75 Innovating the social safety net
We are joined by Amanda Renteria (https://twitter.com/AmandaRenteria), CEO of Code for America (https://codeforamerica.org) to talk about their new program, the Safety Net Innovation Lab and the impact it could have on government services.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- https://codeforamerica.org/news/audacious-project-investment-to-launch-safety-net-innovation-lab/
Top Keywords
- code america 0.009
- government 0.007
- america 0.007
- policy 0.007
- time 0.006
- code 0.006
- tech 0.006
- folks 0.006
- pile 0.006
- trying 0.006
- work 0.006
- civic tech 0.006
Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Before we get started, I do want to let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. Amanda, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?
Sure. Well, it's great to be on on this, on this podcast with you. Amanda Renteria or for your viewers who speak Spanish, Renteria. I am the CEO of Code for America and, really excited to be here. We, partner with governments and community based organizations to really help modernize systems to reach all people. And so it's a it's a good time to be talking about this.
And what would you say is your personal why? That thing that drives you to say to get out of bed each morning and do what you do. Yeah. I,
gosh, I am feel incredibly honored to be in a space of public service. So what I've always loved is the idea of how are you waking up every day, making the world a better place for others. It's why I call myself a career public servant in life. But I think that stems from the fact that I come from a place that has felt pretty forgotten in the world. It's one of the lowest income congressional districts in the state of California and among the tenth poorest across the country. And, when you grow up grow up in a place like that and then have opportunities that I have had, whether that's going to college or whether that's seeing the country and the world, I have a real sense of, both humbleness and responsibility about what am I doing to give back and make sure that that path can be walked by others too. And so the kind of work that we do at Code for America allows me to do that every single day, with people who are connected to the mission of making the world better.
Are there any pieces of media, whether a podcast, book, video, or some other such thing that you'd recommend to the folks listening?
You mean after this one? So certainly, no. Listen. I think I do. I believe these conversations around gov tech, civic tech, people's responsibility or connection to service is an important, really understanding about the world in general and the world in which we live today. But I think there's an also an aspect about technology given, given that we have a lot of digital natives in the world and more and more of those as I see my kids walking around. And in that in that world, you know, there is Sid Harrell's book out there. There's quite a few GovTech, now CivicTech podcasts as well. But I do wanna say this, and perhaps I am a little bit, influenced by the pandemic and being housed inside, but we all we all need to go out and actually experience, what it's like to be in different places in other people's shoes. We talk about this a lot at Code for America. We don't just read about the process of applying for benefits. We actually have people go out and apply themselves and or walk into a social services office. Feel what it's like to try and petition in a court to get your criminal record clean. Those kinds of experiential, opportunities really have a depth that I'm not sure you can get at arms distance no matter what you are seeing, reading, or hearing. And so, while I think it's awesome to get some understanding of it, I hope that more and more of us really try and put ourselves in other people's shoes in order to make that connection and really understand what people are going through.
So folks listening might be aware, but, this is not the first time that you've come on Civic Tech Chat. This is round two. And, actually, I think the last time was back in September 2020, which, don't know, just like hearing myself say that data loud makes it feel like it's like some, like, lifetime ago or another era of a sort. And I think that you were, kinda, like, kinda fresh into this, like, role as CEO. Now that you're, like, couple years in, like, how are you feeling about, having taken that on and, like, where you're at these days? Yeah. What was I thinking?
No. On the one hand, it, feels like a long time ago, and on the other, it feels like we're still in it. Right? And so the way I look at it is, wow, we've come a long way, and yet the world is still uncertain. We're still sort of going back and forth with pandemic. People are kinda back in, kinda not back in. Our masks on, our masks off. And so while, the world has while we've been in this for a while, there's still a lot of uncertainty out there. And what I've thought about over this course of time and what we've really understood at Code for America is that at some point, this is the new normal. And what role are we gonna be playing in defining, what we look like on a going forward basis out of crisis, but really understanding how do we have good systems that work. And so when I first started, when we probably talked in September, we had a lot coming at us. And people were like, how can you dig in and help? And everybody was scrambling just do whatever they could. We are now in a place in recognizing, we need to be foundational about this. How do we now how are we an organization that can sustainably, help people in times of uncertainty? And the way we think about that is now how do we put our organization in place so that when the world is uncertain, systems work so that we can lean in when we see a program that's not quite working or government having a hard time on, getting access or getting benefits to people. How do we then identify it early on, flexibly move into it, and help as best we can? Good example of that, since we last talked, was the child tax credit. Right? And so there was a new policy sort of out there. It went out there, and we were able to, we were able to jump in and say, alright. We know that the IRS isn't quite equipped with mobile app in dual languages. Let's figure out what we can do, and wanting to be in a situation as an organization where that is a matter of course as opposed to a result of a pandemic or a crisis coming at us.
You know, it's it's fascinating you bring up the child tax credit because that one is one where you know, in public policy, it's, like, often hard to, like, isolate and say, oh, this thing we did actually had an impact. But that is one program where it's like like, you could see the poverty rate, like, on a graph just drop in in, like, a fairly short amount of time, which I imagine there's a a fair number of, like, policy IPGs are excited to be able to to study that closely. But certainly seem like a good example of an effective, effective policy proposal.
Yeah. I mean, one of the realities of that policy in general is, we've known for a long time in terms of tax credits and, refundable tax credits, the immediate impact it can have on families out there. And so and you have a system that can actually work to distribute that. So there was a lot of good processes in the system. The big question about the child tax credit was that we were trying and the administration, everyone in congress working on the child tax credit was trying to reach people who were largely unseen or forgotten. And when you're trying to introduce a whole new set of community or people into a system they've never understood from the beginning, it requires you to look at it differently. In other words, why is your first question x versus y? Right? And so so much of that process that we went through and being able to jump in and partner with government sitting side by side with IRS, the White House, the Treasury, with community based groups from the very beginning to say, will people understand this? Will it meet people where they are? Really was a moment for us to understand the world today, figure out how technology can be involved in it, and then get the players around the table to kinda do it. And we can get real time data now with technology where you can actually see, hey. If we actually ask this question instead of that question, we got more people to make it all the way through the process. That was the beauty of, CTC and really the efforts around it.
The, the efforts we're talking about maybe make for a great segue to the, I guess, like, the first kind of main topic question I have for you, and that's, something big that the all over Code for America announced. There's this thing called the safety net innovation lab, which I gather, you know, you've got something like a 100,000,000 in funding. So that's a a very large, sum for for a program, through a combination of a couple funders. I think I saw the the Audacious Project, which I believe is, related to to TED Talks. It's like a philanthropic league, a wing, and then, Blue Meridian Partners. What are you hoping to do with this, new set of programming that y'all announced?
First of all, it's it's you know, on on the one hand, Code for America has this award, but it's really been a long time making with the broader civic tech ecosystem. For a long time, we have been talking about the what is possible when you actually bring tools together, human centered technology, human centered government. And there's a lot of us out there who have been doing pilot project after pilot project in states or in cities to prove the way technology can actually smooth things out, but it matters how you do technology. It matters that you start with respect and dignity. And so, the excitement, for all of us in the safety net innovation lab is that it's the first time we've seen a major philanthropic investment say, we know we need to do we need to help government systems work in a way that, really centers the person it's trying to serve. And my hope is that not only do we actually prove what is possible through, helping governments come to, using human centered technology, but that we start talking about a different way for government to interact with the people it serves, thereby changing the relationship between government and people. Whereas right now you'll hear a lot of people folks say government doesn't work or it harms people. And I think we need to get back to a place where we're all in this together saying, how do we now make it work? And part of what we get a chance to do is within the context of safety net, really work with government partners to figure out the best ways to reduce barriers so that we are reaching people in the way that they want to be served and helping on the other side, government public service servants, work through the process and some of the tangles they have in just trying to serve people.
Something I think I I hear there in your answer is that, like, potentially improving the space really ends up being by its side effect a a way to, like, improve just, like, trust in the institutions more broadly. Because I think folks that have maybe paid attention to, like, literature and things, that's been on a decline for quite quite a while. Is that is that something you see in this work? Absolutely. It's it only works if there is trust.
And, you know, we talk a lot about this at Code for America that, some questions, particularly low income people, start with, are you a felon? And if I just met you and my my first reaction to be like, hey, are you a criminal? Not quite the kind of relationship that's gonna really be something I mean, it starts with the very question of untrustworthy. Right? And so, part of what we are trying to change here is that interaction, that relationship. And interestingly, that technology can kinda help foster a much better opening door, than sometimes what you get when you walk into a social services office or when you walked into access benefits. So the hope is that not only the the you actually change direct service, but you change the relationship tone and feeling about that connection.
In the project description on the Audacious Projects website, it points out that there is a significant underenrollment problem where there's, 60,000,000,000 in benefits that go unclaimed every year. And you can also see this with information about specific services like SNAP, which the USDA reports as being, in fact, like, 82% utilized, or it's, like, 82% of the folks that could use it managed to do so. Yeah. In in your experience, what kinds of things are at the root of an under enrollment issue like that?
Well, this is what's really exciting about the Safety Net Innovation Lab. We will be partnering with 15 states with the goal of unlocking, $30,000,000,000 in benefits for 13,000,000 eligible families. The reason why that makes a difference is we are putting clear metrics about what we are trying to do, driving us to really work with states, meet them where they are, to understanding the barriers to unlocking those benefits. And so we have from our decades of work, we have some pretty good theories and have seen pilots. Right? Number one is you do have to start with respect and dignity. So if your first question is offensive, we're never gonna get through this thing. Right? The second is it needs to be simple, easy to understand, the questions, the application process, really mapping that out and saying, is this can anyone get through this truly? Asking that kind of question, which means centering the person you're serving. Right? And then there's a third piece to it, which is our public servants are living in a world of old bureaucratic systems, and so it is really difficult for them to navigate what's coming at them. And we have tech tools that can actually now help a lot of those public servants understand the pile on the desk, in other words. And so our our entire intention of the Safety Net Innovation Lab, and we've seen this already, is states across the country do face some of the same similar problems. We wanna be able to bring those cohorts together and help solve those problems. We know that in every state, it's gonna be different. We know that programs are slightly different here and there. And part of the beauty of that is when we come together and when we've seen states work together, particularly in the pandemic, you've been able to surface not just the problems, but a good shared best practices and understanding where everyone gets better because they're learning from and with each other in real time.
I imagine there could be issues in spaces here where, effectively, it's kinda like where technology and policy meet. Whether we're talking about that, like, that first question thing you talk about, you know, if it's offensive, that might put you off. Or whether we're talking about the idea of friction, basically, like, things that maybe make it more difficult, gates you have to go through in order to get to a to a a service that you're entitled to. As an as an organization that would be effectively like a consulting partner and is, for governments, how do you go about trying to help on an unentangle or untangle and improve where these where these two things meet?
Yeah. So policy is a key is really a key partner in all of this working. And here's why is, you know, a lot of people might look at the pandemic and go, oh, everyone now understands why digital delivery matters. We saw two things. Not only did governments say, I thought a digital delivery of service was a nice to have. Now I realize it's a must have because there's no other way we're gonna do this. Number one. Number two, during the early stages of the pandemic, there were a lot of waivers where people were just like, listen. I have food lines. I have parking lots. How do we make sure the people who need food can access that? And so there were a lot of waivers put into place that said, maybe we don't need to have four or five different levels of identification. What we're learning, maybe we need this, or maybe we can work off what we've had in the past, and we can help meet people where they are. There was a lot of policy that actually got pulled in different ways in real time that now we have a chance to go back and say, do we really need to bring that back again, or is that an old policy that we just didn't undo? Right? It's rare it's rare in government, and I worked in the United States senate for almost a decade. It's rare that you say, you know what? We're just gonna now pull this policy off or this proposal off the books. And so what happens is you get more and more a web of policies and then not an understanding of how they might hurt implementation. And so what we talk a lot about at Code for America is our direct service is really great to see implementation whether the whether the policy has worked because we can actually see it. But how are we now providing a feedback loop back to policymakers to say, hey. This was awesome when you did this, and this other thing that you wrote made it really difficult to get people the resources they need. And so we see policy as an important and key partner to really accelerating good outcomes, and we see ourselves as building the real tangible lessons, both the facts and figures and the stories on the ground to help policymakers with what kinds of clear policies can unlock barriers, smooth things out, make things better, for both public servants and the people they serve.
I think something I hear with the mention of the feedback loop being important is that maybe some aspect of this problem is that policymakers maybe don't always get to see, like, a reliable view of the impact of of, like, what happens after the policy is made or, potentially, even, like, the, like, the data inputs before as they're writing it. Is that is that is that something that is is accurate?
That's fair, and there's a lag time. Right? So policy passes, agency picks it up, they put out guidance, and then they, and then it gets implemented at the very local or state level. That's a long string. Right? And when I say policy, I don't just mean legislative policies. There's administrative policies. There's budgetary policy. Right? There's different facets of policy. And so it is important that when we talk about those feedback loops, you're thinking about like, okay, whose policy is that? As an example, with pandemic EBT when we were trying to get resources out to school kids, the guidance that came from the federal level was a little confusing. And so that meant it took a little bit of time before you could get resources out because states weren't sure what was meant by x or y. And so that the quicker we can get those feedback loops, just like with any product you build, the the better we will be at outcomes. And so that's what's exciting here, which is the ability to not only see the direct output and outcomes, but use that information to really inform back again to say, if we do this again, how about incorporating this policy, or how about giving pilot or iteration time so that we can work out the kinks before going full scale? Things like that have been really, have taught us a lot during the pandemic because in real time, we were all doing that. And so if you replay that story, you can wait a second. There were some things that were really good about all of us moving as fast as we could, trying to get to people as fast as we could. What did we learn and what can we institute on the going forward basis so that policy moves as fast or at least faster to take in output and outcomes of what we've learned?
In the press release y'all put out, about the safety net innovation lab, you talk about these unsung unseen heroes in the government that work directly with people every day. And, there's a quote from there where you said we can and must equip them with the kind of tools and data they need to streamline their efforts and create a truly human centered safety net that meets the needs of millions of people in America. In there, you're effectively talking about, like, things like those folks are missing right now in order to, like, try to accomplish that. What what sorts of things are they are those, and how would you, like, go about trying to identify them?
Sure. So, this is some of the most, I think, hopeful, helpful, exciting stuff that we see behind the scenes. It doesn't necessarily get written up in papers when but when you see a public servant go, oh my god. That pile on my desk, You can use technology to instead of having, you know, a thousand paper pile, I now have five. And I know the first pile, this is the barrier they're facing. The second pile, this is the barrier they're facing. That kind of sorting in and of itself is freeing because now you can actually handle that that bucket of let's say, it's casework or that bucket of issues that people have bumped up against. Now you know what the five barriers are. And let's say I say, you know what? That first pile, you're gonna have to go through each of those. But you know that second pile? If we just change this policy, it doesn't exist. That's so to try and put that that's the way to try and put it tangibly. But that's what tech can do, right, is that it can actually help people who are trying to navigate barriers for people or just things that people are bumping up against. It can give you a dashboard of here here is why you have that pile on the table. Here are the five things that you need to address. And some are gonna be easy, some are gonna be hard, but at least it lets you sort it out so that you're not you're not in you're not meeting every person with having to figure it out from the very beginning. You're actually able to sort it and makes it more efficient.
Oh, I I think what I'm hearing there effectively is, like, if I'm the person who has to deal with that pile, you're enabling me to instead of spending, you know, this much time dealing with the meta of, like, what how dealing with this pile, I can instead focus on, like, more value on things, like, actually, like, trying to help the person.
That's right. You you have more time. Right? If you know that this one and and, by the way, the other thing it allows us to identify is if as an example, if everyone is getting stuck on question two of your application, and you can put that all in one bucket and go, oh, if we just asked it like this, I wouldn't have this bucket too because I keep answering the same email by, oh, this is what we meant. Right? That is beautiful. I mean, I know that's a really simple example, but it actually is things we bump up against quite a bit in government is because things are moving from paper form to digital or we're trying to meet government language to real people language. Those kinds of things bump up a lot. And what you realize is, you know, that caseworker on the other end who's trying to make sense of it is like, you know, every day you have to answer one email a day as opposed to, you know, 10, you know, bunching up those emails where you can answer the problem in in a bunch as opposed to taking everything one at a time.
Some something you mentioned a bit earlier in the conversation is that you have, I think you said the goal is to try to partner with 15 different states Yeah. As part as part of this program. Can can you if you're able to, can you pull the curtain back a little and talk about how you're gonna, like, figure out which 15 states? Like, who who who gets to be partners with this sort of thing?
So the the good news is this is a really iterative process. I mean, we we wanna make sure that states that we're engaging with, they're ready to. We wanna make sure they're comfortable with us actually us naming them. We are very much meeting states where they are, and you have a a, you know, an array of different folks. What I will say about, this innovation lab is it's hard for government to, publicly innovate in real time. Right? Most folks, there's a real high expectation of of government having clear results. And so what I am hoping for is that everyone gets a little bit comfortable as we're trying this thing. But what I will say is in the early stages, we're really excited that states understand what we can bring to the table. I think you will hear more about states when we can show some quick wins and some results from this cohort model from some of the things we're taking on. And that's what's really exciting is I think we often hear about how government has broken down or this or that doesn't work. I am looking forward to being able to showcase and show all the amazing stuff that is happening across the country because it's not something folks talk about very often. It's actually quite the opposite. Right? You make headlines when something is broken. And I'm looking forward to being able to really showcase what governments have already been doing behind the scenes, but also bringing it to that next level in a cohort fashion to really show, the energy and the influence and impact that government can have.
One one thing I'd be curious about, as you're, like, trying to seek out these partners, maybe some of them already suspects. You haven't gotten to the to the naming part yet. But are there are there aspects either to like, about the states or maybe about, like, the approach to partnership that you're seeing that maybe, like, make it seem like, oh, like, this situation would be more ideal for this sort of partnership than, say, others.
Yeah. I mean, I, we we are finding that, a lot of states face some very, very similar problems. Whether right now, whether that's just casework piling up, whether that's tech a certain kind of missing tech talent across their teams. And so some of our process or not some of our process. A lot of our process right now is really understanding the scalable or scaled problems, I would say, and figuring out how can we actually address those. Because we know that just to come to government and say, we have this tech idea or we have this solution for you never works. Right? It's really understanding where they are and, especially as people come back into government service physically, we're you know, with a new view of digital delivery, this allows us to have those kinds of conversations and really tackle it in a cohort fashion. But there's no doubt that the that the that the current environment of uncertainty is putting a lot of pressure on governments to figure out how are we serving people when the world is so uncertain, and how can we be a place where it's simple, easy to use? And Code for America, can you help us with that?
I guess, also out of curiosity, you know, if there happens to be a you know, we have we have some governors out there in our civic tech chat listening community. Is there still an opportunity for states to try to get involved? And if so, I I don't know. How how should they go about that? Yes.
Absolutely. Like, happy for you to DM me at at Amanda Renteria on Twitter, and I mean that. We are our team is absolutely ready. They're welcome, and we will, we have a right now, we're introducing this concept of a, safety net innovation lab, but we will be asking for input, for request for information, request for, do you wanna get engaged and involved? And so, that is to come, and, I'm excited about it. And I hope every single government says, how can I use these guys? How can they help us? Because our entire intention is to partner with government and the idea that we really wanna equip government to be able to do it on their own. We're there. We're never gonna leave anyone, you know, anyone by themselves. Even when we come in and we help, we partner for a while for as long as needed. But the idea is we're not here to sell anything. We're here to help really uplevel and, make sure that public servants have what they need, the governments have what they need so that people are served in the way that I think, we'd all be proud of.
I imagine there's also folks out there that are listening to this. They're nodding along, and they're saying, man, like, I'd really like to find a way to get involved in in in this sort of work. Are there, opportunities for that, I guess, forthcoming? And if so, what sort of folks are you hoping to find? Yeah. Well, we always have a pretty good list on codeforamerica,uh,.org
where, our job listings are pretty fresh, and we have quite a few of them. And, we welcome folks to come. I think some people think that all Code for America needs are engineers and technologists, researchers. We need it all. We need that and then some. I also just want to, you know, I wanna say something really special about Code for America too, which is we seem to have a lot of folks on staff with lived experience, who have a real passion and connection. I I will hear sometimes from folks. I we'll have these conversation where where people can feel it. They've either been on these programs or they know folks who have been on these programs. And there's something really special about the way, not only we really appreciate that lived experience, but we know we're better for it. And so some sometimes we'll get like, I never knew I could work at a place like Code for America. And, yes. We're here. We want you. So please, please, listeners, like, join in. Look at Code for America. Join our brigades that we have out there that are volunteer opportunities to get to know the kind of work we do on a hyperlocal level, and then join us.
Another thing that's going on is, actually coming up here soon on May is, obviously, the Code for America's summit. For folks that aren't familiar with that event, can you talk a bit about it and, well, why y'all put it together? Yeah. Well, I am,
really excited. It's gonna be the first one that we've done in DC, which is exciting to be in a different location. And I I think right right now where we are with digital delivery, with the evolution of civic tech, it is also really exciting to have this kind of convening. The beginning of Code for America, and Code for America Summit was really a place where civic technologists would get together. Engineers, like, working in cities, city government coming together. And I still we still really want that kind of people coming together, doing their thing, understanding what people are doing, but it's also a moment to hear some of the big ways that cities, are changing what they're doing, whether that was when, secretary Buttigieg was mayor. He came in and talked about the the sewage system and how he was changing that up. Or lieutenant governor of Michigan Gilchrist who came in and talked about criminal justice reform. Or you have academics who talk about economic security and the ways that government and technology can actually work together to improve economic security for all people. And so the kinds of conversations that happen, it feels innovative. It feels alive. It feels like people not only are trying to solve some big problems, but that it can be solved. And I, I encourage folks to join us, whether that's in person, whether that's virtual, because this is a conversation that really is setting the stage and foundation for what we as a country, as a civic tech environment, as a government can be as we move forward, and we need everyone's voice in that.
As you mentioned there in your answer with, like, in person or virtual, this is a a hybrid setup is is what I've gathered. With those opportunities, are there unique challenges in trying to put together a a hybrid event like that well?
Yes. Yes. And yes. I I think we are in the, taking on challenges space in general. And so it's just one of the many, challenges we are taking on and trying it out. And so there's a certain level of grace we talk about at Code for America with each other, with the systems we're trying to change. That is gonna be no different at this summit. That is for the first time hybrid, first time in Washington, DC. And we have no idea, even a couple of months out, to know or a month out to know, what the environment's gonna be on pandemic. Right? And so, we do it with a sense of humility and grace, but, it it is just like our virtual. It ended up being a really cool moment for people to come together in whatever place and space they were in, and so I'm excited about it.
So I I realized this might be like it like, trying to ask a parent for, like, who's their favorite child. But I still have to ask this question anyway. Like, are there any are there any sessions you're, like, especially excited for?
You know, for me, it's the puzzle of it all. It I mean, I I one of the things I love about the civic tech space is that technology alone isn't gonna answer the question. Governments or alone isn't gonna answer the question. Civil rights organizations are, you know, can't do it alone either. The the reality and even in the word gov tech, civic tech, it's bringing different worlds together. And part of what I love about our convening is that it is bringing people together in different kinds of ways. And so, my favorite moment or I'm I'm anticipating. My favorite moment will be stepping back and looking at how people are interacting together.
If folks are listening to this and, they're going, hey. Like, that sounds like an event that's for me. How should they try and get involved there? Summit.codeforamerica.org.
Join us in person, virtually. We're excited to have you.
Amanda, thank you so much for hopping on the Civic Tech Chat here and having this conversation with us today. I have no doubt folks will, have some interesting thing to learn interesting things to learn and and take another day.
Thanks, Ryan, and I appreciate you continuing to have these kinds of conversations. It's how we make the world better.
You can follow us on Twitter using the handle at civic tech chat. Visit us on the web at civictech.chat, or subscribe to us for content updates wherever it is you download your podcasts.
