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            "transcript": "Hey, everyone. This podcast episode is coming out on 08/08/2023, AKA the official publishing date for my book, Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It. What you're about to listen to is a recording of the book launch events in New York City, which took place July 23 at the MetaLabel office. As you'll hopefully hear, it was a fun event and was hosted by David z Morris, the chief insights columnist at CoinDesk. I first give a short presentation about the structure of the book, and then he interviews me and facilitates a q and a with the audience. Afterwards was a book signing and hang out with food and drinks. In the show notes, be sure to check out the Linktree where I've listed out several different places where you can order the book in different countries and regions, so be sure to check it out if you haven't ordered a copy yet. I will also be continuing my book tour as I'll be in Dallas, Texas August 10 at Who's Books at 7PM, as well as Medifest in Pula, Croatia, the Crypto Commons gathering in Austria, and in Berlin in mid September, selling and signing books if you happen to be going to any of those places. And as well, I'd like to give a very big thank you to everyone who supported me over the past years financially via Patreon or the TBS subscription NFT, who without, I would not have been able to get this far, no doubt. There's still a lot more I'm wanting to do related to the book, so be on the lookout for that through the newsletter, CryptoLafda's Discord community, and the other usual places where you can keep up with me. Alright, and with that, I hope you enjoy the recording from the Gold Launch Event. That the business press is the only place that you will actually be told the truth, and I will tell you that's mostly true. And, I also because it might be of interest to y'all, I have a a PhD that I earned a few years ago in the history of technology, which is kind of what led me to blockchain. And it is my privilege tonight to introduce Josh Davila, author of the new book Blockchain Radicals, and he'll tell you the subtitle because I forgot to write that part down. Josh is a technology theorist and writer who, much like the book that he's written, bridges a series of contradictions. He, has been active in in, left wing politics and political theory. He also has for a few years now been a consultant on blockchain technology applications to businesses in Europe. I will leave it to him to reconcile the two wolves inside of him. But what's most important about Josh is that for quite a few years now, he has been building a community of leftist and progressives. I use that word cautiously, who also happen to be interested in cryptocurrency and blockchain. He first tweeted pseudonymously as the blockchain socialist probably about two, three years ago, and, has now come out of the shadows to publish this book with Repeater. Josh is here with a preview of the book or a presentation from the book that will, be about fifteen or twenty minutes. Then he and I will have a one on one conversation for twenty or thirty minutes, and then we'll reserve the the balance of time. So plenty of time for questions from the audience, perhaps an informal discussion. Obviously, pretty small event, so we'll keep things loose. But everybody, please welcome Josh Davila to metal label. Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah. Hi. I'm Josh. I wrote a book called Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It. It came out of sort of the, I guess, synthesizing a lot of the work that I've been doing over the past three years of the blog and podcast, kind of like exploring these spaces and niches and research that people were doing that I felt like was not getting, like, much attention to. And, like, more specifically, usually having related to do some sort of, like, more left leaning or progressive kind of view of the use of technology. So, yeah. So about me, in case you need anything more, my name is Josh. I wrote, or I have been working in blockchain for about five years. I started a blog podcast around three years ago. I have a project called Bread Chain Cooperative that I've been working on for a while as well to kind of synthesize and put into practice a lot of things that I've been learning and experimenting with. I'm also filming a documentary on crypto that's taking a little bit longer than I thought it would take. And, yeah, I've been most recently, I guess, in the podcast focusing on, giving critique on the network state, a book by Balaji, who's a a tech VC think boy. And, yeah, and that's, like, the logo that I've been using on social media and such, for a while. So with so what I want to do with this presentation is just kind of give you a taste of kind of, like, the overarching framework and, like, structure of the book. And so what kind of when I was asked to write the book, I kind of, didn't I wasn't, like, given a thing to write about. There was, like, I'll just write something, like, about the left and, like, blockchain stuff. Like, write a little, like, pamphlet or something. But it ended up becoming kind of, like, a bit more of that. And that was after I I kind of like made this connection with the work of Gilles Deleuze, who's a French post Marxist thinker. And the sort of thing that he's really well known for is or one of the things, besides being very difficult to read, is what's called the critique of representational thinking. So what he says is that oftentimes, in order to understand new things, we use models of the old and sort of impose on it in order to try and, think about how it can work and, like, to make predictions about it and such. And he's saying this is wrong and bad, and we shouldn't be thinking this way. Example of this would be something like the drum machine I like to use. So the drum machine was, piece of technology that was created in order to allow people to create, or to be able to play music without needing a drummer with a drum set. So you can get the machine, you buy it, you press the buttons, and then it'll play the beats that the drummer was supposed to play, but he couldn't make it to practice. So in this kind of, like, conceptual model of what the drum machine was meant to do, it was a representation of a drummer with a drum set. That means it was a lesser version. So, like, a lot of, like, platonic, philosophy, like, focuses around, like, the ideal forms of things. And so he describes this as thinking like a tree, that you have, like, the trunk, which is, like, the ideal representation of whatever it is. For example, a drummer with a drum set. And then you have the things kind of going around it that are representations of it, but lesser than the ideal form. And so Deleuze is obsessed with potatoes because potatoes have what's called a rhizomatic, structure to their roots. So do, like, mycelial networks of mushrooms, but essentially, it describes a shape that doesn't have a clear center to it, that it's kind of, like, overlapping and has different it's kinda like a hierarchical structure, different centers. And so, kind of the thing that I connected with, the book and with crypto was that this type of thinking is endemic in crypto, since basically the start of it. You know, Bitcoin was created as a peer to peer electronic cash system. That was its intention. That was kinda like the representation. That was a model that, you know, Satoshi or and whoever they are, sort of made Bitcoin to be. And inside was infused, you know, this narrative of being similar to gold and, this kind of metaphor or this model of using, Bitcoin as a, kind of extension of, like, thinking that the gold standard was the best form of monetary system. I was thinking about Bitcoin as digital gold. And so since there had already been sort of this existing political group of of people who we call them gold bugs or people who believe this. It was like an easy kind of, like, way to get a lot of people who are already connected, believing in this one thing that thinks should exist and willing to pay money for it, especially. They got became attracted to Bitcoin. So that's, like, kind of, like, the beginning of it. You can also if you go through, just, like, a ton of things, code is law. So equating code and law together, decentralized finance. It's kind of like this thing to, like, let's do finance but decentralized. The network state is, you know, also something. DAOs used to be called decentralized autonomous corporations. So, like, the the way that we kind of, like, conceptualize these things was already modeled on things that already existed and that had certain, implications to them. This is a, endemic. So this is I like I like this quote from Alfred Kraszewski that I think, kinda goes well with this, that the map is not the territory. The word is not the thing it describes. Whenever the map is confused with the territory, a semantic disturbance is set up in the organism. The disturbance continues until the limitation of the map is recognized. Just saying that, this kind of representational thinking or the this metaphorical thinking in certain ways, like, creates a map and imposes a map on the territory, which is the thing that actually exists. And, the second quote that I really like is that, all models are wrong, but some are useful. So, you know, it's nice to have a map of, you know, Peru whenever you're in Peru. It's nice if you need to, like, find out where you need to go, you're following the streets or whatever, but the map of Peru is not the same as Peru. We and we shouldn't, like, confuse those things together. And so I think in crypto, we have many different types of maps that oftentimes people try to impose upon what it is in order to try to understand it better, but also as well in order to attract a clientele and in order to get people to separate them from their money, essentially, to buy their product and to buy their tokens or whatever else because it, you know, it adheres to an already preexisting, model of way that people think. And I think this is, like, a very, like, political choice. So, like, I like the work of of Gramsci, and he has this concept called cultural hegemony that oftentimes, you know, this this was used to explain that, social control structures of society, that the working class, kind of gets imposed this worldview by the upper classes as a way to, like, impose a certain way of thinking about the world and understanding of the world. Like, the map of our world is one that was modeled after those who have the power in order to model that world. And they impose that through structures, through institutions, and whatever else. And so in the book, kind of what I went through and applied this to cryptocurrency was, I kind of listed out the most common, representational models that are used in the cryptocurrency world, and I've divided the book into three sections. Section one is crypto as money, section two is crypto as finance, and section three as is crypto as coordination. So these are kind of, like, the three ways that I've seen just, like, in my time kind of keeping track with it, how it's kind of evolved more. In the beginning, before Ethereum, for example, like, money was kind of, like, the the main thing that people were, like, trying to tackle and, like, create making Bitcoin, like, this monetary system. Then with the advent of smart contracts, like, financial infrastructure became to be more of a thing that people wanted to emulate. And then I think more recently, you have people who are kind of, like, I think there's been a some amount of self reflection in the crypto world, like, oh, that we can't be financializing everything, and it's not so fun to be only about, like, trading digital beans with one another. And so what you're seeing is kind of, like, this expansion of the of the, like, the representational model. Money and finance could be thought of as different coordination mechanisms. And I think part of this is just, like, this evolution of people being like, oh, wait. That's not what it is. Oh, wait. That's not what it is. It's always something bigger and bigger because we're exploring more and more of the territory as time goes on and people use it. And then through all of that, in the end, I try to lay out a new concept for thinking about technology that I call techno probabilism that's meant to kind of push back against the idea of techno determinism or, like, the idea that technology is, like, the only thing that determines reality, and try to provide some more context to that question and problem about, you know, structure and agency and whether or not we have the ability to change and influence the way that we think about technology. And so yeah. So, like, this this kind of this is kind of, like, how I, you know, horribly kinda want to represent, what this kinda looks like. You have the terrain of, like, all the things that are that are possible, which is, like, kind of, like, unknown or, like, impossible to really know fully completely because we can't do it all all at once, but that the kind of the the main sort of mental model representation that we've been thinking about has sort of expanded more and more to to cover more of the terrain, but I think a lot of that terrain has still not been covered probably. And that's kind of, like, the things that I'm interested in or want to point out a little bit more sometimes. And I think this is, like, important, and it's kind of, like, a repetition of, again, like, what has happened over the Internet. The Internet was one thing at one point. I really don't like the whole, like, Web one, Web two, Web three type of narrative, but it is, like, safe to say that the Internet looks a lot different now than it did a long time ago. And we can also see that, like, the Internet is not forever. So the Internet has kind of evolved and adapted and changed based on the conditions and what has been, become, like, tooling available for different types of websites and, content over the Internet. And so yeah. So one of the things I I really like David's tweets a while back, that I think was really, like, really resonated with me as far as how to kind of I think we should be rethinking these types of things is to just build things more collectively. I think, one of the kind of main, maps or models of the world that I think we are constantly imposed upon is one, like, that is very individualistic, one that is very isolated and alienated. And so one of the things with, you know, for all its flaws, blockchain and cryptocurrencies, it does provide, I think, for a lot of people this, like, sliver of hope that, like, maybe we can create more collective ways of building things together. Even though a lot of people may not be doing that or thinking about it that way, I think that this is something that is, like, very could be very, very fruitful as far as our relationship to, the Internet and technology because I think, like, everybody kind of hates their relationship with the Internet. I think everyone's kind of, like, ambivalent towards it at this point for, for good reason. But I think we also are reliant on it in certain ways that we would not want to give up because we like to have connection with people that are on the other side of the world or whatever else. That is a nice thing that we can do as humans. And so, yeah, with the book, I got a bunch of really nice quotes from people, including Vitalik, Nick Cernick, Primavera Di Filippi, and a bunch of other people that were really, influential for me when I was, writing and, like, doing my podcast. And I found out that doing a podcast was a really nice way to network with people, so I was lucky to be able to have connections with these guys. And yeah. So the book comes out August 8, but if you ordered, a book online with a book event, then you get a book here a little bit earlier than, the launch event or than the official launch. But, yeah, I think that's it. There we go. Awesome. So I think we can probably just grab the opposite into the couch here if you want. That should So you the the first question I wanted to ask is kind of one of the big I we're trying to limit ourselves to big questions here so that we can get to everything. But the, the the big one that you alluded to with that nice circle graph is that, crypto is sort of fundamentally, especially if you understand the security model of whether you're talking about proof of work or proof of stake, there is like a monetization aspect that is truly fundamental to the way a lot of these things work. And so I I would just would love you to expand a little bit on that graph and kind of how it actually works in a practical sense to expand out from that core of money to something that is more abstractly about coordination in a general way and and perhaps in a less individualistic way while building on that platform that it it is really about money or something very much resembling money? Yeah. So I think the I mean, I would not personally characterize something like Ethereum or Bitcoin as money at all or, like, any really cryptocurrency as money, just, like, comparing it to, like, what the actual definition is. The, like, thing that I think is interesting when it comes to cryptocurrency and relationship to money is more the, like, the governance of not money, but, like, currencies or tokens, which maybe you can put money as, like, you know, one aspect or, like, one one one type. And so, like, I like like, I think of ether ether, for example, or Bitcoin or really any of these as first and foremost as, like, kind of vouchers for using the network. And, yes, it's monetized because you have to buy it most of the time. That's, like, the 99% of people, that's how they interact with it, that they buy it first. And so it has, like, a clear price. It's a kind of, a kind of commodity. And I think that's kind of, you know, in the book I go through as well, like, there are a lot of, properties of these tokens that mimic things about money, and people will kind of, like, cling on to those things and say, it's money because it can do this. Like, I can send it to someone, therefore, it's money. But it's kind of, like, I mean yeah. I don't know. They haven't spent the time to kind of, like, understand what, the kind of, like, social, institution that money kind of, inhibits. And what I find interesting for me personally is, like I said, more about on the governance side. Right now, kind of the monetary system is a very, like, technocratic institution. Like, there is no kind of, like, democratic input for what it is. There is, like, a certain imperative of, like, keeping liquidity in markets or something like that as being, like, the one thing that they need to do, and this has, like, a lot of downstream effects to to our situation now. And so I think, yeah, thinking about ways and these examples of, different forms of money is more interesting to me than, like, trying to, like like, the gold standard type of narrative about money is one that thinks of money as, like, a type of commodity or, like, a natural commodity that has, like, intrinsic value. I know you know this a lot because you've studied gold bugs before, which is just, like, a very, it's a shallow way of understanding money and how it works and not thinking of it instead as, like, this kind of social institution. For the for the for the heads out there, it's a it's a very great example of reification. Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, that I think I think that's basically it. So, like, I'm more interested in these, like, experiments of, like, basically, democratic forms of monetary system. Well, so so can we, like, look at specifics if we look at kind of, historical examples of, you know, the things that come to mind for me, and I know you write about them in the book, include, like, co ops, community currencies. I'm sure there are other that I'm that I'm forgetting, but these kind of, like, attempts to build alternative structures, within what we already have and kind of what is it that, you know, crypto or blockchain brings to the table that, for example, would make those experiments, more viable than they have been in kind of, like, the analog era or or, you know, obviously, we can't predict the future and your your rhizome metaphor is perfect. But, you know, what are maybe some potential new forms of similar collective organizing efforts? Yeah. I mean, I think that's, like, like, for me, mutual credit is a very interesting system to think about. Yeah. And you have a great analysis of an example in the book. Yeah. Yeah. So focus on circles UBI, which is based in Berlin, for that one. But, like yeah. So, like, you know, all models are wrong, but some are useful. I think there, are kind of what has happened is kinda like the hegemonic models of money, of finance are the things that generally people are wanting to build in the cryptocurrency world because that's, like, that's, the quickest way to making money, and that's, like, the imperative of capital if you're gonna invest in a business. There's, like, a lot of, like, you know, neoliberal brain in the cryptocurrency world of, like, that's basically in order to change the world, you have to make a start up, that makes money itself and takes venture capital and whatever else. But when it comes to money, you know, yeah, I think taking I think it's become an interesting place of experimentation where you can take other types of models that have not been able to get the same amount of traction as a dominant one because it is an alternative space where people are trying to experiment and filled with people who are very skeptical of the current institutions and want to create something different, I think it makes, like, a fruitful space. So, like, I really liked a recent article from Brett Scott, who's, like, a a money researcher, where he kinda talks about, the synthesis, like, a he like, kinda like a crude dialectical synthesis of, like, the, monetary, like, crypto token world or commodity money, thinking of crypto world with kinda, like, the more alternative, like, historically more progressive, kind of, monetary and currency experimentation space with community currencies, and so forth. And kinda, like, mixing those two together to create something where we use the models of these kind of alternative currency and community currency spaces, but up get the affordances of the technology as well. So, like, I think for him, it's a lot to do with scale. I think the kind of the one of the critiques of a lot of these kind of localized attempts at doing these is that they oftentimes don't last too long or they're reliant on, like, a particular person who spends a lot of time administering the system. Mhmm. I think, like, you know, being able to automate so that you're not reliant on this type of thing, but people can just use it is something that's powerful. And being able to create a space where people can kind of collectively govern is something else that's that's very And I would add to that list to, like, transparency also would be, I think, a pretty big one. Because I think of, you know, probably a lot of people are familiar with, Berkshares, the the probably the most successful community currency, I would say. But I always think, like, you know, how do you actually know that they're not just, like, printing it? You know? So so that's one very small brain way of looking at it. So, there's the kind of, like, structure of the technology, and there are certain biases that one might think at least were were kinda baked in there. And then there's kind of the history of the technology, which is very specific and we know. And, you know, going back to, like, the nineteen nineties and, the cypherpunks, aka crypto anarchists, is another term that sometimes apply to the same group who I have quite a quite a lot of sympathy to and are kind of privacy focused and really foresaw some of the issues I think that we're now really facing with the Internet. But that did sort of during especially the the early years of Bitcoin adoption kind of fed into some very specifically, libertarian, like, people who are obsessed with Ludwig von Mises and and Murray Rothbard. And that really became very strongly identified with Bitcoin, and there were even books written about it. And so I'm kind of curious for, your read of, I guess, the relationship between politics and technology both coming in and going out in the sense of, is the politics that that fed into this technology determinative of of what it's good for, you know? And and if, like, if not, where does that lack of determination come from? Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's like it's not deterministic, but it is, like, getting way ahead of the game, if that makes sense. Like, like, the unfortunate, like, truth about Bitcoin, I think, for for me is that it was successful as a technological implementation of a particular politics, and it, like, it is playing out that politics in its structure and in the way that people are interacting with it. And so yeah. I mean, I don't think, like, that determines the entirety of what will happen is kind of the the point that that that I'm on. It's, like, a more difficult job, of course, after the fact, but it's something that I think is worthwhile kind of pursuing. So, like, I kind of like I have, like, a couple of influence influences, I think, with this. Like, one, I really like, Donna Haraway's, Cyborg Manifesto. She's, like, a feminist, writer, and she talks about how, basically, like, technology is not, or say, like, faithful to its creators or to its parents oftentimes, that you can take it and use it for something else, which is, like, what hap if you I don't know. You did a PhD in history of technology. I imagine so many things that were built for one thing ended up, like, not being the thing that it was used for. Yeah. Your example of the drum machine was really good. I like that. Yeah. So I think this is sometimes lost. Like, when it comes to crypto for me, this is, like, the, like, I I very crudely try to separate, people, one side as, like, the hype men, the crypto hype men, and the other side as, like, the critic, the hype men being, like, this is gonna change the world. Do it. Let's go. And then the other one being, like, this is all stupid. Don't do it. And stay away from it. And I guess I'm trying to use, like, you know, thinking about models and maps as, like, a way to be nuanced in between these two kind of, like, very hardcore positions, I feel, so that we can find the the cracks in both the cracks in the ways that, like, the hype men are explaining it, because I feel that the critics, they kind of, like, are reacting to just the way that hype men kind of explain it to them. And then you kind of, like, lose out on a lot of, like, potentially, like, very, very interesting things and, like, radical potential for the use of of this stuff. Yeah. I mean, that that's a very interesting way that you put it in terms of, like, the the people who are motivated to profit from something often explain it. They're motivated to explain it in the dumbest possible way. And then the the people who are, you know, opposed to it are responding to that already reductive framing. And and I I love that as a I'm sorry. Go ahead. No. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna transition. I I I was gonna agree. Yes. Okay. So, so I I love that as kind of like a like a way of analyzing the dialectic. I mean, I would kind of maybe offer, like, two other categories that can go alongside, which are, like, the more nuanced categories of, like, maybe, like, true believers, probably including some people in this room who are, like, actually trying to build something and are, you know, maybe not trying to make a million dollars as their primary goal. And then I would say there's also a class of critics that is at themselves quite nuanced, paying attention to specific things. And and, you know, maybe they're skeptics of the entire thing, but they're actually, like, focusing in on here's how it's going to fail. But but I'm most interested in some, like, psychological way in the, the the sort of more knee jerk critics that you're talking about. People and and often, it seems like at various moments, you know, obviously, like, media sort of follows a cycle. So at particular moments, there is definitely a a surplus of people saying, like, all of this is fraud. Like, the like, crypto has nothing to offer. Like, none of this means anything. And it often, you know, you're you're Delusian. I'm, like, most fundamentally a Freudian. And so when I look at things like this, I feel like there's a sort of, like, reaction construction happening of, like so I guess the question is, like, in your read and this does tend to be sort of centrist liberals, I think. And and maybe to kind of beg beg the question a bit, institutionalists, who are most reactive against crypto in this, like, everything all of it is fake way. So I'm curious kind of what your take is on that aspect of of the dialogue. Like, where is that coming from where, especially, you know, often it's people who haven't necessarily looked at the technology very closely or thinking from a very US centric perspective. Like, where but where does that, like, sort of knee jerk I I I don't mean reactionary in the same sense, but, like, sort of reactionary, response to crypto come from in in in your opinion? Yeah. Maybe, like, reactive is, it would be the right ones. But yeah. No. I think, like, I think Elizabeth Warren is, like, the obvious kind of, like, person in in all of this. The banking reformer. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, like, a very I think it's a world view about, like, I mean, just a lot of trust in the status quo and in institutions themselves and that, like, it's a very much, like, we can fix it from the inside belief, which, I mean, in some cases, maybe you can and, you know, go for it. But I think it's this kind of very limiting view of kind of like only thinking of politics as, like, electoralism, I think, is is a big aspect of it. Like, thinking of being presented with the the system and, like, a map of the system usually being that being, like, the main institutions for electoralism is a big is a big one. Yeah. Speaking of mistaking the map for the territory. Right? Yeah. And so, like, I think that there is this like, people and it's, a difficult thing, I think, for a lot of people to wrap their heads around that, like, to think outside of these institutions in ways of, like in order to create influence or power, like, doesn't have to go through these institutional pathways. And that may be scary for some to do that, and it may I mean, there's just a lot of, of course, brainwashing is the right way word, but, like, thinking that anybody who does try to do that is, like, some crazy anarchist who wants to destroy the world and, you know, is it, like, Joker or something like that? But there's, like, plenty of, like, instances in history where that was the way that people changed the world and interacted with it. You know? Like, I think, you know, the way that democracy has manifested itself today, especially just, like, in The US and in Europe and as well in the West, it is kind of like a, democracy has become a kind of, like, justification machine for the status quo That, like, oh, you, you know, you elected you tried and you voted really hard, but sorry. You can't do anything about it. Next time, wait another four or five years. And I don't know. I think I think it has a lot to do with, yeah, thinking thinking in in this type of map of the world, I guess. Yeah. So sort of relevant to that, and and maybe sort of to conclude on a totally personal curiosity kind of note, you know, I, as I said, I have a lot of empathy for the viewpoints of, like, crypto anarchists, even to a certain extent, radical libertarians, for the for the very reason that you're you're outlining that there is this, like, institutionalist situation that we find ourselves in, I guess. And I guess my question would be more to your more to the socialism side of it than the than the blockchain side. But, you know, given that this comes out of such a libertarian anarchist milieu, leaving the technology to one side for a second, like, is there, you know, is there an overlap in that Venn diagram? Is there, like, strategic common ground to be found, or or maybe not strategic, maybe just kind of, like, you know, mental creative common ground to be found between, you know, people who, want to end the fed and and people who, like, you know, just want socialized health care, you know? Yeah. Sure. I mean, I think, I think, yes, there is. It's a very complex game at the same time. Like, like, for me, I like to understand politics as, like, like, all politics is a, is coalition politics that, like, it's usually, I mean, unless you have, like, real, like, a huge base that you're able to mobilize in order to make change where you have, like, the majority of the population. Usually, if you have that, it's because you have a coalition of different groups. Like, you you usually, you can't you can't make the change that you want to do without it. And I don't know. I think of, like, you know, I feel like, Yanis Varoufakis was the minister of finance in Greece during, like, the Greek, crisis. And, like, he was giving, you know I mean, he's a Marxist giving, like, recommendations for policy on what to do, like, to fight against, like, the austerity being posed by the ECB and and everyone else. And, like, like, libertarians loved him. You know, like, American libertarians loved Yanis Varoufakis because, like, they were actually find common ground. Yeah. It's like I'm reading a book right now. Like, they were able to find common ground on kind of, like, their hatred for certain types of financial or, like, the ways in which certain financial institutions have been playing the game because libertarians have this certain, I don't know, like, fairness in financial markets as, like, a as, like, a big thing. And so, like, I think there is there's a space to play in there. Of course, it's just, like, a very it's a complex one, and it's a one that requires politics. Like, it requires, like, having, you know, relationships with people that you, like, don't necessarily agree with on everything. Because to find enough people who agree with you on everything is just, like, to me a silly game to play. Yeah. Thank you. Very enlightening. So so I think we can start opening it up, to just a broader dialogue, and I'll try and keep things horizontal. But do do are there is there anybody in the audience who has a a question? Go for it. So thanks for the talk. The book seems really interesting. I've been following you for a little bit. So as somebody who's been in, like, the kind of, like, left protect space, I've seen that, as has kind of been pointed out that there's this, almost resistance against tech being integrated tech movements being integrated into, movements, as we pointed out, into institutional spaces, into institutional politics. And it seems like the biggest base would be people, that Jujak called the liberal communist, the the corporate redistributors who are, you know, early adopters of technology, like Bill Gates. Right? And that, you know, he's really into, like, nano reactors and this type of thing. Right? Right? But it But in my experience, people like Nick Chernick and, left accelerationists and these types of people have had a really hard time moving past, technocratic speak and also integration of the culture. And that the movements, you know, around these things has largely, like, look at the Bernie Sanders movement, been against really basic technologies like nuclear. So I'm just curious if there's a strategy, and what kind of politics would be connected to that strategy of, you know, of a socialism that is connected to people as opposed to kind of like a, you know, a PMC type of politics. Yeah. I I agree with the criticism. I think it's it's a tough one, but, ultimately, the thing that does probably need to happen is just, like, engaging with the communities that you are wanting to, like, build the technology for the most. Like, I mean, it's pretty common, you know, even, I don't know. I've done I've done a lot of, like, project, you know, technological project management or something, like, in corporate spaces. And even they, like, you know, you you do, like, surveys or, like, whatever. You understand, like, the thing they're trying to do. Like, it's a basic thing in, like, anthropology that you, like, you know, find identify, like, the group of people that you want to identify and, like, understand, like, use use that type of framework to understand, like, maybe the problems that they're facing and whatever else. A big also, I think one of the biggest obstacles though is that, like, technical education is very low in, like, a lot of the world that we don't like, it's not common knowledge how the Internet works, but everybody is using it all the time. But nobody is just like it's just like a little magic box that, like, you know, gives you the the text or whatever that that you want to see that your friend sent you. And this and I think this has been on purpose. Like, it's been created to be this, like, almost seemingly that it requires, like, years of intense study in order to understand, like, the basic things of how this stuff works, when it ever like, it like, some, like, some type of, like, I guess, reform, you can call it, that I think would be interesting to have. I think that would change this a lot is is if, you know, as, you know, as part of the education system, you, like, understood you are taught, like, how these things work. And that's one thing that I think the kinda like the left accelerationists and, like, other types of, I guess, left wing movements that I've tried to be more open to the use of, like, digital technologies have kind of kind of misses that they do use a lot of, like they tend to recreate them, like, the technical jargon that they're, like you know, because they're trying to, like they're understanding the the technology on the tech the original creators technologists, like, their own turf, I think. And we're not really doing much of an effort to make it, like, you know, a mass education program and how this shit works and and why it needs to be changed. And, like like, I think there is this kind of, like, paternalism of, like, well, we can't really they can't understand it because it's too difficult or something like that, whatever. I think, if I don't know. I've just found that if you sit someone down and they're willing to learn and want to participate or whatever else, they are willing to to learn about it, and and that can go a long way in, like, like, creating them the framework for how they, interact with their with their apps or whatever else. So, yeah, there's I've said a couple of things there. I mean, I can't speak to I would I would add a little bit to that, which is I can't speak to the specific, sort of portions of the movement that you're talking about. But, like, on top of the, the actual technical education, I think there is still a ton of room to grow in, you know, what you're basically doing, which is, you know, critical analysis of technology that is kind of socially informed and actually is able to think through the implications of something. I mean, and and this is where, you know, you can't necessarily teach the entire package at a social level. But also, like, we're we're dealing with it on both sides because you also have the technocrats themselves actively engaged in the process of dismantling an education system that is oriented towards inculcating any kind of critical, like, awareness into people. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. I I'll just wrap this up. But, no. Yeah. Thank you. Both of these are really great answers. I think too, like, I think one of the things that like, if we look at, like, the early Maoist movements I'm not a fan of Mao, but I do like some of the strategies, of mutual aid. Right? People didn't understand the politics, but when their life was benefited from the actual act of being benefited from a technology, they or political technology, in this case, that they maybe didn't understand. Maybe that could be a micro politics that you could push for that would, you know, make meaningful change in real people's lives. And I don't think they have to understand, you know, quantum computers or whatever you're using to make this technology real. So other questions? Yeah. Sure. So this might be an unfair question to ask you. I'm gonna ask you it anyhow. But I think it's probably impossible to predict, but I'm just kinda curious what your view is on what, like, what do you think, like, the the sort of, like, socialist endgame is for incorporating blockchain technology into society? So, like, let's fast forward ten, twenty five, fifty, hundred years, however long. All the breaks go in the direction of the left, where are we? Are we still living in a society, like, similar today, but the blockchain is occasionally used for, mutual aid and co ops, or is it, like, all of society full on on the blockchain or, like, I'm just On chain socialism. Yeah. On chain gay communist socialism or whatever. Yes. I'm just kinda curious, like, what your, what your projection is assuming the best. I I mean, like, for me, it's, I to be this like, when it comes to socialism, like, we could have had socialism without blockchain for sure. Like, I think that can exist. Like, I don't think it's like we need to have, like, the block. We need to have a cryptocurrency to make socialism. Like, I think that's kinda like a silly idea. Or maybe not like socialism per se, but just sort of like it it all moves in the direction of sort of like leftist, whatever. As far as you mean, like, starting from now, like, what would be the influence or what would what would ideally would like to see happen? Yeah. Maybe framing it less in the the context of, like, socialism or leftism, but just, like, if the the breaks all move in the direction that you'd like it to move into Alright. In fifty, hundred, however many years. Like, what do you what do you sort of view as the end game? I mean, the end game is socialism. But, I think that, I don't know. One time, I wrote, like, a big list of, like, things that I wish existed that that people could, could do. But I mean, I think it's more about, like, because for me, I think, like, we're I really hate saying this, but, like, we're really early that, because there hasn't been very much, like, experimentation with, like, specifically this technology, with a, you know, progressive lens on it or a socialist lens on it. So and I think part of that I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that. One is because of all the libertarians in this space. Like, socialists generally rejecting it in a lot of ways, socialists never having money, and, like, you know, a lot of these types of things that have been, like, huge obstacles to to making that happen. But, I mean, ideally, I would love to see just, like I mean, the biggest thing is, like, a whole lot less reliance on venture capital and, like, the idea of capital in itself, generally. Like, to me, like, a post capitalism, it means that we are less reliant on capital as, like, a social institution for how we kind of reproduce ourselves and, like, the things in the world, which means that, you know, people are just not doing things solely for, like, the profit motive. And that's a really hard problem to solve because, like, cryptocurrencies are so monetized, and, like, the main reason, like, 90% of people buy it generally is to speculate and to make money off of it. So it's, like, it's it's difficult. But I think, like and and there is, I think, another problem to solve as well is that, like, the consensus mechanisms of basically every blockchain is based on a profit motive. Like, economic incentivization is just, like, profit. It's like we're reliant. So, like, I think what why blockchains, work is because they comply with kind of, like, the the expectations of capitalism of, like, you are accumulating capital and that the world is moving forward because of that. Again, another very difficult problem, to solve, like, whether or not we need, like, the consensus mechanism should be changed to something that doesn't allow that, but also still have the same kind of safety and security guarantees that it that it gives us. Maybe that means that it's, like, like, not a blockchain and is, like, some other type of distributed ledger. Could be. I think just blockchains are the ones that the the, like, kind of infrastructure that has become the most popular and the most, like, interesting people developing on it, and that's why, like, I spend so much time looking at it and thinking about it. But I do think that there are there is, like, a, like, a non insignificant chance that, like, we need to rethink, like, blockchains themselves, and maybe that means that they are not blockchains anymore, and, you know, are able to do the things that they do without necessarily relying on capital. So those are those are a lot of things. And so, like, I and I think part of so, like, getting rid of venture capital basically means that there is funding available for people to do work that's important, that doesn't involve making a deal with the devil. I think that's a huge part. Yeah. Cool. Follow-up question to all that. It sounds like you're less a blockchain radical and more of a decentralized ledger technology radical. Maybe, but it doesn't roll off the tongue as well. Right. Like so I I guess on that note, are there any DLTs that aren't, Ethereum that you're excited about that might, yeah. That are that are not Ethereum or not Blockchain or something like that? Yeah. I guess, like, aren't Ethereum, aren't Bitcoin, like, me I guess, the definition of blockchain is a little loose, but I guess, I'm just curious if there are any technologies in the in the in the the rough family of blockchains or DLTs that you think, sort of conform to what you're describing? Yeah. So I mean, the one of the last chapters is compares a couple of, like, alternatives since the book is pretty, like, I don't know, 90% of examples are on, like, Ethereum or something like that. But I do look in like, I think I mean, Cosmos is a really interesting, like, ecosystem in itself just because of how they've thought very differently about how the different chains relate to one another. But it's still I mean, it's still based on capital. No doubt. Holochain is another one that I think is interesting that doesn't, doesn't have this type of consensus mechanism. I think one of the things that I'm waiting for from Holochain at the moment, though, is, like, just more use and more production. Like, I like you know, I've I've spoken to, like, the founders before, and I like I think a lot of their ideas are really interesting, even though they, like, really don't describe themselves as socialists or whatever. But I do think that there are some things that they say that are that are really interesting that, like, I'm interested to see what the you know, what's going to come out of it. And, like, I'm kind of, like for me, I'm just kinda, like, waiting and observing and seeing, like, what is coming out, and keeping track with those. But Holochain is one of those things that I'm like I would like to see, like, do more and and succeed, but we'll see. And if I could just, like, expand a little bit on what I think is like, the point that I agree with the most out of all you just said is which is trying to get rid of VCs. Right? Like and I'm sure this is no news to most of the people in this audience if you're paying attention to technology at all. But, like, there was a moment when venture capital kind of did a pretty decent job of allocation to new ideas and and new technologies, lasted maybe ten years. And for the last fifteen, we've really been living in this kind of, like, hallucination of capital where narrative dominates so much and, like, you're just trying to collect money from people. And, really, the money isn't in building a business that works or building a new technology that enhances people's lives. Like, the money is in creating the narrative, running the fund, collecting the investment, and then cashing out as quickly as possible. And and so, like, to again, I think we're sort of just expanding on each other's ideas here. But for me, one of the visions of the future is, this ability of maybe even relatively small groups of people to form communities online that can direct capital towards projects that actually, like, benefit them and that they then also have a literal stake in as much as that is like a sort of capitalist metaphor. I think there's some value there. Of course, the tricky part is that when you're looking at it on a on a day to day basis, the difference between a, like, the law cannot necessarily see the difference between a community engaged in a collective enterprise, and, like, one guy running an exit scam who's gonna take all the money from, like, the 20 people he attracted. So that really for me, like, that's, like, the the how do you make that distinction and make it in a lasting way that works is one of the real remaining challenges of this thing. Because once you take, like, face to face community out of the equation and stuff can happen online, obviously, we've seen that what it does as much as anything else is, like, create opportunities for fraud and scams, that are, you know, mostly smaller than the macro societal scale fraud and scam that is venture capital over the last ten years. But it's still, you know, it's not the future that I think either of us want. So that's a hair that is very difficult to split. I love hearing that from you because I mean, I'm just being at CoinDesk for so long and seeing that, the increase in venture capital the past few years must have been I mean, yeah, it's crazy. Like, I've been writing about crypto for, like, it's gonna be literally a decade in, like, two months, which is crazy. And the I was talking to somebody as we were getting ready here. Even in, like, the 2018 blow up, like, there was the first hint of, like, full like like, people in the finance industry actually getting interested. That's why I love the subtitle of your book so much is because as much as it, like, sort of you were you're required to think nonlinearly to make sense of it, but, like, how capitalism did destroy crypto. Right? Like, that that it really involved, like, people who were in mainstream finance seeing an opportunity, again, like I said, to create a narrative. Narrative didn't have a lot to do with the reality, frankly. And and then you get this, like, horrific public blow up that damages the, I don't know, reputation of the technology even more than it already happened. So it's very frustrating. So so I'm an optimist, and I think that looking at blockchain from a socialist perspective in in our world is fundamentally optimistic. And I think in order to get to a place where socialist infrastructure is built on the blockchain, there in in our world, it would seem like that would happen in tandem with a world that is also hyper financialized. And so in in and in that world, in that scenario, the critics of crypto really do have a role to play. And so my question is, what do you think needs to happen for more so the crypto capitalists on the on the other side to see that there is an option to use crypto in a different lens, a different way of, allocating capital? Because I I think that there's it's not just that socialists need to build, but it's also that what is being built needs to be torn down as well. So how do you how do you, you know, navigate that? Very, very carefully. I mean, it's a it's a really it's a that's a really hard problem. I think it's kind of like the ultimate, one of the ultimate problems that needs to be solved is, like, I go back to this a lot, but, like, be like, living within capitalism but also working against it is, like, not easy thing to do. And, like, you know, one of the things another kind of idea that, like, Deloze gets into is, like, the how capital, in one hand, deterritorializes things. Like, capital has deterritorialized, like, preexisting social structures that used to be the thing that, like, people relied on for help or support or whatever else. That's been destroyed while at the same time re territorializing or then creating new types of social structures that now we're dependent on. So, like, I kind of just use the the, like, kind of metaphor of, like, a double edged sword that, like, on one end you are you are removing and on the other end, you're always adding. And that's, like, a difficult it's a difficult thing to, like, plan everything out and for it to happen exactly as you intended, I think. But, like, it's something worth doing. It's I don't know if, like, of course yeah. I don't know if you just, like, ask a capitalist, like, hey. Can you please, like, give us money and not expect returns? Like, it's, like, very unlikely they're going to do it a lot of the time. And but I think if you are in a situation where you're lucky enough to, like, convince them to give you a bunch of money, I think it's kind of it's imperative to try to be that, I guess, to find ways to deterritorialize capital itself and and reterritorialize other things. So I mean, like, I think to me, this is kind of, like, also the essence of, like, other concepts, like, dual power or something like that. That there has to be, like, this interaction with the world as it exists and as well as, like, creation of of the new in order to, like, supplant it or to create, you know, to overcome it. And, yeah, so I think I think it's it's very context specific, of course, and, like, what thing is actually that you are trying to pursue. But I think those are it's kind of like the I think, people need to be more comfortable generally in thinking about contradictions or, like, like, acknowledging the contradictions of the things that they may be doing and, like, kind of working through those things, because, like, yeah. The world is full of contradiction and it's, like, not an easy thing to kind of get over. So I think at least being aware of it, if you're the one trying to build this stuff and, like, being honest with yourself is is part of it. Being willing to confront the contradiction Yeah. That I mean and and I think the you use the word build, which I think is really crucial because, you know, another way of I I I'm I'm paraphrasing somebody here. It's gonna escape me. But, like, one very effective way to, like, tear down the existing structure is to just go ahead and build the new thing that's gonna replace it. Right? And so I think that, you know, building and then also, like, being in that process and engage with it in all of its complexity and and sometimes, like, compromise perhaps. I mean, to to give the really, like, basic example, I think we probably have different views about Bitcoin. But personally, I view Bitcoin, whatever else it is, as, like, potentially a useful counterbalance to certain practices, by certain governments. And and so I think that's a pretty decent example in my mind of if you build something that actually works and does something for people, then it it can have effects, that, you know, if you're strategic enough, can can accomplish your ends by actually just offering the alternative. You know? I I have a question if that's cool. I, we've we've talked about venture capitalism and how the legacy models and narratives present an obstacle to thinking about how the tech can be used. But what what I found is some of the loudest voices for socialist concepts are actually venture capitalists. Like, Legion has a podcast called Means of Creation, and has talked about creator owned platforms, universal creator income, like, things that sound on the surface actually very leftist, but it's now VCs that are promoting, like, a a an investment thesis called Let's let's never forget who sold us the, quote, unquote, sharing economy. Like, I I have to jump in here because I have an answer, but I'll I'll restrain myself. Sorry. Well, I also wanted to tie into your point about coalition building. So, like, all politics are about building a coalition. So if if some radical ideas are shared with venture capitalists, do you see a path of building a coalition with VCs somehow? Is there a way to thread that needle? And also just what do you think about the co opting of radical language by people that are at the end of the day just trying to get a return on capital. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a tough problem as well. Like, yeah. It's it's not surprising that language gets co opted, in my in my opinion. Like, it's not it's not something that I think we can really just prevent. Like, tell them, no. You can't do that. Don't do it. That it's not going to happen. Like, Nazism is the cooptation of socialism through a nationalist lens. Like, the reason the Nazi party was created was because, like, socialism was on the rise, and there was a need to kind of, to co opt that movement and turn it into a fascist one. So, like, this I think this is, like, constantly going to happen. Like, there is always this, like, battle back and forth and, like, I don't yeah. It's it's hard because I think if you purely think of things as, like, there are two sides and we're each pushing, like, back and forth, like, between one another and whoever's pushing hardest is, like, gonna get more and more. Like, I don't think that's how it works. It's, like, a lot more multifaceted and, like, you know, there is, like, this, now you probably used some metaphor of, like, Asian philosophy about, like, moving with the water or something like that. Like, finding ways to, kind of, acknowledge that this is a possibility, that this can happen, and how to, I guess, mitigate it because, like, you can't completely defend yourself from, like, all these things. Like, I know of people who are working on specific projects who, like, believe like, who are taking venture capital, for example, and they are trying to find ways in which that, like, kind of reduce their power or their influence over them. Right now, I'm kind of in the phase of, like, waiting to see what they do and how that that pans out. Right now, like, I'm more on the side personally of like, I personally won't wouldn't do a project that accepts venture capital because that's not the thing that I want to do. So, I mean, yeah, to me, it's it's kind of like that's what I mean, neoliberalism over the past several decades has been very good at. It's like, with especially technology and big tech, like, there was a pretty good amount of time where, like, people were thinking, like, Google is this big progressive force that's going to change world for better. Like, I remember people thinking, like, Elon Musk was, like, the leftist billionaire because he's making electric cars or some shit, which is, like, obviously now is, like, very stupid, but that was, like, for a long time that's, like, been happening. And it it had like, I understand, like, kind of people being a bit traumatized or a bit, like, yeah, fed up with that type of thing. It's a very it's a diff like, we're in conditions not of our choosing and, like, it's a difficult game to play. To choose to want to, like, make different to make radically different new ways of being and structures is to accept, like, a pretty big task in the first place. And I think that kind of has to be acknowledged that, like, you know, there are you you can, of course, come up and make decisions on what is a good way or a bad way of doing it. But I think there is, like, a a space that you can play to where people can try different strategies because I don't think we've really figured out what is the way to kind of, like, move forward on all these things. I still think we're really at a point that we're we're in need of, like, experimentation, in this because, I don't know, we we haven't figured out the thing that's, like, rapidly creating the thing that we want, I guess. I I love your point about, you know, sort of alluding to, like, sharing economy rhetoric, for example, as this kind of cooptation of an existing social impulse maybe towards something like socialism. But instead, we get, like, WeWork, which, like, the We was, like, a huge part of their whole marketing thing. And I would just, like, because, this is slightly changing the topic, but I would just kind of, like, issue a call of warning, I guess. Because in my mind, I'm paying attention to obviously, everybody's paying a lot of attention to it right now if you're in tech. But in artificial intelligence, you're now seeing the deployment of, a certain kind of, I would say, perverted socialist rhetoric being deployed around creativity, for example. This idea that an algorithm that ingests other people's work is really just doing the same thing that all artists have done. All all artists steal. All all artists are, like, inspired by each other. We're all one. We're all part of the same thing. But in fact, it's actually, like, this cover for intellectual property theft, in my opinion, on a huge scale. And and I think that, like, to bring it back around in a way that doesn't really match any political orthodoxy that springs to mind. But I think as we see this, like, predatory AI approach to intellectual property, it kind of I have to say as somebody with, you know, socialist or leftist tendencies, it perversely kind of, like, reminds us of the value of property and of individual property and of being able to maybe place some limits on how people use certain things that, you know, certain people created and have actual rights to. You know, and I think that, like, crypto does offer that as a different viewpoint that can be useful in certain strategic circumstances to be able to say, like, no. This belongs to this group or this person. And, like, as in the digital age, it's the capitalists who really have the most reach to come in and and take things that are just kind of in the commons. Right? Like, I mean, we're we're seeing with AI essentially, like, a replay of the the real tragedy of the commons, which is the the partition of it and the appropriation from it into private, hands. And and so, like, thinking about ways to limit that pulling out of the commons, I think is also another potential, very theoretical at this point, application of blockchain through certain rights management things. No. I I really like what you said, but, one of the things that part of this question, to acknowledge, I think, is that oftentimes it's phrased as in how can we prevent the right from co opting us? And, like, that's kind of, like, the framework that's generally used without acknowledging that, like, I don't know, like, Marx was he co opted, like, right wing philosophy. Like, Hegel was not a leftist. Like, David Ricardo and Adam Smith were not leftist, you know, like, they were, like, the they are, like, the liberal philosophers who, like, then ended up greatly influencing the way that we think about capitalism today. And he basically co opted the use of their theorems, of their labor theory of value, and used it and applied it in a different way to create what ultimately became, like, you know, Marxist socialism at least. And so, like, there is, like, there is also a history of the left being able to do that as well that I feel like we we kind of forgotten or, like, don't do very much. So, yeah, I don't know. That's that's something that I would that I would keep in mind as well. It's, of course, like, it it it requires, like, critical thinking in order to do that. It's not like, you know, an easy thing to do at the same time. Hi, Josh. So I know Josh. So before I ask my question, I wanna share with you guys my perspective because it's kind of my framing as to where the question kind of stems from. So we talked about tech being an expression of our political beliefs, so that's one. My belief is competition and coexisting ideologies. I believe in this. I believe in that kind of as a means of global learning. You know, we don't like that ideology because x y z happened. We like ours because, you know, y z x happened, whatever, but more as a means of global learning. The third one, my belief is, you know, you're talking about representational thinking. I think it's kind of the easiest way for people to grasp something, especially, you know, it's just easy. It's mimetic. But also, if we're thinking about, you know, the burden of our information age, we just have everything coming at us all the time. Everything all at once, everywhere sort of situation. So those are the three things I kinda wanna frame before we I jump into my question. So, my thinking is, you know, what do you think about the perspective that, you know, the best direction of in implementing, you know, a socialist blockchain might be kind of, you know, leveraging this current state that we have, you know, and this representational thinking, but maybe doing this with the public commons at scale, like water, air, land. You know, a lot of this, you know, with ideologies and tech, it's all kind of an evangelism game. You know, who can you get to follow you on board in your direction and your ideology? And if we're thinking about bringing socialism to blockchain at scale, you know, what are those largest examples? So my thinking here might be that direction. So, you know, what's your perspective on that? So you're saying, like, what are, like, influences, you mean, that are moving towards a socialism on the blockchain? Is that kind of what you're thinking? Like, my thinking is the best way to evangelize people is to do things with them at scale that have immediate utility. So, an example could be, you know, you know, public utility blockchains that are leveraging data on water that we use, you know, books that we use, things that are generally public, but, you know, just kind of are being leveraged by and and managed by the government. Right. No. I think, this, I don't know, might be an unpopular opinion, but I do think that there is there is, like, a really interesting place to play potentially with, like, partnering with certain governments or, like, local municipalities to use the technology in a way that, like, helps govern already existing, like, shared resources in a particular, locality. I think that would be a very fruitful place and, like, a very immediate thing. Of course, it is sort of like, we haven't found yet, I don't know just I don't know if there are, like, so many I know of a couple of projects that have kind of done this, but some of them are kind of like vaporware a lot of the time. But, yeah, I think being like, I'm not afraid to say that it is interesting to, like, partner with governments to do this type of thing, and should be considered a lot more just because it's already a preexisting institution that has access to, like, all these people and who, like, are reliant on them for a lot of their services. So, no, I think that's, like, one place to play. Like, one of the one of my, like, articles that I wrote, quite a while in, like, beginning of the of the pandemic was, like, how to because in in the beginning of the pandemic, everybody was afraid of being, kicked out of their of their homes and apartments because they were not working, and their landlord was gonna kick them out if they didn't pay rent. And this was happening at, like, a massive scale. And so, like, for me, one of the thing like, thought experiments I had at that point is, like, how to, how to use, like, blockchains to kind of, like, create a different type of relationship with housing, for example. So I just you know, it's called the housing for all token or something like that, where the token is representation of a political right to housing. So, like, you could use the token to, based on, you know, what your, like, particular conditions are at that moment, use your token to purchase a house, or not really purchase a house. It gives you the rights to use the house. So So it's like a different relationship with property that you don't need to buy a house in order to live in it or rent a house to live in it. The housing is kind of held in commons in the public, and you use the token as just a system of allocating, like, who is able to, live in which particular apartment or house because and at the same time, you can, I think, pretty easily programmatically put in, like, if this is a single mom or something like that with, with kids, their their token would give them a right to a house with more rooms for their children to play in versus, I don't know, someone who's, like, a single guy who doesn't need that much space? So I think that's, like that is decommoditizing, housing and relying less on the markets and is something that, like, I think in a world where we aren't so, like, reliant on free markets could be possible or utilizing kind of, like, public housing already existing public housing systems around the world, I think is, like, one thing that I'm that I've thought about that I think is is interesting. How do you think the, like, government welfare structure is like, how how different do you think it is from what you're presenting here? Quite different. I mean, the logic in a lot of welfare systems is very, like, me it's I mean, there's means testing in a way that is, like, quite, like, needlessly punitive, I guess. That a lot of in order to get welfare, especially in The US, like, you have you have the amount of paperwork that you have to give them before you're even able to get anything is, like, pretty monstrous. It's sort of, like, just kinda, like, punishing people for being poor. Like, they're already in a bad situation, and then, like, also you want to, like they have to come in, you know, once a week for, like, a drug test or whatever else, like, that's taking away time for them to be able to, like, care for their families or to, like, find a job or whatever else. I think it's, quite different. It's just, like, yeah. It depends on, like, the logic that's embedded inside of it. Because what is another great fear of mine, actually, is that blockchains do get used by, existing public institutions, but in the logic of the already existing system, that's quite punitive. So, yeah, I hope that answers this question. I guess to start off, I I would say I like what you said about working with existing institutions because you you talk a lot about this parallelism, right, with these new structures. But I'd be curious to know what your thoughts on of crisis playing a role in this shift. If you look at Bitcoin, you know, this can't this was spun out of a crisis, right, a banking crisis. So it was it was a direct response to that. And so, yeah, I'm and and and to to to the sort of original, like, Delusion point, when you're doing this kind of schizo analytic framework, with rhizomes and the systems and and and how how you how how you present them, you know, what kind of prevents not your own personal politics, but politics in general devolving into essentially being being a pirate. Right? Like, you're you're kind of, riding you're building the ship with, you know, the small group, that you've coalesced, and you you guys are just trying to get through the storm. So I I I wanna contrast that with sort of the conventional, you know, notion of socialism as, you know, a movement a real collectivist movement. So So into your to your earlier points about crisis and the role of crisis, I think yeah. What what brought about neoliberalism was the crisis, like, in the seventies of, like, stagflation. Like, that was ultimately, like, the moment when things, like, really shifted. The entire world was, like, under a crisis and people were just, like, looking for new ideas and the one that already existed was neoliberalism. There's already a huge movement. I mean, not a movement, but, like, a lot of money behind this type of thinking of, like, free market fundamentalism that began way before, you know, 1970 whatever it was, whenever it started to to come up. And so, like, I think there is At least the meme is, 1972. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. I mean, like, it's it's a so, like, I think it was, like, Naomi Klein or, like, shock doctrine. I think she wrote a lot about this that, like, in moments of crisis that it's, like, used as a point whenever, like, nobody's kind of, like, able to pay attention or looking for, like, massive changes to happen, a lot of times for the worse, in the benefit of, like, those who already have a lot. And that's how, like, we tend to have really big changes in in the world. It's, like, after these crises, like, so I think considering that, I think that means sort of, acknowledging that there's a need to, like, build collect like, a collective of sorts, a movement of sorts before the crisis happens because by the time the crisis happens, it's too late. Like, you're not you're not ready for what's happening. Like, if there was some sort of greater movement before Occupy Wall Street that was more organized and more, you know, whatever, it probably would have been a lot more successful than than it has been or than than it was, even though it was a well intentioned, you know, people were angry. But it's just, like, constant thing where there is this reaction to to crises happening. So I think that there is just, like, yeah. The need to build infrastructure before before the crisis and to so that you're ready for whenever the crisis does happen because, I mean, if you I mean, just capitalism just, like, guarantees crises. That's, like, par for the course. Yeah. Yeah. So so, like, like, I guess that's kind of why I was going into the whole schizo analysis. Right? Because I wanna kind of pick your brain about what your teleological view is of this. Right? Like, is it that at at the there will be a crisis and then, you know, society sort of remade in this new image? Or is this something to help not promote the status quo, right, but is part of is a mechanism of stability. Right? So so so so, you know, is this socialism, a stabilizing, you know, equalizing force? Or is this socialism something that arises after the crisis, right, when, you know, there are these tools lying around for others to pick up and and and and continue? And so I guess that that's sort of my my my main, yeah, point. Yeah. Because I'm not sure. I mean, I'm not like, I wouldn't be able to make the prediction on that, I guess. I'm more interested to just see, like, I don't know what works, essentially. Like, I don't it and it's, for me, still hard to say how exactly that will that will pan out. It percent. Like, my take on that and and, you know, like, leaving aside an immense amount of complexity, but my entire fascination with, like, Bitcoin specifically and to whatever lesser extent these other systems have have similar features. But this idea that there it it's it it's put dismissively, but it was like a meme that became a collective action that actually built something. And, obviously, it's rooted in a lot of stuff that I think, you know, a lot of us would dispute on fundamental ideological grounds. But, nonetheless, in terms of, you know, speaking to the crisis, like, it really does appear to now be something that can at least have, as you said, not necessarily status quo, but, like, some sort of protective effect. Something that in particular, if you're coming from, like, the neoliberal institutionalist perspective and you believe that, like, the the government is gonna take care of everything, basically, there is now this model for, in a digital way, building an alternative that can be you know, maybe it's not the structure that we would like it to be, but it is nonetheless the structure that can exist past the crisis. And it does exist. You know, it's really there. And and there are obviously, I'm leaving out a ton of complexities. But, and and I think that, like, if you go down to a more granular level and maybe it it's about money and maybe it's about other things, but there are these other structures that you can build outside of the institutions, that that then can be, yeah, there for the crisis or or mitigate the crisis or however you wanna put it. And I think that's one of the, for me, really fascinating things about all of this is that it's a model for exactly, I think, part of what you're talking about with all the hairy downsides and and not quite things that we would wish them to be that that comes with that. Thank you for the book and podcast. I guess I have a couple couple short questions, based on your sense of the ecosystem, sort of demographic questions. Like, what percentage of builders in the space would you say identify as being leftist? And then also, what percentage of builders are women, and what percentage of them are not from the global north? All of them are lower than I would like them to be. It's really hard to say. I mean, I think it has it has changed interestingly over the years. Like, I don't know. I was at ETH Barcelona a couple of weeks ago, and there were, like, a surprising amount of people who at least consider themselves to be on the left that I was able to meet or find, I don't know, just kind of like by accident, I guess. I do remember, like, when I lived I lived in New York for a year when I was supposed to get into stuff, and I would go to, like, these crypto events and it would be, like, I mean, pretty horrible, like, the type of, like, politics a lot of the people were espousing. It's still the case a lot of the time, the politics that people are espousing, no doubt. But there has been, like, a growth in, like, these pockets, I think, of people who are not thinking about it in in that way. So yeah. And I do think I mean, I don't know. My impression talking to women at some of these conferences is that they do think usually, they're ones who come from, like, traditional tech or traditional, finance or something like that. Like, I've heard that they've said that there are more women at crypto things than at the traditional whatever financial tech things that they would normally go to. I can't really confirm that necessarily. And, and I guess there are I don't know. At least at least in Europe, the places that I've been to, I've met quite a few people who come from a lot of the time I mean, there's a lot of people from, like, South America who are building that I've probably met quite a few. But, yeah, ultimately, there needs to be more or there should be more, I think. That's really hard to say. I think but the thing is that, like, a lot of people don't label themselves. They don't say like, they don't want to be labeled to be a certain thing. And I get that. I understand it. I've sort of taken on the horrible duty of labeling myself, who I am and just being honest with it because I feel fairly confident in it and, like, willing to engage in discussion about it, and I don't mind it. But I think a lot of people don't have a coherent politics, generally. And that's not, like, meaning I'm not saying, like, like, they're dumb or whatever because they have that. It's just that we don't it's not like everybody takes the insane amount of time it takes to, like, read whatever big political theory books to then say, like, oh, yes. I am this, and I can defend all of my positions for everything all the time because it's, like, a weird sort of responsibility to put on yourself, you know. So it's it's hard to say. I think a lot there are a lot of people who have, like, progressive tendencies and, like, have kind of, like, good intentions and wanting to create things that are more egalitarian and democratic and whatever else, but that they don't necessarily put it under the bucket of a particular political name is what I find most often. I would just add one thought to the question about demographics, which is, having sort of to echo what your your your informant told you, which is that having kind of been in the traditional tech space and being in some of those spaces, and then kind of looking at what's happening in crypto. I mean, just the the sheer the simple fact that it is set up in a way where, you know, political borders don't have that much influence, does have a genuine impact. And there are major projects, that come from absolutely every corner of the world. I mean, an example that I try out a lot of the time is, I don't know if people know this, but the team that built Etherscan is based in, I believe Malaysia or Indonesia. I might be getting that slightly wrong. But that's like a key clutch part of the entire ecosystem, built by people way outside of, like, the Silicon Valley venture capital sphere. And there are a lot of examples of that. And and so I you know, not to, like, try and simplify it into, like, percentages or whatever, but, like, there really is some, like, expansiveness to the space and the people who are involved that I think can be for very material. Speaking of, like, let's be materialist about it. Right? Like, for material reasons in terms of the way that technology is set up, that does have, an impact in opening doors. And you can really see it if you're out there kind of interacting with people in the space. Yeah. I have to agree with that. That tends to be missed by a lot of critics. I think that seems like a good stopping point. I think we'll all many of us will be hanging around for a little while longer here. So Yeah. I'll be fine. If you wanna chat with Josh, he's here. And I do you have books for sale? If you've bought, like, the $30 ticket, then I will sign a book for you and give it to you. I have the box down right there. We can do that right now, more or less. But yeah. And then if you if you didn't, I don't know. If you have $20, I'll give you a book. And then, just for the purpose of the recording, if you wanna follow me, I'm on Twitter at at david c morris. And is there anything you wanna kinda plug, on the way out here? No. Please buy the book. I guess, yeah, you have one thing. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Josh Davila, for, for writing the book, for coming out and doing this. It's been great, and we'll we'll be hanging out. So thanks. Oh, thanks so much.",
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            "summaries": null,
            "paragraphs": {
              "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Hey, everyone. This podcast episode is coming out on 08/08/2023, AKA the official publishing date for my book, Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It. What you're about to listen to is a recording of the book launch events in New York City, which took place July 23 at the MetaLabel office. As you'll hopefully hear, it was a fun event and was hosted by David z Morris, the chief insights columnist at CoinDesk. I first give a short presentation about the structure of the book, and then he interviews me and facilitates a q and a with the audience.\n\nAfterwards was a book signing and hang out with food and drinks. In the show notes, be sure to check out the Linktree where I've listed out several different places where you can order the book in different countries and regions, so be sure to check it out if you haven't ordered a copy yet. I will also be continuing my book tour as I'll be in Dallas, Texas August 10 at Who's Books at 7PM, as well as Medifest in Pula, Croatia, the Crypto Commons gathering in Austria, and in Berlin in mid September, selling and signing books if you happen to be going to any of those places. And as well, I'd like to give a very big thank you to everyone who supported me over the past years financially via Patreon or the TBS subscription NFT, who without, I would not have been able to get this far, no doubt. There's still a lot more I'm wanting to do related to the book, so be on the lookout for that through the newsletter, CryptoLafda's Discord community, and the other usual places where you can keep up with me.\n\nAlright, and with that, I hope you enjoy the recording from the Gold Launch Event.\n\nSpeaker 1: That the business press is the only place that you will actually be told the truth, and I will tell you that's mostly true. And, I also because it might be of interest to y'all, I have a a PhD that I earned a few years ago in the history of technology, which is kind of what led me to blockchain. And it is my privilege tonight to introduce Josh Davila, author of the new book Blockchain Radicals, and he'll tell you the subtitle because I forgot to write that part down. Josh is a technology theorist and writer who, much like the book that he's written, bridges a series of contradictions. He, has been active in in, left wing politics and political theory.\n\nHe also has for a few years now been a consultant on blockchain technology applications to businesses in Europe. I will leave it to him to reconcile the two wolves inside of him. But what's most important about Josh is that for quite a few years now, he has been building a community of leftist and progressives. I use that word cautiously, who also happen to be interested in cryptocurrency and blockchain. He first tweeted pseudonymously as the blockchain socialist probably about two, three years ago, and, has now come out of the shadows to publish this book with Repeater.\n\nJosh is here with a preview of the book or a presentation from the book that will, be about fifteen or twenty minutes. Then he and I will have a one on one conversation for twenty or thirty minutes, and then we'll reserve the the balance of time. So plenty of time for questions from the audience, perhaps an informal discussion. Obviously, pretty small event, so we'll keep things loose. But everybody, please welcome Josh Davila to metal label.\n\nSpeaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. So, yeah. Hi. I'm Josh.\n\nI wrote a book called Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It. It came out of sort of the, I guess, synthesizing a lot of the work that I've been doing over the past three years of the blog and podcast, kind of like exploring these spaces and niches and research that people were doing that I felt like was not getting, like, much attention to. And, like, more specifically, usually having related to do some sort of, like, more left leaning or progressive kind of view of the use of technology. So, yeah. So about me, in case you need anything more, my name is Josh.\n\nI wrote, or I have been working in blockchain for about five years. I started a blog podcast around three years ago. I have a project called Bread Chain Cooperative that I've been working on for a while as well to kind of synthesize and put into practice a lot of things that I've been learning and experimenting with. I'm also filming a documentary on crypto that's taking a little bit longer than I thought it would take. And, yeah, I've been most recently, I guess, in the podcast focusing on, giving critique on the network state, a book by Balaji, who's a a tech VC think boy.\n\nAnd, yeah, and that's, like, the logo that I've been using on social media and such, for a while. So with so what I want to do with this presentation is just kind of give you a taste of kind of, like, the overarching framework and, like, structure of the book. And so what kind of when I was asked to write the book, I kind of, didn't I wasn't, like, given a thing to write about. There was, like, I'll just write something, like, about the left and, like, blockchain stuff. Like, write a little, like, pamphlet or something.\n\nBut it ended up becoming kind of, like, a bit more of that. And that was after I I kind of like made this connection with the work of Gilles Deleuze, who's a French post Marxist thinker. And the sort of thing that he's really well known for is or one of the things, besides being very difficult to read, is what's called the critique of representational thinking. So what he says is that oftentimes, in order to understand new things, we use models of the old and sort of impose on it in order to try and, think about how it can work and, like, to make predictions about it and such. And he's saying this is wrong and bad, and we shouldn't be thinking this way.\n\nExample of this would be something like the drum machine I like to use. So the drum machine was, piece of technology that was created in order to allow people to create, or to be able to play music without needing a drummer with a drum set. So you can get the machine, you buy it, you press the buttons, and then it'll play the beats that the drummer was supposed to play, but he couldn't make it to practice. So in this kind of, like, conceptual model of what the drum machine was meant to do, it was a representation of a drummer with a drum set. That means it was a lesser version.\n\nSo, like, a lot of, like, platonic, philosophy, like, focuses around, like, the ideal forms of things. And so he describes this as thinking like a tree, that you have, like, the trunk, which is, like, the ideal representation of whatever it is. For example, a drummer with a drum set. And then you have the things kind of going around it that are representations of it, but lesser than the ideal form. And so Deleuze is obsessed with potatoes because potatoes have what's called a rhizomatic, structure to their roots.\n\nSo do, like, mycelial networks of mushrooms, but essentially, it describes a shape that doesn't have a clear center to it, that it's kind of, like, overlapping and has different it's kinda like a hierarchical structure, different centers. And so, kind of the thing that I connected with, the book and with crypto was that this type of thinking is endemic in crypto, since basically the start of it. You know, Bitcoin was created as a peer to peer electronic cash system. That was its intention. That was kinda like the representation.\n\nThat was a model that, you know, Satoshi or and whoever they are, sort of made Bitcoin to be. And inside was infused, you know, this narrative of being similar to gold and, this kind of metaphor or this model of using, Bitcoin as a, kind of extension of, like, thinking that the gold standard was the best form of monetary system. I was thinking about Bitcoin as digital gold. And so since there had already been sort of this existing political group of of people who we call them gold bugs or people who believe this. It was like an easy kind of, like, way to get a lot of people who are already connected, believing in this one thing that thinks should exist and willing to pay money for it, especially.\n\nThey got became attracted to Bitcoin. So that's, like, kind of, like, the beginning of it. You can also if you go through, just, like, a ton of things, code is law. So equating code and law together, decentralized finance. It's kind of like this thing to, like, let's do finance but decentralized.\n\nThe network state is, you know, also something. DAOs used to be called decentralized autonomous corporations. So, like, the the way that we kind of, like, conceptualize these things was already modeled on things that already existed and that had certain, implications to them. This is a, endemic. So this is I like I like this quote from Alfred Kraszewski that I think, kinda goes well with this, that the map is not the territory.\n\nThe word is not the thing it describes. Whenever the map is confused with the territory, a semantic disturbance is set up in the organism. The disturbance continues until the limitation of the map is recognized. Just saying that, this kind of representational thinking or the this metaphorical thinking in certain ways, like, creates a map and imposes a map on the territory, which is the thing that actually exists. And, the second quote that I really like is that, all models are wrong, but some are useful.\n\nSo, you know, it's nice to have a map of, you know, Peru whenever you're in Peru. It's nice if you need to, like, find out where you need to go, you're following the streets or whatever, but the map of Peru is not the same as Peru. We and we shouldn't, like, confuse those things together. And so I think in crypto, we have many different types of maps that oftentimes people try to impose upon what it is in order to try to understand it better, but also as well in order to attract a clientele and in order to get people to separate them from their money, essentially, to buy their product and to buy their tokens or whatever else because it, you know, it adheres to an already preexisting, model of way that people think. And I think this is, like, a very, like, political choice.\n\nSo, like, I like the work of of Gramsci, and he has this concept called cultural hegemony that oftentimes, you know, this this was used to explain that, social control structures of society, that the working class, kind of gets imposed this worldview by the upper classes as a way to, like, impose a certain way of thinking about the world and understanding of the world. Like, the map of our world is one that was modeled after those who have the power in order to model that world. And they impose that through structures, through institutions, and whatever else. And so in the book, kind of what I went through and applied this to cryptocurrency was, I kind of listed out the most common, representational models that are used in the cryptocurrency world, and I've divided the book into three sections. Section one is crypto as money, section two is crypto as finance, and section three as is crypto as coordination.\n\nSo these are kind of, like, the three ways that I've seen just, like, in my time kind of keeping track with it, how it's kind of evolved more. In the beginning, before Ethereum, for example, like, money was kind of, like, the the main thing that people were, like, trying to tackle and, like, create making Bitcoin, like, this monetary system. Then with the advent of smart contracts, like, financial infrastructure became to be more of a thing that people wanted to emulate. And then I think more recently, you have people who are kind of, like, I think there's been a some amount of self reflection in the crypto world, like, oh, that we can't be financializing everything, and it's not so fun to be only about, like, trading digital beans with one another. And so what you're seeing is kind of, like, this expansion of the of the, like, the representational model.\n\nMoney and finance could be thought of as different coordination mechanisms. And I think part of this is just, like, this evolution of people being like, oh, wait. That's not what it is. Oh, wait. That's not what it is.\n\nIt's always something bigger and bigger because we're exploring more and more of the territory as time goes on and people use it. And then through all of that, in the end, I try to lay out a new concept for thinking about technology that I call techno probabilism that's meant to kind of push back against the idea of techno determinism or, like, the idea that technology is, like, the only thing that determines reality, and try to provide some more context to that question and problem about, you know, structure and agency and whether or not we have the ability to change and influence the way that we think about technology. And so yeah. So, like, this this kind of this is kind of, like, how I, you know, horribly kinda want to represent, what this kinda looks like. You have the terrain of, like, all the things that are that are possible, which is, like, kind of, like, unknown or, like, impossible to really know fully completely because we can't do it all all at once, but that the kind of the the main sort of mental model representation that we've been thinking about has sort of expanded more and more to to cover more of the terrain, but I think a lot of that terrain has still not been covered probably.\n\nAnd that's kind of, like, the things that I'm interested in or want to point out a little bit more sometimes. And I think this is, like, important, and it's kind of, like, a repetition of, again, like, what has happened over the Internet. The Internet was one thing at one point. I really don't like the whole, like, Web one, Web two, Web three type of narrative, but it is, like, safe to say that the Internet looks a lot different now than it did a long time ago. And we can also see that, like, the Internet is not forever.\n\nSo the Internet has kind of evolved and adapted and changed based on the conditions and what has been, become, like, tooling available for different types of websites and, content over the Internet. And so yeah. So one of the things I I really like David's tweets a while back, that I think was really, like, really resonated with me as far as how to kind of I think we should be rethinking these types of things is to just build things more collectively. I think, one of the kind of main, maps or models of the world that I think we are constantly imposed upon is one, like, that is very individualistic, one that is very isolated and alienated. And so one of the things with, you know, for all its flaws, blockchain and cryptocurrencies, it does provide, I think, for a lot of people this, like, sliver of hope that, like, maybe we can create more collective ways of building things together.\n\nEven though a lot of people may not be doing that or thinking about it that way, I think that this is something that is, like, very could be very, very fruitful as far as our relationship to, the Internet and technology because I think, like, everybody kind of hates their relationship with the Internet. I think everyone's kind of, like, ambivalent towards it at this point for, for good reason. But I think we also are reliant on it in certain ways that we would not want to give up because we like to have connection with people that are on the other side of the world or whatever else. That is a nice thing that we can do as humans. And so, yeah, with the book, I got a bunch of really nice quotes from people, including Vitalik, Nick Cernick, Primavera Di Filippi, and a bunch of other people that were really, influential for me when I was, writing and, like, doing my podcast.\n\nAnd I found out that doing a podcast was a really nice way to network with people, so I was lucky to be able to have connections with these guys. And yeah. So the book comes out August 8, but if you ordered, a book online with a book event, then you get a book here a little bit earlier than, the launch event or than the official launch. But, yeah, I think that's it. There we go.\n\nSpeaker 1: Awesome. So I think we can probably just grab the opposite into the couch here if you want.\n\nSpeaker 2: That should\n\nSpeaker 1: So you the the first question I wanted to ask is kind of one of the big I we're trying to limit ourselves to big questions here so that we can get to everything. But the, the the big one that you alluded to with that nice circle graph is that, crypto is sort of fundamentally, especially if you understand the security model of whether you're talking about proof of work or proof of stake, there is like a monetization aspect that is truly fundamental to the way a lot of these things work. And so I I would just would love you to expand a little bit on that graph and kind of how it actually works in a practical sense to expand out from that core of money to something that is more abstractly about coordination in a general way and and perhaps in a less individualistic way while building on that platform that it it is really about money or something very much resembling money?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. So I think the I mean, I would not personally characterize something like Ethereum or Bitcoin as money at all or, like, any really cryptocurrency as money, just, like, comparing it to, like, what the actual definition is. The, like, thing that I think is interesting when it comes to cryptocurrency and relationship to money is more the, like, the governance of not money, but, like, currencies or tokens, which maybe you can put money as, like, you know, one aspect or, like, one one one type. And so, like, I like like, I think of ether ether, for example, or Bitcoin or really any of these as first and foremost as, like, kind of vouchers for using the network. And, yes, it's monetized because you have to buy it most of the time.\n\nThat's, like, the 99% of people, that's how they interact with it, that they buy it first. And so it has, like, a clear price. It's a kind of, a kind of commodity. And I think that's kind of, you know, in the book I go through as well, like, there are a lot of, properties of these tokens that mimic things about money, and people will kind of, like, cling on to those things and say, it's money because it can do this. Like, I can send it to someone, therefore, it's money.\n\nBut it's kind of, like, I mean yeah. I don't know. They haven't spent the time to kind of, like, understand what, the kind of, like, social, institution that money kind of, inhibits. And what I find interesting for me personally is, like I said, more about on the governance side. Right now, kind of the monetary system is a very, like, technocratic institution.\n\nLike, there is no kind of, like, democratic input for what it is. There is, like, a certain imperative of, like, keeping liquidity in markets or something like that as being, like, the one thing that they need to do, and this has, like, a lot of downstream effects to to our situation now. And so I think, yeah, thinking about ways and these examples of, different forms of money is more interesting to me than, like, trying to, like like, the gold standard type of narrative about money is one that thinks of money as, like, a type of commodity or, like, a natural commodity that has, like, intrinsic value. I know you know this a lot because you've studied gold bugs before, which is just, like, a very, it's a shallow way of understanding money and how it works and not thinking of it instead as, like, this kind of social institution.\n\nSpeaker 1: For the for the for the heads out there, it's a it's a very great example of reification. Yeah. Oh, no. I mean, that I think I\n\nSpeaker 2: think that's basically it. So, like, I'm more interested in these, like, experiments of, like, basically, democratic forms of monetary system.\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, so so can we, like, look at specifics if we look at kind of, historical examples of, you know, the things that come to mind for me, and I know you write about them in the book, include, like, co ops, community currencies. I'm sure there are other that I'm that I'm forgetting, but these kind of, like, attempts to build alternative structures, within what we already have and kind of what is it that, you know, crypto or blockchain brings to the table that, for example, would make those experiments, more viable than they have been in kind of, like, the analog era or or, you know, obviously, we can't predict the future and your your rhizome metaphor is perfect. But, you know, what are maybe some potential new forms of similar collective organizing efforts?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think that's, like, like, for me, mutual credit is a very interesting system to think about. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: And you have a great analysis of an example in the book.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So focus on circles UBI, which is based in Berlin, for that one. But, like yeah. So, like, you know, all models are wrong, but some are useful.\n\nI think there, are kind of what has happened is kinda like the hegemonic models of money, of finance are the things that generally people are wanting to build in the cryptocurrency world because that's, like, that's, the quickest way to making money, and that's, like, the imperative of capital if you're gonna invest in a business. There's, like, a lot of, like, you know, neoliberal brain in the cryptocurrency world of, like, that's basically in order to change the world, you have to make a start up, that makes money itself and takes venture capital and whatever else. But when it comes to money, you know, yeah, I think taking I think it's become an interesting place of experimentation where you can take other types of models that have not been able to get the same amount of traction as a dominant one because it is an alternative space where people are trying to experiment and filled with people who are very skeptical of the current institutions and want to create something different, I think it makes, like, a fruitful space. So, like, I really liked a recent article from Brett Scott, who's, like, a a money researcher, where he kinda talks about, the synthesis, like, a he like, kinda like a crude dialectical synthesis of, like, the, monetary, like, crypto token world or commodity money, thinking of crypto world with kinda, like, the more alternative, like, historically more progressive, kind of, monetary and currency experimentation space with community currencies, and so forth.\n\nAnd kinda, like, mixing those two together to create something where we use the models of these kind of alternative currency and community currency spaces, but up get the affordances of the technology as well. So, like, I think for him, it's a lot to do with scale. I think the kind of the one of the critiques of a lot of these kind of localized attempts at doing these is that they oftentimes don't last too long or they're reliant on, like, a particular person who spends a lot of time administering the system. Mhmm. I think, like, you know, being able to automate so that you're not reliant on this type of thing, but people can just use it is something that's powerful.\n\nAnd being able to create a space where people can kind of collectively govern is something else that's that's very\n\nSpeaker 1: And I would add to that list to, like, transparency also would be, I think, a pretty big one. Because I think of, you know, probably a lot of people are familiar with, Berkshares, the the probably the most successful community currency, I would say. But I always think, like, you know, how do you actually know that they're not just, like, printing it? You know? So so that's one very small brain way of looking at it.\n\nSo, there's the kind of, like, structure of the technology, and there are certain biases that one might think at least were were kinda baked in there. And then there's kind of the history of the technology, which is very specific and we know. And, you know, going back to, like, the nineteen nineties and, the cypherpunks, aka crypto anarchists, is another term that sometimes apply to the same group who I have quite a quite a lot of sympathy to and are kind of privacy focused and really foresaw some of the issues I think that we're now really facing with the Internet. But that did sort of during especially the the early years of Bitcoin adoption kind of fed into some very specifically, libertarian, like, people who are obsessed with Ludwig von Mises and and Murray Rothbard. And that really became very strongly identified with Bitcoin, and there were even books written about it.\n\nAnd so I'm kind of curious for, your read of, I guess, the relationship between politics and technology both coming in and going out in the sense of, is the politics that that fed into this technology determinative of of what it's good for, you know? And and if, like, if not, where does that lack of determination come from?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's like it's not deterministic, but it is, like, getting way ahead of the game, if that makes sense. Like, like, the unfortunate, like, truth about Bitcoin, I think, for for me is that it was successful as a technological implementation of a particular politics, and it, like, it is playing out that politics in its structure and in the way that people are interacting with it. And so yeah. I mean, I don't think, like, that determines the entirety of what will happen is kind of the the point that that that I'm on.\n\nIt's, like, a more difficult job, of course, after the fact, but it's something that I think is worthwhile kind of pursuing. So, like, I kind of like I have, like, a couple of influence influences, I think, with this. Like, one, I really like, Donna Haraway's, Cyborg Manifesto. She's, like, a feminist, writer, and she talks about how, basically, like, technology is not, or say, like, faithful to its creators or to its parents oftentimes, that you can take it and use it for something else, which is, like, what hap if you I don't know. You did a PhD in history of technology.\n\nI imagine so many things that were built for one thing ended up, like, not being the thing that it was used for. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Your example of the drum machine was really good. I like that.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. So I think this is sometimes lost. Like, when it comes to crypto for me, this is, like, the, like, I I very crudely try to separate, people, one side as, like, the hype men, the crypto hype men, and the other side as, like, the critic, the hype men being, like, this is gonna change the world. Do it. Let's go.\n\nAnd then the other one being, like, this is all stupid. Don't do it. And stay away from it. And I guess I'm trying to use, like, you know, thinking about models and maps as, like, a way to be nuanced in between these two kind of, like, very hardcore positions, I feel, so that we can find the the cracks in both the cracks in the ways that, like, the hype men are explaining it, because I feel that the critics, they kind of, like, are reacting to just the way that hype men kind of explain it to them. And then you kind of, like, lose out on a lot of, like, potentially, like, very, very interesting things and, like, radical potential for the use of of this stuff.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, that that's a very interesting way that you put it in terms of, like, the the people who are motivated to profit from something often explain it. They're motivated to explain it in the dumbest possible way. And then the the people who are, you know, opposed to it are responding to that already reductive framing. And and I I love that as a I'm sorry.\n\nGo ahead. No. Go ahead. Well, I was gonna transition.\n\nSpeaker 2: I I I was gonna agree. Yes. Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: So, so I I love that as kind of like a like a way of analyzing the dialectic. I mean, I would kind of maybe offer, like, two other categories that can go alongside, which are, like, the more nuanced categories of, like, maybe, like, true believers, probably including some people in this room who are, like, actually trying to build something and are, you know, maybe not trying to make a million dollars as their primary goal. And then I would say there's also a class of critics that is at themselves quite nuanced, paying attention to specific things. And and, you know, maybe they're skeptics of the entire thing, but they're actually, like, focusing in on here's how it's going to fail. But but I'm most interested in some, like, psychological way in the, the the sort of more knee jerk critics that you're talking about.\n\nPeople and and often, it seems like at various moments, you know, obviously, like, media sort of follows a cycle. So at particular moments, there is definitely a a surplus of people saying, like, all of this is fraud. Like, the like, crypto has nothing to offer. Like, none of this means anything. And it often, you know, you're you're Delusian.\n\nI'm, like, most fundamentally a Freudian. And so when I look at things like this, I feel like there's a sort of, like, reaction construction happening of, like so I guess the question is, like, in your read and this does tend to be sort of centrist liberals, I think. And and maybe to kind of beg beg the question a bit, institutionalists, who are most reactive against crypto in this, like, everything all of it is fake way. So I'm curious kind of what your take is on that aspect of of the dialogue. Like, where is that coming from where, especially, you know, often it's people who haven't necessarily looked at the technology very closely or thinking from a very US centric perspective.\n\nLike, where but where does that, like, sort of knee jerk I I I don't mean reactionary in the same sense, but, like, sort of reactionary, response to crypto come from in in in your opinion?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Maybe, like, reactive is, it would be the right ones. But yeah. No. I think, like, I think Elizabeth Warren is, like, the obvious kind of, like, person\n\nSpeaker 3: in\n\nSpeaker 2: in all of this. The banking reformer. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, like, a very I think it's a world view about, like, I mean, just a lot of trust in the status quo and in institutions themselves and that, like, it's a very much, like, we can fix it from the inside belief, which, I mean, in some cases, maybe you can and, you know, go for it. But I think it's this kind of very limiting view of kind of like only thinking of politics as, like, electoralism, I think, is is a big aspect of it.\n\nLike, thinking of being presented with the the system and, like, a map of the system usually being that being, like, the main institutions for electoralism is a big is a big one.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Speaking of mistaking the map for the territory. Right?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. And so, like, I think that there is this like, people and it's, a difficult thing, I think, for a lot of people to wrap their heads around that, like, to think outside of these institutions in ways of, like in order to create influence or power, like, doesn't have to go through these institutional pathways. And that may be scary for some to do that, and it may I mean, there's just a lot of, of course, brainwashing is the right way word, but, like, thinking that anybody who does try to do that is, like, some crazy anarchist who wants to destroy the world and, you know, is it, like, Joker or something like that? But there's, like, plenty of, like, instances in history where that was the way that people changed the world and interacted with it. You know?\n\nLike, I think, you know, the way that democracy has manifested itself today, especially just, like, in The US and in Europe and as well in the West, it is kind of like a, democracy has become a kind of, like, justification machine for the status quo That, like, oh, you, you know, you elected you tried and you voted really hard, but sorry. You can't do anything about it. Next time, wait another four or five years. And I don't know. I think I think it has a lot to do with, yeah, thinking thinking in in this type of map of the world, I guess.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So sort of relevant to that, and and maybe sort of to conclude on a totally personal curiosity kind of note, you know, I, as I said, I have a lot of empathy for the viewpoints of, like, crypto anarchists, even to a certain extent, radical libertarians, for the for the very reason that you're you're outlining that there is this, like, institutionalist situation that we find ourselves in, I guess. And I guess my question would be more to your more to the socialism side of it than the than the blockchain side. But, you know, given that this comes out of such a libertarian anarchist milieu, leaving the technology to one side for a second, like, is there, you know, is there an overlap in that Venn diagram? Is there, like, strategic common ground to be found, or or maybe not strategic, maybe just kind of, like, you know, mental creative common ground to be found between, you know, people who, want to end the fed and and people who, like, you know, just want socialized health care, you know?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Sure. I mean, I think, I think, yes, there is. It's a very complex game at the same time. Like, like, for me, I like to understand politics as, like, like, all politics is a, is coalition politics that, like, it's usually, I mean, unless you have, like, real, like, a huge base that you're able to mobilize in order to make change where you have, like, the majority of the population.\n\nUsually, if you have that, it's because you have a coalition of different groups. Like, you you usually, you can't you can't make the change that you want to do without it. And I don't know. I think of, like, you know, I feel like, Yanis Varoufakis was the minister of finance in Greece during, like, the Greek, crisis. And, like, he was giving, you know I mean, he's a Marxist giving, like, recommendations for policy on what to do, like, to fight against, like, the austerity being posed by the ECB and and everyone else.\n\nAnd, like, like, libertarians loved him. You know, like, American libertarians loved Yanis Varoufakis because, like, they were actually find common ground. Yeah. It's like I'm reading a book right now. Like, they were able to find common ground on kind of, like, their hatred for certain types of financial or, like, the ways in which certain financial institutions have been playing the game because libertarians have this certain, I don't know, like, fairness in financial markets as, like, a as, like, a big thing.\n\nAnd so, like, I think there is there's a space to play in there. Of course, it's just, like, a very it's a complex one, and it's a one that requires politics. Like, it requires, like, having, you know, relationships with people that you, like, don't necessarily agree with on everything. Because to find enough people who agree with you on everything is just, like, to me a silly game to play. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 1: Thank you. Very enlightening. So so I think we can start opening it up, to just a broader dialogue, and I'll try and keep things horizontal. But do do are there is there anybody in the audience who has a a question? Go for it.\n\nSpeaker 4: So thanks for the talk. The book seems really interesting. I've been following you for a little bit. So as somebody who's been in, like, the kind of, like, left protect space, I've seen that, as has kind of been pointed out that there's this, almost resistance against tech being integrated tech movements being integrated into, movements, as we pointed out, into institutional spaces, into institutional politics. And it seems like the biggest base would be people, that Jujak called the liberal communist, the the corporate redistributors who are, you know, early adopters of technology, like Bill Gates.\n\nRight? And that, you know, he's really into, like, nano reactors and this type of thing. Right? Right? But it But in my experience, people like Nick Chernick and, left accelerationists and these types of people have had a really hard time moving past, technocratic speak and also integration of the culture.\n\nAnd that the movements, you know, around these things has largely, like, look at the Bernie Sanders movement, been against really basic technologies like nuclear. So I'm just curious if there's a strategy, and what kind of politics would be connected to that strategy of, you know, of a socialism that is connected to people as opposed to kind of like a, you know, a PMC type of politics.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I I agree with the criticism. I think it's it's a tough one, but, ultimately, the thing that does probably need to happen is just, like, engaging with the communities that you are wanting to, like, build the technology for the most. Like, I mean, it's pretty common, you know, even, I don't know. I've done I've done a lot of, like, project, you know, technological project management or something, like, in corporate spaces.\n\nAnd even they, like, you know, you you do, like, surveys or, like, whatever. You understand, like, the thing they're trying to do. Like, it's a basic thing in, like, anthropology that you, like, you know, find identify, like, the group of people that you want to identify and, like, understand, like, use use that type of framework to understand, like, maybe the problems that they're facing and whatever else. A big also, I think one of the biggest obstacles though is that, like, technical education is very low in, like, a lot of the world that we don't like, it's not common knowledge how the Internet works, but everybody is using it all the time. But nobody is just like it's just like a little magic box that, like, you know, gives you the the text or whatever that that you want to see that your friend sent you.\n\nAnd this and I think this has been on purpose. Like, it's been created to be this, like, almost seemingly that it requires, like, years of intense study in order to understand, like, the basic things of how this stuff works, when it ever like, it like, some, like, some type of, like, I guess, reform, you can call it, that I think would be interesting to have. I think that would change this a lot is is if, you know, as, you know, as part of the education system, you, like, understood you are taught, like, how these things work. And that's one thing that I think the kinda like the left accelerationists and, like, other types of, I guess, left wing movements that I've tried to be more open to the use of, like, digital technologies have kind of kind of misses that they do use a lot of, like they tend to recreate them, like, the technical jargon that they're, like you know, because they're trying to, like they're understanding the the technology on the tech the original creators technologists, like, their own turf, I think. And we're not really doing much of an effort to make it, like, you know, a mass education program and how this shit works and and why it needs to be changed.\n\nAnd, like like, I think there is this kind of, like, paternalism of, like, well, we can't really they can't understand it because it's too difficult or something like that, whatever. I think, if I don't know. I've just found that if you sit someone down and they're willing to learn and want to participate or whatever else, they are willing to to learn about it, and and that can go a long way in, like, like, creating them the framework for how they, interact with their with their apps or whatever else. So, yeah, there's I've said a couple of things there.\n\nSpeaker 1: I mean, I can't speak to I would I would add a little bit to that, which is I can't speak to the specific, sort of portions of the movement that you're talking about. But, like, on top of the, the actual technical education, I think there is still a ton of room to grow in, you know, what you're basically doing, which is, you know, critical analysis of technology that is kind of socially informed and actually is able to think through the implications of something. I mean, and and this is where, you know, you can't necessarily teach the entire package at a social level. But also, like, we're we're dealing with it on both sides because you also have the technocrats themselves actively engaged in the process of dismantling an education system that is oriented towards inculcating any kind of critical, like, awareness into people.\n\nSpeaker 4: Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. I I'll just wrap this up. But, no.\n\nYeah. Thank you. Both of these are really great answers. I think too, like, I think one of the things that like, if we look at, like, the early Maoist movements I'm not a fan of Mao, but I do like some of the strategies, of mutual aid. Right?\n\nPeople didn't understand the politics, but when their life was benefited from the actual act of being benefited from a technology, they or political technology, in this case, that they maybe didn't understand. Maybe that could be a micro politics that you could push for that would, you know, make meaningful change in real people's lives. And I don't think they have to understand, you know, quantum computers or whatever you're using to make this technology real. So\n\nSpeaker 1: other questions?\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. Sure. So this might be an unfair question to ask you. I'm gonna ask you it anyhow. But I think it's probably impossible to predict, but I'm just kinda curious what your view is on what, like, what do you think, like, the the sort of, like, socialist endgame is for incorporating blockchain technology into society?\n\nSo, like, let's fast forward ten, twenty five, fifty, hundred years, however long. All the breaks go in the direction of the left, where are we? Are we still living in a society, like, similar today, but the blockchain is occasionally used for, mutual aid and co ops, or is it, like, all of society full on on the blockchain or, like, I'm just On chain socialism. Yeah. On chain gay communist socialism or whatever.\n\nYes. I'm just kinda curious, like, what your, what your projection is assuming the best.\n\nSpeaker 2: I I mean, like, for me, it's, I to be this like, when it comes to socialism, like, we could have had socialism without blockchain for sure. Like, I think that can exist. Like, I don't think it's like we need to have, like, the block. We need to have a cryptocurrency to make socialism. Like, I think that's kinda like a silly idea.\n\nOr maybe not like socialism per se,\n\nSpeaker 3: but just sort of like it it all moves in the direction of sort of like leftist, whatever.\n\nSpeaker 2: As far as you mean, like, starting from now, like, what would be the influence or what would what would ideally would like to see happen?\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. Maybe framing it less in the the context of, like, socialism or leftism, but just, like, if the the breaks all move in the direction that you'd like it to move into Alright. In fifty, hundred, however many years. Like, what do you what do you sort of view as the end game?\n\nSpeaker 2: I mean, the end game is socialism. But, I think that, I don't know. One time, I wrote, like, a big list of, like, things that I wish existed that that people could, could do. But I mean, I think it's more about, like, because for me, I think, like, we're I really hate saying this, but, like, we're really early that, because there hasn't been very much, like, experimentation with, like, specifically this technology, with a, you know, progressive lens on it or a socialist lens on it. So and I think part of that I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that.\n\nOne is because of all the libertarians in this space. Like, socialists generally rejecting it in a lot of ways, socialists never having money, and, like, you know, a lot of these types of things that have been, like, huge obstacles to to making that happen. But, I mean, ideally, I would love to see just, like I mean, the biggest thing is, like, a whole lot less reliance on venture capital and, like, the idea of capital in itself, generally. Like, to me, like, a post capitalism, it means that we are less reliant on capital as, like, a social institution for how we kind of reproduce ourselves and, like, the things in the world, which means that, you know, people are just not doing things solely for, like, the profit motive. And that's a really hard problem to solve because, like, cryptocurrencies are so monetized, and, like, the main reason, like, 90% of people buy it generally is to speculate and to make money off of it.\n\nSo it's, like, it's it's difficult. But I think, like and and there is, I think, another problem to solve as well is that, like, the consensus mechanisms of basically every blockchain is based on a profit motive. Like, economic incentivization is just, like, profit. It's like we're reliant. So, like, I think what why blockchains, work is because they comply with kind of, like, the the expectations of capitalism of, like, you are accumulating capital and that the world is moving forward because of that.\n\nAgain, another very difficult problem, to solve, like, whether or not we need, like, the consensus mechanism should be changed to something that doesn't allow that, but also still have the same kind of safety and security guarantees that it that it gives us. Maybe that means that it's, like, like, not a blockchain and is, like, some other type of distributed ledger. Could be. I think just blockchains are the ones that the the, like, kind of infrastructure that has become the most popular and the most, like, interesting people developing on it, and that's why, like, I spend so much time looking at it and thinking about it. But I do think that there are there is, like, a, like, a non insignificant chance that, like, we need to rethink, like, blockchains themselves, and maybe that means that they are not blockchains anymore, and, you know, are able to do the things that they do without necessarily relying on capital.\n\nSo those are those are a lot of things. And so, like, I and I think part of so, like, getting rid of venture capital basically means that there is funding available for people to do work that's important, that doesn't involve making a deal with the devil. I think that's a huge part.\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. Cool. Follow-up question to all that. It sounds like you're less a blockchain radical and more of a decentralized ledger technology radical.\n\nSpeaker 2: Maybe, but it doesn't roll off the tongue as well. Right. Like\n\nSpeaker 3: so I I guess on that note, are there any DLTs that aren't, Ethereum that you're excited about that might, yeah.\n\nSpeaker 2: That are that are not Ethereum or not Blockchain or something like that?\n\nSpeaker 3: Yeah. I guess, like, aren't Ethereum, aren't Bitcoin, like, me I guess, the definition of blockchain is a little loose, but I guess, I'm just curious if there are any technologies in the in the in the the rough family of blockchains or DLTs that you think, sort of conform to what you're describing?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. So I mean, the one of the last chapters is compares a couple of, like, alternatives since the book is pretty, like, I don't know, 90% of examples are on, like, Ethereum or something like that. But I do look in like, I think I mean, Cosmos is a really interesting, like, ecosystem in itself just because of how they've thought very differently about how the different chains relate to one another. But it's still I mean, it's still based on capital. No doubt.\n\nHolochain is another one that I think is interesting that doesn't, doesn't have this type of consensus mechanism. I think one of the things that I'm waiting for from Holochain at the moment, though, is, like, just more use and more production. Like, I like you know, I've I've spoken to, like, the founders before, and I like I think a lot of their ideas are really interesting, even though they, like, really don't describe themselves as socialists or whatever. But I do think that there are some things that they say that are that are really interesting that, like, I'm interested to see what the you know, what's going to come out of it. And, like, I'm kind of, like for me, I'm just kinda, like, waiting and observing and seeing, like, what is coming out, and keeping track with those.\n\nBut Holochain is one of those things that I'm like I would like to see, like, do more and and succeed, but we'll see.\n\nSpeaker 1: And if I could just, like, expand a little bit on what I think is like, the point that I agree with the most out of all you just said is which is trying to get rid of VCs. Right? Like and I'm sure this is no news to most of the people in this audience if you're paying attention to technology at all. But, like, there was a moment when venture capital kind of did a pretty decent job of allocation to new ideas and and new technologies, lasted maybe ten years. And for the last fifteen, we've really been living in this kind of, like, hallucination of capital where narrative dominates so much and, like, you're just trying to collect money from people.\n\nAnd, really, the money isn't in building a business that works or building a new technology that enhances people's lives. Like, the money is in creating the narrative, running the fund, collecting the investment, and then cashing out as quickly as possible. And and so, like, to again, I think we're sort of just expanding on each other's ideas here. But for me, one of the visions of the future is, this ability of maybe even relatively small groups of people to form communities online that can direct capital towards projects that actually, like, benefit them and that they then also have a literal stake in as much as that is like a sort of capitalist metaphor. I think there's some value there.\n\nOf course, the tricky part is that when you're looking at it on a on a day to day basis, the difference between a, like, the law cannot necessarily see the difference between a community engaged in a collective enterprise, and, like, one guy running an exit scam who's gonna take all the money from, like, the 20 people he attracted. So that really for me, like, that's, like, the the how do you make that distinction and make it in a lasting way that works is one of the real remaining challenges of this thing. Because once you take, like, face to face community out of the equation and stuff can happen online, obviously, we've seen that what it does as much as anything else is, like, create opportunities for fraud and scams, that are, you know, mostly smaller than the macro societal scale fraud and scam that is venture capital over the last ten years. But it's still, you know, it's not the future that I think either of us want. So that's a hair that is very difficult to split.\n\nSpeaker 2: I love hearing that from you because I mean, I'm just being at CoinDesk for so long and seeing that, the increase in venture capital the past few years must have been I\n\nSpeaker 1: mean, yeah, it's crazy. Like, I've been writing about crypto for, like, it's gonna be literally a decade in, like, two months, which is crazy. And the I was talking to somebody as we were getting ready here. Even in, like, the 2018 blow up, like, there was the first hint of, like, full like like, people in the finance industry actually getting interested. That's why I love the subtitle of your book so much is because as much as it, like, sort of you were you're required to think nonlinearly to make sense of it, but, like, how capitalism did destroy crypto.\n\nRight? Like, that that it really involved, like, people who were in mainstream finance seeing an opportunity, again, like I said, to create a narrative. Narrative didn't have a lot to do with the reality, frankly. And and then you get this, like, horrific public blow up that damages the, I don't know, reputation of the technology even more than it already happened. So it's very frustrating.\n\nSpeaker 5: So so I'm an optimist, and I think that looking at blockchain from a socialist perspective in in our world is fundamentally optimistic. And I think in order to get to a place where socialist infrastructure is built on the blockchain, there in in our world, it would seem like that would happen in tandem with a world that is also hyper financialized. And so in in and in that world, in that scenario, the critics of crypto really do have a role to play. And so my question is, what do you think needs to happen for more so the crypto capitalists on the on the other side to see that there is an option to use crypto in a different lens, a different way of, allocating capital? Because I I think that there's it's not just that socialists need to build, but it's also that what is being built needs to be torn down as well.\n\nSo how do you how do you, you know, navigate\n\nSpeaker 2: that? Very, very carefully. I mean, it's a it's a really it's a that's a really hard problem. I think it's kind of like the ultimate, one of the ultimate problems that needs to be solved is, like, I go back to this a lot, but, like, be like, living within capitalism but also working against it is, like, not easy thing to do. And, like, you know, one of the things another kind of idea that, like, Deloze gets into is, like, the how capital, in one hand, deterritorializes things.\n\nLike, capital has deterritorialized, like, preexisting social structures that used to be the thing that, like, people relied on for help or support or whatever else. That's been destroyed while at the same time re territorializing or then creating new types of social structures that now we're dependent on. So, like, I kind of just use the the, like, kind of metaphor of, like, a double edged sword that, like, on one end you are you are removing and on the other end, you're always adding. And that's, like, a difficult it's a difficult thing to, like, plan everything out and for it to happen exactly as you intended, I think. But, like, it's something worth doing.\n\nIt's I don't know if, like, of course yeah. I don't know if you just, like, ask a capitalist, like, hey. Can you please, like, give us money and not expect returns? Like, it's, like, very unlikely they're going to do it a lot of the time. And but I think if you are in a situation where you're lucky enough to, like, convince them to give you a bunch of money, I think it's kind of it's imperative to try to be that, I guess, to find ways to deterritorialize capital itself and and reterritorialize other things.\n\nSo I mean, like, I think to me, this is kind of, like, also the essence of, like, other concepts, like, dual power or something like that. That there has to be, like, this interaction with the world as it exists and as well as, like, creation of of the new in order to, like, supplant it or to create, you know, to overcome it. And, yeah, so I think I think it's it's very context specific, of course, and, like, what thing is actually that you are trying to pursue. But I think those are it's kind of like the I think, people need to be more comfortable generally in thinking about contradictions or, like, like, acknowledging the contradictions of the things that they may be doing and, like, kind of working through those things, because, like, yeah. The world is full of contradiction and it's, like, not an easy thing to kind of get over.\n\nSo I think at least being aware of it, if you're the one trying to build this stuff and, like, being honest with yourself is is part of it.\n\nSpeaker 1: Being willing to confront the contradiction Yeah. That I mean and and I think the you use the word build, which I think is really crucial because, you know, another way of I I I'm I'm paraphrasing somebody here. It's gonna escape me. But, like, one very effective way to, like, tear down the existing structure is to just go ahead and build the new thing that's gonna replace it. Right?\n\nAnd so I think that, you know, building and then also, like, being in that process and engage with it in all of its complexity and and sometimes, like, compromise perhaps. I mean, to to give the really, like, basic example, I think we probably have different views about Bitcoin. But personally, I view Bitcoin, whatever else it is, as, like, potentially a useful counterbalance to certain practices, by certain governments. And and so I think that's a pretty decent example in my mind of if you build something that actually works and does something for people, then it it can have effects, that, you know, if you're strategic enough, can can accomplish your ends by actually just offering the alternative. You know?\n\nSpeaker 6: I I have a question if that's cool. I, we've we've talked about venture capitalism and how the legacy models and narratives present an obstacle to thinking about how the tech can be used. But what what I found is some of the loudest voices for socialist concepts are actually venture capitalists. Like, Legion has a podcast called Means of Creation, and has talked about creator owned platforms, universal creator income, like, things that sound on the surface actually very leftist, but it's now VCs that are promoting, like, a a an investment thesis called\n\nSpeaker 1: Let's let's never forget who sold us the, quote, unquote, sharing economy. Like, I I have to jump in here because I have an answer, but I'll I'll restrain myself. Sorry.\n\nSpeaker 6: Well, I also wanted to tie into your point about coalition building. So, like, all politics are about building a coalition. So if if some radical ideas are shared with venture capitalists, do you see a path of building a coalition with VCs somehow? Is there a way to thread that needle? And also just what do you think about the co opting of radical language by people that are at the end of the day just trying to get a return on capital.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's it's a tough problem as well. Like, yeah. It's it's not surprising that language gets co opted, in my in my opinion. Like, it's not it's not something that I think we can really just prevent.\n\nLike, tell them, no. You can't do that. Don't do it. That it's not going to happen. Like, Nazism is the cooptation of socialism through a nationalist lens.\n\nLike, the reason the Nazi party was created was because, like, socialism was on the rise, and there was a need to kind of, to co opt that movement and turn it into a fascist one. So, like, this I think this is, like, constantly going to happen. Like, there is always this, like, battle back and forth and, like, I don't yeah. It's it's hard because I think if you purely think of things as, like, there are two sides and we're each pushing, like, back and forth, like, between one another and whoever's pushing hardest is, like, gonna get more and more. Like, I don't think that's how it works.\n\nIt's, like, a lot more multifaceted and, like, you know, there is, like, this, now you probably used some metaphor of, like, Asian philosophy about, like, moving with the water or something like that. Like, finding ways to, kind of, acknowledge that this is a possibility, that this can happen, and how to, I guess, mitigate it because, like, you can't completely defend yourself from, like, all these things. Like, I know of people who are working on specific projects who, like, believe like, who are taking venture capital, for example, and they are trying to find ways in which that, like, kind of reduce their power or their influence over them. Right now, I'm kind of in the phase of, like, waiting to see what they do and how that that pans out. Right now, like, I'm more on the side personally of like, I personally won't wouldn't do a project that accepts venture capital because that's not the thing that I want to do.\n\nSo, I mean, yeah, to me, it's it's kind of like that's what I mean, neoliberalism over the past several decades has been very good at. It's like, with especially technology and big tech, like, there was a pretty good amount of time where, like, people were thinking, like, Google is this big progressive force that's going to change world for better. Like, I remember people thinking, like, Elon Musk was, like, the leftist billionaire because he's making electric cars or some shit, which is, like, obviously now is, like, very stupid, but that was, like, for a long time that's, like, been happening. And it it had like, I understand, like, kind of people being a bit traumatized or a bit, like, yeah, fed up with that type of thing. It's a very it's a diff like, we're in conditions not of our choosing and, like, it's a difficult game to play.\n\nTo choose to want to, like, make different to make radically different new ways of being and structures is to accept, like, a pretty big task in the first place. And I think that kind of has to be acknowledged that, like, you know, there are you you can, of course, come up and make decisions on what is a good way or a bad way of doing it. But I think there is, like, a a space that you can play to where people can try different strategies because I don't think we've really figured out what is the way to kind of, like, move forward on all these things. I still think we're really at a point that we're we're in need of, like, experimentation, in this because, I don't know, we we haven't figured out the thing that's, like, rapidly creating the thing that we want, I guess.\n\nSpeaker 1: I I love your point about, you know, sort of alluding to, like, sharing economy rhetoric, for example, as this kind of cooptation of an existing social impulse maybe towards something like socialism. But instead, we get, like, WeWork, which, like, the We was, like, a huge part of their whole marketing thing. And I would just, like, because, this is slightly changing the topic, but I would just kind of, like, issue a call of warning, I guess. Because in my mind, I'm paying attention to obviously, everybody's paying a lot of attention to it right now if you're in tech. But in artificial intelligence, you're now seeing the deployment of, a certain kind of, I would say, perverted socialist rhetoric being deployed around creativity, for example.\n\nThis idea that an algorithm that ingests other people's work is really just doing the same thing that all artists have done. All all artists steal. All all artists are, like, inspired by each other. We're all one. We're all part of the same thing.\n\nBut in fact, it's actually, like, this cover for intellectual property theft, in my opinion, on a huge scale. And and I think that, like, to bring it back around in a way that doesn't really match any political orthodoxy that springs to mind. But I think as we see this, like, predatory AI approach to intellectual property, it kind of I have to say as somebody with, you know, socialist or leftist tendencies, it perversely kind of, like, reminds us of the value of property and of individual property and of being able to maybe place some limits on how people use certain things that, you know, certain people created and have actual rights to. You know, and I think that, like, crypto does offer that as a different viewpoint that can be useful in certain strategic circumstances to be able to say, like, no. This belongs to this group or this person.\n\nAnd, like, as in the digital age, it's the capitalists who really have the most reach to come in and and take things that are just kind of in the commons. Right? Like, I mean, we're we're seeing with AI essentially, like, a replay of the the real tragedy of the commons, which is the the partition of it and the appropriation from it into private, hands. And and so, like, thinking about ways to limit that pulling out of the commons, I think is also another potential, very theoretical at this point, application of blockchain through certain rights management things.\n\nSpeaker 2: No. I I really like what you said, but, one of the things that part of this question, to acknowledge, I think, is that oftentimes it's phrased as in how can we prevent the right from co opting us? And, like, that's kind of, like, the framework that's generally used without acknowledging that, like, I don't know, like, Marx was he co opted, like, right wing philosophy. Like, Hegel was not a leftist. Like, David Ricardo and Adam Smith were not leftist, you know, like, they were, like, the they are, like, the liberal philosophers who, like, then ended up greatly influencing the way that we think about capitalism today.\n\nAnd he basically co opted the use of their theorems, of their labor theory of value, and used it and applied it in a different way to create what ultimately became, like, you know, Marxist socialism at least. And so, like, there is, like, there is also a history of the left being able to do that as well that I feel like we we kind of forgotten or, like, don't do very much. So, yeah, I don't know. That's that's something that I would that I would keep in mind as well. It's, of course, like, it it it requires, like, critical thinking in order to do that.\n\nIt's not like, you know, an easy thing to do at the same time.\n\nSpeaker 7: Hi, Josh. So I know Josh. So before I ask my question, I wanna share with you guys my perspective because it's kind of my framing as to where the question kind of stems from. So we talked about tech being an expression of our political beliefs, so that's one. My belief is competition and coexisting ideologies.\n\nI believe in this. I believe in that kind of as a means of global learning. You know, we don't like that ideology because x y z happened. We like ours because, you know, y z x happened, whatever, but more as a means of global learning. The third one, my belief is, you know, you're talking about representational thinking.\n\nI think it's kind of the easiest way for people to grasp something, especially, you know, it's just easy. It's mimetic. But also, if we're thinking about, you know, the burden of our information age, we just have everything coming at us all the time. Everything all at once, everywhere sort of situation. So those are the three things I kinda wanna frame before we I jump into my question.\n\nSo, my thinking is, you know, what do you think about the perspective that, you know, the best direction of in implementing, you know, a socialist blockchain might be kind of, you know, leveraging this current state that we have, you know, and this representational thinking, but maybe doing this with the public commons at scale, like water, air, land. You know, a lot of this, you know, with ideologies and tech, it's all kind of an evangelism game. You know, who can you get to follow you on board in your direction and your ideology? And if we're thinking about bringing socialism to blockchain at scale, you know, what are those largest examples? So my thinking here might be that direction.\n\nSo, you know, what's your perspective\n\nSpeaker 1: on that?\n\nSpeaker 2: So you're saying, like, what are, like, influences, you mean, that are moving towards a socialism on the blockchain? Is that kind of what you're thinking?\n\nSpeaker 7: Like, my thinking is the best way to evangelize people is to do things with them at scale that have immediate utility. So, an example could be, you know, you know, public utility blockchains that are leveraging data on water that we use, you know, books that we use, things that are generally public, but, you know, just kind of are being leveraged by and and managed by the government.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. No. I think, this, I don't know, might be an unpopular opinion, but I do think that there is there is, like, a really interesting place to play potentially with, like, partnering with certain governments or, like, local municipalities to use the technology in a way that, like, helps govern already existing, like, shared resources in a particular, locality. I think that would be a very fruitful place and, like, a very immediate thing. Of course, it is sort of like, we haven't found yet, I don't know just I don't know if there are, like, so many I know of a couple of projects that have kind of done this, but some of them are kind of like vaporware a lot of the time.\n\nBut, yeah, I think being like, I'm not afraid to say that it is interesting to, like, partner with governments to do this type of thing, and should be considered a lot more just because it's already a preexisting institution that has access to, like, all these people and who, like, are reliant on them for a lot of their services. So, no, I think that's, like, one place to play. Like, one of the one of my, like, articles that I wrote, quite a while in, like, beginning of the of the pandemic was, like, how to because in in the beginning of the pandemic, everybody was afraid of being, kicked out of their of their homes and apartments because they were not working, and their landlord was gonna kick them out if they didn't pay rent. And this was happening at, like, a massive scale. And so, like, for me, one of the thing like, thought experiments I had at that point is, like, how to, how to use, like, blockchains to kind of, like, create a different type of relationship with housing, for example.\n\nSo I just you know, it's called the housing for all token or something like that, where the token is representation of a political right to housing. So, like, you could use the token to, based on, you know, what your, like, particular conditions are at that moment, use your token to purchase a house, or not really purchase a house. It gives you the rights to use the house. So So it's like a different relationship with property that you don't need to buy a house in order to live in it or rent a house to live in it. The housing is kind of held in commons in the public, and you use the token as just a system of allocating, like, who is able to, live in which particular apartment or house because and at the same time, you can, I think, pretty easily programmatically put in, like, if this is a single mom or something like that with, with kids, their their token would give them a right to a house with more rooms for their children to play in versus, I don't know, someone who's, like, a single guy who doesn't need that much space?\n\nSo I think that's, like that is decommoditizing, housing and relying less on the markets and is something that, like, I think in a world where we aren't so, like, reliant on free markets could be possible or utilizing kind of, like, public housing already existing public housing systems around the world, I think is, like, one thing that I'm that I've thought about that I think is is interesting. How do\n\nSpeaker 7: you think the, like, government welfare structure is like, how how different do you think it is from what you're presenting here?\n\nSpeaker 2: Quite different. I mean, the logic in a lot of welfare systems is very, like, me it's I mean, there's means testing in a way that is, like, quite, like, needlessly punitive, I guess. That a lot of in order to get welfare, especially in The US, like, you have you have the amount of paperwork that you have to give them before you're even able to get anything is, like, pretty monstrous. It's sort of, like, just kinda, like, punishing people for being poor. Like, they're already in a bad situation, and then, like, also you want to, like they have to come in, you know, once a week for, like, a drug test or whatever else, like, that's taking away time for them to be able to, like, care for their families or to, like, find a job or whatever else.\n\nI think it's, quite different. It's just, like, yeah. It depends on, like, the logic that's embedded inside of it. Because what is another great fear of mine, actually, is that blockchains do get used by, existing public institutions, but in the logic of the already existing system, that's quite punitive. So, yeah, I hope that answers this question.\n\nSpeaker 8: I guess to start off, I I would say I like what you said about working with existing institutions because you you talk a lot about this parallelism, right, with these new structures. But I'd be curious to know what your thoughts on of crisis playing a role in this shift. If you look at Bitcoin, you know, this can't this was spun out of a crisis, right, a banking crisis. So it was it was a direct response to that. And so, yeah, I'm and and and to to to the sort of original, like, Delusion point, when you're doing this kind of schizo analytic framework, with rhizomes and the systems and and and how how you how how you present them, you know, what kind of prevents not your own personal politics, but politics in general devolving into essentially being being a pirate.\n\nRight? Like, you're you're kind of, riding you're building the ship with, you know, the small group, that you've coalesced, and you you guys are just trying to get through the storm. So I I I wanna contrast that with sort of the conventional, you know, notion of socialism as, you know, a movement a real collectivist movement. So\n\nSpeaker 2: So into your to your earlier points about crisis and the role of crisis, I think yeah. What what brought about neoliberalism was the crisis, like, in the seventies of, like, stagflation. Like, that was ultimately, like, the moment when things, like, really shifted. The entire world was, like, under a crisis and people were just, like, looking for new ideas and the one that already existed was neoliberalism. There's already a huge movement.\n\nI mean, not a movement, but, like, a lot of money behind this type of thinking of, like, free market fundamentalism that began way before, you know, 1970 whatever it was, whenever it started to to come up. And so, like, I think there is At least\n\nSpeaker 1: the meme is, 1972. Right?\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. I mean, like, it's it's a so, like, I think it was, like, Naomi Klein or, like, shock doctrine. I think she wrote a lot about this that, like, in moments of crisis that it's, like, used as a point whenever, like, nobody's kind of, like, able to pay attention or looking for, like, massive changes to happen, a lot of times for the worse, in the benefit of, like, those who already have a lot.\n\nAnd that's how, like, we tend to have really big changes in in the world. It's, like, after these crises, like, so I think considering that, I think that means sort of, acknowledging that there's a need to, like, build collect like, a collective of sorts, a movement of sorts before the crisis happens because by the time the crisis happens, it's too late. Like, you're not you're not ready for what's happening. Like, if there was some sort of greater movement before Occupy Wall Street that was more organized and more, you know, whatever, it probably would have been a lot more successful than than it has been or than than it was, even though it was a well intentioned, you know, people were angry. But it's just, like, constant thing where there is this reaction to to crises happening.\n\nSo I think that there is just, like, yeah. The need to build infrastructure before before the crisis and to so that you're ready for whenever the crisis does happen because, I mean, if you I mean, just capitalism just, like, guarantees crises. That's, like, par for the course. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 8: Yeah. So so, like, like, I guess that's kind of why I was going into the whole schizo analysis. Right? Because I wanna kind of pick your brain about what your teleological view is of this. Right?\n\nLike, is it that at at the there will be a crisis and then, you know, society sort of remade in this new image? Or is this something to help not promote the status quo, right, but is part of is a mechanism of stability. Right? So so so so, you know, is this socialism, a stabilizing, you know, equalizing force? Or is this socialism something that arises after the crisis, right, when, you know, there are these tools lying around for others to pick up and and and and continue?\n\nAnd so I guess that that's sort of my my my main,\n\nSpeaker 2: yeah, point. Yeah. Because I'm not sure. I mean, I'm not like, I wouldn't be able to make the prediction on that, I guess. I'm more interested to just see, like, I don't know what works, essentially.\n\nLike, I don't it and it's, for me, still hard to say how exactly that will that will pan out.\n\nSpeaker 1: It percent. Like, my take on that and and, you know, like, leaving aside an immense amount of complexity, but my entire fascination with, like, Bitcoin specifically and to whatever lesser extent these other systems have have similar features. But this idea that there it it's it it's put dismissively, but it was like a meme that became a collective action that actually built something. And, obviously, it's rooted in a lot of stuff that I think, you know, a lot of us would dispute on fundamental ideological grounds. But, nonetheless, in terms of, you know, speaking to the crisis, like, it really does appear to now be something that can at least have, as you said, not necessarily status quo, but, like, some sort of protective effect.\n\nSomething that in particular, if you're coming from, like, the neoliberal institutionalist perspective and you believe that, like, the the government is gonna take care of everything, basically, there is now this model for, in a digital way, building an alternative that can be you know, maybe it's not the structure that we would like it to be, but it is nonetheless the structure that can exist past the crisis. And it does exist. You know, it's really there. And and there are obviously, I'm leaving out a ton of complexities. But, and and I think that, like, if you go down to a more granular level and maybe it it's about money and maybe it's about other things, but there are these other structures that you can build outside of the institutions, that that then can be, yeah, there for the crisis or or mitigate the crisis or however you wanna put it.\n\nAnd I think that's one of the, for me, really fascinating things about all of this is that it's a model for exactly, I think, part of what you're talking about with all the hairy downsides and and not quite things that we would wish them to be that that comes with that. Thank you for the book and podcast. I guess I have a couple couple short questions, based on your sense of the ecosystem, sort of demographic questions. Like, what percentage of builders in the space would you say identify as being leftist? And then also, what percentage of builders are women, and what percentage of them are not from the global north?\n\nSpeaker 2: All of them are lower than I would like them to be. It's really hard to say. I mean, I think it has it has changed interestingly over the years. Like, I don't know. I was at ETH Barcelona a couple of weeks ago, and there were, like, a surprising amount of people who at least consider themselves to be on the left that I was able to meet or find, I don't know, just kind of like by accident, I guess.\n\nI do remember, like, when I lived I lived in New York for a year when I was supposed to get into stuff, and I would go to, like, these crypto events and it would be, like, I mean, pretty horrible, like, the type of, like, politics a lot of the people were espousing. It's still the case a lot of the time, the politics that people are espousing, no doubt. But there has been, like, a growth in, like, these pockets, I think, of people who are not thinking about it in in that way. So yeah. And I do think I mean, I don't know.\n\nMy impression talking to women at some of these conferences is that they do think usually, they're ones who come from, like, traditional tech or traditional, finance or something like that. Like, I've heard that they've said that there are more women at crypto things than at the traditional whatever financial tech things that they would normally go to. I can't really confirm that necessarily. And, and I guess there are I don't know. At least at least in Europe, the places that I've been to, I've met quite a few people who come from a lot of the time I mean, there's a lot of people from, like, South America who are building that I've probably met quite a few.\n\nBut, yeah, ultimately, there needs to be more or there should be more, I think. That's really hard to say. I think but the thing is that, like, a lot of people don't label themselves. They don't say like, they don't want to be labeled to be a certain thing. And I get that.\n\nI understand it. I've sort of taken on the horrible duty of labeling myself, who I am and just being honest with it because I feel fairly confident in it and, like, willing to engage in discussion about it, and I don't mind it. But I think a lot of people don't have a coherent politics, generally. And that's not, like, meaning I'm not saying, like, like, they're dumb or whatever because they have that. It's just that we don't it's not like everybody takes the insane amount of time it takes to, like, read whatever big political theory books to then say, like, oh, yes.\n\nI am this, and I can defend all of my positions for everything all the time because it's, like, a weird sort of responsibility to put on yourself, you know. So it's it's hard to say. I think a lot there are a lot of people who have, like, progressive tendencies and, like, have kind of, like, good intentions and wanting to create things that are more egalitarian and democratic and whatever else, but that they don't necessarily put it under the bucket of a particular political name is what I find most often.\n\nSpeaker 1: I would just add one thought to the question about demographics, which is, having sort of to echo what your your your informant told you, which is that having kind of been in the traditional tech space and being in some of those spaces, and then kind of looking at what's happening in crypto. I mean, just the the sheer the simple fact that it is set up in a way where, you know, political borders don't have that much influence, does have a genuine impact. And there are major projects, that come from absolutely every corner of the world. I mean, an example that I try out a lot of the time is, I don't know if people know this, but the team that built Etherscan is based in, I believe Malaysia or Indonesia. I might be getting that slightly wrong.\n\nBut that's like a key clutch part of the entire ecosystem, built by people way outside of, like, the Silicon Valley venture capital sphere. And there are a lot of examples of that. And and so I you know, not to, like, try and simplify it into, like, percentages or whatever, but, like, there really is some, like, expansiveness to the space and the people who are involved that I think can be for very material. Speaking of, like, let's be materialist about it. Right?\n\nLike, for material reasons in terms of the way that technology is set up, that does have, an impact in opening doors. And you can really see it if you're out there kind of interacting with people in the space.\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I have to agree with that. That tends to be missed by a lot of critics.\n\nSpeaker 1: I think that seems like a good stopping point. I think we'll all many of us will be hanging around for a little while longer here. So\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah. I'll be fine.\n\nSpeaker 1: If you wanna chat with Josh, he's here. And I do you have books for sale?\n\nSpeaker 2: If you've bought, like, the $30 ticket, then I will sign a book for you and give it to you. I have the box down right there. We can do that right now, more or less. But yeah. And then if you if you didn't, I don't know.\n\nSpeaker 1: If you have $20, I'll give you a book. And then, just for the purpose of the recording, if you wanna follow me, I'm on Twitter at at david c morris. And is there anything you wanna kinda plug, on the way out here?\n\nSpeaker 2: No. Please buy the book.\n\nSpeaker 1: I guess, yeah, you have one thing. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much, Josh Davila, for, for writing the book, for coming out and doing this. It's been great, and we'll we'll be hanging out.\n\nSo thanks.\n\nSpeaker 2: Oh, thanks so much.",
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                      "text": "Hey, everyone.",
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                      "text": "This podcast episode is coming out on 08/08/2023, AKA the official publishing date for my book, Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It.",
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                      "text": "What you're about to listen to is a recording of the book launch events in New York City, which took place July 23 at the MetaLabel office.",
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                      "text": "As you'll hopefully hear, it was a fun event and was hosted by David z Morris, the chief insights columnist at CoinDesk.",
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                      "text": "I first give a short presentation about the structure of the book, and then he interviews me and facilitates a q and a with the audience.",
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                      "text": "Afterwards was a book signing and hang out with food and drinks.",
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                      "text": "In the show notes, be sure to check out the Linktree where I've listed out several different places where you can order the book in different countries and regions, so be sure to check it out if you haven't ordered a copy yet.",
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                      "text": "I will also be continuing my book tour as I'll be in Dallas, Texas August 10 at Who's Books at 7PM, as well as Medifest in Pula, Croatia, the Crypto Commons gathering in Austria, and in Berlin in mid September, selling and signing books if you happen to be going to any of those places.",
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                      "text": "And as well, I'd like to give a very big thank you to everyone who supported me over the past years financially via Patreon or the TBS subscription NFT, who without, I would not have been able to get this far, no doubt.",
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                      "text": "There's still a lot more I'm wanting to do related to the book, so be on the lookout for that through the newsletter, CryptoLafda's Discord community, and the other usual places where you can keep up with me.",
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                      "text": "Alright, and with that, I hope you enjoy the recording from the Gold Launch Event.",
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                      "text": "That the business press is the only place that you will actually be told the truth, and I will tell you that's mostly true.",
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                      "text": "And, I also because it might be of interest to y'all, I have a a PhD that I earned a few years ago in the history of technology, which is kind of what led me to blockchain.",
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                      "text": "And it is my privilege tonight to introduce Josh Davila, author of the new book Blockchain Radicals, and he'll tell you the subtitle because I forgot to write that part down.",
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                      "text": "Josh is a technology theorist and writer who, much like the book that he's written, bridges a series of contradictions.",
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                      "text": "He, has been active in in, left wing politics and political theory.",
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                      "text": "He also has for a few years now been a consultant on blockchain technology applications to businesses in Europe.",
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                      "text": "I will leave it to him to reconcile the two wolves inside of him.",
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                      "text": "But what's most important about Josh is that for quite a few years now, he has been building a community of leftist and progressives.",
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                      "text": "I use that word cautiously, who also happen to be interested in cryptocurrency and blockchain.",
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                      "text": "He first tweeted pseudonymously as the blockchain socialist probably about two, three years ago, and, has now come out of the shadows to publish this book with Repeater.",
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                      "text": "Josh is here with a preview of the book or a presentation from the book that will, be about fifteen or twenty minutes.",
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                      "text": "Then he and I will have a one on one conversation for twenty or thirty minutes, and then we'll reserve the the balance of time.",
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                      "text": "So plenty of time for questions from the audience, perhaps an informal discussion.",
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                      "text": "Obviously, pretty small event, so we'll keep things loose.",
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                      "text": "But everybody, please welcome Josh Davila to metal label.",
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                      "text": "Thank you.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Thank you.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So, yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Hi.",
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                      "text": "I'm Josh.",
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                      "text": "I wrote a book called Blockchain Radicals, How Capitalism Ruined Crypto and How to Fix It.",
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                      "text": "It came out of sort of the, I guess, synthesizing a lot of the work that I've been doing over the past three years of the blog and podcast, kind of like exploring these spaces and niches and research that people were doing that I felt like was not getting, like, much attention to.",
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                      "text": "And, like, more specifically, usually having related to do some sort of, like, more left leaning or progressive kind of view of the use of technology.",
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                      "text": "So, yeah.",
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                      "text": "So about me, in case you need anything more, my name is Josh.",
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                      "text": "I wrote, or I have been working in blockchain for about five years.",
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                      "text": "I started a blog podcast around three years ago.",
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                      "text": "I have a project called Bread Chain Cooperative that I've been working on for a while as well to kind of synthesize and put into practice a lot of things that I've been learning and experimenting with.",
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                      "text": "I'm also filming a documentary on crypto that's taking a little bit longer than I thought it would take.",
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                      "text": "And, yeah, I've been most recently, I guess, in the podcast focusing on, giving critique on the network state, a book by Balaji, who's a a tech VC think boy.",
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                      "text": "And, yeah, and that's, like, the logo that I've been using on social media and such, for a while.",
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                      "text": "So with so what I want to do with this presentation is just kind of give you a taste of kind of, like, the overarching framework and, like, structure of the book.",
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                      "text": "And so what kind of when I was asked to write the book, I kind of, didn't I wasn't, like, given a thing to write about.",
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                      "text": "There was, like, I'll just write something, like, about the left and, like, blockchain stuff.",
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                      "text": "Like, write a little, like, pamphlet or something.",
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                      "text": "But it ended up becoming kind of, like, a bit more of that.",
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                      "text": "And that was after I I kind of like made this connection with the work of Gilles Deleuze, who's a French post Marxist thinker.",
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                      "text": "And the sort of thing that he's really well known for is or one of the things, besides being very difficult to read, is what's called the critique of representational thinking.",
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                      "text": "So what he says is that oftentimes, in order to understand new things, we use models of the old and sort of impose on it in order to try and, think about how it can work and, like, to make predictions about it and such.",
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                      "text": "Example of this would be something like the drum machine I like to use.",
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                      "text": "So the drum machine was, piece of technology that was created in order to allow people to create, or to be able to play music without needing a drummer with a drum set.",
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                      "text": "So you can get the machine, you buy it, you press the buttons, and then it'll play the beats that the drummer was supposed to play, but he couldn't make it to practice.",
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                      "text": "So in this kind of, like, conceptual model of what the drum machine was meant to do, it was a representation of a drummer with a drum set.",
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                      "text": "That means it was a lesser version.",
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                      "text": "And so he describes this as thinking like a tree, that you have, like, the trunk, which is, like, the ideal representation of whatever it is.",
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                      "text": "And then you have the things kind of going around it that are representations of it, but lesser than the ideal form.",
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                      "text": "And so Deleuze is obsessed with potatoes because potatoes have what's called a rhizomatic, structure to their roots.",
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                      "text": "So do, like, mycelial networks of mushrooms, but essentially, it describes a shape that doesn't have a clear center to it, that it's kind of, like, overlapping and has different it's kinda like a hierarchical structure, different centers.",
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                      "text": "And so, kind of the thing that I connected with, the book and with crypto was that this type of thinking is endemic in crypto, since basically the start of it.",
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                      "text": "You know, Bitcoin was created as a peer to peer electronic cash system.",
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                      "text": "And inside was infused, you know, this narrative of being similar to gold and, this kind of metaphor or this model of using, Bitcoin as a, kind of extension of, like, thinking that the gold standard was the best form of monetary system.",
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                      "text": "I was thinking about Bitcoin as digital gold.",
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                      "text": "And so since there had already been sort of this existing political group of of people who we call them gold bugs or people who believe this.",
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                      "text": "It was like an easy kind of, like, way to get a lot of people who are already connected, believing in this one thing that thinks should exist and willing to pay money for it, especially.",
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                      "text": "They got became attracted to Bitcoin.",
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                      "text": "So that's, like, kind of, like, the beginning of it.",
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                      "text": "You can also if you go through, just, like, a ton of things, code is law.",
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                      "text": "So equating code and law together, decentralized finance.",
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                      "text": "It's kind of like this thing to, like, let's do finance but decentralized.",
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                      "text": "The network state is, you know, also something.",
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                      "text": "So, like, the the way that we kind of, like, conceptualize these things was already modeled on things that already existed and that had certain, implications to them.",
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                      "text": "This is a, endemic.",
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                      "text": "So this is I like I like this quote from Alfred Kraszewski that I think, kinda goes well with this, that the map is not the territory.",
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                      "text": "Whenever the map is confused with the territory, a semantic disturbance is set up in the organism.",
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                      "text": "The disturbance continues until the limitation of the map is recognized.",
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                      "text": "Just saying that, this kind of representational thinking or the this metaphorical thinking in certain ways, like, creates a map and imposes a map on the territory, which is the thing that actually exists.",
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                      "text": "And, the second quote that I really like is that, all models are wrong, but some are useful.",
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                      "text": "It's nice if you need to, like, find out where you need to go, you're following the streets or whatever, but the map of Peru is not the same as Peru.",
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                      "text": "We and we shouldn't, like, confuse those things together.",
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                      "text": "And I think this is, like, a very, like, political choice.",
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                      "text": "So, like, I like the work of of Gramsci, and he has this concept called cultural hegemony that oftentimes, you know, this this was used to explain that, social control structures of society, that the working class, kind of gets imposed this worldview by the upper classes as a way to, like, impose a certain way of thinking about the world and understanding of the world.",
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                      "text": "Like, the map of our world is one that was modeled after those who have the power in order to model that world.",
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                      "text": "And they impose that through structures, through institutions, and whatever else.",
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                      "text": "And so in the book, kind of what I went through and applied this to cryptocurrency was, I kind of listed out the most common, representational models that are used in the cryptocurrency world, and I've divided the book into three sections.",
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                      "text": "Section one is crypto as money, section two is crypto as finance, and section three as is crypto as coordination.",
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                      "text": "So these are kind of, like, the three ways that I've seen just, like, in my time kind of keeping track with it, how it's kind of evolved more.",
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                      "text": "In the beginning, before Ethereum, for example, like, money was kind of, like, the the main thing that people were, like, trying to tackle and, like, create making Bitcoin, like, this monetary system.",
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                      "text": "Then with the advent of smart contracts, like, financial infrastructure became to be more of a thing that people wanted to emulate.",
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                      "text": "And then I think more recently, you have people who are kind of, like, I think there's been a some amount of self reflection in the crypto world, like, oh, that we can't be financializing everything, and it's not so fun to be only about, like, trading digital beans with one another.",
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                      "text": "And so what you're seeing is kind of, like, this expansion of the of the, like, the representational model.",
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                      "text": "And I think part of this is just, like, this evolution of people being like, oh, wait.",
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                      "text": "That's not what it is.",
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                      "text": "Oh, wait.",
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                      "text": "It's always something bigger and bigger because we're exploring more and more of the territory as time goes on and people use it.",
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                      "text": "And then through all of that, in the end, I try to lay out a new concept for thinking about technology that I call techno probabilism that's meant to kind of push back against the idea of techno determinism or, like, the idea that technology is, like, the only thing that determines reality, and try to provide some more context to that question and problem about, you know, structure and agency and whether or not we have the ability to change and influence the way that we think about technology.",
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                      "text": "And so yeah.",
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                      "text": "So, like, this this kind of this is kind of, like, how I, you know, horribly kinda want to represent, what this kinda looks like.",
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                      "text": "You have the terrain of, like, all the things that are that are possible, which is, like, kind of, like, unknown or, like, impossible to really know fully completely because we can't do it all all at once, but that the kind of the the main sort of mental model representation that we've been thinking about has sort of expanded more and more to to cover more of the terrain, but I think a lot of that terrain has still not been covered probably.",
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                      "text": "And that's kind of, like, the things that I'm interested in or want to point out a little bit more sometimes.",
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                      "text": "And I think this is, like, important, and it's kind of, like, a repetition of, again, like, what has happened over the Internet.",
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                      "text": "The Internet was one thing at one point.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I really don't like the whole, like, Web one, Web two, Web three type of narrative, but it is, like, safe to say that the Internet looks a lot different now than it did a long time ago.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And we can also see that, like, the Internet is not forever.",
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                      "text": "So the Internet has kind of evolved and adapted and changed based on the conditions and what has been, become, like, tooling available for different types of websites and, content over the Internet.",
                      "start": 807.145,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so yeah.",
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                      "text": "So one of the things I I really like David's tweets a while back, that I think was really, like, really resonated with me as far as how to kind of I think we should be rethinking these types of things is to just build things more collectively.",
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                      "text": "I think, one of the kind of main, maps or models of the world that I think we are constantly imposed upon is one, like, that is very individualistic, one that is very isolated and alienated.",
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                      "text": "And so one of the things with, you know, for all its flaws, blockchain and cryptocurrencies, it does provide, I think, for a lot of people this, like, sliver of hope that, like, maybe we can create more collective ways of building things together.",
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                      "text": "Even though a lot of people may not be doing that or thinking about it that way, I think that this is something that is, like, very could be very, very fruitful as far as our relationship to, the Internet and technology because I think, like, everybody kind of hates their relationship with the Internet.",
                      "start": 863.065,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think everyone's kind of, like, ambivalent towards it at this point for, for good reason.",
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                      "text": "But I think we also are reliant on it in certain ways that we would not want to give up because we like to have connection with people that are on the other side of the world or whatever else.",
                      "start": 883.815,
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                    {
                      "text": "That is a nice thing that we can do as humans.",
                      "start": 894.055,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, yeah, with the book, I got a bunch of really nice quotes from people, including Vitalik, Nick Cernick, Primavera Di Filippi, and a bunch of other people that were really, influential for me when I was, writing and, like, doing my podcast.",
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                      "text": "And I found out that doing a podcast was a really nice way to network with people, so I was lucky to be able to have connections with these guys.",
                      "start": 910.455,
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                    {
                      "text": "And yeah.",
                      "start": 918.935,
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                    {
                      "text": "So the book comes out August 8, but if you ordered, a book online with a book event, then you get a book here a little bit earlier than, the launch event or than the official launch.",
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                      "text": "But, yeah, I think that's it.",
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                    {
                      "text": "There we go.",
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                      "text": "Awesome.",
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                      "text": "So I think we can probably just grab the opposite into the couch here if you want.",
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                      "text": "That should",
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                      "text": "So you the the first question I wanted to ask is kind of one of the big I we're trying to limit ourselves to big questions here so that we can get to everything.",
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                      "text": "But the, the the big one that you alluded to with that nice circle graph is that, crypto is sort of fundamentally, especially if you understand the security model of whether you're talking about proof of work or proof of stake, there is like a monetization aspect that is truly fundamental to the way a lot of these things work.",
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                      "text": "And so I I would just would love you to expand a little bit on that graph and kind of how it actually works in a practical sense to expand out from that core of money to something that is more abstractly about coordination in a general way and and perhaps in a less individualistic way while building on that platform that it it is really about money or something very much resembling money?",
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                      "text": "So I think the I mean, I would not personally characterize something like Ethereum or Bitcoin as money at all or, like, any really cryptocurrency as money, just, like, comparing it to, like, what the actual definition is.",
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                      "text": "The, like, thing that I think is interesting when it comes to cryptocurrency and relationship to money is more the, like, the governance of not money, but, like, currencies or tokens, which maybe you can put money as, like, you know, one aspect or, like, one one one type.",
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                      "text": "And so, like, I like like, I think of ether ether, for example, or Bitcoin or really any of these as first and foremost as, like, kind of vouchers for using the network.",
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                      "text": "And, yes, it's monetized because you have to buy it most of the time.",
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                      "text": "That's, like, the 99% of people, that's how they interact with it, that they buy it first.",
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                      "text": "And so it has, like, a clear price.",
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                      "text": "It's a kind of, a kind of commodity.",
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                      "text": "And I think that's kind of, you know, in the book I go through as well, like, there are a lot of, properties of these tokens that mimic things about money, and people will kind of, like, cling on to those things and say, it's money because it can do this.",
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                      "text": "Like, I can send it to someone, therefore, it's money.",
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                      "text": "But it's kind of, like, I mean yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I don't know.",
                      "start": 1084.7351,
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                    {
                      "text": "They haven't spent the time to kind of, like, understand what, the kind of, like, social, institution that money kind of, inhibits.",
                      "start": 1085.175,
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                    {
                      "text": "And what I find interesting for me personally is, like I said, more about on the governance side.",
                      "start": 1093.63,
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                    {
                      "text": "Right now, kind of the monetary system is a very, like, technocratic institution.",
                      "start": 1100.27,
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                      "text": "Like, there is no kind of, like, democratic input for what it is.",
                      "start": 1104.67,
                      "end": 1107.475
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "There is, like, a certain imperative of, like, keeping liquidity in markets or something like that as being, like, the one thing that they need to do, and this has, like, a lot of downstream effects to to our situation now.",
                      "start": 1107.475,
                      "end": 1119.635
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And so I think, yeah, thinking about ways and these examples of, different forms of money is more interesting to me than, like, trying to, like like, the gold standard type of narrative about money is one that thinks of money as, like, a type of commodity or, like, a natural commodity that has, like, intrinsic value.",
                      "start": 1119.635,
                      "end": 1138.775
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                    {
                      "text": "I know you know this a lot because you've studied gold bugs before, which is just, like, a very, it's a shallow way of understanding money and how it works and not thinking of it instead as, like, this kind of social institution.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "For the for the for the heads out there, it's a it's a very great example of reification.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1159.22,
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                    {
                      "text": "Oh, no.",
                      "start": 1159.86,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, that I think I",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "think that's basically it.",
                      "start": 1160.8999,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, like, I'm more interested in these, like, experiments of, like, basically, democratic forms of monetary system.",
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                      "text": "Well, so so can we, like, look at specifics if we look at kind of, historical examples of, you know, the things that come to mind for me, and I know you write about them in the book, include, like, co ops, community currencies.",
                      "start": 1169.7251,
                      "end": 1182.49
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I'm sure there are other that I'm that I'm forgetting, but these kind of, like, attempts to build alternative structures, within what we already have and kind of what is it that, you know, crypto or blockchain brings to the table that, for example, would make those experiments, more viable than they have been in kind of, like, the analog era or or, you know, obviously, we can't predict the future and your your rhizome metaphor is perfect.",
                      "start": 1183.75,
                      "end": 1211.35
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                    {
                      "text": "But, you know, what are maybe some potential new forms of similar collective organizing efforts?",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1219.445,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I think that's, like, like, for me, mutual credit is a very interesting system to think about.",
                      "start": 1219.6849,
                      "end": 1226.965
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1226.965,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "And you have a great analysis of an example in the book.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1229.6849,
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1229.845,
                      "end": 1230.085
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So focus on circles UBI, which is based in Berlin, for that one.",
                      "start": 1230.085,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, like yeah.",
                      "start": 1234.52,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, like, you know, all models are wrong, but some are useful.",
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                      "text": "I think there, are kind of what has happened is kinda like the hegemonic models of money, of finance are the things that generally people are wanting to build in the cryptocurrency world because that's, like, that's, the quickest way to making money, and that's, like, the imperative of capital if you're gonna invest in a business.",
                      "start": 1239.8,
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                    {
                      "text": "There's, like, a lot of, like, you know, neoliberal brain in the cryptocurrency world of, like, that's basically in order to change the world, you have to make a start up, that makes money itself and takes venture capital and whatever else.",
                      "start": 1258.5349,
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                    {
                      "text": "But when it comes to money, you know, yeah, I think taking I think it's become an interesting place of experimentation where you can take other types of models that have not been able to get the same amount of traction as a dominant one because it is an alternative space where people are trying to experiment and filled with people who are very skeptical of the current institutions and want to create something different, I think it makes, like, a fruitful space.",
                      "start": 1270.27,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, like, I really liked a recent article from Brett Scott, who's, like, a a money researcher, where he kinda talks about, the synthesis, like, a he like, kinda like a crude dialectical synthesis of, like, the, monetary, like, crypto token world or commodity money, thinking of crypto world with kinda, like, the more alternative, like, historically more progressive, kind of, monetary and currency experimentation space with community currencies, and so forth.",
                      "start": 1296.05,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "And kinda, like, mixing those two together to create something where we use the models of these kind of alternative currency and community currency spaces, but up get the affordances of the technology as well.",
                      "start": 1328.03,
                      "end": 1338.9551
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, I think for him, it's a lot to do with scale.",
                      "start": 1338.9551,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think the kind of the one of the critiques of a lot of these kind of localized attempts at doing these is that they oftentimes don't last too long or they're reliant on, like, a particular person who spends a lot of time administering the system.",
                      "start": 1342.4751,
                      "end": 1357.66
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhmm.",
                      "start": 1358.04,
                      "end": 1358.54
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I think, like, you know, being able to automate so that you're not reliant on this type of thing, but people can just use it is something that's powerful.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And being able to create a space where people can kind of collectively govern is something else that's that's very",
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                  "start": 1367.755,
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                    {
                      "text": "And I would add to that list to, like, transparency also would be, I think, a pretty big one.",
                      "start": 1372.55,
                      "end": 1377.35
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Because I think of, you know, probably a lot of people are familiar with, Berkshares, the the probably the most successful community currency, I would say.",
                      "start": 1377.35,
                      "end": 1387.8251
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But I always think, like, you know, how do you actually know that they're not just, like, printing it?",
                      "start": 1388.145,
                      "end": 1392.625
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 1392.625,
                      "end": 1393.1051
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So so that's one very small brain way of looking at it.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So, there's the kind of, like, structure of the technology, and there are certain biases that one might think at least were were kinda baked in there.",
                      "start": 1397.745,
                      "end": 1407.49
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then there's kind of the history of the technology, which is very specific and we know.",
                      "start": 1407.73,
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                    {
                      "text": "And, you know, going back to, like, the nineteen nineties and, the cypherpunks, aka crypto anarchists, is another term that sometimes apply to the same group who I have quite a quite a lot of sympathy to and are kind of privacy focused and really foresaw some of the issues I think that we're now really facing with the Internet.",
                      "start": 1412.265,
                      "end": 1431.24
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But that did sort of during especially the the early years of Bitcoin adoption kind of fed into some very specifically, libertarian, like, people who are obsessed with Ludwig von Mises and and Murray Rothbard.",
                      "start": 1432.5,
                      "end": 1447.4249
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And that really became very strongly identified with Bitcoin, and there were even books written about it.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "And so I'm kind of curious for, your read of, I guess, the relationship between politics and technology both coming in and going out in the sense of, is the politics that that fed into this technology determinative of of what it's good for, you know?",
                      "start": 1455.14,
                      "end": 1473.335
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and if, like, if not, where does that lack of determination come from?",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1479.815,
                      "end": 1480.055
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I don't think it's like it's not deterministic, but it is, like, getting way ahead of the game, if that makes sense.",
                      "start": 1480.055,
                      "end": 1488.34
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, like, the unfortunate, like, truth about Bitcoin, I think, for for me is that it was successful as a technological implementation of a particular politics, and it, like, it is playing out that politics in its structure and in the way that people are interacting with it.",
                      "start": 1488.34,
                      "end": 1508.355
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And so yeah.",
                      "start": 1509.615,
                      "end": 1510.8151
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I don't think, like, that determines the entirety of what will happen is kind of the the point that that that I'm on.",
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "It's, like, a more difficult job, of course, after the fact, but it's something that I think is worthwhile kind of pursuing.",
                      "start": 1520.4801,
                      "end": 1527.78
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, I kind of like I have, like, a couple of influence influences, I think, with this.",
                      "start": 1529.785,
                      "end": 1534.505
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, one, I really like, Donna Haraway's, Cyborg Manifesto.",
                      "start": 1534.505,
                      "end": 1540.285
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "She's, like, a feminist, writer, and she talks about how, basically, like, technology is not, or say, like, faithful to its creators or to its parents oftentimes, that you can take it and use it for something else, which is, like, what hap if you I don't know.",
                      "start": 1541.225,
                      "end": 1558.5349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You did a PhD in history of technology.",
                      "start": 1558.5349,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I imagine so many things that were built for one thing ended up, like, not being the thing that it was used for.",
                      "start": 1560.0549,
                      "end": 1565.095
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1565.095,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Your example of the drum machine was really good.",
                      "start": 1565.1749,
                      "end": 1566.855
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I like that.",
                      "start": 1566.855,
                      "end": 1567.575
                    }
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1567.575,
                      "end": 1568.075
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So I think this is sometimes lost.",
                      "start": 1568.695,
                      "end": 1570.455
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, when it comes to crypto for me, this is, like, the, like, I I very crudely try to separate, people, one side as, like, the hype men, the crypto hype men, and the other side as, like, the critic, the hype men being, like, this is gonna change the world.",
                      "start": 1570.455,
                      "end": 1583.9099
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Do it.",
                      "start": 1583.9099,
                      "end": 1584.15
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Let's go.",
                      "start": 1584.15,
                      "end": 1584.71
                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "And then the other one being, like, this is all stupid.",
                      "start": 1584.71,
                      "end": 1586.7899
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Don't do it.",
                      "start": 1586.7899,
                      "end": 1587.61
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And stay away from it.",
                      "start": 1588.0249,
                      "end": 1589.1649
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I guess I'm trying to use, like, you know, thinking about models and maps as, like, a way to be nuanced in between these two kind of, like, very hardcore positions, I feel, so that we can find the the cracks in both the cracks in the ways that, like, the hype men are explaining it, because I feel that the critics, they kind of, like, are reacting to just the way that hype men kind of explain it to them.",
                      "start": 1590.4249,
                      "end": 1614.4501
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then you kind of, like, lose out on a lot of, like, potentially, like, very, very interesting things and, like, radical potential for the use of of this stuff.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1624.245,
                      "end": 1624.485
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, that that's a very interesting way that you put it in terms of, like, the the people who are motivated to profit from something often explain it.",
                      "start": 1624.485,
                      "end": 1635.19
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "They're motivated to explain it in the dumbest possible way.",
                      "start": 1635.19,
                      "end": 1638.8099
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then the the people who are, you know, opposed to it are responding to that already reductive framing.",
                      "start": 1639.59,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and I I love that as a I'm sorry.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Go ahead.",
                      "start": 1649.4049,
                      "end": 1649.725
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "No.",
                      "start": 1649.725,
                      "end": 1649.8049
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Go ahead.",
                      "start": 1649.8049,
                      "end": 1650.465
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Well, I was gonna transition.",
                      "start": 1650.845,
                      "end": 1651.965
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I I I was gonna agree.",
                      "start": 1651.965,
                      "end": 1653.005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yes.",
                      "start": 1653.005,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Okay.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So, so I I love that as kind of like a like a way of analyzing the dialectic.",
                      "start": 1653.6449,
                      "end": 1659.505
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I would kind of maybe offer, like, two other categories that can go alongside, which are, like, the more nuanced categories of, like, maybe, like, true believers, probably including some people in this room who are, like, actually trying to build something and are, you know, maybe not trying to make a million dollars as their primary goal.",
                      "start": 1661.325,
                      "end": 1679.095
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And then I would say there's also a class of critics that is at themselves quite nuanced, paying attention to specific things.",
                      "start": 1679.3151,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and, you know, maybe they're skeptics of the entire thing, but they're actually, like, focusing in on here's how it's going to fail.",
                      "start": 1684.915,
                      "end": 1692.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But but I'm most interested in some, like, psychological way in the, the the sort of more knee jerk critics that you're talking about.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "People and and often, it seems like at various moments, you know, obviously, like, media sort of follows a cycle.",
                      "start": 1704.185,
                      "end": 1711.645
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So at particular moments, there is definitely a a surplus of people saying, like, all of this is fraud.",
                      "start": 1711.865,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, the like, crypto has nothing to offer.",
                      "start": 1719.77,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, none of this means anything.",
                      "start": 1724.73,
                      "end": 1726.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And it often, you know, you're you're Delusian.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I'm, like, most fundamentally a Freudian.",
                      "start": 1730.73,
                      "end": 1733.435
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                    {
                      "text": "And so when I look at things like this, I feel like there's a sort of, like, reaction construction happening of, like so I guess the question is, like, in your read and this does tend to be sort of centrist liberals, I think.",
                      "start": 1733.735,
                      "end": 1750.24
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and maybe to kind of beg beg the question a bit, institutionalists, who are most reactive against crypto in this, like, everything all of it is fake way.",
                      "start": 1750.7799,
                      "end": 1762.485
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So I'm curious kind of what your take is on that aspect of of the dialogue.",
                      "start": 1762.485,
                      "end": 1767.305
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, where is that coming from where, especially, you know, often it's people who haven't necessarily looked at the technology very closely or thinking from a very US centric perspective.",
                      "start": 1767.445,
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Like, where but where does that, like, sort of knee jerk I I I don't mean reactionary in the same sense, but, like, sort of reactionary, response to crypto come from in in in your opinion?",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1792.385,
                      "end": 1792.625
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Maybe, like, reactive is, it would be the right ones.",
                      "start": 1792.625,
                      "end": 1795.585
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But yeah.",
                      "start": 1795.585,
                      "end": 1796.3049
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "No.",
                      "start": 1796.3049,
                      "end": 1796.545
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                    {
                      "text": "I think, like, I think Elizabeth Warren is, like, the obvious kind of, like, person",
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "in",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "in all of this.",
                      "start": 1802.06,
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                    {
                      "text": "The banking reformer.",
                      "start": 1804.3,
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1805.8201,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I think it's, like, a very I think it's a world view about, like, I mean, just a lot of trust in the status quo and in institutions themselves and that, like, it's a very much, like, we can fix it from the inside belief, which, I mean, in some cases, maybe you can and, you know, go for it.",
                      "start": 1806.4601,
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                    {
                      "text": "But I think it's this kind of very limiting view of kind of like only thinking of politics as, like, electoralism, I think, is is a big aspect of it.",
                      "start": 1826.195,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Like, thinking of being presented with the the system and, like, a map of the system usually being that being, like, the main institutions for electoralism is a big is a big one.",
                      "start": 1834.33,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1846.235,
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                    {
                      "text": "Speaking of mistaking the map for the territory.",
                      "start": 1846.475,
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                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 1848.395,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1848.795,
                      "end": 1849.035
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, like, I think that there is this like, people and it's, a difficult thing, I think, for a lot of people to wrap their heads around that, like, to think outside of these institutions in ways of, like in order to create influence or power, like, doesn't have to go through these institutional pathways.",
                      "start": 1849.035,
                      "end": 1866.41
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                    {
                      "text": "And that may be scary for some to do that, and it may I mean, there's just a lot of, of course, brainwashing is the right way word, but, like, thinking that anybody who does try to do that is, like, some crazy anarchist who wants to destroy the world and, you know, is it, like, Joker or something like that?",
                      "start": 1867.67,
                      "end": 1883.4299
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But there's, like, plenty of, like, instances in history where that was the way that people changed the world and interacted with it.",
                      "start": 1883.89,
                      "end": 1888.9299
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 1888.9299,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I think, you know, the way that democracy has manifested itself today, especially just, like, in The US and in Europe and as well in the West, it is kind of like a, democracy has become a kind of, like, justification machine for the status quo That, like, oh, you, you know, you elected you tried and you voted really hard, but sorry.",
                      "start": 1889.25,
                      "end": 1911.3999
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                    {
                      "text": "You can't do anything about it.",
                      "start": 1911.3999,
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                    {
                      "text": "Next time, wait another four or five years.",
                      "start": 1912.6,
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                    {
                      "text": "And I don't know.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I think I think it has a lot to do with, yeah, thinking thinking in in this type of map of the world, I guess.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1924.525,
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                    {
                      "text": "So sort of relevant to that, and and maybe sort of to conclude on a totally personal curiosity kind of note, you know, I, as I said, I have a lot of empathy for the viewpoints of, like, crypto anarchists, even to a certain extent, radical libertarians, for the for the very reason that you're you're outlining that there is this, like, institutionalist situation that we find ourselves in, I guess.",
                      "start": 1925.405,
                      "end": 1952.625
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I guess my question would be more to your more to the socialism side of it than the than the blockchain side.",
                      "start": 1953.4851,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, you know, given that this comes out of such a libertarian anarchist milieu, leaving the technology to one side for a second, like, is there, you know, is there an overlap in that Venn diagram?",
                      "start": 1961.0851,
                      "end": 1974.41
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Is there, like, strategic common ground to be found, or or maybe not strategic, maybe just kind of, like, you know, mental creative common ground to be found between, you know, people who, want to end the fed and and people who, like, you know, just want socialized health care, you know?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 1996.0199,
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                    {
                      "text": "Sure.",
                      "start": 1996.1799,
                      "end": 1996.4199
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I think, I think, yes, there is.",
                      "start": 1996.4199,
                      "end": 1999.48
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                    {
                      "text": "It's a very complex game at the same time.",
                      "start": 1999.62,
                      "end": 2001.94
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, like, for me, I like to understand politics as, like, like, all politics is a, is coalition politics that, like, it's usually, I mean, unless you have, like, real, like, a huge base that you're able to mobilize in order to make change where you have, like, the majority of the population.",
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                      "text": "Usually, if you have that, it's because you have a coalition of different groups.",
                      "start": 2021.7,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, you you usually, you can't you can't make the change that you want to do without it.",
                      "start": 2024.22,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I don't know.",
                      "start": 2030.9,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think of, like, you know, I feel like, Yanis Varoufakis was the minister of finance in Greece during, like, the Greek, crisis.",
                      "start": 2031.94,
                      "end": 2040.715
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, like, he was giving, you know I mean, he's a Marxist giving, like, recommendations for policy on what to do, like, to fight against, like, the austerity being posed by the ECB and and everyone else.",
                      "start": 2041.255,
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                      "text": "And, like, like, libertarians loved him.",
                      "start": 2054.22,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, like, American libertarians loved Yanis Varoufakis because, like, they were actually find common ground.",
                      "start": 2057.66,
                      "end": 2064.155
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2064.155,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's like I'm reading a book right now.",
                      "start": 2064.635,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, they were able to find common ground on kind of, like, their hatred for certain types of financial or, like, the ways in which certain financial institutions have been playing the game because libertarians have this certain, I don't know, like, fairness in financial markets as, like, a as, like, a big thing.",
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                      "text": "And so, like, I think there is there's a space to play in there.",
                      "start": 2081.31,
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                    {
                      "text": "Of course, it's just, like, a very it's a complex one, and it's a one that requires politics.",
                      "start": 2085.15,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, it requires, like, having, you know, relationships with people that you, like, don't necessarily agree with on everything.",
                      "start": 2089.275,
                      "end": 2096.2349
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                    {
                      "text": "Because to find enough people who agree with you on everything is just, like, to me a silly game to play.",
                      "start": 2096.2349,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Thank you.",
                      "start": 2105.0999,
                      "end": 2105.74
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Very enlightening.",
                      "start": 2105.74,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So so I think we can start opening it up, to just a broader dialogue, and I'll try and keep things horizontal.",
                      "start": 2106.94,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But do do are there is there anybody in the audience who has a a question?",
                      "start": 2114.94,
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                    {
                      "text": "Go for it.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So thanks for the talk.",
                      "start": 2121.165,
                      "end": 2122.445
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "The book seems really interesting.",
                      "start": 2122.445,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I've been following you for a little bit.",
                      "start": 2124.2048,
                      "end": 2126.065
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So as somebody who's been in, like, the kind of, like, left protect space, I've seen that, as has kind of been pointed out that there's this, almost resistance against tech being integrated tech movements being integrated into, movements, as we pointed out, into institutional spaces, into institutional politics.",
                      "start": 2126.765,
                      "end": 2151.125
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                    {
                      "text": "And it seems like the biggest base would be people, that Jujak called the liberal communist, the the corporate redistributors who are, you know, early adopters of technology, like Bill Gates.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2165.99,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And that, you know, he's really into, like, nano reactors and this type of thing.",
                      "start": 2167.75,
                      "end": 2173.43
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2173.43,
                      "end": 2173.635
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2173.875,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But it But in my experience, people like Nick Chernick and, left accelerationists and these types of people have had a really hard time moving past, technocratic speak and also integration of the culture.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "And that the movements, you know, around these things has largely, like, look at the Bernie Sanders movement, been against really basic technologies like nuclear.",
                      "start": 2189.6501,
                      "end": 2199.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So I'm just curious if there's a strategy, and what kind of politics would be connected to that strategy of, you know, of a socialism that is connected to people as opposed to kind of like a, you know, a PMC type of politics.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2220.8801,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I I agree with the criticism.",
                      "start": 2221.2,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think it's it's a tough one, but, ultimately, the thing that does probably need to happen is just, like, engaging with the communities that you are wanting to, like, build the technology for the most.",
                      "start": 2222.8,
                      "end": 2236.415
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I mean, it's pretty common, you know, even, I don't know.",
                      "start": 2236.415,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I've done I've done a lot of, like, project, you know, technological project management or something, like, in corporate spaces.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And even they, like, you know, you you do, like, surveys or, like, whatever.",
                      "start": 2246.79,
                      "end": 2250.39
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You understand, like, the thing they're trying to do.",
                      "start": 2250.39,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, it's a basic thing in, like, anthropology that you, like, you know, find identify, like, the group of people that you want to identify and, like, understand, like, use use that type of framework to understand, like, maybe the problems that they're facing and whatever else.",
                      "start": 2252.6301,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "A big also, I think one of the biggest obstacles though is that, like, technical education is very low in, like, a lot of the world that we don't like, it's not common knowledge how the Internet works, but everybody is using it all the time.",
                      "start": 2266.665,
                      "end": 2284.465
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But nobody is just like it's just like a little magic box that, like, you know, gives you the the text or whatever that that you want to see that your friend sent you.",
                      "start": 2284.605,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And this and I think this has been on purpose.",
                      "start": 2291.885,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, it's been created to be this, like, almost seemingly that it requires, like, years of intense study in order to understand, like, the basic things of how this stuff works, when it ever like, it like, some, like, some type of, like, I guess, reform, you can call it, that I think would be interesting to have.",
                      "start": 2295.99,
                      "end": 2315.675
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I think that would change this a lot is is if, you know, as, you know, as part of the education system, you, like, understood you are taught, like, how these things work.",
                      "start": 2315.675,
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                    {
                      "text": "And that's one thing that I think the kinda like the left accelerationists and, like, other types of, I guess, left wing movements that I've tried to be more open to the use of, like, digital technologies have kind of kind of misses that they do use a lot of, like they tend to recreate them, like, the technical jargon that they're, like you know, because they're trying to, like they're understanding the the technology on the tech the original creators technologists, like, their own turf, I think.",
                      "start": 2325.54,
                      "end": 2352.245
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And we're not really doing much of an effort to make it, like, you know, a mass education program and how this shit works and and why it needs to be changed.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And, like like, I think there is this kind of, like, paternalism of, like, well, we can't really they can't understand it because it's too difficult or something like that, whatever.",
                      "start": 2359.31,
                      "end": 2368.195
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I think, if I don't know.",
                      "start": 2368.195,
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                    {
                      "text": "I've just found that if you sit someone down and they're willing to learn and want to participate or whatever else, they are willing to to learn about it, and and that can go a long way in, like, like, creating them the framework for how they, interact with their with their apps or whatever else.",
                      "start": 2370.835,
                      "end": 2384.53
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, yeah, there's I've said a couple of things there.",
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I can't speak to I would I would add a little bit to that, which is I can't speak to the specific, sort of portions of the movement that you're talking about.",
                      "start": 2388.53,
                      "end": 2396.425
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, like, on top of the, the actual technical education, I think there is still a ton of room to grow in, you know, what you're basically doing, which is, you know, critical analysis of technology that is kind of socially informed and actually is able to think through the implications of something.",
                      "start": 2396.425,
                      "end": 2420.32
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, and and this is where, you know, you can't necessarily teach the entire package at a social level.",
                      "start": 2420.32,
                      "end": 2427.815
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But also, like, we're we're dealing with it on both sides because you also have the technocrats themselves actively engaged in the process of dismantling an education system that is oriented towards inculcating any kind of critical, like, awareness into people.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Sorry.",
                      "start": 2445.5598,
                      "end": 2445.96
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Go ahead.",
                      "start": 2445.96,
                      "end": 2446.7
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2446.8398,
                      "end": 2447.3398
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I I'll just wrap this up.",
                      "start": 2448.52,
                      "end": 2452.275
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, no.",
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2454.195,
                      "end": 2454.435
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Thank you.",
                      "start": 2454.435,
                      "end": 2455.095
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Both of these are really great answers.",
                      "start": 2455.4749,
                      "end": 2457.075
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I think too, like, I think one of the things that like, if we look at, like, the early Maoist movements I'm not a fan of Mao, but I do like some of the strategies, of mutual aid.",
                      "start": 2457.075,
                      "end": 2468.38
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2468.38,
                      "end": 2468.8599
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "People didn't understand the politics, but when their life was benefited from the actual act of being benefited from a technology, they or political technology, in this case, that they maybe didn't understand.",
                      "start": 2468.8599,
                      "end": 2478.555
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Maybe that could be a micro politics that you could push for that would, you know, make meaningful change in real people's lives.",
                      "start": 2478.795,
                      "end": 2486.2349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I don't think they have to understand, you know, quantum computers or whatever you're using to make this technology real.",
                      "start": 2486.2349,
                      "end": 2492.555
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So",
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                    }
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "other questions?",
                      "start": 2494.65,
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2495.93,
                      "end": 2496.17
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Sure.",
                      "start": 2496.17,
                      "end": 2496.5698
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So this might be an unfair question to ask you.",
                      "start": 2496.5698,
                      "end": 2499.3699
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I'm gonna ask you it anyhow.",
                      "start": 2499.3699,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But I think it's probably impossible to predict, but I'm just kinda curious what your view is on what, like, what do you think, like, the the sort of, like, socialist endgame is for incorporating blockchain technology into society?",
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                      "text": "So, like, let's fast forward ten, twenty five, fifty, hundred years, however long.",
                      "start": 2516.0051,
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                    {
                      "text": "All the breaks go in the direction of the left, where are we?",
                      "start": 2523.9702,
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                    {
                      "text": "Are we still living in a society, like, similar today, but the blockchain is occasionally used for, mutual aid and co ops, or is it, like, all of society full on on the blockchain or, like, I'm just On chain socialism.",
                      "start": 2528.6902,
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                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2546.355,
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                    {
                      "text": "On chain gay communist socialism or whatever.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Yes.",
                      "start": 2551.07,
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                    {
                      "text": "I'm just kinda curious, like, what your, what your projection is assuming the best.",
                      "start": 2551.15,
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                      "text": "I I mean, like, for me, it's, I to be this like, when it comes to socialism, like, we could have had socialism without blockchain for sure.",
                      "start": 2558.27,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I think that can exist.",
                      "start": 2570.215,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I don't think it's like we need to have, like, the block.",
                      "start": 2572.135,
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                    {
                      "text": "We need to have a cryptocurrency to make socialism.",
                      "start": 2574.935,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I think that's kinda like a silly idea.",
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                      "text": "Or maybe not like socialism per se,",
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                      "text": "but just sort of like it it all moves in the direction of sort of like leftist, whatever.",
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                      "text": "As far as you mean, like, starting from now, like, what would be the influence or what would what would ideally would like to see happen?",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2594.2349,
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                      "text": "Maybe framing it less in the the context of, like, socialism or leftism, but just, like, if the the breaks all move in the direction that you'd like it to move into Alright.",
                      "start": 2594.555,
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                    {
                      "text": "In fifty, hundred, however many years.",
                      "start": 2606.075,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, what do you what do you sort of view as the end game?",
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                      "text": "I mean, the end game is socialism.",
                      "start": 2613.3699,
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                    {
                      "text": "But, I think that, I don't know.",
                      "start": 2615.45,
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                    {
                      "text": "One time, I wrote, like, a big list of, like, things that I wish existed that that people could, could do.",
                      "start": 2618.57,
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                      "text": "But I mean, I think it's more about, like, because for me, I think, like, we're I really hate saying this, but, like, we're really early that, because there hasn't been very much, like, experimentation with, like, specifically this technology, with a, you know, progressive lens on it or a socialist lens on it.",
                      "start": 2623.745,
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                    {
                      "text": "So and I think part of that I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that.",
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                      "text": "One is because of all the libertarians in this space.",
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                      "text": "Like, socialists generally rejecting it in a lot of ways, socialists never having money, and, like, you know, a lot of these types of things that have been, like, huge obstacles to to making that happen.",
                      "start": 2650.4,
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                      "text": "But, I mean, ideally, I would love to see just, like I mean, the biggest thing is, like, a whole lot less reliance on venture capital and, like, the idea of capital in itself, generally.",
                      "start": 2663.91,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, to me, like, a post capitalism, it means that we are less reliant on capital as, like, a social institution for how we kind of reproduce ourselves and, like, the things in the world, which means that, you know, people are just not doing things solely for, like, the profit motive.",
                      "start": 2674.71,
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                    {
                      "text": "And that's a really hard problem to solve because, like, cryptocurrencies are so monetized, and, like, the main reason, like, 90% of people buy it generally is to speculate and to make money off of it.",
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                      "text": "So it's, like, it's it's difficult.",
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                      "text": "But I think, like and and there is, I think, another problem to solve as well is that, like, the consensus mechanisms of basically every blockchain is based on a profit motive.",
                      "start": 2708.115,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, economic incentivization is just, like, profit.",
                      "start": 2718.8398,
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                    {
                      "text": "It's like we're reliant.",
                      "start": 2722.92,
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                      "text": "So, like, I think what why blockchains, work is because they comply with kind of, like, the the expectations of capitalism of, like, you are accumulating capital and that the world is moving forward because of that.",
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                      "text": "Again, another very difficult problem, to solve, like, whether or not we need, like, the consensus mechanism should be changed to something that doesn't allow that, but also still have the same kind of safety and security guarantees that it that it gives us.",
                      "start": 2738.4749,
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                    {
                      "text": "Maybe that means that it's, like, like, not a blockchain and is, like, some other type of distributed ledger.",
                      "start": 2752.83,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Could be.",
                      "start": 2759.6301,
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                      "text": "I think just blockchains are the ones that the the, like, kind of infrastructure that has become the most popular and the most, like, interesting people developing on it, and that's why, like, I spend so much time looking at it and thinking about it.",
                      "start": 2760.99,
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                      "text": "But I do think that there are there is, like, a, like, a non insignificant chance that, like, we need to rethink, like, blockchains themselves, and maybe that means that they are not blockchains anymore, and, you know, are able to do the things that they do without necessarily relying on capital.",
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                      "text": "So those are those are a lot of things.",
                      "start": 2788.92,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, like, I and I think part of so, like, getting rid of venture capital basically means that there is funding available for people to do work that's important, that doesn't involve making a deal with the devil.",
                      "start": 2789.96,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think that's a huge part.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Cool.",
                      "start": 2801.9148,
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                    {
                      "text": "Follow-up question to all that.",
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                    {
                      "text": "It sounds like you're less a blockchain radical and more of a decentralized ledger technology radical.",
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                      "text": "Maybe, but it doesn't roll off the tongue as well.",
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 2813.27,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like",
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                      "text": "so I I guess on that note, are there any DLTs that aren't, Ethereum that you're excited about that might, yeah.",
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                      "text": "That are that are not Ethereum or not Blockchain or something like that?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "I guess, like, aren't Ethereum, aren't Bitcoin, like, me I guess, the definition of blockchain is a little loose, but I guess, I'm just curious if there are any technologies in the in the in the the rough family of blockchains or DLTs that you think, sort of conform to what you're describing?",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 2851.975,
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                    {
                      "text": "So I mean, the one of the last chapters is compares a couple of, like, alternatives since the book is pretty, like, I don't know, 90% of examples are on, like, Ethereum or something like that.",
                      "start": 2852.215,
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                    {
                      "text": "But I do look in like, I think I mean, Cosmos is a really interesting, like, ecosystem in itself just because of how they've thought very differently about how the different chains relate to one another.",
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                    {
                      "text": "But it's still I mean, it's still based on capital.",
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                    {
                      "text": "No doubt.",
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                      "text": "Holochain is another one that I think is interesting that doesn't, doesn't have this type of consensus mechanism.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I think one of the things that I'm waiting for from Holochain at the moment, though, is, like, just more use and more production.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I like you know, I've I've spoken to, like, the founders before, and I like I think a lot of their ideas are really interesting, even though they, like, really don't describe themselves as socialists or whatever.",
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                    {
                      "text": "But I do think that there are some things that they say that are that are really interesting that, like, I'm interested to see what the you know, what's going to come out of it.",
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                      "text": "And, like, I'm kind of, like for me, I'm just kinda, like, waiting and observing and seeing, like, what is coming out, and keeping track with those.",
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                      "text": "But Holochain is one of those things that I'm like I would like to see, like, do more and and succeed, but we'll see.",
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                      "text": "And if I could just, like, expand a little bit on what I think is like, the point that I agree with the most out of all you just said is which is trying to get rid of VCs.",
                      "start": 2926.16,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 2933.455,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like and I'm sure this is no news to most of the people in this audience if you're paying attention to technology at all.",
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                      "text": "But, like, there was a moment when venture capital kind of did a pretty decent job of allocation to new ideas and and new technologies, lasted maybe ten years.",
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And for the last fifteen, we've really been living in this kind of, like, hallucination of capital where narrative dominates so much and, like, you're just trying to collect money from people.",
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                      "text": "And, really, the money isn't in building a business that works or building a new technology that enhances people's lives.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, the money is in creating the narrative, running the fund, collecting the investment, and then cashing out as quickly as possible.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And and so, like, to again, I think we're sort of just expanding on each other's ideas here.",
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                      "text": "But for me, one of the visions of the future is, this ability of maybe even relatively small groups of people to form communities online that can direct capital towards projects that actually, like, benefit them and that they then also have a literal stake in as much as that is like a sort of capitalist metaphor.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I think there's some value there.",
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                      "text": "Of course, the tricky part is that when you're looking at it on a on a day to day basis, the difference between a, like, the law cannot necessarily see the difference between a community engaged in a collective enterprise, and, like, one guy running an exit scam who's gonna take all the money from, like, the 20 people he attracted.",
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                      "text": "So that really for me, like, that's, like, the the how do you make that distinction and make it in a lasting way that works is one of the real remaining challenges of this thing.",
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                      "text": "Because once you take, like, face to face community out of the equation and stuff can happen online, obviously, we've seen that what it does as much as anything else is, like, create opportunities for fraud and scams, that are, you know, mostly smaller than the macro societal scale fraud and scam that is venture capital over the last ten years.",
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                      "text": "But it's still, you know, it's not the future that I think either of us want.",
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                    {
                      "text": "So that's a hair that is very difficult to split.",
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                      "text": "I love hearing that from you because I mean, I'm just being at CoinDesk for so long and seeing that, the increase in venture capital the past few years must have been I",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "mean, yeah, it's crazy.",
                      "start": 3077.895,
                      "end": 3079.155
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I've been writing about crypto for, like, it's gonna be literally a decade in, like, two months, which is crazy.",
                      "start": 3079.155,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And the I was talking to somebody as we were getting ready here.",
                      "start": 3085.955,
                      "end": 3092.01
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Even in, like, the 2018 blow up, like, there was the first hint of, like, full like like, people in the finance industry actually getting interested.",
                      "start": 3092.87,
                      "end": 3103.2349
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                    {
                      "text": "That's why I love the subtitle of your book so much is because as much as it, like, sort of you were you're required to think nonlinearly to make sense of it, but, like, how capitalism did destroy crypto.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 3112.9749,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, that that it really involved, like, people who were in mainstream finance seeing an opportunity, again, like I said, to create a narrative.",
                      "start": 3113.215,
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                    {
                      "text": "Narrative didn't have a lot to do with the reality, frankly.",
                      "start": 3124.01,
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                    {
                      "text": "And and then you get this, like, horrific public blow up that damages the, I don't know, reputation of the technology even more than it already happened.",
                      "start": 3128.01,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So it's very frustrating.",
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                      "text": "So so I'm an optimist, and I think that looking at blockchain from a socialist perspective in in our world is fundamentally optimistic.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And I think in order to get to a place where socialist infrastructure is built on the blockchain, there in in our world, it would seem like that would happen in tandem with a world that is also hyper financialized.",
                      "start": 3152.6,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so in in and in that world, in that scenario, the critics of crypto really do have a role to play.",
                      "start": 3172.4849,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so my question is, what do you think needs to happen for more so the crypto capitalists on the on the other side to see that there is an option to use crypto in a different lens, a different way of, allocating capital?",
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                    {
                      "text": "Because I I think that there's it's not just that socialists need to build, but it's also that what is being built needs to be torn down as well.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So how do you how do you, you know, navigate",
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                      "text": "that?",
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                    {
                      "text": "Very, very carefully.",
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                      "text": "I mean, it's a it's a really it's a that's a really hard problem.",
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                    {
                      "text": "I think it's kind of like the ultimate, one of the ultimate problems that needs to be solved is, like, I go back to this a lot, but, like, be like, living within capitalism but also working against it is, like, not easy thing to do.",
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                    {
                      "text": "And, like, you know, one of the things another kind of idea that, like, Deloze gets into is, like, the how capital, in one hand, deterritorializes things.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, capital has deterritorialized, like, preexisting social structures that used to be the thing that, like, people relied on for help or support or whatever else.",
                      "start": 3252.235,
                      "end": 3261.215
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's been destroyed while at the same time re territorializing or then creating new types of social structures that now we're dependent on.",
                      "start": 3261.52,
                      "end": 3268.6401
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, I kind of just use the the, like, kind of metaphor of, like, a double edged sword that, like, on one end you are you are removing and on the other end, you're always adding.",
                      "start": 3268.6401,
                      "end": 3278.845
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And that's, like, a difficult it's a difficult thing to, like, plan everything out and for it to happen exactly as you intended, I think.",
                      "start": 3280.025,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, like, it's something worth doing.",
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "It's I don't know if, like, of course yeah.",
                      "start": 3294.24,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I don't know if you just, like, ask a capitalist, like, hey.",
                      "start": 3298.8801,
                      "end": 3301.12
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Can you please, like, give us money and not expect returns?",
                      "start": 3301.12,
                      "end": 3304.26
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, it's, like, very unlikely they're going to do it a lot of the time.",
                      "start": 3304.32,
                      "end": 3308.375
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And but I think if you are in a situation where you're lucky enough to, like, convince them to give you a bunch of money, I think it's kind of it's imperative to try to be that, I guess, to find ways to deterritorialize capital itself and and reterritorialize other things.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So I mean, like, I think to me, this is kind of, like, also the essence of, like, other concepts, like, dual power or something like that.",
                      "start": 3329.2402,
                      "end": 3335.795
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That there has to be, like, this interaction with the world as it exists and as well as, like, creation of of the new in order to, like, supplant it or to create, you know, to overcome it.",
                      "start": 3335.795,
                      "end": 3346.935
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, yeah, so I think I think it's it's very context specific, of course, and, like, what thing is actually that you are trying to pursue.",
                      "start": 3348.18,
                      "end": 3354.5999
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But I think those are it's kind of like the I think, people need to be more comfortable generally in thinking about contradictions or, like, like, acknowledging the contradictions of the things that they may be doing and, like, kind of working through those things, because, like, yeah.",
                      "start": 3355.14,
                      "end": 3372.8452
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "The world is full of contradiction and it's, like, not an easy thing to kind of get over.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So I think at least being aware of it, if you're the one trying to build this stuff and, like, being honest with yourself is is part of it.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Being willing to confront the contradiction Yeah.",
                      "start": 3385.87,
                      "end": 3388.79
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That I mean and and I think the you use the word build, which I think is really crucial because, you know, another way of I I I'm I'm paraphrasing somebody here.",
                      "start": 3389.23,
                      "end": 3398.4548
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's gonna escape me.",
                      "start": 3398.4548,
                      "end": 3399.335
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, like, one very effective way to, like, tear down the existing structure is to just go ahead and build the new thing that's gonna replace it.",
                      "start": 3399.335,
                      "end": 3406.775
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 3406.775,
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And so I think that, you know, building and then also, like, being in that process and engage with it in all of its complexity and and sometimes, like, compromise perhaps.",
                      "start": 3408.0999,
                      "end": 3420.04
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, to to give the really, like, basic example, I think we probably have different views about Bitcoin.",
                      "start": 3420.74,
                      "end": 3426.945
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But personally, I view Bitcoin, whatever else it is, as, like, potentially a useful counterbalance to certain practices, by certain governments.",
                      "start": 3427.165,
                      "end": 3436.305
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and so I think that's a pretty decent example in my mind of if you build something that actually works and does something for people, then it it can have effects, that, you know, if you're strategic enough, can can accomplish your ends by actually just offering the alternative.",
                      "start": 3436.8699,
                      "end": 3453.895
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know?",
                      "start": 3454.0352,
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I I have a question if that's cool.",
                      "start": 3455.235,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I, we've we've talked about venture capitalism and how the legacy models and narratives present an obstacle to thinking about how the tech can be used.",
                      "start": 3458.435,
                      "end": 3470.19
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But what what I found is some of the loudest voices for socialist concepts are actually venture capitalists.",
                      "start": 3470.73,
                      "end": 3479.835
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, Legion has a podcast called Means of Creation, and has talked about creator owned platforms, universal creator income, like, things that sound on the surface actually very leftist, but it's now VCs that are promoting, like, a a an investment thesis called",
                      "start": 3480.075,
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Let's let's never forget who sold us the, quote, unquote, sharing economy.",
                      "start": 3501.31,
                      "end": 3505.01
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I I have to jump in here because I have an answer, but I'll I'll restrain myself.",
                      "start": 3505.23,
                      "end": 3509.045
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Sorry.",
                      "start": 3509.045,
                      "end": 3509.545
                    }
                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Well, I also wanted to tie into your point about coalition building.",
                      "start": 3510.1648,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, all politics are about building a coalition.",
                      "start": 3514.885,
                      "end": 3517.385
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So if if some radical ideas are shared with venture capitalists, do you see a path of building a coalition with VCs somehow?",
                      "start": 3517.9248,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Is there a way to thread that needle?",
                      "start": 3528.75,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And also just what do you think about the co opting of radical language by people that are at the end of the day just trying to get a return on capital.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 3541.045,
                      "end": 3541.445
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I mean, it's it's a tough problem as well.",
                      "start": 3541.445,
                      "end": 3543.925
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, yeah.",
                      "start": 3543.925,
                      "end": 3547.205
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's it's not surprising that language gets co opted, in my in my opinion.",
                      "start": 3547.205,
                      "end": 3554.22
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, it's not it's not something that I think we can really just prevent.",
                      "start": 3554.22,
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Like, tell them, no.",
                      "start": 3559.8198,
                      "end": 3561.3398
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You can't do that.",
                      "start": 3561.3398,
                      "end": 3562.48
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Don't do it.",
                      "start": 3562.5398,
                      "end": 3563.44
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That it's not going to happen.",
                      "start": 3564.055,
                      "end": 3565.435
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, Nazism is the cooptation of socialism through a nationalist lens.",
                      "start": 3565.655,
                      "end": 3571.095
                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Like, the reason the Nazi party was created was because, like, socialism was on the rise, and there was a need to kind of, to co opt that movement and turn it into a fascist one.",
                      "start": 3571.095,
                      "end": 3582.33
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, this I think this is, like, constantly going to happen.",
                      "start": 3583.03,
                      "end": 3585.77
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, there is always this, like, battle back and forth and, like, I don't yeah.",
                      "start": 3586.07,
                      "end": 3591.525
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's it's hard because I think if you purely think of things as, like, there are two sides and we're each pushing, like, back and forth, like, between one another and whoever's pushing hardest is, like, gonna get more and more.",
                      "start": 3591.525,
                      "end": 3603.365
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I don't think that's how it works.",
                      "start": 3603.365,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "It's, like, a lot more multifaceted and, like, you know, there is, like, this, now you probably used some metaphor of, like, Asian philosophy about, like, moving with the water or something like that.",
                      "start": 3604.83,
                      "end": 3615.7102
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, finding ways to, kind of, acknowledge that this is a possibility, that this can happen, and how to, I guess, mitigate it because, like, you can't completely defend yourself from, like, all these things.",
                      "start": 3615.7102,
                      "end": 3627.635
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I know of people who are working on specific projects who, like, believe like, who are taking venture capital, for example, and they are trying to find ways in which that, like, kind of reduce their power or their influence over them.",
                      "start": 3627.855,
                      "end": 3639.5498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right now, I'm kind of in the phase of, like, waiting to see what they do and how that that pans out.",
                      "start": 3640.0098,
                      "end": 3644.91
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right now, like, I'm more on the side personally of like, I personally won't wouldn't do a project that accepts venture capital because that's not the thing that I want to do.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "So, I mean, yeah, to me, it's it's kind of like that's what I mean, neoliberalism over the past several decades has been very good at.",
                      "start": 3657.495,
                      "end": 3666.29
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's like, with especially technology and big tech, like, there was a pretty good amount of time where, like, people were thinking, like, Google is this big progressive force that's going to change world for better.",
                      "start": 3666.29,
                      "end": 3676.965
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I remember people thinking, like, Elon Musk was, like, the leftist billionaire because he's making electric cars or some shit, which is, like, obviously now is, like, very stupid, but that was, like, for a long time that's, like, been happening.",
                      "start": 3676.965,
                      "end": 3688.905
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And it it had like, I understand, like, kind of people being a bit traumatized or a bit, like, yeah, fed up with that type of thing.",
                      "start": 3689.49,
                      "end": 3697.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's a very it's a diff like, we're in conditions not of our choosing and, like, it's a difficult game to play.",
                      "start": 3698.77,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "To choose to want to, like, make different to make radically different new ways of being and structures is to accept, like, a pretty big task in the first place.",
                      "start": 3704.885,
                      "end": 3715.845
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I think that kind of has to be acknowledged that, like, you know, there are you you can, of course, come up and make decisions on what is a good way or a bad way of doing it.",
                      "start": 3715.845,
                      "end": 3727.39
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But I think there is, like, a a space that you can play to where people can try different strategies because I don't think we've really figured out what is the way to kind of, like, move forward on all these things.",
                      "start": 3727.8499,
                      "end": 3740.9949
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I still think we're really at a point that we're we're in need of, like, experimentation, in this because, I don't know, we we haven't figured out the thing that's, like, rapidly creating the thing that we want, I guess.",
                      "start": 3740.9949,
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I I love your point about, you know, sort of alluding to, like, sharing economy rhetoric, for example, as this kind of cooptation of an existing social impulse maybe towards something like socialism.",
                      "start": 3755.9001,
                      "end": 3770.555
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But instead, we get, like, WeWork, which, like, the We was, like, a huge part of their whole marketing thing.",
                      "start": 3770.9348,
                      "end": 3777.08
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And I would just, like, because, this is slightly changing the topic, but I would just kind of, like, issue a call of warning, I guess.",
                      "start": 3777.3801,
                      "end": 3784.52
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Because in my mind, I'm paying attention to obviously, everybody's paying a lot of attention to it right now if you're in tech.",
                      "start": 3784.66,
                      "end": 3790.045
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But in artificial intelligence, you're now seeing the deployment of, a certain kind of, I would say, perverted socialist rhetoric being deployed around creativity, for example.",
                      "start": 3790.265,
                      "end": 3804.1501
                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "This idea that an algorithm that ingests other people's work is really just doing the same thing that all artists have done.",
                      "start": 3804.77,
                      "end": 3812.69
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "All all artists steal.",
                      "start": 3812.69,
                      "end": 3814.21
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "All all artists are, like, inspired by each other.",
                      "start": 3814.21,
                      "end": 3816.705
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "We're all one.",
                      "start": 3816.7852,
                      "end": 3817.585
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "We're all part of the same thing.",
                      "start": 3817.585,
                      "end": 3818.5452
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "But in fact, it's actually, like, this cover for intellectual property theft, in my opinion, on a huge scale.",
                      "start": 3818.5452,
                      "end": 3824.885
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and I think that, like, to bring it back around in a way that doesn't really match any political orthodoxy that springs to mind.",
                      "start": 3825.2651,
                      "end": 3832.82
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But I think as we see this, like, predatory AI approach to intellectual property, it kind of I have to say as somebody with, you know, socialist or leftist tendencies, it perversely kind of, like, reminds us of the value of property and of individual property and of being able to maybe place some limits on how people use certain things that, you know, certain people created and have actual rights to.",
                      "start": 3832.82,
                      "end": 3861.775
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, and I think that, like, crypto does offer that as a different viewpoint that can be useful in certain strategic circumstances to be able to say, like, no.",
                      "start": 3862.2349,
                      "end": 3873.65
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "This belongs to this group or this person.",
                      "start": 3873.65,
                      "end": 3876.79
                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And, like, as in the digital age, it's the capitalists who really have the most reach to come in and and take things that are just kind of in the commons.",
                      "start": 3876.85,
                      "end": 3887.015
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 3887.015,
                      "end": 3887.255
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I mean, we're we're seeing with AI essentially, like, a replay of the the real tragedy of the commons, which is the the partition of it and the appropriation from it into private, hands.",
                      "start": 3887.255,
                      "end": 3900.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And and so, like, thinking about ways to limit that pulling out of the commons, I think is also another potential, very theoretical at this point, application of blockchain through certain rights management things.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "No.",
                      "start": 3914.815,
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                    {
                      "text": "I I really like what you said, but, one of the things that part of this question, to acknowledge, I think, is that oftentimes it's phrased as in how can we prevent the right from co opting us?",
                      "start": 3915.055,
                      "end": 3928.4302
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, like, that's kind of, like, the framework that's generally used without acknowledging that, like, I don't know, like, Marx was he co opted, like, right wing philosophy.",
                      "start": 3929.4502,
                      "end": 3940.235
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, Hegel was not a leftist.",
                      "start": 3941.0151,
                      "end": 3942.715
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, David Ricardo and Adam Smith were not leftist, you know, like, they were, like, the they are, like, the liberal philosophers who, like, then ended up greatly influencing the way that we think about capitalism today.",
                      "start": 3943.0151,
                      "end": 3956.51
                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And he basically co opted the use of their theorems, of their labor theory of value, and used it and applied it in a different way to create what ultimately became, like, you know, Marxist socialism at least.",
                      "start": 3956.51,
                      "end": 3969.345
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And so, like, there is, like, there is also a history of the left being able to do that as well that I feel like we we kind of forgotten or, like, don't do very much.",
                      "start": 3969.345,
                      "end": 3977.605
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, yeah, I don't know.",
                      "start": 3977.9849,
                      "end": 3978.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's that's something that I would that I would keep in mind as well.",
                      "start": 3978.63,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's, of course, like, it it it requires, like, critical thinking in order to do that.",
                      "start": 3981.1099,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 3956.51,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "It's not like, you know, an easy thing to do at the same time.",
                      "start": 3987.27,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Hi, Josh.",
                      "start": 3992.565,
                      "end": 3993.285
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So I know Josh.",
                      "start": 3993.285,
                      "end": 3994.425
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So before I ask my question, I wanna share with you guys my perspective because it's kind of my framing as to where the question kind of stems from.",
                      "start": 3995.525,
                      "end": 4003.385
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So we talked about tech being an expression of our political beliefs, so that's one.",
                      "start": 4003.8801,
                      "end": 4008.3
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "My belief is competition and coexisting ideologies.",
                      "start": 4010.28,
                      "end": 4014.22
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 3992.565,
                  "end": 4014.22,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I believe in this.",
                      "start": 4016.44,
                      "end": 4017.56
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I believe in that kind of as a means of global learning.",
                      "start": 4017.56,
                      "end": 4021.125
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, we don't like that ideology because x y z happened.",
                      "start": 4021.125,
                      "end": 4024.105
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "We like ours because, you know, y z x happened, whatever, but more as a means of global learning.",
                      "start": 4024.1648,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "The third one, my belief is, you know, you're talking about representational thinking.",
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                      "text": "I think it's kind of the easiest way for people to grasp something, especially, you know, it's just easy.",
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                    {
                      "text": "It's mimetic.",
                      "start": 4044.26,
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                    {
                      "text": "But also, if we're thinking about, you know, the burden of our information age, we just have everything coming at us all the time.",
                      "start": 4046.2148,
                      "end": 4052.9548
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                    {
                      "text": "Everything all at once, everywhere sort of situation.",
                      "start": 4053.335,
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                    {
                      "text": "So those are the three things I kinda wanna frame before we I jump into my question.",
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                      "text": "So, my thinking is, you know, what do you think about the perspective that, you know, the best direction of in implementing, you know, a socialist blockchain might be kind of, you know, leveraging this current state that we have, you know, and this representational thinking, but maybe doing this with the public commons at scale, like water, air, land.",
                      "start": 4062.9302,
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, a lot of this, you know, with ideologies and tech, it's all kind of an evangelism game.",
                      "start": 4092.21,
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                    {
                      "text": "You know, who can you get to follow you on board in your direction and your ideology?",
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                    {
                      "text": "And if we're thinking about bringing socialism to blockchain at scale, you know, what are those largest examples?",
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                    {
                      "text": "So my thinking here might be that direction.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "So, you know, what's your perspective",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "on that?",
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                      "text": "So you're saying, like, what are, like, influences, you mean, that are moving towards a socialism on the blockchain?",
                      "start": 4117.73,
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                    {
                      "text": "Is that kind of what you're thinking?",
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                      "text": "Like, my thinking is the best way to evangelize people is to do things with them at scale that have immediate utility.",
                      "start": 4127.73,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, an example could be, you know, you know, public utility blockchains that are leveraging data on water that we use, you know, books that we use, things that are generally public, but, you know, just kind of are being leveraged by and and managed by the government.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right.",
                      "start": 4155.12,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "No.",
                      "start": 4155.9204,
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                      "text": "I think, this, I don't know, might be an unpopular opinion, but I do think that there is there is, like, a really interesting place to play potentially with, like, partnering with certain governments or, like, local municipalities to use the technology in a way that, like, helps govern already existing, like, shared resources in a particular, locality.",
                      "start": 4156.08,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think that would be a very fruitful place and, like, a very immediate thing.",
                      "start": 4181.21,
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                    {
                      "text": "Of course, it is sort of like, we haven't found yet, I don't know just I don't know if there are, like, so many I know of a couple of projects that have kind of done this, but some of them are kind of like vaporware a lot of the time.",
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                      "text": "But, yeah, I think being like, I'm not afraid to say that it is interesting to, like, partner with governments to do this type of thing, and should be considered a lot more just because it's already a preexisting institution that has access to, like, all these people and who, like, are reliant on them for a lot of their services.",
                      "start": 4197.985,
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                    {
                      "text": "So, no, I think that's, like, one place to play.",
                      "start": 4221.335,
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                      "text": "Like, one of the one of my, like, articles that I wrote, quite a while in, like, beginning of the of the pandemic was, like, how to because in in the beginning of the pandemic, everybody was afraid of being, kicked out of their of their homes and apartments because they were not working, and their landlord was gonna kick them out if they didn't pay rent.",
                      "start": 4223.4946,
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                    {
                      "text": "And this was happening at, like, a massive scale.",
                      "start": 4241.22,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, like, for me, one of the thing like, thought experiments I had at that point is, like, how to, how to use, like, blockchains to kind of, like, create a different type of relationship with housing, for example.",
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                      "text": "So I just you know, it's called the housing for all token or something like that, where the token is representation of a political right to housing.",
                      "start": 4256.925,
                      "end": 4265.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So, like, you could use the token to, based on, you know, what your, like, particular conditions are at that moment, use your token to purchase a house, or not really purchase a house.",
                      "start": 4266.39,
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                    {
                      "text": "It gives you the rights to use the house.",
                      "start": 4281.225,
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                    {
                      "text": "So So it's like a different relationship with property that you don't need to buy a house in order to live in it or rent a house to live in it.",
                      "start": 4283.465,
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                    {
                      "text": "The housing is kind of held in commons in the public, and you use the token as just a system of allocating, like, who is able to, live in which particular apartment or house because and at the same time, you can, I think, pretty easily programmatically put in, like, if this is a single mom or something like that with, with kids, their their token would give them a right to a house with more rooms for their children to play in versus, I don't know, someone who's, like, a single guy who doesn't need that much space?",
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                      "text": "So I think that's, like that is decommoditizing, housing and relying less on the markets and is something that, like, I think in a world where we aren't so, like, reliant on free markets could be possible or utilizing kind of, like, public housing already existing public housing systems around the world, I think is, like, one thing that I'm that I've thought about that I think is is interesting.",
                      "start": 4323.955,
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                    {
                      "text": "How do",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "you think the, like, government welfare structure is like, how how different do you think it is from what you're presenting here?",
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                      "text": "Quite different.",
                      "start": 4360.4253,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, the logic in a lot of welfare systems is very, like, me it's I mean, there's means testing in a way that is, like, quite, like, needlessly punitive, I guess.",
                      "start": 4361.145,
                      "end": 4373.42
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That a lot of in order to get welfare, especially in The US, like, you have you have the amount of paperwork that you have to give them before you're even able to get anything is, like, pretty monstrous.",
                      "start": 4373.96,
                      "end": 4384.265
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's sort of, like, just kinda, like, punishing people for being poor.",
                      "start": 4385.4453,
                      "end": 4388.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, they're already in a bad situation, and then, like, also you want to, like they have to come in, you know, once a week for, like, a drug test or whatever else, like, that's taking away time for them to be able to, like, care for their families or to, like, find a job or whatever else.",
                      "start": 4388.725,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "I think it's, quite different.",
                      "start": 4401.6597,
                      "end": 4403.58
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "It's just, like, yeah.",
                      "start": 4403.58,
                      "end": 4406.195
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                    {
                      "text": "It depends on, like, the logic that's embedded inside of it.",
                      "start": 4406.195,
                      "end": 4408.275
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                    {
                      "text": "Because what is another great fear of mine, actually, is that blockchains do get used by, existing public institutions, but in the logic of the already existing system, that's quite punitive.",
                      "start": 4408.275,
                      "end": 4421.04
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                    {
                      "text": "So, yeah, I hope that answers this question.",
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                      "text": "I guess to start off, I I would say I like what you said about working with existing institutions because you you talk a lot about this parallelism, right, with these new structures.",
                      "start": 4423.98,
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                    {
                      "text": "But I'd be curious to know what your thoughts on of crisis playing a role in this shift.",
                      "start": 4433.9,
                      "end": 4441.4653
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "If you look at Bitcoin, you know, this can't this was spun out of a crisis, right, a banking crisis.",
                      "start": 4442.4053,
                      "end": 4449.0454
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                    {
                      "text": "So it was it was a direct response to that.",
                      "start": 4449.0454,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, yeah, I'm and and and to to to the sort of original, like, Delusion point, when you're doing this kind of schizo analytic framework, with rhizomes and the systems and and and how how you how how you present them, you know, what kind of prevents not your own personal politics, but politics in general devolving into essentially being being a pirate.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 4476.655,
                      "end": 4476.895
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, you're you're kind of, riding you're building the ship with, you know, the small group, that you've coalesced, and you you guys are just trying to get through the storm.",
                      "start": 4476.895,
                      "end": 4487.41
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So I I I wanna contrast that with sort of the conventional, you know, notion of socialism as, you know, a movement a real collectivist movement.",
                      "start": 4487.41,
                      "end": 4497.43
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So",
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                      "text": "So into your to your earlier points about crisis and the role of crisis, I think yeah.",
                      "start": 4498.7446,
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                    {
                      "text": "What what brought about neoliberalism was the crisis, like, in the seventies of, like, stagflation.",
                      "start": 4504.105,
                      "end": 4509.8047
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Like, that was ultimately, like, the moment when things, like, really shifted.",
                      "start": 4510.2803,
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                    {
                      "text": "The entire world was, like, under a crisis and people were just, like, looking for new ideas and the one that already existed was neoliberalism.",
                      "start": 4513.8804,
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                    {
                      "text": "There's already a huge movement.",
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                      "text": "I mean, not a movement, but, like, a lot of money behind this type of thinking of, like, free market fundamentalism that began way before, you know, 1970 whatever it was, whenever it started to to come up.",
                      "start": 4524.005,
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                    {
                      "text": "And so, like, I think there is At least",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "the meme is, 1972.",
                      "start": 4539.62,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 4541.46,
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 4541.78,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 4542.1,
                      "end": 4542.6
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                    {
                      "text": "But, yeah.",
                      "start": 4543.1396,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, like, it's it's a so, like, I think it was, like, Naomi Klein or, like, shock doctrine.",
                      "start": 4544.82,
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                    {
                      "text": "I think she wrote a lot about this that, like, in moments of crisis that it's, like, used as a point whenever, like, nobody's kind of, like, able to pay attention or looking for, like, massive changes to happen, a lot of times for the worse, in the benefit of, like, those who already have a lot.",
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                      "text": "And that's how, like, we tend to have really big changes in in the world.",
                      "start": 4568.16,
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                    {
                      "text": "It's, like, after these crises, like, so I think considering that, I think that means sort of, acknowledging that there's a need to, like, build collect like, a collective of sorts, a movement of sorts before the crisis happens because by the time the crisis happens, it's too late.",
                      "start": 4572.3203,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, you're not you're not ready for what's happening.",
                      "start": 4594.73,
                      "end": 4597.69
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, if there was some sort of greater movement before Occupy Wall Street that was more organized and more, you know, whatever, it probably would have been a lot more successful than than it has been or than than it was, even though it was a well intentioned, you know, people were angry.",
                      "start": 4597.69,
                      "end": 4614.4546
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                    {
                      "text": "But it's just, like, constant thing where there is this reaction to to crises happening.",
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                      "text": "So I think that there is just, like, yeah.",
                      "start": 4622.755,
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                    {
                      "text": "The need to build infrastructure before before the crisis and to so that you're ready for whenever the crisis does happen because, I mean, if you I mean, just capitalism just, like, guarantees crises.",
                      "start": 4624.9697,
                      "end": 4637.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "That's, like, par for the course.",
                      "start": 4637.37,
                      "end": 4638.89
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 4638.89,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 4639.13,
                      "end": 4639.37
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                    {
                      "text": "So so, like, like, I guess that's kind of why I was going into the whole schizo analysis.",
                      "start": 4639.37,
                      "end": 4643.585
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 4643.585,
                      "end": 4643.905
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Because I wanna kind of pick your brain about what your teleological view is of this.",
                      "start": 4643.905,
                      "end": 4650.225
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 4650.225,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Like, is it that at at the there will be a crisis and then, you know, society sort of remade in this new image?",
                      "start": 4650.465,
                      "end": 4659.01
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or is this something to help not promote the status quo, right, but is part of is a mechanism of stability.",
                      "start": 4659.01,
                      "end": 4665.9897
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Right?",
                      "start": 4666.13,
                      "end": 4666.53
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                    {
                      "text": "So so so so, you know, is this socialism, a stabilizing, you know, equalizing force?",
                      "start": 4667.01,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Or is this socialism something that arises after the crisis, right, when, you know, there are these tools lying around for others to pick up and and and and continue?",
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                  ],
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "And so I guess that that's sort of my my my main,",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "yeah, point.",
                      "start": 4689.98,
                      "end": 4690.8
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Yeah.",
                      "start": 4690.94,
                      "end": 4691.0996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Because I'm not sure.",
                      "start": 4691.0996,
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                    {
                      "text": "I mean, I'm not like, I wouldn't be able to make the prediction on that, I guess.",
                      "start": 4691.82,
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                    {
                      "text": "I'm more interested to just see, like, I don't know what works, essentially.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Like, I don't it and it's, for me, still hard to say how exactly that will that will pan out.",
                      "start": 4704.8853,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "It percent.",
                      "start": 4710.725,
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, my take on that and and, you know, like, leaving aside an immense amount of complexity, but my entire fascination with, like, Bitcoin specifically and to whatever lesser extent these other systems have have similar features.",
                      "start": 4711.285,
                      "end": 4726.04
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But this idea that there it it's it it's put dismissively, but it was like a meme that became a collective action that actually built something.",
                      "start": 4726.0996,
                      "end": 4737.335
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And, obviously, it's rooted in a lot of stuff that I think, you know, a lot of us would dispute on fundamental ideological grounds.",
                      "start": 4738.355,
                      "end": 4745.52
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "But, nonetheless, in terms of, you know, speaking to the crisis, like, it really does appear to now be something that can at least have, as you said, not necessarily status quo, but, like, some sort of protective effect.",
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                      "text": "Something that in particular, if you're coming from, like, the neoliberal institutionalist perspective and you believe that, like, the the government is gonna take care of everything, basically, there is now this model for, in a digital way, building an alternative that can be you know, maybe it's not the structure that we would like it to be, but it is nonetheless the structure that can exist past the crisis.",
                      "start": 4761.0747,
                      "end": 4789.7246
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "And it does exist.",
                      "start": 4790.025,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "You know, it's really there.",
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                      "text": "And and there are obviously, I'm leaving out a ton of complexities.",
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                      "text": "But, and and I think that, like, if you go down to a more granular level and maybe it it's about money and maybe it's about other things, but there are these other structures that you can build outside of the institutions, that that then can be, yeah, there for the crisis or or mitigate the crisis or however you wanna put it.",
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                      "text": "And I think that's one of the, for me, really fascinating things about all of this is that it's a model for exactly, I think, part of what you're talking about with all the hairy downsides and and not quite things that we would wish them to be that that comes with that.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Thank you for the book and podcast.",
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                      "text": "I guess I have a couple couple short questions, based on your sense of the ecosystem, sort of demographic questions.",
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                      "text": "Like, what percentage of builders in the space would you say identify as being leftist?",
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                      "text": "And then also, what percentage of builders are women, and what percentage of them are not from the global north?",
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                      "text": "All of them are lower than I would like them to be.",
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                      "text": "It's really hard to say.",
                      "start": 4865.82,
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                      "text": "I mean, I think it has it has changed interestingly over the years.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Like, I don't know.",
                      "start": 4870.8447,
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                      "text": "I was at ETH Barcelona a couple of weeks ago, and there were, like, a surprising amount of people who at least consider themselves to be on the left that I was able to meet or find, I don't know, just kind of like by accident, I guess.",
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                      "text": "I do remember, like, when I lived I lived in New York for a year when I was supposed to get into stuff, and I would go to, like, these crypto events and it would be, like, I mean, pretty horrible, like, the type of, like, politics a lot of the people were espousing.",
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                      "text": "It's still the case a lot of the time, the politics that people are espousing, no doubt.",
                      "start": 4901.0947,
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                      "text": "But there has been, like, a growth in, like, these pockets, I think, of people who are not thinking about it in in that way.",
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                      "text": "So yeah.",
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                      "text": "And I do think I mean, I don't know.",
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                      "text": "My impression talking to women at some of these conferences is that they do think usually, they're ones who come from, like, traditional tech or traditional, finance or something like that.",
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                      "text": "Like, I've heard that they've said that there are more women at crypto things than at the traditional whatever financial tech things that they would normally go to.",
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                      "text": "I can't really confirm that necessarily.",
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                      "text": "And, and I guess there are I don't know.",
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                      "text": "At least at least in Europe, the places that I've been to, I've met quite a few people who come from a lot of the time I mean, there's a lot of people from, like, South America who are building that I've probably met quite a few.",
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                      "text": "But, yeah, ultimately, there needs to be more or there should be more, I think.",
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                      "text": "That's really hard to say.",
                      "start": 4966.52,
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                      "text": "I think but the thing is that, like, a lot of people don't label themselves.",
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                      "text": "They don't say like, they don't want to be labeled to be a certain thing.",
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                      "text": "And I get that.",
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                      "text": "I understand it.",
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                      "text": "I've sort of taken on the horrible duty of labeling myself, who I am and just being honest with it because I feel fairly confident in it and, like, willing to engage in discussion about it, and I don't mind it.",
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                      "text": "But I think a lot of people don't have a coherent politics, generally.",
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                      "text": "And that's not, like, meaning I'm not saying, like, like, they're dumb or whatever because they have that.",
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                      "text": "It's just that we don't it's not like everybody takes the insane amount of time it takes to, like, read whatever big political theory books to then say, like, oh, yes.",
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                      "text": "I am this, and I can defend all of my positions for everything all the time because it's, like, a weird sort of responsibility to put on yourself, you know.",
                      "start": 5006.645,
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                      "text": "So it's it's hard to say.",
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                      "text": "I think a lot there are a lot of people who have, like, progressive tendencies and, like, have kind of, like, good intentions and wanting to create things that are more egalitarian and democratic and whatever else, but that they don't necessarily put it under the bucket of a particular political name is what I find most often.",
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                      "text": "I would just add one thought to the question about demographics, which is, having sort of to echo what your your your informant told you, which is that having kind of been in the traditional tech space and being in some of those spaces, and then kind of looking at what's happening in crypto.",
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                      "text": "I mean, just the the sheer the simple fact that it is set up in a way where, you know, political borders don't have that much influence, does have a genuine impact.",
                      "start": 5054.6997,
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                      "text": "And there are major projects, that come from absolutely every corner of the world.",
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                      "text": "I mean, an example that I try out a lot of the time is, I don't know if people know this, but the team that built Etherscan is based in, I believe Malaysia or Indonesia.",
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                      "text": "I might be getting that slightly wrong.",
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                      "text": "But that's like a key clutch part of the entire ecosystem, built by people way outside of, like, the Silicon Valley venture capital sphere.",
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                      "text": "And there are a lot of examples of that.",
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                      "text": "And and so I you know, not to, like, try and simplify it into, like, percentages or whatever, but, like, there really is some, like, expansiveness to the space and the people who are involved that I think can be for very material.",
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                      "text": "Speaking of, like, let's be materialist about it.",
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                      "text": "Right?",
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                      "text": "Like, for material reasons in terms of the way that technology is set up, that does have, an impact in opening doors.",
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                      "text": "And you can really see it if you're out there kind of interacting with people in the space.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "I have to agree with that.",
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                      "text": "That tends to be missed by a lot of critics.",
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                      "text": "I think that seems like a good stopping point.",
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                      "text": "I think we'll all many of us will be hanging around for a little while longer here.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "I'll be fine.",
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                      "text": "If you wanna chat with Josh, he's here.",
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                      "text": "And I do you have books for sale?",
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                      "text": "If you've bought, like, the $30 ticket, then I will sign a book for you and give it to you.",
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                      "text": "I have the box down right there.",
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                      "text": "We can do that right now, more or less.",
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                      "text": "But yeah.",
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                      "text": "And then if you if you didn't, I don't know.",
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                      "text": "If you have $20, I'll give you a book.",
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                      "text": "And then, just for the purpose of the recording, if you wanna follow me, I'm on Twitter at at david c morris.",
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                      "text": "And is there anything you wanna kinda plug, on the way out here?",
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                      "text": "Please buy the book.",
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                      "text": "I guess, yeah, you have one thing.",
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                      "text": "Yeah.",
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                      "text": "Okay.",
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                      "text": "Well, thank you so much, Josh Davila, for, for writing the book, for coming out and doing this.",
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