48 Code for America with Amanda Renteria
We sit down with [Amanda Renteria](https://twitter.com/AmandaRenteria), the CEO of [Code for America](https://codeforamerica.org), an organization that seeks to improve the delivery of government services, whether through its programs or its nationwide volunteer network. We'll talk about the organization, their vision for it, a bit of public policy, and even how the organization is trying to weather the times we are living in.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Scientific American Mind](https://www.scientificamerican.com/mind-and-brain/)<br>- [The Future is Faster than You Think](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52290273-the-future-is-faster-than-you-think)<br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?
Sure. Well, first, thanks for having me here. Introduce myself. Well, let me start with what we do, which is Code for America, we believe government is the place to make change at scale, and we believe technology is one of the best levers to do so. And so we bring those things together to partner with government to make it better. Why did I end up here? You know, it it all really does start with where I grew up. I grew up in the Central Valley Of California. My parents were former farm workers. And I've had this incredible fortune to be able to, have I went to Stanford, Harvard Business School, served ten years in the senate, worked on a national as national political director on a presidential campaign. And so I've seen public service from all kinds of different angles, government from all kinds different angles. And I think at the end of the day, I am still that kid that grew up in small town rural America and wants to make it better. And so one of the beautiful things about Code for America is they've been doing this for the last decade, really using technology technology to be able to reach hard to reach communities like I grew up in. And so, it's awesome to bring it all together, not only my political and politics career, but now, to be able to put action, to work in the communities I grew up in.
You mentioned why a little bit for, like, the why you ended up where where you're at now. But I'd be curious if we kinda go down to, like, a broader level. Like, what would you say is your personal why? The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning to do all that you do.
As cheesy as it sounds, there's nothing more honorable than making a difference in people's lives. That's what we do. That's what public service is about, and that's what technology at Code for America is about. And I think there's a particular bend for me, which is, connecting people that aren't often connected, and being able to do that, especially at this time when people have to stay apart. How do we, again, bring the world, the country together? And I think we do that every single day at Code for America.
As you alluded to in your introduction, your background spans across government service, public policy, campaigning, and, even your own candidacy for public office. And now you're the CEO of a prominent civic tech organization. Can you talk to us a bit about that path that led you to where you are now?
Yeah. The the through thread. I mean, when you look at all the different places and things I've done, the through thread is really the work that I get to do in public service, the work that I get to do in helping to empower people. As as a matter of background, I really fell in love with it as a public school teacher. There's nothing quite like the front lines of trying to teach high school kids, many of whom don't necessarily wanna be in the classroom all day. But trying to really not only teach them for the real world out there, but at the same time trying to create a real world that's ready for them. And I think that that for me has been my path all along whether it's been in the senate for a decade building policies that really can see and help all people truly build, the kind of country nation we can be proud of, or running for office where, coming to this conclusion that we need all voices at the table. How can I help contribute in that way? And so, and and now we're actually doing the work and taking those lessons and trying to scale them all across the country, so that we have the kind of government that really does, treat people with dignity and respect no matter where you are and make sure that government works effectively at the same time. So it's it's pretty exciting to be able to put all of those different pieces together, especially at a time where the entire country is leaning into digital first, out of force, unfortunately. But a a change we all actually needed to make in order to live in this modernized world that we're in today.
And a question I have that is definitely not there, so they have content for the episode description. Is there any media, whether a podcast, book, periodical video, or some other such thing that you would recommend to folks out there listening to this? You mean besides this one?
So a couple of things I'll say. Kids news, I know that's really silly, but they really do a really fantastic five minute job of giving you what the you know, what happened in the world. So we listen to kids news every morning, and it's always a little bit hopeful and inspiration. It has some inspiration in there. So, that's one. You know, I've throughout my life have read or my adult life have read Scientific American Mind, partly because my husband happens to be in the brain science space. But it's fascinating, to think about how our brains work, how the mind works in general. So I always think it's a good space to be in. And then, the one that I'm currently reading is, the future is faster than you think. And the title alone gives you a sense of not just, why I'm reading it, being at Code for America, being leaning in on the front edge, but it is changing us and it has changed us and we don't even see it. And I think that we don't even see it is the part that I think we all need to be intentional about. What are the things we don't see that technology is doing? What are the communities we haven't seen that we should have seen? And so, making the the invisible visible is something I love and try and read about it if I can, because sometimes books get there faster than our eyes do.
Switching gears a bit, I I'd love to kinda dig into some stuff about, you're kinda taking over Code for America here. And I believe the announcement for that came out around, May 1. And, I imagine since then, you've spent a great deal of time getting to know the organization, its purpose, its members. As you thought about that, how do you see the organization's core why as we kinda maybe talk back at why again?
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We are such a beautiful mosaic of partly tech, partly public service, partly community empowerment, partly nonprofit. We definitely sit in sort of unicorn ville where we're trying to bring all these different pieces together with the entire intent to make sure that government can work for all people at the end of the day. And so part of what our goal, what our mission right now specifically is is how do we do that in a bigger way? We know that technology can make programs work better. We know that technology can actually have a respectful and dignified conversation with everyone no matter what community you're in. But how do we do that and how do we do it as at scale as fast as possible knowing our infrastructure is outdated or knowing that some systems were put into place to actually not be nice, but to, to harm folks or to or to redline folks or to divide us. And so, all of those are in play. And I think, Code for America has this unique role because we are such a unicorn to be able to try and translate different worlds and change the kind of conversation a government is is having with each individual. And that's our hope is that we can be in that space where we leverage technology, so that people trust government again, believe in government, can use it, and that it's actually meant for them, truly of and by the people.
Part of your answer there, you mentioned some of that nuance around, like, the purpose of policies that might exist and how you know, some of them may be even or there to cause harm to a degree. And I I think something you mentioned in the blog post you wrote as you were kind of taking the reins at CFA kinda touches on that on that a bit. The contents of it were weaved with an attention to point out the need for empathy in government. I believe you used the phrase build a government with heart. Yeah. As we sit here in these times and kinda those comments you just made previously, like, what what what does this phrase mean to you?
Yeah. It it means we have to see people where they are. We have to meet them where they are. It it doesn't mean that you govern from a high mountaintop down on the people. But it means you actually govern from within. And we see this so much in our systems in terms of, you know I'll give a good example, the social safety net, right, that's supposed to be there right now. I don't know if it when you go through that application process, you realize, how not inspiring it is. You know, what was your last job? Why did you, you know, why did you now end that job? Right? Like, I mean, just the questions that come in depending on what where you are taking that, where you're trying to apply for it. As opposed to just imagine that, okay, you know, we had a job loss, but on on Friday and on Monday, you get a text from your government saying, hey, I'm sorry about this. Here is the plan you'll be getting, you know, an unemployment works in this way. Here is where a check will be coming. Here is where your job opportunities in your area are available available. Here are some skills you can learn in the process. I mean, just something like that. That to me is actually a government that is not only helping you be empowered, but it's caring about you. It's recognizing that maybe the day after you should say, are you really unemployed or not? And that's kinda what people face today.
I agree. I I sometimes get the vibe that those questions you're referring to, but most make it seem like you have to hop over some sort of, like, moral judgment. Right. Just to get a service that just you know, you're you know, being a citizen of the state or municipality, like, you you're due that. Right? It it seems odd that you'd have to pass some moral judgment for that. Yeah. And and we talk a lot about this when it comes to, for instance, the earned income tax credit.
Right? Government has all this. Can 30 different states actually send you your form and say, is this correct? Right? And can you imagine? You you are like, okay. Here's your form. Is this right? Click here. If not, click there. Do you want a direct deposit in your account? Or how do you wanna do this? Or how do you wanna pay, you know, taxes due in that sense? I think there's an opportunity to do this right and do it well, not only through technology, but it also comes with trusting government. But in order to trust government, it has to work for you. It has to speak to you.
I imagine that you put considerable thought into what your vision is for for Code for America under your watch. And I imagine maybe we've touched on some things that relate to this. Would you be willing to share some of what's been on your mind relating to that, here with the listeners?
Yeah. You know, what's interesting is, any leader comes in and and they might have a vision that, you know, five year, ten year vision. What's interesting in the first five days, I quickly understood that we've gotta live for the moment. We've gotta make sure we are doing all we can right now. And so it's I I I I share that with you only to that I do I share my vision with the understanding of how important the right now, the here and now is for so many of the folks that we are serving, but also just for the people at Code for America. You know, as I entered the it's almost as though the spotlight was on what we do. Because all of a sudden immediately, you know, this world that we live in in terms of food stamps or EITC or even our brigade network that is out there, we we were trying to convince people to be to be digital first, to care about these social safety net programs. And then all of a sudden, in a week's time, we get, how can you do more of this? And what I will say is that Code for America, we have the heavy weight of knowing that the programs we do are truly helping people to survive. And at the same time, staff in and of itself is trying to figure out this new world we're in. And so, my my hope is that for the moment, we can do we are doing and can keep doing all we can to help people really survive this moment, but that we are maintaining our own sustainability. Because the the truth is we need code for America as we think about recovery in this moment. And so my vision it's interesting. My vision in some ways in the five to ten years hasn't changed, but the way in which we get there with our giving ourselves some grace and empathy while we do it is really important. But we we can be the organization right now that where there's this window of opportunity to lean into digital. We can help cities bring in digital in a way that bends that digital towards good, that bends that digital towards seeing everyone. Really, that bends that digital for being ready for the next pandemic or the next crisis. You know, I think I think we we give a lot of, real attention to how do we do this in a way that we come out of this better, that our government comes out of it more trusted, more capable, more able to help people reach their potential?
Something I I heard in your answer there was that that transition point between, convincing to then all of a sudden asking for more. Yeah. Could you talk a little bit about that, that that that place? Is that something that, like, is, hey. Like, we're we're getting their buy in. Are they just seeing it working somewhere? Can you talk a little about that? Yeah. So, apparently,
this was before I started when we would go and source projects and ideas for, for instance, integrated benefits, which means you'd you know, anyone be be able to apply and you'd be applying for all the different programs, not just one at a time, that a state has to offer. And so when we were first talking about that project, I think people, we were trying to say, no. No. No. You really can do this. We're trying to convince states and cities or counties that it was possible to do it in this integrated way. I think today, we get calls now at which are, hey, I know I need to do this in a digital way. I know I need to bring these programs together. How do we do that? And so just the fact that the tables have turned in that regard has changed the nature of our work because now it's like, how how can we juggle it all that's coming in? Or how can we group it together where we can help this set of states that are dealing with how to make sure their data is good or can speak or is not so siloed, for instance. And so that's now, the change of the work, which is it's coming at us. And so how do we most efficiently and effectively help governments move through this process, and be better at the back end?
Folks listening to the program may be aware that Coach for America engages with public services and communities in a couple of ways. There's a one side which is kinda more of the formal partnerships with state and local government and another which, you mentioned, I think, in a prior answer that Brigade Network. Those kind of volunteers in different in different places across the country. What role do you envision each of these functions having going forward?
Yeah. So our our program areas are simply expanding and scaling as we speak. Right? Unfortunately, more people are falling into food assistance or cash assistance needs. So and a lot of systems need to go digital. And so our programs are scaling, broadening, deepening. They're gonna keep going. Our brigade network has immediately jumped in with response. Right? So whether it's food mapping, for folks to try and figure out where can I go get food assistance in certain places, or whether it's asset mapping so communities know where they can go to get whatever they might need in their community? We're doing all of that work. I think the the really unique thing about CFA is not only are we deep in these programs, but we have eyes and ears in 85 brigades, 25,000 volunteers all across the country. And so we are seeing this at a national level from a very hyperlocal view. And we're actually seeing it from the inside of government too because of the programs we run. And so the the sort of bird's eye view is really helpful as we shape not only what work we wanna be in, but it helps us shape shape best practices that we can share across the country. And so it's it's the reason why Code for America is such a unique organization at this very moment in time where the window is open to to both changing inside government and changing nationwide how we think and do government work or civic tech work.
Your mention of having some perspective, both kind of within and without those institutions is kind of interesting. I I don't imagine there's a lot of organizations that have access to that. No. Could you talk a little bit about how that informs what y'all are doing? Yeah. Yeah. It takes a decade. Right? It takes a decade of,
building a volunteer network. It takes a decade of putting tech talent within government itself. And it takes a decade in learning about the programs, sitting with public servants who are administering these programs, sitting with clients who are using these programs. So it's it's been a journey to be where we are now. But where it all comes together is quite beautiful. I'll as an example, the earned income tax credit. All of a sudden, people used to go to volunteer sites. Right? And you would walk into volunteer site and get help. COVID happens. Nobody can walk in. In very short order, we we went through and brought a team together. How do you think about the tech tools that need to happen? Right? How do you build those partnerships with volunteer sites around the country, with community groups around the country to get the word out that this is how you do it, to bring people to an app that could do it for free? And then how do you bring in the volunteer capability, which is where our brigades came in. We had people who signed up to help people through a process, to answer questions. How does this relate to the stimulus? How do I sign this form? How do I and so we put everyone on a training program, and it was beautiful. You now could fill out a free, a free if you're making 66 care less, a free application with the chat function, with a volunteer help call if you needed in order to get you through this form and get the cash that's really yours. So I hope we can find more of those kinds of opportunities, not just in crisis, but on a going forward basis.
I actually had a question here about collaboration between these two, but it sounds like maybe the example you're using might be kind of that model you're looking at for, like, how can the programs and brigades collaborate together effectively. Is that is that is that so? That's one of the ways. That's right.
I I think there's such opportunity here. Again, our brigade network is the eyes and ears of what's happening in communities all across the country, and there's such a rich understanding of what is happening particularly right now. This the you know, so much of what people are experiencing in this is hyperlocal. Right? Because COVID, is what's happening in your neighborhood. And, the ability to kind of pull that out and learn from it and share it across, also just really the opportunity to come together for, like, national, National Day of Civic Hacking to go, okay. What is happening around the country on safety net? How does it work? And how do we pull out how best we can do this? That kind of opportunity, we wanna take advantage of. I'll also say another, which is we've got to start thinking, if we wanna bring our services to scale, we have to start thinking about what kind of policy changes need to happen. And so there's a real opportunity here to have a lot of our brigades speak to the policy, that we need in order to do this kind of work, better.
In the past, Code for America has been involved a bit on the policy advocacy side of things. An example of this recently was playing a role in promoting the digital service act, which, for context for the listeners, this was a bill that was introduced last year by senator Harris with the intent to empower state and local governments to form digital services teams. As we look ahead, what kind of role do you see CFA having in this public policy space?
We've got to be at the table, if we really wanna make change at scale. When that's at the table in policy conversations, at the table in administrative burden conversations, at the table at tech conversations, we know this. And I think what's happened over the last four months is we have now seen, and actually been a part of bringing down, barriers, policy barriers really, in order to get resources out to people. And so even in the short window of time, we've seen temporary policy changes to address the current situation, and we can use that to say, no. This needs to be permanent. And, actually, we can offer the pilot the experiment to say, listen. We did this for the last month, and here were the outcomes. It was better in this way. We can also see the opposite. Right? Which is, oh, wait. We went a little bit too far there. And so the opportunity to really step into that conversation, I think, is imperative for Code for America because of the window we see. We see that last mile. We see how if you move one lever, it could mean a 100 more kids are fed. Right? We see that lever. If you move this, how many more people we can make a dent in the 12,000,000 EITC gap that people are not getting money deserved to them. Right? That is that is their tax refunds. And so, those levers are really important for us to be able to weigh in on largely because there's not really any other nationwide organization that sees that level of detail. That tech allows us to see that level of detail of what policy changes can bring out the kind of outcomes that we all like to see in this country.
Yeah. I I think what you're describing, kinda buys wealth a lot of, some of the other things Good for America has said about policy. I think you used the the term, like, delivery driven government, where it's, like, trying to use, like, those human centered design things in policy making. That's right. I love it, Ryan. I love that you know, human centered design. We have been talking about that a lot. For listeners who are as tech oriented, we do call it, like, putting people
first, because that's essentially what it is. It's it's a fancy way of saying that. But we wanna make sure that when you think about, government policy, that you're not thinking about it from, you know, senators that I used to work for who are coming up with ideas to write them down, but you're actually thinking about it from the person who's going to use that service. And this comes from somebody who fought like heck to get certain policies in. Right? We you fight so hard to say we need that program because it's gonna really help people. And then what? Right? And I think the feedback loop here is so important. I wish I could go back to my earlier self and go, yeah, you know that thing you're fighting for? Let me tell you how it actually gets rolled out. I I'd I'd like to think I'd be a better, adviser if I knew those kinds of things. And so now I'm doing my best, to really try and capture that and really try and give visible or tangible examples of what it means to run a program well. And what we know at Code for America for the last ten years is it has to start with sitting, next to that person, that is filling out that application. I'll give you I'll give you a quick story, which is before joining senator Stabenow's team, I went to she had me go to the, the auto show. Right? The Detroit auto show. And I think about that so often because government services should be that way. Before anyone writes a policy, they should go and actually apply to that program and see what it's like, what it feels like. And I think we'd have better policy if we did that.
I I imagine with what you're saying, there's probably plenty of space for some partnership and coaching to happen, whether it's at agencies or in offices that are kinda those that help determine policy. Is is that something you see there being space to attempt to do? And if so, what what what do you think that would look like? Yeah. It it's it's really important to do it.
My if I could just paint the vision, I would love for us, to actually lead tours with, sitting with public servants, sitting with clients who are using the services. You know, there used to be this thing on the hill called Codels where you would go visit a country. You would, go visit, let's say, a factory and learn about advanced manufacturing, for instance. But I'd really like to take folks on a tour of applying for the programs we have. Right? I'd like to take people on a tour sitting next to the case worker who's trying to figure out how to make sure that the programs that were passed actually get implemented on the front on the front lines. Because I think that understanding, you know, if you're really trying to make a difference, sitting in someone else's shoes or in their seat just does make you better. And so, that's what we do at Code for America. So to be able to unfortunately, right now, we're in COVID, but to be able to take elected officials or policy writers, chiefs of staff, etcetera, on these tours with us to do it, to go to the sites, makes a huge difference.
I think something I'm hearing there is that that kinda ties back. So he said at the very beginning of our episode where we're talking about empathy, because you really can't have empathy for someone if you don't ever have any exposure to somebody like them. Right? If you don't have exposure to these processes, it's probably hard to empathize with someone struggling.
Yeah. I mean, it's harder. It it's certainly harder to do it. I think the other piece is I think we'd like to think our services work better. Any public servant doesn't want to believe that, the room that you go into isn't quite working or the program is just a pile of papers. Right? And so some of it is, you know, trusting your eyes. Right? And and when you're there on the ground and you see it and you feel it and, you know, the the air conditioner doesn't work in the community center because it's in a low income area. And so guess what? Nobody comes in during the day. And so maybe we need to extend our hours in a different way. You know, it just gives you that context of living in someone else's shoes that really need the services that government is trying to provide. And I think that's the part that you can't really do via Zoom or you can't do from Washington DC, trying to understand what it's like in rural America?
This year has been a time that's brought a lot for a lot of folks to face. Whether we're talking about the pandemic, our society struggling with its own systemic racism, or folks just trying to stay afloat in a time where there's just a lot more kinda latent stress around them. As someone who's, leading an organization like CFA, how are you and how is the organization kind of adapting and responding to the plethora of challenges that are just out there?
It it's something I it's the thing I think about most. Right? How is our team? How is our organization doing? And all I know is being in this box altogether. We are we do what we do with Code for America. We try certain things out and then we iterate. And we do surveys and find out how people are and we ask. And so what I'll say, we did a summer shutdown. Never had done that before, but we thought if we could just let everybody out, and so you're not gonna get your emailing pile up, it might actually feel like you can disconnect. And what I will say is what we learned is people came back and everyone started talking about the simple things that gave them pleasures. We do a no meeting Thursdays. We're pretty heavy meeting organization and we're like, how do we how do we change this? And so we're trying out a no meeting Thursdays. You know, and then I think the other piece is we try and check-in often. You know, there's nothing there's nothing, that, you know, that makes a bigger difference than someone saying, how you doing? Right? Like, things okay. And being okay would not be okay. And so we have that honesty internally. You know, externally, what's really interesting for us is that we do we sense we sense that people not only need these services that we provide now, but we know it's coming even more. We can see the economic fundamentals. We can see the numbers of folks on unemployment, and we're trying to adjust to be ready for, well, not only to be ready in real time, being ready for what's coming at us. Right? Food stamps are up, you know, four times. Right? 10 times. We're seeing those spikes and we're not seeing them level off. And so how do we keep that as as we go forward? But I will say this, there is not a more dedicated group of people who believe in the work that we do, who wanna help, to help in a new way using technology as that lever. And I gotta say, on a day to day basis, we try and remain really hopeful about the work that we're doing because we do have this window of opportunity to perhaps shape it in a way that does make it easier in the future. Maybe not right now for people, but in the future, we could have that stronger social safety net so people aren't falling so hard. And in fact, we can just keep people up as they as they bounce back up. So that's the hopeful piece of it all. You mentioned that summer shutdown.
For folks that are listening to that and maybe perking up and, oh, like, what's what's that all about? Could you tell us a little bit more about, like, what, what did that entail?
Yeah. It it it entails really everybody not, being done. So we went Thursday, Friday, of course, that's Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. So we had just everyone off of email. No one working. And we had a pretty good informal rule of not sending an email or Slack, like, nothing. And we made it I mean, we made it a thing. Right? We said this is gonna be summer shutdown. This is what it is. Some people attach some of their, their paid time off to it, either on the front end or the back end. But, you know, and some of these things, you don't realize how well they're gonna go because we'd already given people paid time off however you wanna use it. Right? So you can use these days for here or there. But what we quickly learned is, actually, it doesn't really matter because your email just keeps piling up. So we said, okay, let's stop that. And let's just take a day or let's take three days. And it really I mean, even for me, it was really quite beautiful to just be able to disconnect and not be apologetic for it. Right? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't get to that or nope. We took a summer shutdown and we meant it. And I think that's one of the things as a leader, that we've gotta be I'm trying to be really careful about. When I say we're off, we're really off. And trying to role model that as much as my motor keeps going, trying to really role model that as much as possible.
Another thing in there that I I imagine is a a challenge you've had to deal with is that I imagine, like, some of the partners they're with maybe aren't quite as used to this new doing everything over webcams and audio world that maybe as as well as Code for America may have been through through some of its own experiences. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like to kinda coach and and work with folks that maybe are less inclined to it?
Yeah. You know, I think, the good news is we're all learning together. It was it was much harder in in digital first in general on anything. It's much harder when you're first trying to convince people that, no, no, no, really you'll like it better. Instead, you know, it is a little bit like it's gonna be okay. So the conversation goes from, you know, you like it better to really it's gonna be okay and going through it together. But I think there's an honesty that we're all going through right now, which is all of our lives are upended. So we have a commonality here to start off with. Nobody knows the answers, but we're gonna make our way together on the Zoom call when we have tech difficulties and be really, really at peace with that. We we try and model that, you know, and so we do have sometimes a kid will pop on the call or your Zoom does go out, and it just it just does happen. One of the things I'm hopeful about is that we're seeing, partners and clients become almost comfortable with mistakes now and then. And at Code for America, that is kind of our learning lessons. Right? We do retros, which means we do a whole feedback conversation on things. That's not something that happens in policy and government. You know, you rarely go, was that policy really good or not? Right? Usually, it's like, oh, we got that wrong. Let's fix it. But it's not really like, no. No. No. Let's step back. How was our process? Did it work? What did we learn? And then how do we implement something new? And so just doing that, you know, with others in this iterative process, what I have found is that people are more willing to do it now, but they're also more willing to kind of talk about it afterwards and say what we could have done better. And that's huge.
Amanda, I wanna thank you again for for taking the time out of your day to join us here on the podcast. As for as is tradition with every episode, we kinda have some space that's meant to be, like, including thoughts or, like, things you would like folks to leave this conversation thinking about. What would that be for you and this chat we've had today?
So I think technology in general is gonna affect, every piece of our environment. It already has in ways seen and unseen. And I think it is incumbent on all of us, because we all use it, to pull that tech in a way that either tech for good or tech for empowering others. I think that's all of us together trying to do it. And so for anyone that's out there that feels disconnected from civic tech or disconnected from government, whether you feel disconnect from the civic part or the tech part, you're part of one or the other. And the idea is we bring it together, but we only bring it together with everyone really engaging, in their own way to use it for good. And so that's why I was so excited to do this podcast with you because I think this this conversation is incredibly important and, obviously, timing. The timing of this is really important right now when we're all learning to do things differently, to try and connect, and to try and make this country a better place. So thank you so much for having me on. Thanks for coming on and talking with us.
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