Treading Gracefully Online – Talking Tech w/ Washington Post's Sarah Kaufman
Host Brian Wesolowski sits down with Washington Post dance critic & author of "The Art of Grace: On Moving Well Through Life" – Sarah Kaufman. They chat about the journey Sarah takes her readers through, looking to ultimately answer the question: "Can grace survive in the digital age?" #theartofgrace<br><br>Attribution: sounds used from Psykophobia, Taira Komori, BenKoning, Zabuhailo, bloomypetal, guitarguy1985, bmusic92, and offthesky of freesound.org.
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Transcript
Welcome to Tech Talk by
CPT. Welcome to CDT's Tech Talk, where we dish on tech and Internet policy, while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives. I'm Brian Wasilowski, and it's time to talk tech. Grace. What does the word evoke when you hear it? Who does it make you think about? Is it a dancer or perhaps an athlete? Maybe you think about someone who displayed incredible calm and dignity under immense pressure. Today's guest, Washington Post dance critic, Sarah Kaufman, has found grace embodied in all of these forms and has also found it around us in everyday life. In her recent book, The Art of Grace, Sarah takes us through a beautiful journey where the reader not only gets to enjoy stories of grace, but also learn how to live more gracefully themselves. Being graceful or being more at ease in the world is a notion that likely appeals to us all. This is especially true in the always connected, always on world in which we live. Can grace survive in the digital age? I am pretty sure that I have the right person to answer that question here with me today. Let's welcome Sarah to Tech Talk. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you. And I'm going to try to avoid this, but I've been fangirling over your book for some time. And I'm just thrilled to have you here and thrilled to think about how Grace does relate to the digital age. But before we jump to that, can you just tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this?
So thank you so much Brian for that beautiful introduction. Until I said fan girl, which made it less beautiful. No. That's true. Awesome. Awesome. I love that. It's really delightful. And it's so exciting to be here. So what inspired me is it seemed to me as I went through my daily interactions and everyday life that we all live, that there was just kind of an unnecessary coarseness that would sometimes be apparent, kind of a lack of patience, an absence in some situations of self control, less of an impulse to think of others first. And I think that we're learning more and more about the divisions and, imposed separations in society that can give rise to conflicts. And more than ever now, we need to step up for one another and be there for one another and connect more deeply with people. So I was wondering what would it take to move beyond these limitations and divisions, and what's really at the essence of what's missing. And the idea of grace is what came to mind. Finding ways to rediscover grace, which has been a very highly valued virtue going back to the ancient world. And actually, far as empathy and warm and deep connections with people. So, grace with its many meanings from elegant movement to warm and welcoming behavior to, unconditional love. Those were all, what I came across in my in my research and in my interviews with people as essential elements of grace, but how do we bring them into our daily life? You know, how do we live these notions of grace? And that's what I set forth to explore and to, kind of illuminate through stories and through
research and interviews and, and so forth. And you did a wonderful job of it. It was the stories that were really at the center center of this book that really kind of stick with you. When I was reading it, my partner actually jumped to the back and said, oh, I'm gonna learn how to live more gracefully by reading. You have a nice little close that gives you some pointers, which we'll get to at the end of our conversation.
Then I'm like, no, no, no, no. You're missing the point if you don't read the stories. You need to see it embodied in these different people. Can you share some of those stories with us? The ones that really stuck out for you? Well, I mean, we're in the midst of a presidential election cycle. We are. Are we? Yeah. And gee, is there, you know, is is there grace to be found there? Maybe, maybe not. Limited amounts. Well, that's what, brought George Washington to mind. And that's actually, one one of the, first aspects of this book that I began researching was going to the library of congress to find, the photocop the, microfiche of his handwritten rules of polite behavior that he copied out meticulously when he was a teenager, and he kept them all his life. George Washington was, of course, we know he was very tall. He was a general, he had a kind of stately presence, he moved beautifully, and he was described with high admiration by Thomas Jefferson and people who served with him in the army for his grace of horsemanship, his graceful carriage, but he was also known for graceful behavior. And John Adams wrote with a bit of envy. You might read between the lines in in in some of the letters that he wrote about George Washington praising his equanimity and his graceful attitudes and his self command. And these were not just, you know, flattering descriptions, they were not just personality traits. They actually had symbolic importance for the development of this brand new country that was trying to find its way, that was a a country of self governance. And so having a commander in chief and a president who was known for self governance and his self control was very inspiring and very encouraging. And, he, also proved democracy's advantage by acquiring grace and elegance and dignity on his own. He wasn't born a king. He wasn't born into royalty, but he was in effect as princely and as regal and majestic as any king of England, and yet he he learned that and acquired it on his own through practice.
What a great example for where we are. I mean, a lot of your book, you talk a little bit about the decline of grace that we see in society and, you know, your point that they did actually used to teach grace. So there was lessons in grace going all the way back to ancient Greece. Some of the things you highlight in your book are things like reality television, you know, the celebration of bluntness or brashness. And I think all of us sometimes can be a little blunt. I've tried to stop being quite as blunt. But also just an aspiration to just being likable as opposed to being graceful, which seems like a much lower bar. Are there factors in society that you think are leading to this declining place? Grace, I mean, those are examples of it, but what are the factors leading to this?
Well, I think that we can generally generally look at the post war period as bringing about a real change on many levels, but a big change in society where there was a move through the fifties and the sixties to throw off old ways of doing things. There was this rising youth movement, the baby boomers, kind of a critical mass of young people who brought about a lot of change with the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, and so forth. But also, change in the ways we interacted and in in throwing off what we're seeing as kind of fuddy duddy parental dictates of, you know, politeness and and etiquette that was seen as stiff and formal, and we were moving into the suburbs, we were having, you know, backyard weenie roasts, and we had more casual attire, and Mhmm. You know, women were coming into the office. And, you know, there was just a loosening of so many restrictions, and, a loosening of strict codes of behavior went along with that. So there was a pendulum swing, you know, from very rigid to more easygoing. And, you know, easygoing is great, but, what we don't wanna forget is I focus not only on oneself, but on the people around us, you know, other people as well. And that's what, you know, the pendulum swing would be be great for that to swing back that way so that we also bring other people along,
you know, in our daily lives that we pay attention to the world around us. That was something that I really did take from your book, the power of grace to make other people feel good around you. And I I certainly have been trying to think through, and I I must admit I haven't been fully successful, but in every situation, if you think about it through the lens of grace, whether it's a meeting in your office, an interaction with your partner, you know, a call home to your mom, Thinking about that through the lens of grace and are you making that person or that experience better for the other is a a great way to think through life. And I think, you know, if our listeners do that, it's gonna change the way you interact with a lot of the people for the better. Let's shift why why we have you on Tech Talk, of course, a little bit to grace in the digital age. And, you definitely touch on it a bit in your book. There's not a full chapter dedicated to it, but you have examples kind of woven throughout in there. And we chatted before this a bit, and you mentioned how things like technology changes your posture, looking down on your phone, and perhaps the internet promulgates some negative messaging or makes it easier to hide behind a persona to be slightly more negative or attacking. Is technology inherently making us less graceful?
You know, in many ways, it can. And, technology is here to stay. And I think that we can bring ideas of grace. As you said, it's it's really become a kind of a world view. You know, we can look at it as a philosophy, as a way of of governing our daily interactions. And if we bring this world view of grace into everyday life, we can counteract kind of the ungraceful aspects of technology. And as you said, posture is really important. So we could talk about the physical effects of technology and then also the social effects. So if we talk about physical first, along with posture is a more sedentary lifestyle.
So we are, you know, working on our laptops. We're in our offices. We are I will note quickly that the desk that we're sitting at, we were recording this podcast, is a standing desk. This one goes up, so it's it's a good thing. The posture is better than the hunch over thing we have right now as we're talking into mics but Yeah. I love that. I love that. I love that. I have a sit stand desk as well. Oh, they're great. They change it. Yeah. Here's the way you work. It's incredible. Very high on that. That's terrific because,
you know, we don't all need to, slave over, treadmills at a gym. We don't all have to be CrossFit junkies. You know, that works for a lot of people. But we can in terms of being more graceful and also healthier because grace really intersects with health in terms of being good to ourselves and being good to others. We don't you know, we can just counteract the sedentary lifestyle by having a sit stand desk or getting up and walking more. Just walking, you know, getting out of the office and walking a few blocks rather than just going to the corner sandwich shop, but, you know, going a few blocks, going half an hour, making a circuit out in the outside air no matter the weather. You know, just breaks you out of the confined constraint of what you're thinking about in the office, puts you into the stream of life to make you more aware of your surroundings and, you know, it's good for you. As far as posture, being more sedentary collapses our upper bodies. We tend to be a lot more hunched, kind of bent over on top and standing up straight and broadening the shoulder blades and lifting your chest. All those things will make you breathe easier. Think of lifting upright, you know, fighting against gravity. Right? That's another aspect of grace.
Yeah. To just, you know, stand up as tall as you can. Walk as tall as you can. It's so funny. I thought of kind of exactly what you said after reading your book and I was it was in the throes of the winter here in DC. And I, as a runner, I was kind of forced to the tread mill, which I hate to do. And I was wondering why am I so sluggish on the treadmill? Why am I so unhappy? Part of it was I just wasn't outside. But the other part of it, you know, a lot of treadmills have those TVs on them and it naturally brought down my posture. I was looking at the TV as opposed to running kind of naturally. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna run more gracefully. And what do you know? I I felt so much better. There you go. Now I'm not really an athlete, but you did actually share a story about, athletes. Or you have a lot of stories about athletes in your book and being graceful. But you have some thoughts on how technology is also changing
grace in athletics. Could you share some of that? Well, you know, we can think of technology as not just, objects like phones and computers, but also human technology and the way that bodies are built up through techniques, through techniques of training in sports that focus very highly on power. So this power aesthetic has come into just about any sport you can imagine. In fact, I see it in ballet. I see it in in dance. It's in, a lot of the dance competition shows, you know, this the the power and the punch and the sharpness. Well, the the LeBron James aesthetic in Right. Basketball, you know? Where is the Julius Irving who just flew through the air and just, you know, kind of was suddenly up in the air. You had no idea how he got there, but it wasn't a sort of a hurdling himself Right. Like we have now in gymnastics. You see the, you know, these little gymnasts are kind of little Tonka trucks just, you know, boing, boing, boing instead of that that aerial lightness and bird like, delicacy that we had with Olga Corbett and Nadia Comaneci and, I'm dating myself and bringing these names up, but this is how the trend is. And Roger Federer is a kind of, consistent thread in my book as a exceptional graceful player. And the Federer Nadal dynamic has long been one of grace versus power. Does power always convey an advantage? Does grace convey an advantage? I think these are interesting ways of looking at sports. Mhmm. As successful as Roger Federer is, he can be beaten. And so, but he what he offers also is an incredible experience and, a source of appreciation. You know, when we watch him, we feel like flying. Or it may not be Federer for for one of our listeners, one of our listener you know, our listeners may prefer other players. But those who do seem graceful, I think, do convey a kind of a rush, you know, just a freeing sense of exhilaration. Like, oh, wow. I feel so much better about the entire human race just watching this person
tap dance across the court or fly down the the race track. And there's an element to grace and athletics that I think all of us can kind of see ourselves being more graceful or aspire to that form of sport as opposed to the power. I mean, I think through, you know, my feeble attempts at tennis, could never hit the ball as hard as an adult, but there's an element of being able to play with grace. And, you know, I think there's another point to this. A lot of the the power athletes and you're right, they permeate all sports. Their careers don't seem to last as long. So I wonder, you know, if there's something about your wellness in a broader sense, and how grace is actually better for you in the long term even if there is this benefit to the short burst of power. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I,
that's, going back to the point that grace is a way to be good to ourselves, a gentler, you know, less stressed kind of a workout is going to, you know, result in fewer injuries and so forth. And that's one reason to take Roger Federer again as an example. He's had a very long career, has That's right. Played and won late into his, years as an athlete, and he has not suffered the injuries that a Nadal and and some of the others have.
So you mentioned there's the physical and then there's the online kind of community side of the Internet. Let's touch on that a bit. You know, when I when reading your book, there were times that I really thought you could replace the word grace with civility or dignity or respect. And on digital platforms, a lot of times, you may not see that, you know, that level of respect or civility. Mhmm. Are there ways that people can actually be graceful online, you know, on Twitter, on Facebook, or any of the other social platforms out there out there? Absolutely.
I think it's good to keep in mind as you were saying about, you know, everyday grace, whether it's dealing with a partner or calling your mother, to just remember there's a human being on the other side reading that email, reading that comment on a blog post. And, Jonathan Franzen in his book Purity Mhmm. Which, deals with a kind of Julian Assange character and a lot of Internet intrigue, he has a great comment where he writes that the Internet is not so much the friend of the public, but it's governed more by fear. The fear of unpopularity and uncoolness. The fear of missing out, the fear of being flamed or forgotten. And, a lot of that, if you agree with him, and I think there's definitely some truth there, you know, we're driven to check our social media feeds, see who's liked us on Facebook and in Instagram and so forth. We want to be validated and we want to continuously plow time into these platforms to see how we're doing, how we're being perceived. Well that's another way that we're taken away from the world. Our attention is taken away from the world around us. And attention is a central part of grace. So whether it's, stepping away from that sometimes to get that breather and kind of walk outside or walk around the office or whether it's also paying attention to your words, and remembering that there is another person. We may be distanced from them because of the Internet, but there are other people there who are reading comments about them. And I think that this is something that, parents can also start to focus on with their kids. Kids' children are plugged into social media younger and younger. I know I have a 13 year old. And cyberbullying is something we all know about, and that's a growing concern. And the counter to that is empathy, developing empathy and realizing that even if you're in a game, a gaming situation, you're playing with anonymous players, they're actual people. There are actual people who are gonna see those posts on Snapchat even if they're ephemeral. They can Right. You know, there's always ways to save them and and and, comments that are that are brusque and, exaggerated can can be hurtful. So, the better way is to have a little bit more patience, maybe not feel that we need to respond right away, maybe think before we create that post or that quick little Snapchat that might, be perceived
differently by by the audience. Sometimes that pause, you know, that ability just to take a deep breath before you do that, post something or snap something or whatever it is, you end up making a lot of much better decisions. And a lot of times, you you see things not escalate in a negative way. One of the things I've started doing recently is, and it sounds terrible, but unfollowing people on Twitter who only have negative things to say. And in the advocacy space, like where we are at the Center for Democracy and Technology, there's things that we're angry about. There's things that do outrage us. There's things in the world that we don't think are quite right. But you don't always have to convey those in a negative way. You don't always have to be outraged. And you certainly can find positive. I mean, there's so much cool stuff around us. Certainly can find positive. I mean, there's so much cool stuff around us. So, unfollowing the people that only know how to do negative. We can all do better and do a mix of positive. And I think grace, again, is it something if you say, am I being graceful in how I convey my concerns? Am I being being graceful? You have, stories about the civil rights movement movement and how grace was taught, and how that helped advance the movement and really, you know, create a progress. I think that a lot of things in advocacy could could benefit from the lessons of that. Absolutely. I mean, look at Rosa Parks
who made her great, her great impact by refusing to give up her seat on the bus by being very, you know, by being in perfect self command and not being rattled, keeping her peace. She could have gotten angry, she could have, you know, said any numerous, you know, number of things, she could have done anything, but she stayed very quiet and she kept her peace and she was, she absolutely knew what what she wanted to do. She knew what the goal was. She saw the big picture. And, you know, I think that's a a really great lesson to keep the big picture in mind. And on the point of technology, I just want to make one, one other point that, you know, it's not only, I think a lot of a lot of times we can be kind of down on millennials or whatever, and I I don't wanna give that impression at all because, not only am I the mother of a couple of millennials, some of my best friends are millennials, but, I think that millennials have a great sensitivity to, oftentimes to phrasing texts sensitive ways or in ways that are neutral without being emotional. I think that is something that millennials can kind of lead the way for the rest of us in that they've grown up with this, with this platform and and they're finding their way. They found their way in many in many instances, and I find that there is this sensitivity. And, just the other day, I was at a movie and it was actually, there was an, a person next to me, a mature person next to me who was talking with her companions, checking out her phone inside her purse so that, you know, the light was shining. This is what we might expect from someone who didn't know any better and yet here was somebody who you would think, you know, should know better. So, I mean, there there there's not just any certain age group that needs to be targeted,
but we can all just learn from each other. There's just myriad opportunities to learn from each other. Absolutely. And I think that we're still setting the norms for technology in our lives. I mean, the the amount of technology we have has just grown tremendously, and I think there's an opportunity there, just as you were saying, for young, old, you know, people that are tech savvy, not tech savvy, to really think about what is the world we do wanna create with this technology in it. And Grace is a wonderful, wonderful lens to think of that through. So let's wrap this up. You close, as I mentioned, with some tips for living more gracefully. What should our listeners be thinking about? What are a couple that they could take away and say, this is how I'm gonna live?
So I think that, one main thing to keep in mind, and this kind kind of goes counter to the way we view society and perhaps our daily lives, but it's slow down. You know, patience. Slow down and try to listen and understand where someone's coming from. And that can often be the key to defusing a tense situation, taking that step back, looking at the big picture. Mhmm. But slowing down, not being, pressed to give a response right away or to interject a thought right away, but rather to, be open. And another thing that I I think is a an essential and really effective part of grace is generosity, giving, a sense of giving. So we, we tend to think about in the business situation, you know, taking what we can, kind of, preserving our turf or what we don't have to give away, you know, we shouldn't we shouldn't give away. And yet giving is, providing good luck for somebody on the other side. You know, it's kind of like good luck in reverse. And the thing about giving and thinking of other people before ourselves is, it's not always altruistic. I mean, it's it it helps us in the end. There's this wonderful feedback loop. You know, the times when I'm most most proud of myself is when I've done something nice or helped out someone else. And so to find those opportunities and to pursue those opportunities of giving and generosity and compassion, they, you know, they flood back good feelings upon ourselves. And that's what I mean by this feedback loop. And then you're just in this fantastic grace bubble, you know? Euphoric even.
That sounds wonderful. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Mhmm. Be sure to check out Sarah's book or get it at your local bookshop. I saw I first saw Sarah at Politics and Prose right here in DC, which is a great one. The Art of Grace, pick it up at the bookstore, pick it up online. I think that you will be inspired by it. It certainly has led to me trying to be more graceful successfully sometimes, maybe not always successfully. But I thank you so much for this book and thank you for joining Tech Talk. Thank you, Brian. It's been a great pleasure. Really appreciate it. Go for it. That's all for this episode of Tech Talk. As always, tweet us any questions or topics you'd like us to cover to at SendemTech. I'm Brian Wasilowski. Thanks so much for listening, and try to live more gracefully.
