32 Civic Tech meets Police Oversight in Austin, TX
We are joined by two folks from the City of Austin, Texas including [Fara Muscadin](https://www.linkedin.com/in/farahmuscadin/), Director of the Office of Police Oversight and [Marni Wilhite](https://www.linkedin.com/in/marniwilhite/) Head of Product, Communications and Technology Management. We'll engage in a conversation about some work they've been doing to improve the way public feedback about the police there occurs.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Email Austin's Office of Design and Delivery](mailto:odd@austintexas.gov)<br>- [Email Austin's Office of Police Oversight](mailto:policeoversight@austintexas.gov)<br>- [Freakonomics Podcast](http://freakonomics.com/archive/)<br>- [The Lab @ DC podcast](https://thelab.dc.gov/)<br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Welcome back for another episode of Civic Tech Chat. This time, we're joined by a couple folks from the city of Austin. But before we hop in there, I do wanna remind you that if you've liked our programming so far, to head on over to your podcast app and give us a five star review. Doing so helps us reach a broader audience, which is always great, and it helps give me that little nudge to continue working on this just a little harder. So back to what we're doing for this episode, we will be joined by two folks. One of them will be Farrah Muscadin, the director of the Office of Police Oversight for the city of Austin, as well as Marnie Wilhite, the head of product communications and technology management for the same. We'll be getting into a conversation about some work they've been doing to improve the public feedback process in regards to the public and the police department there, and how that led to the creation of a pretty interesting forum. So with all that said, let's go ahead and hop right into the discussion. Farrah, Marnie, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to join us here on Civic Tech Chat for what I believe will be a really interesting conversation. To get us started here, could each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about you what you do? Farrah, would you like to get us started?
Sure. My name is Farrah Muskinen. I'm the director of the Office of Police Oversight. It's a new civilian police oversight office that was created November. And I'm primarily responsible for the office that provides oversight of the Austin Police Department. So we are the place where, members of the community come to if they have, had issues with an Austin police officer and also the place to come to if they would like to thank an Austin police officer.
And hi. I'm Marnie Wilhite. I lead the office of design and delivery within the communications and technology management team. We were created just about a year ago, actually, to bring talent from private industry, service designers, developers, user researchers, and content strategists into the public sector to help, transform government services.
And each of you have taken, pretty interesting paths, respectively as far as your careers go. Could you share a little bit about that path and what led to you, coming to this current role at the Oversight office? Marnie, would you like to get us started?
Yeah. Sure. So, I I started in the startup world, software tech startup world, and worked there for about twelve years. And I think the biggest thing for me is I never even considered a job in the public sector. It was never something my parents talked to me about. It was always, you know, go out and have a career in the private sector. And so, actually the reason that I'm here is because of Barack Obama. He did the South by Southwest keynote, I believe four years ago, and he talked about how, there are so many talented people in the private sector that could be giving back, and we really need to think about that. So, it was the first time that that ever occurred to me. And, there was at the time a fellows program that was started by Ben Guin. He came to the city from the federal government, and basically had this thesis that, he would be able to attract people from private industry to come in and do this work. So luck would have it, those roles opened up at the same time as I was kind of trying to figure out how to give back to my community after, not feeling that great about the work that I was producing for social, programs. So, I applied and I ended up coming into the role kind of dipping my toe into the public sector, and I fell in love with working for the city. So I have continued on.
So my path is a little bit well, it's actually a lot random. So I'm relatively new to the city of Austin, to Austin, Texas. I've been here just about three years. I needed a change and I made a personal decision to just literally pack up and move. So I moved to Austin three years ago. I didn't know anybody. I didn't have a job. Not something I would necessarily recommend, but it was it was an interesting journey. So my background is pretty much all government. I've worked in government for seventeen years. I honestly didn't even know that the police monitor's office existed in Austin. I I have much, a legal and political background. And so, I'm someone who believes in the universe, and so I think that the stars aligned. And, I had opportunities to work in the city in small projects. And then that led me to working with the innovation office, and that's where I met Marnie. And then from there, I was asked if I'd be interested in being the interim police monitor. And I was like, okay. This sounds great. I mean, I do have a background in law. I do have a background in policing and, you know, community policing is something that's always been very important to me. And so, yeah, once I said yes, kind of the rest is history. And so I started as the interim police monitor in January 2018, and became permanent in June. And then as we changed the office, I became the director, in October. It's I would say it's a nontraditional path, but it gives somebody the beliefs that everything happens for a reason. And so this work for me is so personally and professionally rewarding. I think it was just not only kind of the stars being aligned, but being kind of the right person at the right time, with the right opportunity.
And within each of your areas of practice, is there a a piece of media, whether it's like a book, podcast, YouTube video, or or something else entirely that's inspired or informed you along the way?
I have always been, I have a love hate relationship with social media. I think it's a blessing and a curse. But I I really enjoy the ability to share information in various platforms. And I think just I don't know if I can point to a specific thing, but I think the fact that we have all those different avenues for information has been important to me. Just particularly when we talk about social justice issues, because, you know, in in my area of policing, I mean, the media has been really important. The the various media outlets and opportunities people have to share information has really gotten some of the things that we really need to discuss to the forefront. And particularly in Austin, it it's part of the reason why I'm here. You know, it's part of the reason why we are continuing this conversation about police oversight. So, again, I don't know if I could point to something specific, but I I look at it, as something that is necessary and needed to really push forward some social justice issues.
For myself, I'd say, one of my favorites, is, Freakonomics. Behavioral science is really important. Behavioral economics is really important to the work that we do. And on that note, a more random set of, podcasts would be, the lab at DC C. Produces a podcast where they interview a lot of behavioral scientists, or scientists in general that have really done a deep dive on a specific topic and how things work. And on that note, the guy that led the lab at D. C, David Yoakum, he's moved on to Brown University to start a new program there, and they're about to start up a new podcast called 30,000 Leagues, which will be along the same vein, you know, exploring these really interesting topics. So I'm excited about hearing how he changes it or how he adjusts it in this new place. But DC Lab, Labrado, the lab at DC still does their, podcasts as well.
One thing I think is interesting about Austin's office of design and delivery is that you folks have a written set of principles on your website. Yeah. I myself am a fan of this sort of behavior. I work for a place that that does the same sort of thing. How do these principles guide your work and the choices you make while going about it?
Well, you know, one thing, we we actually use those principles as part of our hiring criteria. So our interview questions are actually centered around those principles as we, as we identify people that can work in this space the way that we need to. So it's kind of infused into the culture from the beginning from anybody that we bring on to our organization. We're making sure that they, that they can meet those principles. And so, you know, it's really easy at that point, right? And on top of that, we try to build out a governance model within our, within our team to make sure that we continue to explore those. So, you know, things that we put residents first, for instance, being something that is really important to us. So, how we do that equitably is something that we've been able to make sure that everybody understands how to do that. You know, one of the things that I am most keen on when we talk about, how we approach our work is, strong opinions loosely held. And so, that specifically, is important for us to have an open and inviting space. And so, things like having retros at the end of a two week sprint, making sure that there's an open space for everyone to talk about what didn't go well or if they might have had a moment where, things weren't going well. Farrah is nodding because she experienced this when she was part of the team. Yeah.
It took some adjusting. I wasn't used to having retrospectives.
But, yeah, we we try to make sure that, you know, again, it just starts with that hiring process, making sure we're bringing in people that that those values are core to who they are as well.
I think it's about time here that we can go ahead and roll into our main topic and talk about, some of the work y'all have done. To that end, the police oversight advisory working group, was created after an Austin City Council resolution was passed, 03/22/2018. This seems to eventually led to some collaboration between that working group and the office of design and delivery service design lab. Before we dive into the nitty gritty of that work, can you give our listeners the high level of what this relationship sought to accomplish?
So it started a little bit earlier. When I when I started, as the interim police monitor, a lot of what I needed to do when I first got started was just introduce myself because I was new to Austin and introduced myself in the role in the office. And one of the things that I found very interesting, when my in my communications and and just, conversations with members of the community, how there was just a disconnect between what I was hearing that was going on in the community, between residents and the police department, and our numbers. And so it said to me, you know, something's not right. Something is there's there's there's there's a disconnect somewhere. And so one of the things that I learned from working in the innovation office, is that we can't we shouldn't necessarily assume what the problem is. And then also a lot of times we based on that assumption, we develop solutions for that that assumption and then it doesn't necessarily fix the problem. So I didn't wanna assume why people weren't coming forward to file complaints on misconduct. And so that's when we developed a partnership with the ODD team to look into the barriers of the complaint process. And that involved a significant amount of user research and analysis. And so that was really helpful because then what we put into place were things that were based on actual feedback from residents and the research that had been conducted, and we figured out what the actual problem was. And so that work really folded into and evolved with the work of the working group because we were responsible for coming up with what do we want civilian oversight to look like in the city of Austin. And what I talk about is, you know, when it comes to oversight, it's very specific to the city. It's specific to the community, it's con you know, the the politics, the laws, and everything. And so I jokingly but seriously said, whatever we come up with for Austin is gonna have you know, little queso and cilantro in it. Right? It's something very unique to to, to Austin. And that's what that working group provided was figuring out how we get there. And the work that was done from the research team helped inform the working group in making the recommendations of what we needed to change and include in our over oversight structure going forward.
One thing I'll add on to that. So as far as the composition of the working group, there were people from the police department, internal affairs, there were activists, and then grassroots activists. Right? So you you had this spread of people, which is for our work within Office of Design and Delivery. We're trying to say or trying to look at who is not at the table right now, and making sure that we actually bring all of those perspectives together. So it was really great because a lot of times we end up having to assemble that that, advisory group, but they already had done it. And so being able to make sure that we were getting all those perspectives, right, during that interview process. So those grassroots, people, trusted Farrah and were willing to let us do research with them and connect us to other members of the community. Because we talk about this specifically. Right? We're we're talking about, vulnerable community members. And so you do need to make sure that people trust you when you're going and asking these kind of questions, especially as a government entity. So it was pretty, convenient and helped us move much faster that Farrah already had this group of people that were talking about how we needed to do this change.
I think it's really keen that that you mentioned, all of the, like, kind of the research work that it sounds like went in at the beginning as it leads, right to this next question I had. As I believe from the documentation I saw online, from this that one of the, findings that that came up was that improvements could be made to the public feedback process. What were some of, like, the trends or patterns that you saw in that research that were maybe seen as, like, key to kick starting that sort of work?
I mean, I think when I think about the public feedback, I think about I think I think I look at it in two different ways. I look at it from providing a way that people feel confident and safe in coming forward with complaints, And then also being able to close the loop with that feedback. And so one of the things that came out in the research is that people were just scared. People were fearful of coming forward. So it's like, we have to really think about and this is where, you know, I love this conversation that we're having because, you know, would it naturally come to somebody to think about ways of using technology to help address a social issue? Right? And so that's where bringing the two together was so important because one of the ways to do that was developing this this anonymous complaint form that was so simple and straightforward and very intuitive to help at least have one avenue for people that come forward that are afraid of the process, afraid of law enforcement, and just potentially traumatized from the experience. Mhmm. And then on the flip side of that, it what came out in the research is that not only was there a lack of trust with law enforcement, there was a lack of trust of the process in our office. So we had to really figure out how are we going to build trust in members of the community so that they will eat that they will come to us. And part of that was facilitating our communication with them because we found that a lot of people had no idea what happened with their complaint. Phone calls weren't being returned. So that didn't come to light but for the research. And so we were able to really kind of develop solutions on the front end and on the back end on really how to how to deal with that fear that people have with coming forward.
Did you end up finding that there were any, like, ways that seemed to work and, like, helping folks overcome those those sorts of things?
Yeah. So I think that, there are a few things that helped doing that. The simplicity of the form, I think helped doing that because let me explain to you how it was before and how it is now. So before someone who wanted to file a complaint for misconduct had to fill out a complaint form, fill out an affidavit, and have it notarized. That in and of itself is a barrier. So to go from that to being able to fill out a complaint form online that's mobile friendly, you can send it via email, you can us. I mean, you really can send it in any way. I think really helped that because imagine if you are someone who experienced, some sort of police misconduct, how likely are you to do those three things? I mean, it's it's probably very, very unlikely. And that was one of the components that came out in the research is is that, you know, we're we're we want oversight in Austin. We want people to come forward, but, like, it's not realistic to ask someone who may have experienced something negative to fill out this form that was like a job application Mhmm. And get write an affidavit and then get it notarized. I mean, like, I don't even know where you go to get things notarized anymore. I mean, do we really need you know what I'm saying? So even that in and of itself is difficult. And how many times, you know, are you gonna be like, I don't wanna deal with this. I'm moving on. So, it's also recognizing I think what was another thing that that was important that came out of the research is recognizing the level of compassion that needs to be done in this work because it is very difficult for people who've experienced something traumatic to come forward. And then when when that traumatic experience may have involved law enforcement, that is, you know, that that is even more of a reason why you probably wouldn't wouldn't wanna come forward. So, I think that having the ability to fill out an application from the comfort of one's home, from, you know, having different, different avenues to do it. And and it's so intuitive that it makes it seem less daunting to a potential complainant.
Yeah. I'll add on to that. You know, one thing that as Farrah stepped into this role, we realized that a lot of people didn't even realize where this office was. And when they heard about it or have they had heard about it, they assumed it was part of the police department. Right? And so when you're talking about filing a complaint and going straight to the agency where you had a an experience that was less than pleasant. Again, talking about vulnerable communities that aren't gonna necessarily feel safe. They they're gonna fear retaliation. So it was really important that we started to identify that this is a neutral third party, the police oversight office, that they were there to be able to analyze what what needed to be done next. Was there a misstep or, did there need to be some changes and and, you know, how we approach training or things like that. I think another big thing, that's really interesting that came out of this is that, you know, as Farrah is starting to get into community and building these relationships with all of these organizations, you know, big thing that we found is that when we're talking about these vulnerable communities, we need to have a champion that's willing to say, yes, this is a good thing. Someone that they trust. You know, one of the early research that we had was, with some of, the Asian immigration immigrant communities. Actually, the feedback from them was that there are businesses that don't always make a report to the police because their experience in their home country with law enforcement was not positive. So it's not necessarily that they aren't coming forward and telling us these things because of our own police department. It's just that in the past, that has never been, we don't want police or law enforcement involved at all. So again, working with those kind of, people, those advocacy groups that are representative of them, getting their trust to say, like, hey. No. We really do wanna make sure that we're making good decisions as a city was really important, and I think it will continue to be important for us to get good feedback, help us guide our work. Let's say that I've relocated myself to to Austin.
And for whatever reason, I I need to, make use of this process. Could you talk me through, like, what my experience might be like if I engage with this form and kinda went through what the cycle's like?
Yeah. So, you know, we do definitely try try to do a user journey and understand how people are getting there. And the majority of the time, right, people are gonna Google how to find, how to do this kind of complaint. Maybe they will hear again from an advocacy group being the the biggest avenues. And so there's a couple of journeys you could talk about. One being, you know, someone does a search and they find it. We, we're committed to our population and making sure that people have the ability to make these complaints. 25% of Austin nights are, Spanish speakers first of the households. So for instance, we did all of the translations manually to make sure that they made sense, in Spanish. So it's not just, a Google Translate because that's often not correctly translating. And so the big one of the biggest things is immediately we ask you to detail, your experience. Because if you have had, an an experience where you are feeling vulnerable and, you're trying to make a complaint, if we're immediately asking for your name and, you know, all of your identification information, you might take a step back and not actually fill out that form. So we wanna give them the chance to immediately tell us, what happened, and and do that in a free space. We then ask for, identify, you know, identifying locations, that it might have happened at. So this is something that FARA can use data wise, and the police department can use if it's something that is passed on. We, ask for information about them. So one thing that we do, as Farrah mentioned, we allow for anonymous complaints, but if people are willing to tell us information, it means that we can follow-up, and and we can actually get a feedback loop going as far as what happens with the complaint that they submit. Also identification of of demographic information is useful because we wanna know what populations, are giving us feedback, where we might be still missing, feedback from populations.
I'd let Farrah speak to that more than myself. Yeah. So let me just say this. So this is where the research was so important because the research informs kind of how the layout of the complaint form should be. And so it goes so if you think about a job application, right, you generally have to fill out your name and address first. Right? Mhmm. And so we are trying to promote the fact that people can make anonymous complaints to deal with kind of the fear and the ambivalence factor. So if you're trying to do that, you can't ask for name in, you know, your name first. Right? So in in in in my office, really what we need is date, time, location. Those are really the three most important things that we need first. So that's what's asked upfront. So when you go to our website, at the top you're gonna see file a complaint or send a thank you. I mean you can't miss it and you click on one, which one you wanna do and it literally walks you through step by step how to fill out the complaint. And it isn't until you get to the to the towards the end that you can check the box if you want to be kept up to date on it because it assumes you wanna be anonymous. And so if you click the box and say, oh, no, I wanna be kept up to date on this complaint, that's when then you can provide your, your contact information and your name if you want to. But it presume don't. And I like that part of it because it's directly tied to the research that was conducted. And the other part that I really like about it is it is so intuitive. It really guides the person step by step by step. And, short of kind of what a complainant may write in the in the box to, you know, kind of tell me what happened box, this is something that could probably be done in five minutes or less. I mean, you know, we're a fast culture. We we really don't have much patience. And so to be able to get through very quickly, you know, a complaint form, in five minutes or less, I think, says a lot because it would take you more than five minutes to fill out a complaint form, write an affidavit, and get it notarized.
In in in keeping it seems like there's a a bit of a theme there where you've essentially been trying to, like, remove barriers to to to the use of the process. To that end, have you all seen an an increase of of folks trying to use it? And if so, like, are are there any patterns from the data if if if you have that available in your brain in this moment that, maybe that have, like, garnered some results that you thought were interesting?
So I do think that there is an increase in using it. I mean, I don't think Austin is that different from many other cities that the majority of the people here are very mobile savvy and mobile users, and our site is, very much mobile compatible. And so what I've heard, I would say anecdotally, is that we're getting a lot of compliments on the ease and the simplicity of it. We're still assessing the data, but, one thing that I I am I'm kinda finding very interesting is that I think it's reduced the phone calls we're getting. I think people are more are are utilizing the complaint form to contact us than calling us. And I think that that's that's an important tie to technology, that people are, using the form and finding it accessible, and finding it easy to to fill out. We're going to because that's another thing that I like about working with ODD is that it's always about kind of iterating and improving. And so, we launched the the, online form March. I think it was March 27. And so I think we're probably gonna be coming close probably within six months, like, in the September September time frame, really looking at the data and assessing it. And then I'll be working with Marty's team to figure out, okay, what can we make better? What does what does this data tell us, to be able to improve the process? But I would say, generally speaking, that there is increase in the use of the form.
I I gather that, part of your work involved interacting and, I guess, contributing to as well the with the open source system called the United States Forum System, which I believe is a United States Digital Service Repository. Could y'all talk a little bit about, like, what the experience was like interacting with that project? Yeah.
You know, one of the things that, when we talk about the open source movement that is done better in private industry than in public is, re building out reusable components. You know, when we, we want to build something out, we want it to be something that can be utilized by other, government agencies, whether it's, city, county, federal, state, whatever. And so we were looking for people who had already kind of met the accessibility standards that we were keen to have as the city of Austin, committed to have as the city of Austin. And so, of course, US Digital Services is a great organization that already has a lot of applications they've built in the open source community. And, so the form system was a really great one to pick up. It was, they were super helpful. We've actually had tons of conference calls with them to talk through how we can, build out the application. We actually have committed code back to it, so we found things that we could improve or adjust that would help it make, even more reasonable as a as a system. And so, I think it's been great for them as well seeing that we're interacting directly with them, and it's getting reused. And really, that's more of what we need to see in general is, things like the form system that US Digital Services built out. And kind of what we're looking to continue to, do as city of Austin is, help build out those same kind of systems that can be reused by other governments and and and work on that.
Well, it also I mean, I really wanna start a movement of other oversight agencies, because, you know, our experience here in Austin with the fear and accessibility is is unfortunately not unique to Austin. And so it would be you know, I think the long term goal is being able to, share the technology and share, the method methodology behind it with, you know, our sister oversight agencies, to just really help improve the process and increase the access.
I I think that, brings up maybe what, could be an interesting question to explore as well is if let's say if there is someone in this Civic Tech Chat audience that works in an oversight office and they're hearing what you have to say so far and they're like, wow. Like, I I really wanna give this a go. Do you have any advice that you'd give them in, like, trying to push that ball forward?
I would say to, probably develop some technology allies, and partnerships, because that is really going to help. Community involvement is, like, probably number one. And because that really helps us the community support was the momentum really behind this project. They really wanted to see change. They wanted it in a different way, and it it really helped propel this project. So I would say building I don't know if you necessarily need a coalition, but I think community partnerships, tech partnerships, I would start there first. I would start by getting a group of people that have a shared vision for pushing a project like this forward. Yeah. I think that helped us really be, I mean, if you think about it, the, the new office was created in November 2018. Some of the research started, I think, probably of 2018, and then it continued on with the development of this website. But for a government entity to create, you know, a new website with a new form by first quarter the following year is really kind of unheard of. Government doesn't work that fast. Saying and I don't know if we would have accomplished that without the support and the momentum of the community.
And as things have gone so far, what would you say is one thing that you're most proud of within this project? And, what's one thing that you'd like to maybe put intention into around it looking into the future?
I think I'm most proud of the fact that we were able to get this done, and we were able to get it done so quickly. It showed a commitment to improving oversight and the access, to it, to the community, and to all the stakeholders. I think that I mean, this is a really, really big step in the right direction for Austin. And I'm really proud personally and professionally to be a part of that, because I think it recognized that we had some problems. It recognized we needed to find some solutions. And we went, you know, we went the nontraditional route, actually, to find the solutions. Right? The traditional government route is to just, you know, kind of either update the form or put the form as a PDF. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't do that. We we did research. We developed kind of what we thought the the specific question needed to be that needed to be answered and, were really methodical in, coming up with that solution, and we involved community and relevant stakeholders at every point of the process. I think that's personally is something that the city of Austin should be extremely proud of. And the thing that I'm looking forward to, particularly on the oversight side, is, you know, I like to I have these sayings that I say, but like when when people don't know what you're doing, they don't think you're doing anything at all. Right? And so one of the things that we're trying to improve is transparency. And I'm really looking forward to phase two of our website because I really want I'm looking forward to making the information that we can now make available, making it available in a way that's not only accessible, but it's digestible to various audiences. So it's not enough to just plop up, a PDF or plop up, you know, some content on a website. No. We're going through almost the exact same process of being methodical and really thinking about with all this new information that we could provide to the community, data, reports, recommendations, infographics, like what is the best way to do that so that our community feels fully informed about the oversight that we're providing and what the police department you know, what it's doing. And that's our role, and I'm just excited about utilizing developing technologies and the new approaches in technology to make that happen.
My answer definitely goes a lot of what Farrah just talked about. You know, bringing these kind of, of practitioners and the government service designers, user researchers, content strategist, developers, and doing things in an iterative fashion. So, you know, the thing that Farrah talked about is that we're continuing to iterate upon this. The first form that we created is very different than the one we actually had on the website, when we officially launched. So it was a very iterative process. We tried something and we, tested it. We did usability testing and we learned and we altered it based on those things. So I'm super excited about the data we're gonna have, in another year to look at where are people dropping off, where can we continue to have an increase, more of an even bigger increase, and, those feedback, or that feedback from the community. And I'm really proud of that we were able to do this in Iterative, like, because as Farrah said, it's usually not very fast the the way government works. It's a slow moving ship. And we were able to do things that private industry has done really well for a really long time. And so, I think it's been a really great example, specifically for police oversight, but being able to do this on such an important part of the city, working with with Farrah, has helped us demonstrate how we can do that change. So, it's a great way to get other, other civil servants to jump on board of, like, hey, we can do this differently. It's not just the case that we should just do it with police oversight. We need to make sure we're applying this methodology across all of the services that we offer. So I'm definitely proud that we were able to do with FARA and have this example for people to follow.
Something that's come up, a few times in these sort of, like, digital services oriented projects, whether it's from that type of organization or or from, another, is the idea that, having some amount of air cover is oftentimes important. Is that something that came up at all through this project? And if so, like, what what kind of impact did that have?
I think that, you know, the community pretty much demanded a change in oversight. And you mentioned the, the resolution that came from council in March. That really provided the direction of we need more research. We need to look in this deeper. Right? And so I would say that the transformation of oversight had the support of all of city council, because I believe that resolution was passed unanimously. It had the support of the city manager. I believe it had the support of his team, and that really helps propel this forward and put the the resources that, we needed to make this happen. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. Was it important and necessary to get this done? Yes. But I feel like utilizing oversight is the example of not only kind of a new framework of how to do things in terms of agile, utilizing, you know, technology in a different way. I mean, at the end of the day, if you could do this for oversight, you know what I mean? Which is so nuanced and so specific and very political and, you know, it's a touchy topic, you really could do this in any kind of government area. So, I appreciate kind of being the poster child or the office being the poster child or the guinea pig, whatever you wanna talk about it, because I think it shows the potential of what so that backing, that executive cover that the office of police monitoring and the office of police oversight had, to me, translates to the movement of really utilizing technology in the city in a different way. So, to to the point where you you you hopefully, we hopefully won't need that same executive cover going forward because we are such a good example of what that technology can do to improve services and access for residents.
I don't I mean, Farrah was a great partner. Right? We had a director that wanted to bring this kind of change. And so, it it does require, that kind of director level to have a buy into doing things differently. As she mentioned, this is not how government normally works. And so her understanding that this was a different process, that we weren't gonna go the traditional route, you know, was incredibly important to giving us that space. Because a lot of times, government employees, there's a fear we are doing public work. It's all, public information. So, anybody can ask for what, the information about what we're doing. And, you know, there are tons of stories out there that make people scared to do anything different, right? So I think you're kind of hinting at that with the digital, services space within, government entities. So it's definitely it does require that, you know, our, chief information officer, Steven Elkins, also, gives us that air cover of letting us do things differently. Advocates to say, let's try this something new, that was incredibly important. And it honestly, having a director, that that, we have to have that kind of readiness and confirmation from them that they're they're ready to do something different before we can move forward because it can affect the success of our project.
Farrah, Marnie, thank you so much again for taking the time to come on Civic Tech Chat. I think we've had a really illuminating conversation, about the way you've gone about this project, and I think there's gonna be a lot of folks out there that will have, nuggets of wisdom that they can take into their own work or perhaps future work. As is tradition with this program, one of the things we do is give space for our guests to kind of have the last word, to leave us with the concluding thoughts they have as we leave this conversation. So for each of you, what is that?
If people within government are encountering, no's as far as trying to do something different, if they're getting, we've always done it this way, that they really should, look out to other people in the communities, other communities that have done it well. Don't be afraid to reach out to other people. We have connections internationally that we talk to based on the problems that we're encountering or the barriers and challenges that we're trying to overcome. So don't be afraid, of reaching out to, the community, especially in the public sector. Everybody's trying to help each other. Everybody wants everyone else to do, better. And so I would encourage, you know, my fellow career civil servants to, make sure that you're building those relationships. And also, you know, while each city and state and area is unique, a lot of these problems are very similar. When we're talking about, you know, police oversight and being able to file complaints or thank yous, the vulnerabilities and the difficulties there, a lot of those are very similar. So while we do need to make sure that we adjust for each community that is, is trying to address a challenge, a lot of times we can build, off of what has already been done, if we've made sure that we've done the right research upfront.
I think the biggest point that I wanna get across is, you know, that utilizing technology for a social issue. Right? And and that it's not, you know, this shouldn't be a rarity. This should be the rule. Right? And so I think that, you know, I'm a proponent of, you know, the the your partnerships that you wouldn't necessarily assume or think of, like, those are the partnerships you should develop. Right? Mhmm. Well, I'm not quite sure anybody would put police oversight and design and delivery together. But when you do, look what happens. You know what I'm saying? So that's really kind of the point that I would like to leave with, is that because if I stayed in the oversight box, I probably would not have a new online complaint form. I'd probably have maybe a modified paper form, maybe a few less PDFs. But I think that, you know, we live in a day and age where you have to think outside the box. And I think that you have to be open to I mean, even if we failed, it still would have been a success. Right? Because at the very least, we have the research to tell us what our problems were. But fortunately, we had the resources to have the research to tell us what our problems were and the resources to fix it. Right? But even if we didn't have that, we at least had the research to have and to hopefully in the future develop those solutions. So, I like the, you know, I think that in government, people, you know, it's like you can't fail with taxpayer dollars. But I think that it makes more sense to me to have the opportunity to fail and let that lead to efficiencies than to continue to do the things the same way that are already inefficient.
Again, I wanna thank you both. I know if I I thanked you a bunch of times, but one more time, I wanna thank you both for coming on the program and taking the time to give us your thoughts and perspectives. Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah. Absolutely. Looking forward to hearing it. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.
