Talking Tech w/ CDT's Newest, Katharina Kopp
Host Brian Wesolowski chats with CDT's newest addition, Katharina Kopp, Director of the Privacy and Data Project. She comes to us after having led the global privacy risk management program for American Express and establishing herself as a leader on privacy policy and digital rights advocacy for a number of NGOs.<br><br>Attribution: sounds used from Psykophobia, Taira Komori, BenKoning, Zabuhailo, bloomypetal, guitarguy1985, bmusic92, and offthesky of freesound.org.
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- personal data 0.006
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Transcript
Welcome to Tech Talk. Bye. CT. Tea.
Welcome to CDT's Tech Talk, where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives. I'm Brian Wasilowski, and it's time to talk tech. To kick off the new year, we are sitting down with the newest member of CDT's team, Katarina Ka. Katerina is the new director of CDT's data and privacy project, which is the new name of our old consumer privacy project. And by the way, we are going to be rolling out a refreshed brand soon. So, yes, we have a lot of newness at CDT already in 2016. Katerina joined CDT after an extended stint at American Express, leading their global privacy risk management program. She also has impressive digital rights advocacy jobs, having worked at or for the Health Privacy Project, the Benton Foundation, the Center for Media Education, the Bertelsmann Foundation, and the Aspen Institute. That is quite the list. Welcome to Tech Talk, Katerina. And of course, welcome to CDT. Well, thank you very much. I'm so glad to be here. So you actually started just before the new year. You've been here, I guess, a month now, something like that. What has been the most wonderful, refreshing thing that you've discovered about CDT since being here? Well, really no surprise. The staff is just amazing. The folks here Especially me. Everybody is very friendly,
especially you. Oh, okay. But really everybody is very friendly. And, really people are just incredibly smart. I think everybody knows that. But when you actually meet people, it just is very impressive. And I think also a surprise to some people who might not know CDC that well is the breadth and depth of topics that that CDC covers. I thought it's just privacy. A lot of people probably think that, but, obviously, it's much broader. The the free expression, the government surveillance, the Internet architecture piece,
and really just not just focusing on The US, but globally. So it's still really a privilege to be here and work with such a smart team that covers these important topics. I wish more people had that view of CDT. You know, it takes a bit a while, but it seems like people know us for one issue or another. And so many of these tech issues that we work on, it's it seems as though they need to be informed by all these perspectives. That's right. They all have an impact on each other. So that's why we do podcasts like these. We get to share that view. So this is a a return to the advocacy world for you as I kinda listed off in your little intro bio there. What was it that really motivated you to, you know, leave the corporate setting and come back to almost your roots in advocacy? Yeah. Well, actually, I would like to think of myself as always being an advocate. So regardless of the setting,
I I think of myself advocate. And I think most privacy professionals who work in the private sector, always know and feel that they're advocating for privacy for best practices. So that's what I've what I've done for the last ten years at a large global, financial services company. Company. But it's true. After a while, I felt that my insights and my skills, should best be used again in the public policy space. And beef because I feel that this topic, privacy data practices, is so central to to really our times and, to the future, I think, of our society that I felt it was important to be engaged again and not just implement policy, but actually shape the rules of the game. So let's go to that a little bit. I mean, we just changed the name of the project itself from consumer privacy to,
data and privacy or privacy and data. I forget which one's coming first. Not a good sign. Privacy and data. There we go. So what are some of the things under, you know, with this kind of new frame that you're hoping to explore, that may be a little bit different than what CDT used to do in the past just under the consumer privacy lens? Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you're you're asking.
I think this is not so much a radical shift, but it's a little bit more, shift in emphasis. And I think it's already what the team started doing, and we're just sort of making it more explicit. So we felt that the the focus just on the consumer is too narrow, but we really need to look at privacy and data practices and their impact on the individual and all her, activities in society, whether she's a consumer, a citizen, a voter, a patient, a student. So really, looking at at the whole, gamut of issues. And then also looking at not just the impact on the individual, the consumer, but also broader on society. So we we wanna sort of pursue the question on how how is the questions of equity affected by these data practices. And then I think also the focus just on privacy and personal data is, again, a little too narrow. We'd like to look at data and and discriminatory data practice generally. And, it's important to look at privacy and personal data. But, even if individuals are, not identifiable, they can still be reached in a sense. And so important decisions and implications can can be made profiles can be made about them that have significant
impacts on them and society at large. So just sticking with the with the focus on personal data is to narrow, to really get Could you expand on that a little bit? I'm intrigued by that. You know, what sort of things are you going to be looking into around that kind of broader
perspective? Yeah. I mean, like if you just think about profiling. Right? We in in marketing, it's not just, you know, whether we know exactly whether an individual has behaved in a certain way. It is, you know, whether we can, reach a person because their cookies are placed on them and we can market certain products to them. So, certain products to them. So, if we're just sort of focusing, oh, we just de identified data and we, you know, we are we're good to go, I think that's too narrow. So we need to really look at So essentially, you're saying that decisions are made made about an
individual whether they opt in or not and whether it's identifiable data or not. So kind of going deeper into that lens beyond just deidentification.
And I think another good example also is, that, you know, sometimes, an individual might decide, yes, I opt in to use personal to have my data being used, but an individual that is just like that person who opted out, will still be affected by that decision of the first individual. And so they will be sort of profiled in a similar way. And so that I think that gets at issues that are beyond
strictly privacy and and the use of personal data. Cool. So what are you know, you kind of talked in the broad about a lot of the issues we're gonna explore. Are there any specific projects or initiatives that you're planning in 2016?
Yeah. Sure. I mean, I'm still, as you said New year. New year. We'll give you time to make some choices anyway. And I I really feel like it's important to listen and to really understand all the great projects the the team is working on and to to talk to our partners and to the policy community in general what what some of these sort of really important issues are. So I'm I'm still a little bit in listening mode, but, obviously, we are making plans for this year. And given that we still don't have a baseline privacy legislation, we will be busy That'd be a nice thing to have. We will be busy. You know, we continue to be involved in drones drones issues, a debate, debate debate on wearables, workplace. These continue to be important topics. Another, area that will be coming up is the, FCC, the Federal Communications Commission's rulemaking on broadband privacy,
which we believe is a really important topic and a great opportunity to to ensure that consumer privacy protections are in place. What when you say broadband privacy, what do you mean? I think a lot of people don't necessarily think of their broadband and privacy and how they,
you know, connect, you know. Right. So this is really the the providers of broadband Internet access services. So that's anything from fixed and mobile telephone, access to to the Internet, and the and the privacy protections have been not very, clear, or really sort of codified. And, really, individuals cannot if they wanna engage in the Internet, they cannot avoid interacting with these service providers. And we wanna make sure that the the personal information, that they're either provider's account information or as part of their interaction or, you know, moving around on the Internet. All this data,
should be protected in in a transparent way. Yeah. In a lot of ways, that's the scarier side of it. The the, last part that you covered there, like, your Internet traffic. Like, what are you going to? What are you visiting? You know, all that sort of stuff. Right. You know, sure, the account information you have, just like a lot of your account information with any service provider or company you interact with is important and has a lot of personal information. But gosh, when you think about like, where you're going, what times of days your days you're visiting different sites and all that information, gosh, that could tell a lot about you, especially as we're all, you know, connected through multiple devices and kids are connected. So that's something I actually thought too much about, but now I'm definitely thinking about it. So I think I think it's exactly the point and it really goes again sort of it's almost beyond privacy. It's go has impact on free speech, again, on discriminatory data practice that that we need to, pay attention to.
And and if it's not done well, it really can have a chilling effect on the use of the Internet, which we know is such an important tool. Yeah. So one of the, I have the joy of looking at strategic plans across the organization.
Privacy and presidential elections that, you know, raise to come to your mind or that you're thinking about exploring. I mean, just just just the same way as, data,
and these practices that we're concerned with in the commercial space, they are becoming, as we all know, incredibly important in the in the electoral campaigns. And so we should really explore what this means for our democratic process. Are there the similar risks that, certain, individuals or groups are marginalized? What does it mean for the kinds of topics that, the political campaigns, bring to the surface? If they know, certain people will not vote, they might, you know, avoid talking about topics. So I think really just thinking that through, is is worthwhile. And I look forward to working with I know that academics work on these issues and really sort of have a discussion on it, exploring it. Very cool. So let's let's come to let's talk about privacy in general. I mean, I remember,
you know, when we were looking to fill this position, one of the the conversations we were even having internally is, you know, is privacy the right word? You know, is it something like is that a frame that just is outdated and and not useful in terms of, like, advancing policies around data and whatnot? What's your take on, like, privacy in the digital age? Is privacy dead? Is privacy the right word? What do you think about that? I mean, clearly, privacy is not dead. Certainly not dead, for me. And I think most of us,
you know, there's been we know all the the work that's been done, how important privacy in is and how I think we all individually intuitively know that it's important to us and to to individually intuitively know that it's important to us and to to society at large. And just because it might be difficult to really get at, doing a good job in regulating privacy and, as I said, other data practices doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I think it is a challenge. I think it's difficult, shouldn't try. I think it is a challenge. I think it's difficult, but I think it's a very important, task. I think, yeah, I think you brought up sort of also the the issue of framing, and I think it's really important to pay more attention to important aspects of really looking at the, underlying processes and the larger processes. So I think for us, it's important to, draw the connection between, you know, individual actors, but also our collective responsibility to to shape the policy in the in the right way.
So that's that's I think that's really important. Yeah. So in talking about framing, there's also, you know, in your space, two terms thrown around all the time. The Internet of things and big data. Which one drives you more crazy
and why? I mean, it's true. These are both sort of interesting attempts at maybe less successful, than than some, to to frame the debate. Yeah. I mean, big data, I've always been confused about it's it's been used in so many different context and everybody has their own definition for it. And, obviously, big means great and bigger and better. And while we all agree that there's, you know, really important applications of big data, I think we we need to pay attention to some of the negative consequences or effects of of the practices. To me, it's, it's it's like a big data is is a paradigm. It's about this notion that, knowledge can be derived from from data and that conclusions from large datasets can be, drawn inductively. And I think there's some, you know, concerns with that, really thinking that through whether these this is always making sense. And so, yeah, these terms are rich and, I'll be I'll be probably elaborating on that in the future. And bigger doesn't always mean better. Right? So,
so let's let's get a little bit more to the the you, the personal you here a little bit. You are now our second PhD at CDT. I always find it fascinating, joining our chief technologist, Joe Hall. I always find it fascinating to ask, what was your thesis on?
On? I mean, oftentimes, it's not related to your work at all. So No. So let yeah. Let me try to make a connection. It is actually a little bit removed, but not that much. So I yes. I do have a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania I work school for communication. And I was actually looking at, the idea of how, ideas become dominant ideas in the policy making space. Oh. So looking at the role of private philanthropic foundations in supporting nonprofit organizations in the communications policy making process at the FCC. So I was looking at the years from, I think, from 1960 to 1985 and looked at how the term the public interest was defined and how it changed over time. And I was able to actually show that there was sort of a a lag between foundations funding nonprofits and and scholars and research and how that term has shifted. And it actually, it's interesting. It shifted from this sort of focus on community diversity and and equity and how it was defined then to more of a focus to freedom them and efficiency. And so the dominant fame became that that the market and the efficient market was solving most of these broadcasting policy issues. And to bring it to our day, I think not that much has changed. And I think it's really important to always be aware of how policy issues are being framed and to say, yeah, there's another side where we can look at it quite differently
and and enrich the discussion is right. Interesting. And I will just take this opportunity to thank all of our foundation funders to CDT. Without you, we would not be here and doing the work that we do. So thank you for that. So finally, you've also lived kind of all over the place. You lived in The US, obviously, Germany, France, The UK, and also traveled quite a bit. So which is the best place to live? I mean, I think DC is pretty great. And what's your favorite place to travel on holiday?
So DC is great. I really enjoy, being back here and really it's such a green city. I have so many, opportunities to walk and bike. I used to be an avid, road biker before I moved to New York, and that then became That would be challenging. A suicidal proposition, so I stopped doing that. But, yeah, glad to be back here and being able to get back on my bike.
In terms of travel, I real it's a simple answer. It's like, where family is is where I like to travel. And that actually happens to be, you know, Europe or Germany, but also France. But it also includes places like Arkansas, believe it or not. Oh my goodness. So you have been around, in The United States. And Good. I've traveled there. So but, in the end, I do love to come back to Berlin, which is where I grew up. It's a fantastic city, and I'll enjoy going back there. It is a cool city. And I remember one time where where I walked across the like, I felt like the entire city from East Berlin to West Berlin. And I had a friend with me who did not much enjoy walking. So still to this day, he, tells me about our trek across Berlin and is able to get out. It was a good walk though. It's a beautiful city. So thanks so much for joining Tech Talk, Catarina. We're so excited to have you here. Excited to see the work you do in this project. And hopefully, once you get more settled in, we'll have you back on and you can talk, you know, about one issue perhaps. Great. Look forward to it. Thanks, Brian. That's all for this episode of Tech Talk. Be sure to check out all of CDT's work on privacy and data @cdt..org. As always, tweet us any questions you have or topics you'd like us to cover to at sendem tech. I'm Brian Wasilowski. Thanks for listening.
