68 Why volunteer? Code for America Brigade Congress Live Show!
Join us for a conversation about the motivations and constraints involved with volunteering in civic tech! We're joined by [Jill Bjers](https://twitter.com/Jillzey), [Nehemiah Dacres](https://twitter.com/dacresni), [Marianne Miranda](https://twitter.com/mariannettePM), and [Matt Zagaja](https://twitter.com/mzagaja)} for a live show that happened during the 2021 Code for America Brigade Congress.<br><br>Join us on [Discord](https://discord.gg/hECzBJh)<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- [Volunteer personas doc](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dExHtVElMr4oCuWEXWzs8zCuxqj7OTggzyP_LXeJhQ0/edit#)<br><br><br>##### Music Credit: [Tumbleweeds by Monkey Warhol](http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Monkey_Warhol/Lonely_Hearts_Challenge/Monkey_Warhol_-_Tumbleweeds)
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Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Either that, or maybe I'll rant about a topic for a while. Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. I'm so pleased to be with everyone here at Brigade Congress. My name is Ryan Cook, and I am the host of a podcast called Civic Tech Chat, which seeks to cover those places where technology, policy, civic life all kinda come together, which is what brings us here today. We have an excellent panel of guests here. They're gonna talk to us a bit about things like why they volunteer, the sort of motivations they have, the types of volunteers that they have seen as organizers or volunteers themselves, as well as some of the realities of volunteering. So I'm really excited to hear what they have to say. But first, why don't we do a little round of introductions? So could each of you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do? And then, Marie, I think you are up first for that.
Yes. I am. Hi. I'm Marie. I use sheher pronouns, and I'm a user researcher and organizer. So I found myself in the CFA network starting last fall, a few months after I graduated from college. And I've popcorn around the network first as the research lead for the Brigade Organizers Playbook Extension Project, then volunteered with Get Your Refund. And then I ended up joining the revisioning, the revisioning effort and the peer to peer initiatives where I've been building out infrastructures for the network team to support engagements.
Then, Nehemiah, I believe you are up next.
Hello. My name is Nehemiah. I'm from Saint Louis, actually, but I've moved to oh, he him pronouns, by the way. I'm from Saint Louis, Missouri. I moved to Saint Paul, Minnesota very recently as of 2020. What a time to move. Right? And I, started working for the city of, city of Saint Paul. But in my time in Saint Louis, I had joined, an early brigade, OpenSTL, back in '20, like, '14, I think, and have been with the brigade network ever since, I think. Yeah. So happy to join you.
Alright. And I believe I am up next. So I am Matt Zagaya. Hehim, I, hail from Boston where I've been volunteering with Code for Boston since 2015. Started out volunteering on a brigade project, and then worked my way, to being a project lead and then eventually was asked to help, join the organizing team at Code for Boston. So despite being a software developer in my day job, I go Code for Boston. I do pretty much everything but code, which is kind of funny. But, overall, been, quite involved and, you know, continue to, work on the organizing team, and that's, you know, I think, most of my background. During the day, I'm a software engineer, so I do software development, although I was actually professionally trained as a lawyer. So some folks in tech have imposter syndrome. I'm an actual imposter, so that's a lot of fun as well. So, yeah, that's a little about me. I will toss it off, to, I think, Jillsy.
Hey. Yep. Me next. Okay. So, hey, I'm Jillsy. I use sheher pronouns. I am a cofounder and captain of Open Charlotte Brigade, which means I kinda wear all the hats that aren't coding, because I am not a coder. I married a coder, and I spawned one. So, like, that's as much as the coding skills I have. Other than that, I'm one of the original NAC members. I'm the former NAC chair and also a former, CFA community fellow, And I'm happy to see everyone.
So one of my favorite kinds of questions to ask is, the question about, like, personal why. I I like to kinda dig at that motivational level with folks. So for each of you, what is your personal why? The The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do what you do. And, Jill, maybe do you wanna start us off with this one?
Sure. So the why I get out of bed, because it's not socially acceptable to have a fridge in my room, probably. Outside of that, as far as, like, why do I do this kind of stuff, it seems like government touches so much of our lives that even, like, I don't know, we don't think about, and it has such great potential, and it's just not reaching it. So it seems like a good place for to advocate for equality and equity, especially.
So, yeah, that's pretty much why. And, Nehemiah, do you wanna go next? Sure.
I, you know, I I've I've suffered at the hands of this world being, well, starting out as a nerd, and then it's just everything else. This world is weird, and we can definitely make it better. So I thought I'd take a bit of that power into my own hands and make it a better place. And I started out in brigades, and then I'll just now I'm sort of making government more functional. It seems that it is the one of the more, powerful forces in our lives, making it, you know, equitable and and less painful.
Matt, would would you like to go next?
Yeah. So, you know, I've been involved in been volunteering on all sorts of different things, since I was in high school, I was involved in politics, and I got involved in politics in my community because I think it's really important to just give back and leave the world a little bit better than it was, you know, before you're there. And so, looking for different ways to give back, the strong thing about the brigade program is is very much an opportunity to give back in a way that utilizes my skills and lets me do something that I enjoy. And so to sort of find this intersection where I'm doing something useful and valuable, but also, being able to do it in a way where, I am able to utilize my skills and have a lot of fun and also make a lot of friends along the way. That's really what excites me and keeps me involved in the brigade program.
And, Mari, how about you?
Well, so for me, I'm kind of passionate about making sure that people feel supported in a space. I grew up having to navigate the college process by myself, so I struggled a lot there. So I found myself taking up organizing efforts for different types of tech clubs at school, with community and campus organizing. And I found that I really enjoyed helping operate and grow these spaces, because trying to navigate and explore interests alone is scary, and it's not fun at all. And also a general personal why is making myself proud that I'm able to overcome challenges despite all of these hardships. And for me, it's particularly hard to get out of that mindset of being so focused on past decisions and regrets in life. So just being able to prove myself my past self wrong makes me super excited and stoked for what I could accomplish in the future.
So having heard a bit about all of you, one thing that's clear is, even beyond volunteering, y'all have a a lot of different things, going on your lives. A lot of coming at things with, like, a lot of different skills. And that kind of since you end up spending then probably a significant amount of your time then on volunteering and trying to balance it with the rest of life. You know, you could, for example, instead of deciding to go help code something for a brigade or help do some organizing, you could, you know, pop on the couch and watch some Netflix, maybe have, you know, beer in hand. So that begs the question, why do you instead decide to use this time to do volunteering? And I'll sorta leave that question. I'll let it kinda linger over the group and see who wants to hop in first.
So I think that, it is you I think a function, first off, of wanting to be involved in the community. And so is fun as, you know, sitting down and watching, Star Wars on Disney pluses, or playing some Nintendo, which I also enjoy. You really need balance, and I've also established, you know, a little bit of a social rhythm, here in Boston. So I'm not originally from Boston, and the reality is that, I met a lot of friends through Code for Boston. And so I think that it's just exciting to sort of have that regular thing where you're interacting with a bunch of people who you really enjoy working with, and you're collectively working together to make some kind of a difference. So it's not, it's you sort of get these different things out of it, compared to the other stuff, that you do. And I think that, that sense of community and being a part of Boston and really being, you know, I think anyone who gives back to their community is very much a citizen of that community and, love that feeling and, being involved.
I'll second most of that. Like, yeah, it makes me feel connected to the people around me. I mean, I I have friends I've known since high school, and, like, none of them are quite as into technology. Video games, yeah, but not technology. And, like, I, like, like tinkering with things. And so I made friends with other people who like tinkering with things. Like and then, like, even more friends groups, you know, Linux, user groups, gaming groups. And so I've joined communities, and this is just one of them. And it's a lot of fun being a part of it.
And I'll third all of that. Definitely, that social contact with people that align with your interest is something that is super important, especially during these times. And, so I don't ride that this, like, bad reasoning train. My reason to start volunteering was actually to explore how I can blend my interest and truthfully recover. So by the end of last year, I made commitments to take a pause from an exhausting, sorry, exhausting job app grind, constant rejections because I didn't have enough experience and feeling so detached from positions I'd applied for because at that point, I was applying for anything. After the talk.
Okay. Make the local district central.
So I'm like, sorry about that. Saturday, October 6 Okay. But so everything did not bring me joy. So I needed to get joy through volunteering.
I feel like by forthing that, we're basically just saying the same things over again. But, I think that's part of the reason why we're all we've all found each other is that we were looking for that same sense of community. What feels like a million years ago, which is probably only, like, twelve years ago when I first moved to Charlotte, like, the only person I knew was my husband, which is not a recipe for success. And so I really needed a community, and it turns out I bond better with people who are working and doing things and building stuff than I do sitting at a bar, shooting the shit. The whole time I'm reading this, like, these questions, I'm like, yeah. Great existential questions here. Like, let's do some small talk. But the truth is, like, I'm not really very good at small talk either. So, being at the having the opportunity to, like, build a community, around people, when so my as I mentioned, my husband's a software developer. He would wanna go to, like, techie things, and while I don't know anything, I'd at least at the time, didn't know a lot about that. I don't particularly love being left at home, and it turns out they're not great at organizing things. And so, like, my skills did become very valuable. So it's nice to, like, use your skills to be in a valuable way, and it's kind of morphed from there.
So I'm gonna I'm gonna throw a curve ball in here. This is a a question that wasn't written down. Little little follow-up. So I I heard a theme of belonging in there and and really all of your answers, this idea that you were trying to find some sort of mix of community and purpose that came together. Is that is that something that y'all were like, oh, I'm gonna go search for this. Is this something you intentionally knew you needed? And was this the sort of community you intentionally looked for, or is this more happenstance and it just got lucky and it sort of worked out?
What I was searching for was a way to become a better developer, and the idea was I joined hackathons and game jams because I wanted to be a game developer in general. And then, like, more specifically, I learned, you know, about myself through in in college, I learned about myself that I have trouble finishing things. And so I thought, okay. The heated sort of the pressure sort of, of putting yourself through a hackathon because I I think it was from the the intercollegiate programming time test. Like, that whole twenty four hour twenty four hours, period of just being locked in a room, in this case in that case, with no Internet and just the three of you. But, like, in the case of a a hackathon, just like you have to finish this, and just you're gonna get to know people, and you're going to, you've got a deadline. Cut out all the stops. Let's go. And then that feeling was, like, better than homework. It was like being on a test, and I liked it. And I thought, I'm gonna seek that out, and then I found the rest.
I'd say for me, I was looking for a community. But did I, specifically, at the beginning, know that a bunch of tech government nerds was my community or my people? No. Not really. Like, that was as surprising to me as it probably was to you all when I stuck around. So yeah.
Oh, sorry. My, unmute was giving me an issue, but, I can I just share that, I'd been, you know, interested in the idea since my college days of majoring in society tech and policy? This idea of the intersection of government and technology, and I was looking for other people that did this. And when I graduated college in 2009, like, civic tech was not a thing. Like, I was I was early. I was so early. There were, like, not any sort of what you consider, like, jobs in the space or not many, and folks didn't, you know, give a voice in community to it. And as I was, you know, sort of academically focusing on it, that is when this all came to fruition. And so I think when I saw, I think it was Jen Palka's TED Talk about, the whole, Code for America movement idea, I'm like, oh my god. These are my people, and I have to find them wherever they may be. And so I did find, some folks in Connecticut when I was there first, that we're doing civic hack nights at SeeClickFix. And then I knew when I was coming to Boston, that I wanted to find it as well. And, boy, the folks in Boston were doing some amazing things. So I I was glad that they were, willing to accept me as sort of a new person as I came in.
Yeah. And as for me, I was definitely looking for a community, like, a space for me to just exist in. But, like, it felt like that search was, like, with a blindfold on because I wasn't really I really didn't know, like, what I was trying to find. I have interest in UX, but I'm also interested in a lot of ethical tech. I studied, ethics, public policy, science, and technology. Just a mishmash of stuff. So, like, months after being exhausted of trying to find a job post graduation in spring twenty twenty, I was like, well, like, I heard of Code for America. Like, I heard of it during my trying to figure out, like, if software engineering is right for me and seeing, like, oh, Code for America, but I switched my major sometime there. But it like, I just yeah, I actively tried to find a space, but I didn't know what I was heading into.
I appreciate all you all sharing that. I'd like to go ahead and pivot us to bit of a conversation about something called volunteer personas. There is a document that I am now going to attempt to paste into the Zoom chat that Code for Boston helped put together that seeks to describe another a number of these personas. Matt, would you mind starting off this the conversation about this by giving us kind of, like, a high level of what that document seeks to do?
Absolutely. So the volunteer personas document, so the volunteer personas document, came out of a conversation that we were having on two fronts. I think it was trying to better understand our community and create a framework around it and also to to better structure our content on the Code for Boston website to serve those folks. So it was very much I mean, the website is married to the activities that we do as an organization, but we can't do the right things unless we understand why folks are coming to Code for Boston. And we also need to understand, how we can, you know, meet their needs, but also help, sort of steer them in a way that they can productively give back into the organization and, you know, we can all be respectful of each other's time. So, we start digging into, I think, all from a lot of what we knew, and we started to figure out, okay. These are the type of people that are involved in the organization, and so we want to, give a sort of voice and idea to that. And it's not just volunteers you're thinking about, although they make up a large component of folks we think about, we also think about, partners and donors, and I can talk about, those and folks and how they're involved later. So it's like this wider community, central community, and we can talk about that, you know, as we continue along.
Something I I gather from the document is that there is a lot of different types of folks that come into this tent to volunteer with a fair number of different motivations, different levels of experience, different motivations and reasons for being there. I imagine folks on this panel have a lot of experience kind of either as volunteers themselves or as organizers then interacting with these folks. How do these different motivations, places folks come from, interact with how you seek to organize or or collaborate as volunteer?
So one of the first things I always ask people when they would show up for, Open Charlotte is why they were there or what they wanted to get out of their time. So that way I can try to, like, fit them into where, you know, what reaches that goal. Because it's it's nice to to think that we're all here for, like, truly altruistic reasons, but the truth is we're here to to, like, do something. So if your goal is to, like, hone your skills or to lead a team because you've never been given that opportunity at work, like, I wanna give you that opportunity to do something like that. And then the other thing that making sure I always check back in with them to see if that goal has shifted. So that way in hopes of, like, extending their time with us. Because if that goal shifts but their opportunities never shift, then they'll fade away. Oh, that's all. I really like this document. That was super cool. The first time I've ever seen it.
Yeah. So I was part of a project that actually makes an interesting case study of volunteer motivations. So on one hand, it was trying to figure out the mode the, support needs of volunteer brigade leaders in the network. But, also, I had to manage a group of research volunteers on trying to interview and help analyze these, like, the data. And for the like, one of the themes that we found was yeah. So some brigades find it really difficult to retain volunteers because, like, they don't have projects that align with their volunteer skills, which leads to, you know, drop out, because and also not knowing volunteer motivations and also seeing, like, you know, believing that volunteers may not have, you know, meaningful experiences within the brigade. So and then on so that's on the side of, like, the brigade leads for the project, but I also had to manage that the volunteers who didn't help with the research. And, honestly, like, for that, it was super difficult, trying to have, like, people help with the project because the motivations really didn't, their motivations really didn't align. They didn't really understand, like, who what the brigade network is. You're thrown in these interviews to interview brigade leads, and they're like, what is the NAC? Like, after the interview, it's like, what is the NAC? Like, what are they talking about? Like, what's the network team? I'm like, okay. I I truly understand. So there were times where I would all like, try to, like, I understand that the project may not be, like, meaningful to them. So at times, I would support, like, after hours being like, let me look at your resume. Let me look at your portfolio and help through there.
Yeah. I also want to, I think, talk about this idea that we've sort of pivoted as we were, thinking about our projects and how we run the organization and how we sort of changed and shifted from Code for Boston being like this sort of, oh, this is just happening, and it's all sort of entropy and random. And whoever shows up for meetup is just showing up, and whatever happens kinda happens, to building an intentional community and figuring out who we need in this community and what we are missing because every single project needs different kinds of folks in it. And so if you have, you know, only folks that just graduated coding boot camp, they don't have the mentorship that they need to be able to, you know, get something good out of this community. And then if you only have experienced folks, then maybe you're not getting, some of that fresher perspective. And, also, you can't have only software developers. We've been thinking about these projects as holistic projects. And even though, ultimately, our output is a software product, it is more than code, and the coders don't always wanna do the noncode things. So helping to just emphasize again and again that everyone belongs here, and you can have different kinds of folks and invite them into our community, has created a stronger and more diverse brigade for us. And I think that, you know, being doing that recruiting, sending out those asks, that makes a difference. And so that has been, I think, a concrete win from that discussion.
I kinda I do wish that I'd had a document like this when, when we were sort of, pushing our brigade, like, a little bit further. We got it's just there there were some years when there was a sort of dearth of volunteers. We it was a a time of a bit of turnover. Some of our leadership had left to go into other cities, to go into other things. And so a lot of the relationships that we had with our with other communities, with the city itself or the county rather, has sort of severed. And so what we had was a sort of a small enough group that we were able to just sort of keep it informal and hang out before we went into the sort of operationalizing of the volunteer effort. So we and this is, like, morally out of necessity. Thankfully, we still had like, there was still work to do, and it was still very evident that what projects were best suited for what we what people we did have. Right? I mean, we had, like, two coders and, like, a couple of people who who just knew the St. Louis landscape, and they knew what they wanted out of St. Louis. They're still, once again, speaking out of Saint Louis because I joined open open Twin Cities last year. Meanwhile, open Twin Cities has direct engagement from, like, the city of Saint Paul and has engagement from, just more experienced volunteers, I think, even than us. Just they've been more consistently with their brigade. Maybe I'd let I'd like to let them speak to that because I wasn't there for their years of involvement with the brigade network.
Related to this topic, I saw a really interesting question come in through the the handy webinar q and a feature. And that's someone, is wondering I I say someone because it's it it's says anonymous attendee. Someone is wondering if any of y'all have found that there were volunteer motivations that were incompatible with the work the brigade was trying to do. And I guess if so, like, what was your experience with that like?
I definitely had that situation. So this was in between that we were sort of deciding and a lot of brigades were we were interviewing other talking to other brigades about how they proceed with the sort of nebulous relationship with brigade with with code for America central. Like, you know, a lot of brigades were becoming five zero one c threes and all that stuff, and we, you know, wanted to half this one brigade member at halfway con convinced us to turn into a five zero one c four, I think, was the one. And, like, I didn't want the brigade to turn in itself to turn into a for profit venture, but I thought that we were too small and inexperienced to just sort of strike it out on our own with no one really knowing what we're doing. And little did I know someone was out there burning bridges. It was that would have been a disaster. And so I was you know? Luckily, I did have, like, other volunteers that just that more shared that more agree with my vision for the brigade than his, and so we just we didn't go that that way. And I'm I'm grateful. That's to say, I I'm grateful for the other volunteer. He and you know who this is, actually. But he had a a better nose for sort of a BS detector is what I'll call it. Right? And he had less patience for that, and I'm I I thoroughly appreciate that about him. So
I I just you know, if anyone else wanted to go before me, otherwise, I'm happy to share my thoughts. Going once, going twice. Okay. So on, I think our end, you you I talked a little bit earlier about intentional community building, And a big part of our intentional community building is we have an orientation at, every single, brigade meetup. And so every Tuesday, we are, helping set the stage for the volunteers about who we are, what we do, and how we do it. And they are getting funneled into a project, to volunteer. And so sometimes we'll get folks that show up and, you know, they might think, I want help with my PHP project, or I'm gonna just, like, hire folks. And we have different, you know, I think, funnels for folks to do things like share job opportunities. So it gives us an opportunity to let folks know this is who we are, and you're going to go here. And if they feel like their, like, motivations and what they thought Code for Boston was or what they were gonna get out of it is not compatible, then, they'll usually say, oh, okay. Now that I know what this is, I'm gonna go look for the thing that I was looking for. And so that, you know, I think gives us an opportunity just not waste each other's time because, it's not only, like, oh, we don't wanna have our time wasted. But if their needs aren't gonna be met through a code for Boston experience, then they're usually pretty happy to head out as well.
I'd echo a lot of what Matt just said. Like, we do an orientation that explains, like, what we do, what we who we are and what we do, how we do it, that kind of stuff. When I have that conversation about motivation, if I find out that they what they're looking for isn't something that we can provide, at least a cursory knowledge of other, like, especially tech meetups in town has been really helpful in the past because I can tell them, look. This isn't like, I we can't help you with this project or company that you're, like, wanting to build, but have you looked at these places and try to direct them to places that are actually gonna be helpful for them, which means that they're not pulling on our time or they're not wasting their time. They're getting exactly what they need, and that's always been helpful for the most part.
So as a as a bit of a follow on to this, so we we've talked about the idea of that conflict coming up where motivations don't fit with, like, brigade vision or, you know, things folks are trying to have happen in that community. But, Ben Ben actually submitted a question here in the q and a that, is interesting. And that's the idea that there's that tension of like, oh, I I don't wanna promote this, motivation that isn't compatible. But also we're trying to create an environment where everybody belongs. You know, it's a big, big tent that anybody is welcome to join us in. So how have you all gone about that that tension in communication, trying to communicate, hey. You're welcome in this environment, but this specific motivation is what's not compatible?
I guess, I'm happy to kick this one off. And I I think one of the things that I love to think about is, the idea that it's you don't want to just shut folks down. And so if you go to Disney World and ask them what time the park closes, they will tell you the park is open until 9PM. And that is, I think, the mentality that I try to think about, when I'm communicating with new folks and helping them understand, you know, this is what you can do here, and I want try and help understand what they're interested in. And by helping understand their background and who they are, I can maybe give them, the avenues by which, they can be a part of the community and be involved and put them, in the right place. And so that's, how I try and think about it.
I'd say I don't treat it as attention more, like, I don't know, opportunistic. By having those conversations one on one with them, it gives me a chance to, like, yeah, I can't help you build your company because that's not what we do. But, you know, if you wanna volunteer in this project, we can help you establish the skills that you're gonna turn around and use for your company or you know what I mean? Like, if you're a coder and you've never done anything outside of that, here's the opportunity to, like, lead a team or do some research or build a relationship or organize event. Do you know what I mean? Like, things that help round you out to make it so that way you can do you know what I mean? Like, you can go off on your own and have a better shot of it, like, establishing those other motivations that you might have.
That's pretty much what we did. I mean, like I said, we stayed small for a while, but but, you know, once we got a good project that everyone got behind, it was it aligns with a lot of our skills. And and then, you know, I wouldn't say people bounced off, but, like, people sort of were less interested in in bringing their own thing, and and they they just wanted to join with the, like, the one or two main projects that we had. And that kept us kinda focused and gave everybody something to be interested in, and it was sort of like a lightning rod, channeling people. And then, yeah, the you know, people if they didn't think that that was if they didn't want that, then, you know, they we were in a coworking space. We maintained sort of a a trans a porous nature, but we didn't we tried not to have people bounce off of us completely.
Yeah.
So, especially in kind of yeah. The groups that I've organized, like like, all of what Jill, you and Maya and Matt said are pretty key and especially the whole thing about setting expectations, what we can offer and provide, what you could offer and provide, and also setting that space that, like, you are free to, like, you know, make your own decision if you need to leave. Like, you're not bound to the space. And that's kind of what is optimal for a lot of people.
Alright. If the, the the panelists are are satisfied with that, I might go ahead and bump us along to the next section unless someone, you know, gestures at me wildly, like, no. I still have words, Ryan. And I I don't see that happening. So I'm gonna go ahead and move us along to, talking about the constraints in volunteering. And I suppose what I really mean by that is the, like, very personal constraints. And the first thing I wanna ask about there is sort of how it relates to how volunteering volunteering fits into the rest of life. You know, as mentioned, you know, a lot of us have jobs we're working. We have families, and there there are things that come with that. Maybe there are other obligations in life, and we're still trying to, like, find this bit of time to do this volunteering activity that helps make us feel like we belong, makes us help helps us feel like we're contributing. How do y'all seek to balance not only the, like, time and strengths, but then, like, how all of this then weighs on things like your mental health?
Well, one way is to sort of spread out the work amongst, you know, as a as a cathedral on the bazaar says, you know, many hens make light work. Okay. I'm sure that's not just ASR saying that. But, yeah, the that's why we we like the co captain model. And then then the hard part was getting people motivated to to commit and and fulfill the what they what they the responsibilities that they took on. But just that sort of we let a sort of social pressure of I said I was going to do this, and I I we just let people be honest with themselves. Yeah. I ran out of time on that one. I or, you know, some people just had they they, literally told us, well, some things come up. I I can't contribute what I want to take what I want to contribute to the team here. And I'm pretty sure that happened a lot this 2020. You know? A lot of people it wasn't even just it was a lot. And so a lot of people felt that. But
So I feel like this is a part that I probably struggle with a lot just because I'm not great with boundaries. I'm also kind of a control freak. So, you know, giving a, delegating has always been a struggle. But I would say, as far as, like, with volunteers, I'm seems to be much better at that than I am with my own personal health. A big thing is creating a for us, creating community of communication and an environment of communication. So, and what I mean by that is, like, it needs to be blameless. Like, you need to be able to raise your hand and say, you know what? Like, life came up. I can't do the thing I committed to do, without there being shame in there, without there being somebody feeling guilty because they didn't have the opportunity to do something because they said they would do it, and now they just can't. Because when people think that they can't raise their hand or that there's going to be shame, they just ghost, and they'll just disappear. And then you don't know what happened instead, and they never come back. And so, like, it it needs to be a place as safe space includes a safe space of being able to say, I can't live up to the responsibility that I once thought I could. And so I think that's a huge mental health thing. When I needed a bow out for my own mental health, my team there was no blame. It was like, let us know what you need. And then I disappeared for a year. Hi again. And so, you know, I think that's really important to be able to raise your hand and say I just can't.
Okay. I'll go next. So what Jill said, like, really resonated with me and my situation. So I'm gonna, like, answer this question in in a slightly different direction where a big part of why I started to volunteer was to maintain my mental health. So the volunteer community here at CFA was an optimal space for me to join in on because it allowed me to take a breather from the stress I had as a recent grad that, like, had a lot of, like, different hardships and just also being able to explore my interests without being pushed away, for not, like, having the expertise. And, yeah, like, this optimal space, like, allowed me to, like, you know, continue to thrive in this space. I've, like it's difficult to, yeah, like, to feel, you know, a lot of shame for, you know, leaving a project. But this space has allowed me to be, like, you know, vulnerable and speak with the peers that I've met saying, hey. Like, I'm not doing well this week. So, like, by the way, like, this is what's going this, this is going to this is what's going to happen and setting those expectations, and it creates a really positive environment for me.
Yep. And then, you know, I I think that it it it's really I just love the points. I just need to really, I think, just wanna continue to lift up what Jill said because it was such a great explanation of what we all deal with, especially those of us on organizing teams and the importance of being able to bring serve your whole self at least to your peers, within what your role is on the brigade. Because if you can be honest about it and say, hey. You know, I'm, like, dealing with some tough family stuff or some tough job stuff, and I my bandwidth is just not there for the next couple weeks, it makes it easier for other folks to step in. And then folks reciprocate that. So it's like, I got married, and I was out for a month. I was on my honeymoon. And everyone else on the leadership team, sort of jumped in, and they were able to do everything perfectly fine. And so, you know, I had the confidence in them to be able to do that, and they did fantastic, which I knew they would. I I never worried about it for a second while I was gone. So I think that makes a big difference. And then the other thing, is just very much, just in your own personal life, a little time boxing and focus. And so I know that Tuesday nights is my code for Boston Night, and then we have our leadership meeting, once a month, and I commit to that. And that's the most that I'm gonna commit to. Everything on top of that is bonus. And so when people make asks, sometimes those asks, the answer is no. It's not because I don't wanna implement their great idea. The answer is I just literally do not have time on top of that. And I'm sorry. Like, okay. This is a great idea if you wanna do it or if you can recruit other people to help with that. So that's, I think, my little more practical side of that.
You know, one of the tricks to this is sort of being upfront about that. Like, what Josie said, a lot of that has to in order to pull that off, you gotta, communicate that as either leading that doing that by leading by example. So, you know, I've I've I've missed some of my deadlines, and we were we were we'd talk about, oh, you know, if you show up late to a meeting, we bring down this. We thought about these kinds of things, but I'm not sure if it was if we ever thought that we're not sure which one we came down. I'm not sure which one we came down on as far as, like, disappointing, but we definitely had to, like, give people space, and we give ourselves space. And so, you know, most of us had jobs or even or, you know, I had I had lost my job, and I'd spent more time on the brigade than my own job for a while. And that was, I I was transparent about that. So a little bit of leadership transparency goes a long way, and so then it doesn't, you know, doesn't feel like it's like a ball of people that that are holding you accountable and also lead everything at our opaque. That transparency also goes into, like, setting expectations. I think that's kind of what helped us. I'm not oh, and in and I gotta credit one of the other brigade members for this. One of the like, you would start every meeting. That was a great idea. We would start every meeting with a sort of presentation, a slideshow about who we are, and that that was part of the sort of setting level setting, if you will. And I I I really like that. I am not taking credit for all of the ideas. I just liked I really liked my team, man. They were just great ideas all around.
In the interest of leaning into this kinda safe space of vulnerability we've we've created in the conversation, I wanna ask y'all a bit about imposter syndrome, which I think is a thing that when I said that word, the heart rate of everybody in the attendee list went up a little bit, because I think it's a common struggle. I know, even myself here, like, having the chance to talk in front of y'all and, like, ask questions of this illustrious panel. I, in this role feel imposter syndrome a lot. Like, why do people give me this guy who just bought a USB mic the time of day to ask them questions? But I would love to hear about y'all's experiences with that. You know, what what kind of feelings that the that experience brought up and how you've responded to it.
I don't I don't actually know anybody who doesn't have some form of imposter syndrome, so I'm not sure if it's, like, imposter syndrome or just, like, our natural instinct to not think that we're good enough to do stuff. But I think it either makes you wanna work harder or it shuts you down. And I'd like to think that most of the time, I work harder because of it to make myself actually, qualified or find ways to become qualified to do things. I think sometimes it gets overwhelming, and so it does shut me down. But, yeah, I think if you're just honest with the fact that, like, you know, I I'm absolutely convinced that any day now you all are gonna figure out that I'm full of shit, and you're not gonna want me to, like, hang out. But until that day comes and you all get smart enough to not do that, or to do that, Like, you know, I think it just makes me work harder because I wanna become actually, have the expertise that I feel like you all think I do.
Yeah. Imposter syndrome is a huge struggle bus in my life. So and it yeah. It goes with what Jill has said about, like, you either work harder or you shut down. And, so, like, like, there was impot like, impostor syndrome drove me to, switch my major out of software engineering. And then, yeah, I'm out there. I pivoted to UX research, got an internship at Alaska Airlines, and that I still felt, like, it was it still felt like an imposter because my school didn't have an actual UX, like, related program. So I ended up, you know, searching, like, on Google, figuring out, hey. Like, what are other, like, top schools do and what curriculum that they have? So a lot of imposter syndrome there. And when I joined, like, the Brigade organizers playbook extension project, I am, like, recent grad, joined as the UX research lead for the project. Essentially, like, having, you know, volunteers that some of them have PhDs, like, in research, and I'm like, what am I doing right here? So I always still struggle with imposter syndrome, but lately, like, just reminding myself, of the impact that I had onto others. But even reminding myself is also difficult. So kind of learning to just accept, like, positive comments made about me by like, from my peers. Just accept them. Don't be like, but well, but not in this instance. Like, not in that mindset. So just accept and just not question, and, like, that has been, like, making my, like, viewpoint, just a lot better.
I I doubt I've ever had imposter syndrome myself, but that that's after credit and part the Saint Louis developer community. That was definitely one of the first, like, game jams I went to. The first thing they did is goes, okay. Stand up and say, I am a developer or I am a game developer. And just just because they they knew that that was an issue. And so I'm gonna just the the that community wanted to tackle that as sort of a front end thing. And then I sort of shared that that I don't wanna say charity, but what's the word I wanna use? With the generosity with, with my team? So, like, for example, someone said, I'm a I'm new I'm not a web developer, but, you know, I'm and then but they had early told earlier told me that they were an embedded programmer. And I said, hold on a sec. And this this is harder. I'm like, well, I don't know about harder, but just just back up for a minute. A embedded developer has to use, you know, statically typed language like c that's, like, like, event or invented, which, by the way, is a lot similar to JavaScript. But, also, you know, I'm just I just outlined the things. They're like, these are different challenges. Yo. We don't don't undersell that. You first of all, that, that experience brings a lot here. Yeah. A lot of that experience communicates. Right? And then this this that's really hard. Most people don't ever encounter, also a limited library set. Right? So, yeah, a lot of that like I said, I I was very generous about the the attitude I had toward people's experience. And then I hopefully encourage other people to be more generous with, like, with how how valuable their experience was to to contribute.
Yeah. So this whole imposter syndrome thing is a bit, I have a different perspective on it, because as I mentioned, I wasn't professionally trained in any of this. Software development was very much a hobby for me. And so, when I first started out, I didn't care if I had imposter syndrome. I wasn't trying to be, you know, like, the best JavaScript programmer. I was just, like, having fun building projects on weekends, and I I was, you know, aiming towards a little bit of a different career. And then it just sort of my hobby turned into my job, and I had a lot of fun doing it. But that said, I have, you know, I think a whole lot of folks that I've met and worked with and, mentored through my day job. And I really see, I think, the, you know, permeation of imposter syndrome in the software development community specifically. And I don't think it's limited to that, but it seems to be especially pervasive, as folks think about things. Of course, I went to a tech undergrad school, and, like, the physicists, thought they were really sort of at the top of the ladder, and the mathematicians thought they were better than the physicists. Like, it just goes everywhere, but, ultimately, you know, it's, something where you need to understand that, one, this is not dress rehearsal. Like, every day you show up, this is the game. And so you need to, try hard, and you're gonna make mistakes like everyone else, and that is okay. Like, making a mistake doesn't mean you're bad at what you do. And I think also just helping other folks understand, like, where the bar is, what folks, you know, usually do, helps level set. And so once you understand that other, like, talented folks do things the way that you do, then you start to feel a lot more comfortable with it, talking with your peers. That's why it's so great going to a meetup because when, you know, you're in your organization or company and doing something, then you can talk to other folks, at other organizations and know, how they're doing things. And maybe try and get better sometimes or maybe just realize, that you have been doing it the right way the whole time. And I will finally, close out and say that, a couple, you know, years ago when we last met at the Code for America Summit, they gave us these t shirts and said no one is coming. It's up to us. And so the idea is very much, that, you know, regardless of whether you're, you know, at the, like, top of, you know, your expertise in a certain area, it's always going to be sort of a group in a team thing, so you don't have to be the best at everything. And, ultimately, you know, it's not like there are other people trying to do what you're doing and beat you. It's not a competition. You're doing this together. And so I think that just appreciate that and your peers, and that's what makes the difference.
So much good in that answer. I did I I wanna I think some of that is also kind of pervasive. Some of the, like, no one is the expert or the best or trying to be the best it's not competition. A lot of that, I think, shared with the open source community, and I love that about that community. That's why I gravitate toward that too now. They're they're sort of trying to that. Like, some of it, you know, get some hot shots kinda kinda polluted that water, but they're they're coming back to it going, yes. This community is for everyone and and regardless of skill level, you know, like you said. And and we we can't let the self called hotshots sort of dominate the conversation. You you have to give space to everyone. So
Well, I I know we're getting to the the end of our time block here. As far as, like, the org organizing folks, I have a question for y'all. Do we have enough space for me to, kinda allow them to do a little little bit of a concluding thought before we close? Is that okay? Excellent. So a, I'm assuming the yes in chat was for me, maybe it wasn't. Unless I'm interrupted to tell me that it's not, I'm just gonna go for it. Cool. So one of the things that we do on the the Civic Tech Chat podcast podcast is at the end of every episode, there's a space for the guests to give us an idea of what sort of thoughts they like us to leave the conversation with as we then kinda go into the rest of our day. So I'd like each of the panelists to kinda consider that as I vamp here for a little bit, and then share with us what concluding thoughts they'd like us to have. And while they're thinking about that, I'm also in the service of always plugging. Gonna throw a link in the chat. If you liked this panel, you liked the podcast, maybe you wanna, like, chat with people who are in this community, the podcast has a Discord, and there's a an invite link in the in the Zoom chat. Come come hang out with us. So now that I've done my little advertisement thing, what kind of concluding thoughts do y'all have?
You know? Okay. I can I think I can go? So I love that shirt. The or even I don't even think it was just a shirt. Jen Polka used to say that. It's no one is coming. It's up to us. Right? I I liked it because and and then I wanna like, what was it that, that he added? That, oh, right. That this is not that there is no dress rehearsals every it reminds me of, like, miss Frizzle's get messy, make mistakes. Oops. Take chances, get messy, make mistakes. I just did. I I I want to bring that energy to just about everything because of the sort of humanity in all of us. And at the very least, I wanna leave with, like, community is, I think, what really energizes us here. I mean, even if you're an introvert, just still the feeling of being a part of, I think somebody's gonna call that meeting three point o. It's like, you know, the online community is bringing us meaning and all that stuff. Like, let that sort of energize you versus, I don't know, profit or it it that's probably I think I think that's why the open source community works as well as does. But, like, just that giving yourself that space to mess up, it's gonna have to be a comb, a combination of all these things. We got a lot of work to do on ourselves going forward, as a group. We got there's a lot of work to do in this world. And I think with that sort of generosity for ourselves that it's not all on us and that we we can make mistakes, but we have to, like, be honest about those mistakes in order to to fix it. Yeah. That's, I think, how we're going to to go forward.
I'd like to say for my closing thoughts is just to take care of yourself, and don't be afraid to make a change. Volunteering can be an escape, but volunteering can also be a very tough thing to do. So don't be afraid to make decisions such as taking a pause or leaving a project. Just, you know, volunteering will always be there. There will be an opportunity that you'll enjoy better. Please, you know, recharge. We're all, like, you know, we're affected by, like, these trying these trying times. So, just really realize that everyone a lot of people are, like, are struggling, and you are not alone.
So I think that, there's you know, we covered so much, and I love all the perspective that all the other panelists shared. And, hopefully, you know, it gives some good flavor and context to the document. But, ultimately, you know, I think as Mary had suggested, like, put on your own oxygen mask first. This needs to be fun. This is supposed to be fun. It's supposed to do something good for you, and so it needs to fit into your life in whatever way makes sense. And those ways are going to change at different stages of your life. And so sometimes you're gonna be able to sort of lean in a bit more. Sometimes you're gonna have to pull back as other things happen in your life. And you need to build a community where everyone can do that because folks are going to wanna participate if they feel that flexibility. And if they feel like it's they're, like, forced to be there that, like, nothing no one else is gonna step in, that there's gonna be no one to catch them, then they're gonna feel stuck. It's not gonna be fun. You're not gonna get much done, and, you know, you're not gonna have, the community and success, that you want. So think about the people. They're the most important thing in this whole operation, and make sure you're taking care of yourself. And I think if so long as you do that, your brigade will continue to grow and do amazing things.
So I think I probably already given you all of my wisdom already, but, it's a very shallow pool. I so I keep thinking about this, like, that phrase, no one is coming is up to us. And I think on some level, I agree, because you can't expect somebody else to fix everything, but at the same time, there isn't just one of us. Right? Like, we're not in this alone. So someone is coming, and it's we need to be coming for each other, because it's not it doesn't feel like it's truly no one is coming. So just remember, like, everything should be fun. And if anything is not fun, ditch it. But, like, do the I I think it's worth the extra work to make sure that volunteering with our organizations is fun. It is something that people wanna do that, there is an environment of caring, of empathy, of, you know, fun and, you know, laughter. Otherwise, it it's even if we come for each other, it's still not gonna be enough. And thanks, everyone.
You know, hearing Jill say that their wisdom is a shallow pool made my brain go, man, mine must be a rain puddle. But that's but I do wanna thank everybody for, for coming to the panel and, and, listening to us talk for a while. I think we covered some really great topics. Thank you to all the panelists for taking part, sharing your wisdom, and being vulnerable. That's, not an easy thing to do in public, and I I very much appreciate it. And, of course, thank you to Code for America for making this space available. You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.
