Evelien Nieuwenburg about Dembrane ECHO and mirroring insights from large groups' conversations
Evelien Nieuwenburg is co-founder of Dembrane, a company that is developing a tool called ECHO which uses AI to record conversations of large groups. Analyzing these recordings in real time finally reveals insights into how the group thinks.
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Transcript
Welcome on another episode of Democracy Innovators podcast, and our guest of today is Evelyn, Newenburg. And, so thank you for your time.
Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. Really happy to be here.
And, you you're working on the Brain. Right? You are also a cofounder of the Brain. Yeah. So first question, what is Dembrain?
Dembrain is a civic tech company that builds tools to capture in person dialogue sessions. So from brainstorm sessions, focus groups, to whole citizen assemblies. Basically, whenever you are using post it notes and flip overs, you could use Dembrain to make sure you don't only end up with just a what, but also the why and the whole conversation and all the arguments that are at the table. That's, what we do in a nutshell.
Very large assembly. Can you still hear me okay? Yeah. I hear you. Like, beep yes. Sorry. Because I I didn't see you. I was saying that, basically, it could allow a lot of people to maybe talk together, brainstorm together about a topic. Right?
Exactly. Yeah. So it's really about encouraging people to talk to one another because I think democracy really needs people to come together and speak face to face. But this is super hard to scale and the data analysis is a pain. I come from a qualitative background. Not exactly, but I love qualitative research. I've done it a lot. And the moment you want to reach a high end value and really make an impact that will persuade policy makers, strategy builders, you need to have more than just your 25 interviews and more than just your stack of post it notes to convince them to really do something with what people are sharing.
And, when you had the idea or maybe one of your cofounder, about this tool?
So it's, definitely a collision of worlds. So my cofounder, Jurgen Thijs, he was studying social media for a long time in his master's degree information design and really looking at the infrastructure and architecture of, what was happening behind the scenes in social media and what type of interaction it affords, and then looking at the effects it has on society. And he asked himself the question, what if we were to design a social media platform with democratic principles at the front, and how would it change the architecture and to really allow something that is much more aligned with what we consider in Europe at least as democratic? So he came up initially with a first version which was very focused still on the digital space, more on the digital platform, but also was almost a philosophical architectural design concept, which for most people was a little hard to understand. Now, Jodam and I have known each other for more than ten years, so I knew where the passion came from. I knew the research you have been doing. And from my own, expertise, I'm in innovation scientist by degree. I focused on innovation strategy and policy, and inevitably, I ended up in stakeholder engagement in innovation strategies. And there I saw this problem, as well as in the community organizing that I was doing next to my degree that is just so incredibly hard to really capture the essence and the nuances, all the arguments that people bring to the table that you need to really make a good plan. And his architecture actually was the perfect solution for that. He just didn't know that it would work in this context. So I angled my thesis kind of as a market research angle looking at digital participation tools. And that way, we found also how we could actually use his designs in a practical way. So that was the beginning of, Dan Brain.
Awesome. And, and where you first had the the thought that the technology could help, society? And
I think, for myself, I I was maybe 13 when I first really got into contact with, like, nanotechnology, hearing about it, reading about it. And to me, this was a moment where I was like, woah. This is possible? That is mind blowing, and that means it's almost like magic. I need to understand it, and I need to see what happens. And even though I am by nature a people person, technology was what fascinated me. So I wanted to do an engineering degree. I've now two engineering degrees. But even in my engineering degrees, I'm always looking for the edge where technology meets society and how that comes together, because I think that's where the magic happens. Like, that's where it comes alive. And so I know also for my cofounder that he had a similar moment, like, his, his parents have done a lot of, community work helping people one by one, but a very linear effort in that sense. And for him, technology was always something to scale up beyond what a person can do and really, like, reach bigger impact. And that to him was something that definitely drove him also into the direction of technology. We met in our bachelor's degrees. That's how we've known each other for so long. And, but we went different ways for our masters, but then found our way back together, afterwards.
Okay. And, first, we were saying that there are also other people working, inside the brain. Right?
Yes. Yes. We are, including cofounders. We're a team of seven now.
And, how how is, who is doing what?
So when we started off, was really in charge of the the technical product and building the prototypes. I can only code if I if if it's an emergency, I'd really rather not. It's not something that gives me joy. And so I'm in charge of making sure that we actually can sell, like, positioning the strategy, getting to know what's happening in the space around us, but also building up the team together. And so now we have a product focused team and a, growth focused team. And then we have two people which are their own little small team for operations, because a company also needs some people to do the less very fun start up things, but the super crucial business things. And, especially working with AI compliance is one of these examples that, takes somebody to really be structured and focus for a long time.
And, what was the path of the of the project? Because I see that the project was first called echo. Right? And then it became Dembrain. So how how it happened?
So echo is our product, actually. And the company is still Dembrain, and echo is, like, our first product, part of the bigger strategy that we're working on with Dembrain, which is really about building the infrastructure for democracy and rebuilding trust. But we're also the kind of team that wants to start doing things tomorrow to make a difference, to make the impact, to learn. So we figured, okay, what is the first thing that we need to build? And that is what echo is.
Okay. So there are other, ideas, I think, that you want to implement, that you want to build. And then you can maybe mention some.
So I think right now with echo, the idea is that in the sessions, that we mentioned citizen panels, assemblies, strategies, the idea of echo is is that the sound comes back to you directly. So you very quickly can see your insights. You can see, is the the most important points. This is what we agreed on. Here's the tension. And by giving that back to people, they can verify that. So you don't have to wait weeks until you finally get a report and an outcome, you can actually already do that in your session. And so by starting there, we're working on a bigger vision where it's also the the verification, the sharing of ideas or concepts is something that you can actually do beyond just the the physical setting and going into the space of more more hybrid structures to really enable also the continuous side, of democratic dialogue and exchange because I think that's a really crucial part as well.
Yeah. That is a thing also I was, very curious about, the continuity of, because maybe, you can organize a sort of meeting where people discuss about a certain topic. But then, I don't know, two weeks after, maybe other people could discuss about the same topic, but, like, starting from the previous point. And Yeah.
Absolutely. So one of the the first prototypes of, of of echo was built, on the idea of polis. I think that's quite a familiar, tech in this space, and we called it multiplayer polis. So the idea was that you needed to discuss the statement together and figure out as a group what did we think about it. But also, if you as a group had another idea or wanted to contribute something, you can also put your statement and it became part of the mix. A similar dynamic I think you can create through echo. So through the outcomes per table or for the entire session, can be shared to then be reacted on by new people. And that's also kind of the, the dynamic between having a mini public and a maxi public. Like, how do you make sure that there is also accessibility to a larger public because assemblies are very often a very specific group. Like, if if randomly selected according to golden standard, that's amazing, of course. But even then, it's still, the question, how is the broader support for certain ideas? And finding that interplay is, is also a really crucial one, and that's also something we're exploring right now, for example, with Go Vocal, by doing a partnership together.
So in this way, like, the partnership will be how I mean, not like the market, not the, how they choose software would work together.
I mean, GoVocal is a online participatory platform, where you can do a lot of engagement already, but also what they heard from their stakeholders was that what they also really would like is especially these very dynamic and very energetic moments of, citizen participation, citizen panels, conversations to have that captured as well. And right now, their software doesn't allow for that, so you're still reliant on people taking the notes and then plugging that in. So the idea is that with Dembrain, by getting those insights really quickly, having that used in the sessions, they can then afterwards go onto their platform and then be used in the process as they use it.
But this is very interesting because, something that I felt, because, I mean, we are basically talking about a solution that would enable people to collaborate. And, sometimes there is not so much collaboration in the civic tech space. But, really, I think that, compared to other fields, here, when you find someone that is doing the same of you, we should think that that person is not a competitor, but a potential collaborator.
I I very much agree with this. Like, I think the mission that we have to improve democracy is something that is shared in this space a lot. To think that that is a market where you have a winner takes all situation just seems really contradictory with what we're representing and the values that we're driving. So, finding people that agree with that that are also seeing the importance of interoperability of tools, being able to specialize in a certain area, really refine it, but then also find a way to plug in with other solutions so that once you approach a municipality or a national government, that they have a choice, that they don't have this problem of the big tech lock ins, you know, something that a lot of the public, actors are really scared of. Also, well, historically speaking, something that happened a lot. And I I personally also think that as a European company in a European space, we wanna offer European solutions, but, like, we can't build everything. A lot of the companies also have been working on something. So now suddenly branching into this, like, transcription AI combination and the whole interface that comes there. It's it's not something their company is built to do either, and then finding each other there. I think that's, really special. And this is why, we also joined the group, Okta, which is the Association for Civic Tech Europe. And the whole theme this year, for example, is also interoperability. So finding ways to collaborate, to work together, and to really strengthen the European democracy and protect it.
If I'm not wrong, you are also part as a vice president?
No. Sort of. Yes. Yeah. I am, since this year also the vice president. Indeed.
And would you like to tell us something more about, how how is this interoperability, how is the approach to the interoperability of different software companies?
So, so I gave a talk about this at the Tic Tac two weeks ago as well. And so interoperability initially is something that, like, we we know from a very technical standpoint of view, but what you see is also interoperability on organizational level is something that's coming up a lot more. A really concrete example of where that is applied a lot is health care. And so also looking at the different levels that you have for organizational interoperability is really interesting to also see how we can coordinate ourselves as a field, and to align on that. So, like, the left the first level is basically figuring out, are we using the same words? I think, for me as well, initially, when Dembrain started, we didn't know what to call ourselves. Like, we were just another AI startup. And then we were like, no. We're not an AI startup. We're a Demtech company, like Democratic Technologies. And then we thought we were kind of alone. We're like, well, we can't be the only one, surely. And then we found at some point the term civic tech, and then we found a whole ecosystem. So it's like these types of words can really already help unite us, but it really starts by by by almost syntax, so to speak. And then the levels that come after that are increasingly integrated where the final level is really about having a fully integrated product where the user has one fluent experience as well going through different platforms where the back end also communicates with one another, and it builds up like that. And this is definitely, for example, the aspirational goal that we have with Go Vocal. We're still building towards it. We're not on that level yet. But it also kind of gives us a sense of, like, hey, where are we actually when we're discussing interoperability? But it begins with using the same language. The second one is finding similar values that we are representing, and how we're acting on that. And I think this is also a really interesting one. For example, if we look at The Netherlands, what's happening here, there's a big digitization strategy happening, and a lot of the municipalities are trying to figure it out on their own. So they're asking for a national one. But then, yeah, who is going to be involved in this process, for example? But, again, it comes to also here, figuring out how to make on a country level different elements interoperable. And I think it's a very, current theme.
Yeah. There is, and also, site meta gov, they are working on different ontologies related to interoperability. I mean, because, yeah, the first thing is the language, like, what we are talking about, what is needed. And and, yeah, then I I was curious. So now echo is doing everything in real time. Right? So this means that it's also expensive to run, an assembly, let's say, on echo. Or
or I mean, it's it's still relatively okay. Like, the costs aren't too crazy, and you're still comparing it to bringing in people that need to do handwritten notes, which will also be incomplete. So it depends a little bit on what you compare it to. But but even then, like, transcription isn't isn't the most expensive thing by far. The analysis is is still a lot more expensive.
Oh, this is interesting. And I'm I'm quite curious to know also about the technical, aspects, but maybe not in this, not in this podcast. And, yeah, I have some other question, like, because you provided something about your academic and, I mean, professional background, but maybe you you'd like to talk, to say something about you, about, about your life. I don't know. Also, starting from your childhood.
Okay. Well, I think, as a kid, but also still today, I have been somebody who is, almost notoriously positive. Like, I'm very energized. I am very solution oriented. Like, I always wanna find a way to do something and to stay active. And that is that is very defining, I think, for me as a person. So you will find me also in a lot of places. You will find out that more people know my name and more people than I expect to know my name know me because I'm just going around. I love talking to people. And I was exactly the same when I was younger. Lot of energy, always played sports. I'm absolutely a team person also. So this is also where building a company for me is a completely strange thing. Thing. I didn't know I was going to do this. I had no idea until it was happening. And then the way I approach it is like I the way I approach learning to play with a team, in sports back in the day. So everybody brings a special quality, but you also need to figure out how to harness it, and how to make them grow, and what is it that challenges them. So I think this, this is another very, repeating pattern in my life. Also, when I was in university, this was something that I did that I didn't even understand that I was doing. But I was really trying to figure out everybody's position and how to make people play together in the best possible way to give them enough space to do their own thing and at the same time be aligned enough to then make it come together relatively seamlessly. And I think this is something, that I'm only understanding now that I was actually good at that. And that was something I provided to the team, that that's not a given to be present in every team. And also maybe it's because I'm the oldest. I have two younger siblings as well. There's a sense of responsibility, but my sister and I are really close together. So we did everything together as well, when we were younger. So sharing and caring, went hand in hand as well in my childhood, and also something, yeah, next to my university degree while I was studying. I got a lot of knowledge there, but I didn't necessarily get the, the social engagement and wanting to be part of the city, the culture that was happening there as well. So I did a lot of volunteering on the site and also setting up, one now of the the largest queer communities in my city, which was really meant to be a low, low barrier meeting place that wasn't about parties, but that was really about connecting people, making sure that you had a place to talk, to explore. So also really focused on younger queer people that didn't necessarily wanna go to these really loud parties. And these parties are also not a great place to meet people, so it was much more about board game nights, having a craft afternoon, these types of activities. But it was always linking back to what I was also learning from innovation studies, from how landscape shifts affect the practices that are happening in technology, but also, in in practice in society.
And, I I was thinking about what you are saying that, more people don't more people knows you. That that is also something that I felt here.
Okay.
They're not like, I also had this thought related to me. Yes. And, and, also, I I was was try to, to foster collaboration, but sometimes I failed. Because, yeah, I remember in, also in high school, I I have done high school when I was a little bit older, and, my goal was actually to okay. Let's try to go out from this evening high school, and let's try to, to have a sort of team, where we can, work together. But I discovered that is not all the people want to collaborate.
And this is Yeah. And, about Yeah. About
no. If you want to say something, otherwise, about the the queer community, I mean, tech is, in some way, a sort of men space, has been colonized by men as other kind of spaces. So what are your thoughts about it?
I mean, the the majority of people around me are still men still today, which can be challenging in terms of culture. Like, sometimes I do really miss female energy, and that is not to say that men don't have a feminine side, but it's not necessarily something that in the space is created, space for, I think. And I think that's a bit of a shame and especially seeing what is happening in tech. I think the element of care is so important, and this is something that is accessible to anyone, but the culture really needs to adopt it, and that is definitely something I see, with women who are in this space. They have an extraordinary amount of care that they bring into their development, to their strategies, to their products, and that is really inspiring. And I think sometimes this is, for me personally, the hardest part where finding role models that you recognize yourself in that give you a way of, like, oh, okay. This is a path I can follow while being myself, while staying true to my qualities and values can be really challenging. And this was something I found quite hard in, the first year, especially. Like, there's so much coming at you and not really having a role model and somebody you can connect with on that, more softer level, I wanna say. That that's that's that that was challenging, and that's something I hope that this space can have more of also for for the men and, all the other genders to to feel like there's space for that because I think that's also key to building a sustainable culture in your own company. You need you need an element of care to one another as well and to the company and to who you're serving.
Yeah. Absolutely. And, also, thinking about the fact that this kind of tools, I mean, in in the future could enable, maybe a different way for citizens to, I mean, for people to to decide, to talk about problems and then to and also to decide. So in some way, I mean, it's a things that regards everyone. And and so will be nice to have, inputs from all different genders, but also different kind of classes also.
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And and for to to feel like it's an access a space that you can also belong to. Right? Because, we still have a lot of, like, women in tech initiatives, which are really great, and I I'm really grateful for them. And, of course, there's also the sentiment of, like, yeah, but do we still need them? My honest answer is yes, because we want to find each other. It's not easy to find each other, but not just because we want women to be together. Like, we just want to have that space to share. And ultimately, these meetings also help to bring that energy back and to feel grounded in who you are as a person and to be that person again in your own team as well. And I think that's also, a big part of that. So I'm also definitely here for the allies and the people that wanna contribute and and feel that too. Like, let's do that together. Right?
Would be nice also maybe to to organize some sort of, let's say, assembly run on the brain or this kind of tool to find maybe brainstorm about why some maybe genders are not participating and what could be, like, possible solutions.
I mean, I'm always up for a deliberative project that is about future dreaming. I think this is a super important exercise because we can't understand why or what our future could look like. It's really hard to, to go there.
Yeah. And for you, the future, how could it be? How could it be?
I think by, nature, I am somebody who keeps the future open, but determines clearly what I don't want. That is what guides me most. So I know what I don't want, so that is what I'm not doing. But then what do I want? I only understand a part of the space. So I don't think I I know the perfect solution, but it is something that emerges by staying true to your values and not doing things you don't believe in. I think that way the path will unfold.
I'm thinking, about, because, what you are saying is very interesting. And and then I think what I think about what you say, is that I'm very optimistic, in the long term, but very negative in the short term. And, also, when I, was wondering what is the meaning of life, so there are too many 42. Right? To answer. 42. Then I started with, excluding things. So in some ways,
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And and I do feel you because looking at the current geopolitical state of things, it's extremely worrying. It's really I want it's scary to see it and to it's hard to grasp that that this is still happening today. You study history now, so looking at the past, how we've seen these things before, and here we are again, it's it's heartbreaking, I think. And it shows that there's ample of space to to to do something that's better.
Yeah.
Absolutely. And and and yet, there is also, like, this is the moment to then also be bold in what we dream of. So I I am seeing a future that definitely has this deliberative democratic nature. And how exactly we're going to get there or how exactly it will look, I don't know. But also from the the innovation science perspective, we can't go back to what we have done before. We've seen that it didn't work. So we need to innovate the path forward, and I think it's naive to think that somehow we are currently in a position that will sustain itself far into the future. So political innovation, almost to say, is required. And this is a a tipping point also. If we're not doing this now, like, we are creating the future already. And every decision that we make that we put out there will affect what we will be doing in two to three years. And if we make decisions right now that are not in favor of this transparent, trust building, deliberative democracy, it's it's also naive to expect that it's got suddenly going to be there and be possible in three years. The work starts today. I really believe that.
I lost you for one second.
Okay. No. That would take
Yeah. No. Yeah. No. No. But you were saying, that is naive. And, yeah, I feel like, people are people maybe do not feel that they really have power to change things and, maybe, allowing them to collaborate and to discuss. And, And, also, this is a thing, like, there is a lot of polarization. So most of the times, I just speak with people that think like me, and you speak with people that think like so we don't speak together. We don't we do not empathize. We start hating each other. And, and so that that's why I think that tools like this, could really help.
But No. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. I think this is also why conversation is so crucial. When you're talking face to face to another person, there is a moment when, and also what you see in in the projects that we're doing, you are still trying to figure out what your future is together. And highly probable, you're both going to be in it. Like, there's extreme situations, but but let's focus on the on the day to day for for, or for for, let's say, democracies that that that I am personally part of. We're trying to figure out how to live together in a future that includes us both. And in that conversation, you find out that there are shared values that you absolutely hold. It's not that we want such radically different things. We both want our kids to be safe, to have good education, to get opportunities, and this is something that can bridge differences. But this is also why the conversation is so important because as long as you're behind the screen as an individual, making individual contributions saying like, well, I find this or I want this or I see this. The the way of interacting with one another is just giving back and forth statements. It doesn't allow for this empathy, for the depth, for really creating understanding also why is this so important. Where did it come from? And we need that. Because otherwise, we cannot empathize, we cannot understand, and we can never find something that we can actually both align behind.
And with the experiments that you have done with, the membrane, like, in, with echo, which kind of dialogue were, like, which which kind of assembly dialogue, were tried? Like, if you have some use case about
So the the one I am personally most excited about, is the one that we did earlier this year in Northern Ireland. He went to, Derry, London, Derry, where also for the first time, they brought both the protestants and the Catholics into the same citizen panel to discuss about a shared future. And, of course, there are cultural nuances that I might not have picked up as somebody also being on the outside, but this is exactly what you saw and also the organization that did this cooperation Ireland, helped people so prepare by doing, training on how to express emotions, how to deal when when you get triggered, which was, I think, really important as well because it's not a given that everybody knows how to handle these emotions. But But then also in the session, what was really beautiful to see is that introducing the technology, most people were kind of like, okay. Interesting. Nobody was against it, because there was also this element of like, okay. At least if the tech writes it down, nobody is filtering it. So it's a lot more difficult to put an, note taker there because are they protestant? Are they Catholic? Will they filter my views? Will they write it down the right way? This was much more contentious than just having AI, which was already interesting. But then also seeing that, because we would give them feedback so quickly and show them, okay, these are the the ideas that you came up with. These are the values that you shared. Is this correct? Are you missing anything? It made people realize that also their stories are really shaping the outcomes really directly. They're influencing the direction of the summaries, and it also makes those moments of vulnerable sharing a lot easier because you know word for word you're being heard and it's actually having an impact on the outcome. And so people were more willing to share knowing that it was being heard first by AI, but then also, of course, by the rest of the people around the table. And it created a very, open and and vulnerable, so in that sense, space for people to share, which was, I think, partially the training, but also partially of actually using AI in a way that allowed them to see what they were co creating and how important it is to have a voice in that. And the more you share, the more you can help build something up. So that was that was really powerful to to to witness that. So I was running the data analysis, like, alongside tears in my eyes. Just so such such so much emotion, especially with everything that's happening in the world right now. To see this, to know that that's possible, to for people to find each other. And then, you know, after three days, for them to feel like we have some really solid recommendations that we as a group, and suddenly it's a we support, like, yeah, goosebumps. Like, that's that's really powerful. And,
and the other kind of experiments, like this one
that's I mean, this one is the most interesting one because it had this political tension. I think a lot of the other ones are, here in the here in The Netherlands, which, are, for example, around mobility. And there you also see that, it's just really important for people to see really quickly, like, we've been talking about this together, to have that transparency. And, also, AI is, in that sense, allowed to not be perfect because nobody is to blame, and nobody is necessarily manipulating it. So you get also your first version, and that's kind of how how we also also pitch it. Don't expect the outcomes to be the perfect outcomes. See them as a good first draft that is then up to the people to edit to make sure that you get that perfect outcome that is actually verified by the group. And this is something that just that is really powerful in the citizen assemblies, but also by having so much data. So the the projects in, Dembuls, that is, there was a whole trajectory, and we've supported it throughout. And because you're iteratively learning from this data and bringing it together and having it influence the next, session, the next topics, you always see this building up, and people actually get this sense of, like, hey. This is going somewhere. I recognize this. These are, insights that are really formulated in our words because, basically, what Denbry is also doing, it's helping you structure unstructured datasets that are very energized, very dynamic, but really hard to grasp. And AI is actually really good at them showing, like, hey. These are some of the ideas that are there. Also, without losing the small ideas that are appearing on the edge, keeping the nuances, and then it comes also to but but, yes, that also brings down the quality of the people doing the analysis with the tool. And what I really love about that is that it also brings back this realization of the importance of asking the right questions. I think in the age of AI, you can get an answer to anything. Like, whatever you come up with, even if it's three words that aren't really a question, somehow you get an answer. But to get a good answer and to get an answer that is nuanced and that makes you aware of what gaps are there and what what are the minority voices that are represented, which ones are not represented. AI can help you determine that as well, and that just takes being aware and learning how to ask these questions, which is also something we do alongside of developing the software, also training people to use the software in the way that we actually believe it makes most impact.
Yeah. Also, something I'm very excited, about is identifying problems because sometimes people think, that, I don't know, they are stressed because, I don't know, because of of their colleagues at work. But in reality, maybe it's because the what they're working on, and, maybe it's very alienating. May very frustrating. Or, also, another thing's, collectivization of problems. So, like, I don't know. Maybe I fight with my brother every day, and I think that, the fault is because my brother is, stupid or whatever. But maybe if I discover that all the other people are fighting with their own brother or sisters, that problem is not an individual problem anymore. It's a social problem and has to be addressed as a social problem.
I I think it it can really provide a perspective. You know? Like, if it is the right answer, it is something different, then that's really depending on what's actually happening, and AI doesn't know everything. So it always needs to be verified by the people that are in the community. And but then it it comes back by helping you ask these questions. Like, hey. Maybe this is something you can ask, or have you considered asking this question to this particular group? You know? Ask all these brothers and sisters, like, what is happening? How come you're in a fight with your younger siblings all the time? Like, maybe there's a pattern up there happening. Maybe it has to do with the current work call. Like, it could be so many different things, but staying curious, staying critical, these are also skills that as people working with AI, we need to be even more sharp on.
Absolutely. Yeah. What I was thinking is about patterns that, can emerge, as you were saying, between, protestant and Catholics. Maybe at a certain time you see that, I mean, I think that part of empathy is like, seeing that, I mean, the other person is like us. I mean, there are some patterns. I mean, we suffer, we enjoy, and all these kind of things. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And and, ultimately, we all want our kids to live good lives. I think that's also a a really big one. Realizing that what are what are we leaving for them behind, and what do we do to help in that? And this is something that, can be answered in many different ways, of course. But in that room, I think once you allow people to also do that, it it it suddenly puts things into perspective again. And sometimes when things are really hard and things are really rough, it gets really difficult to dream. You feel misunderstood, and everything from the day to day clouds clouds your dreams, until the point that some people might really lose hope, lose the ability to dream. And that's also why these moments can be really important to actually help people to to get space to do that again. On the one hand, also share why they couldn't, you know, share the the the struggles and the hardship and the pain that they have experienced. But from there, you can build, and that is also the cycle I think that that you need to go through. There needs to be a place where you can air this pain and this experience, but in a way that you can build with it, in a way that it can actually lead to something that has hope.
I was wondering, are you in contact with any cyber feminist, collective?
No, actually. I'm not. But now that you bring that up, that could be interesting.
Yeah. I think it will be quite interesting, Discussing about, be because, you see, at the end, these, tools like the membrane or other kind of tools, I mean, they are for this, to to talk about problems about life, to to think about, how to change society and, how to find the new ways to take decisions maybe in a less violent way.
That would be that would be nice. That would be really, great. But but, yes, like, jokes aside, I I do think it's about realizing that you can, build together and that there are things if you share that, that can really get attention. But also to find that connection, like, hey. Oh, okay. We we actually both care about this. And especially on a small scale, on a community level, it can really help self organization as well, like, understanding what are the things we care about as a group. Oh, it's these things. Okay. Then we make an agenda for that. We're going to apply for subsidies or whatever it is that you do afterwards. But it can really help people come together, and and make them take responsibility for the things that they know their community cares about and build together, towards that future that that they dream of.
Yeah. Coming together, for me, this is something, I really think a lot about these things when two or more people come together to do something. And, I think it's a sort of, I would say intersection of space and time, because people can be sometimes they are in the same space, but they are not in the same time. Like, I don't know if I ask you, do you want to open a restaurant? You say no because I'm working on membrane. But it could be that, I don't know, in ten years, you want to open a restaurant and you met someone that want to open a restaurant. And in that case, you are in the same space and in the same time. And, and this could be also that you want to, open a restaurant and there is someone else in another town that wants to open a restaurant, but you'll never meet. So same time, but different space. And then when the space and time are connected, that creates a center of power so people can actually act and do something.
That's where the magic happens. Right?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. I, yeah, these are really special moments. I I I agree. I think when I was younger, I would also feel this, like like and it wasn't even about doing things yet, but it was, for example, going to the theater. Suddenly, you're in a space with a 100 people, and they come from all kinds of places. They live all kinds of lives, and they go back to it after the show is over. But in that moment, you're all watching it together. And when I was young, I found this, like, a very overwhelming but very emotional experience to be like, I am experiencing this together with hundreds of other peoples, and we're all in this moment together. And I don't even know them, but this is our experience. And I I don't know. I was maybe, like, eight. But there is energy that that happens when people come together to to share something, to to do something, whether it's watching a play or to dream of futures, for for our society. They're slightly different, obviously, in in intensity maybe, but it already starts with the small things. And just coming together and just sharing something can do so much for people. Because in the end, we also we we we need each other. I really think we do.
And, what kind of user would you like to do with this software? Like, I mean, which kind of assembly or topics you think that will be important to discuss?
That's a that's a tough question. I think the the the topics that this might be a very politically correct answer. But as a community, if you want to have a difficult discussion to actually have the discussion rather than trying to figure it out behind a closed door, these are the most interesting. Like, have the hard talk. Hard talks are so important. And to have that together, to also actually work through it together, these these are really special. And whether that is on AI policy, like, something that's happening right now, I think Europe, we really need to figure out how we're going to do this. We're talking about EU sovereignty. We want to be more independent and not just reliant on the big tech giants, across the ocean. Okay. Great that we want this. We're talking about it a bunch, but what are the aligned actions that come from it? And this is also something where Dembrain can really help figure out where are we aligned, where are we not aligned, what are concrete actions we can take. Because also, like, the political space is is at least behind doors, very, very shaped by talking, talking, talking, talking, talking with lots of people. And some some some questions are urgent. So also the urgent topics that need action tomorrow, that can't wait another two months. We need to do that. Any topic right now that has crisis in it, that is not actually a crisis because we saw it coming. So right now, it's just a problem, but we don't call it the housing problem. We call it the housing crisis. Even though crises are something that happens to you, like, COVID happened. That was a crisis. Housing is is not a crisis. This is a consequence of the decisions we've been making, So we need now to take different actions. Okay. Let's talk about it. And this is really where I feel very passionate about okay. What are the things we actually need to take action on where we can't afford to talk another half year, whole year, two years? Like, let's make sure that we do things as well and get aligned on that.
Absolutely. Also, something that I think would be very interesting maybe is, to talk about how, people in civic tech, could collaborate.
Yes. Because
because I saw that, sometimes, there are awesome projects, but people are struggling because maybe they are there is just one founder or maybe two founders, and they cannot do everything by themselves. And so maybe their project died, but it's really a pity because, the intention is to create, like, a a tool that can, help other people. And, but, unfortunately, there there are not a lot of fundings often.
No. No. Definitely. It's a struggle. I mean, I think for a lot of civic tech companies right now, also because with what is happening, again, on the geopolitical scale, it's it's just really hard. We see budgets being cut everywhere, and this is hard for the small players, like like like we are, you know, as well as to the people that have been in the space for for ten, fifteen years. And so I think this is also an element of interoperability where if at least within Europe, but but maybe in the civic space worldwide, if our mission is to actually do this, can we let go of the pure, market domination aspect and figure out a way for us as a group to actually stand this test of time, help each other out, and build that future because the mission comes first. And that means not going bankrupt, but there's a lot of space between not going bankrupt and being a market leader. We should be able to get creative in that, I think. And personally, and maybe also a little bit speaking as vice president of Okta, this is a conversation I would love to have, for for this domain.
Absolutely. Also because, actually forgot what I want to say, but but it was important and related to this.
Oh, you can always do a deep dive in the part two of the podcast.
Oh, yeah. If you have to go, I can
Well, I still have a bit of time, but,
no. No. But, I I haven't. I will write you. But, yeah, if you have another message for the people in the civic tech space that are exploring new possibilities?
I think, practice what you preach. Like, live the mission. Don't just sell it. And that also means help each other. Work community as well. Find one another and really make this happen, as a team. And I really hope that that is something that we can, bring to the front and to be bold in that and to be courageous with that as well. Because I understand this is not a traditional practice of going about building your business. Mhmm. And yet, we've also seen how the economic dynamics have worked in the past, I don't think the best one ends up on top. The one with the most money does. And in this field, there are so many good solutions, so let's find a way to work together and help each other out on all the levels of the interoperability, spectrum.
Yeah. I totally agree. And, you made me think about what I forgot before is that Perfect. I have the impression that, now is also with, thanks to AI. Software is not as important as it was before. I mean, now coding, it's easier. You can also wipe coding and so on. And, the most important things is not, just the interoperability between softwares, but as you said also, interoperability between people. So I think that the ideas and the or the other, yeah, ideas and collaboration is what we really need, right now.
I think so too. I think so too. And we need people that have the expertise, that have studied it, that have lived it, that, because this is also, like, with AI, you know, sure, anybody coding becomes easier. But what I know from our lead, our tech lead, he works with AI when he codes, definitely. But the way it works is that he has the knowledge. He has the expertise. So he knows what will and won't work, and he knows how to ask the right questions. And this brings me back to keep asking the right questions, stay critical, stay curious, and be bold, and let's do this together.
So I totally agree. So and thank you a lot for this,
Yes. Pleasure. Thank you so much for for having me and letting me, do my do my energized outreach, thing. And share share the story, just not just about them, but I think for for the hope of civic tech.
So thank you again.
