The House Of Wonder And Disagreement
In April this year, Jon was invited to help launch a new community-centre-cum-democracy-hub in the city of Stavanger, Norway, with the brilliant name of The House Of Wonder And Disagreement - and of a world-first project to create a standing citizens’ assembly as part of a city’s governance from outside of government…<br>As part of the launch, Jon hosted a conversation with Jan Inge Reilstad of KÅKÅ, the organisation running the project, and leading Norwegian journalist Hilde Sandvik, to find out more - and ask whether democracy needs saving everywhere, even in the Nordics.
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Transcript
Welcome to How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy but know it needs to change. I'm John. And this time, we're sharing a conversation I hosted in Stavanger in Norway earlier this year as part of the launch of a fascinating new community and participatory democracy hub in the town with the wonderful name of the House of Wonder and Disagreement. At the same time as opening a new space, this was also a celebration of a new standing citizens assembly run from outside of government, which I think could become a template that other democracy pioneers follow. My guests for this exploration of how to save democracy in Norway were Jan Inge Rahlstadt, creative director of CoreCorps, the organization behind both the House of Wonder and Disagreement and the New Citizens Assembly, and prominent Norwegian journalist Hilde Sandvik. Hilda, first, if you would introduce yourself a little bit as if none of these people knew you because all of the people listening to this won't. And I'd love to understand a bit more about what motivates you to do what you've done,
to date and what you're doing right now. Well, that's a big question. And thank you so much for for letting me come to this podcast and talk about something which is really on my mind almost constantly. I am a journalist. I was editor for a paper of ten years, and then I stopped doing that ten years ago. And, I wanted to create a Nordic public sphere, a Nordic debate, a Nordic conversation, because I do truly believe that without knowing your neighbor in these times we're living in right now, we are in a massive threat from all over, which means that I also do believe that we have something specific in The Nordics, which is to be, guarded, in a good way. Not protected, guarded and to be growing, actually. So that is that is,
Garders as in gardeners?
Guard yeah. Lovely. Actually. Because you need gardeners in this wonderful, both the way we'll kind of have created some of these I mean, the the specifics of The Nordics, but also to to be able to see what is under threat and what needs to be brought up. But I also do believe that we, in The Nordics, have something very valuable for the world right now, and perhaps also to be a model. I created this and I I first I wanted to create a a media platform, which I call The Bridge, which is, of course, based on this very famous bridge between, Sweden and Denmark in Malmo. Yep. It's known from a crime series that I also think I do believe you had it in in The UK, actually, that it was sent there. And, I it started out as a kind of a written platform where people could write articles, debates. I also, together with a Swedish company, created a kind of a social media, which was a combination between social media and the media platform. But very, I I came to the conclusion that if we're we if we're gonna create this conversation, it needs to be voices because, it is through conversations that we can really meet the others. And the Nordic countries, I mean, seen from the outside, it looks similar. It looks like I mean, it's all Scandinavia. It all looks the same. People are the same, but we are really not. There are small differences between Norway Sweden and Denmark and also now Finland. The it we call it, the the narcissism of the small differences. Yep. And, I on the the premises, I was able to create a podcast with a Danish person and a Swedish person and also from time to time a Finnish person called or Donskin, which means, the Norwegian, the Swede, and the Dane. Very good. And, we use our own languages, actually. And every week now, we are transmitted that, broadcast we're broadcasted in Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland every week, international broadcasters, where we really discuss matters that are on huge of huge importance for all of our societies, and also go into huge debates, because I do believe that what we have in The Nordics is the ability to to talk amongst each other, to actually have huge discussions and still be friends. Wonderful. And we can I mean, in this podcast, I'm kind of if you if you would put me on a scale, I don't know if this is makes sense, but I'm seen perceived to be kind of social liberal? The Swedish person on the podcast, she's Marxist. And and she she's or she calls herself a censor Marxist. She drinks censor, but she's a Marxist. Very good. Yes. And then we have the some pain socialist. And then we have the Danish, participant. He's he is an actor. She is she is a journalist such as myself. He is an actor, but he is also kind of he is moving from he's quite conservative, sometimes very conservative, and very Danish. But he's also he is he is a he's also Danish Pakistani. Okay. So we bring in this into the mix. Lovely. And have all these big discussions we can also talk about very small and representative
a sort of in in a way into the national to the cross national culture. Neither of us would, would be able to represent. I mean, I'm not I cannot represent Norway as such. Well, you're doing it on this podcast.
I'm more kind of I I'm more I am from the Western Part of Norway, which also it's very important for me that I actually don't live in Oslo Yep. Actually.
Let's hold that thought and bring Janninger into the into the room and into the conversation. So Janninger, please, let us know a bit more about you and your journey to this point with Car Car.
Yeah. It has, Car Car has been for twelve years now. And, I was at the university before that and come from the cultural and literal literature field. And, and Korokomo started in 2014. It was a kind of effort to to bring in it to to Stavanger, to the city, a new place for grown ups to to meet
and And you translated COCO for me. What's the what's it mean? Yeah. KOKO is, the acronym,
in sound, of Kveruland Cathedral in Norwegian. That means in English something like the Cathedral Of Quarrels or something like that, I think. The Cathedral Of Quarrels. Yeah. Something like that. It's, I think I don't know if if it's a word in, in English, but I think they have it in the other Nordic countries, krolant. So that was, to to tell the world that we were a freer, place to be than the the house of dialogue or the literature house. Yeah. Here it was possible to to disagree. Like this house, we started here, yesterday, the house of wonder and disagreement. We put together these things. I totally agree with Hilde. I think, Hilde, one of the first time you tried out your concept with the Norskin, Svenskin, and Danskin, that was, in fact, at one of our festivals because we do big, national, Nordic festivals as well, one economy festival and, science and philosophy festival. And the thing we do, we in in the beginning, it was for Stavanger, and the Stavanger region to to to to create a meeting place, a platform for people to come and talk about what is important, to be interested in themselves and in the society. There had been a political regime for twenty five years. It was the same. It was called the consent city of consensus, Stavanger. So it was a a lame city without much debate, and not much going on. And, so we we wanted to to to create a plat a free platform with a spirit to it, where it's possible to build what we called we produce a kind of community through our places, through our festivals as well. And we call it, the community of disagreement, and that means to to bring in all the different perspectives and disagreements that exists and make it a common place, a place to be for everybody. Not polarized, but, like, you know, around the fireplace if you want to then. And, that that is still, I think, the the vision of whatever we do. And, then, we experimented for many years. Hilda was a part of that as well. We did the Kalmar. The we did the Kalmar union two, zero. Uh-huh. Yeah. Because
we think, you know, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark should be one in fact. Okay. Good. Yeah. Yeah. And, I don't know how scary that would be to many people, but I'll go with it for the sake of this conversation. I I can tell you that the it has been tried a couple of times to reestablish a common union. One
of the reasons why it never happened was that UK
didn't want us to. That sounds like us. Say yes. We're very constructive in these things. Sorry. I didn't
Yeah. So but after a few years, dealing with many diff that's important too. We we try always to be creating new formats, experiment, with the ways we are dealing between the stage and the audience, if you like. So we do debates, we do conversations, we do lectures, we do workshops, whatever, and always try to to make it in a in a new way. And and to put into that the kind of, you know, enlightenment, bar, to to to enlighten ourselves together. So, the next step was to to do something on economy. I had this vision. I have to do something on economy. We need it. Political economy first and foremost, and, that became a festival in the end of twenty seventeen. First, I visited, in fact, Kilkenny. I think you know about Kilkenny. They have a comedy and economy festival, in the autumn there. I was there in 2016. Kilkenny is a very small town, medieval town, 25,000 people, a lot of very old pubs, 200 years old pubs. And in the backroom of these pubs, where this festival going on, And they sat Janis Varoufakis and, big time economists crawling with, locals, ten, twelve people. I thought, what the fuck's going on? I need that in my town. Yeah. It was it was very it was it was so stimulating to see that it was possible. Not crowding on a big stage with 5,000 people, but but, Conversations with the group. Involving in a way. So I brought that back and made it in a kind of Norwegian Nordic fashion here in in in Stavanger. And, you know, nobody believed in that, at all, but we did it anyway. And we started off with fifty fifty debates and conversations the first year, and I have never seen, queues like that anytime because we didn't have a system for it. So it was all down the, you know. And, so we we we found out people want because what we did, we we we we looked, and found the best, people, the the best thinkers, the best writers, you know, and put them together into this festival, and and and people trust trusted that and wanted that. So we gave them something they didn't get from, the traditional media system or or anywhere else. And already in 2017, this new technological, what should we call it? It's not a it's it's a revolution, of course, but, it has done so much wrong with us. So so so to to create the physical spaces that Yep. The physical platforms where you meet eye to eye and you you talk with the best people and you have the best conversation, that is that is, you know, my, contribution if I have any to to be a democracy saver because and I believe in that. I believe more and more in that. Of course, it's very important with the podcasts and and with the with the with the formats that can reach, from over physical space. But I think, like Ivan Kostav said under the pandemic, when when, we didn't have, the was was allowed to meet more than, I think, it was maximum 50 people or something like that. He said that, if this continues, democracy will die. It has to die. It can't cannot live without the physical meetings, without an eye to eye connection.
No chance for democracy. And so that's now I'm just bringing that up to speed with this new latest initiative. So we're sitting in the courthouse, the House of Wonder and Disagreements and Democratic Innovation, and you're about to launch the Stavanger City panel. Could you just put that into the mix? Because I think this is pretty much a world first.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know a lot about, citizen assemblies, and and you have been writing about it in your book and probably will in your next. This is, our new leg then, our new, approach to to have our own house again with, many possibilities into it and to, invite, the inhabitants of this region, to to new formats. And and the citizen assembly's thinking has been yeah. It's it's it's a it's a lot more of of that in into Europe, I think, than into Norway. And we are starting Norway's first city panel here tomorrow. And,
And how many citizens is it? In in Stavanger? Yep.
140? No. I mean, how many on the panel? How many? We sent out 5,000 invitations and, almost 20%, answer. They wanted to sit into the panel, which is, I think, no never happened before, in fact. And, it's 33, people, that has been picked out, to to represent the city, to mirror the city. So it's from 18 to 79 years old. And they will be meeting, from, from, August, and they will deal with different kind of cases every season. And we will assure them that their recommendations and their solutions, for the city and city development, will be brought to the politicians in a way that they have to deal with. And this is also, the reason I wanted to do this is because the Coke has been on and have many platforms, and possibilities to bring the recommendations from such a panel into the world. Because the panels I I have seen, before, last year, there was a great panel in Norway, the first national panel they called Framptis Paneled, the the panel of the future or something like that, first time. And, so Central and Oslo did, did that, for the government. And, we we brought the recommendations from them into both Wonderful World and Coconomics, presented that last year, but nobody else did that. And and and and the problem with the with the city panels this far or the citizens' assemblies has been that they work. They do it. It's they have a great time. Everyone in the panel always says that this is fantastic. Yeah. We have must have more and more of this, but it tends to die two seconds after the recommendations is given. And has this ability with with the festivals, with the festival papers, with with this house, with all the stages, with all the things we do to to keep, the debate, keep up the conversations, to to to to frame it to frame it in such a way that it, in fact, works. I would you know, Stanger has had two, assemblies, Not a city panel, but but two assemblies on them. One of them for for the elderly. And I talked to to one of them in that assembly the other day, and he told me that it was a great experience being a part of that assembly, and they worked hard and did a lot and had a lot of recommendations, for the politicians. And afterwards, when the politicians are making the their policy, the the new policy for the elderly people, nothing. He he found nothing from there in there. And this is, so some so Coco just a second. Coco is we are Coco. Anyway, are working with a deliberative democracy. So the representative democracy, the electional, democracy, with the politicians, it's it's difficult for people to engage. We want to to we want the people and inhabitants to engage with, themselves, with politics, with society, and how to do that. And and the panel thinking is new for us, and, I I I really believe in it. I want to bring in more of it and I want to do this city panel in a way that makes every city, in Norway having this in a couple of years only. So we have to do it, really good. Power. Yeah. Power to people.
So this is I mean, I I want to come back to the kind of the roots and the and the soil out of which this is growing. But but just to say for everyone here and and the listeners of of our podcast, this is pretty remarkable as an experiment because there are some city panels around the world, around Europe, but they're generally commissioned by the city government. Yeah. They're they're run explicitly as part of that. So Paris has a standing citizens assembly as part of its governance structure, a 100 randomly selected people. Copenhagen has a city panel. But Stavanger, I believe, is pretty much the first to set this up from outside of government and use the the energy of a
of a cultural organization like Corcor to to to build the momentum of that. Yeah. I I I visited Copenhagen,
momentum of that. Yeah. I I I visited Copenhagen, so I I I knew about Copenhagen. So I visited, them. I visit I think you have visited what's what are they called? The We Do Democracy Yeah. Organization. And, obviously, the the the the government, the city council in in Copenhagen. And, they do a a great job there, but this is also the power, as you say, of of our attempt here that it's coming from the outside of the government, and we do it if the politicians want wants it or not. If the if the media and political commentators want it or not. Because, we we we believe in what we are doing. We believe, in in in the people, and and and the the worth of doing it, I think the politicians will they they will use some time to accept it and see the the how how important it is to do something like this.
So so, Hilda, I'll come to you and let's let's take a bit of a step back from the city panel and to the broader context. So from the outside, Norway has, I think their latest OECD numbers were something like 48% of people have high or moderately high trust in the national government. In The UK, that's something around 20 something percent. So it's nearly double. In Sweden and Denmark are fairly close to that mark as well if we if we consider the whole Nordic region as you do. I'd love to just hear some of your reflections on, like, why is that what is the Nordic model that make that that that is behind some of those numbers? And then and then why does it matter that we're doing this sort of thing as well? Like, do we need do you even need to be doing something like this?
The numbers in Scandinavia and the Nordic countries are also dropping, but not dramatically as they've done in The UK or or in the rest of of Europe or or the Western world, where trust is something you don't have. And there are lots of reasons for that. I think the short distance between who you are as a citizen and the the people in power I mean, today, I was about to I wanted to invite the the culture minister in Sweden for a show in in September, and I I could just write to a guy I know and say, can you ask her? And it's like this, and then I get an answer. And that would never happen. For instance, I I mean, I I'm around. I moderate lots of conferences. The ministers come in. They get me a cup of coffee. It's not that you have some secretary or some someone else doing that, and they even dry up. I mean, if if they spill something, they got go and get some napkins, and and they clear it themselves. And that is not what you see elsewhere in in in Europe or or in the world, actually. And I think that is one of the reasons why the trust has been pretty high.
However, I need to say Just before you go on, there's one there's one thing I wanted to dig into particularly, which I gather there's a kind of a cultural phenomenon of, like, community work, unpaid community work as well. Do not. Do not.
Duknot is is the national word in Norway, which means actually that we all have to pile up and do our community works at schools where the kids are or wherever or the sports club or where you are gathered. It's expected.
However, that is also under kind of What does that literally mean? Just before you go I just have to say, you know, this, thing we run here at Coco, that is, based Based on Dugnod. Based on Dugnod as well. Because we have a lot of volunteers. We couldn't do it without,
and Yeah. And the civil society is also pretty pretty strong, which means that if you go through our our Norway, you could find people organizing different formal associations or unions or whatever. It is also an organizational society, and that is I mean, that was Norway is actually almost drawn out from this thought that every person can form their own organization. And in 1825, that was actually basically, it it was a rule. We were out of Denmark, we didn't we no longer were in this Danish, colonial, sphere. And, this thought that you could form congregations outside of the church was very important for a guy called Hans Nilsson Hauge, and he actually went to prison for our rights to form our own organizations and associations. Which is, then, the the Norwegian word for that, which means that you have freedom to organize. Yeah. And that built lots of organizations. I mean, I write and speak. There are two written languages in in Norway, and is, the minority language a written language. And I write that, and that is also protected by law. And, and, you had organization for workers, but also for for people who didn't drink or for, lots of it. And that was actually one of the reasons, why Norway had all these, organizations, associations is also the fact that we had, for four hundred years, Danish priests coming over, and they had their herds everywhere, and they taught people, the farmers and everyone, to to to read and write, to be able to read the bible themselves, which meant that when Denmark was out, then you had lots of farmers around in Norway who could actually read and write and also joined in creating the first constitution, one of the first in the world. So that is also kind of part of the story of Norway. There's almost a cultural identity of
both getting stuck in and doing community stuff, but also actually of of of forming organizations on your own terms. Mhmm. That you'd say that's a Yeah. That's a Norwegian thing. Yeah. It is very much a Norwegian
thing. And you can also find that in across The Nordics, but this is specifically a Norwegian thing. However, and I I need to say this because I don't think we're talking enough about it. You mentioned, COVID. I do believe that the results and the consequences of COVID has not been yet, researched to the fullest. I do believe that one of the reasons why trust started to slide and has been sliding ever since, very fast somewhere parts of the world, is also due to the fact that people were sitting behind their screens and jumping right into rabbit holes and started to form and shape their own views on society and started to fear other people. And I do believe that the politicians who who kind of closed off, they were either aware of what they were doing or they were not aware of what they were doing. And both is extremely,
yeah. It's quite interesting, and I'll just use this point to to cross reference across to another episode of this podcast. We hosted, the Taiwanese digital minister, Audrey Tung, who was one of the key figures in the Taiwanese COVID response. And what they did, essentially, was crowdsource their entire national response. They set challenge prizes where people could create apps that would track face mask availability in case outbreaks. They set up a phone line where anyone can ring in with ideas for how the country's response could be better. And this was arguably the world's most successful response because they they had second lowest death rate anywhere in the world, but they never went into lockdown. And and as a result, what we one of the key results is we've seen that that actually trust in government in Taiwan and the whole backstory to this about which is not unlike cork or like doing stuff for themselves and then and then the politics stepping into that space. But but the net result has been that actually trusting government in Taiwan is up around 70% at the last, of the last election. And so and that, I think, speaks to something very interesting. Perhaps we had to be away from one another, but did we have to see all of the information and power held away from us? I think is the sort of question you're asking. Is that right? It is. And I also do believe that, especially the way we treated the youngsters,
and, I mean, keeping youngsters away from school. One of the consequences after the COVID epidemic is that we have an epidemic in Norway where youngsters actually, they want they don't want to be in school. Mhmm. And they don't go there, which is awful.
I have one of them at home. Yeah. So to bring me into so we've got some of the strengths of of Norwegian culture, actually. The culture of democracy, you could you could call it. What what's the next so if trust in democracy your trust in government, sorry, has dropped significantly, and from the numbers I was looking at, something like a 16% drop in well, actually, a drop of a third, but absolute term 16% in two years. So it's it's that's quite a cliff. And you've mentioned COVID, but tell me a bit more about, like, are there specific challenges here, or do you think they're the same challenges as across the world?
I also think, I mean, due to this, what I talked about is this freedom of association or of associating yourself, it is also that we are living in an oil country, and this part of region, and Stavanger is the oil capital, And for a very long time, it has also shaped and formed our identity. And one of the identities is that, whenever there is something out in the field we need to catch, either it's fish or it's oil, we can do it. We are pragmatic. We have the knowledge. We can do it, and we're pretty good at it. And this has been, in many ways, it's also creating this huge hub here with people who are creatives, who are they, very good in engineering, sub, I mean, everything underwater. The best in the world. And then you get kind of a European, but also an other push on, for instance, on climate crisis, on lots of things where the politicians, as we've kind of can feel it here, are putting a big cloth over everything that has been the advantage and say that this is bad. And, of course, that also creates a huge anger because people feel very angry when you have submerged yourself into something. You have worked on it. You have worked very hard on it, and you've done things, and then you don't get appreciated. You get told that you are an evil person. And then, now I'm just I mean, because this is also some it's also parts of the Norwegian Norwegian quotation mark identity
Interesting.
Which is, of course, very problematic and, challenging. And I think one of the reasons why trust in government is falling is that people also feel that outside of Oslo, Oslo sits there. I mean, they can create they don't create anything we say here. They just they they get the money over, and they live from the finances. And Oslo is getting as it's getting more and more into a normal capital where people in the capital, they have more, they are richer, they inherit more, they they go to work and they shift money, and they kind of push money over there and then you push them further on. But we do the work and then we don't get the chat we don't get to to to be kind of celebrated for that. This is interesting. And this is a common phenomenon as well. Right? The the phenomenon of the capital cities. Yes. The UK very much has it with you. Very much.
The the I think France has it with Paris to a large extent as well. Okay. But there's this particular flavor of Norway's some Norway's success, Norway's identity and not just the actual oil, not just the fossil fuel, but the the technologies and the expertise that has been around.
But, for the Nordic model, we have to mention the three part cooperation, I think, to to define the Very much. The the the Nordic model and the success of that, I think, that that the workers and the corporate leaders and the politicians, they talk together every year and agree on on the wages.
For the whole country? So step back. Tell me this in a bit more detail. So there's a the Nordic model.
Yeah. That, there's a three part corporation, going on every spring. I think it's it's probably Now? Now. Yes. And, and this works, like the the the the employers' organization and the corporate organization in Hou, and the the politicians, they meet and agree on the how, how how many percent the wages shall rise each each year then. And to compromise about this, brings in a quality element into and and it makes it easier to to have this trust between, everybody in the country, I think. You know, we do the economy festival and and many of the the best, con economists think this is the the main reason we are doing so well, and and the model works so well. Mhmm. But it's not like it's, exportable, this Nordic model, I think, to every part of the world. But it's it's also about the institutions that is, very well crafted.
So there are strong unions, there's a strong corporate Yeah. Body, there's strong Yeah. And that is also I mean, you've had,
you've had quite a high number of people organizing. Yep. And that is also under a threat now. Yeah. Really. And last year, for instance, Elon Musk, actually, he went head on at the Swedes because the Swedish workers at his Tesla factory, they wanted they they went into strike, and that really didn't go well with American oligarch. I mean, that is really nuts to his liking. And but that is the the the fact that we can we, of course, have strike as a measure. However, the fact that that workers sit together with the politicians and the owners and talk, which is it's not the French model where you strike before even talking.
Nor is it the American model.
No. And that is, of course, the level of of, of the the the way of organizing and, and that we have had the right so far. But I've seen there are people who push for kind of diminishing, that right as well.
So take me into this, I think that the common theme between both of you are, of course, is this idea of of the face to face discussion that they're kind of the need for conversation and actually disagreement, I think. Turn you a bit into this space of, like, Hilda, your reaction maybe first to this to the idea of the city panel here. And and and where do you see the place of those sorts of innovations, these sorts of citizens, assemblies, and so on? How important are they?
Every time Mjolnir comes up with an idea and I think, oh, this is a totally impossible idea to to go through with. And Sounds like that might have happened a few times. That's the first thought. And then my next thought is since it's yawning, it will work. So, I mean, that has happened every time, basically. And, every idea that is difficult and impossible is I mean, they those are the best ideas. However, it needs some very specific powers to to to actually have some get some consequences. Because I think, Janine, I mean, there are lots of panels. There are lots of people organizing and wanting to to create a better future, lots of festivals. However, nothing happens. You sit there, you talk, and you go home. The politicians get some scripts. They get some, here is a book for you. You can read all of these these signatures. Nothing happens. And that is kind of an old fashioned, but also very I think the model the and the bureaucracy, and all the what you yeah. What is called in EU called the the the ribbons or the the red tape. Yep. The red tape needs to be I mean, we really need to remove so much red tape from from policy making, which is because it's really destroying trust, it's destroying future, hope, whatever. And that is if you if you and I do believe actually that's the wrong way with this pragmatic. Because if you can if you make a scale, you have cities that are very idealistic. We're gonna be free open city for everyone. Or, if you think about him right now, it sounds as if you're gonna open everything, it's gonna be no border society. And then you have very pragmatic cities, which kind of don't lean into the idealistic thinking. I think the the measure here is that you are pragmatic, but you have the idealism on top of it. So Stavanger is somewhere between the two. Yeah. And I I do think if someone's if someone can do it, it's actually it can be done here.
If someone can do it, then Coco can do it, or if anywhere if a place can do it, Stavanger can do it. Yeah. Both. Both. Mhmm. Yeah. Because I I have to bring in Alexander Shallan, the the most famous author. He he calls Stavanger the
the biggest small town in the world. Yeah. And that is something, because it's not only may I may have some ideas and I have some power, but, there is a everybody knows about each other here, and we have a great network of people. It is a kind it it has become a community. And we we know the the headmaster at the university as well as the the only city original left always with his tongue out and washing windows. They are part of the same, community here, and and that I think that is part of what makes it, possible. But I agree. You have to you have to think outside the box, and you have to fuse things together that,
originally don't fit together, you know, in a way. Just remind me, the population of Stellanger is around 150,000.
Maybe, 140, I don't know.
Ask the audience appears to be there. There's a sort of general consensus that we're in the right tone. And I I
I can say that, I mean, I'm not I'm I don't live in Bergen. I understand. I live in Bergen. Bergen is the next biggest city, and I don't think Bergen could have done this because Bergen has a huge legacy, historic legacy, which is, I mean, back we used to be the capital. Okay. So we are still the capital in our mind.
I I I agree in this, and I have been asked from Copenhagen and other cities, if can we do Coconomics, the economy festival there as well? And I in Copenhagen, I said, yeah, you could try, but I don't believe you can do it because it's it's a too big a city, you know. It's it wasn't worth There's something about that. So that's The size of Stavanger is very important and, makes it a perfect, city to to come through to everybody. If if you have some marketing power or media power, you you you you get to be seen of almost everybody living here and that makes it
There's something very exciting about that from because there are a lot of towns Yes. At this sort of scale across Europe that could that could be watching this and seeing what you do. I'm gonna, see if anyone in the audience wants to pose a question either of me or these folks and and and and and has spotted somewhere this conversation should have gone that it hasn't in just a moment. Before I do that, I just want to give you the chance, Janninger, to speak a little bit to your hopes for the city panel. Like, what's your dream for where this could go?
The dream is that the city panel, will deal with the with the right, cases, the right stuff, and and, make, make it visible, that it is possible to contribute to the development of, ourselves and, to to be a part of creating the the future city and the city region here. And and to for us, it is it is to to make that visible for the politicians, especially, but for the public square to bring it into the public square anyway. And to to to maintain this community we are always working on.
Now I well, I think what I like with the festivals here and also about, this house is that you always you are it's you don't meet the usual suspects in panels in conversations because you bring in a researcher here, people a a CEO in a bank, and a philosopher to talk together about a big topic. And I think that kind of combination is because we are so used to panels where people actually are more or less off from the same sphere, from the same background, and very rarely. And that is one of the reasons why I love working on a Nordic scale, because whenever you bring a Danish person or a Swedish or Finnish person into the discussion, it's like getting more oxygen, into our own homely, debates. And that is what, what Coconomics and Wonderful World actually do every time. And I we need so much more oxygen. We do believe for instance, if you work in culture sector, you do think that all engineers are boring, uninteresting persons. And if you are an engineer, you think that I can't talk to this, author. She's probably just, like, airheaded and, I don't know. But I mean, we need desperately to to meet up with people that we truly disagree with, but we also have so different backgrounds. It's very important to put, the panel together
in a way that, makes them breathe or expand or
they have to move. This is making me even more excited for what you might do with the with the randomly selected citizens panel, actually. Because I think from the example I've seen around the world, examples I've seen around the world, often they are run from within government, their commission. And the remit is set in such a way that they they're wonderful things, and they've done some extraordinary work around the world. Ireland legalized access to abortion largely as the result of a randomly selected citizens assembly. The the citizens assembly the the the standing citizens assembly in Paris has just drafted randomly selected citizens have worked together to draft a new homelessness bill in the city of Paris that's just passed unanimously, and it's has some fascinating things in there. So what I'm about to say, don't take me as undermining any of those things. But I am particularly excited about the idea of this being run as an ongoing randomly selected citizens panel from outside of government by what's essentially a cultural institution with a commitment to this diversity of conversation. I think what you could do here to show how how how citizens can create the space for the politics of their place to move into could really resonate across the world. I'm very excited to see. I will put this on a reel and put it into the social media. That clip is all yours, my friend. Does anyone have anything they'd like to put into the room? We'll take this gentleman here and do raise your hand. We'll maybe take a couple of comments and then come back to these two for final words.
Yes. Yeah. Hello. I'm I'm Harold. I'm an engineer. Married married to an artist.
Well done.
And I don't work for oil industry. But, yeah. But I I must say, I'm not as truly optimistic as you are. Yeah. I think I think definitely our democracy is, yeah, being challenged quite a bit here in Stavanger as well. I think you're doing great work with your festivals. I try to get as many people from Oslo to come over for the most nerdy economic festival every autumn. They never come because they don't think it's that important. But but I think I think, we definitely have some some issues. You can see there is more and more polarizations in in the politics. But I think, like, one of the biggest the biggest issues or the biggest threats to our democracy is basically our wealth. Because we don't have to prioritize any longer. Politicians don't need to be accountable for anything. You could pay you could pay yourself out of any any trouble. We have a tax system that basically, yeah. Both workers and and entrepreneurs, people that actually are creating stuff, actually being taxed quite heavily, while people that are just like, what's it called? Like, store conserving their wealth into property or anything are, you know, they could do whatever they want including, like, pretty ordinary people, that have been lucky with their with their, anything. So so I think and and then this is now I'm gonna come to the the question is, like, if I were a politician, if I were in parliament or anything, I would actually basically, like, every term I would go in into, like, any of these. Okay. What are we basically doing to protect our democracy? How how how can we, like, stress test our democracy? What kind of institutions do we need to build? How can we get more coconomics? And how can we get more better security into our parliamentary system and and everything so that we end up like The US or Hungary or Poland or or anything like that.
Okay. Thank you. Anyone else would like well, we've got time for one more.
And then
Hello, Harlow Stwick, architect, professor at City and Regional Planning at University. I I'm curious about your take on a completely other models than the democracy we're talking about. Here, as you know and as you've been discussing, we elect people every four years, and leave it to them. I haven't seen any politicians in the room, so I don't know what they're learning from this session. My experience at university is that, normally, we try to, involve politicians so that when we do research and develop new ideas, they should come and listen and and learn from it, but they very rarely have time. So I wonder what your take is on the Swiss model, where every big decisions, even small, are actually based on public vote. So the people, meaning us, are voting for or against, any minor or major decisions. That's really taking democracy away, and and moving it to where it belongs, to the people. Thank you.
So I will give you a little response to that and then just have a moment for any closing thoughts from you two. There are plenty of really interesting models all over the world and that's partly why we started the How to Save Democracy podcast. The direct democracy model in Switzerland is fascinating. The way Taiwan crowdsourced its COVID response is part of the whole approach to participation in Taiwan, including lots of digital democracy. The Irish Citizens Assembly is a fascinating model that we've also gone into depth on. Basically, big plug for the podcast.
Any closing words from you, Hilda? Did you enjoy this conversation? I really did enjoy this conversation. I think we need to continue this conversation. I do believe and I also strongly agree, with the gentleman the engineer here on on, on the first row because I think it is I'm also not an optimist, but I I I am a work hard worker. And I do believe that all of us sitting here need to do whatever we can if it's participating in conversations like this or actually do stuff. I think that's our only chance. If we sit back and think everything is sliding, I do oppose I almost hate the idea that Western civilization is about to collapse because I do think there are very strong powers, even either if it's Russia or if it's US, wanting us to believe that we are collapsing. We are not collapsing. We're holding up one of the most really the best models of the world right now, and we need to keep that together.
There we go.
Arnez, was asked, if he believed in the future and he said, yes, yes, yes, very much. So from from around 2100. We we, we just, opened this out house called the House of Wonder, Disagreement and Democratic Innovation. We just started, and it's work. It's work on and just do it. And, you know, we will be doing more deliberative and direct democracy and want to talk to you, Haral, about it.
There we go. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We seem to be needing to clear the stage quite quickly. Thanks for coming.
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