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But before we get into that, I think it would be great, Stani, if you can maybe, you can give like a little introduction, but also, if you could explain AAVE to people, since that's where I think like, that's how you became famous, I guess, was through AAVE. And it's also the protocol that the or the DeFi application that the bread chain crowd sticking application, which is what, I've built with my, with my, my fun little side project called bread chain. Mhmm. And so I thought it'd be really nice if you can maybe explain what that is and, yeah, what is unique about it. Yeah. Definitely. And and and thanks for, using the the other protocol. So, what Aave is is is, you know, as a as a user, you can supply cryptographic assets, into the other protocol, and receive yield, on those, assets. And at the same time, you can use those assets as a collateral, to borrow other kind of assets. So typical example is that you might have, some ETH, sitting on your wallet, that you don't wanna spend, because you are, delivering the, Ethereum ecosystem, but you would like to see that balance grow. So what you do is that you supply these assets into the protocol, but at the same time, you want to use, a bit of that, net for capital that you have, stuck in in it. So what you could do is you could borrow, stablecoins, from the other protocol, without any intermediaries. So you are interacting directly with the, smart contract infrastructure, the protocol itself, and finance, some sort of a goal. That could be, you know, that could be tuition, that could be mortgage, you know, a car or, you know, any kind of finance goal you you might have in, mind. And as a protocol, it means that, it's just a set of infrastructure that has been built, and deployed, in multiple different, EVM based, blockchains, Ethereum, Polygon, Avalanche, and so called layer twos, Optimism and and Arbitrium. So, effectively, because it's an infrastructure, anyone can can actually, use that infrastructure. So we call it as, a public good. And I think for me, personally, the fascinating part is that, as our team has built the protocol, we don't really control it. So, there's actually formal governance, over the other protocol, meaning that the token holders come together over the blockchain and actually make decisions on how the Aave protocol has is gonna be, improved in the future or changing different kinds of, risk parameters, interest rate strategies. And and the team itself doesn't have any ability to change what is out there, which is kind of a a cold thing for us. Yeah. So, like, the way that, to kind of maybe to simplify it for some people who may be listening, you in order to use AAVE, you would provide collaterals. You would give, you know, perhaps, it could be Ether, it could be DAI, it could be any of these type of crypto tokens that are on an EVM chain. You can then borrow assets of a different token that is of less value than what you've given collateral, so it's always over collateralized. And you can use that for various reasons why you would do that as for trading or as for, you know, whatever it is that you want want to accomplish. Yeah. So we use that. Good. Yeah. I just say that's, I would say roughly 70% of the protocol, users are simply supplying, assets to earn. So they're they're not actually borrowing, anything out of the, protocol itself. Yeah. Most people are are are lending than they are borrowing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And that's basically what we use it for, with Breadchain as well. We just lend out DAI so that we can earn a yield off of that DAI to help fund the cooperative and we create sort of a wrapped token for that that people can use within the network. But so since the success of AAVE over the past few years, you've kind of transitioned now into social media. You've gone from DeFi to social media using the same type of tools that you've built AAVE with. But maybe before we get into what Lens protocol is and how it works and how it's different, I think it would be interesting to know, I guess for you, what are the what is the problem with social media today as you see it and which kind of lens is meant to, to solve for? Yeah. I mean, I I see different layers of, challenges in in the current, social media landscape. I like to always kind of, like, approach, the social media challenge from a perspective where, seeing social media as as a place of, having digital, town squares. So for example, if you go back in history, there's been always some sort of a venue or a forum where people come together and and they make different kinds of, either decisions or they share news, or, you know, they they get informed and educate themselves. So, that has been happening in the ancient Greek times and and and and even way longer, in history. So that's the kind of, like, a people coming together, component. And the second thing is that we've, we usually also form lot of relationships online, and and form lot of social capital. So it's very, normal and human behavior to to actually create relationships. You know? You, might create, friendships in in whatever you are going school, for example, your workplace, with your neighbors and and and whatnot. But what is fascinating is that now, especially with the past decades, more and more that creation of social capital actually happens, over online. So, for example, that's if if you look at today, we have roughly five, billion people, over over the Internet and almost equal amount of, social media users, at at this point. But, effectively, what we see today is that many of the users are creating that social capital or creating content in a platforms where they really don't have, a specific ownership. So if that platform, for example, goes, down or disappears, what basically happened with Myspace, you know, they, they lost their data, while back ago. You really don't have the ownership of those connections you make. But, actually, if you think about the, real, like, use cases, you know, when you make connections, I would say, like, off chain, what happens is that, you know, you form those relations and and they exist. But in the global, Internet economy and, our presence, you know, it's it's very, hard to create, audiences and own. And with Lens, our goal is to approach the challenge from the perspective of being able to create a profile that you own, and it's secured by the blockchain and also being able to create an audience. So, we create different kinds of relationships on online, and and what is happening is that, we create them inside of a platform. So we really don't have the ownership, for that audience. So, for example, that's, if if if I want to actually go into another venue, another, digital town square, I can't actually take my audience, with me into this new, venue. And and that's the kind of, like, a challenge where, you know, we don't really have the ownership of the connections and online presence we're making today, online. And blockchain is interesting way to solve this challenge because in the first place, what Bitcoin was trying to do is to actually solve the idea of being able to have ownership over your, monetary value and and being able to transact, peer to peer without intermediaries. And with Ethereum and EVM, we we took one step forward and made actually that, that finance programmable. And and with Lens protocol and and the, Web three social, the idea is to extend it further that if you can actually own, your own, wealth and your own, money, you you should be able to also own your, identity and and your online presence, and change the kind of dynamics that we have today on online where platforms are the ones that, decide upon different kinds of policies and and how users, see content, or how the monetization works today. Yeah. I mean, you're talking to, someone who, is unfortunately a online content creator. So I definitely understand, like, where that's like, the the idea of being able to port your audience to someplace else, like, I have sympathies for because I have thought about, like, you know, at any moment, what if, you know, Elon Musk or whoever is that, the CEO of Patreon, I don't know, they don't like me anymore. Like, I don't have very many options, which is why, I have been kind of, like, exploring, for example, like NFTs as a way for people to subscribe as an alternative. Because there is there is this risk, that I think, what my Matt Dreherst has called platform risk Yep. That a lot of artists and creators have is that at any moment, you know, you don't know whenever a platform may disappear. In which case, you as an individual user who has zero, I guess, ownership or real stake into a platform, like, you have no you have no recourse for what happens. And, you're not, like, you're you're not the highest priority, for the platform. It's whoever their their shareholders are. And and typically when you look at these platforms, especially when they're related to, for example, the not the entertainment part of the, online social media, but actually to the part of act to on the part of creating news, for example, and sharing opinions, that's where, a little of the the the actual, I would say kind of, like, interactions becomes, more political. And that's part, it's it's very kind of, like, hard to create a very equal, accessible and and fair environment online, from the perspective when the users don't really have a choice, to select their, platforms. And I I think what's radically gonna be different in the future, especially with with Webtree, is that, you know, you can actually start having that choice. So you have the flexibility to go from one, application, to another, change your experience, but also maybe subscribe into a different kind of a content moderation policy that resonates your values more without actually losing your, distribution. And I think that's where the value is for for, for users. And when we create that flexibility, and opportunity, what happens also is that these platforms and applications, they really need to, think about then, well, how we actually can compete in this environment where the users can now actually move very easily from one place to another, and, they retain ownership of their, audience. And I think that's where where we're gonna have a, like, a very big moment of realization that, you know, it's it's actually people own their voice. It belongs to them, but we need to find the experiences that actually, give them reach, for their audiences. Yeah. I think so. A lot of the things that you're mentioning now, I think you're you're alluding to, some of the stuff that Lens protocol is meant to, is meant to solve. So maybe if you could, from a high level, like, how does Lens protocol works? And I think, yeah, how how if you could add to that as well, like, how does a protocol differ from a platform like Twitter, like Facebook, or whatever else? Yeah. Similar to Aave, so Lens protocol, most of the infrastructure is, deployed, into the blockchain. So, the reason we use blockchain is because it's a good way of giving different kinds of guarantees, for the users. So where, the other protocol gives you the guarantees of, certain type of, yield, for example, based on verified interest rate formula, certain type of execution, Lens protocol provides you the guarantee of ownership of your, profile, your online presence. And that ownership is also tokenized, as an NFT. So you can move it from one wallet to another. We can store it in your cold storage, delegate the ability to post from from another, address. And then, you also have the idea of, social graph. So the the connections you are, making over online, and that's also secured by the the blockchain as well. So, it's it's basically a a tool set for, any user to create online presence and and have an ownership, and distribution. But at the same time, it also creates ability to create, a brand, for example, as well. And one last interesting, like, bigger, benefit of the protocol is that all the content that you create, you can, tokenize them as NFTs. So we're expanding the idea of, art or music being, tokenized NFTs into, any user generated content, being able to tokenize as NFTs. So what it actually means, for users is that if you like some specific content, you can actually go and collect that content. And the creator can actually set, a a fee. It can be also free collect, but can also, set a fee. So it's this idea in Webtree where, there isn't necessarily, like, a good explanation of what NFTs or buying or collecting NFTs actually mean. But there's different kinds of, interpretations there. And and one of them where I think it's it it it kind of, like, it makes a lot of sense to me is that it's a way to actually consume content. And by consumption means you are able to signal that you actually, are supporting, this piece of content, and you might also want to support the creator as well and and be part of, that community of of, whatever content you're, consuming. So it's kind of like a a fascinating concept from, like, the the creator, content creation perspective, like, what an NFT is of a particular content because it might be anything. It might not be just a picture of art. It it can actually be just one, you know, one word or, you know, one sentence that that is just, like, culturally relevant or relevant for that audience to to collect. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a couple things there. So, like, to me, Lens sounds like it's basically taking, using the world computer, or however you want to call it, as like the back end for, upkeep of a social graph in which you are making connections with other wallets. Not necessarily that you are sending money between accounts, but that you're creating connections. And this sort of, yeah, like, acknowledgement of a connection between me and someone else can represent, like, a follow or a subscribe, as you would use in a, in a normal platform. Yeah. And maybe the question also is that, you know, maybe it's also like a question that is are those connections valuable? So for example, like, as a creator, do you see that, for example, you know, if if you follow someone or someone follows you back and you kind of, like, form a online friendship, the like, does it have value? And then and then how do you quantify? So for example, if you have 500 readers on your newsletter, how do you actually value that, as well? I yeah. For me, I guess, I mean, you're talking to someone who has made a lot of connections thanks to the internet, which I'm grateful for. I sometimes, like, like it sometimes feels a bit uncomfortable to think about, like, what how how do I value necessarily a relationship, or, like, how do I value, like, someone else over the Internet? But I think what is what is interesting, or what is actually not so different than what we already have today, is, for example, like, things like Patreon, which, you know, I have, which I have a page for, and people can give me money, for Patreon. And they may get bonus episodes that I infrequently, release that I should probably do more of, that I always forget or don't have time for. But I think most of those people who do give, I have the impression, are not necessarily doing it because they want to, because I'm give I'm giving them a commodity or something like that because I'm giving them something, but because they're giving they're giving probably because they care about the work that I do and they want to see it continue and, like, me to be able to at least make some money off of it. So, like, this idea when you're talking about NFTs and collection, it reminds me of of basically doing, like, comp like, opening the design space a bit more for what how people can express support for people that they know online, whether that is something that is like a a mutual relationship or if that is like a parasocial one because, you you know, they just like a creator, but they don't know them personally or something like that. That's that's kind of how I see it. So you, like, you can offer to collect something for free just because you find it interesting, or you can collect something and provide some money because you are a patron, which is different than, like, a relationship and like like a business relationship. Like, that's it's not I don't think like, people can treat it that way, but I don't think that most people do do it that way. I I do like the approach for, opening the design space because I think we're, the the way we're thinking about, content and Internet, it it it it it definitely has been standardized in our minds. But if you take just, like, few steps, you know, back and think about, like, you know, the same piece of content, you you know, it can be consumed, in in a way where you're paying for the content, or you can read it for free. And I I think, you know, when I was very young and and growing up in in in Finland, some of the things that I wanted to consume and read, you know, I went to library. So, at that point, I I basically went to read different kinds of newspapers that were, fascinating to me. Maybe, for example, different kinds of financial news. You have also, like, TV, like, might be state sponsored. You might pay for additional content. But it's just like a showcase is that necessarily the same piece of content doesn't need to be, priced in a way where, you know, everyone necessarily is paying the same thing even if you let's say you read a piece of, a a blog post, and and everyone can actually consume it. Doesn't need to necessarily be behind of a paywall. And I actually think that that Internet is going towards direction of a paywall, so we're seeing more and more, different kinds of news outlets actually, putting lot of the, lot of the consumption behind, a a paid, service. But I believe that, you know, you can actually monetize and, get support from your audience, by leaving the choice for, the actual, consumers of the content on, whether to pay for the content or not. And it would have to pay. I I think the collect is a way of actually appreciating, you know, that I want, this creator to actually continue, finding new exciting things and and and seeing future new content. So in in some sort of ways when you're collecting something, it's, it it it it's basically funding or, placing, a a bet that's, you know, there's gonna be in the future more exciting content that you wanna, see. And and it also gives more, flexibility for the consumer to think about, like, whether I'm, capable of, paying for this content. And also, like, takes a a bit more different kind of approach where, you know, every single person should pay the same thing. But maybe, you know, I'm in a position to pay today. Some of those might be in in tomorrow as long as you have some sort of pricing mechanism that, you're able to do as a creator, what you, love to do. So so there it it really opens the design space and, we've have been doing some research on on why people collect and and some of these reasons are that they wanna support, they want additional, things or, a third one which is very interesting is that, they wanna be part of a, a community. So if you are collecting someone a a provider's, let's say, content, you know, you're you're part of that community so that the the provider recognizes that. And, that can be used in different ways, in in in the future. So it can be purely fully without, utility, but it it it definitely has that kind of value aspect there. Yeah. I think that it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's interesting because, I mean, on one side, you know, one of the, I guess, criticisms about the creator economy or, like, artists putting their their content online and what that's what that's what has, like, been caused out of it is, like, especially if you look at music, is kind of like the downward spiral of, like, how, or the the cheapening of art or, like, cheapening of of content. And I think that's opening up that design. Like, right now, that is the design that we are kind of, like, forced into. It's sort of like this, race to the bottom, I think a bit, with a lot of these platforms and how they work and And with AI. How they extract. And now with the AI, who knows how that's going to, fuck things up. The opening of that design space, I think, allows for, just like new types of expression that people may be more interested in in being a part of that don't necessarily commodify the art or the content. And so one of the things that I wanted to get to is that, you know, like, people think of now, you hear a lot, like social media platforms consider users as the product, or at least a big part of the product in which they sell these advertising packages that are sold based on your posting history and based on, you know, like which market category you fit in. They want you to they sell probably higher prices for more expensive users or wealthier users. But this sort of came about because, you know, some will say that no one wanted to pay for anything over the Internet. Like that was like people were afraid to put in their credit cards. They didn't want to, do, like, micro payments or things like that. And it's only pretty recent that that and I think Patreon, actually, I would argue that's a separate discussion. That's kind of, like, opened up that door a little bit. But so everyone sort of like expected or wanted everything for free. But now with, Web three, crypto, whatever you want to call it, it introduces the potential for new revenue models or new, ways of of of making money. So, like, knowing that, big tech social media is sort of in the camp of, everything is free, but we're selling you and that's our revenue model. Like, what is the revenue model for Lens or or even, like, what are some alternative types of, revenue models for, this type of Web three point zero social media? Yeah. And I I think it's actually quite interesting how people think about getting things free online because, I I also think it it it it definitely boils down to in one perspective to the point that, you know, people were scared to put the credit card online. You know, whenever you were purchasing anything, you went to look at the reviews, you know, whether this is actually a a, credible, online, you know, ecommerce shop, for example. But there's also another issue related to that is that, you know, there wasn't, for quite a while, ways of of paying online. So, you know, PayPal changed that quite significantly. Stripe Stripe made it even easier. But at the same time, the the amount of, kind of, like, a free content expanded online. And I I think it's a good it's it's really a good thing as well. So, like, the the way I see it is that what, Web one did, and me who you know, I grew up over the Internet. I used to play a lot of, you know, video games and and, the more bandwidth I got, like, the more the more more games I played. But at the same time, you know, I was spending a lot of time on actually, learning online. So if I compare the amounts of spending, online learning things versus, spending time, you know, growing up in school. Definitely, I spend more time learning, over the Internet. And what I realized is that, this access to to free content is, like, very democratizing. So, you can get any information, whatever you want to learn. That does it doesn't exist in your local library, especially coming from a small country, from the Nordics. You don't have, you know, the same access to information or same access to people. And that creates a bit of inequality. Right? And I think Internet did it pretty well of actually establishing first as, very scale, free information, free access, content, and and we had this amazing open source movement. And, you know, that's one of the reasons why, 99.9 something percent of of most of the servers are running open source software. Linux, for example, and Linux Doorbell is another, example from from another, Finnish person, building open source. That's right. Yeah. But what I what I see fascinating is that the the WebOne, you know, created this kind of like a democratization opportunity that now, you know, everyone can have access to the base information, and and kind of, like, left, like, left on the side, like, how we we're gonna monetize. And it actually feels very, hard to see these days when you're looking at the Wikipedia page, you know, and you have this, donation popping up with, like, you know, can you, donate two pounds or $2, for, keeping Biggie Betty running, which is like like in one perspective kind of like, it's one of the most important, like, online libraries and source of informations for every single person in the planet. So, and with web two, we we created more of like platforms where, we put people together and very easy create them easy tools, to create that content. So we don't need any more, you know, authorities or university pages or a certificate. But, like, anyone can actually create content that is, valuable. There's insights. There's knowledge. There's resource resources. And then pretty much like the the the idea where how we can actually monetize, you know, everything derived to ads because, you know, you have this, history of of not monetizing. And and, you know, that's why what social media platforms are interested when they are, you know, building their product is that how often they can get you back, how much time you spend. And the more time you spend on the platforms, and, the more you engage, the more they can actually sell ads, but also the more they can actually charge for those ads. So it's it's very ads driven, mechanism. But now, like, if you look into, the the the reality where we are from technical standpoints, you can actually pretty much monetize, lot of the content. And that's why I'm I'm thinking why Internet some part of the the content, especially kind of like a premium content, is moving behind a paywall, in in in in more of, like, a news site. When when you want to read some, interesting article on on a online newspaper, you know, you you hit very quickly the the the the request to sign up and and and subscribe. But I think what's, valuable is that, instead of actually just hiding the content, how do we can actually keep the content democratic. So how we can allow anyone the access to to see at least most of the, relevant base information that that people need and insights to keep them up to date. And at the same time, how we can support the creators. And by support, I don't really mean that, you know, we want to ensure that the creators get, enough funds to, you know, write a next story or pay their bills, but actually how they can actually build businesses, that could even scale on on this new model of of of Webtree. That's why I think, like, the, NFTs are, very exciting way to monetize user generated content where we keep the information, democratically accessible. But at the same time, we can create models where and and design where where actually there's subscribers that are willing to come, and and pay. And I think we're suffering in the Internet and also, in in Webtree a bit about this idea of, we shouldn't be, monetizing and everything should be open source. But I think, monetization and incentives, are a good way of actually creating a a bit more democratic culture, and and steer people towards direction where, we just build more, better things. So it's it's something that we as a space we have to overcome, but also the blockchain itself provides, fascinating infrastructure, to monetize because the whole narrative of, the blockchain started from, for example, from Bitcoin, evolved into more programmable monetary Ethereum, and and now, beyond financial applications into, let's say, Web three social, and then having, you know, DAOs, these decentralized organizations with treasuries and capital allocations. So, I think we kind of, like, are approaching now the the the challenges that, you know, what if the the financial layer, is is baked in, you know, and and there's different kinds of incentives to ensure that we are able to produce and build things, in a way where it it it it still serves a public good general purpose, and creators can actually make a living and build businesses, around the the the infrastructure. So then how does, at the moment as it works, does Lens, for example, like, take take a cut of sell of sales of, like, an NFT of something that's collected? Or how does, like, I how does Lens sustain itself, like, compared to yeah. Like, we know how so how, like, Facebook sustains itself. How does how does Lens sustain itself? Or what is is is there a plan for, trying to do that? In terms of monetization on the on the protocol level, so there is built in monetization mechanisms for the protocol. So so it can take a fee out of, all the clicks or, any other kind of revenue that could be, for example, users paying to follow, a particular user, for, mirroring fees. So mirroring is similar to sharing or pre tweeting and being able to capture those fees. So down the line, that is something that can be activated. We we, as a team, we hope that that happens more of when the protocol gets more decentralized. It's it's further built down the line. So we are at version one now, and it's live on on on Polygon. But down the line, but we expect that, many of these monetization decisions on a protocol level happen, through, the community. And one, big difference about, Lens is that, you might see a content created, let's say, one of the applications built on top. So let's say, Leinster, which is an open source client that, you know, anyone can fork and and, build their own version. So so for example, the content might be created in Lanser but collected in another application. So let's say, butterfly or orb. These are the two example, applications or or favor, and they might be collected there in this in the another application or mirrored and and somewhere else collected. So, all these applications, they can actually share, the fees that they're collecting with the protocol itself between all these applications, between users. So you have these different kinds of layers of monetization, but the, the key difference here is that, you know, it's it's very much, symbiotic. So, they're growing together and sharing fees, which is kind of unheard of. One, let's say, bigger social media platform sharing, directly with another one based on the content that is, created. So they serve to each other, content creation, that liquidity. They serve to each other distribution experiences, onboarding more users, and it's kind of like a building towards, the same, social drafts that that pulls pulls them, together. And in itself, the protocol is very modularized. So, obviously, it's mainly based on smart contracts. So there's, modules that you can create that might have additional functionality. So recently, we created, a module that allows also token gated content. So, you pay a fee, and and this enables, to unlock the content and see what's, what was hidden, as a user. If you want that kind of like a typical, Internet paywall, experience as well. So it's end of the day, Lens protocol is is just a, different kinds of, Web three social primitives that can be applied to different kinds of use cases. So you might select just, oh, I want to have, you know, the collects for for the content. I wanna keep profiles also on chain, but I might have I want I might want to keep the followings, in a in a cloud because I wanna create a a bit more private, social network. So I'm I'm gonna use, the best ingredients. So I'm I'm I'm I'm as application builder or integrator, I'm choosing what parts I wanna use on chain and what parts I wanna use, on on chain, for my use case. And and based on your use case, you decide the monetization, but there's this kind of like a waterfall effect that's, you know, a waterfall or a river. It it basically gives, and it empowers every single, farm, city, country that that the that the river actually, floats over, which is quite interesting. So, yeah, if I could, summarize that maybe. Like, you have the so you have the social graph, which is being recorded on chain Yeah. Which is the, kinda, like, the back end of the social media platform that you may want to build. Other, because it's on chain and it's this shared database, Distributed Ledger, any one else is able to create a front end on top of that. And the protocol itself, I guess, is malleable enough for different types of content. It's like I've tried out Lenster and I've tried out LensTube for for the most part, and I saw that, like, when I if I, like, shared or mirrored a video, it showed up on my Lenster, which is, like, the Twitter like Yeah. Social media. So I was and, you know, when you go through, like, the lens protocol sort of home page, you can see that there are many different types of, front ends, different front ends that are available that you can use use the same social graph that is associated with your, Ethereum wallet. So it's it's, the incentives are changed, quite a bit there. Yeah. And it's kind of fascinating because, those two examples, Lancer and Lens Tube, they're just two example applications that were built to, you know, LensTree was built by one developer who built it during a hackathon, a two week hackathon, and just kind of like, as a community contributor. And LensDB is also built by one, developer. So it actually shows, like, how little, energy or, let's say, like, input it requires to build a functional, social media application. I'm personally more excited about all the new things you can actually build and as make it more easier. You could build very quickly a social media experience. Let's say that's something that is very new, to to to your space, or or or or or globally, and you can actually try more. So you can try to build new things. And if they don't work, you can build a new thing and you don't spend, like, couple of years trying to build an audience when you can actually just build an application. And because it's powered by Lens, you get the 100 or so thousand Web three native users. I actually think even, we'll get more integrations that, integrations into existing Web three applications. So I could see, for example, Lens being, valuable, as a social layer across the whole Web three ecosystem. So you will see you will see basic integrations in, beef applications or or DAO tools where, you can actually use the native, primitives, like, you know, the the commenting, logging with your, profile, sharing the content, or let's say governance proposals across the, lens protocol and the other, features there. Because whenever I ask, the the actual creators so there's sort of news creators, there's also a few podcasters, and and and writers. And I I usually ask, like, what what brings them back to to Lens? And and in many cases is from what I hear from these Webtree native, creators is that, it's a place for Webtree audiences, which is fascinating because, what it means is that if you are a new creator, and you are excited about the Webtree primitives, like the, collectibles, or, you know, owning your, online presence or or just you might be interested just in DeFi or some other topic in the space. That's the right audience to to share content and and and and talk to because they are familiar of of, you know, what our collects, for example, and and they might have, also, they have already a track record of collecting. And it ties everyone together from the same concept, but, it doesn't restrict, for example, for me, starting to post, food pictures across the enhanced protocol and communicate and get engaged with other people who are posting food pictures, and and then kind of, like, grow the social graph with other types of, interests. So it's fascinating to see that the it it ties Webtree people together, but also acts as a distribution channel, to create an audience that is, Webtree native. Right. And also just not, I guess, tied to a single front end application that you may happen to be using, which I think, is interesting. And as well, to what you said kind of earlier, holding off on it sounds like you guys are holding off on sort of, like, the monetization or revenue model for Lens. There's a possibility there that perhaps for later, but it opens the door, not that I'm insinuating what exactly you guys are going to do, but it opens the door or possibility for a kind of collectively owned or governed, social graph protocol. So you're like, so there is the possibility, like, of, you know, there was a few years ago, maybe I think, I can't remember how long now, but people had been, wanting to turn Twitter into a cooperative, for example Yeah. As, like, kind of a joke because because they they were, I think their Twitter was, like, going to be sold or something like that and people were like, alright, let's, you know, like, maybe we can pool some money together and we can turn Twitter into a cooperative. But of course, like, it's just, like, given the legal sort of financial, and legal system, like, it's just, like, a huge task to undertake that just, like, is not really possible under US law and to do it that's, like, across, like, national borders, like, it it it's it's not possible. But, having one built on smart contracts, on a blockchain, opens up the design space a bit more to where maybe that that is a possibility where you can have a social media platform or really it's the social graph is, like, ownable, by the users who who actually use it, which I think is, pretty interesting. And I I think it's very it's it's very valuable for creators, especially because, when when you build an audience, you really wanna have the connections. You really wanna have a voice, and and the distribution. It might be less, for example, valuable for, a user that is just, like, using social media to, maybe just, showcase. Yeah. Or even like I mean, I do I I do that quite a lot, but, like, I I mean, like, for example, that's, if if you don't really care about your, you know, social graph, then, you know, you could just keep your followers in in a, more traditional, database or some sort of, federated model. So, like, like, I I guess, like, if it must master them, for example, one of the issues is that, you know, when, someone quits, hosting a server, you know, that the data availability is lost. So for example, that's the content and, in most cases, also the, the identity part. And I I know that some of the projects like, Twitter's, Blue Sky is trying to solve, a bit the portability challenge that, also the the the federated networks have. But, like, with the blockchain based guarantees, you can actually have the data data availability, and also execution. So data validity means that, you know, you have those followers and that's your audience. And then the execution that comes from the blockchain is if you want to apply that too with Lens protocol, it means, for example, that maybe only people that follow me, or collect one of my items can actually, comment or whoever has collected previously my content can, be the first person to to comment whatever I I might have or, decrypt something that is, you know, token gated. So you can create this kind of like a, verified jewels, based on, activity. And I I find this very fascinating because, on chain data and blockchain based data, we we kind of, like, are creating it all the time, and we love the idea of, like, you know, transparent markets and understanding, like, what's happening in, decentralized finance, and understanding, let's say, like, colorizations of different, protocols. But at the same time, we're creating this kind of like a, on chain Webtree, economic footprint, and each of us has their own Webtree footprint. And based on that, it actually helps to create verified data points that could be used in, for example, in credit in the future. Very typical problem is that when you move from one country to another, you you can't really passport your credit history, for example. But something that's, on chain, verified, depending on how much verification you need and and what kind of data, that's that's basically cross border and that could be used in various different use cases. And we're just so early that's, we don't have those, use cases yet. And and then on top of that, base layer, you can build different kinds of things, like, for example, privacy, private networks, and and apply anything that specifically is is needed without actually then creating a situation where the users need to give up of their, you know, ownership of their, profiles and and their distribution. So I I find, I I find the the blockchain component very valuable piece of giving guarantees and also, debt modernization part. And and the reason for that is also that, if you think about, like, financial capital, a lot of people have, let's say, financial wealth. But what every single person in the planet has is the social capital. So, you know, the connections you create, the network you have, the distribution, and not being able to actually have ownership over that is is very, hard challenge at this point. And I think, that can that's gonna be one of the features of Lens that will be appreciated, over the long run because, creator it it it gives the ownership, but it also changes the dynamic. So, the creators and the users, they have more actually power, and pool of of of how these applications and algorithms are built because, not only the computation is done by open data, but at the same time, it opens up the competition. So what decentralized finance did to finance is that, it democratizes democratized the the access to to build next generation financial, applications. And with, Lens and Web three social, what happens also is that anyone can actually come and build better algorithms. And as a user, you have more choice. So if we go back to the the previous discussion where we're thinking about the monetization models, and how the algorithms will work, in in web two space, they have to be tuned into, profitability. They have to basically be tuned into, getting you to come more often into the application. And and and then that allows those platforms to actually charge more for, the ads, which is kind of a, crazy idea because probably the most of the exciting, social media use cases might be coming from applications where you might just open them, you know, once a week to do something, like, very, very valuable, but less frequently. And if we are able to monetize that and provide that as a kind of, like, a business that could be built on top of these open protocols, I think we're in in a quite good path. Yeah. So so maybe some of my my closing thoughts since I know, we're at the top of the hour. But, yeah. For me, I see, like, blockchains are already a social graph. Mhmm. It's just that they're sort of, for the most part, it's kind of, tracking one type of social interaction, which are usually based on finance, usually based on money or something like that. Transactions, yeah. But, but it's still, like, it's been helpful for me at least, like, for just for an example, I have, like, airdrops, you know, bread tokens from the crowd seeking application that we built on top of AAVE. I got airdrops, like, the first little bits to people who have bought NFTs of, like, the mirror blog posts that we posted before. Yeah. I would not have known I would not have been able to do that, like, without a blockchain. Like, that's just it would not be possible. That was a way to, like I was not planning to do that, but afterwards I was like, maybe that would be, like, a good idea because all that is tracked. Like, all that is is known, so I can reward the people who helped out afterward after the fact, with a with a little bit of, tokens. And then the other part I wanted to, mention I think was interesting is that, like, the algorithm in which you see information, that you see in your feed, is a front end capability. Like that's that's, which means that each application can show information based on different needs. So you can go to the maybe you'll have a choice between, the application that is, meant to give you, tweets that make you angry versus another one that gives you tweets, that make you happy or whatever. You know, like, that that optimizes for different types of interaction and while still using the same, back end and and social graph. So I think this is like this this, idea of, like, creating more competition in the in the front end of social media space. Yeah. Exactly. And the the the the actual the very front end, you know, it it can be really anything. It can be a front end that is actually, living and existing in IPFS or one of these data availability layers, or you can work exactly like, a normal, Internet application in terms of experiences and and whatnot. So typically, when when you go one of these applications, whether it's like Lancer or, you know, Butterfly Paper, like, and and bunch of other ones that has been built. They they also have very optimistic way of building. So when you, create a post or you comment, that is reflected to you right away. So you will you it it will feel to you as it's a normal ancient application and the blockchain logic is happening, in in the background, creating a transaction and, and and and and and and so forth. So a lot of the things are actually abstracted away from the users, and this was one of the core, decisions that we made in the very early that, you know, if we want to build for, you know, adoption and users that are less technical and we wanna want more more people into the space, we really need to think about, like, how we get into the same level as all these applications, but we will have, the guarantees that something like a blockchain data availability, or any other other decent use technology actually, provides. And that was, like, a very important, decision from us, and also learning because it wasn't easy to achieve and educate all the users that, no. You actually, you know, you press you you press this button, and you don't need to pay gas. You don't need to sign for transactions. You know, everything just happens in the background. Like, it it really feels and educating also all the, integrators and and people who are building, on top of the lens protocol. So that's that's kind of that was kind of, like, a, decision that we, made. But end of the day, it's a set of primitives that were whatever is your use case for some applications, they they just want to have the ability to sign in with your, lens profile and and maybe show things. And I really like what you said about, the fact that the whole blockchain is a social graph and and full of interactions because that's the way I see it. And we use part of that, on chain data to actually onboard, a lot of the early adopters. So the protocol is still in beta. So there's, roughly 100, 14,000, users that has been, that has meant minted a Lens profile. And the way we actually have been onboarding is that we we've been looking to looking into the, on chain data and and seeing, like, here's a group of people who have been using, DAOs or donated to Gitcoin or, deposited into the other protocol or, collected, a mirror post. Maybe they might have a interest in actually trying out, the Lens ecosystem and white listed those addresses. And and and based on that WebTree footprint, we're able to kind of, like, see the early, community. And and, obviously, then all the events that we had, in in in Ethereum hackathons and and and being able to, create meetups. We recently had a meetup in, San Francisco, for for Lens, and and we, white listed a lot of, meetup participants. So it's an interesting kind of, like, a way how you can use on chain data, that way. And at the same time, I see Lens protocol being kind of like a organized way of creating distribution, to distribute content, and connect with peers. And so so that's those are the kind of, like, a primitives that that make makes Lens social, and and valuable across the whole Webtree space as a as a social graph. Nice. Yeah. I'm, I mean, I'm I'm sympathetic to, to the efforts, because yeah. I mean, I think I think by now everybody realizes we need some sort of alternative to social media. Just like, I think there's just so much there's so much inertia with people being on social on certain social media platforms. But, yeah, I'm really hoping that within my lifetime, at the very least, we'll see people begin to transition away from away from these big tech platforms and begin to think about the, the positive benefits to using something like a protocol instead of a platform. And I and I and I think also that's, because we have seen a lot of movements recently. So we've seen, people going from Twitter to Mastodon and and, you know, realizing, oh, the experience wasn't the same or maybe the interactions weren't went the same that that they had in in, let's say, in Twitter or other social media platforms. So, like, I what I learned from, for example, from, Aave previously and, going forward is that, like, for adoption, we we simply just need to build a better, you know, faster and stronger, software or applications or, communities. So I I I think the fact that something is decentralized or it's, like, having that, ideological perspective necessarily don't bring the users. So, what I like to do is I I like to bake in those kind of, like, user guarantees, into, into the protocol, and ensure that, like, everything that we we kind of, like, build. I mean, like like, our our vision at at Avaya is that we want to build a people powered Internet that benefits all. And the way I'm trying to think about this vision is that we bake into the, protocol these guarantees that that are good for the users and bring them close to the decision making. But then when it goes to actually adoption, and getting users, we we have to build just better applications and experiences that are more exciting. And I I think that's that's the kind of, like, aware we've been able we've been able to be, somewhat successful in the past, and I think has the right ingredients to get more, folks into the space. And then as they become users and and they are switching from one application to another as as you put your example between LensTub and Linster, they realize that, oh, actually, you know, I don't need to worry about giving up my, network to a platform because I actually have another choice and that comes as a realization. I think that's where we wanna be, in the future. Nice. Yeah. Thanks so much for, coming on and talking about Lens protocol. Maybe just to end it off, would you like to share, with people where they can keep up with the sort of latest updates on Lens, and perhaps maybe, how could people potentially join, the white list? Yeah. A lot of content I've share about Lens, and and we message, through the the actual Lens protocol. So one of the applications, Lensr, or Lens Tube, Butterfly Favor and all there there's I calculate there's roughly 200 different kinds of apps being built, and and some are actual, you know, businesses and some are more of hacking them projects, experimentations. And if you don't have a lens profile yet, you can DM me on Twitter, and I can give you a, profile so you can test the the the beta, as long as you give me some feedback. And that's all all from my side. I see. You're handling all that manually. I do a lot of manually. So I, we do, you know, we we list participants based on some meetup events and Web three social. I I would say, like, Web three data, like, the on chain data. But I really like also the manual listing and and just to give feedback and and how we can, build better social. Nice. There you go. Go DM Stani on, on Twitter, and you can get on Lens as well. 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You are listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast. And for today's interview, I have Stani Kulechov. He is the founder of AAVE, which is a DeFi lending protocol, and as well, LENS protocol, which is a new type of social media, which is meant to take advantage of the affordances of blockchains, of Web3 technology, to sort of rethink how we structure different social media platforms. But before we get into that, I think it would be great, Stani, if you can maybe, you can give like a little introduction, but also, if you could explain AAVE to people, since that's where I think like, that's how you became famous, I guess, was through AAVE.\n\nAnd it's also the protocol that the or the DeFi application that the bread chain crowd sticking application, which is what, I've built with my, with my, my fun little side project called bread chain.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm. And so\n\nSpeaker 0: I thought it'd be really nice if you can maybe explain what that is and, yeah, what is unique about it.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Definitely. And and and thanks for, using the the other protocol. So, what Aave is is is, you know, as a as a user, you can supply cryptographic assets, into the other protocol, and receive yield, on those, assets. And at the same time, you can use those assets as a collateral, to borrow other kind of assets.\n\nSo typical example is that you might have, some ETH, sitting on your wallet, that you don't wanna spend, because you are, delivering the, Ethereum ecosystem, but you would like to see that balance grow. So what you do is that you supply these assets into the protocol, but at the same time, you want to use, a bit of that, net for capital that you have, stuck in in it. So what you could do is you could borrow, stablecoins, from the other protocol, without any intermediaries. So you are interacting directly with the, smart contract infrastructure, the protocol itself, and finance, some sort of a goal. That could be, you know, that could be tuition, that could be mortgage, you know, a car or, you know, any kind of finance goal you you might have in, mind.\n\nAnd as a protocol, it means that, it's just a set of infrastructure that has been built, and deployed, in multiple different, EVM based, blockchains, Ethereum, Polygon, Avalanche, and so called layer twos, Optimism and and Arbitrium. So, effectively, because it's an infrastructure, anyone can can actually, use that infrastructure. So we call it as, a public good. And I think for me, personally, the fascinating part is that, as our team has built the protocol, we don't really control it. So, there's actually formal governance, over the other protocol, meaning that the token holders come together over the blockchain and actually make decisions on how the Aave protocol has is gonna be, improved in the future or changing different kinds of, risk parameters, interest rate strategies.\n\nAnd and the team itself doesn't have any ability to change what is out there, which is kind of a a cold thing for us.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. So, like, the way that, to kind of maybe to simplify it for some people who may be listening, you in order to use AAVE, you would provide collaterals. You would give, you know, perhaps, it could be Ether, it could be DAI, it could be any of these type of crypto tokens that are on an EVM chain. You can then borrow assets of a different token that is of less value than what you've given collateral, so it's always over collateralized. And you can use that for various reasons why you would do that as for trading or as for, you know, whatever it is that you want want to accomplish.\n\nYeah. So we use that. Good.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I just say that's, I would say roughly 70% of the protocol, users are simply supplying, assets to earn. So they're they're not actually borrowing, anything out of the, protocol itself.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. Most people are are are lending than they are borrowing.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Exactly.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. And that's basically what we use it for, with Breadchain as well. We just lend out DAI so that we can earn a yield off of that DAI to help fund the cooperative and we create sort of a wrapped token for that that people can use within the network. But so since the success of AAVE over the past few years, you've kind of transitioned now into social media. You've gone from DeFi to social media using the same type of tools that you've built AAVE with.\n\nBut maybe before we get into what Lens protocol is and how it works and how it's different, I think it would be interesting to know, I guess for you, what are the what is the problem with social media today as you see it and which kind of lens is meant to, to solve for?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I I see different layers of, challenges in in the current, social media landscape. I like to always kind of, like, approach, the social media challenge from a perspective where, seeing social media as as a place of, having digital, town squares. So for example, if you go back in history, there's been always some sort of a venue or a forum where people come together and and they make different kinds of, either decisions or they share news, or, you know, they they get informed and educate themselves. So, that has been happening in the ancient Greek times and and and and even way longer, in history.\n\nSo that's the kind of, like, a people coming together, component. And the second thing is that we've, we usually also form lot of relationships online, and and form lot of social capital. So it's very, normal and human behavior to to actually create relationships. You know? You, might create, friendships in in whatever you are going school, for example, your workplace, with your neighbors and and and whatnot.\n\nBut what is fascinating is that now, especially with the past decades, more and more that creation of social capital actually happens, over online. So, for example, that's if if you look at today, we have roughly five, billion people, over over the Internet and almost equal amount of, social media users, at at this point. But, effectively, what we see today is that many of the users are creating that social capital or creating content in a platforms where they really don't have, a specific ownership. So if that platform, for example, goes, down or disappears, what basically happened with Myspace, you know, they, they lost their data, while back ago. You really don't have the ownership of those connections you make.\n\nBut, actually, if you think about the, real, like, use cases, you know, when you make connections, I would say, like, off chain, what happens is that, you know, you form those relations and and they exist. But in the global, Internet economy and, our presence, you know, it's it's very, hard to create, audiences and own. And with Lens, our goal is to approach the challenge from the perspective of being able to create a profile that you own, and it's secured by the blockchain and also being able to create an audience. So, we create different kinds of relationships on online, and and what is happening is that, we create them inside of a platform. So we really don't have the ownership, for that audience.\n\nSo, for example, that's, if if if I want to actually go into another venue, another, digital town square, I can't actually take my audience, with me into this new, venue. And and that's the kind of, like, a challenge where, you know, we don't really have the ownership of the connections and online presence we're making today, online. And blockchain is interesting way to solve this challenge because in the first place, what Bitcoin was trying to do is to actually solve the idea of being able to have ownership over your, monetary value and and being able to transact, peer to peer without intermediaries. And with Ethereum and EVM, we we took one step forward and made actually that, that finance programmable. And and with Lens protocol and and the, Web three social, the idea is to extend it further that if you can actually own, your own, wealth and your own, money, you you should be able to also own your, identity and and your online presence, and change the kind of dynamics that we have today on online where platforms are the ones that, decide upon different kinds of policies and and how users, see content, or how the monetization works today.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. I mean, you're talking to, someone who, is unfortunately a online content creator. So I definitely understand, like, where that's like, the the idea of being able to port your audience to someplace else, like, I have sympathies for because I have thought about, like, you know, at any moment, what if, you know, Elon Musk or whoever is that, the CEO of Patreon, I don't know, they don't like me anymore. Like, I don't have very many options, which is why, I have been kind of, like, exploring, for example, like NFTs as a way for people to subscribe as an alternative. Because there is there is this risk, that I think, what my Matt Dreherst has called platform risk Yep.\n\nThat a lot of artists and creators have is that at any moment, you know, you don't know whenever a platform may disappear. In which case, you as an individual user who has zero, I guess, ownership or real stake into a platform, like, you have no you have no recourse for what happens. And, you're not, like, you're you're not the highest priority, for the platform. It's whoever their their shareholders are.\n\nSpeaker 1: And and typically when you look at these platforms, especially when they're related to, for example, the not the entertainment part of the, online social media, but actually to the part of act to on the part of creating news, for example, and sharing opinions, that's where, a little of the the the actual, I would say kind of, like, interactions becomes, more political. And that's part, it's it's very kind of, like, hard to create a very equal, accessible and and fair environment online, from the perspective when the users don't really have a choice, to select their, platforms. And I I think what's radically gonna be different in the future, especially with with Webtree, is that, you know, you can actually start having that choice. So you have the flexibility to go from one, application, to another, change your experience, but also maybe subscribe into a different kind of a content moderation policy that resonates your values more without actually losing your, distribution. And I think that's where the value is for for, for users.\n\nAnd when we create that flexibility, and opportunity, what happens also is that these platforms and applications, they really need to, think about then, well, how we actually can compete in this environment where the users can now actually move very easily from one place to another, and, they retain ownership of their, audience. And I think that's where where we're gonna have a, like, a very big moment of realization that, you know, it's it's actually people own their voice. It belongs to them, but we need to find the experiences that actually, give them reach, for their audiences.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. I think so. A lot of the things that you're mentioning now, I think you're you're alluding to, some of the stuff that Lens protocol is meant to, is meant to solve. So maybe if you could, from a high level, like, how does Lens protocol works? And I think, yeah, how how if you could add to that as well, like, how does a protocol differ from a platform like Twitter, like Facebook, or whatever else?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Similar to Aave, so Lens protocol, most of the infrastructure is, deployed, into the blockchain. So, the reason we use blockchain is because it's a good way of giving different kinds of guarantees, for the users. So where, the other protocol gives you the guarantees of, certain type of, yield, for example, based on verified interest rate formula, certain type of execution, Lens protocol provides you the guarantee of ownership of your, profile, your online presence. And that ownership is also tokenized, as an NFT.\n\nSo you can move it from one wallet to another. We can store it in your cold storage, delegate the ability to post from from another, address. And then, you also have the idea of, social graph. So the the connections you are, making over online, and that's also secured by the the blockchain as well. So, it's it's basically a a tool set for, any user to create online presence and and have an ownership, and distribution.\n\nBut at the same time, it also creates ability to create, a brand, for example, as well. And one last interesting, like, bigger, benefit of the protocol is that all the content that you create, you can, tokenize them as NFTs. So we're expanding the idea of, art or music being, tokenized NFTs into, any user generated content, being able to tokenize as NFTs. So what it actually means, for users is that if you like some specific content, you can actually go and collect that content. And the creator can actually set, a a fee.\n\nIt can be also free collect, but can also, set a fee. So it's this idea in Webtree where, there isn't necessarily, like, a good explanation of what NFTs or buying or collecting NFTs actually mean. But there's different kinds of, interpretations there. And and one of them where I think it's it it it kind of, like, it makes a lot of sense to me is that it's a way to actually consume content. And by consumption means you are able to signal that you actually, are supporting, this piece of content, and you might also want to support the creator as well and and be part of, that community of of, whatever content you're, consuming.\n\nSo it's kind of like a a fascinating concept from, like, the the creator, content creation perspective, like, what an NFT is of a particular content because it might be anything. It might not be just a picture of art. It it can actually be just one, you know, one word or, you know, one sentence that that is just, like, culturally relevant or relevant for that audience to to collect.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. So, yeah, there's a couple things there. So, like, to me, Lens sounds like it's basically taking, using the world computer, or however you want to call it, as like the back end for, upkeep of a social graph in which you are making connections with other wallets. Not necessarily that you are sending money between accounts, but that you're creating connections. And this sort of, yeah, like, acknowledgement of a connection between me and someone else can represent, like, a follow or a subscribe, as you would use in a, in a normal platform.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And maybe the question also is that, you know, maybe it's also like a question that is are those connections valuable? So for example, like, as a creator, do you see that, for example, you know, if if you follow someone or someone follows you back and you kind of, like, form a online friendship, the like, does it have value? And then and then how do you quantify? So for example, if you have 500 readers on your newsletter, how do you actually value that, as well?\n\nSpeaker 0: I yeah. For me, I guess, I mean, you're talking to someone who has made a lot of connections thanks to the internet, which I'm grateful for. I sometimes, like, like it sometimes feels a bit uncomfortable to think about, like, what how how do I value necessarily a relationship, or, like, how do I value, like, someone else over the Internet? But I think what is what is interesting, or what is actually not so different than what we already have today, is, for example, like, things like Patreon, which, you know, I have, which I have a page for, and people can give me money, for Patreon. And they may get bonus episodes that I infrequently, release that I should probably do more of, that I always forget or don't have time for.\n\nBut I think most of those people who do give, I have the impression, are not necessarily doing it because they want to, because I'm give I'm giving them a commodity or something like that because I'm giving them something, but because they're giving they're giving probably because they care about the work that I do and they want to see it continue and, like, me to be able to at least make some money off of it. So, like, this idea when you're talking about NFTs and collection, it reminds me of of basically doing, like, comp like, opening the design space a bit more for what how people can express support for people that they know online, whether that is something that is like a a mutual relationship or if that is like a parasocial one because, you you know, they just like a creator, but they don't know them personally or something like that. That's that's kind of how I see it. So you, like, you can offer to collect something for free just because you find it interesting, or you can collect something and provide some money because you are a patron, which is different than, like, a relationship and like like a business relationship.\n\nLike, that's it's not I don't think like, people can treat it that way, but I don't think that most people do do it that way.\n\nSpeaker 1: I I do like the approach for, opening the design space because I think we're, the the way we're thinking about, content and Internet, it it it it it definitely has been standardized in our minds. But if you take just, like, few steps, you know, back and think about, like, you know, the same piece of content, you you know, it can be consumed, in in a way where you're paying for the content, or you can read it for free. And I I think, you know, when I was very young and and growing up in in in Finland, some of the things that I wanted to consume and read, you know, I went to library. So, at that point, I I basically went to read different kinds of newspapers that were, fascinating to me. Maybe, for example, different kinds of financial news.\n\nYou have also, like, TV, like, might be state sponsored. You might pay for additional content. But it's just like a showcase is that necessarily the same piece of content doesn't need to be, priced in a way where, you know, everyone necessarily is paying the same thing even if you let's say you read a piece of, a a blog post, and and everyone can actually consume it. Doesn't need to necessarily be behind of a paywall. And I actually think that that Internet is going towards direction of a paywall, so we're seeing more and more, different kinds of news outlets actually, putting lot of the, lot of the consumption behind, a a paid, service.\n\nBut I believe that, you know, you can actually monetize and, get support from your audience, by leaving the choice for, the actual, consumers of the content on, whether to pay for the content or not. And it would have to pay. I I think the collect is a way of actually appreciating, you know, that I want, this creator to actually continue, finding new exciting things and and and seeing future new content. So in in some sort of ways when you're collecting something, it's, it it it it's basically funding or, placing, a a bet that's, you know, there's gonna be in the future more exciting content that you wanna, see. And and it also gives more, flexibility for the consumer to think about, like, whether I'm, capable of, paying for this content.\n\nAnd also, like, takes a a bit more different kind of approach where, you know, every single person should pay the same thing. But maybe, you know, I'm in a position to pay today. Some of those might be in in tomorrow as long as you have some sort of pricing mechanism that, you're able to do as a creator, what you, love to do. So so there it it really opens the design space and, we've have been doing some research on on why people collect and and some of these reasons are that they wanna support, they want additional, things or, a third one which is very interesting is that, they wanna be part of a, a community. So if you are collecting someone a a provider's, let's say, content, you know, you're you're part of that community so that the the provider recognizes that.\n\nAnd, that can be used in different ways, in in in the future. So it can be purely fully without, utility, but it it it definitely has that kind of value aspect there.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. I think that it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's interesting because, I mean, on one side, you know, one of the, I guess, criticisms about the creator economy or, like, artists putting their their content online and what that's what that's what has, like, been caused out of it is, like, especially if you look at music, is kind of like the downward spiral of, like, how, or the the cheapening of art or, like, cheapening of of content. And I think that's opening up that design. Like, right now, that is the design that we are kind of, like, forced into. It's sort of like this, race to the bottom, I think a bit, with a lot of these platforms and how they work and And\n\nSpeaker 1: with AI.\n\nSpeaker 0: How they extract. And now with the AI, who knows how that's going to, fuck things up. The opening of that design space, I think, allows for, just like new types of expression that people may be more interested in in being a part of that don't necessarily commodify the art or the content. And so one of the things that I wanted to get to is that, you know, like, people think of now, you hear a lot, like social media platforms consider users as the product, or at least a big part of the product in which they sell these advertising packages that are sold based on your posting history and based on, you know, like which market category you fit in. They want you to they sell probably higher prices for more expensive users or wealthier users.\n\nBut this sort of came about because, you know, some will say that no one wanted to pay for anything over the Internet. Like that was like people were afraid to put in their credit cards. They didn't want to, do, like, micro payments or things like that. And it's only pretty recent that that and I think Patreon, actually, I would argue that's a separate discussion. That's kind of, like, opened up that door a little bit.\n\nBut so everyone sort of like expected or wanted everything for free. But now with, Web three, crypto, whatever you want to call it, it introduces the potential for new revenue models or new, ways of of of making money. So, like, knowing that, big tech social media is sort of in the camp of, everything is free, but we're selling you and that's our revenue model. Like, what is the revenue model for Lens or or even, like, what are some alternative types of, revenue models for, this type of Web three point zero social media?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And I I think it's actually quite interesting how people think about getting things free online because, I I also think it it it it definitely boils down to in one perspective to the point that, you know, people were scared to put the credit card online. You know, whenever you were purchasing anything, you went to look at the reviews, you know, whether this is actually a a, credible, online, you know, ecommerce shop, for example. But there's also another issue related to that is that, you know, there wasn't, for quite a while, ways of of paying online. So, you know, PayPal changed that quite significantly.\n\nStripe Stripe made it even easier. But at the same time, the the amount of, kind of, like, a free content expanded online. And I I think it's a good it's it's really a good thing as well. So, like, the the way I see it is that what, Web one did, and me who you know, I grew up over the Internet. I used to play a lot of, you know, video games and and, the more bandwidth I got, like, the more the more more games I played.\n\nBut at the same time, you know, I was spending a lot of time on actually, learning online. So if I compare the amounts of spending, online learning things versus, spending time, you know, growing up in school. Definitely, I spend more time learning, over the Internet. And what I realized is that, this access to to free content is, like, very democratizing. So, you can get any information, whatever you want to learn.\n\nThat does it doesn't exist in your local library, especially coming from a small country, from the Nordics. You don't have, you know, the same access to information or same access to people. And that creates a bit of inequality. Right? And I think Internet did it pretty well of actually establishing first as, very scale, free information, free access, content, and and we had this amazing open source movement.\n\nAnd, you know, that's one of the reasons why, 99.9 something percent of of most of the servers are running open source software. Linux, for example, and Linux Doorbell is another, example from from another, Finnish person, building open source. That's right. Yeah. But what I what I see fascinating is that the the WebOne, you know, created this kind of like a democratization opportunity that now, you know, everyone can have access to the base information, and and kind of, like, left, like, left on the side, like, how we we're gonna monetize.\n\nAnd it actually feels very, hard to see these days when you're looking at the Wikipedia page, you know, and you have this, donation popping up with, like, you know, can you, donate two pounds or $2, for, keeping Biggie Betty running, which is like like in one perspective kind of like, it's one of the most important, like, online libraries and source of informations for every single person in the planet. So, and with web two, we we created more of like platforms where, we put people together and very easy create them easy tools, to create that content. So we don't need any more, you know, authorities or university pages or a certificate. But, like, anyone can actually create content that is, valuable. There's insights.\n\nThere's knowledge. There's resource resources. And then pretty much like the the the idea where how we can actually monetize, you know, everything derived to ads because, you know, you have this, history of of not monetizing. And and, you know, that's why what social media platforms are interested when they are, you know, building their product is that how often they can get you back, how much time you spend. And the more time you spend on the platforms, and, the more you engage, the more they can actually sell ads, but also the more they can actually charge for those ads.\n\nSo it's it's very ads driven, mechanism. But now, like, if you look into, the the the reality where we are from technical standpoints, you can actually pretty much monetize, lot of the content. And that's why I'm I'm thinking why Internet some part of the the content, especially kind of like a premium content, is moving behind a paywall, in in in in more of, like, a news site. When when you want to read some, interesting article on on a online newspaper, you know, you you hit very quickly the the the the request to sign up and and and subscribe. But I think what's, valuable is that, instead of actually just hiding the content, how do we can actually keep the content democratic.\n\nSo how we can allow anyone the access to to see at least most of the, relevant base information that that people need and insights to keep them up to date. And at the same time, how we can support the creators. And by support, I don't really mean that, you know, we want to ensure that the creators get, enough funds to, you know, write a next story or pay their bills, but actually how they can actually build businesses, that could even scale on on this new model of of of Webtree. That's why I think, like, the, NFTs are, very exciting way to monetize user generated content where we keep the information, democratically accessible. But at the same time, we can create models where and and design where where actually there's subscribers that are willing to come, and and pay.\n\nAnd I think we're suffering in the Internet and also, in in Webtree a bit about this idea of, we shouldn't be, monetizing and everything should be open source. But I think, monetization and incentives, are a good way of actually creating a a bit more democratic culture, and and steer people towards direction where, we just build more, better things. So it's it's something that we as a space we have to overcome, but also the blockchain itself provides, fascinating infrastructure, to monetize because the whole narrative of, the blockchain started from, for example, from Bitcoin, evolved into more programmable monetary Ethereum, and and now, beyond financial applications into, let's say, Web three social, and then having, you know, DAOs, these decentralized organizations with treasuries and capital allocations. So, I think we kind of, like, are approaching now the the the challenges that, you know, what if the the financial layer, is is baked in, you know, and and there's different kinds of incentives to ensure that we are able to produce and build things, in a way where it it it it still serves a public good general purpose, and creators can actually make a living and build businesses, around the the the infrastructure.\n\nSpeaker 0: So then how does, at the moment as it works, does Lens, for example, like, take take a cut of sell of sales of, like, an NFT of something that's collected? Or how does, like, I how does Lens sustain itself, like, compared to yeah. Like, we know how so how, like, Facebook sustains itself. How does how does Lens sustain itself? Or what is is is there a plan for, trying to do that?\n\nSpeaker 1: In terms of monetization on the on the protocol level, so there is built in monetization mechanisms for the protocol. So so it can take a fee out of, all the clicks or, any other kind of revenue that could be, for example, users paying to follow, a particular user, for, mirroring fees. So mirroring is similar to sharing or pre tweeting and being able to capture those fees. So down the line, that is something that can be activated. We we, as a team, we hope that that happens more of when the protocol gets more decentralized.\n\nIt's it's further built down the line. So we are at version one now, and it's live on on on Polygon. But down the line, but we expect that, many of these monetization decisions on a protocol level happen, through, the community. And one, big difference about, Lens is that, you might see a content created, let's say, one of the applications built on top. So let's say, Leinster, which is an open source client that, you know, anyone can fork and and, build their own version.\n\nSo so for example, the content might be created in Lanser but collected in another application. So let's say, butterfly or orb. These are the two example, applications or or favor, and they might be collected there in this in the another application or mirrored and and somewhere else collected. So, all these applications, they can actually share, the fees that they're collecting with the protocol itself between all these applications, between users. So you have these different kinds of layers of monetization, but the, the key difference here is that, you know, it's it's very much, symbiotic.\n\nSo, they're growing together and sharing fees, which is kind of unheard of. One, let's say, bigger social media platform sharing, directly with another one based on the content that is, created. So they serve to each other, content creation, that liquidity. They serve to each other distribution experiences, onboarding more users, and it's kind of like a building towards, the same, social drafts that that pulls pulls them, together. And in itself, the protocol is very modularized.\n\nSo, obviously, it's mainly based on smart contracts. So there's, modules that you can create that might have additional functionality. So recently, we created, a module that allows also token gated content. So, you pay a fee, and and this enables, to unlock the content and see what's, what was hidden, as a user. If you want that kind of like a typical, Internet paywall, experience as well.\n\nSo it's end of the day, Lens protocol is is just a, different kinds of, Web three social primitives that can be applied to different kinds of use cases. So you might select just, oh, I want to have, you know, the collects for for the content. I wanna keep profiles also on chain, but I might have I want I might want to keep the followings, in a in a cloud because I wanna create a a bit more private, social network. So I'm I'm gonna use, the best ingredients. So I'm I'm I'm I'm as application builder or integrator, I'm choosing what parts I wanna use on chain and what parts I wanna use, on on chain, for my use case.\n\nAnd and based on your use case, you decide the monetization, but there's this kind of like a waterfall effect that's, you know, a waterfall or a river. It it basically gives, and it empowers every single, farm, city, country that that the that the river actually, floats over, which is quite interesting.\n\nSpeaker 0: So, yeah, if I could, summarize that maybe. Like, you have the so you have the social graph, which is being recorded on chain Yeah. Which is the, kinda, like, the back end of the social media platform that you may want to build. Other, because it's on chain and it's this shared database, Distributed Ledger, any one else is able to create a front end on top of that. And the protocol itself, I guess, is malleable enough for different types of content.\n\nIt's like I've tried out Lenster and I've tried out LensTube for for the most part, and I saw that, like, when I if I, like, shared or mirrored a video, it showed up on my Lenster, which is, like, the Twitter like Yeah. Social media. So I was and, you know, when you go through, like, the lens protocol sort of home page, you can see that there are many different types of, front ends, different front ends that are available that you can use use the same social graph that is associated with your, Ethereum wallet. So it's it's, the incentives are changed, quite a bit there.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. And it's kind of fascinating because, those two examples, Lancer and Lens Tube, they're just two example applications that were built to, you know, LensTree was built by one developer who built it during a hackathon, a two week hackathon, and just kind of like, as a community contributor. And LensDB is also built by one, developer. So it actually shows, like, how little, energy or, let's say, like, input it requires to build a functional, social media application. I'm personally more excited about all the new things you can actually build and as make it more easier.\n\nYou could build very quickly a social media experience. Let's say that's something that is very new, to to to your space, or or or or or globally, and you can actually try more. So you can try to build new things. And if they don't work, you can build a new thing and you don't spend, like, couple of years trying to build an audience when you can actually just build an application. And because it's powered by Lens, you get the 100 or so thousand Web three native users.\n\nI actually think even, we'll get more integrations that, integrations into existing Web three applications. So I could see, for example, Lens being, valuable, as a social layer across the whole Web three ecosystem. So you will see you will see basic integrations in, beef applications or or DAO tools where, you can actually use the native, primitives, like, you know, the the commenting, logging with your, profile, sharing the content, or let's say governance proposals across the, lens protocol and the other, features there. Because whenever I ask, the the actual creators so there's sort of news creators, there's also a few podcasters, and and and writers. And I I usually ask, like, what what brings them back to to Lens?\n\nAnd and in many cases is from what I hear from these Webtree native, creators is that, it's a place for Webtree audiences, which is fascinating because, what it means is that if you are a new creator, and you are excited about the Webtree primitives, like the, collectibles, or, you know, owning your, online presence or or just you might be interested just in DeFi or some other topic in the space. That's the right audience to to share content and and and and talk to because they are familiar of of, you know, what our collects, for example, and and they might have, also, they have already a track record of collecting. And it ties everyone together from the same concept, but, it doesn't restrict, for example, for me, starting to post, food pictures across the enhanced protocol and communicate and get engaged with other people who are posting food pictures, and and then kind of, like, grow the social graph with other types of, interests. So it's fascinating to see that the it it ties Webtree people together, but also acts as a distribution channel, to create an audience that is, Webtree native.\n\nSpeaker 0: Right. And also just not, I guess, tied to a single front end application that you may happen to be using, which I think, is interesting. And as well, to what you said kind of earlier, holding off on it sounds like you guys are holding off on sort of, like, the monetization or revenue model for Lens. There's a possibility there that perhaps for later, but it opens the door, not that I'm insinuating what exactly you guys are going to do, but it opens the door or possibility for a kind of collectively owned or governed, social graph protocol. So you're like, so there is the possibility, like, of, you know, there was a few years ago, maybe I think, I can't remember how long now, but people had been, wanting to turn Twitter into a cooperative, for example Yeah.\n\nAs, like, kind of a joke because because they they were, I think their Twitter was, like, going to be sold or something like that and people were like, alright, let's, you know, like, maybe we can pool some money together and we can turn Twitter into a cooperative. But of course, like, it's just, like, given the legal sort of financial, and legal system, like, it's just, like, a huge task to undertake that just, like, is not really possible under US law and to do it that's, like, across, like, national borders, like, it it it's it's not possible. But, having one built on smart contracts, on a blockchain, opens up the design space a bit more to where maybe that that is a possibility where you can have a social media platform or really it's the social graph is, like, ownable, by the users who who actually use it, which I think is, pretty interesting.\n\nSpeaker 1: And I I think it's very it's it's very valuable for creators, especially because, when when you build an audience, you really wanna have the connections. You really wanna have a voice, and and the distribution. It might be less, for example, valuable for, a user that is just, like, using social media to, maybe just, showcase. Yeah. Or even like I mean, I do I I do that quite a lot, but, like, I I mean, like, for example, that's, if if you don't really care about your, you know, social graph, then, you know, you could just keep your followers in in a, more traditional, database or some sort of, federated model.\n\nSo, like, like, I I guess, like, if it must master them, for example, one of the issues is that, you know, when, someone quits, hosting a server, you know, that the data availability is lost. So for example, that's the content and, in most cases, also the, the identity part. And I I know that some of the projects like, Twitter's, Blue Sky is trying to solve, a bit the portability challenge that, also the the the federated networks have. But, like, with the blockchain based guarantees, you can actually have the data data availability, and also execution. So data validity means that, you know, you have those followers and that's your audience.\n\nAnd then the execution that comes from the blockchain is if you want to apply that too with Lens protocol, it means, for example, that maybe only people that follow me, or collect one of my items can actually, comment or whoever has collected previously my content can, be the first person to to comment whatever I I might have or, decrypt something that is, you know, token gated. So you can create this kind of like a, verified jewels, based on, activity. And I I find this very fascinating because, on chain data and blockchain based data, we we kind of, like, are creating it all the time, and we love the idea of, like, you know, transparent markets and understanding, like, what's happening in, decentralized finance, and understanding, let's say, like, colorizations of different, protocols. But at the same time, we're creating this kind of like a, on chain Webtree, economic footprint, and each of us has their own Webtree footprint. And based on that, it actually helps to create verified data points that could be used in, for example, in credit in the future.\n\nVery typical problem is that when you move from one country to another, you you can't really passport your credit history, for example. But something that's, on chain, verified, depending on how much verification you need and and what kind of data, that's that's basically cross border and that could be used in various different use cases. And we're just so early that's, we don't have those, use cases yet. And and then on top of that, base layer, you can build different kinds of things, like, for example, privacy, private networks, and and apply anything that specifically is is needed without actually then creating a situation where the users need to give up of their, you know, ownership of their, profiles and and their distribution. So I I find, I I find the the blockchain component very valuable piece of giving guarantees and also, debt modernization part.\n\nAnd and the reason for that is also that, if you think about, like, financial capital, a lot of people have, let's say, financial wealth. But what every single person in the planet has is the social capital. So, you know, the connections you create, the network you have, the distribution, and not being able to actually have ownership over that is is very, hard challenge at this point. And I think, that can that's gonna be one of the features of Lens that will be appreciated, over the long run because, creator it it it gives the ownership, but it also changes the dynamic. So, the creators and the users, they have more actually power, and pool of of of how these applications and algorithms are built because, not only the computation is done by open data, but at the same time, it opens up the competition.\n\nSo what decentralized finance did to finance is that, it democratizes democratized the the access to to build next generation financial, applications. And with, Lens and Web three social, what happens also is that anyone can actually come and build better algorithms. And as a user, you have more choice. So if we go back to the the previous discussion where we're thinking about the monetization models, and how the algorithms will work, in in web two space, they have to be tuned into, profitability. They have to basically be tuned into, getting you to come more often into the application.\n\nAnd and and then that allows those platforms to actually charge more for, the ads, which is kind of a, crazy idea because probably the most of the exciting, social media use cases might be coming from applications where you might just open them, you know, once a week to do something, like, very, very valuable, but less frequently. And if we are able to monetize that and provide that as a kind of, like, a business that could be built on top of these open protocols, I think we're in in a quite good path.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. So so maybe some of my my closing thoughts since I know, we're at the top of the hour. But, yeah. For me, I see, like, blockchains are already a social graph. Mhmm.\n\nIt's just that they're sort of, for the most part, it's kind of, tracking one type of social interaction, which are usually based on finance, usually based on money or something\n\nSpeaker 1: like that. Transactions, yeah.\n\nSpeaker 0: But, but it's still, like, it's been helpful for me at least, like, for just for an example, I have, like, airdrops, you know, bread tokens from the crowd seeking application that we built on top of AAVE. I got airdrops, like, the first little bits to people who have bought NFTs of, like, the mirror blog posts that we posted before. Yeah. I would not have known I would not have been able to do that, like, without a blockchain. Like, that's just it would not be possible.\n\nThat was a way to, like I was not planning to do that, but afterwards I was like, maybe that would be, like, a good idea because all that is tracked. Like, all that is is known, so I can reward the people who helped out afterward after the fact, with a with a little bit of, tokens. And then the other part I wanted to, mention I think was interesting is that, like, the algorithm in which you see information, that you see in your feed, is a front end capability. Like that's that's, which means that each application can show information based on different needs. So you can go to the maybe you'll have a choice between, the application that is, meant to give you, tweets that make you angry versus another one that gives you tweets, that make you happy or whatever.\n\nYou know, like, that that optimizes for different types of interaction and while still using the same, back end and and social graph. So I think this is like this this, idea of, like, creating more competition in the in the front end of social media space.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Exactly. And the the the the actual the very front end, you know, it it can be really anything. It can be a front end that is actually, living and existing in IPFS or one of these data availability layers, or you can work exactly like, a normal, Internet application in terms of experiences and and whatnot. So typically, when when you go one of these applications, whether it's like Lancer or, you know, Butterfly Paper, like, and and bunch of other ones that has been built.\n\nThey they also have very optimistic way of building. So when you, create a post or you comment, that is reflected to you right away. So you will you it it will feel to you as it's a normal ancient application and the blockchain logic is happening, in in the background, creating a transaction and, and and and and and and so forth. So a lot of the things are actually abstracted away from the users, and this was one of the core, decisions that we made in the very early that, you know, if we want to build for, you know, adoption and users that are less technical and we wanna want more more people into the space, we really need to think about, like, how we get into the same level as all these applications, but we will have, the guarantees that something like a blockchain data availability, or any other other decent use technology actually, provides. And that was, like, a very important, decision from us, and also learning because it wasn't easy to achieve and educate all the users that, no.\n\nYou actually, you know, you press you you press this button, and you don't need to pay gas. You don't need to sign for transactions. You know, everything just happens in the background. Like, it it really feels and educating also all the, integrators and and people who are building, on top of the lens protocol. So that's that's kind of that was kind of, like, a, decision that we, made.\n\nBut end of the day, it's a set of primitives that were whatever is your use case for some applications, they they just want to have the ability to sign in with your, lens profile and and maybe show things. And I really like what you said about, the fact that the whole blockchain is a social graph and and full of interactions because that's the way I see it. And we use part of that, on chain data to actually onboard, a lot of the early adopters. So the protocol is still in beta. So there's, roughly 100, 14,000, users that has been, that has meant minted a Lens profile.\n\nAnd the way we actually have been onboarding is that we we've been looking to looking into the, on chain data and and seeing, like, here's a group of people who have been using, DAOs or donated to Gitcoin or, deposited into the other protocol or, collected, a mirror post. Maybe they might have a interest in actually trying out, the Lens ecosystem and white listed those addresses. And and and based on that WebTree footprint, we're able to kind of, like, see the early, community. And and, obviously, then all the events that we had, in in in Ethereum hackathons and and and being able to, create meetups. We recently had a meetup in, San Francisco, for for Lens, and and we, white listed a lot of, meetup participants.\n\nSo it's an interesting kind of, like, a way how you can use on chain data, that way. And at the same time, I see Lens protocol being kind of like a organized way of creating distribution, to distribute content, and connect with peers. And so so that's those are the kind of, like, a primitives that that make makes Lens social, and and valuable across the whole Webtree space as a as a social graph.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nice. Yeah. I'm, I mean, I'm I'm sympathetic to, to the efforts, because yeah. I mean, I think I think by now everybody realizes we need some sort of alternative to social media. Just like, I think there's just so much there's so much inertia with people being on social on certain social media platforms.\n\nBut, yeah, I'm really hoping that within my lifetime, at the very least, we'll see people begin to transition away from away from these big tech platforms and begin to think about the, the positive benefits to using something like a protocol instead of a platform.\n\nSpeaker 1: And I and I and I think also that's, because we have seen a lot of movements recently. So we've seen, people going from Twitter to Mastodon and and, you know, realizing, oh, the experience wasn't the same or maybe the interactions weren't went the same that that they had in in, let's say, in Twitter or other social media platforms. So, like, I what I learned from, for example, from, Aave previously and, going forward is that, like, for adoption, we we simply just need to build a better, you know, faster and stronger, software or applications or, communities. So I I I think the fact that something is decentralized or it's, like, having that, ideological perspective necessarily don't bring the users. So, what I like to do is I I like to bake in those kind of, like, user guarantees, into, into the protocol, and ensure that, like, everything that we we kind of, like, build.\n\nI mean, like like, our our vision at at Avaya is that we want to build a people powered Internet that benefits all. And the way I'm trying to think about this vision is that we bake into the, protocol these guarantees that that are good for the users and bring them close to the decision making. But then when it goes to actually adoption, and getting users, we we have to build just better applications and experiences that are more exciting. And I I think that's that's the kind of, like, aware we've been able we've been able to be, somewhat successful in the past, and I think has the right ingredients to get more, folks into the space. And then as they become users and and they are switching from one application to another as as you put your example between LensTub and Linster, they realize that, oh, actually, you know, I don't need to worry about giving up my, network to a platform because I actually have another choice and that comes as\n\nSpeaker 0: a\n\nSpeaker 1: realization. I think that's where we wanna be, in the future.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nice. Yeah. Thanks so much for, coming on and talking about Lens protocol. Maybe just to end it off, would you like to share, with people where they can keep up with the sort of latest updates on Lens, and perhaps maybe, how could people potentially join, the white list?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. A lot of content I've share about Lens, and and we message, through the the actual Lens protocol. So one of the applications, Lensr, or Lens Tube, Butterfly Favor and all there there's I calculate there's roughly 200 different kinds of apps being built, and and some are actual, you know, businesses and some are more of hacking them projects, experimentations. And if you don't have a lens profile yet, you can DM me on Twitter, and I can give you a, profile so you can test the the the beta, as long as you give me some feedback. And that's all all from my side.\n\nSpeaker 0: I see. You're handling all that manually.\n\nSpeaker 1: I do a lot of manually. So I, we do, you know, we we list participants based on some meetup events and Web three social. I I would say, like, Web three data, like, the on chain data. But I really like also the manual listing and and just to give feedback and and how we can, build better social.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nice. There you go. Go DM Stani on, on Twitter, and you can get on Lens as well.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thank you.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi, everyone.", "start": 9.12, "end": 9.76 }, { "text": "You are listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast.", "start": 9.76, "end": 12.42 }, { "text": "And for today's interview, I have Stani Kulechov.", "start": 12.799999, "end": 16.085 }, { "text": "He is the founder of AAVE, which is a DeFi lending protocol, and as well, LENS protocol, which is a new type of social media, which is meant to take advantage of the affordances of blockchains, of Web3 technology, to sort of rethink how we structure different social media platforms.", "start": 16.465, "end": 37.2 }, { "text": "But before we get into that, I think it would be great, Stani, if you can maybe, you can give like a little introduction, but also, if you could explain AAVE to people, since that's where I think like, that's how you became famous, I guess, was through AAVE.", "start": 38.22, "end": 52.325 } ], "start": 9.12, "end": 52.325, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it's also the protocol that the or the DeFi application that the bread chain crowd sticking application, which is what, I've built with my, with my, my fun little side project called bread chain.", "start": 52.945, "end": 65.08 } ], "start": 52.945, "end": 65.08, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 65.08, "end": 65.48 }, { "text": "And so", "start": 65.48, "end": 65.72 } ], "start": 65.08, "end": 65.72, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I thought it'd be really nice if you can maybe explain what that is and, yeah, what is unique about it.", "start": 65.72, "end": 72.380005 } ], "start": 65.72, "end": 72.380005, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 72.785, "end": 72.945 }, { "text": "Definitely.", "start": 72.945, "end": 73.445 }, { "text": "And and and thanks for, using the the other protocol.", "start": 73.585, "end": 77.025 }, { "text": "So, what Aave is is is, you know, as a as a user, you can supply cryptographic assets, into the other protocol, and receive yield, on those, assets.", "start": 77.025, "end": 89.36 }, { "text": "And at the same time, you can use those assets as a collateral, to borrow other kind of assets.", "start": 89.58, "end": 94.7 } ], "start": 72.785, "end": 94.7, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So typical example is that you might have, some ETH, sitting on your wallet, that you don't wanna spend, because you are, delivering the, Ethereum ecosystem, but you would like to see that balance grow.", "start": 94.7, "end": 110.674995 }, { "text": "So what you do is that you supply these assets into the protocol, but at the same time, you want to use, a bit of that, net for capital that you have, stuck in in it.", "start": 110.674995, "end": 124.29 }, { "text": "So what you could do is you could borrow, stablecoins, from the other protocol, without any intermediaries.", "start": 124.35, "end": 131.91501 }, { "text": "So you are interacting directly with the, smart contract infrastructure, the protocol itself, and finance, some sort of a goal.", "start": 131.975, "end": 139.735 }, { "text": "That could be, you know, that could be tuition, that could be mortgage, you know, a car or, you know, any kind of finance goal you you might have in, mind.", "start": 139.735, "end": 149.48001 } ], "start": 94.7, "end": 149.48001, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And as a protocol, it means that, it's just a set of infrastructure that has been built, and deployed, in multiple different, EVM based, blockchains, Ethereum, Polygon, Avalanche, and so called layer twos, Optimism and and Arbitrium.", "start": 150.02, "end": 170.125 }, { "text": "So, effectively, because it's an infrastructure, anyone can can actually, use that infrastructure.", "start": 170.75, "end": 177.97 }, { "text": "So we call it as, a public good.", "start": 178.03, "end": 181.25 }, { "text": "And I think for me, personally, the fascinating part is that, as our team has built the protocol, we don't really control it.", "start": 181.39, "end": 189.385 }, { "text": "So, there's actually formal governance, over the other protocol, meaning that the token holders come together over the blockchain and actually make decisions on how the Aave protocol has is gonna be, improved in the future or changing different kinds of, risk parameters, interest rate strategies.", "start": 189.385, "end": 210.47 } ], "start": 150.02, "end": 210.47, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and the team itself doesn't have any ability to change what is out there, which is kind of a a cold thing for us.", "start": 212.925, "end": 222.865 } ], "start": 212.925, "end": 222.865, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 223.16501, "end": 223.485 }, { "text": "So, like, the way that, to kind of maybe to simplify it for some people who may be listening, you in order to use AAVE, you would provide collaterals.", "start": 223.485, "end": 235.31999 }, { "text": "You would give, you know, perhaps, it could be Ether, it could be DAI, it could be any of these type of crypto tokens that are on an EVM chain.", "start": 235.37999, "end": 244.215 }, { "text": "You can then borrow assets of a different token that is of less value than what you've given collateral, so it's always over collateralized.", "start": 244.515, "end": 253.25499 }, { "text": "And you can use that for various reasons why you would do that as for trading or as for, you know, whatever it is that you want want to accomplish.", "start": 254.275, "end": 262.16 } ], "start": 223.16501, "end": 262.16, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 262.30002, "end": 262.7 }, { "text": "So we use that.", "start": 262.86002, "end": 263.84 }, { "text": "Good.", "start": 264.14, "end": 264.62 } ], "start": 262.30002, "end": 264.62, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 264.62, "end": 264.86002 }, { "text": "I just say that's, I would say roughly 70% of the protocol, users are simply supplying, assets to earn.", "start": 264.86002, "end": 274.795 }, { "text": "So they're they're not actually borrowing, anything out of the, protocol itself.", "start": 274.795, "end": 280.495 } ], "start": 264.62, "end": 280.495, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 281.035, "end": 281.435 }, { "text": "Most people are are are lending than they are borrowing.", "start": 281.435, "end": 284.255 } ], "start": 281.035, "end": 284.255, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 284.53, "end": 284.77 }, { "text": "Exactly.", "start": 284.77, "end": 285.27 } ], "start": 284.53, "end": 285.27, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 286.05, "end": 286.53 }, { "text": "And that's basically what we use it for, with Breadchain as well.", "start": 286.53, "end": 289.72998 }, { "text": "We just lend out DAI so that we can earn a yield off of that DAI to help fund the cooperative and we create sort of a wrapped token for that that people can use within the network.", "start": 289.72998, "end": 300.22998 }, { "text": "But so since the success of AAVE over the past few years, you've kind of transitioned now into social media.", "start": 302.23502, "end": 311.195 }, { "text": "You've gone from DeFi to social media using the same type of tools that you've built AAVE with.", "start": 311.195, "end": 315.855 } ], "start": 286.05, "end": 315.855, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But maybe before we get into what Lens protocol is and how it works and how it's different, I think it would be interesting to know, I guess for you, what are the what is the problem with social media today as you see it and which kind of lens is meant to, to solve for?", "start": 317.00998, "end": 334.725 } ], "start": 317.00998, "end": 334.725, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 335.825, "end": 336.065 }, { "text": "I mean, I I see different layers of, challenges in in the current, social media landscape.", "start": 336.065, "end": 342.645 }, { "text": "I like to always kind of, like, approach, the social media challenge from a perspective where, seeing social media as as a place of, having digital, town squares.", "start": 343.185, "end": 356.72998 }, { "text": "So for example, if you go back in history, there's been always some sort of a venue or a forum where people come together and and they make different kinds of, either decisions or they share news, or, you know, they they get informed and educate themselves.", "start": 357.03, "end": 375.50998 }, { "text": "So, that has been happening in the ancient Greek times and and and and even way longer, in history.", "start": 376.05, "end": 385.89502 } ], "start": 335.825, "end": 385.89502, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's the kind of, like, a people coming together, component.", "start": 387.315, "end": 390.775 }, { "text": "And the second thing is that we've, we usually also form lot of relationships online, and and form lot of social capital.", "start": 390.83502, "end": 399.075 }, { "text": "So it's very, normal and human behavior to to actually create relationships.", "start": 399.075, "end": 405.19998 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 405.34, "end": 405.82 }, { "text": "You, might create, friendships in in whatever you are going school, for example, your workplace, with your neighbors and and and whatnot.", "start": 405.82, "end": 415.805 } ], "start": 387.315, "end": 415.805, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But what is fascinating is that now, especially with the past decades, more and more that creation of social capital actually happens, over online.", "start": 416.985, "end": 426.845 }, { "text": "So, for example, that's if if you look at today, we have roughly five, billion people, over over the Internet and almost equal amount of, social media users, at at this point.", "start": 427.22498, "end": 442.28 }, { "text": "But, effectively, what we see today is that many of the users are creating that social capital or creating content in a platforms where they really don't have, a specific ownership.", "start": 442.72498, "end": 454.82498 }, { "text": "So if that platform, for example, goes, down or disappears, what basically happened with Myspace, you know, they, they lost their data, while back ago.", "start": 454.88498, "end": 466.16998 }, { "text": "You really don't have the ownership of those connections you make.", "start": 467.43, "end": 470.65 } ], "start": 416.985, "end": 470.65, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, actually, if you think about the, real, like, use cases, you know, when you make connections, I would say, like, off chain, what happens is that, you know, you form those relations and and they exist.", "start": 470.79498, "end": 484.975 }, { "text": "But in the global, Internet economy and, our presence, you know, it's it's very, hard to create, audiences and own.", "start": 485.74, "end": 495.04 }, { "text": "And with Lens, our goal is to approach the challenge from the perspective of being able to create a profile that you own, and it's secured by the blockchain and also being able to create an audience.", "start": 495.34, "end": 509.345 }, { "text": "So, we create different kinds of relationships on online, and and what is happening is that, we create them inside of a platform.", "start": 509.345, "end": 518.63995 }, { "text": "So we really don't have the ownership, for that audience.", "start": 518.63995, "end": 522.39996 } ], "start": 470.79498, "end": 522.39996, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, for example, that's, if if if I want to actually go into another venue, another, digital town square, I can't actually take my audience, with me into this new, venue.", "start": 522.39996, "end": 538.02496 }, { "text": "And and that's the kind of, like, a challenge where, you know, we don't really have the ownership of the connections and online presence we're making today, online.", "start": 538.165, "end": 547.2 }, { "text": "And blockchain is interesting way to solve this challenge because in the first place, what Bitcoin was trying to do is to actually solve the idea of being able to have ownership over your, monetary value and and being able to transact, peer to peer without intermediaries.", "start": 547.74, "end": 568.02496 }, { "text": "And with Ethereum and EVM, we we took one step forward and made actually that, that finance programmable.", "start": 569.52496, "end": 579.81 }, { "text": "And and with Lens protocol and and the, Web three social, the idea is to extend it further that if you can actually own, your own, wealth and your own, money, you you should be able to also own your, identity and and your online presence, and change the kind of dynamics that we have today on online where platforms are the ones that, decide upon different kinds of policies and and how users, see content, or how the monetization works today.", "start": 580.26996, "end": 615.39 } ], "start": 522.39996, "end": 615.39, "num_words": 206.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 615.69, "end": 616.19 }, { "text": "I mean, you're talking to, someone who, is unfortunately a online content creator.", "start": 616.33, "end": 622.675 }, { "text": "So I definitely understand, like, where that's like, the the idea of being able to port your audience to someplace else, like, I have sympathies for because I have thought about, like, you know, at any moment, what if, you know, Elon Musk or whoever is that, the CEO of Patreon, I don't know, they don't like me anymore.", "start": 623.375, "end": 643.72 }, { "text": "Like, I don't have very many options, which is why, I have been kind of, like, exploring, for example, like NFTs as a way for people to subscribe as an alternative.", "start": 643.72, "end": 654.385 }, { "text": "Because there is there is this risk, that I think, what my Matt Dreherst has called platform risk Yep.", "start": 656.20496, "end": 662.28 } ], "start": 615.69, "end": 662.28, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That a lot of artists and creators have is that at any moment, you know, you don't know whenever a platform may disappear.", "start": 662.44, "end": 669.66003 }, { "text": "In which case, you as an individual user who has zero, I guess, ownership or real stake into a platform, like, you have no you have no recourse for what happens.", "start": 669.96, "end": 680.75494 }, { "text": "And, you're not, like, you're you're not the highest priority, for the platform.", "start": 680.75494, "end": 686.27496 }, { "text": "It's whoever their their shareholders are.", "start": 686.27496, "end": 688.535 } ], "start": 662.44, "end": 688.535, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and typically when you look at these platforms, especially when they're related to, for example, the not the entertainment part of the, online social media, but actually to the part of act to on the part of creating news, for example, and sharing opinions, that's where, a little of the the the actual, I would say kind of, like, interactions becomes, more political.", "start": 688.67004, "end": 714.215 }, { "text": "And that's part, it's it's very kind of, like, hard to create a very equal, accessible and and fair environment online, from the perspective when the users don't really have a choice, to select their, platforms.", "start": 715.075, "end": 734.775 }, { "text": "And I I think what's radically gonna be different in the future, especially with with Webtree, is that, you know, you can actually start having that choice.", "start": 735.155, "end": 745.315 }, { "text": "So you have the flexibility to go from one, application, to another, change your experience, but also maybe subscribe into a different kind of a content moderation policy that resonates your values more without actually losing your, distribution.", "start": 745.315, "end": 765.855 }, { "text": "And I think that's where the value is for for, for users.", "start": 765.995, "end": 770.65497 } ], "start": 688.67004, "end": 770.65497, "num_words": 177.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And when we create that flexibility, and opportunity, what happens also is that these platforms and applications, they really need to, think about then, well, how we actually can compete in this environment where the users can now actually move very easily from one place to another, and, they retain ownership of their, audience.", "start": 771.115, "end": 793.975 }, { "text": "And I think that's where where we're gonna have a, like, a very big moment of realization that, you know, it's it's actually people own their voice.", "start": 795.235, "end": 805.33997 }, { "text": "It belongs to them, but we need to find the experiences that actually, give them reach, for their audiences.", "start": 805.63995, "end": 813.1 } ], "start": 771.115, "end": 813.1, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 814.065, "end": 814.565 }, { "text": "I think so.", "start": 814.78503, "end": 815.385 }, { "text": "A lot of the things that you're mentioning now, I think you're you're alluding to, some of the stuff that Lens protocol is meant to, is meant to solve.", "start": 815.385, "end": 822.645 }, { "text": "So maybe if you could, from a high level, like, how does Lens protocol works?", "start": 823.10504, "end": 828.22504 }, { "text": "And I think, yeah, how how if you could add to that as well, like, how does a protocol differ from a platform like Twitter, like Facebook, or whatever else?", "start": 828.22504, "end": 840.48 } ], "start": 814.065, "end": 840.48, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 841.1, "end": 841.57996 }, { "text": "Similar to Aave, so Lens protocol, most of the infrastructure is, deployed, into the blockchain.", "start": 842.06, "end": 850.525 }, { "text": "So, the reason we use blockchain is because it's a good way of giving different kinds of guarantees, for the users.", "start": 850.585, "end": 858.585 }, { "text": "So where, the other protocol gives you the guarantees of, certain type of, yield, for example, based on verified interest rate formula, certain type of execution, Lens protocol provides you the guarantee of ownership of your, profile, your online presence.", "start": 858.585, "end": 878.005 }, { "text": "And that ownership is also tokenized, as an NFT.", "start": 879.825, "end": 883.525 } ], "start": 841.1, "end": 883.525, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So you can move it from one wallet to another.", "start": 883.585, "end": 886.46 }, { "text": "We can store it in your cold storage, delegate the ability to post from from another, address.", "start": 887.0, "end": 894.94 }, { "text": "And then, you also have the idea of, social graph.", "start": 895.88, "end": 899.80005 }, { "text": "So the the connections you are, making over online, and that's also secured by the the blockchain as well.", "start": 899.80005, "end": 907.855 }, { "text": "So, it's it's basically a a tool set for, any user to create online presence and and have an ownership, and distribution.", "start": 907.855, "end": 918.45 } ], "start": 883.585, "end": 918.45, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But at the same time, it also creates ability to create, a brand, for example, as well.", "start": 918.99, "end": 924.69 }, { "text": "And one last interesting, like, bigger, benefit of the protocol is that all the content that you create, you can, tokenize them as NFTs.", "start": 924.99, "end": 937.695 }, { "text": "So we're expanding the idea of, art or music being, tokenized NFTs into, any user generated content, being able to tokenize as NFTs.", "start": 937.835, "end": 952.895 }, { "text": "So what it actually means, for users is that if you like some specific content, you can actually go and collect that content.", "start": 953.195, "end": 962.97504 }, { "text": "And the creator can actually set, a a fee.", "start": 963.115, "end": 967.75 } ], "start": 918.99, "end": 967.75, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It can be also free collect, but can also, set a fee.", "start": 967.81, "end": 971.91 }, { "text": "So it's this idea in Webtree where, there isn't necessarily, like, a good explanation of what NFTs or buying or collecting NFTs actually mean.", "start": 972.13, "end": 984.125 }, { "text": "But there's different kinds of, interpretations there.", "start": 984.98505, "end": 988.60504 }, { "text": "And and one of them where I think it's it it it kind of, like, it makes a lot of sense to me is that it's a way to actually consume content.", "start": 988.905, "end": 999.39 }, { "text": "And by consumption means you are able to signal that you actually, are supporting, this piece of content, and you might also want to support the creator as well and and be part of, that community of of, whatever content you're, consuming.", "start": 1000.09, "end": 1020.605 } ], "start": 967.81, "end": 1020.605, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's kind of like a a fascinating concept from, like, the the creator, content creation perspective, like, what an NFT is of a particular content because it might be anything.", "start": 1021.48, "end": 1033.08 }, { "text": "It might not be just a picture of art.", "start": 1033.08, "end": 1037.6349 }, { "text": "It it can actually be just one, you know, one word or, you know, one sentence that that is just, like, culturally relevant or relevant for that audience to to collect.", "start": 1037.6349, "end": 1048.375 } ], "start": 1021.48, "end": 1048.375, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1050.07, "end": 1050.5499 }, { "text": "So, yeah, there's a couple things there.", "start": 1050.5499, "end": 1051.6699 }, { "text": "So, like, to me, Lens sounds like it's basically taking, using the world computer, or however you want to call it, as like the back end for, upkeep of a social graph in which you are making connections with other wallets.", "start": 1051.6699, "end": 1074.1749 }, { "text": "Not necessarily that you are sending money between accounts, but that you're creating connections.", "start": 1074.235, "end": 1081.02 }, { "text": "And this sort of, yeah, like, acknowledgement of a connection between me and someone else can represent, like, a follow or a subscribe, as you would use in a, in a normal platform.", "start": 1082.12, "end": 1098.795 } ], "start": 1050.07, "end": 1098.795, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1098.795, "end": 1098.9551 }, { "text": "And maybe the question also is that, you know, maybe it's also like a question that is are those connections valuable?", "start": 1098.9551, "end": 1108.11 }, { "text": "So for example, like, as a creator, do you see that, for example, you know, if if you follow someone or someone follows you back and you kind of, like, form a online friendship, the like, does it have value?", "start": 1108.1699, "end": 1123.1549 }, { "text": "And then and then how do you quantify?", "start": 1123.1549, "end": 1125.015 }, { "text": "So for example, if you have 500 readers on your newsletter, how do you actually value that, as well?", "start": 1125.5549, "end": 1135.12 } ], "start": 1098.795, "end": 1135.12, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I yeah.", "start": 1138.0599, "end": 1138.78 }, { "text": "For me, I guess, I mean, you're talking to someone who has made a lot of connections thanks to the internet, which I'm grateful for.", "start": 1138.78, "end": 1147.935 }, { "text": "I sometimes, like, like it sometimes feels a bit uncomfortable to think about, like, what how how do I value necessarily a relationship, or, like, how do I value, like, someone else over the Internet?", "start": 1148.555, "end": 1161.64 }, { "text": "But I think what is what is interesting, or what is actually not so different than what we already have today, is, for example, like, things like Patreon, which, you know, I have, which I have a page for, and people can give me money, for Patreon.", "start": 1162.26, "end": 1178.0249 }, { "text": "And they may get bonus episodes that I infrequently, release that I should probably do more of, that I always forget or don't have time for.", "start": 1178.085, "end": 1185.96 } ], "start": 1138.0599, "end": 1185.96, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I think most of those people who do give, I have the impression, are not necessarily doing it because they want to, because I'm give I'm giving them a commodity or something like that because I'm giving them something, but because they're giving they're giving probably because they care about the work that I do and they want to see it continue and, like, me to be able to at least make some money off of it.", "start": 1187.0599, "end": 1209.81 }, { "text": "So, like, this idea when you're talking about NFTs and collection, it reminds me of of basically doing, like, comp like, opening the design space a bit more for what how people can express support for people that they know online, whether that is something that is like a a mutual relationship or if that is like a parasocial one because, you you know, they just like a creator, but they don't know them personally or something like that.", "start": 1211.3301, "end": 1241.91 }, { "text": "That's that's kind of how I see it.", "start": 1243.09, "end": 1244.61 }, { "text": "So you, like, you can offer to collect something for free just because you find it interesting, or you can collect something and provide some money because you are a patron, which is different than, like, a relationship and like like a business relationship.", "start": 1244.61, "end": 1260.615 } ], "start": 1187.0599, "end": 1260.615, "num_words": 209.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, that's it's not I don't think like, people can treat it that way, but I don't think that most people do do it that way.", "start": 1260.615, "end": 1266.81 } ], "start": 1260.615, "end": 1266.81, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I do like the approach for, opening the design space because I think we're, the the way we're thinking about, content and Internet, it it it it it definitely has been standardized in our minds.", "start": 1266.81, "end": 1281.855 }, { "text": "But if you take just, like, few steps, you know, back and think about, like, you know, the same piece of content, you you know, it can be consumed, in in a way where you're paying for the content, or you can read it for free.", "start": 1282.955, "end": 1300.13 }, { "text": "And I I think, you know, when I was very young and and growing up in in in Finland, some of the things that I wanted to consume and read, you know, I went to library.", "start": 1300.1901, "end": 1313.3949 }, { "text": "So, at that point, I I basically went to read different kinds of newspapers that were, fascinating to me.", "start": 1313.455, "end": 1321.235 }, { "text": "Maybe, for example, different kinds of financial news.", "start": 1322.07, "end": 1324.49 } ], "start": 1266.81, "end": 1324.49, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You have also, like, TV, like, might be state sponsored.", "start": 1325.27, "end": 1329.19 }, { "text": "You might pay for additional content.", "start": 1329.19, "end": 1331.0499 }, { "text": "But it's just like a showcase is that necessarily the same piece of content doesn't need to be, priced in a way where, you know, everyone necessarily is paying the same thing even if you let's say you read a piece of, a a blog post, and and everyone can actually consume it.", "start": 1332.07, "end": 1351.005 }, { "text": "Doesn't need to necessarily be behind of a paywall.", "start": 1351.34, "end": 1353.92 }, { "text": "And I actually think that that Internet is going towards direction of a paywall, so we're seeing more and more, different kinds of news outlets actually, putting lot of the, lot of the consumption behind, a a paid, service.", "start": 1354.06, "end": 1373.9551 } ], "start": 1325.27, "end": 1373.9551, "num_words": 117.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I believe that, you know, you can actually monetize and, get support from your audience, by leaving the choice for, the actual, consumers of the content on, whether to pay for the content or not.", "start": 1374.8151, "end": 1391.97 }, { "text": "And it would have to pay.", "start": 1392.35, "end": 1393.39 }, { "text": "I I think the collect is a way of actually appreciating, you know, that I want, this creator to actually continue, finding new exciting things and and and seeing future new content.", "start": 1393.39, "end": 1406.9651 }, { "text": "So in in some sort of ways when you're collecting something, it's, it it it it's basically funding or, placing, a a bet that's, you know, there's gonna be in the future more exciting content that you wanna, see.", "start": 1406.9651, "end": 1424.145 }, { "text": "And and it also gives more, flexibility for the consumer to think about, like, whether I'm, capable of, paying for this content.", "start": 1424.225, "end": 1433.345 } ], "start": 1374.8151, "end": 1433.345, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And also, like, takes a a bit more different kind of approach where, you know, every single person should pay the same thing.", "start": 1433.345, "end": 1441.8401 }, { "text": "But maybe, you know, I'm in a position to pay today.", "start": 1442.2201, "end": 1445.8401 }, { "text": "Some of those might be in in tomorrow as long as you have some sort of pricing mechanism that, you're able to do as a creator, what you, love to do.", "start": 1445.9, "end": 1457.1749 }, { "text": "So so there it it really opens the design space and, we've have been doing some research on on why people collect and and some of these reasons are that they wanna support, they want additional, things or, a third one which is very interesting is that, they wanna be part of a, a community.", "start": 1457.875, "end": 1480.115 }, { "text": "So if you are collecting someone a a provider's, let's say, content, you know, you're you're part of that community so that the the provider recognizes that.", "start": 1480.415, "end": 1489.855 } ], "start": 1433.345, "end": 1489.855, "num_words": 147.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, that can be used in different ways, in in in the future.", "start": 1490.575, "end": 1496.06 }, { "text": "So it can be purely fully without, utility, but it it it definitely has that kind of value aspect there.", "start": 1496.06, "end": 1504.0801 } ], "start": 1490.575, "end": 1504.0801, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1505.2251, "end": 1505.7251 }, { "text": "I think that it's, I mean, for me, it's, it's interesting because, I mean, on one side, you know, one of the, I guess, criticisms about the creator economy or, like, artists putting their their content online and what that's what that's what has, like, been caused out of it is, like, especially if you look at music, is kind of like the downward spiral of, like, how, or the the cheapening of art or, like, cheapening of of content.", "start": 1505.8651, "end": 1536.175 }, { "text": "And I think that's opening up that design.", "start": 1537.115, "end": 1540.235 }, { "text": "Like, right now, that is the design that we are kind of, like, forced into.", "start": 1540.235, "end": 1544.255 }, { "text": "It's sort of like this, race to the bottom, I think a bit, with a lot of these platforms and how they work and And", "start": 1544.72, "end": 1549.4401 } ], "start": 1505.2251, "end": 1549.4401, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "with AI.", "start": 1549.4401, "end": 1549.8 } ], "start": 1549.4401, "end": 1549.8, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "How they extract.", "start": 1549.92, "end": 1550.74 }, { "text": "And now with the AI, who knows how that's going to, fuck things up.", "start": 1551.84, "end": 1555.7001 }, { "text": "The opening of that design space, I think, allows for, just like new types of expression that people may be more interested in in being a part of that don't necessarily commodify the art or the content.", "start": 1557.015, "end": 1570.63 }, { "text": "And so one of the things that I wanted to get to is that, you know, like, people think of now, you hear a lot, like social media platforms consider users as the product, or at least a big part of the product in which they sell these advertising packages that are sold based on your posting history and based on, you know, like which market category you fit in.", "start": 1572.69, "end": 1597.33 }, { "text": "They want you to they sell probably higher prices for more expensive users or wealthier users.", "start": 1597.33, "end": 1603.99 } ], "start": 1549.92, "end": 1603.99, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But this sort of came about because, you know, some will say that no one wanted to pay for anything over the Internet.", "start": 1604.61, "end": 1610.145 }, { "text": "Like that was like people were afraid to put in their credit cards.", "start": 1610.145, "end": 1612.305 }, { "text": "They didn't want to, do, like, micro payments or things like that.", "start": 1612.305, "end": 1615.8251 }, { "text": "And it's only pretty recent that that and I think Patreon, actually, I would argue that's a separate discussion.", "start": 1615.8251, "end": 1620.7051 }, { "text": "That's kind of, like, opened up that door a little bit.", "start": 1620.865, "end": 1622.965 } ], "start": 1604.61, "end": 1622.965, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But so everyone sort of like expected or wanted everything for free.", "start": 1624.07, "end": 1628.17 }, { "text": "But now with, Web three, crypto, whatever you want to call it, it introduces the potential for new revenue models or new, ways of of of making money.", "start": 1629.11, "end": 1642.325 }, { "text": "So, like, knowing that, big tech social media is sort of in the camp of, everything is free, but we're selling you and that's our revenue model.", "start": 1643.265, "end": 1655.53 }, { "text": "Like, what is the revenue model for Lens or or even, like, what are some alternative types of, revenue models for, this type of Web three point zero social media?", "start": 1655.59, "end": 1666.41 } ], "start": 1624.07, "end": 1666.41, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1667.165, "end": 1667.405 }, { "text": "And I I think it's actually quite interesting how people think about getting things free online because, I I also think it it it it definitely boils down to in one perspective to the point that, you know, people were scared to put the credit card online.", "start": 1667.405, "end": 1683.4 }, { "text": "You know, whenever you were purchasing anything, you went to look at the reviews, you know, whether this is actually a a, credible, online, you know, ecommerce shop, for example.", "start": 1684.34, "end": 1695.24 }, { "text": "But there's also another issue related to that is that, you know, there wasn't, for quite a while, ways of of paying online.", "start": 1695.3, "end": 1704.215 }, { "text": "So, you know, PayPal changed that quite significantly.", "start": 1704.995, "end": 1708.215 } ], "start": 1667.165, "end": 1708.215, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Stripe Stripe made it even easier.", "start": 1708.995, "end": 1711.175 }, { "text": "But at the same time, the the amount of, kind of, like, a free content expanded online.", "start": 1712.03, "end": 1718.4299 }, { "text": "And I I think it's a good it's it's really a good thing as well.", "start": 1718.4299, "end": 1723.39 }, { "text": "So, like, the the way I see it is that what, Web one did, and me who you know, I grew up over the Internet.", "start": 1723.39, "end": 1731.8351 }, { "text": "I used to play a lot of, you know, video games and and, the more bandwidth I got, like, the more the more more games I played.", "start": 1731.8351, "end": 1740.23 } ], "start": 1708.995, "end": 1740.23, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But at the same time, you know, I was spending a lot of time on actually, learning online.", "start": 1740.23, "end": 1745.03 }, { "text": "So if I compare the amounts of spending, online learning things versus, spending time, you know, growing up in school.", "start": 1745.03, "end": 1754.245 }, { "text": "Definitely, I spend more time learning, over the Internet.", "start": 1754.945, "end": 1758.725 }, { "text": "And what I realized is that, this access to to free content is, like, very democratizing.", "start": 1759.105, "end": 1766.405 }, { "text": "So, you can get any information, whatever you want to learn.", "start": 1766.785, "end": 1773.35 } ], "start": 1740.23, "end": 1773.35, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That does it doesn't exist in your local library, especially coming from a small country, from the Nordics.", "start": 1773.57, "end": 1781.2699 }, { "text": "You don't have, you know, the same access to information or same access to people.", "start": 1782.625, "end": 1786.885 }, { "text": "And that creates a bit of inequality.", "start": 1787.6649, "end": 1789.365 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1789.6649, "end": 1790.1649 }, { "text": "And I think Internet did it pretty well of actually establishing first as, very scale, free information, free access, content, and and we had this amazing open source movement.", "start": 1790.465, "end": 1804.5599 } ], "start": 1773.57, "end": 1804.5599, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, that's one of the reasons why, 99.9 something percent of of most of the servers are running open source software.", "start": 1804.5599, "end": 1812.8999 }, { "text": "Linux, for example, and Linux Doorbell is another, example from from another, Finnish person, building open source.", "start": 1814.205, "end": 1823.345 }, { "text": "That's right.", "start": 1823.645, "end": 1824.285 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1824.285, "end": 1824.785 }, { "text": "But what I what I see fascinating is that the the WebOne, you know, created this kind of like a democratization opportunity that now, you know, everyone can have access to the base information, and and kind of, like, left, like, left on the side, like, how we we're gonna monetize.", "start": 1825.645, "end": 1843.635 } ], "start": 1804.5599, "end": 1843.635, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it actually feels very, hard to see these days when you're looking at the Wikipedia page, you know, and you have this, donation popping up with, like, you know, can you, donate two pounds or $2, for, keeping Biggie Betty running, which is like like in one perspective kind of like, it's one of the most important, like, online libraries and source of informations for every single person in the planet.", "start": 1843.695, "end": 1870.4 }, { "text": "So, and with web two, we we created more of like platforms where, we put people together and very easy create them easy tools, to create that content.", "start": 1870.4, "end": 1883.445 }, { "text": "So we don't need any more, you know, authorities or university pages or a certificate.", "start": 1883.445, "end": 1889.12 }, { "text": "But, like, anyone can actually create content that is, valuable.", "start": 1889.34, "end": 1893.2 }, { "text": "There's insights.", "start": 1893.6599, "end": 1894.46 } ], "start": 1843.695, "end": 1894.46, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There's knowledge.", "start": 1894.46, "end": 1895.2799 }, { "text": "There's resource resources.", "start": 1896.1399, "end": 1897.7599 }, { "text": "And then pretty much like the the the idea where how we can actually monetize, you know, everything derived to ads because, you know, you have this, history of of not monetizing.", "start": 1899.0199, "end": 1910.845 }, { "text": "And and, you know, that's why what social media platforms are interested when they are, you know, building their product is that how often they can get you back, how much time you spend.", "start": 1911.3049, "end": 1922.3501 }, { "text": "And the more time you spend on the platforms, and, the more you engage, the more they can actually sell ads, but also the more they can actually charge for those ads.", "start": 1922.3501, "end": 1934.4349 } ], "start": 1894.46, "end": 1934.4349, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's it's very ads driven, mechanism.", "start": 1934.4349, "end": 1938.375 }, { "text": "But now, like, if you look into, the the the reality where we are from technical standpoints, you can actually pretty much monetize, lot of the content.", "start": 1939.475, "end": 1951.1201 }, { "text": "And that's why I'm I'm thinking why Internet some part of the the content, especially kind of like a premium content, is moving behind a paywall, in in in in more of, like, a news site.", "start": 1951.1201, "end": 1965.245 }, { "text": "When when you want to read some, interesting article on on a online newspaper, you know, you you hit very quickly the the the the request to sign up and and and subscribe.", "start": 1966.345, "end": 1978.1599 }, { "text": "But I think what's, valuable is that, instead of actually just hiding the content, how do we can actually keep the content democratic.", "start": 1978.5399, "end": 1989.245 } ], "start": 1934.4349, "end": 1989.245, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So how we can allow anyone the access to to see at least most of the, relevant base information that that people need and insights to keep them up to date.", "start": 1989.4651, "end": 2000.285 }, { "text": "And at the same time, how we can support the creators.", "start": 2001.29, "end": 2004.4299 }, { "text": "And by support, I don't really mean that, you know, we want to ensure that the creators get, enough funds to, you know, write a next story or pay their bills, but actually how they can actually build businesses, that could even scale on on this new model of of of Webtree.", "start": 2005.53, "end": 2023.125 }, { "text": "That's why I think, like, the, NFTs are, very exciting way to monetize user generated content where we keep the information, democratically accessible.", "start": 2023.505, "end": 2036.8 }, { "text": "But at the same time, we can create models where and and design where where actually there's subscribers that are willing to come, and and pay.", "start": 2037.9801, "end": 2047.575 } ], "start": 1989.4651, "end": 2047.575, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think we're suffering in the Internet and also, in in Webtree a bit about this idea of, we shouldn't be, monetizing and everything should be open source.", "start": 2047.875, "end": 2059.8801 }, { "text": "But I think, monetization and incentives, are a good way of actually creating a a bit more democratic culture, and and steer people towards direction where, we just build more, better things.", "start": 2060.1802, "end": 2077.075 }, { "text": "So it's it's something that we as a space we have to overcome, but also the blockchain itself provides, fascinating infrastructure, to monetize because the whole narrative of, the blockchain started from, for example, from Bitcoin, evolved into more programmable monetary Ethereum, and and now, beyond financial applications into, let's say, Web three social, and then having, you know, DAOs, these decentralized organizations with treasuries and capital allocations.", "start": 2077.075, "end": 2109.875 }, { "text": "So, I think we kind of, like, are approaching now the the the challenges that, you know, what if the the financial layer, is is baked in, you know, and and there's different kinds of incentives to ensure that we are able to produce and build things, in a way where it it it it still serves a public good general purpose, and creators can actually make a living and build businesses, around the the the infrastructure.", "start": 2109.935, "end": 2139.6501 } ], "start": 2047.875, "end": 2139.6501, "num_words": 206.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So then how does, at the moment as it works, does Lens, for example, like, take take a cut of sell of sales of, like, an NFT of something that's collected?", "start": 2140.35, "end": 2151.465 }, { "text": "Or how does, like, I how does Lens sustain itself, like, compared to yeah.", "start": 2151.465, "end": 2158.185 }, { "text": "Like, we know how so how, like, Facebook sustains itself.", "start": 2158.185, "end": 2161.165 }, { "text": "How does how does Lens sustain itself?", "start": 2161.3052, "end": 2163.385 }, { "text": "Or what is is is there a plan for, trying to do that?", "start": 2163.385, "end": 2166.96 } ], "start": 2140.35, "end": 2166.96, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In terms of monetization on the on the protocol level, so there is built in monetization mechanisms for the protocol.", "start": 2167.28, "end": 2174.64 }, { "text": "So so it can take a fee out of, all the clicks or, any other kind of revenue that could be, for example, users paying to follow, a particular user, for, mirroring fees.", "start": 2174.64, "end": 2190.4548 }, { "text": "So mirroring is similar to sharing or pre tweeting and being able to capture those fees.", "start": 2190.515, "end": 2196.54 }, { "text": "So down the line, that is something that can be activated.", "start": 2196.68, "end": 2199.98 }, { "text": "We we, as a team, we hope that that happens more of when the protocol gets more decentralized.", "start": 2201.0798, "end": 2206.94 } ], "start": 2167.28, "end": 2206.94, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's it's further built down the line.", "start": 2207.0798, "end": 2208.915 }, { "text": "So we are at version one now, and it's live on on on Polygon.", "start": 2208.915, "end": 2213.735 }, { "text": "But down the line, but we expect that, many of these monetization decisions on a protocol level happen, through, the community.", "start": 2215.715, "end": 2224.91 }, { "text": "And one, big difference about, Lens is that, you might see a content created, let's say, one of the applications built on top.", "start": 2225.45, "end": 2236.65 }, { "text": "So let's say, Leinster, which is an open source client that, you know, anyone can fork and and, build their own version.", "start": 2236.65, "end": 2245.415 } ], "start": 2207.0798, "end": 2245.415, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So so for example, the content might be created in Lanser but collected in another application.", "start": 2245.715, "end": 2254.09 }, { "text": "So let's say, butterfly or orb.", "start": 2254.09, "end": 2256.81 }, { "text": "These are the two example, applications or or favor, and they might be collected there in this in the another application or mirrored and and somewhere else collected.", "start": 2256.81, "end": 2268.695 }, { "text": "So, all these applications, they can actually share, the fees that they're collecting with the protocol itself between all these applications, between users.", "start": 2268.695, "end": 2279.8398 }, { "text": "So you have these different kinds of layers of monetization, but the, the key difference here is that, you know, it's it's very much, symbiotic.", "start": 2280.22, "end": 2290.8 } ], "start": 2245.715, "end": 2290.8, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, they're growing together and sharing fees, which is kind of unheard of.", "start": 2290.94, "end": 2296.9749 }, { "text": "One, let's say, bigger social media platform sharing, directly with another one based on the content that is, created.", "start": 2297.195, "end": 2304.555 }, { "text": "So they serve to each other, content creation, that liquidity.", "start": 2304.555, "end": 2309.5698 }, { "text": "They serve to each other distribution experiences, onboarding more users, and it's kind of like a building towards, the same, social drafts that that pulls pulls them, together.", "start": 2310.99, "end": 2323.055 }, { "text": "And in itself, the protocol is very modularized.", "start": 2323.755, "end": 2327.215 } ], "start": 2290.94, "end": 2327.215, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, obviously, it's mainly based on smart contracts.", "start": 2327.275, "end": 2329.595 }, { "text": "So there's, modules that you can create that might have additional functionality.", "start": 2329.595, "end": 2335.81 }, { "text": "So recently, we created, a module that allows also token gated content.", "start": 2335.87, "end": 2341.3901 }, { "text": "So, you pay a fee, and and this enables, to unlock the content and see what's, what was hidden, as a user.", "start": 2341.3901, "end": 2351.785 }, { "text": "If you want that kind of like a typical, Internet paywall, experience as well.", "start": 2351.785, "end": 2358.425 } ], "start": 2327.275, "end": 2358.425, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's end of the day, Lens protocol is is just a, different kinds of, Web three social primitives that can be applied to different kinds of use cases.", "start": 2358.425, "end": 2369.8801 }, { "text": "So you might select just, oh, I want to have, you know, the collects for for the content.", "start": 2369.8801, "end": 2376.615 }, { "text": "I wanna keep profiles also on chain, but I might have I want I might want to keep the followings, in a in a cloud because I wanna create a a bit more private, social network.", "start": 2376.675, "end": 2388.6501 }, { "text": "So I'm I'm gonna use, the best ingredients.", "start": 2388.6501, "end": 2391.6301 }, { "text": "So I'm I'm I'm I'm as application builder or integrator, I'm choosing what parts I wanna use on chain and what parts I wanna use, on on chain, for my use case.", "start": 2392.49, "end": 2403.515 } ], "start": 2358.425, "end": 2403.515, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and based on your use case, you decide the monetization, but there's this kind of like a waterfall effect that's, you know, a waterfall or a river.", "start": 2403.655, "end": 2414.27 }, { "text": "It it basically gives, and it empowers every single, farm, city, country that that the that the river actually, floats over, which is quite interesting.", "start": 2416.25, "end": 2434.035 } ], "start": 2403.655, "end": 2434.035, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, yeah, if I could, summarize that maybe.", "start": 2434.415, "end": 2438.415 }, { "text": "Like, you have the so you have the social graph, which is being recorded on chain Yeah.", "start": 2438.415, "end": 2443.95 }, { "text": "Which is the, kinda, like, the back end of the social media platform that you may want to build.", "start": 2444.51, "end": 2449.57 }, { "text": "Other, because it's on chain and it's this shared database, Distributed Ledger, any one else is able to create a front end on top of that.", "start": 2450.1099, "end": 2460.2048 }, { "text": "And the protocol itself, I guess, is malleable enough for different types of content.", "start": 2460.6648, "end": 2466.125 } ], "start": 2434.415, "end": 2466.125, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's like I've tried out Lenster and I've tried out LensTube for for the most part, and I saw that, like, when I if I, like, shared or mirrored a video, it showed up on my Lenster, which is, like, the Twitter like Yeah.", "start": 2466.1848, "end": 2480.2698 }, { "text": "Social media.", "start": 2481.45, "end": 2482.0898 }, { "text": "So I was and, you know, when you go through, like, the lens protocol sort of home page, you can see that there are many different types of, front ends, different front ends that are available that you can use use the same social graph that is associated with your, Ethereum wallet.", "start": 2482.0898, "end": 2498.395 }, { "text": "So it's it's, the incentives are changed, quite a bit there.", "start": 2498.395, "end": 2503.8098 } ], "start": 2466.1848, "end": 2503.8098, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2504.8298, "end": 2505.3298 }, { "text": "And it's kind of fascinating because, those two examples, Lancer and Lens Tube, they're just two example applications that were built to, you know, LensTree was built by one developer who built it during a hackathon, a two week hackathon, and just kind of like, as a community contributor.", "start": 2505.39, "end": 2526.7249 }, { "text": "And LensDB is also built by one, developer.", "start": 2528.19, "end": 2531.31 }, { "text": "So it actually shows, like, how little, energy or, let's say, like, input it requires to build a functional, social media application.", "start": 2531.31, "end": 2541.49 }, { "text": "I'm personally more excited about all the new things you can actually build and as make it more easier.", "start": 2542.215, "end": 2548.235 } ], "start": 2504.8298, "end": 2548.235, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You could build very quickly a social media experience.", "start": 2549.3352, "end": 2552.155 }, { "text": "Let's say that's something that is very new, to to to your space, or or or or or globally, and you can actually try more.", "start": 2553.495, "end": 2563.84 }, { "text": "So you can try to build new things.", "start": 2563.84, "end": 2565.76 }, { "text": "And if they don't work, you can build a new thing and you don't spend, like, couple of years trying to build an audience when you can actually just build an application.", "start": 2565.76, "end": 2575.145 }, { "text": "And because it's powered by Lens, you get the 100 or so thousand Web three native users.", "start": 2575.285, "end": 2581.305 } ], "start": 2549.3352, "end": 2581.305, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I actually think even, we'll get more integrations that, integrations into existing Web three applications.", "start": 2581.605, "end": 2589.54 }, { "text": "So I could see, for example, Lens being, valuable, as a social layer across the whole Web three ecosystem.", "start": 2589.68, "end": 2597.94 }, { "text": "So you will see you will see basic integrations in, beef applications or or DAO tools where, you can actually use the native, primitives, like, you know, the the commenting, logging with your, profile, sharing the content, or let's say governance proposals across the, lens protocol and the other, features there.", "start": 2598.08, "end": 2621.68 }, { "text": "Because whenever I ask, the the actual creators so there's sort of news creators, there's also a few podcasters, and and and writers.", "start": 2621.68, "end": 2633.0952 }, { "text": "And I I usually ask, like, what what brings them back to to Lens?", "start": 2633.0952, "end": 2637.5752 } ], "start": 2581.605, "end": 2637.5752, "num_words": 122.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and in many cases is from what I hear from these Webtree native, creators is that, it's a place for Webtree audiences, which is fascinating because, what it means is that if you are a new creator, and you are excited about the Webtree primitives, like the, collectibles, or, you know, owning your, online presence or or just you might be interested just in DeFi or some other topic in the space.", "start": 2637.5752, "end": 2666.345 }, { "text": "That's the right audience to to share content and and and and talk to because they are familiar of of, you know, what our collects, for example, and and they might have, also, they have already a track record of collecting.", "start": 2667.365, "end": 2682.54 }, { "text": "And it ties everyone together from the same concept, but, it doesn't restrict, for example, for me, starting to post, food pictures across the enhanced protocol and communicate and get engaged with other people who are posting food pictures, and and then kind of, like, grow the social graph with other types of, interests.", "start": 2683.8, "end": 2705.8901 }, { "text": "So it's fascinating to see that the it it ties Webtree people together, but also acts as a distribution channel, to create an audience that is, Webtree native.", "start": 2706.83, "end": 2720.055 } ], "start": 2637.5752, "end": 2720.055, "num_words": 196.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 2720.195, "end": 2720.435 }, { "text": "And also just not, I guess, tied to a single front end application that you may happen to be using, which I think, is interesting.", "start": 2720.435, "end": 2729.155 }, { "text": "And as well, to what you said kind of earlier, holding off on it sounds like you guys are holding off on sort of, like, the monetization or revenue model for Lens.", "start": 2729.155, "end": 2739.48 }, { "text": "There's a possibility there that perhaps for later, but it opens the door, not that I'm insinuating what exactly you guys are going to do, but it opens the door or possibility for a kind of collectively owned or governed, social graph protocol.", "start": 2739.48, "end": 2754.455 }, { "text": "So you're like, so there is the possibility, like, of, you know, there was a few years ago, maybe I think, I can't remember how long now, but people had been, wanting to turn Twitter into a cooperative, for example Yeah.", "start": 2754.515, "end": 2769.29 } ], "start": 2720.195, "end": 2769.29, "num_words": 142.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "As, like, kind of a joke because because they they were, I think their Twitter was, like, going to be sold or something like that and people were like, alright, let's, you know, like, maybe we can pool some money together and we can turn Twitter into a cooperative.", "start": 2769.3699, "end": 2777.995 }, { "text": "But of course, like, it's just, like, given the legal sort of financial, and legal system, like, it's just, like, a huge task to undertake that just, like, is not really possible under US law and to do it that's, like, across, like, national borders, like, it it it's it's not possible.", "start": 2778.215, "end": 2794.67 }, { "text": "But, having one built on smart contracts, on a blockchain, opens up the design space a bit more to where maybe that that is a possibility where you can have a social media platform or really it's the social graph is, like, ownable, by the users who who actually use it, which I think is, pretty interesting.", "start": 2794.67, "end": 2817.36 } ], "start": 2769.3699, "end": 2817.36, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I I think it's very it's it's very valuable for creators, especially because, when when you build an audience, you really wanna have the connections.", "start": 2817.36, "end": 2825.62 }, { "text": "You really wanna have a voice, and and the distribution.", "start": 2825.6802, "end": 2829.5852 }, { "text": "It might be less, for example, valuable for, a user that is just, like, using social media to, maybe just, showcase.", "start": 2830.6052, "end": 2840.16 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2840.7, "end": 2841.02 }, { "text": "Or even like I mean, I do I I do that quite a lot, but, like, I I mean, like, for example, that's, if if you don't really care about your, you know, social graph, then, you know, you could just keep your followers in in a, more traditional, database or some sort of, federated model.", "start": 2841.02, "end": 2859.115 } ], "start": 2817.36, "end": 2859.115, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, like, like, I I guess, like, if it must master them, for example, one of the issues is that, you know, when, someone quits, hosting a server, you know, that the data availability is lost.", "start": 2859.115, "end": 2870.6 }, { "text": "So for example, that's the content and, in most cases, also the, the identity part.", "start": 2870.6, "end": 2877.24 }, { "text": "And I I know that some of the projects like, Twitter's, Blue Sky is trying to solve, a bit the portability challenge that, also the the the federated networks have.", "start": 2877.24, "end": 2889.035 }, { "text": "But, like, with the blockchain based guarantees, you can actually have the data data availability, and also execution.", "start": 2889.335, "end": 2899.7 }, { "text": "So data validity means that, you know, you have those followers and that's your audience.", "start": 2899.7, "end": 2904.76 } ], "start": 2859.115, "end": 2904.76, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then the execution that comes from the blockchain is if you want to apply that too with Lens protocol, it means, for example, that maybe only people that follow me, or collect one of my items can actually, comment or whoever has collected previously my content can, be the first person to to comment whatever I I might have or, decrypt something that is, you know, token gated.", "start": 2905.005, "end": 2933.975 }, { "text": "So you can create this kind of like a, verified jewels, based on, activity.", "start": 2933.975, "end": 2941.415 }, { "text": "And I I find this very fascinating because, on chain data and blockchain based data, we we kind of, like, are creating it all the time, and we love the idea of, like, you know, transparent markets and understanding, like, what's happening in, decentralized finance, and understanding, let's say, like, colorizations of different, protocols.", "start": 2941.415, "end": 2962.73 }, { "text": "But at the same time, we're creating this kind of like a, on chain Webtree, economic footprint, and each of us has their own Webtree footprint.", "start": 2963.835, "end": 2973.855 }, { "text": "And based on that, it actually helps to create verified data points that could be used in, for example, in credit in the future.", "start": 2974.155, "end": 2983.95 } ], "start": 2905.005, "end": 2983.95, "num_words": 187.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Very typical problem is that when you move from one country to another, you you can't really passport your credit history, for example.", "start": 2985.05, "end": 2993.075 }, { "text": "But something that's, on chain, verified, depending on how much verification you need and and what kind of data, that's that's basically cross border and that could be used in various different use cases.", "start": 2993.375, "end": 3006.23 }, { "text": "And we're just so early that's, we don't have those, use cases yet.", "start": 3006.23, "end": 3011.69 }, { "text": "And and then on top of that, base layer, you can build different kinds of things, like, for example, privacy, private networks, and and apply anything that specifically is is needed without actually then creating a situation where the users need to give up of their, you know, ownership of their, profiles and and their distribution.", "start": 3011.91, "end": 3037.0999 }, { "text": "So I I find, I I find the the blockchain component very valuable piece of giving guarantees and also, debt modernization part.", "start": 3037.24, "end": 3050.7048 } ], "start": 2985.05, "end": 3050.7048, "num_words": 148.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and the reason for that is also that, if you think about, like, financial capital, a lot of people have, let's say, financial wealth.", "start": 3050.765, "end": 3060.145 }, { "text": "But what every single person in the planet has is the social capital.", "start": 3061.07, "end": 3064.27 }, { "text": "So, you know, the connections you create, the network you have, the distribution, and not being able to actually have ownership over that is is very, hard challenge at this point.", "start": 3064.27, "end": 3078.325 }, { "text": "And I think, that can that's gonna be one of the features of Lens that will be appreciated, over the long run because, creator it it it gives the ownership, but it also changes the dynamic.", "start": 3078.945, "end": 3091.365 }, { "text": "So, the creators and the users, they have more actually power, and pool of of of how these applications and algorithms are built because, not only the computation is done by open data, but at the same time, it opens up the competition.", "start": 3091.52, "end": 3111.075 } ], "start": 3050.765, "end": 3111.075, "num_words": 148.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So what decentralized finance did to finance is that, it democratizes democratized the the access to to build next generation financial, applications.", "start": 3111.135, "end": 3124.69 }, { "text": "And with, Lens and Web three social, what happens also is that anyone can actually come and build better algorithms.", "start": 3125.31, "end": 3133.63 }, { "text": "And as a user, you have more choice.", "start": 3133.63, "end": 3135.65 }, { "text": "So if we go back to the the previous discussion where we're thinking about the monetization models, and how the algorithms will work, in in web two space, they have to be tuned into, profitability.", "start": 3136.125, "end": 3152.43 }, { "text": "They have to basically be tuned into, getting you to come more often into the application.", "start": 3152.73, "end": 3159.87 } ], "start": 3111.135, "end": 3159.87, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and and then that allows those platforms to actually charge more for, the ads, which is kind of a, crazy idea because probably the most of the exciting, social media use cases might be coming from applications where you might just open them, you know, once a week to do something, like, very, very valuable, but less frequently.", "start": 3161.61, "end": 3183.9502 }, { "text": "And if we are able to monetize that and provide that as a kind of, like, a business that could be built on top of these open protocols, I think we're in in a quite good path.", "start": 3185.05, "end": 3195.385 } ], "start": 3161.61, "end": 3195.385, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3195.525, "end": 3195.925 }, { "text": "So so maybe some of my my closing thoughts since I know, we're at the top of the hour.", "start": 3196.405, "end": 3200.485 }, { "text": "But, yeah.", "start": 3200.485, "end": 3202.805 }, { "text": "For me, I see, like, blockchains are already a social graph.", "start": 3202.805, "end": 3206.105 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 3206.165, "end": 3206.565 } ], "start": 3195.525, "end": 3206.565, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's just that they're sort of, for the most part, it's kind of, tracking one type of social interaction, which are usually based on finance, usually based on money or something", "start": 3207.125, "end": 3216.21 } ], "start": 3207.125, "end": 3216.21, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "like that.", "start": 3216.21, "end": 3216.29 }, { "text": "Transactions, yeah.", "start": 3216.29, "end": 3217.17 } ], "start": 3216.21, "end": 3217.17, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, but it's still, like, it's been helpful for me at least, like, for just for an example, I have, like, airdrops, you know, bread tokens from the crowd seeking application that we built on top of AAVE.", "start": 3217.17, "end": 3229.0852 }, { "text": "I got airdrops, like, the first little bits to people who have bought NFTs of, like, the mirror blog posts that we posted before.", "start": 3229.0852, "end": 3236.125 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3236.125, "end": 3236.605 }, { "text": "I would not have known I would not have been able to do that, like, without a blockchain.", "start": 3236.605, "end": 3240.41 }, { "text": "Like, that's just it would not be possible.", "start": 3240.41, "end": 3242.17 } ], "start": 3217.17, "end": 3242.17, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That was a way to, like I was not planning to do that, but afterwards I was like, maybe that would be, like, a good idea because all that is tracked.", "start": 3242.17, "end": 3248.3298 }, { "text": "Like, all that is is known, so I can reward the people who helped out afterward after the fact, with a with a little bit of, tokens.", "start": 3248.3298, "end": 3255.515 }, { "text": "And then the other part I wanted to, mention I think was interesting is that, like, the algorithm in which you see information, that you see in your feed, is a front end capability.", "start": 3256.695, "end": 3267.92 }, { "text": "Like that's that's, which means that each application can show information based on different needs.", "start": 3267.92, "end": 3276.3198 }, { "text": "So you can go to the maybe you'll have a choice between, the application that is, meant to give you, tweets that make you angry versus another one that gives you tweets, that make you happy or whatever.", "start": 3276.3198, "end": 3287.615 } ], "start": 3242.17, "end": 3287.615, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, like, that that optimizes for different types of interaction and while still using the same, back end and and social graph.", "start": 3287.615, "end": 3295.55 }, { "text": "So I think this is like this this, idea of, like, creating more competition in the in the front end of social media space.", "start": 3296.25, "end": 3303.6099 } ], "start": 3287.615, "end": 3303.6099, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3303.6099, "end": 3303.8499 }, { "text": "Exactly.", "start": 3303.8499, "end": 3304.3298 }, { "text": "And the the the the actual the very front end, you know, it it can be really anything.", "start": 3304.3298, "end": 3309.675 }, { "text": "It can be a front end that is actually, living and existing in IPFS or one of these data availability layers, or you can work exactly like, a normal, Internet application in terms of experiences and and whatnot.", "start": 3309.675, "end": 3326.91 }, { "text": "So typically, when when you go one of these applications, whether it's like Lancer or, you know, Butterfly Paper, like, and and bunch of other ones that has been built.", "start": 3326.91, "end": 3337.475 } ], "start": 3303.6099, "end": 3337.475, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They they also have very optimistic way of building.", "start": 3338.015, "end": 3341.295 }, { "text": "So when you, create a post or you comment, that is reflected to you right away.", "start": 3341.295, "end": 3347.215 }, { "text": "So you will you it it will feel to you as it's a normal ancient application and the blockchain logic is happening, in in the background, creating a transaction and, and and and and and and so forth.", "start": 3347.215, "end": 3364.4048 }, { "text": "So a lot of the things are actually abstracted away from the users, and this was one of the core, decisions that we made in the very early that, you know, if we want to build for, you know, adoption and users that are less technical and we wanna want more more people into the space, we really need to think about, like, how we get into the same level as all these applications, but we will have, the guarantees that something like a blockchain data availability, or any other other decent use technology actually, provides.", "start": 3364.4048, "end": 3401.035 }, { "text": "And that was, like, a very important, decision from us, and also learning because it wasn't easy to achieve and educate all the users that, no.", "start": 3401.335, "end": 3412.22 } ], "start": 3338.015, "end": 3412.22, "num_words": 185.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You actually, you know, you press you you press this button, and you don't need to pay gas.", "start": 3412.22, "end": 3417.8052 }, { "text": "You don't need to sign for transactions.", "start": 3417.8052, "end": 3419.5852 }, { "text": "You know, everything just happens in the background.", "start": 3420.3652, "end": 3423.0051 }, { "text": "Like, it it really feels and educating also all the, integrators and and people who are building, on top of the lens protocol.", "start": 3423.0051, "end": 3433.99 }, { "text": "So that's that's kind of that was kind of, like, a, decision that we, made.", "start": 3433.99, "end": 3439.3499 } ], "start": 3412.22, "end": 3439.3499, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But end of the day, it's a set of primitives that were whatever is your use case for some applications, they they just want to have the ability to sign in with your, lens profile and and maybe show things.", "start": 3439.3499, "end": 3452.295 }, { "text": "And I really like what you said about, the fact that the whole blockchain is a social graph and and full of interactions because that's the way I see it.", "start": 3452.295, "end": 3462.6 }, { "text": "And we use part of that, on chain data to actually onboard, a lot of the early adopters.", "start": 3463.22, "end": 3469.54 }, { "text": "So the protocol is still in beta.", "start": 3469.54, "end": 3471.3 }, { "text": "So there's, roughly 100, 14,000, users that has been, that has meant minted a Lens profile.", "start": 3471.3, "end": 3482.3152 } ], "start": 3439.3499, "end": 3482.3152, "num_words": 111.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And the way we actually have been onboarding is that we we've been looking to looking into the, on chain data and and seeing, like, here's a group of people who have been using, DAOs or donated to Gitcoin or, deposited into the other protocol or, collected, a mirror post.", "start": 3483.095, "end": 3503.665 }, { "text": "Maybe they might have a interest in actually trying out, the Lens ecosystem and white listed those addresses.", "start": 3504.845, "end": 3513.565 }, { "text": "And and and based on that WebTree footprint, we're able to kind of, like, see the early, community.", "start": 3513.565, "end": 3519.9001 }, { "text": "And and, obviously, then all the events that we had, in in in Ethereum hackathons and and and being able to, create meetups.", "start": 3519.9001, "end": 3529.1 }, { "text": "We recently had a meetup in, San Francisco, for for Lens, and and we, white listed a lot of, meetup participants.", "start": 3529.1, "end": 3539.405 } ], "start": 3483.095, "end": 3539.405, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's an interesting kind of, like, a way how you can use on chain data, that way.", "start": 3539.5452, "end": 3545.165 }, { "text": "And at the same time, I see Lens protocol being kind of like a organized way of creating distribution, to distribute content, and connect with peers.", "start": 3546.47, "end": 3557.53 }, { "text": "And so so that's those are the kind of, like, a primitives that that make makes Lens social, and and valuable across the whole Webtree space as a as a social graph.", "start": 3559.345, "end": 3570.8052 } ], "start": 3539.5452, "end": 3570.8052, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nice.", "start": 3571.0251, "end": 3571.5 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3571.66, "end": 3571.9 }, { "text": "I'm, I mean, I'm I'm sympathetic to, to the efforts, because yeah.", "start": 3571.9, "end": 3578.54 }, { "text": "I mean, I think I think by now everybody realizes we need some sort of alternative to social media.", "start": 3578.54, "end": 3585.035 }, { "text": "Just like, I think there's just so much there's so much inertia with people being on social on certain social media platforms.", "start": 3585.035, "end": 3591.135 } ], "start": 3571.0251, "end": 3591.135, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, yeah, I'm really hoping that within my lifetime, at the very least, we'll see people begin to transition away from away from these big tech platforms and begin to think about the, the positive benefits to using something like a protocol instead of a platform.", "start": 3592.875, "end": 3610.09 } ], "start": 3592.875, "end": 3610.09, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I and I and I think also that's, because we have seen a lot of movements recently.", "start": 3610.23, "end": 3614.835 }, { "text": "So we've seen, people going from Twitter to Mastodon and and, you know, realizing, oh, the experience wasn't the same or maybe the interactions weren't went the same that that they had in in, let's say, in Twitter or other social media platforms.", "start": 3614.895, "end": 3628.91 }, { "text": "So, like, I what I learned from, for example, from, Aave previously and, going forward is that, like, for adoption, we we simply just need to build a better, you know, faster and stronger, software or applications or, communities.", "start": 3628.91, "end": 3648.2852 }, { "text": "So I I I think the fact that something is decentralized or it's, like, having that, ideological perspective necessarily don't bring the users.", "start": 3648.345, "end": 3659.96 }, { "text": "So, what I like to do is I I like to bake in those kind of, like, user guarantees, into, into the protocol, and ensure that, like, everything that we we kind of, like, build.", "start": 3659.96, "end": 3676.615 } ], "start": 3610.23, "end": 3676.615, "num_words": 158.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, like like, our our vision at at Avaya is that we want to build a people powered Internet that benefits all.", "start": 3676.615, "end": 3684.9001 }, { "text": "And the way I'm trying to think about this vision is that we bake into the, protocol these guarantees that that are good for the users and bring them close to the decision making.", "start": 3684.9602, "end": 3696.26 }, { "text": "But then when it goes to actually adoption, and getting users, we we have to build just better applications and experiences that are more exciting.", "start": 3696.5752, "end": 3707.215 }, { "text": "And I I think that's that's the kind of, like, aware we've been able we've been able to be, somewhat successful in the past, and I think has the right ingredients to get more, folks into the space.", "start": 3707.215, "end": 3720.91 }, { "text": "And then as they become users and and they are switching from one application to another as as you put your example between LensTub and Linster, they realize that, oh, actually, you know, I don't need to worry about giving up my, network to a platform because I actually have another choice and that comes as", "start": 3720.91, "end": 3739.7397 } ], "start": 3676.615, "end": 3739.7397, "num_words": 176.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "a", "start": 3739.7397, "end": 3739.8599 } ], "start": 3739.7397, "end": 3739.8599, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "realization.", "start": 3739.8599, "end": 3740.3599 }, { "text": "I think that's where we wanna be, in the future.", "start": 3741.5398, "end": 3745.4 } ], "start": 3739.8599, "end": 3745.4, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nice.", "start": 3745.8599, "end": 3746.2598 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3746.2598, "end": 3746.5798 }, { "text": "Thanks so much for, coming on and talking about Lens protocol.", "start": 3746.5798, "end": 3750.0398 }, { "text": "Maybe just to end it off, would you like to share, with people where they can keep up with the sort of latest updates on Lens, and perhaps maybe, how could people potentially join, the white list?", "start": 3750.66, "end": 3764.6948 } ], "start": 3745.8599, "end": 3764.6948, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3764.9949, "end": 3765.4749 }, { "text": "A lot of content I've share about Lens, and and we message, through the the actual Lens protocol.", "start": 3765.4749, "end": 3772.83 }, { "text": "So one of the applications, Lensr, or Lens Tube, Butterfly Favor and all there there's I calculate there's roughly 200 different kinds of apps being built, and and some are actual, you know, businesses and some are more of hacking them projects, experimentations.", "start": 3772.83, "end": 3794.1199 }, { "text": "And if you don't have a lens profile yet, you can DM me on Twitter, and I can give you a, profile so you can test the the the beta, as long as you give me some feedback.", "start": 3795.38, "end": 3808.8198 }, { "text": "And that's all all from my side.", "start": 3808.8198, "end": 3813.375 } ], "start": 3764.9949, "end": 3813.375, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I see.", "start": 3814.955, "end": 3815.355 }, { "text": "You're handling all that manually.", "start": 3815.355, "end": 3816.895 } ], "start": 3814.955, "end": 3816.895, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I do a lot of manually.", "start": 3817.435, "end": 3818.715 }, { "text": "So I, we do, you know, we we list participants based on some meetup events and Web three social.", "start": 3818.715, "end": 3826.91 }, { "text": "I I would say, like, Web three data, like, the on chain data.", "start": 3827.1301, "end": 3831.39 }, { "text": "But I really like also the manual listing and and just to give feedback and and how we can, build better social.", "start": 3832.01, "end": 3840.6648 } ], "start": 3817.435, "end": 3840.6648, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nice.", "start": 3841.125, "end": 3841.4448 }, { "text": "There you go.", "start": 3841.4448, "end": 3842.1648 }, { "text": "Go DM Stani on, on Twitter, and you can get on Lens as well.", "start": 3842.1648, "end": 3846.7449 } ], "start": 3841.125, "end": 3846.7449, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Thank you.", "start": 3847.4448, "end": 3848.1848 } ], "start": 3847.4448, "end": 3848.1848, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 9.12, "end": 12.42, "confidence": 0.88702995, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Hi, everyone. You are listening to the Blockchain Socialist Podcast.", "words": [ { "word": "hi", "start": 9.12, "end": 9.36, "confidence": 0.76956385, "punctuated_word": "Hi,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "everyone", "start": 9.36, "end": 9.76, "confidence": 0.97994095, "punctuated_word": "everyone.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "you", "start": 9.76, "end": 10.0, "confidence": 0.9985446, "punctuated_word": "You", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "are", "start": 10.0, "end": 10.16, "confidence": 0.999196, "punctuated_word": "are", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "listening", "start": 10.16, "end": 10.559999, "confidence": 0.9998907, "punctuated_word": "listening", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "to", "start": 10.559999, "end": 10.719999, "confidence": 0.99950147, "punctuated_word": "to", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8221148 }, { "word": "the", 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