From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns.

thanks, Ben. Thanks for first of all, thank you for having me today, for a little bit. My pleasure. Yeah. I've been doing this, about twenty seven years now. Last nine years, I've been as a town manager in Cary. And then fifteen of that, prior to coming to Cary was as the city manager, and then prior to that, the assistant city manager and budget director of Elgin, Illinois. Illinois is my home state, and then there were, several other since before that smaller. But those have been the most, substantial, if you will, positions I felt in local government. So, yeah, I've been been doing it a while now.

Sure. Sure. Well, top of the arc means, a recognition that, yeah, whether you're, a country, you could be America, you could be, a private industry corporation like Kodak, or you could be a municipality town of Cary, that's having success and, seen in a certain way, in your respective field or industry, and that not taking that success for granted. And and realizing when you're at the top is when you're the most vulnerable. Because, there are we've learned over time many, many, many examples, codec being one of them, is that if you think that your success is going to last in perpetuity, it's a guarantee that it will not. And so when the town of Cary was looking for a town manager, in doing my research, Cary was in the process of adopting something called Imagine Cary. Imagine Carry 2040 and essentially, a a recipe for how does carry, stay carry, but evolve and adapt and change because, the suburban model that brought Cary to what it is today likely would not be sustainable into the future. And so when I saw that here to this community is, this this group of elected officials that they've identified in order to stay at the top of the arc, that they have to adapt and evolve and as and without any signs of failure. So you have to actually have to start changing before it happens to you. And so that's what impressed me so much, and so it drew me to the community. And I just happened to coin that, you know, I'm here to help keep Carrie at the top of the arc something that you've already identified, which is really important because it's a lot harder to convince people that they have a problem when they don't have a problem, but when it's already been identified already. And then I've just built upon that with my with my colleagues and with community members and certainly with the town council and the mayor since I've been here.

the decision to write a a book was certainly, a long and winding road. It was, something that I was very reluctant to do. And what got me over the hump, was, really wisdom by, a colleague of mine named Susan Moran that, thought that, look. Some of the things that are happening here could be really helpful to other local governments and to other communities. And so, and she knew that was something that would resonate with me is that we have an obligation to share this message and whatever wisdom we have, that can be beneficial to other people and other communities, and then you'll have a greater impact. And so what we've tried to do is put a book forward that in particular in the local government space, although it might have some interest outside of that, but particularly in the local government space that there are some lessons that we've learned that we feel could be helpful to other communities as they try, to maintain, their communities going forward into an ever changing, more challenging world.

that? Yeah. So it's really, this concept of challenging preconceived notions of what it is to be a government employee per se or a, a local government entity. And so kind of having that be the mindset of for those of our partners or mem or citizens in our community, changing their expectations of what can be expected of local government. And so it can, mean a lot of different things, but essentially that is, wanting to really kind of stand out and be a completely different experience and taking a completely different approach while also recognizing that we are in fact a a local government.

kinda the gist? Yeah. Absolutely. On continuing to taking those things that are preconceived that, these are either impossibilities or certainties and really challenging those certainties and seeing what comes of it. And so, a good example, would be, when I arrived, there was a lot of a debate whether the site is now currently the downtown park, if that should be a mixed use site or it should be a park. The idea that these are two very different and distinct kind of pathways. Well, the third option is to, not see them as mutually exclusive. Is that an economic development project and a recreational project can be one and the same If you design it in a very kind of ambitious way, you can have it all. So that's an example of kinda getting out of that, you know, binary thinking and doing something, really more in a grander space that creates more value, for the public.

Yeah. So I've learned through time is that, if, if you if you emphasize structure, you are going to, limit mistakes, which are also going to greatly limit your potential because it it makes, outcomes much, much more predictable. And what I would, prefer is while you may have a little introduce a little bit more unpredictability, I don't wanna limit the potential of the staff of the town of Cary. And to do that requires there to be, more overlap, there to be a flatter of kinda flatten the hierarchy and ask everybody to kind of look at their, roles differently as more of partners together, versus this person's this person's boss and the town managers here, and we work very hard to do that. And so, you know, you you take people over structure all all every day of the week, but you do have to accept a certain, level of of of unpredictability.

on what we're working on. Absolutely. Yeah. Not necessarily that it has a negative connotation, but it does for me. And so, I think the worst thing that I could ever be called by someone is their boss. Mhmm. I don't wanna be someone's boss. I wanna be someone's partner. I wanna be someone's colleague. And, and and the important thing there is it has it has to be some it has to be genuine. That's something that, I learned from mentors of mine is that, I'm not the boss. I just play a certain role. And if there has to be, a tie breaker decision, I'm that's the role that I play. But the idea of of the ideas of many always outweigh the ideas of the few. And and when you're relying upon hierarchy, you are making, a decision, a very active decision to limit creativity and to limit the number of minds that are involved on a certain topic or project. And I just don't think how could that ever be a good idea outside of more of an emergency situation? And so for our public safety areas, yeah, like, we're it's not everyone's idea counts if we're dealing with a hurricane. K? But while we were originally designed to be a hierarchy, dealing with situations that benefit from a hierarchy are about one to 2% of the time. And the rest of the time, we're engaged in idea sharing, creativity, working with citizens on very challenging problems, and where hierarchy gets in the way of all of that.

there's also room in the organization for for those people that, prefer more structure. They prefer answers versus cocreation. As long as it's not in the wrong, position because we still have positions. Right? We still have an org chart. That is just fine. And so it's really putting you know, using, Jim Collins. Right? Putting people in the right seat on the bus. But I realized a long time ago, and you you're really pointing to this, Ben, and I kinda phrase it like this is most local governments are designed the goal is not success. The goal is to not fail, and they are not one in the same. If your goal is to not fail or to not get in trouble or to however you wanna label it, you have locked out the ultimate levels of success. And so you, best have moderate success because success was the secondary goal. And so when you want success to be the primary goal, you then invite in more space for failure. And, and what I have found, I like to talk about a lot is, you know, we're not, operating on anyone's brain. Okay? So, a neurosurgeon cannot make a mistake because the consequences are so grave. Right. Outside of our treating of potable water or outside of, you know, certainly the police department and the fire department, those things that, you know, we where you have to put not making a mistake first, which is a small part of the organization. When you flip it on that, if we make mistakes, they can be fixed pretty easily use most of the time. And then all that requires is people being comfortable raising their hand admitting, yeah. I was trying something. I was innovating, and I made a mistake. Like, okay. So we learned from that. Let's try something else. And when people do make a mistake, it's not enough to tell them that's okay. You have to celebrate them. You have to celebrate them so people can see, like, keep trying, keep making mistakes because you're on the pathway to doing something great. And which is different than a self inflicted wound. So I call it self inflicted wound where you just weren't paying attention enough. Right? And so those are very different, and lots of times they get all get labeled as mistakes. But, self inflicted wounds are a lack of attention or you should have known something that was very obvious you didn't know. I I I was a self inflicted wound that I did not bring an umbrella last night with me to Downtown Raleigh when every forecast said there was a 100% chance of rain. That wasn't a mistake. That was a self inflicted wound, and I was drenched. Okay? And so it, making mistakes in the pursuit of excellence are to be celebrated.

depends on the community that you're working in. Mhmm. And so, there's huge built in advantages being able to service the town manager and carry. So a community that was, populated by, SaaS employees, IBMers, people that, then, created an influence to local government and expected, you know, let's use science, let's use data, let's use technology to really create some things because they were doing in their personal life and in their professional life. And so, that mentality has permeated Carrie well before I arrived. Mhmm. And so there's there's an acceptance of those things. And in other communities that have a different story, right, a different background, you you might have to have technology and those pathways be much, much more proven versus experimental. And that's what's that's one of the challenges of of writing, a a book like Top of the Arc is, you're certainly not saying, like, this is a recipe that could be duplicated in any community. Definitely not saying that. What you are saying is you can probably implement, or duplicate a lot more of these than you realize, but certainly not all of them. And then there are other successful strategies that might work in another community that would not work so well in Carrie. And so it's a way of that duality of recognizing there are some unique differences. Recognize those, align with those, but not have that be your sole driver of how you're gonna move forward.

You've mentioned, I think, like, three one one systems, for example. Maybe you could pick it up from there. Sure. Well, I think a part of it is, there is very unfortunately, in this country, there is very, very little understanding of of and teaching of civics, you know, in in grade school, middle school, high school. Most of the time, I believe, I read several years ago that you get maybe a day or two on local government at all. That's all you get. And so, even in a in an educated community like Cary, there's very, little understanding of where our, roles and responsibilities kind of begin and end. So it's then becomes incumbent on, staff to, really be in an educated mode, helping people understand. So to educate first, answer second. But educate in responsive way, not in a way of, well, you just don't understand. This is why we can't do it. But finding a way to communicate with them, and that comes through systems like a three one one, which is which is a perfect example. So, Carrie Carrie did not need a call center to provide, great services to the community. What 311 does for us is, the reason why it's not a call center, it's an it's, a citizen based advocacy center, is we don't encourage people to get off the phone as quickly as possible and to answer as many calls as possible because you're creating public value by engaging with that citizen. Spend time with them as much time as they wanna spend, not only on that topic, but on other topics as well. And over time, that builds incredible trust. It builds a more knowledgeable community about your local government. And with more understanding of the roles, goals, and or limitations of what, your local government can do, you can just produce much better results. So, using technology to create real engagement versus technology utilized to have there be less engagement. And as we all know, it can be both ways. Is social media bring people together, or does it pull them apart? Right. I could be doing all of us can give examples of both. Mhmm. But in three one one, it brings together because you're create you're not pushing that to be, you're using a technological tool to create face to face or interpersonal communication, which is always better. That's just not always the most efficient way.

good and responsibility and all that? Yeah. So there is, a very little, coverage of, of AI in top of the arc, which is good because that just means I have to then do a follow-up. Because Mhmm. Now for the last several months, certainly for the majority of this year, it's, I think I've had three meetings already today, and they've all been some way about AI. I firmly believe that AI is going to, change local government, creating the local government doesn't exist even in a a way much deeper than what, the introduction of of the web did, because of its ability to not only take, a lot of jobs and automate them, but also to take certain jobs and make them, much more efficient. So police officers, can spend much less time on preventive patrol and much more time on community engagement because of the cameras and of the drones and some of these things. And so, I just don't think that we can be talking about and working on AI too much. And so there's huge pushes that are happening at the town of Cary, and it's starting to happen in local government. As, I went to, a class earlier in the year and happened to be at Harvard, and they demonstrated how much, investment there was by the private sector versus the public sector. And you can imagine, of course, the gap was big. Right. And so but local governments are gonna benefit from all of that spending that's occurring on the at the private in the private sector and being able to kind of watch and learn from those things. But we're, you know, we're starting a big AI push.

Yeah. I'm really glad you said that, because this has been a very real thing for me. So what it I think what it requires, especially with something like AI, is to be completely vulnerable with those you're serving, your your your colleagues, your employees, the citizens. And so the way I like to do it is to tell my personal story. And when my personal story on AI is, throughout 2024, I viewed AI as this as, oh, boy. Here I am, you know, 52 years old. There's this another huge wave coming. I really don't wanna deal with it. Mhmm. Versus how I felt ten years earlier at 42, excited about it. It's harder at 52. And so but I knew that if I didn't adapt so there wasn't this natural excitement over this new wave. There was this wave is coming, and I have an obligation to take it seriously. And so I jump in in early twenty January 2025 and decide I gotta learn everything I can about AI. And and then sharing with all Tom and Carey employees exactly that is if you're scared or tired of dealing with new things like AI, I get you. I was too. I was too. But that's not a sustainable choice. Now, now it's and so you have to. So follow my lead. So I want my message to be authentic. I want it to be, so if there's someone in the audience sitting there thinking, oh, not another thing. I get that. And then at the same time, I can lead by example. And, like, it was hard for me too, but I'm doing it. And so I'm documenting and and talking about how I'm going on this AI journey internally to encourage other people or her doing it. And so, but just that that authenticity becomes very, very important. And I think in in a to be in work in an adaptable organization, which is you have to be adaptable, let's say, at the top of the arc, it you have to get to the point where the questions are more satisfying to you than the answers.

The actual process of questioning and learning has to be more satisfying than answers. Because people say, well, tell me, Sean, what is specifically, what's AI how's the town of Cary gonna look in five years because of AI? My answer is, I don't know. But I know I'll we'll figure it out, and I know we're figuring it out. And and he asked me in a year, and I'll have some very specific themes that are developing. Ask me in two years, and I'll have even more themes. And ask me in three years, and I'll have a lot of implementation. But today, I don't know. And anyone who says they know, they have the answer. They're, they're exaggerating. Mhmm. Or they're it's a it's a hope based strategy, but it's not one based upon, any type of evidence because we're all new to

I mean, that that's that that's the the the fun exciting part of it for me. Oh, yeah. I I think so. It'd be, you know, we're also fortunate to be able to work in areas where you can see the direct and immediate, positive impact on people's lives. And, there's just not a lot of other industries, including, you know, larger, levels of gov federal and state government. It's it's much more difficult to do that. It's much more nuanced, and it's much more direct in in local government. And so, yeah, we're we're very fortunate.

Yeah. I think if it's, some things I I do think first and foremost from more of a, an internal point of view, so so thinking of the government itself. If if you have a very clear and well defined hierarchy, you you will not accomplish the highest level of success in tackling the most difficult adaptive challenges. You just won't. You're you're likely, probably not gonna experience any major failures either, but you've limited the potential. So if hierarchy is important, if certainty is important, if having answers is important, then it it's best not to embark on this journey. And so but if you're more comfortable in, having less emphasis on roles, on having, there be more voices in the room And, again, in the more voices in the room, sometimes, every time, I wanna do something and I'm here, I'm in a moment where I'm just I wish I didn't have to run this by seven people. I always say to myself, well, when I came here, I didn't. I didn't have to run it by anyone. But now I I have to I have to submit to the own culture that I introduced to the town to Cary, and it always produces better results. But it's not more efficient, which is okay, because you can't you never wanna be efficient on the most important things. Your your goal is to be effective. And so if efficiency is the goal, it must not be a major challenge to begin with. And so I I think the hierarchy becomes very, very important. And it also requires, elected officials or a community that, supports its local government and meaning supports it, meaning that, being able to fail, being able to make mistakes, and and embracing those. So, embarking on a software implementation that's expensive, but doesn't end up working as well as you'd hoped it would have worked and not have, have conversations about learning from that, turning lemons into lemonade versus they're being trying to figure out who we blame. Right? Because once an organization starts, assigning blame, and when really the blame is often with many, many people, you you you teach people a very important lesson. And the lesson then becomes excellence or success is not the major goal. It's don't ever mess up. And so that is a thing that can be applied in any community and really any community. And, you know, communities that are trying to reinvent themselves. So, communities that are kind of hit rock bottom and really are feeling more of a a fight for its survival, the acceptance of mistakes goes way up. And so those are, and I spent my time working in those on communities that are trying to rebuild itself. So you think like Durham's story, very positive story. They obviously spent a lot of time not worrying so much about failure, but we're here and the only way to get here is to do it. And and kudos to them. It's communities like Cary, communities that have had decades of success that are the most vulnerable because they, they're not adapting. Doing what you're doing, what you've always done is a recipe that you will not be in the same position. And so and that's where stories, you know, it was announced this week that Kodak might have to cease operations. And, you know, Kodak invented digital film, and then digital film was actually implemented by Fuji, and they were never the same. And they had 80% of the film market. Right? 80% at one point. And so, and I happen to, have a have a relative that was, in the in in the corporate high up in the corporate organization is and he's will share stories with me about how they they didn't just assume that their success would be in perpetuity. They knew it. Mhmm. They knew it to the point they would they when they talked about Fuji, it was to lampoon them, not to say, hey. We've got a competitor. And so and then by the time they realized that a competitor was too late. So, you know, those are the types of stories, really, I spend a lot of time really being coming up obsessed with understanding why organizations fail more than why organizations are successful. And learning why they fail, you learn how to keep them successful. And so I have, along with others, charged with the responsibility of Carrie of keeping Carrie at the top of the arc, keeping Carrie, Carrie. And that means assuming that it's not gonna stay at the top of the arc. And, thus, if you always feel like that potential is there, then the likelihood you will becomes much greater.

certainly, like everything else, it's on Amazon. Right? In both, digital and then certainly in in print format. I'm certain that there are plenty other ways. I the the team here knows. I don't know. I just keep directing everybody to, Amazon. And so that's probably the easiest and best way to get it. And if someone prefers not to, get it there, they can certainly contact me or the town of Carriam. We'll we'll make sure we connect you.