Greg, thank you so much for joining us here on Civic Tech Chat. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about what you do? Sure. Well, first of all, I just wanna say thank you so much for having me on here. I've been a fan of Civic Tech Chat for a while, and so it's great, to be, I guess, on the other side of, of the audio. So yeah. So I'm Greg. I live in Washington, Washington DC, here in The US, and I currently work as a consultant in civic tech, I guess you could say. I'm, consulting for Nava. It's a public benefit corporation also based here in DC. And, over the years, I guess, I've worked in a bunch of different types of roles. Once upon a time, early in my career, I was doing a lot of data analysis work and GIS, mapping and and sort of geospatial analysis as well as design, graphic design. And then from there, I kind of continued some of that stuff, but also got into more, like, web design and development. And then from there, like, all sorts of I mean, policy. So I was working at an organization, the Sunlight Foundation, that was helping city governments around The US pass open data policies. So I ended up doing policy work as well as kinda program management, type work. And then from there, all sorts of different things. Other stuff focused on helping local governments better use data to improve service delivery. I, was doing some international work, working on the Latin American expansion of a a program in that realm. I also worked at Code for America, most recently, on a program focused on spreading Code for America's principles and practices to governments around the country. So, lots of different types of things. One other quick thing I wanted to say, is that I've been involved in volunteer civic tech for a number of years. So, back in gosh. I think it was 2015, I first got involved in the Code for America Brigade in Rhode Island, which was called Code Island. Everyone seems to like the name. And then when I moved to DC, I got involved in Code for DC, and then, you know, later ended up running it for a few years. So, lots of that. And I recently started a a substack that I can tell you about later.

Yeah. I think, so I know it's very cliche to say making the world a better place, but I I do like making the world a better place. And I guess specifically, like, the kind of way that I think about it is making the world a better place at a system scale. And what I mean by that is, like so I used to my old dream I don't know if I ever told you this. My old dream was to be an urban transportation planner, and I'm still very interested in urban transportation planning. But what, you know, what that has in common with civic tech or, you know, a lot of the stuff in the space that I work in now and that you work in now is this kind of system scale of things in in which, like, if you imagine, let's say you've got a teacher. Right? That's really important work. That is like a very different style of work. So that's very, like, one on one or, you know, one on on group type work. And I think that that is really incredible and and and really valuable. Like a teacher, social worker, paramedic, all those sorts of things. I personally like, it's not my number one interest, so I'm very glad that there are many other people, who are interested in it. But I guess the where my head kind of jumps to is these kinds of questions of, like, what does this look like at a bigger scale? And so, like, with transportation, the I've always been interested in that kind of system scale of things of, like, how are, you know, entire public transit systems operating or, you know, entire street, you know, networks of streets at a city scale or, you know, I don't know, airline networks, you know, things like that. And then, obviously, you know, that's you've got the system's part and then you have the really important role played by everyone along the way who is doing a lot of that, you know, some of the more sort of individual scale things. And so in the in this kind of realm, civic tech, gov tech, you know, there's stuff like that, I think a lot about, you know, about the types of public services that, I mean, all sorts of different types of public services, like how are they operating at a system scale, and how are things such as the design of different services and, operations and forms and workflows and processes and all sorts of other things. Like, how are those things impacting service delivery and what might you be able to do to improve that and serve a lot of people?

Is this,

when we look at kind of the examples of things that often get shared in our space, like, when people write case studies about things or, you know, inspiring they give inspiring presentations and all these other things, a lot of times, it's about the stuff, a, it's about the stuff that was successful. Right? You don't hear as much about the failures even though that's, like, a big part of a lot of things. But b, a lot of the things you hear about the most are kind of from some of the bigger government programs and, like, big, larger governments and government agencies and and teams. And so, like, for example, I know one time I was, I kinda created and and taught a workshop for, it it was basically about an introduction to principles of human centered design and agile development. And one of the piece of feedback that I got afterward for the, the government team that I presented it to was, like, they're, like, you know, the workshop was great, etcetera, etcetera. But, like, one thing is that the examples that were shown in the workshop were from things like, you know, SNAP SNAP benefits in California. Right? So like a major government program in the biggest state in the country. Right? Like, things or or, you know, other examples where it's like there were giant teams of people, maybe dozens of people working on something we have, oh, look, we got all these different researchers and all these different designers and all these different, you know, everything else. And, you know, they were like that, like, that stuff is great. Yeah. Like, it really is and it's inspiring, but it can be hard to kinda connect the dots for us where some of these for a lot of things they're working on, it might be like, there's only one employee who's doing this, you know, or like two employees. And so we need examples that are relevant to our scale of things where we don't have a giant team of people that we can throw at stuff. And I don't think we do a good enough job today of providing those sorts of examples and, like, resources for people in these kinds of situations.

while still living in that constrained space we've been talking about? Yeah. I think there are a few different ways, and, actually, there there are a few examples that come to mind for me. One is that, one time I was, back when I was working with lots of different city governments around the country, I was a colleague and I were working with a major Midwestern US city that, we had been working on a project with one of the offices in the city government, that was going to be, teaching them basically human centered design methods, and improving, certain things that that office created. And I think something we realized a few weeks into the engagement was, like, you know, they were operating with a pretty small staff office, only a couple people. Like, we basically had just one or two main points of contact for this project, which to be fair, like, had been the case on many other projects in other cities too. But I think, you know, having had all that benefit of past experience, we were I think by that point, we had really kinda realized that, like, a lot of times, if you kind of take a government that's starting from a very basic place and throw kind of too much stuff at once, it's not necessarily gonna stick. And so when we were working on this, like, I remember when we got to the point we're gonna do some usability testing, we had thought about, you know, we're gonna set up this big complicated thing and, you know, trackers for all these different people. And, you know, when we write up the notes from the sessions, we're gonna make a big air table and it's you know, there's gonna be this big, like, super organized thing. And it's like, come on now. Like, they they don't have the they're not about to go and do usability testing with, like, 40 people. They, like, they don't have anywhere remotely close to the resources for doing that. And, honestly, it's not even necessary for for the specific thing that they were doing that doesn't have that wide of a range of types of users who are using it. And so or at least as far as they knew. And so we kinda took a step back and we were like, let's do something more basic and, like, try to actually, like, do a really good job of showing how to do this and, like, at a level where it will be able to stick. And so, like, for our usability testing, like, during our engagement, we just did it with three people. Right? And after those three people, we did a synthesis session. And again, there was no big air table or any of that stuff. We were we kinda just sat down and looked at our notes from those three sessions and said, like, what are the things that stood out? And even from those three people, there are already, like, clear usability issues with, the site that that we had people testing. And so, like, you know, we were we were clear, like, this is a lightweight version. Like, like, yes. There's a lot more you could do if you were if you have more time and and more people, but you can still do things even, even under a set of resource constraints. And so and and I think we were somewhat successful. I mean, the person who was, working on that project or who had been our main point of contact was able to, like, get their job changed to be, like, explicitly focused on human centered design, which is great. Like, I I thought that was a very exciting win. Just, like, starting at a basic level and being clear that, like, basic isn't bad. You know, like, a step forward is a step forward. Like, there's a lot you can do just just introducing some, like, really basic techniques of, you know, whether it's different types of user research, usability testing, or different design stuff, or or whatever it is that you're working on. Another example that comes to mind is from the DC Government where, a number of years ago at Code for DC, actually, we had someone come in, whose name was Carissa. She is wonderful. And she was working on a project, inside her office in the DC government to redesign certain forms. I think it was like a group of five forms, but it was the paper forms. And, of course, you know, here in the world of, like, civic tech, gov tech, whatever, we're, you know, we're usually when we talk about forms, we're usually talking about digital forms or at least if we're talking about paper forms, it's usually like, how do we digitize this form. Right? And the premise for this project was like the like, they're not there yet. You know? Like, yeah. Of course, they all recognize. Like, yeah. Woo hoo. Like, digital forms are great. Like, having people be able to submit the stuff online is great, and, like, they would like to get there someday. But they would also like to improve the forms that they have here now today, and there's an opportunity to do so. And I first just really wanna appreciate them for pointing that out because it's so true, and pointing it out and acting on it. And so so they came Carissa came with, I think it was was five forms that they were looking to redesign. And I believe there were also, like, draft new ones that they were looking for feedback on. And I remember I was looking at them and, like, you know, I thought the whole thing was cool, but I was, you know, I was still trying to think of, like, suggestions. And I was like, you know what? Let me, like, create my own kinda, like, demonstration one that's, like, you know, if if I were to make some more suggestions on top of some of the changes that have already been made to one of these, what might it look like? And so so I opened up Adobe InDesign, you know, because, you know, you know, designee and and all that stuff, and I was really excited. And I remember she was like, you know, like, we, like, we can't do like, our these forms are gonna have to be, like, maintainable in Microsoft Word. Like, this is not, you know, InDesign, like, that's great, but that's not, that's not what is gonna work here. Which my, like, my very first reaction was like, oh, dang it. Like, I, you know, I was hoping to make, you know, a really nice form. Right? But then my second reaction was like, that's fine. Honestly, it was a little liberating because it was like, you could forget about, like, some of the really, like, fancy fine tuning that you can do in InDesign and really just focus on the fundamentals of how to make the form more usable. And, like, you can do a lot with Microsoft Word. And and so yeah. So it's like here we have this thing where it's like, we're not there yet on digital forms. We're just trying to improve the paper ones and, like, improve the paper ones on Microsoft Word. And I know that may sound like a disappointing project for a lot of folks, but, like, that is a huge step forward compared to the status quo in many cases. And they've had several more rounds of this. They've actually they've had events called Formapalooza, I think, a few times where they, got, let's say, a 100 or so people together, like, from the DC, you know, community, the public, invited people, and spent a day looking at forms and, like, picking through forms and and critiquing the forms, and talking to people from the government agencies that worked on these forms. And it was a super interesting event because, like, I remember we were, at one of these, we're looking at the school enrollment form or something like that. And it was, like, a really hard nut to crack because it's like we I think everyone could tell that, like, the status quo form was not great. But with all of the different kinda improvements that you might propose, like, you know, people would ask what about this, what about this, and then this, you know, the staff would say, like, yeah. Like, we, you know, we looked at that. Like, we've thought about that, but it then runs into this other problem or, like, this thing runs into this other problem. And so, like, I don't know. This stuff is really hard and, like, literally any progress you can make with it can be a huge thing. I guess one more thing. It's it's not so much a specific example, but I guess just a general observation. I remember a few years ago, I heard someone saying, and I think this is so true, that they see this kind of split in, like, abilities where it's like I think sometimes it can seem like things have progressed a lot in terms of, you know, government technology and and and civic tech over, let's say, the past decade or so. And it is true that there are certain governments that have had a lot of progress, but there are a lot of other governments that have not. And so I think there's there's some things that may feel like old news to some folks, but, like, this stuff is very much not old news in a lot of the governments around the country. And so, yeah, like, there's there are just so many things that may seem basic that can actually make a big difference. Flipping this into the other direction, I think sometimes these resource constrained environments have a lot to teach us. One example that comes to mind is the, so for different social programs, there are a lot of states that will administer those through the state government. There are some where the state government kinda does the high level, but then gives it to the counties to administer. And I remember having a conversation with one state, about their, some of their forms for different social programs, because that state had worked on, an integrated benefits project where you try to get different benefits programs. Imagine, like, Medicaid, I don't know, various other, social safety net programs. Instead of having people fill out many different applications where they're putting a lot of the same information, you it's where you try to get one application that lets people kinda check off. I wanna apply for this, this, and this, and then they can put in their info and then it goes off to those different government agencies. So this, I was asking the state about like how does that work when it gets to the county level and they're saying like, well, you know, it's like they'll they have departments that that do this, and they'll have different branches within that, that look at, you know, this person's eligibility for this program versus this program, for the versus this program, right? At least in some of the larger counties. In some of the smaller counties, they have people who, because the county is much smaller population and and the department is much smaller, these people are looking across multiple programs. Right? Like, one person may be processing someone's eligibility for multiple programs, which is not necessarily what you see in some of those bigger counties. And so the cool thing there is that those people in in the smaller county governments that we might think of as being, constrained are actually, like, experts on kind of the similarities and differences between the different programs and, like, the different, eligibility, you know, rules and requirements and where things overlap and where they don't. You know? Like, some of those people were experts in ways that, you know, in in some of the bigger counties where people were kind of where the caseworkers are more sectioned off into different programs. You know, some of those folks did not have as much insight or or or visibility across different programs. So there's an opportunity to learn from smaller governments and smaller agencies, you know, in in cases like this where they're able to you know, where they have individual people who are working on a wider range of things and can see some of those connections that sometimes get missed.

Yeah. That's a good question. Yeah. I think that there are, I guess, a few things. I mean, I guess you already said some of those things, but definitely, like, encouraging people to not jump to complexity is a big one. And, yeah, like you said, meeting people where they are, like like the Microsoft Word example, like, focusing on what incremental improvements can you make. A big one so an interesting one I've actually heard from from government folks in in different governments is where they kinda started out with high hopes and then ended up I've heard several different people who've ended up, like, asking people in every department, how do you use a computer if you use a computer mid sized city said that she talked to certain, like, department heads. You know, like, people up pretty high whose answer was, I do not use a computer, which is, like, kind of shocking. But, like, you you know, it's good to know. And, like, I remember talking to someone else who thought that his job was going to be working on open data, but then it turned out, like, a lot of the city's data was just so awful that, like, it turned into, like, improving data entry, like, working with department staff and, like, seeing how certain data is getting entered into computer systems in the first way and trying to get that cleaned up, which, you know, it's it may not be the sexiest thing in the world, but, like, this stuff really matters. And, so anyway so so but, yeah, getting a sense of really where things have right now, and, like, I think many times you'll discover pretty quickly that there are opportunities to do a lot of good starting at, like, a really basic level. And, you know, pursuing some of those rather than jumping to, you know, bigger or potentially more exciting things, can be an opportunity to do a lot of good. So I think that's one. Then another is, like, usability testing particular and and, like, user research are things where, like, they're obviously, that's, like, you know, it's a whole entire profession. You know, there are people who dedicate, you know, all day every day, you know, when they go to work to to doing that. But, like, there are still techniques that, like, people, you know, who don't have that as their job can learn. You know? Like, you can learn how to do usability testing. You know? You can learn how to do user research. You know? How to do different kinds of interviews. You know? How to ask the right questions. How to take notes and other things. Right? And you don't have to be the world's number one expert to still be able to get a lot of really valuable insights, you know, for your team. And so maybe you're someone who's officially a program analyst or, you know, I don't know, a million different different job titles, project manager, you know, whatever. Right? And and but there are opportunities for you, especially in the in the world of user research and to to get into some of this stuff. And and again, like, for a lot of things that is just not part of that's not part of the way things are. And to be fair, like, this isn't a criticism of the public sector, like, you can find plenty of businesses who, like, don't adequately test stuff with their customers. But yeah. So so helping, like, regular government staff, upscaling them on user research in particular, I think, is, like, a great way to pay big dividends even in resource constrained environments.

Yeah. And especially, like, something that can help galvanize support and, like, especially from the top level is if you are able to do like, if you can get people at the top of your organization, you know, department heads or whoever, you know, depending on the size of your organization, if you can get them to join some, user research or interview sessions or, you know, usability testing sessions, that can be like a really big eye opening moment. Even just watching it one time. Like, one time I was I mean, this wasn't even necessarily department heads, but one time I was running a workshop for people, and I had an activity there that was teaching them about usability testing. And I had them look at the, I basically had them pretend that they were a new resident in a certain town, in Massachusetts. And my task that I had for them was figure out when is trash day, which seems like maybe it ought to be really simple. But they, so they got going. So I was, you know, I was teaching them how to do it. So I had people in, I think, groups of three where it's like one person was guiding it, one person's taking notes, and then one person was the actual one trying to figure this out. And people learn some of how to do usability testing. Also, they had a huge moment because it was really hard to figure out. In fact, some of the groups that were going through this task literally couldn't figure out on the city's website what day was trash day. And they gave up and said, I would just look across the street and, like, look at which day my neighbors put out their trash cans, and that's how I would figure out what day is trash day. I guess how hard it was, which really made them think like, wow. You know? Like, definitely, like, yeah. That like, this you know? And and then you start wondering, like, do some of my own websites have these problems? Yeah. I think bringing people at the top into like, get a peek at some of this stuff can also be a big thing.

that interaction for folks listening? Yeah. So the way that I think about this is like I was thinking about this a few years ago actually at, you know, I was at a conference and and I saw, you know, this all these talks and and whatnot. And and I kinda noticed I was like, when people talked about government services, it seemed like most people were talking about it, like, services are just forms. You know? It's like they're just transactions. Right? Government service are just where you apply for things and then you get money, or you apply for things and you get permission for something, or, you know, you apply for something and, you know, some action is taken or not. Right? And that that's of course, like, a lot a lot of really important government services fall in that category. Also, a lot of other really important government services do not fall in that category. You know? I mean, think of everything from, like, schools, you know, education to parks, to airport security, to, you know, health services, to all sorts of different things, you know. Some of them will have transactions kinda on the fringes. Right? Like for accessing it, or finding out information about it or, you know, dealing with stuff like that. But, like, the bulk of the service is actually just delivered by human beings or by physical infrastructure. Right? So, like, if you like for public transportation, for example, like, sure. There are, you know, you need to if if you're riding a system for the first time, you might need to buy a fare card or ticket or something like that. Right? You may need to look at a schedule. Right? But that's not the service. The service is the actual transportation. Right? So, like, look at find out, like, where where is my bus in real time. Right? That's not the service. The service is the bus. It's just to be clear. Right? And so, again, you could say the same thing about parks or or, you know, public hospitals or or whatever else. And so and and and I I I think sometimes the operation side of things has been neglected a bit, at least in a lot of again, just in the the kind of civic tech and gov stuff that I see mentioned. But I do think this is changing, which is very exciting, because there are opportunities to do to have really big impact at scale. And actually kind of tying it back to what I was saying at the beginning when you're asking me, like, what's my personal why and what kinda drives me, and I was talking about how I you know, like, systems scale. Yeah. I I like kinda looking at things at a system scale. And and for the transportation example, so one of my favorite digital services teams in The US is in Boston at the transit agency, the MBTA, and they have a department there. It used to be called the customer technology department. Now I think it's like the technology innovation department or something. But, the name aside, it's they work on a lot of different projects basically. And some of them are public facing, so they worked on the agency's website, you know, stuff like that, but some of them are not public facing. Some of them are exclusively internal. And so they have, a pair of projects focused on improving operations of services. So they one for bus services and then one for some of their rail services. And so to use the bus one as an example, they have so you have bus drivers. Right? Driving the buses. There are also other personnel out in the field who work with kind of the management of, bus operations in the moment. And so they created this, bus operations in the moment. And so they created this app for iPads that, these personnel were gonna carry with them to help them in their jobs of managing bus service in real time. Because previously, what those people would be doing is they would have, like, giant paper schedules and, you know, be writing all stuff, also just stuff out on paper, and then they would have radios where they're, like, calling up, you know, bus drivers saying, hey, like, where are you? Or, you know, whatever. And so what this thing did was it it it it brought all of this onto a digital interface. It let them kinda, you know, enter information in there, see where the buses are in real time, you know, all sorts of stuff like that, which in turn helps them be much, you know, do a better job at managing buses, which is huge because the buses there, I think, have, like, hundreds of thousands of daily passengers. So, like, you're having a real impact on a lot of people, even though this is an app that the public will never see. That that I think that's huge. And they do again, like, all the kind of practice that we talk about, like, they do feel sorry, user research, out there in the field with these personnel, and a lot of really cool stuff. I've seen them give presentations at a number of conferences, and I never get tired of it because they're really awesome.

Yeah. I think one of the biggest ways that you know it's successful is when people start asking for more. You know, because with these kinds of things, it can be really tricky because a lot of times people hear your idea, and they might think, oh, yeah. I mean I mean, first of all, some people just it it's not on the radar screen as like I don't know. They they may not see the status quo as a a problem. Right? They may be so used to it. They may not realize that there's a better way of doing things. I think there's that quote that's like, you know, if you ask someone with a horse if they you know, what they wanted, they'd say a faster horse. They wouldn't have said a car. Right? Or like, you know, whatever. Right? And so, you know, so people don't always even realize what these opportunities might be. But when they do or like, you know, if you tell them about your idea, a lot of times people's reaction is like, that sounds great, but I'm afraid that like this, you know, I'm gonna have to like learn a whole new tool for my job. Like, I'm I remember the last time they tried to make us use a new tool and that was such a pain and it was so difficult to use and everyone hated it and they wouldn't listen to us and, you know, all that stuff. So, like, people may have bad memories of, you know, having had different kinds of tools or technologies forced upon them. And so, yeah. So there's oftentimes gonna be a lot of skepticism. Also, like, sometimes people are afraid that this new tool is gonna, you know, eliminate their job, which is, you know, a totally understandable concern. And so I think when you're really, you know, I think you're asking, like, what's an indicator that you've done things well? Like, if people are like, if you've gone through this and people say, great. Like, can we get more of this? You know? Or, like, could you be using this? Can we do this for more things? I think that's how you know that you've really secured the buy in of people, in your organization, which is huge

doing I mean, talking to people, you know, who work in these jobs. I mean, that's part of the idea here. Right? Like, doing user research and and usability testing with them. And then, like, making it clear that you are trying to help them in their jobs. Because a lot of times they you know, I was saying how they they've had different tools and technologies forced upon them. You know, in many cases, they were never consulted on this stuff. Right? It might have been someone at the way top of the department or even maybe someone in the procurement office or or whoever, that was making really critical decisions about this thing that people are gonna have to use every day without necessarily getting much input or or feedback from the people on the front lines. And so so, like, bringing them into this and, like, making it clear that the point is to help them and that, like, the central guiding light in making it happen is going to be their feedback and, like, testing it with them and and seeing if it works or not and and how it can improve in their experience. Right? Centering their experience, I think is is a key way to help get that buy in. And also, like, another thing can be making stuff optional. So I think one thing, I, don't quote me on this, but I believe, the team on on the, the project I was working the tool that I was talking about, I think it was, if or at least at first, it was optional. So it was like, we have this thing that you can opt into if you want. And I think it it ended up being so successful that more and more people started saying, oh, yes. Like, I I choose this. It might be mandatory now. I'm not sure. But even if it is mandatory now, it's mandatory after having secured a ton of people's buy in along the way.

When you're part of the decision, you naturally, like, want it to succeed. Is it am I kinda hearing you correctly that that's, like, a key portion? Exactly. And the other piece of advice I would give is, like, you might not get there by end. Like, this is really hard, and, like, sometimes it just it's not gonna be successful, and, like, I guess you should yeah. I think you should know from the start that, like, not everything is gonna be rainbows and unicorns, and and there might be some things where you encounter so much resistance that it's worth just shifting your effort elsewhere. If you if you're, let's say, an internal government team, sometimes you should also just go where people are more willing to work with you.

Yeah. I mean, actually, this relates to the thing I was just talking about. But, yeah, like, something I've seen or or just, you know, on this question of change management, I think something that I've heard from so many folks in so many governments around the country is they feel like there's this disconnect between the way that people, especially people who who kinda identify as being part of civic tech. The way that some of these people talk and the way that a lot of other folks in government talk, you know, that and I've had so many people say say to me, like, I feel like people are talking two different languages. And and sometimes it's because people are have different approaches to things. Sometimes it's because they may actually be talking about the same thing, but just literally using different words. And so sometimes it's just a question of, like, can you get people to understand that they're talking about the same thing in different words, can be big. And and sometimes that means accepting the words that are already being used, you know, internally. So, like, I something I hear a lot is, like, IT departments, like, will often talk about things in a certain way. It's it might not be the most, like, twenty twenty four way of of talking about certain things or or or, you know, the most whatever, the most design y way or or whatever. Right? But but that is perfectly good for, like, you know, what needs to happen. And so, like, sometimes you need to, like, just go to people and speak in their language, you know, like, learn the terms that that people are already using and learn to speak in those terms, I think, is big. So, like, one one I don't wanna get into too much trouble here, but I I think one example that comes to mind to me is the word digital. I remember one time I saw someone, kind of posing the question to to other folks in the civic tech community. Like, how do I get folks in government or, like, I'm working with the government. How do I get them to understand that the word digital isn't about technology? And the answer in my and that and that's, you know, under this, like, you know, like, a very niche definition of the word digital that I, like, perfectly respect, you know, of that it's, you know, about processes and and culture and and this other stuff, you know, not just literal technology. And I think that's, like, a great approach and mindset. However, just on this question of terminology, like, to this person's question, I think the answer is that you don't. Like, you you like, how do you get people to understand that, like, they their definition of a word is wrong? It just like, you don't. Just, like, talk to them and talk to them in language. Sorry. It makes sense. Like, understand and accept that the word digital for most people is about technology, and it's only about technology. And just, like, learn to work around that, you know. Use you know, if you wanna talk about other stuff, use their stuff, at least until, you know, maybe someone starts, you know, using digital with you in in this expanded way. But if that's not the way that they're talking, don't try to, like, make them feel stupid for not talking that way. That's one example. Another would be, like, I remember, someone, from a a major US city government, in the South telling me that he like, his old department or his old group team, whatever, was kind of like this innovation team inside that city's government. And they were seen as kind of like the weird people with all the colorful post it notes on the wall. And then he he was saying how there was a different office that was like a performance management and analytics office, and they were seen by people at the top of the city government as, like, the very serious people who were all about, like, results and and cost savings and and getting things done. And and I think that, like, the thing here, it's like, if if you let's say you're over in the the office that's seen as the colorful post it notes on the wall office. Right? Like, if you are not being seen as serious about getting stuff done, like, that's a problem. You know? And and, also, like, that's not an attitude that you should make fun of. Right? Like, getting stuff done is good. Getting results is good. Getting cost savings is good. Like, we save money for a reason so that we can then invest it into other programs or pay people more, lower tax rates, you know, however you wanna spend the money. Right? Like, efficiency is good, and I don't think people should be afraid to talk about efficiency and government being good. You know? And so, you know, I think just learning to talk about the things that you're trying to achieve in a way that matches how other people talk about that or at least can kinda narrow this gap, I think is important. Because I think sometimes people, depending on the background they're coming from, you know, they might talk in this very kind of, like, abstract, you know, design y way, whatever that's, like, totally well intentioned. Right? And, like, the yeah. I think the whole, like, people centered focus of of stuff is good. Right? But, like, the people who talk about efficiency and cost savings results, like, they also care about people. Like, that's that's what they're trying to do too. So I think, yeah, just, like, kinda bringing trying to close this gap in in language and, like, bring people together and help people see that they are marching toward the same place, and trying to get cultures to kind of these different kinds of work styles and cultures to sort of melt together, I think, can be key to unlocking

So I guess so this is, like, after people have already bridged gaps in terminology and and language?

for our purposes, like, is that the same as usability testing? Is it not? Is it could it be close enough? Like, can we talk about our stuff in that way? Anyway, that's just another example.

Talk to people. Definitely talk to people. Like, read read their stuff. That's actually that's a good place to start. Read, read about the the people who you're hoping to work with. Read about the stuff they work on. See if you can read about the terms of these for their work so that when you go in to talk with them, you can, like, talk to them about like, you can show that you've done your homework, you know, and that you have an under that you have spent the time to try to get an understanding of their work. And, obviously, by talking to them, you're trying to get a deeper understanding, I think is one. And, like, clarifying terminology. So, like, just asking, like, when you say this term, like, what do you mean by that? Or, you you know, it's another one. And and I think one way you can kinda do your homework on some of that terminology stuff is especially if you are if there is any documentation about existing kind of processes or workflows or ways of doing things, that can be a good place to see a lot of different terminology in one place. Granted in, you know, in some places, the state of documentation is not where where one wishes it might be. Honestly, I feel like in any organizations, usually not wherever in my wish it is. But, Yeah. I think building, something else that can really help is just, like, building informal connections with people. So, like, you know, if you can meet people at an event or, like, over lunch or, like, something like that, you know, where it's not just, high stakes, you know, businessy meeting, that can be an opportunity to, like, build a good relationship with people first. And then from there, dig into the the more, like, work stuff, which can create a foundation of, like, mutual understanding and respect. And even, you know, just throwing in the, you know, the fun stuff, you know, asking people about, you know, I don't know, their favorite ice cream flavor or or whatever. You know? Even, you know, the the cheesy icebreakers even, you know, can be a a a great thing. But, you know, I think really just trying to do your homework and show people that you've done your homework and, like, listen and just ask questions and listen before, coming in with answers is is can be big. And actually sorry. One other funny anecdote about the language stuff. I remember one time I was in a meeting in a a city government in the Western US, and there was this guy who was kinda like an a fellow innovation fellow type person working in, one of the central offices in the city government. And there we had this meeting where, you know, everyone went around and introduced themselves. And the icebreaker that I had everyone answer, I like this one, is, like, what's your favorite department? Like, inside your government, your favorite, like, department service, you know, whatever, something like that. And different people name the different ones. You know? People be like, I like, you know, parks and rec or public health or, you know, there's always the the person who says, I love payroll. That's my favorite one. Keep the checks coming. But, when we get to this guy, he's like, you know, I really don't like the word apartment because I think it it encourages us to think in, like, a siloed mentality, and we should really be taking, like, a a service centered perspective where we look across departments. Yada yada yada. And the thing was, like, I totally agree philosophically. Right? But in practice, it's like, oh my god. It's a freaking icebreaker question. Can you just, like, be a normal person and not wanna, like, smash the terminology? You know? Like, stuff like that. Like, don't do stuff like that. One other really funny example is I know someone from one, team in a particular government who, he's said that, like, they when they work with some of their, staff, who are more kind of on the front lines that they like this some of the people who who work for this team is, you know, they're people with a design background or, you know, tech, you know, whatever, things like that. And some of the frontline staff, when they encounter these people, he said they're like, this is just too much skinny jeans stuff for me. So, again, like, trying to not come off as, like, the skinny jeans people, can be helpful.

One thing. That's hard. I think one a big thing is just, like, there is so much opportunity to improve things in government or in lots of nonprofits and and businesses as well at the basic end of things. Or, like, you know, if you've been kinda deep in some of the stuff for a long time, there's stuff that may seem really basic to you, but, like, if put into practice, like, in a lot of places, that would literally be revolutionary, you know, or, like, could make so much difference in helping people. And so I think just kinda focusing really just trying to focus on a lot of the low hanging fruit, and also, like, I mean, there's things you may not even realize is low hanging fruit because you just kind of assume that, you know, whatever. I don't know. And so they're really just looking for opportunities to connect with people at a very basic level. You know, what I said about the terminology and whatnot, like, just, like, being able to communicate with people, create shared understanding, like, do just little bits of user research, like, even just, like, a bit of iteration, you know, and improvement based on, research and and testing things with people. Like, yeah, just even just a a little dose of that can do a lot in improving service delivery. And, you know, you don't need to have a giant team with dozens of people to have an impact.

Gosh. So many different types of materials. In terms of books, I would say well, okay. So Jen Palka, who is amazing. Jen Palka has a book called Recoding America. If you are in my the type of person who is on my LinkedIn feed, right, like, this I mean, you know, kind of in our little niche here, obviously, the book is pretty well known at this point, but, you know, it's it's making the rounds, and and has been doing so for the past year, but it's I mean, it's really is good, and especially I think for people who are not in this space. It it is kind of like a big, you know, wow. Like, you just read some of the stuff and a lot of people read about this stuff and it's the first time they're reading about, like, problems with procurement or, like, problems with, you know, whatever, different, you know, reporting systems or or whatever else, you name it. And so, so it's a great book and actually, I mean she has an essay called Delivery Driven Policy and even just like reading that is really good, so that's one. Another book, is book called The Fifth Risk, which is a good book about, like I don't even know how to describe it. It was, like, all sorts of different things that go on inside government that you never really knew about or appreciated, but have an impact on your life. And it was looking at, in particular, the the kinda government transition in 2016 and and 2017 and some of the kind of, messes that there were there. And, another, this is not related to government or technology or civic anything, but podcast. There's a great podcast called the mindset mentor. And it is it's literally like mindset types, you know, like, how to think positively, like, how to structure your day, how to, like, ways to be successful at x, like, ways to stop worrying about a b c. Right? Like, stuff that just it's really basic life stuff, but you look at their they have, like, 4.9 stars or something. And, like, it's it's really good and it's, like, advice. It's, like, a lot of it's cliche, but it's cliche for a reason. Like, it's, like, if everyone follow this advice, the world would be a different place. And, like, also, it's just hard to change lots of, you know, life habits and and whatnot. So it's I I just find the podcast very inspiring, to be honest, like, and, like, it's yeah. It's just, so that's cool. And then, a blog, really, one of my, favorite blogs is Slow Boring by Matt Iglesias. I think, if you like politics blogs, I think it's really good. And speaking of blogs, I started a Substack. If you're not familiar with Substack, it's a blog slash email newsletter rolled into one that, is so mine is called Civic Insider, like, insider, civicinsighter.com. Go check it out. And I I read about a lot of different topics. I mean, you know, some things kinda like some of the things we talked about here. I've had some recent ones related to public policy education, service design, different visual, design things, different procurement. I mean, all different things in kinda like the public sphere, and there's a further wide range of things that I have in the pipeline. I also am planning interviews with people. So, if anyone if you like Civic Tech Chat, also, like, hopefully, you'll like my, upcoming interviews with different people. So, definitely check out my Substack. And, yeah. I don't know. There's probably a million other things too.