenance. And so Per vehicle, it will if they Per vehicle. Okay. Yep. They switch over like that. 11,000 is the the number they were finding. Well, that's that's, what what, the city of Charlotte encountered in that particular case study. Mhmm. And each vehicle, each use case is going to be different. Mhmm. But, it gives folks an idea that that the savings are real and compelling.
So so we we do have, success stories, so to speak, or or at least encouraging positive examples of, if you do make the switch. And and I assume that's maybe how they were doing it. Was it kind of a pilot program where they were monitoring kind of the the ins and outs of it? This was several years ago. Okay. So I I assume we're you know, and and maybe policy changes by different states or or things like that. But but as far as, you mentioned, you know, grant grant funding resources, things like that. What where's that come from? How do we how do people learn more about that? Sure. Yeah. So, in North Carolina,
there are still grant funds available. They're harder to find, and I I emphasize, alternative financing sources. Mhmm. In my day job with the clean tech center, I help administer something called the CFAT, the clean fuels advanced technology grant program. CFAT,
clean fuels advanced technology program. Yeah.
CFAT. CFAT is what we call it. CFAT. And, that applies, to all 100 counties of the state, for electric vehicle charging infrastructure. We also, entertain applications for things like, propane, auto gas retrofit vehicles, or electric vehicles, and idle reduction systems. And so, there's a lot of different projects and a lot of different opportunities. We, also need to emphasize that the federal tax credit is still available, and this is an opportunity that applies to both, vehicles and charging infrastructure. And, believe it or not, it's a tax credit that's available for nonprofits and other tax exempt entities, including municipalities. So local government can tap this funding opportunity. And it's a a percentage of the outlay. The purchases must be documented. And then once that's, presented to the IRS, it's a little bit more complicated than that, but paperwork needs to be filed, and and there's a a very strict timeline that has to be followed. Many municipal finance folks probably are unaccustomed to filing taxes for their organization, but that's what you're doing is you're basically filing, a non paying tax, filing with the IRS, and then
the local government receives cash back. Okay. So so it it seems like, too, as the as the market kinda changes, I I could see maybe twenty years ago, maybe, maybe in the political space, there might be some uncertainty from different corners about, say, like, tax incentives for certain, you know, kinds of vehicles or certain kinds of things that maybe at the time people view it as more, you know, kind of experimental or are we there yet with this before we? But with the market kind of moving the way it is, I mean, do do you see financing opportunities and things like that being more plentiful and creative and flexible? Absolutely. The vehicle,
original equipment manufacturers are offering finance. There's third parties that are offering finance. There's a wide array. I think most entities, commercial banks are in the habit of lending on these vehicles. There may be a learning curve with your particular institution, and we can assist with payback analysis and and other documentation that would help compel or convince a lender to understand the the opportunity for fuel and maintenance savings.
So, I mean, this is something that we're going to be hearing about as as as time goes on. I mean, but, you know, we we we could, you know, kinda put it down as, you know, where could people, you know, go to learn more and and we've talked a little bit about that. But this is something we're probably just going to be probably going to be in the air, you know, is, It is. As as we proceed. And, you know, as as that sort of market push affects what, just the general roadways look like for everybody. Yes. Absolutely. What what what, you know, are there permitting issues, policy issue? I mean, there's gotta be policy issues and things like that. Yes. Does that does that enter the municipal space at all or is that, you know, higher DOT type stuff? Or And and thank you, Ben. That's a great hook.
Before I go into that, I wanna emphasize kind of a, a macro level perspective on the overall market. Mhmm. I think it was year before last that, the Bloomberg organization found that electric vehicles were representing 5% of the total market, space of new vehicles. And just last year, we reached the 10. Okay. So within a year or two, we went from 5% to 10% of the total sales of new vehicles, light duty vehicles being electric vehicles. So we are far past the tipping point, and for sure, to your point that this is just gonna be in the air from here on out. We need to consider these things. It's no longer a pilot scale or a passing fancy. It's it's real. And, North Carolina is home of several manufacturing projects for, electric vehicles and electric batteries and components that go into these things. Mhmm. But to the policy point, the average municipality authority having jurisdiction, AHJ planning office, is going to be encountering applications for construction of EV charging stations. And we're, we're, offering a program that helps local governments learn how to lower those barriers and speed up that process because it's a very well understood process at this point. And, leaning on the experience of larger municipalities, especially in other states, we have a whole package of model ordinances and rules and forms that can help really streamline that process so that local governments, have to spend less time on these matters and still be assured that they're safe and well built. And, it's called the Charging Smart program. Mhmm. It's a national program. It's Department of Energy funded. Okay. And, we're just one of multiple, organizations offering technical assistance on this subject in in The United States. And, here in North Carolina, we have a a cohort, right now that has, Orange County and Chapel Hill in it, Durham and Durham County, and I believe that the city of Raleigh and Cary and Holly Springs are all in that first cohort. And what they're doing is they're, we're working with them to review their policies and ordinances, to identify any possible opportunities for improvement. And, at the end of the cohort, we basically designate, a score for them, and they get a recognition of bronze, silver, or gold, recognition, for their status on the charging smart program. I think the value of this is that now that there's so little federal funding, it allows local governments to be more competitive and more visible, frankly, to the limited private investments in EV charging infrastructure. And there's quite a lot of companies that are looking to build out this private EV charging. This is the DC fast charging infrastructure mainly.
And that's the the top level That's that's fair. We're talking about availability. Yep. Level three. Mhmm.
And so if a town wants to attract the attention of these developers, this designation program is a great way to do that. Okay. So so that that signals the interest and,
are there other things that maybe smaller towns, smaller staffs, you know, less for immediate resources than, say, like, a Raleigh or Charlotte might have? Or are there any other ingredients that, maybe a small town might wanna spend a little bit more time on or extra attention to? Or Yeah. There's there's things like EV ready policies.
City of Atlanta has an EV ready policy, and that, is simply a part of their, development ordinance, package. And it it, signals to developers that if they want to do work in that area, they have to achieve certain things in their project. I can't remember the details of Atlanta, their policy, but in most cases, it's something like, every residence must be ready for the installation of an EV charger, perhaps in the garage, if there's an attached garage, or that kind of thing. And it's it's not all that challenging or or, expensive because, as I mentioned, it's a two twenty outlet is the same as what we have for a washer dryer or an electric cook stove. But having the assurance that that is ready in the garage, at point of purchase, the homeowner is able to come in and plug in their device and Mhmm. And know that they'll be able to charge their vehicle immediately upon moving in. So, EV ready policies are are good, and and there's a whole raft of others that we could talk about. As as people are interested, they're welcome to contact us. And, folks need not be a part of the charging smart program to take advantage of some of our assistance, but it's a great way. We're we're funded to to do this work. The work is free. It does require a time commitment by municipalities, but,
the counties are eligible as well. So Okay. So that that that is something I was wondering about, the level of involve involvement you might need as municipality to, say, access, draft documents of some kind that may help, you know, support something on the books there. And and with stuff like that, like demo ordinances and things like that, DC towns adapting them to their, you know, to to their own circumstances? Or, does that take special maybe consulting of some kind to see how, like, you know here here here's here's a a draft starting point.
Let's tighten it up for our town and our specifics. Yes. How does that work? Yes. Certainly. I'm I'm imagining that that each local government would want to to customize those. An interesting segue there is is, an example kind of really on the cutting edge. The City of Durham has been working for more than a year now on a take home electric vehicle charging policy. And that policy, irons out all the details, concerns of insurance, and liability, and costs, and reimbursements. And, they are the first in the region, to my knowledge, to to tread into this territory. And I think it's especially valuable. I haven't spoken with them about it yet, but I plan to and hope to do a case study on it. I think it's especially valuable because so many local governments are using vehicles as a perquisite to their staff. A take home vehicle is a nice perk on the job. It makes arriving at the duty site faster in some cases, at the work site. And so ironing out those challenges of figuring out how to deploy an electric vehicle with your town staff, and how are they gonna refuel it at home, things like that. Those questions are all being worked out by some advanced and and progressive municipalities like like the city of Durham.
Is it early or naive to think about revenue opportunities of some kind with EVs?
Is is that something that's part of the conversation at all? Yeah. You know, like, we get this question a lot too, especially from the private sector. If we install, level three charging, device at at our gas station, what kind of revenue could we expect? And we we tend to try to, inject some sobriety there because, well, first of all, in North Carolina, third party sales of electricity are allowed, but that's, that's an exemption just for EV charging infrastructure. There's not much, encouragement to increase the, the price of the electricity. So, profit making is is, pretty slim. In most cases, I think folks are are looking to sharpen their pencil really hard to get the equipment paid for. Mhmm. Now, one place where there might be some promise in future, and this is well understood in the California market where it's actually a deregulated market, and in Europe where the technology was originally proven, it's something called bidirectional charging. And in concept, it's very simple. If you can put electricity into an electric vehicle, then you should be able to take the electricity out of the vehicle and charge your house. Like the vehicle battery as a source for outflow of electricity into something? Exactly. Okay. Imagine in an emergency, if you need to keep your refrigerator running and the power is out in your entire town or neighborhood, wouldn't it be great to be able to to power your your, freezer or your, your refrigerator or your cook stove? So bidirectional charging, is known by a couple of acronyms, that that look a little bit deeper. Vehicle to grid is one concept, where the vehicle is sending electricity to the grid. Vehicle to load, or vehicle to building. And so those are V2G, V2L, V2B, those are the acronyms. And here in North Carolina, I think the shining example of that, has been demonstrated by the Roanoke Electric Cooperative in Far Northeastern North Carolina. K. It's a rural coop, so it's, maybe not as familiar to your municipal audience, but, they have proven that through the use of bidirectional charging, in in this case, it was a vehicle to building application, they saved enough money to offset the cost of the lease of two vehicles. They didn't buy the electric vehicles. They leased those two vehicles. And the savings from just avoiding peak demand charges for their building more than offset the cost of the vehicles. So it's it is compelling that's, you know, $250 a month Mhmm. Times two in that case. Folks in the utility industry view this technology as still in its development, I think they would say. I eagerly point out that the technology itself is proven. Our adoption of it still has some technical barriers. But that's more in the line of, honestly, policies and business models than it is about the technology. There are some programming challenges that I've been hearing about which are compelling, and yet I've also heard of some stakeholders who have encountered similar programming technology problems. And within hours or days, they've overcome those hurdles, whereas other stakeholders are taking weeks and months to figure out the programming. So it's not altogether clear, precisely why this technology is being delayed, but certainly in in, markets where, competition exists in the electric market, you see a much faster adoption.
Which I I guess I hadn't even thought about. I I could could have just Googled this before we started talking. But are are all the major manufacturers that we are familiar with, just car brands on the road? Are they all making EVs now? Are they recognizing that, or is there still, like, you know,
gas car pushback against this country? Pretty much. I think it test excuse me. Toyota was the last real holdout. Even three years ago, I think, maybe four, their chief executive officer was, saying some rather sobering or disparaging things about the battery electric drivetrain. And so they were all in on hybrids, but even Toyota recently has, announced, that they're offering some pure battery electric models. So, yeah, I think that most of the OEMs are doing it. There is some shakeout, of course. You notice you see a major brand like GM abandon a very popular model called the Chevy Bolt. That's that's that's sobering because, there's quite a lot of municipalities that we're very fond of those for fleet use. So, you know, I think that these are the kinds of hiccups that we will see with any kind of technology adoption curve. What can we be assured of in future change and more rapid change? So, it's going to take some nimble, thinking and careful approaches and cautious planning, but, there are certainly some opportunities to be had.
So to to reiterate a a a few things, the the the marketplace has been changing. The you know, we may have things to adapt to in real time as we go. But just for for towns that, wanna take a few steps to to at least get caught up in the conversation, feel kinda current in terms of being able to jump in as a starting point and all that. What what what do you recommend for towns of different kinds of sizes and characteristics? Sure.
Well, we do offer the, Sustainable Fleet Technologies Conference, in August and, for municipalities that, perhaps have really tight budgets, we're happy to hear from them. We can offer free registration to any municipality, local government that brings an actual cleaner vehicle to the conference. Mhmm. And for those who don't even yet own their first, EV or or other old fuel vehicle, I'm happy to receive an email, and, we can talk about the opportunities. We have some volunteer opportunities at the conference that are not too terribly cumbersome, and, people can can, if they can dedicate the time to coming to the event, that's a great way to learn. We also have a a huge list of webinars that we have produced. And, those are all archived on our website and on YouTube. And we're still planning more in the future. We've got a great one on that tax credit, and, it's called the direct pay tax credit, or the IRS calls it the elective pay tax credit. And again, that's the tax credit available for tax exempt entities. So it takes some some study to get your head wrapped around it. But, other, other opportunities, I mean, let's just look at, at price parity. I think that, the f one fifty lightning electric vehicle, the pure battery electric vehicle is $6,000 cheaper than the comparably equipped internal combustion engine lightning excuse me, f one fifty. So if you're looking for a new work truck for your fleet, it's a very compelling opportunity, from cost savings upfront. That $6,000 price difference more than pays for the charging infrastructure you would need to keep that, electric truck properly fueled. So, you know, and and Ford's got pretty good warranties. They're well established in the market. They're not going anywhere like some of the other, electric vehicle manufacturers have come and gone with bankruptcies. So, yeah, I think it's a it's a good time to stick a toe in the water and and start to get a feel for these technologies.
Okay. So I wanted to round up some takeaways here knowing that there might be some interest in the, the charging station aspect of this. So here are some leave behind bullet points from John Bonitz. He says electric vehicle charging infrastructure need not be complex, intimidating, or expensive. For many organizations, especially small towns or for vehicles with less than 50 miles of range a day, a level one charger will suffice. This is a normal 110 to 120 volt circuit, and the EV needs to be plugged in overnight or for a shift. Even with ruggedizing, level one gear can cost less than $500 or $1,000 per port. For vehicles that need to charge during the day or with duty cycles higher than 50 miles a day, level two chargers help boost a battery 10 to 20 miles of range in an hour. This needs a 108 to 240 volt circuit. And at this level, communications are often desired for accounting and record keeping. But is this really needed? Behind the fence, the cost of electricity may call into question the payback period of this hardware, software, and communications subscriptions. For public facing chargers or for interdepartmental billing, smart connected chargers are indeed necessary. For mission critical vehicles or hot seat operations, this is where DC fast charging is needed. That's that top level option that we were talking about earlier. 208 to 480 volts and may introduce issues like utility transformer upgrades, time of use charges, or peak demand charges. Certainly, Bonnet says, we recommend you speak with your utility in early phases of planning. Perhaps smaller government fleets are better off to use privately financed DC fast chargers in public spaces like gas stations or truck stops. And that's a kind of decision that will vary among interested towns. So, again, level one infrastructure, simple and cheap. Plug into any 120 volt outlet, less than a thousand dollars per port, overnight or shift length charging, perfect for vehicles logging less than 50 miles a day. Level two infrastructure, the faster top ups, 240 volt circuit adds about 10 to 20 miles of range per hour. Smart networking, smart in quotes, smart networking might be only worth the cost when you need public access or interdepartmental billing. Level three, that high level, is DC fast, mission critical, 208 to 480 volts, three phase power, delivers rapid charging turnarounds for hot seat operations or emergency fleets, but hardware is pricey and often triggers transformer upgrades plus utility peak demands or TOU charges. And just a few more tips. Bonnet says mind the ROI, the return on investment. If your charger will be behind the fence, do you really need to pay extra for level two hardware, software, and subscription fees? So there's a question mark on that. At 12¢ per kilowatt hour or about $7 per full charge, it might not make economic sense. You should call your utility early. Engage them during planning to avoid surprises on infrastructure costs and electric billing rates. And looking at small fleets, Bonnet says you can outsource fast charging using privately financed public DC fast stations, like the kinds you see at gas stations or at truck stops. That can beat owning your own high cost equipment. So there's some flexibility as ways of moving forward, ways of helping to decide if this kind of thing is right for you. Again, credit to our guest, John Bonitz, for that info.
Thanks for listening. Thanks again to our guest, John Bonitz. I hope I asked some of the same questions that you might have had on your mind about EVs and whether and how they fit into the municipal government space. Obviously, there's a ton more questions out there. And if if there's a particular question or a thought that you'd like to bring to my attention, please share. I'm at bbrown@nclm.org. Again, b brown for Ben Brown. Bbrown@nclm.org. Just type municipal equation or EVs into the subject line so I can keep an eye out for it. Again, bbrown@nclm.org. NCLM stands for North Carolina League of Municipalities. Nclm.org is our website where you can learn all about us, what we do, why we do it. Working as one, advancing all is our tagline. More than 540 municipalities across North Carolina in our membership, mountains to the coast, large and small, all kinds working together. If there's a topic you'd like me to pursue or if you have a great story from your municipality, please let me know. I'd love to talk about it with you. We, we love highlighting great individual ideas and stories from our cities and towns across the state. So let me know. Bbrown@nclm.org. I'm gonna let you go for now, but thank you so much for listening. Lots of cool stuff ahead. With Municipal Equation and the North Carolina League of Municipalities, I'm Ben Brown.