19 A Chat With Canadian Digital Services CEO Aaron Snow
We welcome [Aaron Snow](https://twitter.com/aaronsnow), Chief Executive Officer of the Canadian Digital Service [Canadian Digital Service](https://digital.canada.ca/work-with-us/). We'll learn from his experiences leading civic tech organizations in two different countries.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Code for Canada](https://codefor.ca/)<br>- [C4C and CDS partnership](https://digital.canada.ca/2018/04/19/our-partnership-with-code-for-canada/)<br>- [18F](https://18f.gsa.gov/) <br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Have you always wondered what it's like to lead a digital services organization? Well, this might be the episode for you. This week, we're joined by Aaron Snow, the chief executive officer of the Canadian Digital Service. We'll talk a bit about what civic tech is like up there north of the border, as well as have a wide ranging conversation about leadership, best practices, and more. Aaron, thank you so much for joining us on Civic Tech Chat today. Could you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a bit about what you do?
Sure. My name is Aaron Snow. I'm currently the head of the Canadian digital service, which was just started a little over a year ago here north of the border, in the model of, and taking learnings from The UK's government digital service from AT and f and the US digital service and others around the world. Before that, I, helped start and, and then ran for a while, eighteen f in The US. I was one of a handful of presidential innovation fellows who helped get that off the ground along with some outstanding civil servants at the GSA, where AT and S sit. For that, I was, in the private sector. I was a lawyer for a while. I apologize in advance. Yeah. So
Yeah. From that, it seems pretty clear you've spent a pretty significant chunk of your career in, like, that that civic tech space, that, space of trying to use technology for good. Could you tell us a little bit about your personal why? You know, like, why you get out of bed in the morning and do what you do and, how that drives you each day?
I got interested in, let's say, policy, early on probably in high school, and I was also very interested in computer programming in high school. And my career sort of meandered between those two things a bit. In college, I studied computer science and and went on for a while in the private sector as a programmer and as a program manager. And I've always enjoyed thinking about systems problems. At the same time, while I was doing all that, I was looking for ways to, you know, to have real impact, on people's lives. And, at a certain point, I got frustrated, and this was, more years ago than civic tech has been, in the popular vocabulary. And at the time, the civic tech movement, if it existed, I didn't know about it. It was certainly smaller and, lower profile, if at all. And, I decided at that point that I I might be able to have more, of a chance to help people and make lives better, with a lottery. These are sort of twin interests that have kept bouncing me back and forth. I enjoyed the private practice of law so much that I returned to technology, after working on a political campaign. And, and that was the beginning of seeing that there was a way to to, help people with combination of backgrounds.
As a follow-up to that, that's kind of it's not often you find someone with a combination background of, you know, computer science and law like that. How have those kind of two skill sets, kind of melded together to to help you, I guess, now as you kinda go into your current endeavors?
It's interesting because, you know, I don't do a lot of programming or a lot of, legal analysis anymore. The background and understanding where's you know, where those worlds sit, how they're similar, where they collide has been very helpful. Working in government, was the first time since I got my law degree that, upon telling a roomful of folks that I was a lawyer, I would get positive reactions rather than recoils. And that was put I I think that the law degree, gives folks a sense of confidence in my in my respect for the law and for rules and for process, and my understanding that things are not always as simple as they look. The, you know, the the ins and outs of the law have not had a particular, you know, big dent on on the work that I do, obviously. And and in almost every situation when we're talking about the law, I should, you know, I should preface conversations by saying I'm not really a lawyer anymore. I think the thing that I take from both programming and software background and from time spent in the law is the importance of translating between people who speak different languages. And I don't mean the actual languages that folks speak, be it English, French, or whatever else. I mean, the way that people perceive their world and the words they use to talk about them. Words and law have very precise meanings, often very weighted freighted meanings. The same is true in, the software world, And the words we use in one world can sound very different, and especially when when they're not understood, it can sound scary or frustrating, coming from a different worldview. And I think that one of the things that organize that that civ tech organizations in generally run into over and over and are continually, working to be good at is doing that translation, doing the translation between what how the user perceives government and how government perceives the user, between, how someone in the IT department sees their job in their world and how someone in service delivery, when that's not the same department, sees their world and how they see each other and how politicians see bureaucrats and how, the private sector sees the public sector and vice versa. These are all understanding mappings that we need to be very good at. You know, we like to joke that the hard part of, civic tech isn't the tech. It's the other bit. And I think that's very true. It's the human parts, that matter, that that are that are the hardest and that we work hard. And so bringing multiple backgrounds to of any sort, I mean, in my case, they're law and, software, but, they could be any other background. You know, being sort of multilingual in that sense, very useful.
You've you've seen, quite a bit of the timeline, for the civic technology movement. I'd be curious to get your perspective on the current state of it versus, how it was when you first started. Could you kind of compare, those things for us a bit?
Sure. I I came in I didn't come in at the beginning by any means and are lots of folks, you know, who've been doing a lot of great work for many, many years before I got a chance to to, enter that world in 2013 as a fellow. My sense is that that this world is now more mature, more defined, certainly getting, larger and wider in scope. It's spreading. I think the fact that that it has contributed positively is, unmistakable and is, you know, is cause for its, growth. You know, it it goes through growing pains too. Up here in Canada, Canadian Digital Service is just over a year old. The Ontario Digital Service is, has not been around much longer than that, and others are emerging in the provinces and in cities. Canada just named its first minister for digital government ever. The, you know, folks who who have gone abroad for work are are coming home to Canada and and, you know, and be and able to do this kind of work now here. We have code for Canada, emerged last year about the same same time that CDS got started. That's an exciting development up here, a mirror of sorts, of the Code for America program that you know well. Civic tech groups are popping up in all the big cities and some of the small ones across the country here. So yeah. I mean, it it it it it, it goes through these growth spurts at different moments in different countries, I suppose, but it's it's pretty exciting to watch.
No doubt. It it definitely sounds like there's a a considerable amount of exciting activity, going on there, north of the border as as you're kinda building that out, and that certainly reflects well upon the movement as a whole.
One thing that the civic tech movement is better and getting better at is finding its its integration point with the rest of government and the civic space. I think that the you know, I think that it's especially initially in in some places, there's a there's a a feeling of perception, sometimes cultivated, sometimes by accident, of sort of the other coming in and being different and separate from the the rest of the public service and civil service. And I think that the civ tech movement is is getting significantly more aware of, you know, how to be a part of a greater whole. And and I think the whole is becoming more accepting of folks who come in, you know, with a set of of, you know, what we'll call broadly and probably overgeneralizing, digital skills, and the and how they can help. So, that to me is a a really happy, if slow moving development.
What do you think, I guess, has changed as far as maybe, like, behaviors in the movement that have made that that integration bit more more viable, I guess, more recently? Is is there anything that sticks out to you?
Yeah. I mean, one one is one is getting over the initial sort of culture shock of people with different points of view and different skill sets coming together. You know, when when when that first happened, you know, there's probably a little bit of, like, learning about each other and, and maybe some wariness, certainly, especially especially when, you know, some sort of hero motif gets overplayed and people feel, slighted and disregarded and that sort of thing. I I I think that I think I think so part of it is just that. Part of it is just time, and and part of it is that it's, you know, it's helping. The fact that that folks are able to come together, integrate into, like, working teams together, and achieve results together that maybe they they might not have been able to get to without each other. Ideally, that's the beginning and end of the story. It's working, and, therefore, people are, you know, getting more comfortable with it.
Related to that, something that's come up a a couple of times as far as in in in episodes here is this idea of kind of running into rigidity or or risk aversion in in that relationship. Is is that something that you yourself have had to bump into? And if so, like, how have you, I guess, navigated and maneuvered that to try to better that relationship and and still kinda move the ball forward?
Sure. It has been rigid rigidity and I'll say maybe change aversion, maybe risk aversion on on all sides. And and I think that, you know, it's variable. Right? It it's I think broadly across across the civil service, it's getting better. As with most things, it's the unknown that that causes folks to become rigid, risk averse, uncomfortable, suspicious. And the more familiar everyone gets with with each other's motives, with being able to help each other, the better things go. Listening is important. Making sure that folks know that nobody's here to nobody's here to wag a finger or to write a report saying all the things you're doing wrong. Nobody's trying to, you know, use any anybody else's work as a as a before and after sort of, you know, bad story, good story that that everyone's here to for the same reason, which is to provide their service to the public and to make government work as well as we can make it work and at a level that people expect, you know, per mister Lewis Moore's definition of digital. You know, it's it's a set of expectations in the modern world, and and to the extent that we're all trying to help government meet those expectations because we believe that government can and should work and can and should help people, the the rigidity and risk aversion start to fall away. You know, the the comfort level with people and culture is one thing. The the comfort level with practice is is is, you know, wrapped up in that as well. And I think there's there's a lot of moments across a lot of problem spaces. There's there's a moment when you realize that the risk of doing the same thing over and over exceeds the risk of trying something different. And I think that the the set of sort of practices that the SIP tech movement, you know, brings to the table is a set of fairly low risk, low cost, high proof level practices that people, once they try, get pretty comfortable with pretty fast and become, evangelist for as long as they are get as long as they feel like they have the space and the air cover to do so. So, yeah, there's there's a, you know, part of getting past the barriers, is is also, you know, support at the executive level and at the political level, and and enjoy an extraordinary level of that at the moment here in Canada.
Now I I I think you're keen to mention that, you know, another part of that relationship does involve the the political or elected leaders that then, you know, obviously influence policy. Organizations both in in The US and Canada likely will have to weather transitions of ruling party. In fact, at, you know, eighteen f and USDS, United States Digital Service, have all kind of had to do that somewhat recently with the last cycle, but have still managed to survive and and thrive. And and I imagine the Canadian Digital Service, at some point in the future, will have to go through a a similar transition. What in your view allows these innovation teams, these organizations to survive despite the changes in political wins? I mean, to me,
I think it's a pretty easy story, honestly. I mean, government doing the things it does well is nonpartisan. Spending less to get better service is nonpartisan. Putting users first is nonpartisan. You know, folks can disagree reasonably or unreasonably about what government should or should not do, but the things that government is directed to do, it should do well. And it should get better at, and it should meet people's expectations in a digital world. And I don't think there's anybody on any part of any political spectrum who disagrees with that fundamental. And I think that's why AT and F and USDS have had the resilience they've had. And it's not to say that there aren't bumps, but I honestly, I think the bumps are more about change than about political direction. You know, I think I think when all these organizations hit bumps, like, you know, often it is simply about change in leadership and folks, you know, getting comfortable with with different leadership styles, and, different leaders have different different levels of, you know, interest, awareness, investment, risk appetite for the for programs like these. I don't think that's really about political change so much as it is about executive change.
That that that certainly makes a lot of sense. I would imagine that anytime you go through a significant change at the top that there is gonna be some level of adjustment, which I I imagine you've you've experienced yourself. But I I think what I'm hearing from you, though, is that, you would expect these organizations of this type to, I guess, continue their their longevity. Am I hearing you correct?
Yeah. I mean, I I don't see any evidence to suggest otherwise. I mean, you know, GDS has changed, evolved, but it lives and thrives. AT and f and USDS are both, you know, all I've been kicking and doing incredibly important, incredibly, meaningful work, in The US. You know, presidential innovation fellows program, you know, recruiting the next class. And there's lots of work to do, and I don't I don't see the appetite for getting that work done lessening.
And speaking of of the executive, you're, of course, the the CEO of the Canadian Digital Service. Given that the program is is still pretty young, I I believe it launched July, if if if I have that right. I would imagine that in your role, you're rather uniquely positioned to define a lot of precedents for culture, best practices, institutional norms. What sort of baselines have you sought to create so far as as you've gone forward?
So the team has talked together, a fair amount about, what we're trying to accomplish and what we value. We've talked publicly about it. Some will talk more about it. Fundamentally, as far as, like, the workings of the team here, the the baseline stuff is the baseline stuff I think you'd expect, that that we're a safe space, and a risk observer. When we work with partner departments and offices, and with each other, we engage with each other and listen. We engage our partners and and and users and listen to them and share experiences. Every engagement begins with user research. Every product is responsive and accessible. Every team works in the open. Iteration, and short work sprints are the the norm. We strive for focus, and we don't try to do, 25 things at once. That's that's a that's a problem that can get out of hand in government, especially where, like, sort of the demand for this kind of work is very high. And so we we we try to focus on, you know, doing a few things very well and not try to, give a little of ourselves to everyone all the time. Place premium on, metrics and accountability, and holding each other accountable as a team to make sure that we're making the progress that we need to make, you know, meeting the expectations of, the the stakeholders who have, you know, willed us into existence and given us the funds to do what we do and our and our accountability to the public that we're here to serve.
When when the Canadian Digital Service was founded, it was intentionally placed within the the treasury board of the Canadian government. Can you speak to how its placement there, specifically in the government, impacts you and and, in your work?
Sure. Well, so so there's some different pieces to that. One is that the treasury board secretariat is, sort of a centrally a central department here, and it has line of sight across things that happen all over government, which is very beneficial for what what we're trying to accomplish. The the other parts of TBS, are responsible for government wide IT policy. That's the office of the CIO where we have a great supportive dynamic partner in Alex Denay. The, the chief human resource officer for the government of Canada is also here at TBS, and, Nancy just got the job. So we won't put too much pressure on her right away, but we think there's some exciting things that we can do working with her to improve the the state of workforce readiness to the digital world and being, you know, being good at being a modern digitally oriented employer. I would be remiss if I didn't say well, so a couple other points. One one, the fact that we as a delivery team sit by side by side with folks who developed and and assess policy is a fantastic feedback loop, that's to build right into our being side by side in the same department. And it's also why we embed members of our own little policy teams in our product teams so that, you know, we can bring back a lot of on the ground experience and insight into how policies are playing out in the actual delivery of digital services, and then we can bring that back to, to the office of CIO and and and whoever else, across government to to improve how policy empowers, and reduce the burden on folks who are doing this kind of delivery. I was about to say before, I I would be deeply remiss if I didn't know that the minister who is responsible for the treasury board, the the president of the treasury board is also the minister of digital government and has made abundantly clear how deeply he believes in what we're trying to do here, and has been incredibly supportive. You can go watch him give a TEDx talk, where he speaks, you know, knowledgeably about working with users and working in the open and and remaining, you know, well, and starting products, you know, lean and agile. He's he's been, a champion for us. And we have a minister who is absolutely invested in this and sees, you know, the direct link between, you know, digitizing government and the health of the bureaucracy and the health of the democracy to the secretary who have been likewise amazingly supportive of all that we do, to, you know, to the secretary's office, the associate secretary, Alex in the CIO's office, all the way across. You know, really, it it I would be hard pressed to describe a better setup for us trying to accomplish what we're trying to accomplish here.
Yeah. I I don't think I could, come up with a with a better setup myself even if I had the time just, like, sit here and and try to design it, to be honest. I mean, to have such high level policymakers in your corner, I I imagine, is is incredibly helpful in what you're trying to do.
Very. And we are grateful.
Now, another thing you you mentioned, before when we were talking about baselines was that idea of, like, trying to maintain focus. And one of the things in my research I I noticed that seemed unique about the CDS is that instead of it being kind of like a mandate where you're going out and and saying, like, let's work on these projects, it seems that what instead you do is you provide service based on, like, requests for assistance, if if I have that right. And I believe I saw in a recent piece that your team at was, like, roughly 60 during its first year, but was presented with a 140 different requests. How as an organization do you go about sifting through that mountain of request and then choosing what to support?
Yeah. So we have had, a large number of folks come and talk to us at various levels of interest and, you know, some in some directly in the form of you know, many in directly in the form of request, others more exploratory. But, yeah, you know, it it it is entirely accurate to say there's a lot of appetite for for this, and a lot of interest in learning more about this. And, yeah, the team the team actually you know, it it was as high as 60, including, students who were here over the summer. We're actually you know, we've dipped a little down from that high, but it wasn't 60 for most of the year. It it it got it grew to that. It's still a pretty small team. And and and so, yeah, we do, you know, we do have sort of a set of evaluation and selection criteria that we apply to figure out which projects to take on and when. And the, you know, the criteria include reach, sort of, you know, volume and impact, how much how much good for all these big gains can we do with the work, whether that you know, to the extent that it's helping people, since it's being able to, you know, avoid costs and reallocate money more effectively, whether it's, you know, whether it's, practice change and sort of embedding digital practices and culture in departments that are looking to change in that direction. You know, all of that is part of sort of the reach conversation. We talk about readiness. You know, they're they're it's early on, especially in an organization like this. You need to look for places where where you see success at the end of the tunnel, potentially. Not to say that we, you know, avoid hard power by by no means, but, but we also wanna make sure that that we see, you know, the the sort of fundamentals that we need to see in a department in terms of being able to wrangle the, folks from the various offices within the department that that will need to be part of an integrated project and and that they and that they're excited about doing this stuff. And then, and then we also look for, you know, the extent to which the work we do, might be reusable and replicable. So, you know, these these are all parts of the equation. We also look, you know, you know, obviously, at so is this a when people come to us asking for a product, is this a thing to build or a thing to buy? Is it, you know, is is there something that can be reused? So so there there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle.
Now, switching gears a little bit, you had mentioned kinda way at the beginning of our interview here, a shout out to, Code for Canada. Now in in April, there was a, blog post actually on the the CDS website discussing a partnership between you folks in that organization. From what I gather, it was, it's a fellowship program that brings together teams of three, including a developer, a UX designer, and a product manager. Could you talk a little bit about that program and and how you use it to attract, talent to CS for projects like the Veterans Affairs Canada partnership that that post talks
about? Sure. So, so we we partner with Search for Canada in its first year, along with the Ontario Digital Service. We were the first two clients, and they're now working, with some other departments across the federal government of Canada, which is exciting. And and and we, you know, we could not be more delighted with how that partnership turned out. The COVID Canada fellows that we got, assigned were deployed to, like you said, Veterans Affairs Canada, and that has borne, incredibly productive fruit, and an ongoing relationship with with Veterans Affairs Canada that we're still, working with them to to help them help veterans. The the pro the program is not unlike the Code for America fellowship. I don't I don't know that the Code for America fellowship ever worked with a several of them in The US other than, of course, getting something coming in, and and taking those learnings from Code for America and applying them in the, presidential innovation fellows program when she took a year to do that. But, yeah, I mean, it it it the model is pretty similar. The code for Canada pitch is is a great pitch. Come solve interesting problems, bring your digital skill set, you know, research and design, product management, development. You know, be integrated in a team with dedicated, knowledgeable, experienced public servants, who want you there. And one of the neat things about the program is that it it sort of builds in that that that team integration. The program, you know, by design, the program creates a multidisciplinary team in a government situation where maybe that multidisciplinary team might not otherwise have taken shape or maybe it would have taken shape differently. And and and that's that's often, you know, one of the initial important hurdles, to to get out of sort of the siloing problems. But, yeah, I mean, our experience with Polk County was terrific, and I'm delighted that, that that they're that they're able to now, you know, spread the wealth to other parts of this and other governments.
Nice. And and you mentioned in there, of course, like, that, the idea that it's a strong pitch, which, of course, you know, kinda relates to the idea of, like, trying to to bring in folks that would respond to that. And the Canadian Digital Service, as I've gathered, has expressed a desire to ensure that folks from a diverse set of backgrounds are encouraged to pursue, you know, leadership roles, technical roles, probably, you know, things in between. What are your thoughts regarding the recruitment process, and are there ways that you think it could be tweaked to kind of achieve that aim better?
We are intent on building a team that reflects the technical excellence and cultural and geographic diversity of Canada. We're excited that, you know, Canadians are coming home from other places to work with us. And all of that into the process, you know, we start with building a team culture where where people from any background feel welcome and wanna work here and excited to work here and feel safe and feel a part of the team. Being remote friendly and opening, you know, you know, being intent on opening, stations across Canada, to access, folks from all over Canada as part of the plan. Look. In a sense, you hire you hire a diverse team by hiring a diverse team, and and and and making you know, and it begins with making sure that you have a team that people from different backgrounds wanna be a part of. And the the the, you know, in a sense, the mission, which is a very, diverse you know, culturally diverse and geographically diverse mission tells itself. So if if we're providing meaningful work that's meaningful across the spectrum of Canadians and and providing a place where people want to be and want to do that work. That's those those to me are the most important keys.
I I think what I what I'm hearing from you is it perhaps there's, like, some combination of a lot of those kind of, baselines you talked about earlier in our conversation of how you create your culture and your space and all that kind of combining that with the mission comes together to create something that allows you to accomplish that, Amy, you said of, you know, you you have a diverse team by hiring a diverse team. Am I hearing you correctly there between those two things? Yep. Absolutely. Oh, and and since we're we're talking about recruiting, let's say there's, you know, someone out there in the the Civic Tech Chat audience who has really liked what you've had to say today about, CDS. Are are you guys typically recruiting for folks? And and if so, how should someone how should someone go about signaling their
interest? My DMs are open. Give us a shout. You can reach us through the through our website. We're always looking for, you know, talent across the spectrum and people who, you know, who are motivated to do this kind of work, who think creatively and demonstrate that they, you know, can accomplish these things. Yeah. Just give us a shout.
On civic check chat, we give the guests an opportunity to have the last word. What concluding thoughts would you like us to take away from this conversation?
That we're hiring and that we have lots of exciting work to do here. Let folks to come join us. It's it's you never know what you're gonna get when you move to a new country and try a new thing. And, the the people here all the way up and down, all the way across public sector, private sector, everybody's been incredibly welcoming and helpful and friendly, and and folks are dedicated to making government service great work and and works great. And I I couldn't be happier to be a part of it.
Aaron, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to to join us on the program. I have no doubt that there is a ton of really interesting nuggets to learn from, from this conversation for our audience, and, I myself really enjoyed our conversation.
So thank you so much. Thank you, Ryan. Me too.
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