Did you know your surplus vehicles, equipment, and assets could generate new revenue for your community? GovDeals helps local government agencies sell surplus assets through a trusted online marketplace, reaching millions of buyers while maintaining transparency, compliance, and control throughout the process. GovDeals. A tech tip from VC three. Free public Wi Fi may be convenient, but it's also risky. Hackers can intercept your data or trick you into connecting to fake networks that look legitimate. This can expose your emails, sensitive and confidential data, and even login credentials to hackers. If you find yourself at an airport, coffee shop, hotel, or other place with public Wi Fi, keep the following in mind. Avoid using public Wi Fi for work whenever possible. If you must connect, use a VPN to encrypt your data or use a personal hotspot for a more secure connection. Be cautious of pop ups asking for login information. Never access sensitive systems such as financial or HR platforms on unsecured networks. A little extra caution while traveling or working remotely can go a long way toward protecting your municipality's data. This tech tip from VC three. From the North Carolina League of Municipalities, this is Municipal Equation, a podcast about cities and towns. Hello, and thanks for joining us on Municipal Equation. I'm Ben Brown. It is September 2026 and on this episode we've got two great guests. We're gonna be talking about a program that many of you in the North Carolina municipal leadership world have already participated in or completed and more getting into it, so you might have heard of this program. We've had it available for years and we've got more ahead as you've seen in the other newsletters. I'm talking about Commit to Civility. Again, Commit to Civility. It's a certification program we do that's really worth looking at. It's not just a pep talk about being civil to one another in our discourse and leadership, it's not just ice cream and smiles, there's an actual science, a skill set which really comes in handy for government and community leaders dealing with dynamic issues, you know, some of which can lead to really high temperature discussions sometimes to put it mildly. Just think of the issues where you live and the issues, you know, the the things that bring people out to public meetings and how it's not necessarily unusual for things to sometimes flare up. Basically, what Commit to Stability does to read it straight from the description is promote stability in local government and recognize those governing boards that dedicate themselves to this approach. It engages and challenges municipal officials to embrace stability through the course of their work within their communities. Commit to civility equips leaders with the information and skills to maintain composure and move through emotionally charged situations with a respectful and solutions oriented approach. Once your municipality has agreed to commit to fostering civility through the course of its business, then can begin the work of achieving the commit to civility certification. This program is free for league members and consists of a multi step process that works with at least 75% of the municipalities board. So that's from the program description. So what we're going to do in this episode is give you more of an of an impression of the thinking behind this program and how it works. Like I said a lot of cities and towns have gone through this program with their governing boards and we have offerings ahead on it like one we've got October 1. October 1 is a virtual training that we're doing online with commit disability. You can register at nclm.org. If you want you can just go to the search window at nclm.org and type in commit disability or look at our events calendar. You'll also see a deeper dive into commit disability in November, that's November 18. That one's going to be in person. So that's kind of a next level of commit disability. Again, check our events calendar and our newsletters for updates and new opportunities, but we want to sort of use this episode to set the tone and discuss the why and what this program seeks to to do and how it's more than just accepting the concept of civility. So our guests today are doctor Linda Jordan PhD, an expert in this field in addition to being the mayor of Butner, North Carolina, so she knows the field on both ends and joining us also is Vicki Miller, our director of learning and development here at NCLM and she's been involved with and leading this program since inception. A lot of good stuff to hear on this episode about Commit Disability and we'll go to

I'm joined now by Doctor. Linda Jordan, PhD, and Vicky Miller of the North Carolina League of Municipalities. Thank you so much for being here. Vicky, I I wanna start with you. We're talking about, Commit to Civility. This is a program that we've offered for a few years now. We've had great participation. I just wanna ask you what you know, if you could set some terms about what Commit to Civility is, why we do it, how long we've been doing it, you know, how to get involved, that sort of thing. Absolutely. Well, thank you,

Yeah. So, Vicky Miller, thank you, director of, learning and development for NCLM. So this is a topic that, you know, we could put in the realm of, you know, politics and government and pressing issues and things like that. But I think is is you're kind of alluding to with so many things at the end of the day, it's really about, you know, being a human and kind of knowing ourselves and how we communicate and how we try to be understood and, you know, hold other people to account, just the things that we do as people to, you know, get through this world. And, you know, it's it's a crazy world for everybody in one way or another. We may have different reasons, you know, for for why we may think that, but we're all trying to get through it, you know, maybe in a broader sense. But, doctor Jordan, so I've been introducing you by your academic titles, but, you're a mayor as well, and you have municipal experience. And and, you know, as an elected official, you dealt with the public. And to start, you know, some people might assume the word civility is just about being polite. But what comes to mind for you when it comes to, you know, civility, particularly in the context of elected office or constituent services?

Right. Well, thank you, Ben. And thank you for having me here as and Vicky, thank you for the invitation. When it comes to civility, the first thing that comes to my mind is being respectful. Now, what goes along with that is we as elected officials, we need to, first of all, we take care of our own emotions and and we want to recognize and be aware of what our emotions are so that we can then be respectful of the other person's emotions. And oftentimes we think about ourselves and not really realizing what that other person may be going through. And so, therefore, that causes that rift in those conversations. So, the deeper dive really takes you more into the emotional intelligence aspect of how people feel and then how we communicate that verbally to others.

And so, we mentioned your elected experience, and, you know, you've witnessed it difficult times, in one way or another, I'm sure, you know, and you've been in the position of having to cool things out. You know, what what comes to mind from maybe, past times where you've had to deal with difficult situations?

I would say, so, yes. I've been in politics for over twenty years and I've been a mayor. I'm on my second term. What comes to mind is that, we as elected officials have to be mindful when our citizens or constituents come in and they have a concern or need, and they're very emotional about it, whether it's the the right thing to do or not. But they're very emotional about it. And we as leaders, elected officials, elected officials, we have to be mindful of how that person is feeling. But most importantly, be respectful of what they're sharing. And even though it may not pass, you know, through the board or whatever the case may be or it's not a good fit, we need to recognize that that person has taken the time to bring that issue or concern to us. And then take that information, follow through with them along the way, you know, irregardless of what the outcome is, but but keep them informed. And oftentimes, what happens is that when citizens bring a concern, they may speak at a town meeting or a board meeting and share, and then it's kinda like left and no one, you know, follows up with them. So then they become frustrated, and that's very understandable. So we have to be very mindful of what we're hearing, how we respond, when we respond, and making sure that we are respectful in all that we do, irregardless of how long it may take to get a resolution, but you still wanna continuously follow-up with that person so they know that you haven't forgotten about them.

Right. It it can be kind of inflaming to, you know, step up and announce your issue and then, you know, feel like it's not going anywhere, you weren't heard, or you're being ignored, or there's no follow-up, that sort of thing. And, you know, all all kinds of issues from all kinds of corners can come, up to the podium at the public comment section. And, you know, as we've seen whether you know? I mean, I mean, there there are issues in the air right now that have brought people out en masse. And sometimes, you know, especially if people show up in groups, there can be a lot of spirit and emotion. Is there is there something we can draw from the level of emotion and intensity that we do sometimes see in these communities, maybe something to understand about how people react in sensitive or volatile situations? You know, there's the science and psychology side of it that I'm sure you're familiar with, when it comes to understanding and potentially, you know, respecting these intense reactions and interacting with community members who might be dealing with some kind of, you know, trauma, anxiety, fear. What what comes to mind?

Well, it's that fight or flight, that sense of survival, and we all have that. And that really comes from the part of our brain that's called the amygdala. It's in the temporal lobe, and there are three areas of emotions that are controlled in that space. And it's around being pleasant, the arousal or the energy, and then the dominance, which is where people want to take control. And so we just have to be very mindful because we don't know where or what someone is going through and what may have triggered them to have this emotion about what's happening. To give you a great example is, you know, most towns and cities right now are dealing with, data center conversations and people are very emotional about that. And I understand and respect that, but different people have gone through different things, different experiences. There could be health issues, concerns about their children. So people need to be very mindful and respectful of those conversations that are being had. And just not think about from a financial aspect because it can be a little little challenging at at those times.

Can I ask you, how you got interested in this kind of work to begin with? Just curious about what, you know, kind of brought you into this this world.

That's an interesting question. Having a daughter who is now 32 and, coming from a family of eight, I'm a middle child. And so, having a single daughter, she always would say to me, mom, you're not listening. And I would look at her and I'm like, I heard everything that you said. And she's like, but you're not listening. And so I started to do more research on communication, decision making, and that's kind of what my, dissertation is on is around how leaders make decisions, because we oftentimes are not paying attention. We hear what the person says, but we're not truly listening. And if you're not giving that person eye to eye contact, then it makes a huge difference. But, yeah, I would say my daughter was, was the driver because I never thought about it until she said it to me multiple times. Mom, you're not listening. Mom, you're not listening. And then I finally realized I wasn't listening because I was doing something else, but I heard what she said. And it, so just really made me stop and think, you know, how is that impacting others that I am around or as a leader, how am I impacting my staff? And, you know, it's it was a it was a a huge eye opener, but a great one at that. And so I've just taken and run with it.

So, you know, as we as individuals might have our own individual way of, you know, speaking and communicating, we might also have our own individual ideas about, you know, what it is to listen and really hear somebody and take their meaning and what do we do with it after that and all that. So kinda thinking about that, like, individually, again, you know, I have my own sense of what it is to listen and be respectful and and how to treat people, which which might vary from from other people. They might take different tacts about, you know, how serious you need to be and what kind of, you know, maybe front you need to put on or whatever it is. But, you know, as far as, like, a shared sense of what that is, why is it important for a full elected board to have a shared kinda common sense of civility versus individual perspectives?

It's important because if if we can't get along as a board and agree to disagree, then that sends the message to our citizens that they may come to us with an issue and we're not going to agree on anything. So it's, it's, I take it back to like growing up as a child, you know, parents always teach you to, you know, be nice and behave. And I'm not saying that that's all that it's about, but that's where we really start is to be respectful. Let everyone's voice be heard. I'm not saying you have to agree with everything that someone says, but when people know that you have heard what they have to share, what their concerns are, their wants or desires, then as a board, we can take that information and then distill that. Now as a board, we don't always agree, but we agree to disagree and we do what's best for the constituents. And that's really what it's about. It's not a personal agenda. It's about what is best for the citizens overall.

So can we take an example scenario of, in which this kind of stability training that we're talking about can have a positive effect?

Absolutely. So, I would say a recent example is through data centers. We had one in our, council meeting where people came to speak. There was also a community meeting and the surprising thing was that, you know, people were a little antsy about, you know, what's going to happen and how people will respond, but when we heard what the citizens truly wanted, and then we did some of our own research and then people brought in research, and then we started to really think deeper about, you know, what some of those impacts would be, what the concerns were. Then we, as a board decided we need more information because we can't make a decision on something that is unknown. And that's really what citizens were asking for is to do a deeper dive into this particular situation. Data centers are popping up all over in Virginia and other states, but, you know, for North Carolina, it's new. And so we need to, as a municipality, but also as a governing board throughout The United States, throughout North Carolina, to really think about the impacts, whether it's positive or negative, and then make the best decision for the citizens and for our town or municipality.

So at at the end of the day, this is about you know, it's it's not necessarily about, stealing up, you know, the board or the government against, the emotional situations. It's about having a mutual understanding. Hopefully, these things ripple out into the community to where they feel more listened to, more respected. You have more precedence of of feeling respected, and that may bode well for the next conversation in terms of, you know, laying out a a template for this is our style of conversation here in this town, and we can do positive things with it versus, you know, the next time something emotional comes up and it's just kind of a, you know, loggerheads of, you know, that I mean, that can create an impasse to where both sides are just so sort of emotionally steeled up themselves that that can create an impasse that doesn't necessarily go anywhere positive versus the sort of two way street of hearing each other out, giving each other eye con eye contact and affording them the dignity that, you know, they've been heard. We may disagree. We may have completely different perspectives on how emotional we should be about a a situation. But if someone comes up to the public comment section and they do have that spirit behind them, there's there's probably a reason for it that we need to understand and listen to.

Yes. Absolutely. Because, you know, even though we are elected officials, we don't have all the answers. And so one of the things I started doing is having a a coffee with the mayor, And that allows people to come in in their own space, nice and comfortable. There's no dress attire or anything. It's have coffee, get breakfast. And we're just having a simple conversation about whatever it is that they wanna talk about. Because I don't come with an agenda. It's whatever they want to talk about. And then that conversation, most 99% of the time helps that other conversation that may have happened before when their emotions were not being considered. But it's, it's just really about, you know, even if you see someone in the grocery store and they want to tap you and ask you a question, take the time to do it. Get that eye to eye contact, nodding of the head that you are listening, you're paying attention. You're not focusing on who else is shopping in the store because people can tell that when you quickly move your eye and you're looking away, they know that, okay, something has caught them and they're looking, I call it the squirrel. So don't do that because to me, that's being disrespectful, and you're not honoring what you said you're going to do in committing to civility.

And and I like that too about, you know, this isn't just about the public comment section, not just about the people who show up at the meeting when the the flames grow kind of high for a situation. When you're out in the community, there are all kinds of opportunities to kinda build these bridges, make these contacts, look people in the eye, give people the chance to be heard, and, you know, and, you know, I'm I'm sure you run into a lot of people council meeting. They're just part of the community. They're doing their thing. You know, we don't expect everybody to show up at the same thing all the time. But there are, you know, plenty of opportunities to still, you know, be neighbors and talk to each other like neighbors and understand that we all do kinda, you know, want a lot of the same things in the end in terms of basic principles and being able to flourish and and all of that. The, I I think you mentioned coffee with the mayor. I mean, is so so that's sort of like a a thing that you do in some sort of routine fashion? Or Yeah. So it's done on a quarterly basis. We go to a local restaurant

right here in town and show up at 08:30 in the morning, and whoever decides to come will come.

And we'll just have a conversation. Love that. Yeah. We we did an episode a little while back on getting youth involved in government too. So that's also, you know, to kind of there's youth councils. There's the mayor for a day thing where you can bring young people in and give them, you know, a a good positive first impression about here's local government. It is the closest to the people. You can actually have an impact. And in those cases, even if you're not at voting age, you know, you can still get involved somehow and and have some say in in what your community looks like and feels like. When you do develop a momentum of sort of, you know, positive interaction, seems like a lot could could build from that.

Yeah. Absolutely. And then people are more likely to want to ask the question, to raise their hand, because they know that there's comfort in doing that. They're they're not gonna be rejected or turned away or being, starting to think that, well, my voice doesn't matter because they're not going to listen to what I have to say. That's really what it's about. Just letting people know that it's okay to share your thoughts and ideas. It's really okay. We as leaders need to be okay with hearing it. And oftentimes, that's where it gets a little challenging because we're like, oh, I don't have the answer. Just say, you know, that's a great question. But I don't have the answer, but I will get back to you.

That that is some what you mentioned right there, that is something that that you do hear a lot out in the public. There is a per kind of a jaded perspective of, like, you know, they're not gonna listen to me anyway or the the fix is already in or, you know, whatever it is. It's like there there are a lot of perspectives like that even when it comes to local government, which again is, you know, the the closest to the people. It's you know? But I I think sometimes people view whatever happens in federal, state, and local as just government. It's kinda one thing. And people feel maybe a bit intimidated at how nebulous it can be. Who do you talk to? Who's ever gonna listen to me and my, you know, my single personal issue? But, I mean, there's precedent for it. So, I mean, I I love that we're talking about this.

Yeah. Yeah. So my philosophy is I put myself in that person's shoes and then prepare to respond because we've been there. We may not be there now with whatever that issue is, but we've been there. And so that's how I ended up in politics to begin with because my daughter was playing softball and she's like, mom, there's no place for girls to play just for boys. So I wanted my voice to be heard. It's the same thing. We just have to not forget where we came from when it comes to being in politics. We've been through those same experiences. We've shared those same conversations with our neighbors, families, and friends. But just because you're an elected official doesn't mean you forgot. You have to go back and reflect on your past experiences and then connect with that person that way.

Well, doctor Jordan, is there anything I didn't ask that you think is important to this conversation? Anything that might have, bubbled up while we were talking that we didn't quite get to hit?

No. But I would just say that I think as leaders in the political arena, you know, now is such a really important time for people to really truly commit to civility because the world is in a different place than it was ten, fifteen years ago. And people are having different experiences than they did ten or fifteen years ago. And they're feeling some type of way about these different experiences. And we as leaders just need to, first of all, have the level of awareness, but most importantly, to acknowledge what people are going through and not take it as they're complaining. Because everybody's going through something, we just don't know what it is, but we need to be mindful of that to help them navigate through what they're going through, but also recognize the pain that they may be dealing with because of whatever it is that is. But just be respectful of that. Commit to being committed to it and make sure that we are listening effectively and not dismissing concerns that people may bring about because we may be thinking about something else at that moment. But again, put our put ourselves in their shoes and then make a decision.

Doctor Jordan, Mayor Butner, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And, of course, people will, have more contact with you through Commit to Civility. Vicky, where do we take this? What are some takeaways that you think, we should have from this conversation? Where do we go with it? What do we need to do now? What's what's the action? Yes. And thank you. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Doctor. Jordan.

Well, Vicky Miller, thank you so much. Doctor Jordan, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. And, of course, if anybody listening has any questions or any follow-up thoughts or anything like that, you know, you can find my info. I can get these questions to doctor Jordan or to, Vicki Miller. There's the people directory at nclm.org. You can find any of us. So, yeah, just wanna thank everybody again for, for for this conversation. This has been a lot of fun, very interesting, and, of course, very valuable for our communities. So thank you again.

you. Thanks to Vicky Miller and to doctor Linda Jordan for joining us on this episode. And thank you for being here with us. Please take note of our offerings coming up with Commit Disability, the certification, those events right ahead. Again, October 1, you can find it in our events calendar at nclm.org. Then the deeper dive on November 18, again, that's in person, on the events calendar. You can find the registration. We highly recommend it. Thank you again for everything you do and for hanging out with us on this podcast. If you have any feedback for me, please send it over. You can find my info on the people directory at nclm.org. Just type in my name. That's Ben Brown. And you can contact me, connect with me, send me any feedback you have or ideas for future episodes as well. This podcast is all about cities and towns, and we cover all kinds of variety here. So if there's something cool in municipal government happening where you are, something maybe worth a story, I'd love to know about it. Again, my name is Ben Brown. You can find me at nclm.org. That's the website of the North Carolina League of Municipalities, which brings you this podcast, and we will see you on the next one. Thanks again, everyone.