52 Digital Maturity Indicator
[Lara Stephenson](https://twitter.com/Lara_makes) of Code for Australia joins us to talk about the Digital Maturity Indicator, a model which seeks to help organizations measure, benchmark, and improve the way they use digital technologies.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Digital Maturity Indicator](https://codeforaustralia.org/digital-maturity-indicator/)<br>- [Public Digital HQ](https://twitter.com/PublicDigitalHQ)<br>- [Code for Australia Blog](https://blog.codeforaustralia.org/)<br>- [Code for All Blog](https://medium.com/code-for-all)<br>- [Dumbo Feather Magazine](https://www.dumbofeather.com/)<br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a podcast about the civic technology movement. We seek to harness the power technology has to improve the delivery of public services to people everywhere. Lara, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Thank you for having me. My name's Lara Stevenson,
and I'm based near Melbourne in Australia. I'm a designer with my own company, Social Good Outpost, and I'm a researcher with Code for Australia, both based here. I spend most of my time doing web and graphic design, branding, and communications and, also jumped into research last year, starting with the digital maturity indicator with Code for Australia.
What would you say is your personal why? You know, that thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning
and do what you do. I'm really passionate about social enterprise, which is businesses that make a profit to solve a world problem or a social problem or an environmental problem. And civic tech actually is also very similar. My interest in that in that it's really people powered and people driven. And to me, getting into civic tech was about, about empowering people or being the one that helps connect people to government directly without any kind of middle agencies to muddle that message up. I believe in creating, like, social change, working towards something for good.
As you mentioned, you're now a a researcher and a creative director. I believe you mentioned with your own organization and, doing research with Code for Australia. What sort of path did you go on to wind up in this position where you're doing both of those roles?
Yeah. I started as a fellow at Code for Australia, a few years back. I had heard about Code for Australia and was very inspired by their mission. A few years before, I was a fellow even. I was a designer throughout all that time, and so I joined Code for Australia for a six month fellowship, which is the traditional length as the service designer in the team, and that was my first taste of working in design in government, or service design area. And at the same time, my sister and I were launching company, Social Good Outpost. So we brought together our knowledge and design and also, the nonprofit sector and social, social enterprise and social change and brought our skills together and started a company around about the same time I was a fellow. So it's kind of it it's really grown from there. The the fellowship was a really big acceleration into learning new skills, and my company has been a huge acceleration with learning how to manage a company as well as be a designer. And then just through wanting to stay in the orbit of code for Australia, I came across the opportunity to work on the digital maturity indicator in 2019 and, continued working on that ever since.
As a follow-up there, what's something that you would say has been a bit of a challenge as you went from being someone focused very much on, like, the practice, the practitioner part of your profession to now having to also consider, you know, your your own business and the strategy, and all of that that kinda goes into play with that sort of endeavor?
Yeah. The strategy is a big part, and it's it's really important, but you have to dedicate time to it and also help. I I got assistance from, business coaches and my partner, and we took some time off this year when COVID hit and we weren't sure what was happening. And and really we did a couple of solid weeks of strategy. And it's some a skill that I'm developing, and a skill that, yeah, you definitely have to bring in a strategic lens for what you're doing and why you're doing who you're doing it for. It's like the meta design rather than just the design for clients and all of those projects and but I think it's a great practice because that's that's a hugely, applicable skill in in all areas particularly, also advising government on things, thinking strategically.
Are there any bits of media, whether a podcast, video, print, or something else entirely that you'd recommend to folks listening?
Yes. There is, Public Digital HQ on Twitter. They have an excellent newsletter full of really, really interesting things to read about, civic tech, but also other digital topics. And, I'd be remiss to say, to not mention the Code for Australia blog, which is on Medium, and also code for all which have a great blog on on civic tech. Things that are not related to civic tech that I really enjoy is the Dumbo Feather, magazine, which is an Australian magazine all about people making making life better and making doing good through business and changing the way people think about things. I really enjoy that.
Let's switch gears a bit and start talking about this digital maturity indicator, which is kind of our our main topic today. To start us off, could you describe the program a bit at a high level and and tell us what its why is?
So the digital maturity indicator is a tool to help organizations measure, benchmark, and improve their digital maturity across six key areas. The DMI is a partnership with the Harvard Kennedy School of Government that leverages research conducted around the world and applies it to an Australian context. Basically, at Code for Australia, we converted it from that initial model to the Australian model, to measure government agencies' current levels of digital maturity, with a view to co design and prioritize actions to help that maturity improve over time. And it's all about helping the public service to be more digital, connected, communicative, and effective.
So you've talked a bit about what the digital maturity indicator or DMI is and, like, what it's about. But could you tell us a bit about its why? You know, like, why is it it's why for existence, essentially.
It helps government organizations get alignment and clarity on where they're at now in terms of their digital maturity. It also we're able to work with your organizational strategy as well. So we can use two models at once and measure upon both models a little bit and highlight which areas of your model, our recommendations are touching on as well as which areas of our model. So we help you to know, yeah, where you are and where to begin in in your digital transformation journey or your digital maturity journey. We also it's also there to help help share the knowledge of how to have the biggest influence and grow from that baseline measurement. It's not just a one off snapshot. It's not a densely worded report like you might get from a large consultant. It's something that's very practical and actionable, clearly shows your strengths, helps to mirror back any any barriers that that the agency is facing, and also shows recommendations. So we really have a goal that we want to support long term change and impact, not just one report, outcome. And another really strong part is that it's practitioner led. So the researchers, have worked in government and digital. Like, we are designers or we are researchers working in those areas. We're not we're not purely, say, business consultants. So we're coming at it from a very much we do this day to day. We know how these things work so we can help support those agencies. Those would be the big strengths of of the DMI, and, and it its big overarching goal is for a more, connected, effective government.
You mentioned going from that the context of the original model and then trying to translate that into something that made sense for for there in Australia. Can you talk a bit about, like, what are what are what sorts of adjustments did Jell end up having to take a look at making in that translation?
Yeah. We that that model assumed that each area in government, each agency had its own digital services unit, which would be amazing. But we find that the ones that we have worked with, they basically have a couple of people in scattered in different roles who take care of digital, but it's not which could be something to do with IT. It could be, communications and media, and it could also be, like, staff skills and training. So it's it's scattered across each individual agency. So be it, you know, transport or whatever. It's it's more like scattered and not about that one agency. So we had to change the way we phrased, basically the the measurements and the questions so that we looked at it as a more more holistic across the agency and less about one unit spreading the good the the good practices out across the agency. It's it's kind of a model that looks from everybody, both top down and grassroots level up. Now that was the main change and maybe a couple of wordings to help people here adapt to it because there were different ways people refer to things like human centered design or user centered design or co design, but it really keeps the spirit of the initial model.
From what I could see in the materials, the program appears to focus on six areas, political environment, institutional capacity, delivery capability, skills and hiring, user centered design, and cross government platforms. I imagine from that point, there was a lot of work in figuring out how to map what's really out there at an agency to those sorts of concepts. How did you all go about that step from the conceptual to something where you could actually conduct research on?
Yeah. We we looked at the the marking matrix. So each of those six areas has a matrix where it's from, low digital maturity, medium, high, all the way to advanced state. And we formulated questions that asked that asked things in those topics so that we could see were they at low or had they reached medium or high or were they somewhere else even more advanced. So that was tricky, but we really workshopped it, myself and Alex, whom who made the questions in the beginning. We came up with questions based on our knowledge of government here in Australia, our knowledge of digital, and also deciphering that initial matrix. So it it would be asking if people had if there was, like, a a clear talent pipeline, for instance. So we would ask questions about, like, how do you how do you get new staff? Do you have troubles, finding the right people for the jobs? Questions about people coming into the organization and leaving the organization and basically inferring from a a range of questions if there was a good talent pipeline. And sometimes we find out, clearly the answer, and other times we have to read into the the story. It was complex, but we've now worked out some questions and tried and tested them and know that they give us the the answers that we need.
In looking at a blog post you wrote about findings and recommendations from the model, there was an early bullet in that post that stood out to me. You mentioned that there isn't always a shared language and that folks can sometimes have very different understandings of terms that we would consider somewhat common. Like, even just the word digital, for example, folks different types of imagery to different folks. Can you talk a bit about the that challenge of shared language that that y'all ran into?
Yeah. Definitely. When I said that story, I was thinking of a recent engagement where we asked people their understanding of digital, and we didn't want to tell them what what we thought digital was. And we got a lot of, a lot of frustration and a lot of different answers. Like, basically, could we just tell them what did digital mean? And and would it be for anything from IT and AI to just, you know, working on a computer? And and yet the concept as we're using it is even bigger than that. So, yeah, basically, shared terms are a key recommendation that we were like. And what we have said is even make your own. Make your own up. So say you're talking digital in the organization, come together and agree that digital means the way that you communicate with each other. For example, it also includes platforms, which are like computer programs, but it might also include how you work such as, agile or project management ways of working. I mean, digital is huge, but there's other topics like, even human centered design, getting, getting the wording that people like. Some people have had a bad experience with someone who's tried to force a new way of working on them and then there's sensitivities and sometimes you're dealing with people in an agency who have been there a really long time and have really good proven project management, but it's not it's not the new form of project management. It's not agile. It's not even waterfall. Like, it's something it's something else. So it's it's a bit about bringing the people who have tried and tested ways of working together with people who want to try new things. And we always recommend definitely get clear on definitions, but co design those definitions so that everybody feels they've been brought along, and can agree on them and and know what they mean.
On a similar theme of relationships, I noticed that in some of the materials that in your in your findings that you had spotted that there were challenges. The agencies we'd run into around knowledge transfer as they worked with, contractors in the in that contractor agency relationship. Were there any common patterns that you found that seem to be contributing to that difficulty in having that happen?
Yeah. To begin with, not planning at the end, not factoring it in. So the engagement with the contractor, basically uses a certain amount of budget and time, and all of that budget and time is accounted for without any knowledge transfer or passing on of skills or bringing people along even to sit and watch. So what what we suggest is to bring people contractors into the team, but maybe alter the contract to say part of the work will include, like, a show and tell of what you're doing or training someone someone at the end, like, how to handing over the software or the materials and how to use it or letting someone shadow you so that they can learn. And also from the the government agency staff point of view to be prepared to or like welcome to ask questions of that contractor and set up set up an expectation that they're there to help and that to take advantage of that help and learn from it as you go. I mean, it's just that it hasn't been set up and it's not it's not clear that you can learn from the contractor because they're, like, busy, they're expensive, they're taking time, you don't wanna waste time and budget. But it's actually an excellent opportunity to use that that person's skills and knowledge to bring that into the agency, which actually leads to can lead to needing less, specialized contractor help in the future and, can also help bring everybody on the team along with the journey even if that's not their job to know those skills. It helps upskill people.
Oh, that that's interesting. I I like that mention of making it part of the contract that that's a requirement because I suspect otherwise, there wouldn't really be an incentive, on the part of the contractor necessarily to go out and do that. While while I've heard from folks that are in consulting, like like like, the best end is one where you're not needed anymore. Yes. I suspect, like, the reality of the business decision of things is maybe that incentive isn't there unless it's, like, part of the thing. Otherwise, like, you would want another contract. So it would actually perhaps be in your favor to not do the knowledge transfer. Do you so that seems like a good suggestion to avoid that trap.
Yeah. Setting up everybody to to know that this is the expectation and to know that interrupting the person to ask a question or, that yeah. You do have to provide a bit of handover support. We feel that it would be a simple a good entry step to just put that in the contract, set people up the the expectation at the beginning.
Another thing that y'all talk about in the materials for this that popped out to me was the mention of the importance of political and executive support for an initiative to be successful. What sort of impact does this or to be successful, what sort of impact does this or its absence have?
Yeah. That's very important. So we've, the way we think about it is political support is the the politicians who can issue directives and just change utterly change the direction of an agency, and the executive is the the public servant people who are, making making decisions and supporting or initiating programs. So, I mean, it can really allow something to happen if you have the political and the executive lined up, and then you say, this is what we're doing. It's in line with, say, a premier's priority, which the premiers are the leaders of the states here. And so, if it's a premier's priority, you've got that government backing and you've got a budget, and the department must work on it. And then if the executives support that and help enable that through, making decisions and, allowing that those programs to roll out and and providing that budget and the networks needed, it can make something really happen. So I suppose when you don't have that or when you did have political support and then the the government changes and there's a new, say, a new premier or a new a new minister, you know, even if you're halfway through a project, they might say, oh, no. We must focus on this this new very important pressing thing and your project can get sidelined or slowed down or starved of resources or the other thing. There's a there's a limited amount of staff most of the time and, they just have to pivot to the new topic. So even if that, project that they were on is, still supported in principle, if there's something else that comes in over top of it, it just gets, overtaken. So similar, you know, you can go a long way with grassroots support, but without executive support, it's very hard to propagate that, to share across agencies or to propagate all throughout the organization. Although you can have we've seen very successful pockets like a little a little work area doing things in a new way, like doing all human centered design or agile work or whatever in excellent way. But that executive support is what brings it out of that small pocket and across the agency, if that makes sense.
It does. I I think something I'm hearing there is that there's some work there in order to attempt to get that buy in, whether it's like a new administrator coming in or whether it's a practice a project is starting up with existing structure. But there's that moment when you have the chance, I guess, to to get that buy in. And, when when agencies are kinda hitting that threshold, whether they're with the digital services team, I guess, or not, are there any are there any, like, tips or practices that you all have seen that tend to work well in that situation?
Well, what we have seen is that when you can share a story of success or a successful case study that's a bit like what you want to do, say another agency or department has done it or you've done a little pilot or something, when you can share something that is a success to those people that are decision makers, that's a really good a really good way to show that your project has legs. That's that's a big one. Also, bringing bringing people along. If if you're starting out a project and you need, you know, sign off to make it fully fledged and really big, but you can do a little bit to begin with if you're able to invite decision makers into this project as it's being made. So show them how it's developing even though it's not perfect. Bring people in, allow them to ask questions. Basically expose what you're doing to, you know, the people that need to sign off on it and make decisions, bring them into that, bring them into that journey, I think that's quite powerful. It it basically we would call it working in the open. And we would really be suggesting, yes, try and find stories, successful stories of other people who've done it. Maybe invite another team in that did something that you really admire and you want to do. It's all about that cross communication, cross pollination and, showing that the idea is is, something that has worked before, and that's that's very powerful together.
Somewhat related to what we were talking about a couple questions back with knowledge transfer, I imagine, in your findings that there was something if we go, like, a level deeper and start to talk about things like capacity building, where you're trying to build those skills in an agency through whether that's, like, pair of training, mentorship, education, to folks that have that interest, whether it's in digital skills, literacy, or something like human centered design. Can you talk a bit about, suggestions y'all had around that as far as, like, trying to build capacity in those types of organizations?
Yeah. We saw this done really well with some lunchtime learning sessions so that people were invited to come and learn something like human centered design principles during, lunch breaks. Like, that's that's an optional thing, but it was attended really well. We also have seen great success and, recommended shadowing. So if, say, to build empathy with a customer service person and, citizens, say you do, a user research trip into into, like, say, a customer service center or something and bring that person in as as kind of like a research shadow to observe behavior and kind of build empathy and and see what that process looks like from the outside, so that they can help, you know, like, help serve the customer or or the citizens better, but also understand how their job contributes to the overall picture. So, yeah, like shadowing is good and those lunchtime learnings are good. We also have seen great success with, like I said, like, bringing people into projects as they go. So maybe you're working on a new, software platform, for for day to day stuff, but bring bring those people in as it's being made even if it's not perfect, even if it's still a sketch or, like, ideas. Bring people in from the beginning so that you can get them to ask questions and, you know, it takes a little bit of of time and conscious effort, but this is how people learn even before the software's there. They can kind of feel part of it and learn how it's going and and also learn new ways of working together, in in an informal way. But I suppose the new digital ways of working together are very much about open communication and allowing people into the process and designing to designing solutions that fix the problem. I think this is this is so important, because so many times you design a solution that doesn't even touch the problem. So it builds skills and builds skills in so many areas both in the building, like software development, but also in that ways of working so people get more used to working in that collaborative way. And that's that's the big goal for government so that government can communicate with itself. It's so big, but it has such trouble doing that.
One thing I heard in there that I I think is interesting is that what so it sounds like when you when you bring somebody in early like that into the process, it maybe changes that I that I'd the dynamic from, like, hey. There's this team building something for me. If you're like, hey. Like, no. I am I'm part of the team. Like, we're doing this thing to improve x, y, or z. Is is that what you see as kind of the the dynamic shift?
Yes. That is what we see. We also see that people feel, they feel like they have more ownership over it. They feel like they've, have been thought about in that process. And in the, you know, in the best case that they also know how to take it over and own it afterwards. So sometimes you get the IT team making you some software, but they're not really, then they just give it to you. Or if it's contracted, they just give it to you. And we've also seen where there haven't been staff resources like budget for the staff to manage it once it's launched. So if you've brought everyone along for the journey, they both know how to operate it. They they know in advance, oh, hang on. We need five more staff to run this program than we currently have because this is adding, adding something new into our mix. Yeah. It it does help people plan for the future. And we also I would also say that it's, a sensible use of of budget, like less risky even though things seem slower. You're designing the right thing. And and then that that can definitely lead to more successful buy in for future projects and more successful projects. So I think it it really buoys the whole mood of the team from the people paying for the projects like the executive level decision makers and also, the team who the project is created for.
As you think about this research, was there anything about it that surprised you that that sticks out to you?
From first looking at the, digital maturity matrix and seeing the depth, like, the detail in it, I suppose what surprises me at the end is that when we hand over some of our recommendations, we are able to put them into steps so that we can say so if you do this, which is often we have this diagram which I can share, which has skills and hiring at the center of these circles. So we found that if you do a couple of changes in that skills and hiring category, they can really flow on to the bigger circle. So small changes that you could do next week can set you up for a big change in six months rather than trying to tackle that big change and then being like, it takes so long. But we have found that we can put things into what we feel as what I'd call small enabling steps, very concrete, very practical, there's things like bringing people along for the journey, like we've been talking about and, allowing people to learn new skills and helping people feel supported. And when you start with the people like that, all of a sudden people have more trust and ability to do this kind of cross government communications and and deliver projects on budget, or, successfully solve the right problems. So I would say, yeah, that that's the most surprising thing. Something so difficult and something so dense, and when you're in sometimes in the middle of a problem, it's so hard to see the way out. You can get out there with some really small actionable steps that build on each other and grow.
Were there any unique challenges that y'all ran in ran into as you were working with agencies on this model?
Yeah. Everybody every agency we work with is at a different level in terms of, say, their, IT systems or their culture or their resistance or welcoming of change or how fixed in place things are. So each each engagement we do, we really we really talk to people and try and understand the background and where this agency is at so that we can give the right recommendations so that we're not pushing pushing people to use even to use words that they're not comfortable with. Like, human centered design is sometimes a trigger word. You know? So it's about understanding, and then I suppose that is part of research and design. It's about really understanding the problem or not the problem, but the agency and their concerns first. And I suppose from there, if if we were to call it a challenge, it would it would be making sure that we deliver the, recommendations that suit them. So whether that is that they, have this really, really great culture that's ready to move into digital. You would think, yes, everybody's ready to move, in terms of mindset and open to change. They just don't know what's possible or their IT systems are ancient. So in that situation, it's a lot different to a new agency or a kind of new minded agency that has good technology, but a couple of people who are like, nope, not, not, not doing this new way of working. So yeah, it it's finding the right way to talk to people and bring them forwards. But there's always a way. There's always something you can say to help wherever that agency is at because it's, I mean, those six areas are huge. You can you can get in at some angle that helps people, rather than force something that people aren't ready for.
I imagine with the custom nature of this and the fact that you're it sounds like you're doing a bit of a deep dive into, like, the, like, the ethos of an agency, like, to their culture or to things that perhaps, like, findings might lead you to needing to have difficult conversations with folks there about things. Maybe they believe things are a certain way, turns out they're not. How how have you all approached those sorts of hard conversations and other tips for folks that might have to do, I guess, a similar thing?
We've been very much in that role of a researcher for a lot of it. So we are asking the questions in a really neutral way and allowing people to tell them tell us what whatever they want to say. And we've we've taken a lot of guidance from the project sponsor, so so our project, the the government sponsor who calls us in. So a lot of guidance from them to about what the goals are, what what they would see as a success to come out of this. And whether that's to confirm what they think, but through research or whether that's like, oh, we don't know what to do. Please come and help us, or or any other, other requests. And in the end, we deliver our those hard conversations or those those difficult topics. We try to deliver them in a way that's very supportive and there's a lot to say that's positive as well. We always say, you know, these are the successes on on us. So we're in a subtopic like maybe that, like staff training or mentorship. So we're in a subtopic and we're able to always say some kind of successes and some kind of and then we we mention any barriers that they might be having in that area and then our recommendations. So we always we always temper it and show that it's not just a barrier, that always there's something good happening. And then in the in our workshops that we run at the end to help prioritize which actions that agency wants to take first, everybody's very professional and accommodating even though we probably say some some hard things, even though we sometimes use, quotes from people that don't that but people are used to people are used to reading, staff surveys and the kind of things that staff might say. So it's still really, really insightful and insightful and useful, and everybody's being very professional at not being, upset by it. So I would just say really put it in context. It's not it's not ever a 100% bad. Show what's happening that's good and also offer really constructive recommendations if if possible.
If I were to have you imagine the future for this program for a moment, what would you say that you'd like to see to happen over the short term with it as well as the long term as you consider, you know, the the question of, like, what's next? In the short term, we'd love to have more agencies
in in Australia in our context, from different states come in and do get that bench line, benchmark measurement of their digital maturity. So that's we run the program and have interviews and things, and and out of that comes a measurement. So it could be like and it it's measured across those six areas, so it's a bit like a spider chart. And you can see where you're doing better in and maybe where you need more assistance in, and it it measures them on that low, medium, high future state, graph. So so we can get a visual picture snapshot of where they are now. We'd love for more agencies to come in and get that benchmark, which also includes, like, first steps and recommendations to go from here. And then we'd also love it if they would do a yearly check-in to see where they're coming so that can you know, you can really see is is my the actions I'm taking working. What we've heard from people is that when they are able to see data about what they've done and how they've come where they've come from and how much improvements or or not improvements they've made, it's a huge motivator. And when you don't have that, you just kind of operate and you're like, I'll press this button or I'll do this thing. I guess I should do it again, but you don't know if it's making any effect. So we would love repeated benchmarks, maybe before and after big projects as well. So maybe it could be at a six month interval. And in the long term, we really want to see that people that government agencies are able to share the results with each other and compare with each other and keep communicating. And this is what it's all about, encouraging more sharing. It's not it's not this one thing that's private and secret to them. This is all about learning together. So to have obviously, we would love to keep running things with more and more departments and have these kind of statewide measurement, benchmarks as well, not just the agencies, the the different departments within that state. And, again, that's not a competition either, but it's to help people see where they're at. Are they, leading their state? Are they able to maybe share some of their knowledge? Or if they're not leading in the digital maturity in their state, would they be able to come and do some drop in learning sessions with some of the other ones? It's all about sharing ways that work for more efficient, effective government. It's all winners. And another thing I want to mention is that Code for America took our model and adapted it again. So we'd love to do more of that in the network. So we would love other other other code for organisations or other people working in, civic tech to be able to look at our model, which we're happy to share elements of and, build it from there in their countries too. So we're always open to, share knowledge like that.
Speaking of sharing, let's say there's someone out there listening to this, and they're now thinking themselves like, wow. Like, hearing all of this, I would like to learn more, or I'd like to try this in my agency. So whether it's, like, someone at an agency there in Australia or maybe someone even internationally out in our audience that just wants to learn more about your approach. What should they do to, to satisfy those needs?
Yeah. Go to codeforaustralia.org, and under the menu item, our programs, you can find out more about the digital maturity indicator. You can also join our Slack. We have an open Slack, which you can also find on the codeforaustralia.org website. And if you are in either of those locations and want to talk, please ask questions because the team is really, really open, really accommodating, and, really want to share knowledge and, we'll we'll answer any of your questions about the program.
As we bring this conversation to a close, what would you like our listeners to leave us thinking about?
Well, basically, that, we at Code for Australia would love to work with you, whether you're a government agency in Australia or a a civic tech team anywhere in the world. Please get in touch with us at code for australia dot org or on our Slack. We can give you examples of previous outcomes from the digital maturity indicator if you're an agency looking to work with us so you can see a bit of what we can do with you. And or if you want to develop something for your own situation and your own country as a, civic technologist, we would love to start that discussion with you too so you can also use the DMI in your own way.
Laura, again, I wanna thank you so much for taking the time to join us here on the program today. I I have no doubt that folks got to, learn quite a bit from what you had to say. Thank you very much. It's been lovely being here. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civic tech dot chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.
