Tech Talk- Sharing Student Data Across Public Sectors — W/ Marika Pfefferkorn & Elizabeth Laird
We have another exciting show for you this week!<br><br>Data-sharing practices between K-12 education agencies and adjacent public sectors, such as social services, are becoming increasingly prevalent. To minimize risk, agencies participating in data-sharing initiatives must take steps to ensure the benefits are available to all and that no group of students experiences disproportionate harm. <br><br>CDT recently released a set of new recommendations for conducting community engagement around the use of student data, with particular focus on the practice’s role in decisions about data-sharing. The new report, Sharing Student Data Across Public Sectors: Importance of Community Engagement to Support Responsible and Equitable Use, presents the guidance alongside polling research on the demand for community engagement.<br><br>Here to talk about the report is Marika Pfefferkorn, Co-founder & Solutions and Sustainability Officer for Twin Cities Innovation Alliance and Elizabeth Laird, Director of CDT’s Equity in Civic Technology project.<br><br>More on our host, Jamal https://bit.ly/cdtjamal<br><br><br>Attribution: sounds used from Psykophobia, Taira Komori, BenKoning, Zabuhailo, bloomypetal, guitarguy1985, bmusic92, and offthesky of freesound.org.
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Transcript
Hi. I'm Cody Venske. I work on the Equity and Civic Technology project here at CDT. Recently, we've been able to petition the FCC to protect student privacy in its efforts to close the homework gap. You can support this and all we do here at CDT by going to cdt.org/techtalk and donating. Every donation matters. Thank you for enhancing civil rights and civil liberties in the digital age.
Welcome to Tech Talk. Bye.
CT. Welcome to CDT's Tech Talk, where we dish on tech and Internet policy while also explaining what these policies mean to our daily lives. I'm Jamal Magby, and it's time to talk tech. CDT recently released a set of new recommendations for conducting community engagement around the use of student data, with particular focus on the practice's role in decisions about data sharing. The new report, sharing student data across public sectors, importance of community engagement to support responsible and equitable use, presents the guidance alongside polling research on the demand for community engagement. Here to talk about the new report is Marika Pfefferkorn, cofounder and solutions and sustainability officer for Twin Cities Innovation Alliance, and Elizabeth Laird, director of CDT's equity and civic technology project. Marica and Elizabeth, thank you so much for being here today.
Hey, Jamal. Thanks for having me. And Marica, thanks for joining us.
I'm glad to be here with everybody.
So, Marica, to kick us off, can you explain a little bit exactly what community engagement is and and why why is it important?
Yes. Thank you for that question. Community engagement is a really broad topic that gets boiled down to steps and strategies. So for me, community engagement really is about putting in place a process that community and a, an entity or an into institution can go through a process to make a decision on how something might be or if something should be. And so, for years, community engagement has really just been around how do you involve the community. And community engage answers the question, what ways will we engage the community, and where in the process do we really need to begin in order to have an outcome that serves the community's best interest?
And, Jamal, if I can just chime in on that and just plus one everything that Marika said and add, a couple of points. One, I'll just put some context on my own experience. I think as some of our listeners know, I worked in state government, before I was in this role, and, am am sad to say that I don't think we did enough around community engagement. And so one way that I learned about community engagement was going to the school of hard knocks of what happens when you do things with people's data and they're not engaged and they find out after the fact. And what happens is that is that there's a a real loss of trust that, has to be rebuilt. And then the other, source of my education has been from Marika herself, and the good work that she has done in Minnesota. And one of the things that Marika has been so great about, continuing to shine a light on and that has really helped me in my thinking is the difference between community outreach and community engagement, and that those are not the same things. And sometimes practitioners think that they are engaged in communities when in fact, it's a one way, it's a one way street. It is sharing information. It is not actually meaningfully soliciting input back. And so some examples of community outreach, are sending emails or having information sessions, but what sets community engagement apart is this two way mutually beneficial relationship in which, public agencies are benefiting from the input that communities have, but communities are also getting value from working with public agencies. And I think that's what what really sets it apart. And to put it further into context, I think our country right now, if you just watch the news and what's happening around education, we are having a a reckoning around the role of families in education and hearing on a multitude of issues. You know, on this podcast, we focus on technology, but, there's certainly, it's coming up in other areas that parents want to have more of a say in what's happening with their child while they're in school. And I think, you know, our our, position would be that that should also extend to what's happening with their data and how schools are using technology in the name of helping them.
I couldn't agree more and just really believe that community engagement actually believes with begins with, community building. And for our communities, because of the history and relationship that we have, oftentimes, communities, BIPOC, black indigenous, and people of color communities have had with institutions, that community building requires time and relationship. And so it's a really important place to begin the community engagement because you can't really move forward until you've acknowledged and dressed what is the history of a partnership between a community and institution, between a district and a school. And so, really, as you're saying, a part of community engagement is reckoning with how have we done this before and how will we deal with this differently going forward?
Jamal, do you see why I've learned so much from Marika now?
I can I I completely see why? I mean, I'm here taking notes myself.
And No. You're fine.
And it and it sounds like, you know, trust just plays a really big a really big part in this community engagement, you know, between people of color and and and their, in their in their respective institutions.
And I think, for me, our organization and the community I work in, trust, you know, is has been broken so many times that we have to use a restorative approach to community engagement. And at the core of a restorative practice in coming to this work is that everybody has a voice. Everybody has a space to be listened and heard. And so it is the antithesis of what Elizabeth was describing with community outreach where you're just being delivered and and and served information.
So we touched on this a little before. And, Elizabeth, I wanna kick this question to you. Why is community engagement particularly relevant for k through 12 student data sharing decisions? Why why is that, that kindergarten through 12, through twelfth grade area so important?
Yeah. I mean, I think, as I said, I think, you know, the past two years have really shown us how important it is to engage communities when you're, you know, mounting any kind of response, especially when it comes to dealing with a global crisis and how we make sure that we're keeping our our students safe and that they're continuing to learn, in this very challenging time. And related to that, one of the, the things that that we started to see is, a a growing interest in how do you coordinate what's happening in in k 12 education systems with other agencies that might also be serving those same students and families. And I think on the the plus side of that, that there's a growing acknowledgment that, the success of a student in in an education setting depends on a lot more than what happens just inside of a classroom. So if a student is hungry, if a student has experienced trauma, if a student is experiencing homelessness, all of those things will, you know, ultimately impact their educational success. So I think that I think that is the good news. And related to that, you know, there is a growing interest in sharing information across some of those agencies to do a better job of coordinating services, of of trying to identify what works. And and I think, you know, along those lines, what we have have not seen happening is is to see that same level of input and community engagement on those decisions. So in other words, there's interest. You know, there's certainly, an understanding that that, the success of students, depends on more than just what's happening inside their classroom. But when it comes to sharing sensitive information, about them with other agencies, we've seen that that oftentimes parents are the last people to know that that's happening. And so to go back to what you called out as being just the bedrock of any engagement is trust. And so when information is shared with other sectors, even if it's, you know, with positive intentions, and communities are not engaged not only they're not engaged, they don't even know about it. When they find out about it, you know, we've certainly seen pushback that actually erodes that trust and and may actually result in, you know, losing some of the benefits that data and technology can bring. And so I think specifically, you know, we wanted to focus on is is this data sharing question. And, I would love for Marika to just talk a little bit about her experience in Saint Paul, which is, you know, a case study and what not to do. And what happens when, you know, you you have people who think they're doing the right thing and they wanna share data across sectors, but, you know, they don't talk to communities about it. And so what that what that leads to. So, Marika, do you mind just sharing a little bit about, what happened where you live?
Certainly, Elizabeth. So in our community, we had folks that were really excited about, the idea of, interoperable data sharing or sharing across agencies. And when I describe this story, I often express the enthusiasm because everyone had really brought bought into this idea that with technology, with would bring more efficiency and effectiveness. But without doing due diligence in the community to see what that perspective could bring, you take missteps or you misinterpret. And so in Saint Paul, there was a community engagement process around how to best support students through upstream approaches and services. But at the end of that conversation, it was boiled down to we need to share big data across systems. And so taking one piece of a community conversation to advance an agenda became really evident early on. And so we had to engage the community in saying, this is what they're talking about. This is the potential. These are the questions that we have, and and this should matter to you. And so we had to do a deep dive in reaching out to people, and understanding where they were in their understanding of data, big data, predictive analytics, and algorithms, and then work with them to understand what was being proposed and the potential harm and the role that they could play in it, at minimum, pausing the decision to have a better and deeper conversation. And so that meant having community forums that meant having house parties in community with folks to have the conversation because they may not have been ready to have those conversations publicly. So what that actually led to is we built a ecosystem of community members to push back on a technologically driven solution that at the end of the day was not able to answer the question, what is the different outcome that this will be able to provide? And as a part of that conversation, it became really apparent from, policymakers and district leadership that they did not believe the the community had the capacity to weigh in on this conversation. And so they continue to make missteps. And so we asked the question, whose responsibility is it to bring everybody up to speed so everyone can participate in this type of conversation about big data sharing? And we didn't get answers we liked. And from that that moment on, we said, you know, this work has to be about grounding our community in what's in in the emergence of this technology and equipping them with the skills, tools, and confidence necessary to push back and have deeper conversations with folks that were not experts, but were advocating for, moving this project forward without having all the questions answered to the community's
the community's satisfaction. And, Marika, for those who haven't followed your story, what's going on with the data sharing agreement now?
So, after a a lot of back and forth with community, the three agencies decided to, dissolve the data sharing agreement because they recognized harm had been done with the community and how the how the process happened. Two, that they needed to do a deeper dive and get a better understanding about, algorithmic justice, about what it means to share across systems that hold very personal and private information. And so from that point on, I will say that policymakers across our state have wanted to check-in and say, is this okay to proceed? And so the next step for them to say is, we wanna invest resources, time, and energy in getting our community into this conversation so that, we can build something new from the ground up that really has the buy in and is a sustainable approach to using data for public good.
Yeah. I just your that story resonates with me so much, and I think about it all the time. And so, Jamal, to your question about, you know, why does this matter and how does data sharing fit fit in, I hope, that story about what happened in Ramsey County in Minnesota, I think it sort of shows what happens when you don't engage communities. And what I hope and I I don't wanna speak for Marika, but we've had other conversations. I think what we both hope is that we don't just use community engagement as something that is is reactive, and is something that that happens when trust has been broken, but it is something that is done proactively. And that as, sharing information across sectors is even considered, that's when communities are engaged, to understand what is the problem they're trying to solve and what do people think about sharing their own information, in order to, help students and their families. So before I turn it back to you, I wanna make one more point. And that is we've been, Rick and I both been talking about, communities. And so I wanted to just also say what we mean by communities. And, you know, as we think about it at CDT, a community member is anyone outside of a public agency who has a stake in the decisions that are being made. But as it relates to data sharing, I think you hear us, you know, sort of coming through that we're really talking about, those individuals about whom data is being collected, which in the case of education needs students and their families. And I just wanna acknowledge that, you know, there's not there's not one, mold for a family. And so when we talk about community members, if you are, a foster parent or a primary caregiver or if you or a a student has been emancipated. It can look all kinds of different ways. And so we use community members or parents or families as shorthand for what is really a very diverse group of stakeholders who care a lot about what's happening with your information.
Elizabeth, as you you asked me that question earlier, I had another thought about how things have progressed since the time of the joint powers agreement in Ramsey County, which was between 2017, 2018, and 2019, is that one one critical role that the community plays is they hold institutional memory. Whereas we were working with a particular group of people in Ramsey County, in the city of Saint Paul, and Saint Paul public schools, but it's been a few years and it's been a pandemic. And so some of those people have actually that went walked that walk with us have left their roles and positions. And so we had a side conversation with somebody, and they were familiar with the JPA story, but their interpretation of the story was really different. So it reminded me of how important it is to come back and again and again and have these conversations of what is the origin story for data sharing in, across systems in Ramsey County because it the institution itself is not going to press that. It is the community that's going to remind folks, like, we went through this with you, and we need to onboard you so that we don't have to come up against that same mistake again because institutionally, you haven't held the lessons learned.
So, Marika, it's clear you have experienced leading community engagement efforts at TCIA. And I I wanna know what what lessons have you learned and how do you how do you apply them?
Well, one of the lessons that we learned is that you have to be really creative and imaginative in how you think about delivering and sharing information. And so we created a fellowship, the no data about us without us fellowship. And, of course, it's during a pandemic, so it's not in person, and so it's all online. And so we had to get really creative about how do you engage communities about what they're experiencing in a way that is meaningful and doesn't just kind of resurface harm. So we developed a nine month curriculum that would build the muscle of community members around the knowledge around data science, around big data, around algorithmic justice, all of those kind of big terms that situate as intimidation. Oftentimes, folks are saying this is too complicated for communities. So we wanted to dispel this myth that just because you're using these words does not mean I don't understand the context or the impact of what's happening. So getting them comfortable with the language. And then really doing a deeper dive into what are all the software, what are the different applications, what are the different approaches that folks are using in technology that impact your students? And how is it being used? How has it been communicated to you? So we'd like to talk about what is that back to school sign off thing that you do every year as a parent? What have you agreed to when it comes to your data? So it's investigating what is their relationship with data, and how does that show up in their relationship with school? And then after we get, some time to really examine what's showing up in their particular district, We do a a program or a a campaign where they do some action based research on an area of interest around data, algorithms, and others in education, and that campaign can lead to a number of different avenues. So the no data about us without us, the first group of fellows, from that time together, they all really felt the importance of this conversation around big data, and they all assumed the responsibility of carrying that message forward to other parents in their schools. So we worked with five separate communities in the state of Minnesota. They were rural, suburban, and urban, and, also, we worked with different cultural communities and linguistic communities. So we, delivered our sessions in Somali and in Spanish, through simultaneous simultaneous interpretation. We provided coaches so that it was easier to process information in between sessions. And so they went through this experiential learning cycle at the end to say, how do you wanna use this knowledge? And they all wanted to use their knowledge to empower other parents and partner with their school district to make better decisions about the use of their data. So one of the outcomes of our first fellowship was that a inaugural data advisory was created, where parents would meet with their research and evaluation teams and say, this is how we've been using the data, and this is how we're considering, and then actually weighing in on the conversation. Another way that the fellows have taken their learning from our our process is they've developed days and events. So they had El Dia de la Muerta where they were gathering in community. It's and they called it the day Dia de la Data. So they combined a holiday and an opportunity to engage with community about how their data was being used. So we had a really exciting time together learning from the parents as they're navigating systems and what's showing up in their schools. We also learned a lot about how much more information needs to be shared with districts and counties and cities, in their community engagement process. Because even when we sent our fellows to go interview their legislators, their superintendents, their school board members, most of the folks were not able to answer the questions that our parents had for them. And so most of our focus has really been on equipping community. But I think this this, this brief at this time, sharing student data across public sectors is so timely because we really need our systems to get, a a better version of how to deliver community engagement because our parents are getting ready for this conversation, and now we need to see the systems to meet them halfway.
So what advice and guiding principles would you give to public agency practitioners who have little experience with community engagement work, but want to incorporate it more into their practices?
So I'll I'll chime in on that first, Jamal, and then we'd love to hear what Marika has to say. So she just gave a shout out to some guidance that we released, at the end of last year, which is entitled, sharing student data across public sectors, and then how practitioners, whether you're at the state, school district, or school level, can better engage communities around that. The report itself is is close to 40 pages long. So, good news for you and our listeners is that I'm not going to read it to you. But I do encourage you to go on to our site, and and read the full thing. Lots of bullets, pretty easy to scan, some graphics, so don't feel intimidated by the length of it. But, nonetheless, I'm not gonna read it to to folks. What I will say, though, in terms of of what practitioners should be thinking about, I have one sort of overarching comment, which is that community engagement is is never done. It is not something that, you know, you do and you cross it off your list and you go on with your day. It is a it is a different way of working and thinking about things especially related to data sharing. And, community engagement is something that should be done throughout the data sharing process, before you even decide to share data. That is something that communities should be weighing in on, and getting their, you know, sharing their thoughts on that. And then once that information is being shared, you know, what are different ways in which it can be used? Those are things that communities will have thoughts about. And finally, you know, data sharing is not intended to be something that is done, in in perpetuity. It's something that is done to solve a problem, and that, public agencies should be continually asking themselves, is is the sharing of information still serving its purpose, and how do you get input to know if you've met your goal and then to eventually stop sharing that information? So, overall, for practitioners, the good and the bad news is that, you know, community engagement is not something that has ever really finished. It's a different way of making decisions. And the other caveat that I will add, to put the 40 pages of guidance in perspective is, you know, what we put forward is, you know, what are we seeing as the best practices? A lot of that was through engagement with folks in the field and groups like Marika's, which by the way, I should give a shout out. She, and TCIA was an adviser on this guidance. So thank you, Marika. And, you you can't see me, but I'm I'm clapping my hands.
I'm waving mine. I'm waving mine.
So just really trying to get, all of the best experience and benefits from folks who've been in the field. But I will say our guidance, is intended to, you know, really pull together with all of the best things that are happening. With that said, I think we also acknowledge that, public agencies have limited resources. This is a really different way of working. So to not let perfect be the enemy of the good and to just get started. So with that said, our guidance suggests that practitioners think about this in four phases. The first phase, which is really important and is can be really hard to find time for but is is super impactful is just making time at the beginning to plan this out. When it comes to community engagement, what are your goals? What kind of processes do you wanna put in place? What are the roles that people are gonna play that is really important so that, you know, someone doesn't come to the table thinking that they're gonna be the ultimate decision maker and really they are there to, you know, provide guidance, but someone else will make the decision. Like, those kinds of things really lead to frustration. And so it's really important out of the gate to have a really clear plan and communicate that to, community members. The second thing to think about is how do you enable, community engagement, and that capacity needs to be built on both sides of the equation, both, in public agencies and in communities. As Marika said, one of the reasons that, folks in her community gave for not engaging families is that they didn't think that they knew enough, to provide input. Well, first of all, I think you need to check your assumptions. And second of all, you know, it is really incumbent on on public agencies to develop their own capacity and to position communities for success. And so thinking about what do what do public agencies need to be successful on this, you know, whose job is it, what kind of resources do they they need? And then how do they, share what information is needed with communities so they can constructively engage and it's beneficial for everyone? The third one is something that Marika has alluded to. So I'll just come out and say it is that, this work needs resources. And those resources, it can include money, you know, paying for, supporting childcare, providing meals, making it easy for people to attend, but it also takes a lot of people power. You know, who who in your agency is going to do this work? And, you know, how do you how do you support that? And then, maybe the hardest resource to come by these days is time, that, you know, it it can take it can take longer to engage communities, but I think the idea is that you can go further with them, than if you are making unilateral decisions on their behalf. And then finally, you know, the the last stage is, you know, you do it. You know, you take the planning work that you've done, the capacity building, the resources, and then you actually implement it. And as you're implementing it, you are continuing to evaluate how is it going, getting input. You know, when it you think back to your planning stage and how you define success, are you getting there? And there are a lot of, tactical ideas that we got from, folks in the field about how to make all of these things come to life, but that are in more detail in the paper. But I will stop there, and just say that, you know, this this work is hard. It does require, you know, us changing the way that we think about decisions being made. But, I think as Marika said, you know, when when, you know, her story, what happened in Minnesota, you know, if you don't do this work, it can really be a a net loss, and a net loss in terms of trust, in terms of time, in terms of people, money. So I think we can no longer afford to keep doing business the same way that we've done it. But, Marika, what did I miss? What would you add?
Well, I actually as I'm listening to you, you share out our our good ideas. I'm thinking of the sankofa bird. And the sankofa bird is a bird that is looking to the past, and they're holding an egg in their beak as they're looking because you need to know where you've come from in order to know where you're going. So I think about systems that are really interested in doing the work, have to look to the past of how you've done the work before, how have you shown up in community, and is there repair that needs to be done in order to get clear the runway? Is there trust that you need to rebuild? And then as you're thinking about that, understanding that time moves at the speed of trust. And so, again, as we say in the guidance, community decision making does not fit in quarterly, reports, and it doesn't fit in funding oftentimes. So you need to be creative on how you think about it. But I think, again, back to that sankofa bird of looking to the past, but they're holding an egg, and so that's supposed to represent the future. And so as you're going through this new process as a system in partnership with community, what is it that you want to set the table for in the future? How do you ensure that this process will be meaningful and build trust with the community? So the next time you have to do it, it will not have to be so difficult. And so that means really walking in partnership with community, not isolating, the system from the community, looking for expertise in the community. Systems have a difficult down time doing community engagement because they try to set situate them in roles. I think looking to community partners who have done community engagement successfully and supporting that vision through the system is a really good place to start. But the Sankofa bird also reflects cultural resonance and being reflected in how things show up in the system. So acknowledging a community's culture as you're working with them is really important because that brings in how they talk about things, that talks about how they understand thing. There's there's ways of knowing, there are ways of doing, and there are ways of being. And so if you're really gonna interrupt business as usual, you really need to start building out that toolkit, and it really is about the people that can help you navigate that. So what is your relationship with folks in community before, during, and after?
Marika, to close us out, what advice would you give for community members interested in getting more involved with issues of public data decision making? How can they
how can they let their voice be heard? Well, I think one of the most important ways to do so is to take that first step. Whether it means you wanna show up in a meeting with somebody else or you just want to ask questions of your, you know, of your district. Find out what are the policies and practices of your district. I would also suggest, finding a fellowship or a cohort of people that are interested in in doing this work with you, so that it is not so overwhelming because our teams within systems are not doing them doing it themselves. So find a partner. So when we did our no data about us without us fellowship, many of them became ambassadors. So they had teams within their district and then would work in particular schools to do outreach. And so no one was expected to do this work alone as a parent. And the advice for community members getting more involved in issues of public data decision making, I think it goes to that example I gave earlier of thinking, about that back to school packet that used to be papers but is now digital. So find out what you have already agreed to, and then ask questions about it if you don't understand how that might impact your child, whether it's the use of their device, whether it's a software for student activity monitoring. Find out more about how this technology is being used in your community and engage other or other folks in the conversations because this is still emerging, and I am hesitate to position anyone as an expert. And so the more we think about this in the collective approach, the better we'll be. And that really grounds us in restorative of building off of each other's strengths and showing up in the best ways that we know how.
Marika, I think we're gonna have to have you, come back for a part two to this because I because I'm so long winded. Oh.
Land the plane.
Not at all. Not at all. Well, Marika and Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us here today. We really appreciate your time and and candor.
Well, thank you for bringing forth this topic. It's it's exciting and engaging to talk about.
Thank you, Jamal.
It is exciting and important, I think, is is a big part too. And to all our listeners, to check out our new report, sharing student data across public sectors, importance of community engagement to support responsible and equitable use, please visit us at cdtorg and check cdt.org and check us out on Twitter and Facebook at SendemTech. I'm Jamal Magby, and thank you for talking tech.
