45 Engineering Leadership with USDS' Lisa Chung
United Stats Digital Services Engineering Director [Lisa Chung](https://www.linkedin.com/in/coderlisa/) joined us to talk engineering culture, hiring diversity and inclusion, and vendor best practices. We had the chance to sit down and learn from her in March as she was taking on this leadership role.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Matt Cutts Ted Talk](https://www.ted.com/talks/matt_cutts_what_happens_when_a_silicon_valley_technologist_works_for_the_government)<br>- [The Government Fix (book)](https://www.senseandrespondpress.com/the-government-fix)<br>- [USDS Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/usdigitalservice/)<br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
Top Keywords
- digital service 0.018
- usds 0.015
- service 0.013
- digital 0.012
- tech 0.009
- government 0.007
- civic tech 0.007
- civic 0.007
- report 0.006
- work 0.006
- vendors 0.005
- cross functional 0.005
Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Lisa, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do?
Sure. Yeah. My name is Lisa Chung, and I'm a software engineer with US Digital Service. I've been with USDS for two and a half years now. It's my first time working in civic tech. USDS is a civic tech group at the federal government level. We're a small group of technologists about under 200 folks based in Washington, DC. We turned six years old this year, and I'm actually stepping into the director of engineering role for USDS, taking over who David Holmes was on your podcast, back in June. And this is my first full week in that role. I survived.
It's great to hear that you just survived, and, also, congratulations on on taking on the role. One of the things we tend to start with on civic tech chat is why, personal why in particular. So what would you say is your personal why? You know, the thing that drives you out of to get out of bed each morning and do what you do.
My personal why would be, the social impact. This is my first time working in Civic Tech back in 2017. I hadn't really heard about USPS. I heard about, Code for America, but not really been involved with that. My personal why, government means different things to different people. For me, I think of the critical service that that, uphold a safety net and equal rights so that take a family, making sure that they have a safe place to to sleep, access to to health care, education, a safe place to work, a way to support themselves. When any of those government services fail or or don't work well, I I I think about the impact. And, at US at US Digital Service, when we consider what we should be working on, which is at the federal government level, one thing we have in mind is to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people in the greatest need, and and I can get behind that mission. So that's my personal why.
Are there any podcasts, print media, videos, or some other such thing like that that you'd say or things you'd recommend to our audience here?
Yes. So there's three things I I wanted to to call out. One, there's, a short six minute TED talk that our administrator, Matt Cutts, gave in April, and it's like an appeal for technologists to partner with civil servants at the city, state, and national level levels. And you don't have to do this forever, but you can make a difference in in public service. It's just six minutes. A second one is a very slim book, The Government Fix, How to Innovate in Government, 64 pages. It's a good cross functional look at civic tech at the city, state, and federal levels. The third one I would say is the USDS Instagram feed. It's it's a fun, good representation of of USDS are the three that I would call out.
Could you tell us a bit about the career path that came before you now, taking on this leadership post?
So I joined in September 2017. I was before that in the private sector for about ten years. The last six of which, I spent at The Motley Fool in Alexandria, and that was a really great, great environment. That's where I think I, really came into my own as a as a software developer, got that confidence, and and it sunk in that I can do this, be a software developer. And that's not coincidental. I think at The Motley Fool, I was fortunate to have key people there who helped me on that path. It's also while at The Motley Fool that I I met Robbie Holmes, at one of the local tech community that's and learned about US digital service. He's a he's a great ambassador, and that it's while at the Motley Fool that I met Robbie Holmes at the local tech community meetups, and learned about US digital service. He's a great ambassador for USDS. He's actually an engineer, with USGS. He's done a lot of work also to build a local tech community here in DC. So that's how I learned about it. And from what he described, it it made sense on paper, the scale of the problems, the social impact, the colleagues that are technically solid and also great team players. It just made sense, since it was the right thing to do. And that's how I landed at at digital service. I spent my first two years, I think, at Veterans Affairs doing more DevOps work, and then some a variety of other projects. And then, I applied for the dark tool.
One thing that sticks out to me from from the path you described is that you don't come from kinda like that, quote, unquote, like, big tech group of companies that I I think USDS is somewhat known for pulling from. Mhmm. How would you say that difference in where you come from colors your perspective and how you solve problems?
So I'm very familiar with with what you're, referring to the idea of Silicon Valley, perhaps startups. I don't have any of that. I don't have any startup experience. And so sometimes that makes me a little bit unsure. But I've been at digital service for two and a half years. I know that I am able to do the work, and, I know every I know people aren't gonna let me fail. But I know that I'm able to do the work and knowing that, it's become even more important to me to help bring in others, who might have the same initial doubts of, no. I don't have that background. Am I gonna be able to make a difference? Yes. You can. It does color my perspective, but I think it it helps me as as director to be more empathetic and and try harder to reach out to those folks.
I think something I'm hearing there is something that I think a lot of folks can relate to. It sounds a bit like maybe you've struggled with, like, a little bit of, like, that kind of imposter syndrome monster, if for lack of a better way to put it. I know that I myself have had that too. I can totally relate. And I know a lot of other people out there in the world similarly have experienced that. How has that experience been for you? Like, have there been any, like, tips you would give for someone who's currently facing that?
So imposter syndrome, I totally agree with, that sentiment. I think I've been in that boat. I think a lot of my colleagues have been in, like, in that boat, and and I don't think it's necessarily a a horrible thing to admit. That said, when it gets in the way of doing your job or when it gets in in the way of you feeling good about yourself, that's something to pay attention to. If I had any tips, it would be not to pretend you don't have imposter syndrome, not to pretend, to avoid pretending that everything's fine, because everyone's gonna feel some doubt. And I think when you can own up to that, people can it can ultimately be a healthier environment and and more productive because people can help you out and, help you get reoriented and and remind you that you do know what you're doing. That would be my only tip, I guess.
I appreciate you sharing that. I I think you make a a keen point when you mention that you shouldn't pretend everything's fine. Like, I I think, like, you're you're really making the case for, like, you know, it's okay to be vulnerable and and to and to face it. So I really appreciate you being willing to do that. You also have mentioned that you're, two and a half years into your term. So what would you say is your your why for continuing your service? You're kind of a, you know, a ways into your tour here. What's the why that's driving that?
So I have to say we so we are at US Digital Service, we are term limited, six months up to four years. But people joke of of having signed on for six months and then finding themselves still here after after three years or four years, the idea of commitment escalation. For me personally, the work still matters, and and I feel the first three, six months, I was just trying to figure out this new world of federal federal systems and why is it so hard to do x or y and, bureaucracy is horrible was my initial, reaction. But, no, all that all these policies are there for a reason, and owning up to that, I guess, and understanding the reality, and then being able to move forward. That took me a while. So I I don't so two and a half years, but I don't think I was effective for two and a half years. I I I needed a bit of a, I needed help getting started, but the work still matters. I think I finally kind of understand how to get things, get things done. Also, something that that factors into that is, the reason for continuing my services I is this opportunity to now be the director of engineering at digital service, which, every director picks their own path. For me, I'm really looking forward to spending more time with the hiring pipeline and trying to see, where we can take that, how can we get engineers more involved, in that process. And I'm I'm really excited to do that, and that's, kind of a a reset button in a way.
Imagine an important consideration for being a leader in a practice like engineering is how one intends to influence the culture of that practice. How would you describe the culture for engineering at USDS, and how would you like to have an impact on that?
So I appreciate what we have. We have a very good thing going, mission oriented, mission driven, tech savvy people. My impact, what's important to me, is to distill the notion that we're Silicon Valley folks. That's not my story. There's quite a few of us who don't have that story, but it doesn't make any of us more or less impactful or capable when it comes to improving government services, improving services for small business owners, veterans, immigrants. My impact, I wanna make USDS seem more even more accessible.
You've mentioned hiring a bit, as we've talked, throughout this first section here, which is a great way to segue us into a topic that I'd like to dig into, and that's that I'd like to talk a bit about the recent spring release of the USDS diversity and inclusion report. What would you say is the why for y'all gathering this data and then subsequently re releasing the report to the rep to the public?
You know, I'm really excited you noticed, that you noticed this update. I remember when there was first talk about even creating this type of report. I think this was back in late twenty seventeen, early twenty eighteen. I wasn't an active part of putting together this report, but I know that we went through several iterations. And I think that that indicates it's important to US Digital Service. And I'm really proud that it's on our website. For me, the the why for gathering this out a few reasons. I can't tell you the the official stance, but as someone at US Digital Service who is proud that that we do post this info according to the me, the why is that we want to hire a workforce that reflects the American people. US Digital Service works best when we represent an equally diverse set of perspectives. And, truly, our our diversity makes us better and more effective. And the care that we put into this report and keeping it up to date, having this spring release, I think that reflects that desire. And, actually, an earlier version, I think the fall version, showed where we're where the places we go to recruit. And I personally, me personally, I liked that, graphic because it showed that we're not just going to Silicon Valley or or the the big name cities. We go across The US. Last year, I was on recruiting events to, Columbus, Ohio, Pittsburgh, Seattle. We've also been a sponsor at at AfroTech and several lesbians who tech events, and that we and that we that we value a diverse community and actively recruit for a diverse community is is a point of pride for me. Releasing the report to the public, for me, I I'm hopeful that it will encourage other federal organizations to have that kind of transparency.
These sorts of reports can turn up both things that an organization would consider a win as well as those that it would seek to do better at. For example, in the report we're talking about, it mentions that 24% of your workforce is made up of folks identifying in racial and ethnic minority groups, which is also a thing the report mentions is a thing that USDS would like to improve upon. From your perspective, how do you think the organization can go about, achieving that aim?
You know, there's a lot I'm gonna miss here. I I wanna start with just an appreciation because I I feel that sometimes these numbers, it's it's a secondary thing that it it's it's descriptive data, whereas at at digital service, at USGS, we we take these things seriously. We we are publishing that number. We are being transparent. We are updating those numbers, updating those reports. We have community guidelines, and we take those seriously. One one thing that really sticks out to me two things, that stick out to me as points of pride. One, going back to the idea that USDS is sponsoring events like, lesbians who tech and Afro tech, that we we mean it. We we wanna go there. The second and I have a feeling that some of these diversity and inclusion events, sometimes it's something that you're asked to do in your spare time. At US Digital Service, we have this thing called discovery sprints. The idea that you send a cross functional team to an agency to actually, you know, investigate a platform or or write or, meet with stakeholders. And, actually, this past winter, we we had a dis a discovery span, a cross functional team that, this was their day to day work was to dig into this. It's not a spare time activity, but it's a core part of how we operate at your social service and how we recruit and, the the the work that we decide to take on.
Another section of the report talks about how you folks partner with government human resources offices in order to collect, data for it and that that data doesn't necessarily contain everything the organization is looking for. Could you speak a little bit to the sorts of improvements that your organization might work with those partners to make, as we head into the future?
Yes. Some things to start with. Gender, male, female, that it's binary is one thing, that that that gender information should be binary. When when forms ask about race, sometimes they the typical is is five to six categories. Often there's no mixed race category. There is often an Asian or Pacific Islander category, but, Ryan, what is that? And so working to change how that data is collected and making the options more representative of of the American people.
As you seek to kind of improve the the state of those questions, are there any, like, tools or techniques that y'all have at your disposal to kinda, I don't know if nudge is the right word, but to kinda, like, try to improve that situation. Because, obviously, you're you're kinda having to collaborate with another part of government to do this.
I think nudge is is the right word. I think we we are struggling to, I I I am not, the expert on this at digital service. I think it is a very difficult space, and there are so many policies and things to consider, and where to store this data. If it were easy if it were easy, we we would have done, you know, AB testing it and tried a few things, but, we haven't we haven't solved it. We we care about it. And, actually, last December, we we had we set up a a cross functional team that that did a a research sprint into this very area. So we are committing time and resources, to to trying to trying to figure out where where which little steps to take, but it's it's a difficult space.
At at USDS, I I imagine you work with a multitude of vendors in the tech space. As folks, out there listening might be aware, I myself work at, such a vendor called Trust, and it's part of this organization called the Digital Services Coalition, which is a grouping of of vendors that are trying to advocate for change in in that very relationship between government and organizations like themselves. From your perspective, how is the relationship with vendors like that different than other ones perhaps?
Yeah. So we've had good experiences working with groups in the digital services coalition. Procurement is a bigger problem than than anyone can imagine. So at US Digital Service, we're term limited, I think four years max. And and if if we're really, you know, if we all or are we if if we're really committed to this idea of sustainable lasting change in how the government builds digital services, we need to be able to cultivate experience. We need to be able to cultivate expertise and and what to look for in vendor capabilities, And we need vendors that can apply modern we need vendors that can apply modern best practices and and not just, you know, write them up in a report.
And you mentioned there's, there's kinda, like, modern practices, that go beyond just a report. What would you say some of those are? Like, what are those practices that you're hoping that those vendors are are learning and using as they work with government?
Just to start user centered design, monitoring the the the idea of built it and toss it over the wall, and another team maintains it, getting away from that, doing things iteratively. Just because you can you can gather requirements today doesn't mean that's gonna, you know, describe building incrementally off of that, having cross functional teams, the designers, the engineers, the product managers working together. Product management product management instead of project management. Project management is important, but it's not the same thing as a product manager. So there there's there's some of the best practices we're trying to advocate for along with, digital services coalition.
And looking at it from, I guess, the the other perspective, the, I guess, from the government side who's maybe doing the procurement of services, are there any practices that y'all at USDS have been trying to cultivate and maybe spread, to other places?
Yes. So to back up a bit, just procurement, there's a lot that goes on, and I didn't really understand it at all before I joined US Digital Service, and I don't have a great understanding of it now. But in general, when the government looks to hire a contractor, has a has a project that they that they want, a contractor to to work on, there's a proposal process. The government describes the problem, and then contractors reply back with, you know, these giant reports of how they'll how they will approach the problem and, you know, what the solution will be. That's that makes sense. We've tweaked that a little bit at digital service. What we're what we've started doing is asking vendors to do small demos of their design ability, having things like design challenges, coding challenges, that kind of reflects the essence of the problem, maybe use, the tools that that are are relevant, come in and do it in person as part of the assessment. And that really gives a more accurate view of of a group's ability to be successful in the contract.
I've also gathered that you folks over at the United States Digital Service are hiring. Is that the case? What sort of roles are y'all looking for?
Brian, that's absolutely the case. So we're term limited. These are term limited positions. So we are constantly having people roll off. We need people constantly coming coming in, to to keep so we constantly are looking to have people come on board. So we are we need engineers, software engineers, designers, product managers, let's see, digital service procurement specialists, front office, recruiters, that's who we're hiring.
What sort of person tends to do well in the USDS environment? You know, what sort of person are you looking for in the hiring?
Yeah. So so, typically, for their, respective discipline, like software engineer or, a product manager, a mid to senior level experience, a baseline of of that hands on work as part of that same things go sideways, so that that that hands on experience. Also, you have to be a team player. This is something that we rigorously assess. You have to be an expert, yes, but that doesn't mean that you are going to be the subject matter expert. You need to know when to listen. Federal government is is way bigger than you. You are you are not going to make changes alone. You have to partner with civil servants, and empower them. So you need to to come in with that understanding. You also need to be willing to step up to lead, and also be okay with not leading. One other thing I would say is that you have to be committed to the mission because they are going to be frustrating at times, and you have to be committed. Keep keep the mission in mind and remember who you're working for.
And if some enterprising civ civic tech extraordinary out there listening to this is thinking to themselves, hey. That might be me. Where where should they go to apply?
Great question, Ryan. So we have a website, uscs.gov, and there's an apply page there. It's really, really just upload a reasonable up to date resume and send that in. Do not spend more more than five minutes on on that process as long as that resume, is is representative of what you're doing. USDS, sorry, usds.gov slash apply is is where you should do that.
As we draw the the conversation to a close here, we, as always on Civic Tech Chat, leave some space here for the guests to leave us with the thoughts they'd like us to depart this conversation with. So, Lisa, what will those concluding thoughts be for you?
So there there needs to be more technologists and government. It's been said many times before, but in 2020, it it remains the case. Through technologists, software engineers, designers, product managers, procurement experts, there needs to be more technologists in government. And you can make a real impact in civic tech if you consider the federal, state, city, and and county levels, like a local code for America brigade or state level digital service. New York New York State and Florida a state level digital service. Federal level, there's AT and F program at GSA. There's US Digital Service. That's that's where I am. And, yeah, US Digital Service. Find us online at uscs.gov and apply.
Lisa, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to join us here on Civic Tech Chat. I have no doubt that there are insights and and lessons learned from that you've granted for folks that they're gonna really appreciate, and I have no doubt that they've enjoyed our conversation. So, So, again, thank you so
much. Thank you, Ryan. I enjoyed this.
You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.
