I

It's no problem at all. I will say quickly, there is a dog here with me. I'm caretaking a dog right now. He tends to bark, so I apologize in advance. So I I quickly shared this the slides that I'll I'll share in the chat, and then I made a note that there's a storm. So just in case, I will rejoin. And so, anyways, my name is Victoria. I currently live in and work out of Toronto, Ontario, so I'm in Eastern time zone, and I currently serve as a staff for the Design Justice Network, and I will go into a bit of the history and how I got to that point in just a minute. But let me do the screen share thing so you can see what I am talking about. And now let me check. So you can see those slides. Right? Yep. Yeah? Okay. Perfect. And the link for the slides is there at the bottom as well. So I'll go to the next. So this is a little bit about me. I'm a I'm a staff member for the network. I work part time on contract. Outside of that, I work as a freelance graphic and web designer among many other things. And I live on the territories of Haudenosaunee, Anishinaabe, Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, Mississauga, and the Huron Wendat, which is the Toronto land acknowledgment here where I live. We we always try to start our design justice presentations by acknowledging the land, even though we know that doesn't go far enough, just that recognition, but we think it's important to, remind people of where where we're at and where things have have come from. So I'm gonna start with, like, a a brief, like, what is design justice, a little bit of the history just to dig in a bit, and then I'll be able to answer any questions that you might have. But also feel free to to, like, shout at me if something's unclear while I'm while I'm going along. So a really brief analysis is that design justice is a framework for analysis of how design, images interface, the built environment, or socio technical systems, maybe some of the things that you all are building or supporting to be built and growing, and how that those, those objects or those designs influence the distribution of benefits and burdens between, various groups of people. And I will do a visual example of what I'm speaking of. So what you can see on screen here is a black circle in the middle, and it says design process right in the center. You see three pink pinkish dots on the inside, and then you see eight greenish dots on the outside of that black circle. So what you're looking at here is what a typical design process would be like. And by that, what I mean is that it tends to center those who are already the most powerful. And when I'm talking about powerful, I'm saying that those three pink dots on the center are the people who are part of the process, who are making the decisions, and the people who are on the outside, the green dots, are not involved in the process that is happening. They are also at the kind of butt end of the process, so they may receive some benefits from whatever it is that's being designed, but they are not centered in the process of the creation of it, even though it is for them or, quote, unquote, for them. And so when we're talking about design justice, we're trying to think about who is involved in the process, who is harmed in the process, and who benefits from that process. And this is what you can see on screen now is, a Venn diagram, and it says those three questions. And so in that little kinda center middle point there, are the people that that would be involved and harmed and benefited, and then there's the subsections within. So we're talking about design justice as that distribution of those benefits and those harms, as well as the procedure that that happens. And so like I was saying in that first diagram, in a typical design process, the benefits, the the good things that come out of a process tend to go to those who are with the most power or are more powerful people. And if I use just any example, even right now of the way that COVID vaccinations are being distributed across the world. You probably already know or notice that, like, places like The US or Canada, we are able to get those vaccines a lot faster because we have more power and we also have the the the companies who are producing those vaccines kind of more located where we are. So we are able to, all of us individually participate by receiving a vaccine potentially, but we aren't involved necessarily in the process of how those get distributed around the world or even in our own cities, towns where we live. And so those who are less powerful receive, very few, if any at all, benefits. And so, again, in another, in the in the same, scope of a typical design process, the folks who are less powerful. And when I say the folks, I'm talking about the folks, I'm talking about the location, the environment, every single kind of aspect that that would be involved in any sort of design process, but they are generally receiving more of the harm. So in the world scope of COVID vaccinations, we can see that there are many countries that are not receiving them, who are actually, having more people and more of their population passing away and being affected by this virus, and those who are more powerful, who are making the decisions, who are able to create the vaccinations, are receiving very little of those harms, and some of those harms might just be the critique of how they're doing it. And so that background, we always try to explain because it's important for folks to understand, like, this is what a normal design process is. And then when we move into a design process that focuses on design justice, The chart or the the graph that you can see now in front of you is the design process still inside that black circle, but the green dots, the ones who were on the periphery previously, are now at the center of that process, as well as those pink dots. They're still involved. So everybody with power and with very little power is involved in that design process, and it expands the knowledge and the lived experience of the community, those who are being centered at the center of that design process. So when we look at vaccine distribution across the world, Part part of it is that everybody deserves to have access, and so what we would look at in a design justice process is how can we make it so that, you know, all those people have the access that they need? Who do we need to prioritize to get this vaccine most importantly, and make sure that it's distributed across the globe fairly without financial compensation being the key part of that distribution. And so now I'll just go a little bit into the Design Justice Network, what it is, what's going on. But design justice, we've we've I've mentioned this already, but it's it's also in addition to being a process, it's a growing community of practice, and it's focusing on that equitable distribution of the benefits and burdens. It's focused on the meaningful participation in design decisions, recognition of community based indigenous diasporic design traditions, knowledge, and practices. The land that I was that that I, currently am on, where I live and work. And and, so we always acknowledge that there's a lot of history coming from the points that we are at and that those are very key starting points for a design process, rather than think of something new or create the latest app, or how do we solve this this problem. There are people who've been doing this work for years and years and years. And so we start at that basis.

Oh, there we go.

And I'm also gonna note quickly that I'm not looking at the chat, so if there's something important, just let me know. Okay. So the Design Justice Network. So the the image that you can see in front of you right now is is an image from it's actually 02/2015. I keep forgetting to update that where it says 02/2016. But it's an image from 2015 where a group of 30 or so designers coming from various different backgrounds, we convened at the Allied Media Conference, which is a conference that takes place annually, it's now bi annually, but in Detroit and has been kind of a space for media based organizing, activist movements, and a lot of building and collective, collective building. And so this, we, the Design Justice Network, it wasn't yet called Design Justice Network, but we started with a, a what's it called? A workshop, a workshop that we called the generating shared principles for design justice. And the goal of that workshop was to move beyond that idea of social impact design or the design for good. So when I give sometimes when I talk about the history of that, I just think about talking with few friends of mine in Toronto, as well as otherwise, who we would talk about how we are designers and we wanna design things for social justice causes and support the movements and the collectives that are around us to help push the messages or support the means that they had. Had. And oftentimes, we were grouped into this design for good or social impact design group, and that was not what we identified ourselves as, and that's not what we really felt meant what we were trying to do. And so that workshop that you can see some folks sitting at a table, in front of them actually is that Venn diagram with those three questions. And so what we did in that workshop was we talked about, three different design projects that were occurring in Detroit at the time, just real relevant examples. And what, one of the examples that I I often use or explain is because it's very easy to kind of recognize was, a student at the university had proposed or brought up a project. I think it was called Empower Coat Project. I might be quoting that wrong. But she designed a jacket that then turned into a sleeping bag, and the goals or the objectives of that was to have the folks who were houseless, the houseless population, have something warm that they could wear that they could also then sleep in. But what we discovered when we looked deeper into that project, when we asked or we looked at who was involved, who was benefiting, we saw that, bigger companies and corporations, were actually sponsoring this project to happen, and they were also some of the folks that were involved in creating more houseless population or removing some of the locations where folks without houses could live or be safe. And so that's a really good example of the way that though a project like that was called social impact design or design for good, but it's not design justice. It wasn't looking at those background influencers. It wasn't looking at the people who are involved, and it wasn't looking at what do the folks who are houseless really actually need. And there are a lot of ways that we can think about, what they might actually need or want, but part of that is just talking to them and asking them what would they want or what would they need. So the idea of design justice is to stop reproducing those existing inequalities, and that workshop, what we did was developed principles and the 10 design justice principles that exist on the website right now, I'll go a little bit deeper in a second, but are the this workshop here was the basically the basis of those being built. And so this image here is the following year, so 02/2016, at the Allied Media Conference, and what happened here was folks took those original kind of ideas from the workshop the year before. They were kind of worked on by various volunteers throughout the year to put into kind of a format that worked. And then what happened at this workshop was, we we took those 10 principles that they were and kind of ripped them apart even further. We we did the wording, we changed the grammar, we made sure they really resonated with folks and and made sense. And this is just some of the images of of the brainstorming. So part of that process was talking about design justice is, and folks then brainstormed that we one example, designing with instead of designing for. And then part of it was we do this by we do this by learning or teaching or throwing giant dance parties. Lots of things under under the realm of what do folks need to to feel good about doing design or being part of design. This image here shows that editing process that I was talking about. So there's a lot of back and forth and crossing out of words and highlighting and changing things. And then this is actually the following year, so 02/2017, where everybody came back together again. And it's it's different people each year. Some some are the same, some are different. But everybody came back together, and we actually officially launched the 10 design justice principles as they are, on the website right now. And these are some of the folks that were involved in that process. And behind you can kinda see it on the screen is a picture of a zine, and that zine officially launched with with alongside those those 10 design justice principles. And all of our zines are free and available on the website, and here's pictures of some of them right there. There are a few more since, since this picture. But those also are good resources if you ever wanna take a look just to see some of that background and history and some of the stories of how this all came together. And so one other thing that I get asked a lot is, how do I put design justice into action? What do I do? Like, I have these 10 principles, but how do I use them? How do I use them in my life or in my work or just in my relationship with my family? How do I how do I do that? So this this past year, actually 2020, we're in 2021 now, in 2020, one of the things that we, we did was we opened up a membership, to Design Justice Network, so people could either volunteer or pay a small fee to join the network, and there's a bunch of different benefits that you get by being a member. But one of the things we were realizing throughout the year was that people really wanted to see design justice in action. Uh-oh. One

sec. As previously promised, we now hear from the talk.

Sorry. Yes. As previously promised.

No worries.

So what was I saying? Opening up of membership and, oh, member stories in action. So what you can see on the screen is just a couple of of design justice members. We have over 500 folks now, and it's it's continuing to grow of people all over the world. But what we started to do is have members share their stories of what they're doing, how they're using the design justice principles, in their daily life or in their work. And the photo on the left, Leila Sidi, I've included the links where you can go and read the stories as well as the YouTube videos for the talks that they gave. But Leila, I just use Leila as an example because she's doing really cool work. She works, she's a woodworker, a lutherie, and she builds guitars based on I mean, she didn't know about the design justice principles until after she started this work, but as soon as she found the design justice principle, she really identified with them. And she the way she builds her guitars, she talks about guitars being built for the standard average male, male body. And, so she builds her guitars. They they take a lot longer to build, but she focuses on environmental justice. So she sources her wood from, local, communities right near near where she lives. And she builds them, you know, lighter weight and more to fit the body type of the person who she's building it for. And she talks about how guitars are just built, mass produced, and there isn't a focus on who that guitar is for and what they might need. So she uses design justice in her work to build those guitars, and you can check out Leslie Ann Noel, Sarah Fattala, Pierce Gordon. We have so many members who are doing so many amazing things, and these are just a few examples we're trying to showcase one, once a month or so when when when we can. And these are some quick slides of of how to join the network, because I didn't really discuss that, but generally, people will join by coming across the design justice principles. I'm sorry these are images that you can't actually click the link, but it's all very available on the website. But most people will come across, find the design justice principles, read them, and say, hey, yes, this is the the the way that I wanna do my work. How do I get involved in this? And the very basic first step you could take is just to sign on to them, and signing on just means you, you agree with them and that you'd like to use them in your work. And then another step that folks take is they can become a member, and a member means either that you're volunteering in some capacity with a local node or a working group or some other way within the network. And as a member, there are those benefits I was talking about that the the one main benefit is just being able to access folks on Slack. It's a world or international community of folks all over the world. That member that I showed you last, right on the right hand side, Jorn Betten, he's based in New Zealand and he's doing some really cool work, around neurodiversity. So we're connecting with folks all over the world, and these are just some quick ways of how to join the network. There's many other kind of volunteer opportunities. It would take a long time to go into everything. But, and this is a really brief, like, how our current structure works. So you could see, a black circle with a white dotted line, and on the outside of that dotted line is says the word signatories. And those are the folks that have read and signed on to the design justice principles. They might not be actively doing much else within the network, but they've signed on and they identify with them. Members is on the inside of that circle, which means they're kinda taking an active step using the principles or volunteering in kind of helps make decisions for the entire network. There are working groups and local nodes. Those are two options for folks to get involved with. When I when I spoke at Nathan's class, a couple months ago, there was a lot of people really interested in getting a node a local node started up in Ohio and now we're seeing a little bit of that progress. I don't know if they've kept you up to date, Nathan, but they are they're I think they're starting a reading group to get started and just kinda connecting with each other. But local nodes and working groups are either working groups are, you know, topic specific, So we have one that's called Principles at Work or Design Justice Principles at Work, and they're focusing on how do we advocate or push the design justice principles in our current workplaces. So whether it's at a university institution, a company or a corporation, a tiny small business, but how do we use those and push them at that level? And local nodes are more locally based, so it could be Ohio and all of Ohioan folks can join because most things are digitally, connections like how we are doing right now, or they might just be, like, a small area of a small town and they're the folks connecting and mostly what local nodes are doing are using the principles, and trying to work with the local community groups and organizations to help, advocate the work they're already doing or learn, from the principles and start implementing them. And this is the the what I was just speaking to, the nodes and the working groups, and there are other folks who do volunteer tasks for the network such as translations. We've had the design justice principles translated in many different languages, and so there are there are quite a few opportunities based on what people are interested in to do to help and support each other. And there are the actual links that I was talking about, so you can actually click them in the in the slideshow if you're interested and want to sign on to those principles. I know we didn't actually look at them today, but I'll open a browser tab and and look at them with you, and then the link to become a member if you're interested. And this I'll say something for two more minutes, and then I'll leave open it for questions. But some of the impacts that we've seen within the network is just design education or reeducation, so changing the language or the tone of how design education is being taught, and these these impacts have taken a long time and are still ongoing, but, the design justice process generally takes a long time, and that's part of, making it as inclusive as possible. There have been lots of workshops and now there are I think there are 13 or 14 different local nodes that are that are con are convening over the world. There's been many amazing different projects that have taken place, whether it was a recent workshop on design justice and philanthropy. Our website, this might be of interest to folks that there was a team working on how do we make our website consentful where people could sign on to the principles, but also sign off of the principles or remove themselves from it if they want. And that's a goal that we're working towards. And lots of different organizations, whether it's small businesses or bigger groups have signed on to those design justice principles or trying to use them in their work. But another part around how it can be difficult, and this is probably where you'll ask some questions, but the challenges are that it's mostly volunteer run. So people are just putting in the time that they have when they can. Other than myself, who I mentioned is the staff now, and that's just because we we have money coming in from members, and we have various donations that people have been given, which has been amazing. And they're able to support, having me on contract just to support the rest of the network, right now. Another issue is that everybody's geographically distanced. So time zones is always difficult or just, like, connecting at the same time can be difficult, but we're trying to get a bit better at making things more accessible to everyone and the lack of a formal structure and decision making, that is something that has been difficult for a while, but, we in the next year or and some work that we've we've learned from our members and volunteers that we really need some of these things, so it's it's in the work. And probably the biggest the biggest challenge is that how do we align around design justice? So how do we bring that into our projects? Or how do I align around it in my life and everyday being? And the best advice that I can give is that sometimes using all of the 10 principles at the same time is is definitely difficult because there are many. And so what we often say is try to start with one of them. Which one resonates with you, and how can you incorporate that into the work that you're doing? And start there, and then try to spread out and expand into into the other ones. And then here's a quick, well, questions and connections, but links to all of our various ways that you can follow or, or get in touch with the Design Justice Network. So that is everything I will share other than I'll quickly I'm hoping that you can still see my screen, but I've just opened the Design Justice read the principles page, and this is what I was speaking to a lot is the 10 principles. So sometimes we read them out during the sessions, but I won't do that for you now. Just know that they're they're here, and available to answer any questions that folks have.

Super. Shall we do our our traditional round of appreciative applause with unmuting and clapping on a count of three. Let's pause while people find their mute buttons. And a wanna and a two and a thank you so much, Victoria. I know people have questions. They probably also have some thoughts of appreciation. I'm gonna suggest folks pop into chat real quick. And if you have either a question or just, wow, I really loved blank. Go ahead and type that in because we can all do that simultaneously without talking over each other. It's the magic of writing. And if someone would rather speak, that would be cool too. But I'm gonna invite thirty seconds of silence while people share the thing that's in them to share about their how Victoria's content impacted on them. And we do have a question from Shauna. We'll start with that one in just a minute. And if you haven't got anything in particular you wanted to say, if you just type in thank you or thumbs up or just something to so we know that your keyboard's working and that you're engaged. That would be super.

You're going too fast. I'm still typing.

No rush. No rush.

And you just let me know when I'm when I'm supposed to say something.

Yeah. The silence is always a little weird, but people are are hammering at their keyboards. I can tell. Mhmm. We're starting to get a few comments in.

Maybe buy some time with the audio verbal question if you want.

Yeah. The challenge is if you start getting an interesting conversation, then it disrupts the typing, and then people can't think and type and listen all at the same time.

Yeah. I can

think. Okay. Go ahead and finish your thoughts and hit carriage return. I wanted to ask Victoria about Shauna's question. Are there examples of design justice process working well?

Yeah. I mean, design justice process is always difficult, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I just mean it takes more time. It takes more energy to make sure you're meeting the goals and ensuring that everybody is involved. But what I I'm gonna share a couple links. It'll be, hopefully, it's not too much, but I just pasted a link to our design justice zine number two that has some kind of good examples of design justice in action before it was necessarily called design justice. And there are a couple examples of projects that have happened there. I think a couple of other really good examples is some that some that I spoke to, for example, Leila Sidi and the building of her guitars and the process that she uses to do that. I didn't open that link yet, but I think it's always different based on what the the project is or the group, but I also really wanna highlight the organization studio called And Also Too. One of the founders of Design Justice, her name is Yoona Lee, and she actually co facilitated that initial session that I spoke of of generating design justice principles. But but her studio, and also too, does really amazing co design work following the design justice principles. And the link that I shared in the chat is their their stories page. So it has some very good examples of of the way that they've used the principles, and they talk through the process that they used for each of them. And another another really cool, like, kind of ongoing example of the way that they are using the principles and how others can can apply them, especially for you folks doing a lot of technology type of work. I'm pointing out the the the consentful tech zine. It might be a really good resource, but it's ways that you can think through the technology that you're building or creating and create it in a consentful way. And it's things that often get forgotten about in the background, but it's a really good resource and reminder of of where or or things that that do often get left out when you're when you're thinking about design justice. I'm not sure if I've given good examples because there are there are there are many, but the the important thing I would say is that folks use the design justice principles in so many different ways. Even for myself, if I gave a personal example of how do I use that in my everyday life and how to make it practical. I'm going back to try to find where is that question that you said again, Shauna? Example of is it working well? And this is just a personal example that I can share, which is in my own life with my family, for example. I have struggled with them over many, many years about the social justice work that I do, and they, I would say, are a bit more conservative. So I use the design justice principles, and I try to think about, okay, where is my family coming from? What viewpoint are they coming from? How can I, you know, talk about social justice with them and make sure that they are seeing or understanding principle number three, which is prioritizing the impact of the design on the community over the intentions of the designer? And so sometimes I just go back to the principles, and I look at them, and I remind myself, okay, yeah, like, they they don't understand that there are many issues going on with the design process that I'm doing, but I can explain it to them by by telling them that, you know, I'm designing a poster for a rally for May Day, and May Day means this, and this is why it's important to me, and this is why it's important to a lot of people. So part of it is just reflecting on your own internal thoughts and process of what would my default be? Okay, how can I change that or use the design justice principles kind of as a reference to change the way that I personally do my work or advocate for that in the workplaces that I'm doing? I hope that was a good I hope that was a a good answer.

I think it's a very rich answer, and I'm glad that there's links here. We'll have to make sure we capture those and put them on the archive page. Mhmm. Shauna, do you feel answered?

Yes. Thank you. And thank you for all of the resources you linked.

Super. Next up, B. Cavello had acknowledged that the slides were really well done and highly accessible and ditto. Divya had asked about acknowledged how applicable this is across context and would like to know more about the challenge on formalized decision making. What can you say more about that?

Just to check the challenge, let me go back to see what I had in those slides. Okay. Formal structure and process. So that's basically the network formed somewhat at that initial session. And if you would have asked me in 02/2015, do I think Design Justice would be an international network with almost 2,000 people who signed on to the principles, 500 plus members, and, you know, a book being written about it? I think at that point in time when we started this, we had no idea where it was going to go and how big or how much people would really recognize it. So that, I think, speaks to, you know, we got it started, and it was starting slow, but there was a lot of momentum and people interested. And so in terms of the difficulty with either decision making or, like, that process, the formal structure, we didn't really have one, and it just, it exploded. People found the principles and really, you know, fell in love and wanted to sign on and wanted to do something, but we didn't really have ideas on what could they do or how could they start implementing these things. And so that's been really a learning process that, with the support of people who signed on or with the support of members. We've been learning and growing. And in terms of decision making, generally, the the steering committee uses a consensus based decision making model. And if if they can't reach consensus, which has yet to happen, we would go to the formal kind of voting structure. I have been part of the steering committee before I became a staff, which is why I'm very familiar. So, yeah, I hope that I hope that makes a lot of sense. Super. Yes. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Divya. B Cavello says works in the government at the moment. I feel I I sense some emotional distancing therapy. And I'm teasing you. And raises the point that we can have many people in an impacted community who may not all agree with one another. They're not a monolith. There there's a lot of diversity in in internal disagreement. How does one find who who speaks for the community? How do you get their involvement effectively?

This, I it's it's definitely not an easy answer, but I think part of what design justice would look at and prioritize is is, the folks who are most impacted, even though they're having disagreements, we would probably we would look at, how do we create, you know, that consensus, which probably would be difficult, because if I just use a really plain and simple example, there's gonna be people who are conservative and there's gonna be people who are liberal, plus everything above or outside of not liberal, but it's very difficult to reach that consensus on on folks in those two boats as a rough example. But I think I think what design justice also asks folks to do is prioritize or make decisions. And so in a government institution that obviously can be difficult because there's funding, there's lots of different levels of people that you have to please as well as probably rules and bylaws that you have to follow. And so and so I think I'm I'm thinking about, Sasha's Sasha, the design justice book, which I accidentally didn't put in these slides. I'm sorry. But I will get that link. But I think what Sasha does in their book, is really kind of talk through how do you make those decisions? How do you prioritize? Who is the most impacted or who gets to do that speaking for the community? And there are always, in any design process that's design justice or non design justice, there's always kind of you have to make certain decisions. And sometimes, yeah, people are going to be upset and not like it, but I think what design justice does is focuses it on those people who are most often left out, most often don't have that voice in trying to prioritize them. And there may be many of those folks in a community, but maybe there's an answer that by working with them together, there can be an answer. And I know that sounds kind of like a simple answer, but I think a really good resource, if you have the time, is to check out Sasha's book and I'll I'm gonna link, it's both available online publicly for free, as well as you can you can purchase the book. But I think it's it's definitely within the first the introduction, chapter one, or chapter two. Probably chapter one in the intro, but let me find that link and I'll share it. I hope that But let me find that link, and I'll share it. I hope that helps a little bit with that answer or that question.

Yeah. B, is that feeling like it's a responsive? Thumbs up from b. Super. Okay. And Nathan had what seems to be like a a very logical follow on is, are there particular tools and techniques that folks have used to make sure that designers are hearing about and being accountable to, impacted communities?

On the link. Sorry. Could you repeat that one more time? Yeah. Could you repeat that one more time?

Become three people simultaneously. Yeah. Nathan was curious about particular tools and techniques to make for designers to help themselves make sure they're hearing about and hearing from affected communities

and keep them accountable. That is a really good question, Nathan. And I think one of the things that I think the network or some of us that have been involved for so long that we haven't necessarily done super well, but we're we're trying to get better at is that we haven't put anywhere in a specific spot for folks to access. It's just some resources on how we do this work and what we're doing and how we're doing it. I would say the the and also to cite their their stories is a really good kinda if you read through one of their stories, you can hear the process that they use, and I think that is a one good example of how how you can implement, I guess. But I think another oh my goodness. I've I've lost my my train of thought and the question that I was trying to answer.

And techniques.

And techniques. Yes. Alright. Okay. So I think another one that I can share, and I think I might have shared it already in the in the second the second scene on our site, is within that, I think we go through the what that that initial how we talked through the design justice process with the the initial workshop that we did. I'm I mean, I don't know what's going on right now. But I think in that zine, and I'm just looking at it now, we yes, it is. There's a page, it's page six and seven, actually, that talks about the pillars of design justice. So the idea of having shared principles, the design justice principles, or other principles that you convene around, creating the idea of gen or creating creating genuine relationships that that lead to that collaboration over time. And the idea of collaboration and co design and long long the impact that it will have for a long time. So I hope I hope that is a a good, quick resource, but it's something that we haven't done well at and we're trying to get better at.

Mhmm.

Yeah. For sure. I mentioned the the consentful tech zine. That that is kind of a practical tool also. But that idea of what we were trying to do with the website that hasn't happened yet, but make it consent reversible, that's definitely something that we'd like to build or have implemented, but has yet to to happen. So it it might be a if anyone knows more about those types of topics, that could be definitely useful. And I had a good call with someone. I'm realizing we're at the top of the hour. I'm sorry. I had a good call with someone yesterday who gave me this really cool collaboration tool of just how do you open up how do you, open up your meetings? And I would give one advice that one thing I've learned within the network is just that, it's nice to have introductions at the beginning, like, hi. I'm this person, or this is how I'm doing, or, like, let's just chat for a couple minutes before we start into our meeting. You're helping build those personal relationships, and it makes it easier, throughout any process that you'll be in to to have somewhat of a personal relationship with with people.

Right.

And now I'm gonna miss all the other questions. I'm sorry.

Perhaps we'll find a way to capture them and answer them offline. Mhmm.

Yeah. Or if the those slides are there, and it has our email address. So if anyone has one of those burning questions that you'd want me to to answer, please feel that you'd want me to to answer, please feel free to email. I'm really sorry I went too long.

No. No. No. Thank you. I got no sense that you went too long. That that that would not be my read.

Yes. Thank you.