82 Community Engagement
We are joined by James O'Brien, CX Lead at Seam Social Labs(https://www.seamsociallabs.com/our-team ) for a conversation about community engagement, including chats about inclusion, co-creation, bias, and the power of language.<br><br>### Resources and Shoutouts:<br>- Winning on Purpose (book)(https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58090620-winning-on-purpose)<br>- Frankenstein (book)(https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35031085-frankenstein)
Top Keywords
- community 0.012
- third spaces 0.008
- black women 0.007
- black 0.007
- community engagement 0.007
- spaces 0.007
- work 0.006
- cocreation 0.005
- engagement 0.005
- third 0.005
- communities 0.005
- affect change 0.005
Transcript
Hello. I'm Ryan Cook, and this is Civic Tech Chat, a show that looks at the way technology, politics, and policy impacts the world around us. The tools we use, the way services are delivered, and how we talk about and set policy all shape our society. We'll gather around and have a chat about these things together and more. Before we get started, I do wanna let you all know that we've started a Discord for the podcast. There will be a link with an invite down in the episode description. Do feel free to go check that out. It's a small community right now, but hoping to grow it. It's a great way to reach out to me and let me know things that you might want us to cover or to just hang out and talk about civic tech. Anyway, let's go ahead and start the show. James, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do?
Hey, Ryan. Thanks for having me today. Pleasure to be here. My name is James O'Brien, and I'm the CX lead over at Team Social Labs. Team Social Labs works on creating solutions that make analyzing qualitative data easier for public servants to allow them to get to equitable outcomes, faster, essentially. I it's a small start up, based in New York City, so I wear quite a few hats. But, overall, I jokingly tell people that my job is to make sure people say nice things about us.
And what would you say is your personal why? The thing that drives you to get out of bed each morning and do all those things.
Wow. That is that is a deep question. I think that we could probably sit here for the next hour and go and go through our the personal why and unpack that. But I think at a high level, I I grew up in Brooklyn. I just did grow up in a low in in Bushwick. Shout outs to Bushwick, if anybody here knows who where Bushwick is. I grew up low income, you know, low income, for probably up until I hit my late teens or early twenties. And really the the experiences that that I went through as a youth really shaped me and made me want to become an educator. So that is what I formally studied. That's what I went to undergrad for. For grad school, I studied English and I became an English teacher in a school that I actually attended as a youth. So I was teaching down the block from the house that I grew up in. And through that experience, while I'll be a great experience, I think I in doing that work, I had so I affected so much change in the young lives in front of me, and I think I was really yearning to affect change outside of the four walls of my classroom. And I found that exceedingly difficult to do within the structure and system that is the DOE. For as many great things that it does do, there are, you know, some things that I think definitely could be changed. So that's when I kinda, like, looked back. I finished my masters, taught for an additional year, and I was like, I think I wanna move to an organization where I have more autonomy, and more freedom to really affect the change and work on the problems, that are near and dear to my heart.
Are there any videos, books, podcasts, or other such media that you would recommend to the folks out there listening?
Yeah. Well well, they definitely stumbled around, upon the best podcast so far. So they they did step in the right direction if they're listening to this. Right now, I would say, work related, kind of professional development. I'm reading, Winning on Purpose. I forget the name of the author, but it's all about, it's really all about customer success and how to, like, really center center your approach, your strategy, and your business around customers. And I think that from a professional development and work perspective, that's applicable in private and public sector. Right? In public sector, as constituents, we are the customers of government services. And I think, because this is the English nerd in me. I'm rereading Frankenstein. Always such a good read. So if anybody yeah. Frankenstein, great read as well.
I think we can go ahead and make our hop over to the main topic for this conversation, which is a chat about community engagement. When we use that term community engagement, what does that mean to you?
I think community engagement in my in my personal life definitely meant different things until I got into kind of the civic tech space. Before I got into the space, community engagement didn't really really didn't mean anything to me, because I was never engaged. Right? Like, none of my local representatives, no nobody ever and within my community that from a, government perspective, not even community boards, these were not institutions or entities that I engage with. I never saw them. I never spoke to them. Right? So community engagement didn't really didn't really mean much to me until I got into the civic tech space, and that's when I got to see really the breadth of what community engagement is. So now how I would define community engagement is really any interaction that a community member has with a governing body. And that governing body does not necessarily have to be, political in nature. Right? We could be talking about institution institutional leaders within the community but, yeah, that's that's how I would define community engagement now.
How is this unique when one is coming at it from the public sector perspective?
I think from the perspective of being a public servant, and I will I will answer this question as, like, the former educator James. I think it's unique because we think of community engagement as this very formal, kind of process where there are the steps to follow. And while that is true, there's also the other side of community engagement where you're at the bodega and you see right? You see the parent of a student, and you have that quick interaction and conversation as you're both getting coffee before you go into the workday. So I think it's unique because there's this very formal, type of community engagement that happens when you're when you're a public servant. But then this also what I would consider this more informal, unstructured form of community engagement. And I think both are equally as impactful and powerful, and both should both types of engagements should hold the same kind of weight, and be able to go back and take take both of those experiences back and let that influence and inform, kind of, like, the processes and decisions being made.
As you've thought about community engagement from that perspective, have you run into any entrenched entrenched assumptions that maybe don't quite match up with things that actually work in in practice?
From, like, that larger, kinda, like, policy perspective, not necessarily. But, again, as as, as former educator James, I can say that I have definitely run into those kind of, like, informal conversations with folks and have definitely had my own my own bias, my own assumptions being challenged, particularly when it came to really just some of the parents, of my students. And one example I mean, it's happened actually quite a few times. You I would have a student that difficult is not the word I wanna use, but for whatever reason, we may be having a bad week. And I can't get a hold of a parent. A parent is extremely difficult to get a hold of. And there are certain assumptions you start to build when you don't know when you don't know the when you don't know these parents, when you don't know what's going on in their lives. And then, you know, you think, well, they're not that involved. They're too busy for their kid. I need to get other, other authority figures involved. But then in those informal moments when I get a chance to meet them and have that conversation, I learn all the reasons why I was wrong to assume those things and that I what I needed to do was find better ways to contact and get in touch with that parent. So because that parent wasn't picking up my phone call, I assume that they were not an engaged parent. But when I had that conversation with them, I find out they they they couldn't pay their phone bill. So I needed to find different ways to engage them on the terms that are best for them to be engaged to allow them to be an engaged parent. So I use that I I use that as a as an anecdote, which was, you know, for me, a really, really eye opening eye opening moment for me, and realizing the power in when you have those informal moments, sometimes your bias very often and the assumptions you make about people, kinda just gets really, really attacked, and I think that that's powerful and important in us meeting people where they are.
Hearing that story, it sounds like you had that moment that made you realize, like, oh, I need to take this step back and learn more about, use that phrase, like, meet them where they are. It sounds like kind of the necessary component of that was even to realize there was, like, a different place to meet them at. What advice would you give someone as they, like, hit that moment where it's where they're kind of trying to realize, like, is this the moment where I need to step back and, like, do that extra leg work? Or yeah. Yeah. Like, what kind of advice would you give that person?
I think if one were to hit that moment, the advice I would give them is, one, I hope that that is a moment of reflection where they can now really critically look at what other biases or assumptions are they making about the groups, the people, the institutions that they're interacting with that they can, like, maybe even write down and say, okay. Let me investigate this. Why do I think this right now? And to to listen, to listen and really approach that particular situation in that moment, but other moments going forward from the perspective of, let me listen and let me give people the benefit of the doubt. Hey. I tried this thing. That didn't work. Let me ask that person. What is the best way for us to move forward in achieving this common goal that we both have? So, yeah, I I think if I would just summarize, you know, reflect on all of the biases and assumptions from a critical lens at that moment. Listen, and partner. Partner partner with the with the stakeholders that you want to, move forward with.
What sort of challenges do you think folks in government face as they try to engage communities in that more inclusive and equitable way we started to talk about?
Yeah. That is that's a that that's a tough one. I think it's so specific to well, one. Right? There's this, like, kind of, like, the institutional barriers and, like, red tape that different people at different levels of government have to deal with. Then there's, like, the local politics involved. Like, is it an election year? Because that adds a whole another layer of complexity to things. But then I think when you, you know, when you get rid of almost, like, the political red tape, maybe the, like, I can't do certain things and x y z, there's just the the capacity. A lot of the clients that I've worked with and, again, my experience as a public sector, as a public servant, as a as an educator, is that there's just really a capacity issue. Right? A lot of people want to engage the the communities they work with in more inclusive and equitable ways, but they don't have the time. They're already overworked. So we're talking about adding another ten, twenty hours to their already extended work week. And that is that that is that that is really difficult. Right? I I really do empathize because now you're you're trying to figure out what to trade off, and that that is really difficult. But I would say capacity is probably the number one challenge that I I've seen folks in government face when trying to engage, communities in more inclusive and equitable ways, and that I personally faced as well.
I imagine something that can be difficult is, if, say, there's a person in involved in one of these, initiatives. Maybe they don't have that personal connection or lived experience to, like, immediately relate with a community. Are there ways that that person can try to still effectively connect?
Yeah. I think I actually face this a lot as in teaching. I'm gonna keep going back to teaching all the time because we're going down memory lane right now. But I face it. So I went through a program called, for context, New York City Teaching Fellows. It was it was a cool program. It really, like, you you get your bachelor's, you spend a whole summer with, like, six fifty five hour weeks of training and education, and then you get into a classroom, in September. So it was like a fast track to teach. And in that program, they're recruiting not only they're recruiting people from all over the country. Right? So it was like teach for America, but your assignment will be in New York City specifically as opposed to all over the country. And many of the people in my cohort were not from New York at all. Not not even from the state. They were just from all over the country. And that was, like, that was a big topic of con conversation throughout not a lot of training, but just, like, dialogue with other cohort members between people who are from out of state and people who are from in state versus people who are from the city. I think folks who don't have a personal connection or a similar lived experience, the communities they're trying to work with, some key ways to connect with communities is, one, to listen. Right? I wanna go back to that. Like, being an active listener, like, is very powerful because it can show your allyship and show that you recognize and respect, hey. This is not a space for me to speak. And I thank you for allowing me into this space to be a part of it, but I do not wanna take away from the people whose space this is. So I'm just gonna listen. I'm not gonna talk. And I think that that that in and of itself is really powerful to say, I'm gonna let I'm gonna let the other people in this room talk because this is not for me to speak speak on. But two, just getting involved in the community. There are a lot of different, like, local like, grassroots organizations within different communities doing great work. So getting involved with those organizations, finding out what our community needs, reaching out to your local community board. Yeah. Just really getting to know the community and getting involved within the community, and the way that the community wants you to be to be involved. And I think that starts with listening to what the community wants and needs.
In the chat we had beforehand to prep for this interview, you mentioned something interesting about the power of language and how the way you use it can kind of frame a situation from different perspectives. I think you used an anecdote where I don't remember exactly which group it was, but you mentioned, like, you can say something like a group is less likely to get VC funding. But another way you can frame it is to say, well, VC funders are less likely to give funding to this group. Can can you talk a bit more about, like, the the difference and how that plays a role?
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm I'm a firm firm believer in this. This is something I I practice and preach, personally and professionally. I think language is super powerful, and it is it is unconsciously shaping the way we think about things to to exist in the world. And in that in that example, it's black women or black women are less likely to get funded by VCs, and that is creating an unconscious bias. Every time you hear it, you are hearing a reinforcement that black women don't get funding. What you're not hearing is the opposite. VCs won't aren't funding black women. And what the first is doing is reinforcing this this bias in you that makes you eventually think, okay. Well, the VCs are funding all these groups of people, but are overwhelmingly not funding black women. What's wrong with black women? And while that might not be the conscious thought process, this is almost like what's happening in the background. And you hear that over and over. You hear that enough. You hear that maybe for a decade. You become a VC, and now you're viewing black, black women who are trying to receive funding as maybe higher risk, and you're less likely to fund them. Whereas when you flip that on its head and you reverse it and say VCs are less likely to fund black women, now now the unconscious bias being associated is but what's the problem with VCs? Why are VCs not funding black women? And I just think that that is, you know, I think that that that power of language is super super powerful in in the way we talk about communities who have historically been left out of the conversation. It's important not to put the onus on those communities for being left out because they were intentionally left out. And it's something, you know, just another quick example that might be that is more relevant to this conversation, and then I'll stop there because I can go on for days, is when we when some people call communities that they're trying to reach hard to reach. Hey. The Spanish speaking population in my in my jurisdiction is hard to reach. Do you have any advice about how I can speak to them? They're not hard to reach. They they exist. You have access to the data of where where the Spanish speaking population lives, the ZIP codes, the streets, etcetera, you know. You have access to all this data. Those that particular group is not hard to reach because now you put making them the problem. Really, when you flip that, it's why can't I reach this group? And then when you flip that on its head, you might unearth some really nasty and important things that need to be addressed first. And maybe it's because there was some gross gross injustice against the Spanish speaking community by our previous administration. So they don't trust the government. So it's not that they're hard to reach. It's that they do not want to engage with you as a government representative. So now you have to do the work of rebuilding that trust, because you cannot expect somebody to have a conversation with you if they don't trust you. See, I just think I just think language is really, really powerful, and the way in which we frame things is super important. And I think it's I think it's really important for us not to put the the burden on groups on on groups that have historically just been left out of the conversation, especially when if we are trying to pull them into the conversation now. Like, I think it's important to acknowledge that that burden goes on goes on others.
I think that's what you're pointing out is really important. I like your choice of these burden as well, because I think that flipping language, what you're in, like, what I'm hearing you describe, is effectively like a decision on where you're putting responsibility to make the system work. And it's a like you said, like, if if a group's been left out, it seems rather unreasonable to then expect them to somehow themselves fix the gatekeeping system that kept them from being involved in the design of the thing that kept them out. It's it's it becomes like a weird circular reference. It's particularly you mentioned the VC example. Right? If you put the onus on black women to somehow find a way to, like, to get VC funders to fund them, that that that seems strange to me when really it's the folks giving the funding or the gatekeep keeping mechanism. That should be made more equitable in theory. Right? Like, so they should have the responsibility to find a way to fix that. All that's to say, like, I I think that's, like, a very keen observation you're making there about, really how words assign the way we're treating a system. So it's, like, more than just the words.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I I actually I really appreciate you stepping in there because I kept saying burden, but burden of responsibility is exactly exactly what what I was trying to say. It's that burden of responsibility that is you know, I would just be echoing you. Right? You're putting it on the on the people who don't have the power to change anything, and that we're never given the opportunity to have the power. And I think that one one last thing and then I I can I can stop there unless you wanna keep going on this particular point? But and I think you you you point to something to that when you talk about that gatekeeping mechanism, I think it's important to also to recognize who has the power to change things, but then also to step back and comparative and do some comparative analysis. And in the VC right? In the VC example, if the if the onus is put on black women, I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. I know that black women receive less than 1% of VC funding, in The United States. That's a that's that's a very small portion of the pie. And I don't know the exact number, but the number that white cis male founders get funded is exorbitant. It is, like, miles and miles away as upwards of 80%. And I think that when you have that stat or that comparison plus understanding what are the levers and mechanisms of mechanisms, excuse me, of power, then you can start to really understand a full picture where it's like, okay. Well, maybe we can explain some of this away by saying there are less black women founders, and and to fund. But are there so many less that that disparity is that is that that wide? So I think yeah. It is I don't know. Sometimes sometimes when I think through, you know, looking looking at the comparative stats and about those levels of power, it sometimes can be a bit saddening to see how how far we've come about talking about equity and and talking about needing progress and change, but then to see especially especially after, like, 2019 to see that there's so many things that still the needle has not really been moved on.
Something I'm kinda hearing in in there as you describe that is there's kind of this I I think, thing that's echoing where it's like if say someone's listening right now and there's someone in either in government or maybe they're, I don't know, maybe they're a VC funder, and they're going like, oh, yeah. Like, that that doesn't sound good. There's like a need for folks in those positions to be willing to kinda embrace the discomfort. Like, no one wants to think like, oh, I am in charge of the system that's doing all these unfair things. But unless you're willing to embrace that discomfort to even explore the problem, like, I don't I don't know how you can expect to make any progress on it.
Yeah. A 100 a 100%. And I think a 100%. A 100%. I was just sorry. My thoughts were going. A 100%. I I do think that it's important to experience that discomfort, and I think especially now where we have this especially since on the hills of 2020. Right? We have we have all these on the on the hills on the unfortunate hills of George Floyd's death. We have this call for change that has happened. And I think what has happened in the past and what we've seen now, even now is that very often when a change is called for, it falls the burden of responsibility falls on the groups that need that change to be successful. So then you have those groups leading the charge. And to your point, I think the people in charge who who don't come from those lived experiences need to be able to sit in in that discomfort and recognize how much power they have to be allies and to not only affect change, but rapidly affect change. Right? Like, it we we can have it's we can have more black VC funds pop up, and that will that focus on funding black founders, particularly black women, and that'll start to close that gap. But if we just had VC funds, period, start to focus on that, then that gap rapidly closes. But that that, again, that requires that requires an acknowledgment of we are a part of a power structure and system that has intentionally left out certain groups. So we have to not only acknowledge that, but now we have to work work to circumvent and fix that. So it's an uncomfortable space to even be in, but then there's also that discomfort of acknowledging that you are a part of it maybe without an you know, a part of it intentionally or unintentionally.
In the spirit of inclusion, I've heard folks mention this idea of engaging in cocreation with the community that's going to be impacted by a thing. When we use that terminology, cocreation, what are we really talking about?
Cool. I love this question, Ryan. And I will say I really appreciate you, almost like starting a lot of these dialogues and flows with level setting and definitions, because just really quick to go back to that power of language. Sometimes we jump in rooms, we have conversations with people, and we throw out terms like cocreation, and that can mean five different things to five different people. And when we don't level set, that's when sometimes we don't find alignment, and we're not able to make progress. So I appreciate that. Co creation to me is getting stakeholder buy in from the communities that you want to solve issues for with. It's yeah. It's it's it's to me, it's that simple. One that simple in theory, not that simple in practice. And one example of what that looked like for me was at the beginning of the school year, I would scope out my entire year. Right? I have all my my units. I have all my major milestones that I need to hit working backwards from the state test because that was unfortunately the, you know, the baron the the the big unit of measure for my success and my students' success more importantly. So I knew what I needed to teach them, but how I taught it to my students, that was really that was really up to me. That was my prerogative. I could teach short stories. I could teach novels. I could teach, you know, non nonfiction. We could do movie analysis comparatively. Like, we could do we we could do, however I wanted. Right? Like, the sky was the limit, as long as the skills were there. So what I would do at the beginning of the school year, the first the first week we would do first two weeks, we do, like, grammar stuff because I was like, I need y'all how I need y'all to know how to use an Oxford comma. That's gonna be necessary in this eighth grade class. But, afterwards, before we jumped into the units, it was like, hey. Here are all the skills I need to teach you. Here are the units that are not movable. Here are these other three units where you have power to tell me what you want. Here's what I've seen work best. Here are the different type like, here's if we did nonfiction, here's the major activities we would do, the text we would read, etcetera, etcetera, gave them the options. And I left it up to students. They will go into the groups, they'll go through everything, see what they like, see what they didn't, do some research, and they would tell me what they wanted to learn how they wanted to learn, what I had to teach them. So I gave them the power to affect things that they could affect. They couldn't change what I needed to teach them because that was immovable. That was, that was how we were both being measured. But how it was delivered was something that they could choose, so they got to choose that for for specific units. And what I found that to do was really it was really powerful in giving them ownership of not only their education, but it made life much easier because they felt in charge of their education, not like they felt in charge of their education. It wasn't just, hey. I have this guy in front of me telling me what's best for me. I have a voice and a choice in choosing what I want to learn. And I think that cocreation from that perspective, that's the way I do approach it, it can get is a really powerful tool.
That's really interesting. I I hear in your story, I think, a couple of themes in there. One is that there's that initial alignment on constraints, constraints where there's these certain things that it's out of my control, it's out of your control. Like, our autonomy for either of us doesn't really reach there. But then that's like, once that kinda guardrail is set up, like, you're you're kinda making that effort to protect and nurture this person's autonomy as they figure out, like, how can I how can I embrace that constraint and learn and and kinda live within it? Yeah. That that that just sounds like really, really interesting. Like, what did you find was the, like, kind of the the end result of of taking that action?
I have two kinda key takeaways from that, and I might have a third by the time I get rolling. The first is that I had way less I experienced way less friction when I implemented this, which was for context in my second year of teaching. Because my first year of teaching, and I would argue that most people's first year of teaching, you kinda have no idea what you're doing. So you don't really have the foresight to maybe think of, you know, some of them some of some projects like this. So I experienced significantly less friction, when it came to the places where we had no autonomy. So when it was like, hey. We have to read this specific book or these specific this series of short stories because it's mandated. I I got way less friction because there was an understanding, hey. We know that you can't control that, mister O'Brien. We know that, you know, we can't really affect that change, but we know you gave us the opportunity to affect change where we could. So we're not gonna give you any headaches. We're gonna read this book even though we don't want to. So I experienced way less friction because I got that buy in from my students. And two, it really helped them better understand and advocate for themselves, in their own education. So I had students who and, like, what that what that looked like in this example and for for for my students was, you know, when they went through these process this process of doing the research to identify how they wanted to learn what it is that I had to teach them, I would have students that took more ownership in their education as the year progressed. And what that looked like was, hey, O'Brien. We oh, bit of context. When you're teaching, you you you often you should scaffold your work. Scaffold is quite literally like, well, you put up in a building to support the building while you build it. So if I'm teaching wow. Drawing a blank and can't think of a story. The Raven. If I'm teaching The Raven by Poe, I would have the base text, The Raven, which is I I forget. I think it might be, like, a ninth grade reading level. Then I would have a second version where maybe I am adding in some definitions for students. So this way as they read it, they have definitions there, and they're like, oh, that makes sense. Then I have a third version where not only I do have definitions, but I have questions where, like, they'll read a paragraph then they have to stop and answer a question. And the question is written in a way that it makes them just reflect on what they just read and has them summarize it back to themselves to see if they understood it. So really, each version you make are is supposed to be able to support students at different reading levels. So you can teach a ninth grade text to your eighth grade class even if you have ninth grade readers and fifth grade readers. So everybody can access the same text at the same time at the level that they need access access and support. So I would have students that would have that would voluntarily choose more difficult work or easier work because they felt that autonomy. They weren't just like, oh, I'll take whatever is easiest, or I'll just take whatever gets put in front of me, or whatever O'Brien thinks. They would I would have students that would take a hard version and go, you know, O'Brien, this is I know usually I take the ninth grade level stuff, but this one really confuses me. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna take the easier one. And I think that that is real a really powerful thing. And I think when you translate that over kinda, like, into the pub into the greater public sector, when you give constituents the power to be a part of the process and you and you build that trust, because that's really what it is. It's trust building in the communities you wanna work in. What the end result is is that you get people who are involved and actually care about being involved in these processes that ultimately affect their lives way more than it affects yours. And I think that that is not only beautiful, but right? Like, the end goal, we want people to be able to advocate for themselves, as much as they possibly can.
I think the story highlights really well something that, we had also talked about in, like, our prep conversation. This idea that, like, I think we've seen whether in the policy space or in kinda where tech touches it, this thing where folks have an appetite to try to bring in all this data into decision making. You know, they're willing to just say do UX research, or they're willing to look at the results of a survey and figure out where there's correlation. But it I get the sense from what you're saying is that maybe that's not enough when you're trying to kinda do effect change in a community like this. And that in your story, there's maybe ways folks can kinda take lessons to find ways to engage with the the community in a way that's more collaborative. What what would you say those those lessons are that they should be taking?
I think when we're talking about trying to engage communities in ways that are more collaborative, some kind of key things to consider when approaching that is trust building. Right? Does is what I'm doing establishing and building rapport with this community? That's that's extremely important. Is the second is, is it is it cocreation to an extent? Right? Like, do do these stakeholders that I'm going to engage with, do they actually have power in this engagement? And being really clear about that on the on-site. And I think that that communication in of itself is collaborative. Letting people know, hey. I can't affect change with this with x y z. I can't really affect change with a b c. I would love to know what you think about a b c. And here's why I can't touch x y z. My hands are tied. And I know that that's kinda all I have there, and I know that that's that still feels super ambiguous, and it's not like this, like, where you're like, do thing one, do thing two. But I think I think the the most important thing there, and I guess I have one more thing, is really when we talk about how do you engage your community in more collaborative ways, it's so specific and nuanced to that community. How does your community wanna engage collaboratively? What does collaboration look like to your community? And really starting there. Because I think there's no one shoe fits all. But I think if you start with listening to community, what does collaboration look like to them, and then make ensuring that you approach it from a place of capacity building and trust building, I think you're you're onto you're onto the right road, right step.
So I I think something I also hear in there is, relates to something maybe I've seen from experience at work, which is that folks will tend to automatically buy into a change if they were part of figuring out what the change is in some way. Whether that's, like, you took some input of theirs and turned it into, say, part of the policy, whether, you know, you did a workshop and they kinda helped, like, figure out, like, what are the main concerns you should address or kinda, other activities you can do that kinda bring that. It sounds a bit like engaging in the sort of cocreation exercise helps you kind of accomplish that, but in this kinda community change making space. Am am I kinda am I picking up that theme correctly?
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I I believe that when you have cocreation, either as I defined it or even how maybe somebody listening right now defines it, I think, ultimately, it it involves collaboration with with community members and stakeholders at its very core. And I think when you have that collaboration, you are getting that buy in. And, right, to your point, that thread, right, you get the buy in, you you have less friction. When you have when you have less friction, you can do more. You are capacity building for yourself, and then also for the stakeholders and communities that you're speaking to. So I think I think cocreation is a great way to get that buy in, and I think other ways to get it really look like radical candor and, like, very transparent communication, and consistency. I remember, I have well, I have too many anecdotes for you today, Ryan. I'll be brief. This is this is a client's anecdote. A client that we're working on, some micro micro mobility, kinda like initiatives, within the region that they they were responsible for. And they had mentioned they said, hey. So we did some outreach, let's say over the course of three months. You know, we did the outreach. We came up with all our presentations and, you know, people said they wanted a we couldn't deliver on a. And I was like, oh, wow. That's really unfortunate. So they they were working with us on a few projects. So a few months later, I I I bring up something about community engagement, because we sit much more in the data analytics space, but we do provide thought leadership for for community engagement in the community engagement space. And this particular client goes, oh, yeah. People just, like, aren't really, like, trying to talk to us anymore. So I was like, woah. That compared to what you did months ago, you got, you know, a pretty solid amount a sizable amount of responses from your community members. So going back and looking, we started talking and trying to unpack it. This client never went back and communicated to the community. Hey. We heard you, but we can't do it. Because they couldn't do it and execute on what the community wanted, they just moved forward and never informed the community, and that broke trust. So now that community was like, oh, well, you didn't do anything with what we what we said. So we're just gonna like, going forward, we don't trust you to do effect change. Why would we talk to you? And this client went back double back to the community and made sure that even if there was no progress, they updated the community, and then they saw that trust being rebuilt. And they got back to those numbers the numbers, of responses that they were getting almost a year later. So I think, you know, kinda like to tie that off in a little nipo, I think getting buy in from stakeholders is extremely important. And, again, the way to do that would be some ways to do that would be cocreation, transparency, and consistency. Even, like, bad news is better than no news.
As I've read into the topics we've discussed, I found myself wondering if we're see well, what we're seeing is in some way response to this decline of a concept called the third space. And for folks that might not, follow that term or or be aware of it in their daily lives, it's kind of this idea that, you kinda have this space where it's like where community engagements happen. Those, like, incidental things where you meet someone in the community, maybe you find something in common. But it's just kinda having that place where those things can happen. In The US, at the very least, we've had a decline in easy access to those sorts of places that have historically fostered that community belonging. And, I think we've also if you look at some of the literature seen a decline in some of the feeling of belonging, in in kind of recent history. Participatory processes like cocreation seem like they themselves create a place for that, interaction to happen, that kind of bringing together effect. What's your take on this? Am am I kinda making a connection to something that's not really there, or or do you see something to that?
Well, you just you just brought me back to sociology one zero one, Ryan. So yes. I will start with saying I I I agree with your take. I think cocreation works to not recreate these third spaces, but to help build capacity within them and to help elevate them and lift them back up. I think in addition to that, I have two thoughts as it relates to third spaces, and that's and for context for people that that are listening, right, in in sociology, your first space is your home, and your third space is is work. And your, sorry, your second space is work, and those third spaces are everything in between. And I think something two two thoughts. The first being, I think it's really important that when people are trying to engage with communities that have historically been left out of the conversation, those third spaces are what we have. That that is what we have. So we were not being engaged at work, and we were not inviting, government government entities and bodies into our home, not not by choice at least. So those third spaces are where we existed. So I think it's important to realize that and try to tap into that in a respectful way. And there's so much literature that that that supports that. There's, for those listening, I think you can do some reading. I can send it to Ryan afterwards. Maybe he can link it, in the in the podcast. But so much medical outreach has been done in the black community through barbershops. And, you know, at at a glance, you might think, if you're not a part of this community, why barbershops? Barber shops are, you know, colloquially known as gathering places for black males to exchange news and information. I mean, we we there's that research, right, where people have there are organizations that really do outreach through barbershops, like, full blown organizations committed to that. Then you even have, like, movies, like, Barbershop with Ice Cube. Right? Like, the the these are comedy movies, but they are based in the truth that, you know, you build family at barbershops. Like, you go there, you trust the people there, you trust the elders there, you listen to them, and there's also, like, a little bit of gossip that goes on. But, like, it is a place of information exchange. It's a third space in black communities. So I think it's important for people to to if there's anything anybody takes away from this conversation is that if you're looking at trying to engage communities that have been historically left out, consider what are their third spaces, how do I tap into the leaders of that third those respective spaces, respectfully, and how can I get access to those spaces? Again, all respectfully because you are being invited in as a guest. You are asking to come in as a guest, not as a member. And then secondly, I think, especially with with with the pandemic, digitally. Right? Like, the Internet, the way we connect and talk, these third spaces have now really evolved and look different. I mean, me and you are me and you are on Zoom having a conversation right now, and prior to the prior to prior to COVID, I don't I don't know if we would have ever connected, which is super sad. That's a really unfortunate thing, and I'm so happy to have connected and gotten to know you, Ryan. But, these third spaces have now also evolved digitally. So I also implore that people consider what what spaces exist digitally where I can really tap into communities that exist, to better engage them and meet them where they are.
And this question may be a bit of a a put you on the spot kind of a question, but we'll we'll we'll go for it. I think you you pointed something that's kind of interesting out, which is that the concept of the third space is itself been in flux. And that can be something that's difficult as just a person to kinda grok and to latch onto and figure out, like, how do I fit in this continually evolving thing, and how do I interact with it? So, James, I guess for, like, you personally as also, like, a denizen that's, like, trying to find your own place and wherever the third spaces may be these days. What's your interaction with that like? And and maybe, like, how would that turn into advice maybe for for other folks trying to do the same?
That is that is that is a on the spot question. But I I think I think for me, it is it's, to your point, ever evolving. The spaces that I would consider, like, my third spaces. Right? Like, those cultural institutions for me looked very different three years ago. They looked very different six years ago, and they look different now. So for me, where I am personally, professionally, I actively seek out spaces that fit, where I want to see my life, again, personally, professionally, and where I want to find like minded change makers. So for me, some of those spaces on Slack, for example, like Code for America, Technologist for the Public Good, blacks in civic tech, black tech pipeline, black space. And it right? There's there's a trend there. These are communities and third spaces that are focused on, people who identify as black and or people who are working for in technology, for some sort of public good. So ci civic tech or public interest tech, however however one wants to frame that. And that those are spaces that I would not have been a part of three years, because those are not the spaces for me three years ago. But right now, those are the spaces that I find myself, really doubling down in and trying to put roots in, as I as I choose to grow and as I want to grow. I think for anybody listening, from a from a personal kind of, like, perspective, I think sometimes you have to really actively go seek out these third spaces if you weren't indoctrinated into them. And I think as you go to seek them out, you will then be indoctrinated into more spaces that really fits the way in which you want to move forward. I think professionally, if we're to get, you know, talking again about three d engagement, I think if you were what I would I'm using air quotes, right now, would you would would you consider yourself an outsider to some spaces? It's really important to find those leaders in the community that can bring you into these spaces. So you can better engage the communities that you serve. And I think a big part of that is is my philosophy of meeting people where they are. I think when we talk about engaging communities, irregardless of the sector you're in, you want to meet people where they are. You want to make it as easy as possible for people to engage with you. And particularly in public sector, it's a challenge because, you know, going back to what we spoke about earlier, there's that capacity, and that is a really real challenge that I recognize and experienced personally. But doing that work and figuring out a way to weave the work of meeting leaders in these spaces, is is gonna be key to success key key to the success of engaging communities in more equitable and inclusive ways.
As we draw to our conclusion here, I did have one last question for you, James. There might be some, say, government type folks listening to this conversation. They might be nodding along, but I've been saying, like, thinking. So I was like, yeah. Like, I really wanna, like, take what I'm learning here and and use it in the community I'm serving. What advice would you have for that person as they seek to take that that first step to taking what they've learned today and apply it?
Oh, first step. I'm gonna say I'm gonna say that annoying ambiguous answer that people people hate. I always get eye rolls when I say this, and I'm gonna say it really depends. It depends. It depends so much, you know, where you are, how you approach your work, the restraints you have around you, your capacity, but, you know, all that to be said to to to say you know, if I were to say at a high level, be authentic. Be authentic when you be authentic. If you want to engage your community in better ways and you want to build more trust with your community, the best way to approach that is to be authentic in your approach to doing that because that will go a long way in building that trust and building those relationships with community members. So that's kind of, like, the theoretical, you can't really touch it. It's kinda sticky. Practically, I think some things that I think folks listening can consider I mean, it is winter, so this is not this is not the best example. But maybe go to a block party in your in your neighborhood. Volunteer, at a local at a local org. Spend some time to talk to stakeholders when there's nothing to talk about. Right? Like, there doesn't need to be a problem for you to actually have a conversation with people. If you work in that in a public if you work in a public, if you work as a public servant in the space where you see the public coming and going, stop in the hallways. Hey. How was that experience for you getting your marriage certificate? What did you like about that? What did you not like about that? Make people make people feel heard. And all and lastly, I think one one thing that I think can be can be practically done as well is putting in systems systems, to get feedback. Really implementing systems of of getting feedback. I think that, you know, wherever you can, try to implement those systems. The more qualitative feedback the more qualitative the feedback, excuse me, the harder it will be to kinda dig through, but probably the richer it will be, and the more quantitative you know, the the wider set of of data you'll get, but likely less nuanced. So those mechanisms of feedback, try to try to weave them into your work as much as you can.
James, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Civic Tech Chat today. I I have no doubt folks are gonna find things in that conversation that they'll be able to take into their day or the things they're working on.
Absolutely. Ryan, it was a pleasure for it was a pleasure. Thank you for having me. This was a blast. And I think you and I have some third space stuff to talk talk about offline because I wanna I wanna keep going down that that thread a little bit. But thank you so much, and happy holidays.
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