K. So I guess the first question we should be discussing is what is, what are citizen assemblies? And, in short, what they are are they are a method to to pull the population and to to to get to understand what the population wants, desires in in any aspect. And what what it differs from other methods, such as a referendum, such as a participatory budgets, such as there's many ways the in politics that we can pull the citizens. The difference in to citizen assemblies is that we citizen centers use a tendentially stratified random sampling. What does this mean? So the public institutions, they want to to poll the citizens, and they are going to do a lottery. And from this lottery, they will ask the people to participate. But how is this lottery how the lottery should be done? It should pick 50% male and 50% female. It should pick from ages 18 to 20, 33. And that's what it means, stratified random sampling. So we don't want to pull, only people that work in the medical field or only people that work in the construction. We want some people from construction, some people from the medical field, And we want to do to we cannot have everybody in the same house because the populations are millions of people. So what we do, we we do a lottery. And from this lottery, we the people are invited to participate, and they form the cities in assemblies. Just a curiosity, this is how the first democracies were run-in Greece. So in ancient Greece, people got together in public spaces, and there were too many people already. Let's say, a 2,000 people is already too many people in a public square. And they actually they didn't choose other politicians to represent themselves like we do today. We elect representatives. They did this methodology that I'm talking about. They used the the 10 the random sampling by lottery. So the is this is this something you know? As I said, it was the Greeks are already using it, and there's they are already running at the moment. Tickets in the summer is in Ireland, in UK, in Italy, in Belgium Belgium. So they're already occur occurring. But they're not normal, and they're a little bit unknown to the to the common public. When I talk about this and when I introduce this concept, I always tell people that the basis that we need to the basic thing that we need to understand is that the majority of citizens, the majority of people are good people. And why am I saying this? Because people who advocate for citizen assemblies, we are not afraid of drawing a random sample of the population. We are not afraid that we should ask some random people on the street, what do you think about this going to war with this country or spending money this way? We are not afraid because we know the majority of the people are good. Then there are too many technical details about how this can be implemented. For example, should the each I don't know which country has a different name, municipalities, different ways to organize geographically. But should we have the citizen assemblies for every town? So so every town, should it have a citizen assembly? Should it be a second a bicameral, like a a there's a a a parliament with the representative representatives? Should we have a second parliament, a counterbalancing with random people from the population? So there's many ways this can be implemented, and there is no bulletproof or perfect. There's no perfect solution. And just like any methodology, there there's also fallible points. So for example, who is going to do the lottery? Who is going to draw the the the random sampling? How can this be done? Can we trust? So, of course, there's these raises questions. What I am doing with the proto political party, the democratic future, we just introduced, we believe this system can can be used as a counterbalance in parallel. We don't want to eliminate the institutions that they are exist already. We want to improve them by running the citizen assemblies at various levels, at the local level, at the mid level, at the national level. And one important thing to understand is, for example, agenda setting the agenda setting. Who is going to pick what is the the topic of discussion of this citizen assemblies? So for example, I was looking in UK. There's a climate citizen citizen assemblies. So they're asking citizens to come and discuss how can we fight climate change. There's a in Ireland, they run a citizen assemblies on drug use. So instead of letting some politician, we are far they are asking the citizens, what do you think we can do about drug policy? And, so for example, we in Portugal, we we did run a citizen assembly at local with in Lisbon, with the municipality of Lisbon. We we we achieved that. Unfortunately, unfortunately, the agenda was set by the the municipality, the agenda, not by us. And what do they did they pick? They picked the fifteen minutes city. So the municipality of Lisbon, they thought the best question to ask citizens, what are we going to ask them? Ask them, how can we make a fifteen minute seat? So the agenda setting is an important issue. The lottery. How can we draw the lottery is another important issue? What levels this can be written? But the basic and the most important thing to understand is that most of the people are good people. Let's not be afraid to to draw people to to to to ask people to come to the to the political discussion and put the topics to them. I don't know how much time I've been running, but this is the bit. Okay. So this is the basic idea behind the citizen assemblies. As I a quick quick just just just a quick thing. So your parliament, surely, it has some rules about 50% males or 5050% females in the parliament. I'm not sure where you are guys are from with your country. But is it 50% male, 50% female parliament? Are most of the people in the parliament the working in in law, or are they working are are they, like, like, like a plumber? Is it like, the politicians? Do you have any politician who was a plumber before? And it should represent the people. If they are they should re that's what it means to stratify the random assembly. So even the parliament, it should it should be to represent people better, it should have these characteristics of a citizen's assembly sort of. And that's that's about it. I'm open for questions and

So that's the one of the core issues you raised. As I said, this is not a novelty. But at the same time, in the current age, there is no standards as how this should be done at the moment. So, basically, we are building this as as we are as we are running. We are building this. Of course, the idea is understood, and it's clear to everybody. How can this be actually implemented? The most difficult thing, my friend, you are mister Steve, I suppose.

Seth. Mister Seth. The most pressing issue at this moment is not the specifics on the standards. Let's call it standards of how this should be run, but it's it's how to convince people that this is actually a a good thing to do and important. We have been trying in Portugal for a year for over a year. We've got, like, 200 signatures. We need 7,500. People are afraid to talk about this. People reject the idea even if they don't understand it. So, of course, we need standards, and we should discuss them and share them and make actually, this will this is the master thesis. Someone's studying politics, for example. How the should this is a good master thesis. You make a good one. How what's the standards? And I know there are some books already written on this, and there are some some the the pressing issue is not the standards, per se. It's the the the idea itself and how urgent it is.

So our our approach has been, firing at all directions and try to see what sticks. So we contacted all political parties in Portugal. We contacted other groups. And the the the the feedback was very I I I don't find the words. The there was no feedback, actually. Some some said, okay. So I think we got someone one person who this is this is a little bit revolutionary. So from the official institutions, we found a wall. And when we addressed the general public, we also found the difficulties in in giving a support to this idea.

So the to to to the first point about the the name or how we market this idea, this is where we are at the moment. We are discussing what is the best way to market the idea. I myself, personally. I'm not talking about my colleagues. Myself, I see this as a product we need to sell. So how can we market? And maybe this, putting the random on the name is the best approach. This is what we are discussing internally internally. How can we market this? What's the wording? Because the idea is very basic and very simple and very straightforward. But how can we express it in a way that that's what that's what we are doing internally at the moment? As to what was the the one was about the name and this ah, as to the second question about the rotate the rotation of the people who participate at the citizen assemblies, this goes back to the standards issue. How what are the roles at the front, the agenda setting? So just to give you it's not off topic, but who puts the agenda? Is the municipality? We propose that there is a citizen assembly just for the agenda. Then there's a second citizen assemblies to discuss the what was the in the agenda. To your point to your point, we discussed maybe six months. People say six months is not enough. You need to rotate it in one year period. For us, it's obvious and clear. It needs to have some rotation, and it needs to be quicker than the four year general, four year average election period. It needs to be, like, one year, two years maximum. Some people say six months.

No. Never. I'm I'm I'm I'm googling at the moment. I don't even know what the word means, but I'll be looking at it.

questions? Sound, Andrea. Sound microphone.

Thank you. The I'm super interested. I've actually been working in in the citizens assembly space. I'm working with Antoine Verich at at Michonne Public working in and Cosmos ecosystem is gonna have us run a citizens assembly within the DAO.

Interesting. That's interesting. Okay.

Yeah. So definitely experimental. I'm curious about why you're using the a party model. What is it that creating a proto party is gonna do differently? And why are you doing that as as opposed to a

as a party gonna work differently than a municipality or some sort of state organization would do to run a citizen's assembly?

So, miss Andrea, please let's exchange contacts at the end of this conversation because as I said, I also work in Web three and the thousand stuff. So I would like to and we are similar things, but let's exchange contacts. So the question you raised has been raised by a lot of people when we communicate with them. And I don't think there is an obvious answer. So, for example, we we already tried to we could do a petition. Let's petition. Let's create a petition, sign the names, and ask for institutions to implement this this model governance model. So there's many ways we could do this. I believe I was not I was I'm not one of the founders of this proto political party. I joined them after they were running for a few months. And having discussed with them, I believe that they found a wall. The the the politicians and these these institutions were not giving good feedback or to them. So having faced the wall, they're forced they're forced kind of to either try a petition model, which I insisted we should also run. And at the same time so for example, this is the Democratic Future. That's the name of our political party. For the Democratic Future. So for example, in the statutes, it has our main goal is to implement citizen assemblies at the institutional level. Once this yeah. This is why we exist. This is the the main reason. And I'm I'm not sure if I answered your question.

No. I think you're talking about the the tactics and the the the strategy of the tactics is the right distinction, and that makes sense. Your goal was to have the institutional level adopt this this technique rather than as a party, we're gonna run using this, and that makes us a different kind of party.

No. No. No. The at at the institutional level, that's what we want.

Got it. Thanks.

Sure. I just you know, I I like the idea of citizens assemblies in general, but also do acknowledge that in certain public permissionless protocols, people might prefer their anonymity. And so any sort of dimensions that might be used for stratified sortition, you know, might be difficult or undesirable to extract. So just thought on that.

I have not really comment on this except that the ideal scenario would be you receive in your house a letter from the municipality with the logo of the municipality. And the letter you open the letter, and it says, you are invited to participate in the citizen assemblies to discuss this. And people are not forced to participate. They don't lose anything if they don't. And they they can if you if they want I'm I'm not we are not advocating that the citizen assemblies should be binding and replace the other models of governance or voting, or it's just an extra tool. And who who who is willing to participate can who wants to remain anonymous and doesn't want to participate, it's free to do it.

Yeah. I I think it works well in is desirable, certainly, in the typical moon ass municipality just as a as a as a part of civics, good general civics. And I'm just you know, as I think about the translating or the concepts to more of a Web three network state type of scenario

Mhmm.

Then, you know, unless that protocol or network has implemented some notion of KYC and DIDs and SSI, which kind of goes against their whole concept of SSI, then, you know, there's some impedance mismatch between, you know, your your typical municipality or and and the the Web three context.

Yeah. It's I'm very interested to talk with miss Andrea a little bit more about this Cosmos project. Inside the the democratic feature, I'm the only one pushing forward for blockchain and the online voting. There's not many people doing this. As I said, this idea was first born in ancient Greece. How can we mix this idea from ancient Greece with the blockchain in Cosmos in 02/2023? I would very much like to to see. But I believe that the the the idea is very basic. The idea is just why doesn't the municipality ask people what they want, what they feel? It's not it's not something too much. We we complicate things. We are complicating Mexican. We are making, like, monsters in our head, and this is something out of this world.

That's a very interesting question, and I feel a little bit it's out of my capacity to give you a good answer. But it's it's a question that needs to be taken note of. What we are our answer is a proto political party. What we tell people is that before they participate in the decisions in the citizen assemblies, there will be tech there will be professionals and experts who will who give them information, explain what's being discussed at hand. So there's there's going to be interference from outside of the citizen assemblies, from experts, from professionals. But, again, how this can be done and the can this actually work? I believe most my mother always told me never to treat people as if they are stupid. So I don't but so I believe this can be achieved by the by the method I was explaining. But how how exactly needs to be really, really well thought?

I will be checking the comments. I remember. Bye.

I

think it'd be great actually to take this to the, the async channel. I'd love to have Antoine in in the conversation because he has more of the expertise around the citizens assembly space.

But I think that about about how do we present and what are the the categories that matter, and how do you really do this in a decentralized way? I think we're doing we're doing a crawl first. How do we work this in an all remote? You're not sitting in a room together. It you know, it's we sync synchronous, but not but remote. How do you communicate in a way that still maintains you your pseudonymity? Those are gonna be is interesting challenges that we have to explore in the web three space. And then addition, on top of that, I loved Nanyu's comment about the setting the agenda. You know, we are taking a topic and that is decided centrally within this DAO. And then the next step is, okay, how do you identify the agenda in a decentralized manner? Super interesting problems.

If you if I may, just as to the agenda, we believe there should be a citizen assembly specifically to set up the agenda. And then another citizen assembly. This is how what we advocate for. And in my personal opinion, from my thoughts I've been doing, the main contribution of Webtree to this citizen assembly space is a sortition. Because if we trust someone to have a ballot and they do it like this and they take a paper and they oh, this is you. You are going to discuss this. This is not it's hard to trust. It's not a trusted solution. While the blockchain because it's decentralized, I think the random the sortition the sortition of the random number, I think, will be the the biggest contribution of, Webtree to the citizen assembly space.

Oh, okay. So if you use types, it is in assemblies. There's too many things. I didn't pick anything particular. I just put that link randomly. I'm gonna put I'm going to put on the chat. Anyway, for example, there's a TED talk, a TED talk about this, like, four years ago. Oops. I can oh, yeah. I shared it. There's more things. Citizen in the same in UK, somebody from UK, and I find this interesting. Oops. Sorry. Copy this.

Okay. Thank you.

Yeah. Thanks so much. I do have some slides to share with everyone, if that's okay. So I'm gonna share my screen here.

I hope you can see that. Yeah. Okay. Cool. So this is a very different space. Shifting gears from politics to art and hopefully talking about the politics of art for a few minutes here with you all. And I have, been in the past few months really developing out some of the governance structures and articulating those. And so I'm really excited to share those with all of you and hear feedback, specifically other projects that might be dealing with similar issues, or other inspiration you've heard, from the cooperative world. So I'm gonna share with you a project called the Transfer Data Trust. It's a peer to peer decentralized conservation and care protocol. And what I'm really interested in is how we can apply the efficiencies and tooling that we've seen emerge in the web three space, to a, generational old generations old governance structure, which is the museological care practice of conservation. And so I think that the potentials for this tooling can lead us to prototype a new kind of cultural infrastructure that maybe puts the power back into the hands of artists. So just to set up the space a little bit, I'm gonna be showing some artworks. This is a work by Faith Holland. You know, time based media art has always been treated as sort of an outsider art in the contemporary art world. Transfer Gallery is a gallery that focuses specifically on time based media, virtual worlds and contemporary art, and decentralized networks in contemporary art. So we are a gallery that experiments with this, but something that's sort of treated still as an outsider art. I think we saw this come to a head with the emergence of NFTs. Right? Because great art really helps us understand our current cultural moment. Great contemporary art helps us do that. It helps us parse all the challenging things that are coming to us in this moment. And because this work was kind of pushed to the outside, we didn't have that kind of thinking as a culture for the last decade as these technologies have really developed and changed. So as a culture at large, we really couldn't see the changes that were coming from decentralized economies. And obviously in this moment, right, the contemporary art world was the first industry after finance to really be disrupted by decentralized economies. So artists have an enormous amount of power. And they actually hold the keys to the cultural understanding of what decentralized economies will bring to us. So I think that, you know, this, this work is really a reminder that our data has a physical endpoint and we're all sort of perched on the edge of a very precarious situation regarding infrastructure and data storage. And I think that contemporary art has a practice of care that can kind of help us all in this moment. So, you know, time based media conservation is a well developed practice. I'm fortunate to have worked alongside a lot of these folks and studied their craft and the way they create a sort of time capsule around a media artwork. I'm showing you this beautiful work from Rodell Warner. It's an also an artistic gesture of preservation. So he's taking these endangered species from the Caribbean, from the Caribbean Islands and creating this sort of shimmering act of care, presenting them in these beautiful encasings. And I think that this is a a beautiful visual representation also of what conservation is about. Right? So how can we create a time capsule so that in a hundred years, a practitioner with the same kinds of methods can pick up that data and perform it reliably to the artist intent. That's in a way that's true to the piece. So this is just a bunch of nerdy data handling actually behind the scenes. Right? Disc images, checksums, repositories. Conservation is not sexy, but it's really important work. And so the provocation that I'm now presenting to some artists that I've been working with for a very long time is saying, you know, what if we were all to set up nodes of data storage in our homes, in our office, in our intimate spaces, and start to care for our data together in a different way? And I think this is really what we're doing when we collect a work of art even if it's a painting or a physical medium, right? We're taking this object and tending to it and bringing it into this sort of dwelling with this data and with this object. And so how can we also do that with data? What does it mean to collect and care for an artwork that's a video game or a virtual world or an online piece? So this is a project that's many iterations in the making. I'm just going to take you very quickly through the background of that. I think what's really different about this project that I'm sharing with you all is we've been sort of testing governance as a group of individuals for ten years in the real world and now we're looking to apply tooling. And I think a lot of what's happening in the Web3 space is the other way around where the tooling comes first and the behaviors are meant to follow. But so what we've been thinking about, and we called it the transfer archive early on, and it was the system to reverse the power structures in the contemporary art world in favor of the artist studio. Right now much of the contemporary art world as a business is very extractive and sort of runs on the labor and generosity of artists. And so the the provocation of the transfer archive and I built these front end prototypes. I'm also a user experience specialist in addition to running this contemporary art gallery. So I wanted to put this in the hands of artists. I got a bunch of feedback from them. How can we make the relationships transparent when I'm talking about a work of art? You know, how can we make some of the, administrative, overhead kind of shared among a system, among a set of algorithms and screens, as opposed to having that be, you know, a gallery model? I think a lot of this sounds familiar to you all who have followed the development of NFTs. And more importantly, like how can we encode and create a standard for conservation care practices? That's kind of what you see here. How do we describe a work of art? Right. And I think that history has shown us over and over again that artists set the standards for cultural behavior. And the use case in the studio is clear, especially after NFTs, that data is the value of the studio. And I believe soon everyone will have that kind of relationship to value. This is another experiment I ran starting in 2018 called The Current. It was a decentralized museum well before the boom. And what we did is we put these decentralized storage nodes in the homes of our members. So as a member, you came to an event, you spent some time with media art. You see here a little folio on the sofa there. This is a virtual reality work. And we gave all the information about what it means to own a work of art like this, to care for it, to tend to it. We gave people the choice to vote on what they think is meaningful to build a collection. So we had many, many more people deciding about cultural legacy together. And that experiment really showed me that, you know, installing a data drive and those of us who work really in decentralized web understand we're sort of beyond the actual physical endpoints, but still to create a relationship with data that's transformative in this moment. Just putting that NAS drive and seeing the lights blinking in your home, you have this relationship of care to the data and knowing that you're kind of keeping it online. So during the pandemic, I started through transfer to do a bunch of solidarity model experiments. The first was called, well, now what the fuck, a bunch of artists. It was about a 100 artists. We tried to figure out what we were going to do. Everything was canceled. So we wanted to start redistributing money, we were sponsored by Giphy and gave every artist a little bit of cash. I also did an experiment called Pieces of Me through transfer, this is still online. And this was really seeding the idea of redistribution of wealth and how can we come together to commit resources, and maybe redistribute them, in a new way. And, just checking my time here. Thank you for the time check. I think the answer here is this idea of the decentralized data trust. I'm gonna go through this pretty quickly. I I presented too much in the background there. So the vision is that it's a peer to peer artist archive and cultural value exchange protocol. It's offered to institutions, galleries, and others as a prototype for a decentralized cultural infrastructure. This shows you a little bit how it works, that the trust, sort of, funds and operationally supports artists to create this decentralized network. RevShare then comes in hopefully in a sustainable way. And what I'm really interested in is how an organization operationally supports a cooperative trust that's maybe more automated because I think DAOs are a big myth in that there's always humans, there's always labor. And so as a sort of bridging effort, I'm interested in what a trust model might look like with some automated components. So it's maybe nonprofit, but it's actually being governed by smart contracts in some interesting ways. So this outlines, sort of where we're at with what the trust is all about, where, you know, we are asking artists to commit what is called an artist proof. That is typically something an artist holds on to for their lifetime. So we're asking to commit that data to trust. And then also think about how exchange works within the system. We're looking at a lot of things like time banking from experts to think about how, you know, we can continue to care for this data in a long view sort of way. And yeah, hopefully it results in a resilient infrastructure of care, reversal of power dynamics. Also hopefully helps tell a larger cultural story about the fact that our data has value and we can take sovereignty over it and own it and care for it and think about it in a different way. So yeah, I'm really curious to hear from you all, like what resonates with you in this concept? What similar structures have you seen in the cooperative and Dow world? And what other resources and examples might we want to be taking a look at?

So so if I understand correctly, it's really more about conservation and archiving as opposed to some of the more commercial use cases around private confidential information storage that requires some sort of secure multi party or information, theoretic, secure storage or backup, if you will, or even computation on the data. But it really more is about kind of public good and and archiving. Is that is that accurate?

It definitely stems from a place of public good. Yeah. And thinking about a sort of cooperative sustainable model for artists who are performing and reperforming and caring for this stuff that's obsolete. It's just constantly obsolescing and has to be updated. So it's a way to kind of find efficiencies around that. Yes. There is also a commercial element to it. And maybe I didn't talk too much about that. So thank you so much for the question. But the idea is that using something like the Protocol Labs Filecoin ecosystem, which is based on, right, proof of space time, this concept that data can be verified to be stored for a certain period of time. There's this concept now, emerging for a data DAO where we can actually form liquidity around the value of data itself. And I believe since we already have this well practiced conservation care method for data through the art world, we're super interesting use case for a proposition like that, like how can we actually quantify the value of data, hold that in trust, invest around it in a different kind of way and together. And so the archiving, yes, it's a super important part of it, because your data has more value if it's gonna be around if it's cared for with this Longview method, if it has that kind of insurance or assurance of permanence. So I think there are definitely a bunch of use cases and we're thinking about those around the encrypted, private, you know, the full archival information package. Also sensitive data. Right? Like, part of what we wanna do is make this more transparent, but pricing data is very sensitive in the art market. It's typically they try to obscure the data around pricing until it goes to auction or secondary market. But we wanna think about how we can fine tune what some of that control means with cryptographic methods essentially to provide data that data to the right people, right, maybe more openly. So I think so.

Yeah. It's interesting to, you know, how you kind of cross over from the because it seems like from the decentralized file storage side of things, the, you know, IPFS are we seems to have that kind of covered. But on the kind of private and also layering in computation on that, you know, there's projects like Million, right, that are looking at ways to apply secure multi party computation to that, right, in the information theoretic secure sort of way. And so, you know, I I'm I I wouldn't need to look more or try to understand more about maybe the tokenomics of how you incentivize, people to, you know, care for or provide the public good.

So I'd be curious to see that.

Yeah. Thanks thanks for that reference too. If you could drop that in the chat for me just so I have a link to check out that project, I'd appreciate that. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you. Great question also. And, you know, I'm sort of on at the very start of a project where I'm getting some grant funding to explore these issues a little bit further, but I wanna do both of these things. I wanna do a cooperative trust. So I I'm maybe very idealistic, but I want there to be a way where, our commitment to each other cooperatively is it's it's represented as a very flat structure. I think in the history of art, we've seen artists to try trying to cooperatize many times, but there's usually a financial interested party that comes in and holds some sort of ownership to that. So I'm very interested in a flat structure where the artists who are committing their work are committing to each other and to maintenance of that work for our lifetimes, for the longevity of this project. Right? So in that sense, it is a trust and a value that, you know, this is a long term vision, but I also want it to be about that shared ownership and participation. And we're sort of in the process now of starting we're gonna start with 10 artists. And what's beautiful is that for the past decade at the gallery, we have been supporting and participating and and boosting each other in these ways in these ways of mutual exchange. Right? Like, one artist is a great photographer, and that's their side hustle, and they come in and document the other artist's work. Or one artist is a coder, and that's his day job, and he comes in and troubleshoots the other artists who are trying to do code based work. Right? So there's there's already these great examples of labor exchange and care exchange, which map really well to these conservation and care practices. So I think with the addition of the artists who are committing their work and committing to sort of help form this cooperative trust, the experts who are time banking around that and the value that they're moving in and out of that system, those folks can also rotate. So I'm seeing that like network of specialists as sort of the ongoing operational support. And then, of course, what I'm really interested in is, like, how can an organization or an entity like transfer also be operational support for a trust like that. So what does it mean for an organization to sit alongside a trust that, you know, it doesn't have financial stake in in that way? Right? I, as an individual, will. The other artists who are committing will, but the organization won't necessarily. So it's all a sort of new philanthropy or public good or or model that I'm trying to prototype with these artists. And I think like my hypothesis is that algorithms can help us do a lot of this. And if we're really honest about the human labor underneath all of that and value that as part of what the algorithms are computationally outputting, right, and making decisions based on, I think that could be a really interesting kind of hybrid system in this moment as we're learning what these things can do.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for the great question. And that's what I think is really interesting about the contemporary art use case right now, right? Because there's a new market that's emerged around NFTs. And that valuation to someone else's point is all transparent and out there. It's largely been speculative. It's a giant gambling game. We all kind of know that on the other side of the curve, but it caused a lot of confusion in the art market. Now the art market also has a system of valuation and that's around appraisal and appraisal is a, you know, neutral third party process again, you know, generations old. And with database work, there is a process for appraisal where you get a condition assessment, which again is all the technical background, all the context, everything a conservator would care about, And that's provided to an appraiser to value the work. Appraisal has a lot of standards for how they value work. They look at pricing of your peers. They look at past sales, they look at all these other data points and then they assign a value to the work. So I'm trying to smash these two things together since we can do this appraisal in the art world, I now have a financial value that's backed that I can say the data represents that value. The holding of that data represents that value. So I think it'll be really interesting to start to make all these kinds of things transparent. Also to Steve's point, like in web three and NFTs, we didn't really talk about what's obscured in the art world. We kind of just remade the worst parts of it with a new presumably open, decentralized system. So I think it'll be really interesting to start to make some of these things around valuation value, value over time, and care, which is human labor, which will never go away, the act of care. Right? Make those more transparent and part of the conversation.

Yeah. Thank you so much for the reference. And I think it does really apply here and that's when I'm really thinking about like time banking and care. And like I don't I don't want to financialize those. There's no token. Right? Like there's no speculation here, value exchange going on when we're doing those kinds of non financial transactions. And so I'm really curious about that space and, and you know, how that can create other kinds of value. Yeah. Thank you for the reference.

woo woo. Yeah.