42 Private and public sector civic tech with Emily Fong
[Leah Bannon](https://twitter.com/leahbannon), [Mohith Rao](https://twitter.com/localtechsupp), and [Ryan Koch](https://twitter.com/ryan_koch)sit down with returning guest [Emily Fong](https://twitter.com/leahbannon)(they appeared on [episode 16](https://civictech.chat/2018/08/coding-it-forward-civic-technology-fellowship)). We'll talk about the work they're doing in the space where finance and civic tech meet, their community organizing efforts, and their product management practice.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Propel](https://www.linkedin.com/company/propel-inc/)<br>- [US Census Bureau](https://www.linkedin.com/company/us-census-bureau/)<br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another edition of Civic Tech Chat, the live show. This is our second time going about this and our second month of doing so. My name is Ryan Cook, contributing here to this fair podcast. And as always, I'm joined by two other contributors starting with
Hi. Mohit Rao, based in Saint Louis, software developer, and, interested citizen.
Hey. I'm Leah Bannon, and I, have worked in Civatech a long time, and I've worked at eighteen f and USDS and, was a code for America brigade captain at one time. So, I am also very excited because we have another person who's worked in a lot of different spaces in civic tech. Today, Emily Fong is here with us. Emily, can you introduce yourself?
Yeah. What's up, Internet? My name is Emily. I work at Propel. This is based in Downtown Brooklyn. So we're a for profit software company, but we have a lot of roots in civic tech, and a lot of crossover still. Subtle plug. We're hiring. I've also, had the opportunity to work in nonprofit civic tech spaces, like with putting it forward, and civic hall based in New York as well. And I worked for a while as a contractor, at the US Institute.
So I the first thing I wanted to talk to you about is actually Propel. I know y'all provide financial tools for low income folks. And so I was wondering if you could just kinda explain a little bit to us about what the company is doing and and also, you you know, what the experience is like for folks who need those, and use those benefits and what it's like for them without those tools. For sure.
Raquel's origin story started, I wanna say, like, five ish years ago. So our CEO had kind of the experience of, like, growing up and kind of being someone with, a low income background and kind of held that throughout his, career as he, you know, graduated from school and got into Silicon Valley, eventually landing at LinkedIn and Facebook. He loves Facebook for kind of a broader sense of purpose and, wanted to find something that was meaningful. And so that eventually kind of the the seed of the idea that became Fresh EBT. Fresh EBT is Propel's core offering. It's a mobile phone app that helps you manage your food stamp benefits if you are a, recipient of those programs. We also have some interfacing with different programs like TANF and WIC. And the reason kind of we found our home in this space is because if you know anyone or have been on these benefits programs yourselves, it's not a great experience, by any means. The way it works is that you get your food stamps benefits on, like, a tiny almost kinda like a debit card. It's called an EBT card. Stands for electronic benefit transfer, and use that card to pay for your groceries at specific EBT retailers. So if you, and the important thing is that you have to have one of those in your neighborhood. So when you go, you have to have the EBT card out. It usually looks pretty distinct from other forms of payment mechanisms. And you often are not able to check your balance on the card, without going through kind of this process of calling a phone number, waiting for it to pick up, entering your information. It's a transaction that takes about a minute, two minutes. For a lot of people who are on food stamp benefits, they're kind of trying to juggle this while being parents, while working, while, you know, kind of running in and out and trying to plan their whole grocery shopping and food experience for an entire month. And kind of the increased visibility of doing that in spaces often leads to a lot of kind of internalized shame or feelings of inadequacy or just kind of an overall not a great experience. It's also just kind of inefficient. So we built Fresh EBT to kind of address that need and try and provide other app opportunities and avenues for folks who are low income to find resources and things like that. Yeah. I mean, I know I've been in the grocery
line before, and at some points in my life worried I wasn't be able to pay for it myself or seeing folks who I knew were using food stamps and, like, unsure if they had enough. And, there wasn't a great way of checking, like, what the actual balance was before trying to check out and it's a really dehumanizing terrible experience to be stuck with people waiting behind you in line and Yeah, I'm curious. Like, have you heard more, kind of different stories about, like, when folks are using your tools, like, different kinds of things that it's, like, saved them from or, help help made things easier for them?
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely, like, kind of the hard, like, financial and monetary numbers. I think a while back, we did a study with Harvard Business School. I think it found that we saved people. We had the ability to help people extend their benefits for two additional days over the course of the government shutdown when there was that long period between, benefits recipients actually getting the benefit before the shutdown and then getting it after. So that was, like, a very special time for our users, and we are able to kind of prove a lot of our value there. I would also say that, like, I'm fortunate kind of in my day to day job to really be able to, like, work with our users and bring them into our process. I think the word that you use dehumanizing is, like, definitely, something that people feel, especially with the societal stigma around being on benefits, or otherwise just needing help. I remember we talked to a, a user who had actually been one of our longer term users who had been on the app since, I think, 2016. He was homeless for a long time, had been kind of in and out of shelters, only recently found transitional housing, was really struggling for a long time. But, like, he told us that, like, having fresh EBT on his phone, on his device, actually created this really important psychological benefit for him that he felt like, you know, the app was getting updated every two days. Like, somebody is out there kind of watching out, you know, making something for me and, you know, making me feel like they cared about me. And so, there's kind of, you know, like, the the data that we can point to, but I also think, in my opinion, at least something equally as important is just making sure that, like, everyone in our society has something that's made for them that, you know, they feel like they can be included in the world of tech.
Yeah. I think I think that's a great point. And, like, I I think I'm glad you also flagged the shutdown thing because I think that, there's always been this kind of debate in civic tech about, You know when a government shutdown happens like how much of the government should we keep running? And and keep going that's important? And I've always leaned on the side of, like, we should shut everything. Like, if you're gonna cut off food stamps for people or WIC benefits for people trying to, like, you know, just literally feed their babies. Like, we should shut everything down. We shut the websites down. Like, nobody else gets government if we're gonna let people fall through the cracks like this. Mhmm. Although, you know, of course, I think we should never shut down government, and then it shouldn't even be on the line. But, you know Yeah. For sure. It's definitely an interesting I actually had not really thought about
that thought experiment, but, yeah, makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Feels unfair.
Another thing I we talked about previously about Propel is that, y'all are a for profit company. Mhmm. So I was curious if you could talk a little bit about how you make your money and how you keep it ethical.
Yes. Yeah. I get this question all the time, and, excuse me, and I'm genuinely so glad that people ask it because it's so easy to kinda just look at your phone and be like, this seems incredibly shitty. It's not. I promise. So the way that we make money is through an ads platform. So we host advertising in the app, but we also pair that with incredibly stringent advertising guidelines. So, like, our basic baseline rule of thumb is that if it doesn't generate, like, actually user value, like, for the people who are using it, we're not gonna put it in the app. I think the important thing to note here is that user value looks really different for low income folks than it does for or ethical user value. It looks different for low income folks than for someone like me who has, like, the opportunity and the privilege to be able to choose to, like, not buy from Amazon. I can go to a local grocery store, not buy from Whole Foods, or not use Uber. And so, like, we try and be thoughtful and really respectful of, like, the kinds of circumstances that somebody might find themselves in where a, like, discounted EBT Prime benefit is, Amazon Prime benefit is actually really, really useful. That is something in particular that we found, like, for example, folks who are on disability, as well. Like, we tend to have a lot of crossover between different benefit programs. They really find it difficult to go and use their EBT benefits because they, you know, need to find transportation. There's no public transportation in a lot of places. So, like, Amazon running a pilot or you can get groceries delivered with your EBT and pay for it with EBT, is a huge game changer for people. And so, like, those are the kind of considerations that we weigh when we go and embark on a partnership. We also have a lot of content running in the app from nonprofits, from local governments to kind of support programs at that level as well. On the, continuing on that, like, ethics handling thread,
I will be curious to hear a bit about how your organization makes decisions regarding, like, how its interaction with users go because, you know, it being a benefit program like this, there's going to be an inherent kind of power dynamic thing going on. Could you talk a little bit about how that how that works and maybe, like, what you see, like your role personally as in trying to, like, influence that the right way?
Mhmm. Yeah. Totally. So I'll start with the first part of it, which is, the part about how we incorporate, users into our process here. I would say that the users themselves are a really, really big part of how we continue to define and build Propel. We've hired users directly to do things like translations. Like, we have a really fabulous woman who lives in Connecticut doing a lot of our Spanish language translations, and she was an app user. We hired her to the app because we wanted to support someone directly, through, our user base and through that system. And alongside that kind of on a more, like, higher level decisions, we often have a lot of users kind of coming in and out of the office. We set up childcare. We wanna make sure that, like, the folks who are using our app kinda feel comfortable in our office space as well. So when they come in and do interviews or, help us make decisions about how best to serve them, we try and try and be as accommodating as possible. In terms of, like, my job, so I work on our product team, specifically on our core product. So that's, like, maintaining pressure BT, making sure that it still works, having, you know, like, and scoping new features as well. I would say that user feedback plays a really, really big role in how we continue to, like, invest resources into the app where we continue to keep building and developing. And we we do take a lot of care to, like, have conversations with folks. Like, we run surveys all the time. Like, hey. Like, is this actually useful for you? Does this does this make your life more stressful? Like, what are what are other contexts different life experience from you, are missing? And so we really try and fill in that broader picture. Out of curiosity,
are there any examples that come to mind as something where you got, like, an input and you're like, oh, well, crap. Maybe we need to make a change here that you'd be willing to share?
Yeah. I think so. I feel like there's actually a lot of lot of circumstances like that. But, I can say that for, like, let's say, that we're doing we're we're running a lot of research right now for a couple of different discovery things that we're doing internally, and a lot of them are kind of focused around, specific demographics. So 80% of our users are mothers. Parents, single parents who are using EBT or have nontraditional families, and they use it to budget not just for themselves, but for their kids. And so Fresh EBT as a product had really not catered to families at all. Like, we obviously, we had things like content running app for, like, kids museums in different cities that are free with EBT and all these kind of different things, but we had never really thought about specific messaging about families. And so come now that we've kind of really, like, dug into that and delved into that and had conversations with, working mothers all across the country, like, we realized, like, oh, this is a huge part of our users' identities and experiences that we just have not addressed. And so, like, that's, I think, for me, like, a really big learning, especially as someone who's on the younger side, who is not really thinking about families in any way in the near term. I think, like, that was a very, like, big eye opener for me personally.
I I wanted to follow-up real quick on the profit thing because I was I'm kinda curious. Like, one of the things that like, that sounds like an awesome model. And, like, one of the things that I've seen happen is, like, companies like this grow over time or something. It's like they start out with, like, a leadership team that is fully dedicated to that approach and a staff that is recruited based on that approach. And then, you know, times get tough or things start to change. And if it's not, like, written down everywhere, it's like, these are our official policies. Like, it starts to kinda change a little bit. Like, I've seen it happen a a bunch of, like, some civic tech, startups that start taking on DOD work or something that a lot of people at the company impose. So Mhmm. I'm curious, like, how how much is it, like, really enshrined in in your company policies and stuff to maintain that approach?
Yeah. Super, super good question. Really important one. I would say it's very, very enshrined, not just kind of in the stuff that our, like, partnerships team does. They obviously have that as their kind of, like, driving mission statement day to day. But even the things, that, like, you can look in our website and our company values, and one of the first one is, like, is listen first. Let's make sure that folks who we serve have a seat at the table. And, like, those things are baked into anything from our performance reviews, how well are you exemplifying that, how how actually thoughtful and empathetic are you being, with our user base to the way that we interview to the way that we shape culture, even to the way that we decorate our office. We did this really awesome thing a while back where we actually commissioned a piece of art from one of our users, and it's hanging up somewhere. I can't actually see it from here, but it's it's somewhere in here. And so, like, we we really do try and, like, actively ingrain that not just into our processes, but in our physical space and our day to day.
Okay. So I wanted to travel back in time a little bit and talk about your experience at Census. Mhmm. Because I, know you were on a kinda innovation type team there. And I'm curious, like, if you could tell us a little bit about the team you worked on, and, I'm especially curious about, you know, what you expected it to be like when you joined and then what your actual experience was like when you were there.
Totally. I worked on it's kind of phrased just like a startup within Census. It's called it was called or I think it's still called Census Open Innovation Labs. It had it ran basically a lot of different programs, the main one being the Opportunity Project, which is kind of a public private partnership type of program. We would go to companies like IBM or Airbnb and Google and be like, hey. Can we, like, borrow some engineers to do this really cool thing and showcase some federal data while we do it? So I think it was a really cool experience coming in, especially kind of, like, as a I think I I I've participated in this through the civic digital fellowship program and by putting it forward. So it was cool to be there kind of around the summer, like, kind of as an intern, but also given a lot of responsibility in kind of shaping, the messaging and the mission of, like, the program and kind of get into touch a lot of those different parts. I don't know. I don't really know what I expected, to be honest. That's kind of as I'm kinda thinking back, because it's it's almost like a weird dichotomy of, like, this massive bureaucracy and then this, like, startup kinda trying to just do what it's trying to do. And, you know, there are definitely points where we, the two kind of methodologies or ways of thinking or different ways that we would approach our work bumped up against, you know, older things or not traditions, but kind of, like, rules or, like, regulations or, you know, it took a long time for us to, to even, like, kind of, like, get the right technology. Like, we I hot spotted from my phone the entire summer because I think, like, there's a whole process to get, like, Adobe Illustrator on my computer, which I think is is a not uncommon experience from what I hear. True. True. Yeah. But I think I ended up learning a lot. It was a really it was really sometimes difficult but rewarding. Cool.
I one of the things I've been thinking about related to that, you know, it's it's very inspiring and awesome work, and yet sometimes there's a lot of kind of burnout or something that we don't expect. Mhmm. And I've been thinking a lot about how there's a lot of unwritten rules that are crucial to the way that 18 f or USDS, in my experience, functions. Like, we not not not perfectly, but, a lot of times we've negotiated for better pay, better working conditions, better hardware. You know, if if things are going poorly or we need to speak truth to power and it doesn't work out, we have a lot of protection from our leadership, or we can move from another agency if we have to. You know? I'm I'm just I'm curious, like, how much you think that that kind of mentality is also spreading because I don't think we talk about it as much.
Mhmm. Yeah. I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind because it's it's interesting to kind of becoming into civic tech and now kind of coming out of it a little bit. In part because, like, I think there is a slight defensiveness and because it's such a young industry. It's you know, everybody still really wants everyone to be super gung ho, and then, like, we kind of run up all these difficult questions about, like, should we be political? Like, how outspoken should we be? Things like that. And it feels I mean, I I understand, like, the hesitation to some degree or, like, the the desire to kind of wanna be, like, a, let's just I'll get on the boat and everything will be fine kind of thing. You need buy in. You you need to kind of play politics for that. And, like, I I feel like I can't really begrudge anyone for doing that, but I think it definitely contributed a little bit to my own burnout. I won't say I'm burnout necessarily, but I think it was just like I think I wanted to kind of have the experience of, you know, doing something like a for profit or a private sector, and just, you know, reflect on that from a little bit of a distance. I think you can definitely kinda see those dynamics playing out even as you leave. But, again, it's it's difficult to, like, really for me to take a stance because I understand why it needs to happen.
Yeah. Yeah. Well and, like, the other part about our model and is also part of, I think, the, like, the fellowship or the, internship model is that we expect to, like, leave after a short period of time. And, you know, as we talk about, like, telling state and city governments to implement these models, we that's less less significantly less practical for them. Mhmm. So I'm curious, like, did you feel like you could have, like, stayed there and been happy for a long time? Or, like, what do you think about that, like, turnover model?
The turnover model. I think the turnover model is interesting. I I actually stayed on contact with Census for a while after my fellowship, so, I didn't fall, you know, super strictly into the turnover. But I think to some degree, like, a a lot of it is kind of, like, I think we may need to do a better job of managing expectations. Like, you'd come in and, you know, you definitely should not expect a start up experience. You should definitely not expect, like, a tech company experience because a government isn't that. It's we we get the government to be around, like, a business people. It's not. It probably should not be, in my opinion at least. And so, like, I think, you know, something that may contribute to at least, like, kind of my feeling of burnout was that, like, oh, like, this is this is kind of just a lot to handle. It's such a unique and different problem space. And I felt like I was as I kind of got into it, was more and more prepared to handle that day to day, but, ultimately, I just kinda want That, comment about, like, burnout feelings has come up, I think, a few times as we've been talking through this with you.
I'd be curious. Are there any, like, techniques that you were doing personally to try to either, like, stave it off, prevent it, however you wanna look at it in order to, like, kinda keep yourself from burning out, before due time?
Mhmm. Or that you're doing right now. Like, it's really hard when you're talking to people all the time who have really difficult youth life experiences and try I don't know. I get really frustrated that I can't do do more to help.
Mhmm. Yeah. I feel that way. Can I ask a clarifying question, Ryan? If do are you specifically talking about, like, civic tech or in kind of, like, the emotional stuff in my role day to day now?
I was actually thinking probably, like, the the latter kind of broader scope just like the like, burnout as a concept, whether it's, like, what you're doing now or or otherwise. Yep.
Mhmm. Yeah. I definitely am, like, a very emotional person, I think. And so, like, there are moments, like, in when I was working at Census where I kind of was feeling that burn off from just, like, you know, bureaucracy and, like, kind of typical things. But I would say that I experienced, like, definitely, especially earlier in my role here at Propel, there was definitely, you know, a non insignificant amount of it. I was talking to people every single day. I manage a lot of our customer experience processes. So having conversations with folks who are just really in difficult situations, and not being able to do anything about it because I am not the government and did not have the institutional power that I wish I could have to just fix the problem. But, like, I think part of it is trying to make sure, at least for me, that we're kind of, like, staying on mission. Like, it's difficult work, and I'm sure our colleagues in government who are, you know, frontline staff or caseworkers who hear this every single day definitely have no easier than I did, if anything much worse. And so, like, to be able to think about it in terms of, like, I'm doing, an active process to try and, like, make a situation better. It one of our, like, early things that Propel was, like, called Google the pumpkin. I learned this story the other day, in that I think it was referring to a really early email we got from the user. It was way before I started. They were asking if they could use EBT benefits to buy a pumpkin for Halloween, and nobody in the office knew the answer. And it was one of those things where it's like, well, we should, like, put in the effort to figure this out for this person. Like, it's a good, regardless of what it's a good question or not. Like, it's a thing that somebody needs and somebody wants to know and may put a lot of emotional investment into knowing. And so, like, put keeping that in the back of our minds and being like, we're going to do this service and we're gonna do the extra mile and, like, we are going to, you know, make the effort to take the emotional hit, because it helps somebody at the end of the day. I think that's important. But I also think, like, I'm managing it better now by doing a lot of things outside of work, some organizing work and stuff,
to make me feel like I'm making a difference in other ways. So I think this wouldn't be a hard hitting journalistic program if I didn't follow-up by asking, was could they buy the pumpkin? What was the answer?
I think it counts as a, like, a food or vegetable. So if you buy it at a grocery store, I think it counts.
Okay. Well, that that's good to know.
Yeah. Just in case.
Yeah. I think those are great points. I mean, two kind of themes that I've heard before that it sounds like you're talking about are, you know, celebrating the wins, that you do have. It's so crucial, especially to have that kind of team camaraderie and recognition of, you know, even the small wins that, and progress that you're making and then also kind of meaning into the gratitude, in your own life that you're not personally experiencing some of those things, and and just recognizing that you're kinda lucky and grateful for that.
Mhmm. For sure. For sure. Yeah. It's really revealing. It's a really revealing experience, I think, for a lot of people in tech to be able to come into this space and, you know, do the stuff that you were doing at VA, for example. Civic Tech, I think, really engages people in a a world broader than their own. I I would love for there to be more of that.
Cool. Well, so that actually is a good transition into another question. I'm gonna skip ahead a little bit, because I I know that, you volunteer with DSA, which is the Democratic Socialists of America, which are volunteer groups across the country fighting for their communities and, winning things like, paid sick leave and higher minimum wages, in their areas. So I'm curious, how did you first get into, DSA? How did you first, like, hear about it? What was your first entry point?
Mhmm. Yeah. For the DSA love. My first entry point was actually one of my friends in school. So I graduated from NYU just about a year ago now, and she had been super, super involved in the YDSA, which is, like, the youth offshoot of DSA. There was a branch at NYU, and so we were doing a lot of, or she was doing a lot of kind of work with them. It was also around the time where Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Julia Salazar, who is a, state senator in New York, were kind of, like, two really rising stars in the world of, progressive politics. And so, like, she was, like, door knocking for AOC and Julia Salazar, and, like, I just found that work to be super, super inspiring. So I started paying my dues and then not doing much else because it was just, like, I don't know. I think I was anxious to do some of the, like, on the groundwork that DSA really requires to, you know, make change. And then 2020 happened, and I was just kind of scrolling through Twitter aimlessly one day watching everybody get really, you know, stressed about, you know, all of the circumstances that were happening. And I think, you know, it finally clicked. I was like, no. I have, like, time now. I should I should really get involved. And so, the past few weeks or month or so since then, I've been getting out and doing a lot of canvassing for, the next DFA slate in New York to, a couple of really awesome local candidates who are running in Brooklyn to represent, these new our neighborhoods in Albany, in the state house, in the state senate, and the state assembly. Mhmm.
As you're no doubt aware personally now, you know, getting involved politically like this, it's not only important, but it requires, you know, a bit of putting yourself out there. You know, when you're knocking on doors or calling folks, like, there's some vulnerability you're putting out there and saying, like, this is where I stand. This is what I believe in and kind of making that that signal there. I'd be curious to know, like, what is the why that drives you to to go and do all of that?
Mhmm. Yeah. Putting yourself out there. Not not quite not so different from being on a podcast. The why, I think, is I I personally feel it as kind of tied to my interest in civic tech and my day to day work, is that I just kind kind of have always, like, felt really strongly about inequity, just from different circumstances in my personal life, but also kind of just having, you know, the immense privilege of being around people who have taught me so much about different perspectives and what it's like to grow up in different circumstances around The United States. It always felt kind of weird to me or deeply unfair to me that, like, you know, different circumstances like your ZIP code could determine so much of your future. And so, I wanted to get into Civic Tech for that reason because I wanted to do something good with my career. And I think as I've, you know, settled in and gotten comfortable and, you know, really started to feel like I could do more, I kinda just started looking in that direction and be like, what else can I do? What else can I contribute to? Or what other things can I do to make me, you know, be part of something greater than myself?
One of the recent wins that I I noticed that I was honestly shocked and thrilled actually finally happened was getting rid of brokerage fees. Yes. I was wondering, can you explain to folks what brokerage fees are and why they're so bad? Yes. Oh my god. Little bit about the fight. Yeah.
Every time I've had to pay a broker's fee, it's just flashing through my mind right now. So brokerage fees in a lot of major cities, essentially, when you are a landlord and you have apartments to list, you can hire a broker to help you list and find prospective tenants and do a lot of that prescreening so you as a landlord don't have to do it. And landlords in the past have kind of been able to pass on the cost of this as a brokerage fee to the prospective tenant. So if I were to rent an apartment through a broker, I would have to pay, like, my security deposit, probably the first and last month's rent, and a brokerage fee that's usually equivalent to, like, one month of rent. So if I was renting an apartment for a thousand dollars, I would pay a thousand dollars in security, 2,000 at first and last month, and then a thousand in brokerage fees. So a whole fourth of that money would go to a broker. And at at least in the case in New York City, I mean, that's a sizable chunk of money for a lot of people. And you can find no fee apartments. It was just kind of generally difficult, and landlords are not really incentivized to,
list things for no fee because they didn't have to pay the broker's fee. Yeah. I mean, that was the thing that was so crazy to me about New York was, like, it seemed like it was just almost impossible to find, no broker fee apartments, and it seems like there was quite a stranglehold on, like, and pressure on landlords to go with that approach.
Mhmm. For sure. Yeah. New York in particular has been, really grappling with, like, lobbying from the real estate industry at the highest level. So, the housing reforms that have passed through and the one that you mentioned, the the one that, you know, happens really suddenly and everyone's really excited about about making brokerage fees kind of legal, that felt like a huge win for a lot of, you know, the the whole DSA world, I think. Julia Salazar has been a really tremendous champion of housing rights, in Albany. So
can you tell us a little bit more about the races you're working on now? Like, not so much the race itself, but, like, literally, like, what do you do on a day to day basis to, like, be involved? Mhmm.
Yeah. And so, the DSA slate that I mentioned, it's a bunch of different really awesome folks, who are public servants, teachers, nurses, housing advocates. In particular, I've worked with, like, organizers who have been supporting three campaigns in particular. Jabari Brisport, who's running for state center, Farrah Soufrant Forest, who is running for state assembly, and, Marcela Martinez, who is also running for state assembly. So I've admittedly, like, not gotten super deep into the high levels of organizing, but I've been really thankful to be able to, like, actually go out and, like, have the experience of, like, knocking on doors and, like, talking to a lot of my neighbors and people who live in my community that I would not have, you know, the same kind of ex exposure to day to day. My first canvassing experience was actually going to NYCHA housing. So, NYCHA is the New York City Housing Authority. It's, I think, the biggest landowner in, probably, The United States. Some crazy factor like that. And the problem with NYCHA housing is that while they're public housing and they're you know, the quality of the individual buildings and apartments really varies. And so, going into a bunch of NYCHA buildings and talking to people who have really been politically disenfranchised, who were just kind of you know, they had questions about, like, why did we rip out a playground to replace it with a thing with radiation sign on the side, and nobody is telling me what it is and why I should not be concerned about it. It's kind of just talking to folks who have you know, who live with this day to day has been really, I think, a really valuable experience and really, really different.
I have a follow-up that's a bit about kinda more like the the experience of of going door to door. I remember myself in a past life when I, had the chance to do that a bit more, that, like, first time that you go canvassing, how there's that kinda like the kinda like apprehension, and then you finally do it. And your feelings, at least for me, changed completely about the practice. Could you talk a bit about, like, what it was like for you when you first started canvassing?
Yeah. I think DSA did a good job of welcoming first time canvases. So I was fortunate. Like, I went to an event. It was really cold. I was super underdressed for it. So I already was kinda miserable, and I was like, oh, this is this is gonna be a cursed experience, but it's fine. And I ended up getting paired with, somebody who was a really experienced canvasser who had, you know, been all over Brooklyn in every building, you know, found fun ways to get into every kind of different styles of apartments, apartment building. And, you know, he kind of walked me through a bunch of different, exercises. Like, we did a couple of, like, fake conversations, and that really kinda helped you with that. I still felt super, super anxious, but I think, like, once we kinda started talking to people and knocking on doors, it's maybe this is what you experienced a little bit, but I was just like, oh, these are just people. These are just people going about their lives who care about the same things that I do, who care about their communities. And we can just even if they don't agree with me, we can just have a nice conversation and get to know each other. I think I felt like a much deeper sense of attachment to to Brooklyn and to the people who live here, which my community at the Acura started doing that.
Yeah. I'd say in my experience, knocking on doors with DSA, it's, the fact that they often if you if you speak up and say, like, this is my first time or I'm new to this, pair you with a very experienced person is very comforting and also that they, what's so interesting about it is they kind of break down the conversation for you. And, like, a lot of times, they'll kind of explain, like, this is why we say this this way instead of asking it, like, a totally open ended random thing we say, like, can you do this exact thing? Or, you know, they they break down the the persuasive approach, and and a lot of it is is more about, not that you need to know every policy or be an expert in everything you're knocking on the door, but that you're actually asking people for, to tell you what's most important to them and, like, why that's so important and just kind of leading them towards, like, yeah. We all really do need health care or, like, yeah, brokerage fees are making it really hard for people to move or get an apartment. And, like Mhmm. Yeah. I think it's it's a lot easier than it seems.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fettle subtle push for everybody listening to, to get out there and canvass for foggy favor. Yeah. Just engage.
So I think we wanted to get a little bit, back out of politics and into your experience. Ryan, you had a question about, product management. Right?
Yeah. I've got a a question that's a bit about your, career journey. I noticed that you had transitioned from kinda like a development practice then across into a product management track where you are now. I would be curious about, you know, like, what made you what was, like, your why? Like, what gravitated you towards product management?
I don't actually know. It kind of just was the right was at the right time, I think. After I graduated from school, I had been looking at developer jobs, and I think, like, personality wise, you know, I I'm, like, a fidgety person. I like to be moving. I like to be talking. A lot of people were telling me that you might actually be interested in product management. I really didn't kinda it didn't sit with me until I graduated and was like, alright. Now what? And I think at that point, it was it was actually less about the title and, the role then Propel itself that made me really interested in kind of becoming, taking on this track. My manager had posted my the job description for my role in, a community that Lea runs. And I had, like, seen it, and I would like this company looks really cool. Like, it's mission that I feel really deeply passionate about. And they have this kind of entry level role of the thing that I haven't explored a lot, but am interested in. So I kinda just went for it. I did kind of in the lead up do a lot of work or do some work with putting it forward. I ran, like, a prototype product development program for them, for students, social impact ideas. And so that was kind of the first time I, like, dipped my foot into the methodology, but it wasn't really until, like, I joined Propeller, had the opportunity to join Propeller that I, like, really felt like it was time to
invest. I think that's a good point. Like, to get into product management, you you kinda need to this is a good and bad thing, but, like, you kinda, because it's the avenue that's not really open to everyone. You You know, we don't all have extra time to volunteer, but I think, like, having a side project or having a thing where you can practice it on your own, like in a CFA brigade or, like you did with, taking on more responsibility at putting it forward, like, I think is a really good first step for kind of breaking into that because everyone's always looking for someone with experience in it. They're never, like, interested in giving you your first job.
Mhmm. Yeah. For sure. And I think ACM positions in particular are quite difficult to come by unless they're you know, a lot of times they're in a program or in a really nested within a really large organization. I think Propel, I'm eternally grateful. They they took a chance on me. And the having that cross practice
in your path, does that influence your approach now to, like, how you go about your day to day and, like, the way you think about about problems? And if yes, how so?
Yeah. Totally. There are definitely times where, like, I've had to solve a problem at work, and I just went, hey. Can I just build a script for this? And I I I feel like everyone in tech or who who's had had, like, developer experience has just been like, man, this is this is so automatable. Like, why am I why am I copying and pasting these rows in in Excel document? And so, like, I think, you know, in moments like that, I definitely definitely am grateful for, you know, my my background, in learning. But I would say, like, it it it helps kind of inform, like, implementation ideas, but I think practice comes from, the experience of being, like, steeped in a a a very product forward culture.
Do you have some experience with that, Mohit, on, like, running your brigade? Like, are you seeing a lot of folks trying to kind of level up or get into a new field still? Or
Yes. Actually, most of our most of our members are people, coming from coding boot camps or or, I mean, college students who are trying to, I mean, we we we have a we have a variety of majors who are like, hey. You know, I tried I tried, you know, you know, biology or I tried writing, but it just one, isn't paying the bills, and two, it's not something that I'm too passionate about. So so I I figured I'd try. And, you know, you you you're talking about having, like, a having a space where you can just kind of test anything out. I mean, I feel like our brigade is a perfect spot where people are like, yeah. I mean, I'm I'm learning, but I'm I'm I wanna work on a project. I feel like, you know, I'm done I'm done studying. I just wanna, you know, get some experience and get jump in there. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I was like that too. And I started when I was. And going from, like, a coding background to now doing more of, like, project management, and and and and, you know, really, really trying to guide projects, I feel like, that kinda resonated with me when you were talking about that. Emily, I know you've mentioned,
before, like, we need more, not just the entry level, but the, like, few years of experience roles in civic tech. Right? Can you tell us a little bit about I mean, I know that was because Coding It Forward is doing a great a good job of, like, getting folks that end that entry point as interns, but I'm curious what you've seen around or what you're thinking about that.
Yeah. Totally. I the coding report has done, like, a really, really excellent job of kind of building that pipeline, but it still kinda feels like I think now that I've aged out of the coding it forward years, I definitely have, like, a lot of friends or people I've kind of met or who are kind of in my circle who are really, really interested in technology, who really want to get, to get into this field somehow. And there's, like, some confusion there whether or not it's, like, should I go work at, like, a nonprofit? Like, should I should I spend my formative years at a a giant tech company? Should I, you know, like there's a lot of different paths I could potentially lead there, but it feels like for a lot of people really overwhelming to kind of, or this is my sense at least from my the conversations I've had with my friends. Like, it feels kind of overwhelming to kind of, you know, take a step into this world because it feels so small and so intimate and everybody knows each other. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it doesn't seem like there's an easy way to be like, oh, I wanna I wanna switch and jump into this. It it feels like there's a lot of awesome opportunities now, like, putting it forward in other groups, you know, for students and for people who are just out of school. But, for, you know, that kind of middle group of, like, people who are kind of experienced but not super super experienced yet, there it seems like there's still some difficulty there.
Yeah. Question about that is, like, so I mean, I'm I'm in there right now. You know, I'm going I I lead the brigade. I deal with the CERT tech, but I also work at a for profit company. So it's like so how do you I mean, you're talking about it is overwhelming, and and I'm I'm at that point where I'm like, do I do I what do I wanna really, you know, throw myself at? So and so, I mean, how do you how did you how do you make a how did you make that decision on, like, what or have you made the decision on, like, what, yeah.
On kind of leaping from
Like, for profit to nonprofit or or even from, like, public to private sector.
Mhmm. Yeah. I think I am someone who enjoys a bit of context switching. And the very first thing I ever did was intern for civic hall in New York, for, I think, a now defunct program called the Civic Hall Labs division. So they ran, like, direct service program, though, specifically working with Delta NYC, which, paired technology professionals who had volunteered their time with nonprofits who had tech needs. And so I think, like, starting in that and kind of experiencing, like, okay. Like, this is what nonprofits look like. Here are the specific kind of challenges of this domain. Like, whether it's funding or, you know, like, getting support from execs or, you know, planning out, like, how to maintain a program. It taught me a lot about, like, kinda staying on my feet, like, just, like, how to to weather a storm, I think, or just to adapt to challenges day to day. And I think from there, I kind of was like, okay. Like, let's go for full structure. I wanna try something with a lot of structure. And I think that's, like, how I was like, okay. Let's try government. And I think I realized that there was, like, depending on the space, like, you can have a lot of freedom and a lot a lot of movement, but inevitably, you'll you'll run up against bureaucracy. That's kind of just what's gonna happen. And so I think coming back down to private sector was, like, my intermediary between the two of, like, I wanted to work somewhere small. I wanted to, you know, get to know the people that I work with and, you know, be around people who are really, like, focused on impact and mission. So for me, it was like it was less kind of, like, how do I think about public to private and more about, like, what are my values as a person and what are things that I know that I enjoy. And regardless of that context, like, I knew that I cared about mission. I cared about, you know, working with really great people. I cared about, like, a great culture. And so, like, I came out of this point and tried to find things in that realm, like, based on those criteria as opposed to the more broader ones. I thought that was helpful. I don't know what
Yeah. That sounds kind of familiar to what like, I was in a gov project manager role before eighteen f started, and I was pretty miserable and, like, sat really sat down and thought, like, okay. What actually makes me happy in a job? Like, it's being around like, learning, having an impact, being around people who are, like, I can learn from and who are funny. Like, who there's, like, a like, what you're saying about culture. Like, there's a sense of culture and, like, then, like, when I started hearing the rumors of 18 f, it was like, okay. I'm chasing that down and harassing them every day to let me in. So, I'm still trying to figure out, like, now that I've done 18 f and USDS, like, what what else has that? So Mhmm.
We'll see. I don't know. Yeah. Humor is so underrated in a workplace. Truly, like, my son memes in Slack every day, and I refer to my manager as my dude, and it's great.
Yes.
Yeah. Needs to be a lot of crazy emojis to show that there's healthy culture
in Slack.
Owen, real quick. We do have a question in the chat asking what civic groups we each work with. Do we wanna give that answer as, like, a recap for folks that are maybe hopped in late to as far as, like, who we're affiliated with?
Yeah. You mean, like, right now? Mhmm. Or so for me, I'm I I I'm on leave from the VA, but I'm I'm there now and kinda trying to figure out what to do next or possibly go back and find a new project there at VA. And then I volunteer a lot through, DSA locally, and, we've worked on stuff like, paid sick leave and and getting, local, our congressmen to support Green New Deal and Medicare for all. And I think, like, for me, being able to, like, see that kind of quick have build that community and see that kind of quick change and have that kind of direct action and, like, leveling up my organizing skills, learning how to run a canvas, learning how to train, people knocking on doors, like, has been a good matching to the, like, slower pace of and bureaucracy of government. And then I, like, try to show up as many civic tech things as I can.
Emily, would you like to go next?
Yeah. Sure. So I currently work at Propel, which is a consumer software startup, that builds financial tools for low income Americans. We're based in Downtown Brooklyn, and we're hiring. And I, like Leah, also organize a bit with DSA in my free time, down here in Brooklyn up here in Brooklyn. I don't know where we are geographically. East here in Brooklyn. And we are working on specifically, electing or I am currently working with a lot of folks who are trying to get some really awesome local elected elected in the office on Green New Deal Medicare for all and housing for all platforms.
And, Mohit?
I, currently lead, OpenSTL. It's a local code for America Brigade. So I do mostly mostly work through there and then, try and get more involved.
And then I, I also I help out with the Code for America Brigade called Code for Chicago. And by day, to pay the bills, I'm a software engineer on a gov project called MillMove. Helps service members move their personal stuff when they're told, hey. Time to transfer to that other base.
That is one of the few projects that does not bother me about working with DOD because it's just, like, such a nightmare for folks who are currently working there. Like, we're trying to sort out that move thing. So, I mean, it's not as much of a nightmare anymore because of that project.
Agreed. Logistics must be crazy.
Oh, yeah. My, the best feedback I've gotten so far is I I have a cousin that's that serves in the, army band, and I found out that he had used it, our our software, for their move. And so I immediately had to, like, ask them everything about their experience. And they told me that they didn't hate it, and it wasn't painful. So I was like, yes.
It is. That's quite an accomplishment for any move, let alone under the DOD bureaucracy. Oh, yeah.
You got another broker's fees? Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead.
No. I just made a terrible joke about whether or not they have to pay broker's fees. Yeah.
Here's another question. What does Code for America actually do?
So the way I usually I'm curious what y'all say. I usually explain it by saying, they kinda have a few different divisions. There's, the brigades, which are a national network of volunteer groups across the country, that work on volunteer projects in their communities, a lot of times trying to get open data or do things with open data or, try to, you know, build tools that folks can use to make it easier to apply for benefits or something like that. And then they have a team that is focused on the, fellows. And the fellowship program has changed and evolved a lot over the years, and, they are now embedding folks in brigades, right, and, like, recruiting people from brigades and and paying them, giving them opportunities to work more on their specific projects. And then there's a whole group of folks who work for CFA, and they work on, projects directly with government agencies sometimes. So we've seen a lot of work that they've done lately on, expunging records for marijuana convictions in states that have recently legalized weed. And, they do a lot of stuff that's similar to, like, what Propel is doing where they, build tools that help you manage your food stamp benefits, stuff like that. I'm probably leaving a lot of stuff out. Do you all wanna add billing?
Ryan, why don't you go take a take a shot at it?
I don't know that I have much to add there. I I think that answer is was pretty good. And I I mean, is there anything that you wanted to add to it?
No. I don't think so, actually.
It's fairly spot on. Well, why don't you tell us about one of the projects that you're working on right now in the OpenSCL?
Yeah. So there's like a, it's a Code for America, like, National Code for America has been known for, expungement for a project of their called Clear My Record in California. And, one of the things that, you know, we we were we were beginning to be interested in is seeing if we could kinda implement a similar project in in Missouri. And, we're right now collaborating with, the the Kansas City Brigade to see if we can, implement an automatic expungement for drug related charges, here in Missouri. So so right now, we're it's, it's kind of an uphill battle, but, right now we're we're working with local, like nonprofit law firms, to kinda start a clinic, clinic system, here. And Kansas City has been doing the same for, like, a year now. And then also trying to, improve, like, the overall database that the state has for expungement records, where it's the data kind of exists, but it's really, really hard to access. So we're working with prosecutors, in in in Saint Louis as well as in Kansas City and Jackson County, to see if we can kick start the the automation. Yeah. That's meaningful work. Yeah. I think it's I think it's fairly fairly needed. I mean, just just just the legislation itself is really bad. There's a so it costs money. So I I like to tell a story, every time now that now that I know about it, which kind of like surprised me. It took me it took me it took me about my surprise when I saw it. So essentially, it costs money. It costs about $250 to to to file a petition in Missouri. And if you can't afford it, you have to fill out a form. That form is literally called, it was like proof of being a poor person. Like, if you go look it up, it's that form is it exists. It's they're literally just pay your poor person. So so I was like, okay. I think this is something that we need to see if we can not not not, you know, allow that. So
All all my brain can say to that is yikes.
Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of proving you're poor enough to get benefits, which that's why we need your universality where we tax the rich, and we give it away for you to everyone. And on that note, stop texting Emily's five and let her get going.
I'm here to talk about taxing the rich all day.
Cool. So it's it sounds like we're we're drawn to a close here. I last time, we did, like, a little quick roundup of things that we wanted to say, like, hey. You should take a look at this thing. It's happening now or soon. And I did have an item for that if y'all will allow me to indulge myself with that. I happened to notice on the Code for America Slack that there is now a brigade in Columbus, Ohio, which some of you out there may know that is, like, a former hometown of mine. So I just wanted to give them a little congratulatory message here on the stream for starting Open Columbus. Woo hoo. Yes. And you can find them @meetup.comslashopencolumbus as one word.
Yep. I also have one thing. March 7, it's open day to day. If you if anyone is available to, you know, kinda just work work on, you know, playing with datasets or or or creating some visualizations. I'm sure there's there's most, it's it's a international. There's local events all over the world. So, if you got time on a Saturday, you wanna come hang out, play some play with some data, I definitely recommend it.
Cool. I I have one more thing. I've said this a number of times, but I'm sorry to be annoying, yours and team. But Rupaul is hiring. Looking for product designers, legal, software engineers, product folks, come work on cool stuff with me and shoot me that good DM.
Oh, nice. I said I think I said this last time, but in New York City's open day to day event school of data is March 7, and I recently finagled a way to get myself there. So, let me know if you're heading there or if you wanna do some kind of happy hour in New York because I will be working. Do it.
Go forth and finagle.
I call life advice. Sweet.
Great. I wanna thank everyone for coming with us on this journey on this stream, and I wanna thank, you, Emily, especially for spending your time with us and letting us learn from your experiences and your
views. Cool. Yeah. Thanks a lot for having me on. This was super fun.
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