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Again, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings nonviolent. Message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our web three community has maybe not taken the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential. Hey, guys. What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four. I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person. Devcon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon. So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and blockchain socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist. Hi everyone. You're listening again to another one of the short interviews that I'm doing while in Thailand for, for DevCon. I'm here at Funding the Commons during the Design Jam, part of all the days that they're organizing, and I'm here with Tony Lai. We were just talking about, before I started recording, about many different things, and one in particular to kind of hone in on is this idea of how to, I guess, embody our politics is maybe one way to say it. But actually quick introduction, you are the other half of Mother Tree Labs? Indeed, I mean we're a collective currently of two, but we're constantly bringing in, new friends and family as part of our work. But Mother Tree Labs, is a non profit initiative started by Susanna Aikala and myself. Susanna brings the narrative engineering side of things, and I bring the legal engineering side of things. And so we say it's the law and the law, and those sound the same in my accent. I think it's Australian. It says law and the law. Well, English, Australia, anywhere. I mean, we all get into the overlaps as well as the differences in, these two, I guess, systems of knowing. Yeah. And one thing that both of us are incredibly interested in is the movement beyond just being in our heads and moving into our bodies, and ultimately the idea of spirit, the idea of, emotions and psychology, this aspect of, like, consciousness shifting that might be maybe lacking or minimized within the current sort of late stage capitalist dynamic. To the extent there is something that we might worship, we could say it is capital itself, within that dynamic. And so the interesting prompts that you gave me was, the current context that we're in. Yeah. So like, the way that I like to so, right, we're we're like the day after more it's hard with Asian time. Trump was elected again, and at least, you know, for some people, like at least at least for me, this was something that I am not nearly as surprised about. I mean for a lot of people it was not like a surprise. What it it's more felt like it's felt much worse actually than a surprise it's felt. The only way I can describe it is like we're all strapped to a chair and we're on the conveyor belt seeing at the end of what's coming and we can't really move. You know, the other day I was talking with a friend of mine, the co founder of Petchain goes by cassandra. Ish, it's because he, you know, likes the myth of Cassandra in which she is like unable to like change basically the the future that she knows that she's coming, all she can do is like kind of scream at people and like yell at them like why are you doing nothing? I think a lot of people feel this way, and they feel kind of like quite nihilistic. I mean it's like very hard right now to see, at this moment in time at least, like too much hope at the same time in the crypto space. Of course there were a lot of people who were, supporting Trump, who were behind him because he's going to save our tokens. I know I sent out a video essay right before about how the Left does not hate crypto as a way to kind of just like help because part of the narrative, a part of that is that like the left, Kamala Harris, is somehow considered the left in a lot of these people's brains, is like, you know, going to destroy everything that they stand for and then destroy democracy and whatever else. Each half of like the sides are just like, yeah, unable to seem to like there's there doesn't seem to be any pathway or bridge to like dissolving all of this conflict in, not in late like hippie liberal way, but like in a like necessary practical, like we live together in a society, we need to like come together and make things better, so like, yeah I guess I was curious how how do we kind of, not only like stay out of the realm of like just thinking about how horrible it is, but then like embodying, putting into practice like the things that are actually necessary for the mind as well to, yeah, move past this? I mean that's a really It's a big question. Big question. I I wanna Maybe just like how do you do it or like how how would you suggest it? I mean it's I wanna reference this particular community that we're in, without going too far beyond to, sort of like, the general population of The US or the rest of the world, I mean, because the US election impacts the rest of the world in a big way, and there's a lot of people around the world who have had their eyes on it. But our community in particular, this Web three community, is in some ways very much premised upon, this idea of empowerment, this idea of participation, this idea that any idea that that is put out there is only as good as how it's put into practice. And because it's an open source ecosystem, how it's put into practice can be taken from one place and reapplied pretty much at, you know, zero cost except for the cost of actually doing that local contextualization. That principle is a is a principle of getting out of the conveyor belt. It's, it's it's the idea that, you know, we have the tools to actually start building our own vehicles and, like, not following this train off the cliff, but actually, you know, stepping inside and building building some other vectors of movement. And I think that the message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our Web three community has maybe not taken, the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential. So what does it look like? We we talked about embodied politics, but there's a there's a range of things that, sort of, that play out in this area. We've got politics, policy, and the ways in which laws are made and what laws should be made, and then governance in terms of, like, how those laws are sort of played out. You've got enforcement systems. You've got various different ways that you wanna be able to enable a system of transparency around who's doing what so that you can have some common, stable coordination framework. What does it mean to embody that? Because I think what we've had a lot of focus on in our crypto and Web three point zero world is the informational side of things. You've got the, the ways in which we measure certain things, like, the level of with BreadChain you've got a The market cap of tokenism. Exactly. The market cap of tokens. The number of users you have. The number of, Devs. Yeah. Devs. And and all of these things are informational pieces, but, like, what we get in a space like this with Funding the Commons is that in person embodied sort of activation, and the idea that we might start to embody our governance through these mechanisms of, like, in person attunement, making decisions that are a part of, the realities of a particular locality, the realities of a particular locality, or the realities of a particular place in a space. I think the beautiful thing that I've seen coming out of Funding the Commons being in all these different locations is that we do get a different cross section of local participants who are coming because they see the potential in this wider ideology of the commons, this wider ideology of, you know, socialism, sort of but also but beyond socialism, it's sort of like this treating the other as, in some way, part of yourself. Like that, there's some underlying sort of spiritual dynamic that is common in many, many different traditions of religion, but that is being embodied here within Web three as part of a series of technical and sort of convening based functions. Mhmm. And what I'm hearing you, and part of what our previous conversation was about is that there is this, in a sense, almost missing piece that we can sort of, like, reanimate in terms of not just narrative, but the ways in which we step into Web three point zero as a belief system that is about these fundamental dynamics of building a commons, nurturing a future that is participatory, that allows us to not feel like we are on a conveyor belt. And I think that's part of the system of institutions that we've seen, like, get increasingly more and more powerful and more centralized over the last, you know, century or more. That is creaking now. Yeah. Right? And we're seeing in these elections, and one way to embody the realities of the the elections that happened is just to know that there has been a sort of series of disruptions that are continuing to happen, and, like, the ways that we can find our communities, certainly within the Web3 space, is to gather, to reconvene, to be with each other, and to work on these elements of care that are real in the physical world. And that care can involve in person care, food systems, shelter, mutual aid groups, the sorts of things that actually have happened in various different places around the world when there are disasters. And, you know, while this may not be, like, a natural disaster, there's the you can some people might consider it a political disaster. Again, coming together in those physical embodied mutual aid dynamics, just like we're gathering here, is I feel like part of that journey towards embodied knowing of these potential new systems as well. Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that there is, you know, I have plenty of critiques about Web three point zero generally as a concept, or marketing more so as like a VC marketing narrative, but then there is something, I mean one of the things I was thinking about last night was like it kind of actually, for me, solidified like we actually probably stay in this space because right now the institutions are are failing us, and it's kind of like, I don't know, at a certain point there's something of course terrifying and freeing about just like, you know, in some in some ways like our heroes are dead, they're not coming to save us, so like, you now have the mantle to and you are smart enough to go and take part and build it yourself. And maybe to build off of something you were talking about with Susanna in terms of moving beyond this idea of the Hero's Journey, I think that idea that you need to be the hero or that that that the hero is is not gonna come and save you, again, maybe that's not a bad thing because it helps people get over that hero's journey. And you start thinking more about, like, what's the container? Like like because this idea of the carrier bag theory of fiction that Ursula Le Guin points out is, like, it's not about the person who goes out and, like, slays the mammoth. I mean, it makes a great story, but it's about the hearth, the home, the the carrier bag of oats that kind of and and those are harder stories to tell, but they're also much more communal stories to tell. They're more embodied stories of, like, the practice of being together, of making a home together, of caring for each other. These are the, you know, some may call them mundane, but actually they they do form the fabric of the kinds of embodied belonging and embodied care chains. And, you know, the care chains speak to this idea that if we care for those around us, we don't need to necessarily care for every single, like, thing that's grabbing our attention on the sort of, like, global stage. There are people immediately around us that have relationships with us already that are caring for others, and if we care for them, you know, that that thing will continue. And and again, that element of re grounding in the care, in the local, I think is, yeah, maybe part of this unfurling that's happening with institutions doing their thing, and this space in particular offering potentially even more hope now for for for many folks. And, I mean, this was, in some sense, part of the allure of Bhutan, which is where we were just before we came to Thailand. Bhutan offers this narrative, but also a spiritual cultural tradition that has been guarded and protected, and that is now held within the context of a fairly small kingdom, but which is offering this sort of, like, Switzerland of Asia with a sort of, like, strong spiritual, mindful grounding possibility, deeply woven with Web three. Right? That's the other thing. Right? The the the king and the prime minister and their whole, sort of leadership has sort of taken a deep, dive into digital currencies and Web three because they are a, you know, the first nature positive country. They've got this little, sort of, little group of net zero and nature positive countries, and they're trying to craft this post capitalist imagination. Right? And that, in the context of what just happened last night, I think is just gonna be even more, like, not just appealing, but sort of like, something that can be taken and it doesn't need to just be in I think Bhutan's got something very special going on, but there's a lot of these places that have been waiting for a moment to be able to say, we've been building, we've been growing things, and we hold a space for this imagination that we it's a container, but we want you to come and grow with us. And I think that dynamic of with you, it it's it is gonna take on even more salience now, I think, and that's the hopeful narrative. Yeah, I think the best way to handle these things is always to try and I mean, definitely for those, and not everyone has it unfortunately, but it is to find, you know, the embodied solidarity with others that you can feel safe with, as much as you can. But yeah, I guess what is the so you were recently in Bhutan, maybe there's maybe that's something interesting to explain a bit about. What were you doing in Bhutan and what was there? And yeah, I think part of this seems to me like this the slow breaking apart of the American empire, and whatever, this move towards a multipolar world that seems to be happening eventually at least, while the, you know, The US kind of like flails its arms up in the air, perhaps is leading to now, like, just different countries, new players that have been kind of in the background for so long, have been able to take advantage of, like, the cracks in the system to maybe come out with something different. I don't want to write off America completely. I think America with its system has done some incredible, incredible things in the world. But there's, there's certainly a view of America that many Americans may not have had of America that is sort of being re cemented right now with, with the current political, situation. And the narrative that Bhutan offers is is almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction. They've explicitly spoken to rejecting the concept of gross domestic product, and they've, like, focused in on this idea of gross national happiness. They recently held their first innovation forum, which was a thousand plus person event, largest international gathering that they've held in Bhutan, that was just last month, and I was there early in the year as well when they sort of had a trial run with a sustainable financing for Tiger Landscapes conference. Again, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep, Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings, non violence, you know, a lot of these, like, sort of fundamental dynamics that are Yeah, to some extent, maybe very, very out of sync with a capitalist world. And what's being proposed is some form of a bridge. They're they're calling it the Gelofu Mindfulness City. It's based around a town in Southern Bhutan called Gelofu, but the idea is that it might provide an alternative or an adjacent additionality to the conventional development, but which somehow grounds mindfulness as part of a pathway to a different sort of approach to the commons, approach to finance. There's a lot of experts who have been looking at nature based capital, nature based finance, who are looking at the kinds of regulations that they might require from a jurisdiction. And this would be a new jurisdiction, a sort of like a special economic zone, special administrative region, not too similar to Hong Kong, and then sort of modeling after sort of a Dubai and a Singapore, but again with this notion that there's something unique around a tradition that doesn't focus just on production and consumption. That sounds like almost like the but that's like the that sounds like the opposite of what most special economic zones are. Exactly. They're like free trade 100. 100%. And I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that unfolds. We've been invited to offer recommendations in various different capacities and Tell them to stay away from network states. Network nations is the meme that we've been, with Pimavera. And again, I think that meme itself is maybe a bit close to network states. So but the the the fundamental idea is very different in terms of, like, trying to build for collaborative dynamics. Sure, sure, sure. There's a lot of things happening in AI right now, obviously. What does it look like to have collaborative licensing mechanisms around the data and the training data for these large language models? How might we actually create alternatives to the sort of, like, hoovering that is happening with some of those dynamics? There's, like, collaborative, mechanisms that can be baked into tokens that sort of govern the sharing of that that we're working on with Primavera and and and others as part of this sort of collaborative AI and IP consortium that, again, would be hopefully looking to be able to bring in some respects in that Bhutanese context. So they've got their eye on a lot of different developments that are happening, and they're sort of opening space. They're creating a container for imagining. And so from our perspective, those of us who've been there, it's, again been a very embodied experience because you go there and you feel the nature of the land, the nature around you, the people who are there and their goodwill, their intentions. Also their wit. They're not like, you know, just like slavish sort of like adorers and followers. They they have, you know, that acerbic wit, which is just beautiful to feel as a Brit, somebody who, like, you know, loves a bit of banter. Like, just to receive that, be on the receiving end of banter just, like, makes you realize that, okay, this is a culture that, you know, has, like, their own traditions and their, like, pride, but it's an embodied sort of, like, wisdom that doesn't come along with just, like, sitting in the chair and being driven along a conveyor belt. There is some sort of, like, get up and go. Nelip, an amazing entrepreneur here, who's from Bhutan but lives in Thailand, and he's been telling us a lot about his hopes for this mindfulness city and what it means for Bhutanese who've gone abroad and who might now come home, but be able to sort of, like, bring what they've learned from abroad. And so it's a multi angle approach. We've been doing our best to support it, it's an incredibly inspiring vision and a space for imagination. And that's alongside other places like the Amazon. We've been welcomed by the Amazon Sacred Headwaters Alliance, which is a group of indigenous, federations and nations in Ecuador and Peru. Our hope is that what we can learn and do with Bhutan, we might be able to unfurl and support the learning of in a in a different context. Yeah. And again, it's a very embodied experience to go there and to feel the existing imagination and world Right. That has been built and and maintained for generations. Right? That that that that that is something that gives you this embodied sense of, ah, I can remember. That my my body sort of knows that this is actually the way that life can be and the world can be and we can relate to each other as Earthkin, as like the like family in a way that like transcends these individualistic sort of primogeniture style bloodlines of, you know, Western Europe, and like moves into this more sort of like I am who I am because of you, the Ubuntu, the sort of like the you know, these different dynamics of self that can exist in this, you know, quasi spiritual dimension. But I think that's, to your point, is somewhat what socialism is. It's somewhat what not being entirely individualistic in your ideologies is about. It's about actually leaning in, not just with your body, but with your soul or your spirit or your undescended self in some way to the realities, the lived experience realities of that and what it can do for your just being, or your the way that you live your life. I think it is a it's hard. It's hard when you've been so stuck in this system of status and seeing and how much capital you have and, like, the heroes there to get yourself into this space, but by living with and alongside people who've been doing it. I mean, again, this comes back to this idea of what does it mean to embody and and living alongside and embodying with and becoming with and finding opportunities and and and receiving the invitations and offering others the invitation to do that and and have that kind of embodied imagination together. Right. Right. Right. And it doesn't need to be in Bhutan or in the Amazon. It can also be alongside our local river. Like, a dear, dear friend, has just been gathering people to clean up his local river, the River Roding, and he's, like, made that a spiritual endeavor with the with the locals of his little town in England. It's beautiful. Beautiful to see. And then he went and took that glass of river water, and when he was called for jury duty, he he was like, if it's okay with you, I'm not gonna take my oath on the Bible because that's not my spirituality. My spirituality is my river. Can I take my oath on a glass of the river Roding? And they let they let him do it. First time that ever happened. And then these little they're kind of quasi structured, but they're rituals. They're rituals of doing and embodying that gives people, Woah, that's so cool. I wanna do that. Right? So then what are like so, yeah, I think, one of the things that so I did a really nice hike, up to one of the temples in Chiang Mai. I'm just like really struck by, you know, these temples being there for like thousands of years. I think also just coming from a Western context. One of the things that we were joking about is like, you know, in these Buddhist temples, the image that you see of the person, of the statues are often like, they're relaxed. They're like cross legged, like either focused or they're laying down completely relaxed. Yeah. But like, really fascinating because you think about at least like Christianity, you know, the image is Jesus on the cross dying. Yeah. You know, like, it's like if I was Jesus coming back, you know, there's a friend a joke that our friend Beth made, where it was like, you know, like why did they pick Jesus's worst moments to, like, make the infinite image that people see that then represents Christianity, that definitely has downstream effects, and I think within Christian thoughts and like, shame, sacrifice, shame, and like, you know, death and rebirth, and like, there's something with the breath, like, you know, Buddhists are, they're like praying to a guy who's chilling. You know, it's very crude to say it. But they're not even praying to him, they're praying to the version of themselves that he's inspiring. Sure, yeah. And you see that they're like, Thai people are just like very kind. Yeah. It's been incredible, like they're such kind people. I haven't met like anyone who's been like really chill, like they're able to like just like receive whatever it is that gets thrown at them and give back love. I felt that on numerous occasions. I felt myself be ashamed on a previous journey to Thailand. It was what I was I happened to be with some beautiful friends who were deep enough friends with me that they called me in, right? But I was an asshole, this previous time, and I was just not nice. I was trying to throw my weight around, and they received it, and they were super kind and everything, and it was only thanks to my friends calling me in the next day, and they're like, dude, that was kinda not cool. I was like, yeah, fuck. Yeah. I'm an asshole. But but it's there's so many beautiful examples in this culture in Thailand because of that that, can sometimes get missed, I think. Mhmm. Because of there is this sort of, this layer of assumptions that we bring as just visitors to a country that can often lead us to have different expectations. And I think one of the beautiful things about being able to come to a country and, be invited and also be inviting of, people who have been living here for for quite some time to actually be imagining together, you feel less like a visitor. You feel like a co creator. Mhmm. And through that lens, you get to really start to unfurl these, like, deeper cultural reference points around, yeah, non violence, like being chill. You go to a temple and you see a monk who's, like, spending the time there just happily explaining to you, like, you know, whatever you wanna chat about. Like, nine till six, they're there, and they're, like, open monk chats. There's these incredible, as you're saying, like, images of, not just, like, sort of Buddhas, like, sort of lying down, but, like, Buddhas who have, like, sprouted multiple heads because they need additional faces for all the different compassion. Mhmm. That they're, you know, the the the the Buddha of compassion has all of these, like, sprouting heads, and it's just this idea that compassion is this beautiful thing to be treasured, and that you can constantly be creating these new versions of yourself to be able to find compassion in a new direction. And so what, you know, what does it look like to have compassion for an individual like the new leader of the free world? Right? Because of whatever context that they had growing up, you know, that leads them to be this angry, violent, word spewing individual because of a need for some kind of dominance. And, like, I mean, it's tough sometimes, but, like, I can see how that cultural and worldview just, like, sets a totally different grounding for some of these imaginings to happen. And so it is a deep pleasure to be here. It's a deep pleasure to be here after being in Bhutan because I think being in Bhutan helped me see that side of things here with greater clarity as well. And I think we all get to see different cultures and different people with new eyes every single time if we choose to. And I think that's also the beauty of, like, getting off of the railroad. Getting off of the The conveyor belt. Yeah. The conveyor belt. It's actually giving yourself the space to see things with with new eyes. Sure. And and feel things with, with a new body even. So like, yeah, I think the the experience of getting being now in this just like very different cultural context, you know, and actually understanding the or at least noticing the difference in how people interact and embody themselves, and like, embody themselves in like the micro politics of the everyday. So one of the things we were talking about before is like, you know, the way I framed it was like, you know, does the Left need a kind of etiquette? Like how do how do we embody ourselves to each other in a way that we can, you know, actually acknowledge that we're all going through a tough time probably, we're all like, dealing with the same shit that everybody else is dealing with, So, like, what you're you're questioning, like, you know, what is the, you know, the first thing, but if you guys so if we just met at a party, like, what would be the first question you would ask someone? Like, how would you begin to to meet someone and make new connections? Someone in a way that is, like, detached from, like, our tradition like, the usual questions of what do you do? You know? And again, we were just joking that that question is actually seeking to position you in this sort of capitalist system. It's like how much do you earn? It's like this sort of like how much capital do you have? So the different questions, might be, framed around sort of understanding someone's context. Right? So it's sort of like, oh, where do you feel local these days? Or, it can be, you know, we talked about this idea of attuning to a paradox and, that was just one that that came up. But it's sort of like, yeah, how how do you attune? So, we just missed the last question that, I asked Tony because my camera is unable to record more than 30, but, yeah, so we can, what was the the question I asked was what type of question do you think, like, if we were to meet in a party, what question would you ask someone to kind of break the the normal capitalist etiquette into a more post capitalism, a more verbal one? We talked about the default capitalist questions being like, What do you do? The underlying tone being, how much do you earn? How much capital do you have? Where do I rank you in this sort of, like, capitalist hierarchy that's, like, built into my brain? I hate that question. Generally questions that, put people slightly into a space of not having answered it before. You want to bring people into a creative space, a co creative space, ideally. So I have taken to asking questions like how do you attune to a paradox? Or what contradictions have you been dealing with in your life? And it's, it's a pretty heavy one to sort of, like, kick off with, but it also, like I said, it kind of takes people out of that default thread. And I think that, for me, is one of those areas where joy is found. I play music mostly through improvisation, I don't really play songs that have been written out, and it's fun, but it's not the kind of full joy space that I like to embody, and I think it's the same as with conversations. If a conversation is coming from a space of creativity, it's not being rehearsed, but it's actually just coming out of a space of thought and having to consider and imagine, that's the space I think we need to get into with our sort of crypto socialist ethic, this, etiquette of originality when it comes to our diplomacies. I think diplomacy is something that, you know, we're definitely taking out of the nation state space and putting into our, like, empowered we can actually build relationships that have these deeper, more fundamental, long term impact. Etiquettes to the ways that we, you know, offer each other space for co creative imagination, and and explicitly take people out of that default mode network of capitalist thinking and into this space of, oh, we can be a bit creative here. We can be a bit fun here. We can actually open up into a bit of, like, potential vulnerability space or even complexity, right? The idea that you don't need to have the solid, acceptable answer in any context, but things can be complicated. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the risks and joys of asking these types of questions, of course, is a way that you can do it that's like kind of annoying, but then there's a way you can do it that I think that is like actually like productive is like that if you do ask a question then, and they act weird about it, like you will then get to quickly know are they with it a little bit as well. It's also a bit of a vibe check of course, as well. But I think it it like helps people I think part of being a post capitalist subject is that you then are pushed into thinking about yourself in a system, in the world, and not just what do you do, is just sort of like this is the cog, like this is the cog that I'm in without thinking about the machine, like what contradictions are you dealing with or like, you know, I know I'm within a system that has all these things going on, and I have to react to them in many ways that maybe go against my what I would normally do otherwise or whatever else, and just acknowledges that we're all dealing with contradictions, and that's kind of okay. It also opens up space for difficult things. And most of the time, it's hard to talk about difficult things. But if we can create containers for that, and we're actually expressing an interest and curiosity in Mhmm. Not just the simple answer. I'm not just gonna categorize you. I'm actually here to maybe offer a bit of care. Right? I think these these are the sorts of, like, out of default, oh, this is interesting. This is not normal. Like, somebody is actually really interested in me as a whole person, that's kind of cool. Yeah, yeah. So there you go, that's how you have post capitalist etiquette, ask weird questions at parties, you're becoming really popular. With the right kind of crew. Thanks. Thank you so much. This is so awesome. 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"confidence": 0.77643555, "punctuated_word": "my", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.09593701 }, { "word": "god", "start": 2162.975, "end": 2163.475, "confidence": 0.7584853, "punctuated_word": "god.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.09593701 } ], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": { "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: So we talked about the default sort of capitalist questions being sort of like, what do you do? Like, the underlying sort of tone being how much do you earn? How much capital do you have? Where do I rank you in this sort of, like, capitalist hierarchy that's, like, built into my brain? I hate that question.\n\nAgain, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings nonviolent. Message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our web three community has maybe not taken the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hey, guys. What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four. I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person. Devcon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon. So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and blockchain socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hi\n\nSpeaker 1: everyone. You're listening again to another one of the short interviews that I'm doing while in Thailand for, for DevCon. I'm here at Funding the Commons during the Design Jam, part of all the days that they're organizing, and I'm here with Tony Lai. We were just talking about, before I started recording, about many different things, and one in particular to kind of hone in on is this idea of how to, I guess, embody our politics is maybe one way to say it. But actually quick introduction, you are the other half of Mother Tree Labs?\n\nSpeaker 0: Indeed, I mean we're a collective currently of two, but we're constantly bringing in, new friends and family as part of our work. But Mother Tree Labs, is a non profit initiative started by Susanna Aikala and myself. Susanna brings the narrative engineering side of things, and I bring the legal engineering side of things. And so we say it's the law and the law, and those sound the same in\n\nSpeaker 1: my accent. I think it's Australian. It says law and the law.\n\nSpeaker 0: Well, English, Australia, anywhere. I mean, we all get into the overlaps as well as the differences in, these two, I guess, systems of knowing. Yeah. And one thing that both of us are incredibly interested in is the movement beyond just being in our heads and moving into our bodies, and ultimately the idea of spirit, the idea of, emotions and psychology, this aspect of, like, consciousness shifting that might be maybe lacking or minimized within the current sort of late stage capitalist dynamic. To the extent there is something that we might worship, we could say it is capital itself, within that dynamic.\n\nAnd so the interesting prompts that you gave me was, the current context that we're in.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So like, the way that I like to so, right, we're we're like the day after more it's hard with Asian time. Trump was elected again, and at least, you know, for some people, like at least at least for me, this was something that I am not nearly as surprised about. I mean for a lot of people it was not like a surprise. What it it's more felt like it's felt much worse actually than a surprise it's felt.\n\nThe only way I can describe it is like we're all strapped to a chair and we're on the conveyor belt seeing at the end of what's coming and we can't really move. You know, the other day I was talking with a friend of mine, the co founder of Petchain goes by cassandra. Ish, it's because he, you know, likes the myth of Cassandra in which she is like unable to like change basically the the future that she knows that she's coming, all she can do is like kind of scream at people and like yell at them like why are you doing nothing? I think a lot of people feel this way, and they feel kind of like quite nihilistic. I mean it's like very hard right now to see, at this moment in time at least, like too much hope at the same time in the crypto space.\n\nOf course there were a lot of people who were, supporting Trump, who were behind him because he's going to save our tokens. I know I sent out a video essay right before about how the Left does not hate crypto as a way to kind of just like help because part of the narrative, a part of that is that like the left, Kamala Harris, is somehow considered the left in a lot of these people's brains, is like, you know, going to destroy everything that they stand for and then destroy democracy and whatever else. Each half of like the sides are just like, yeah, unable to seem to like there's there doesn't seem to be any pathway or bridge to like dissolving all of this conflict in, not in late like hippie liberal way, but like in a like necessary practical, like we live together in a society, we need to like come together and make things better, so like, yeah I guess I was curious how how do we kind of, not only like stay out of the realm of like just thinking about how horrible it is, but then like embodying, putting into practice like the things that are actually necessary for the mind as well to, yeah, move past this?\n\nSpeaker 0: I mean that's a really It's\n\nSpeaker 1: a big question.\n\nSpeaker 0: Big question. I I wanna Maybe just like how do you\n\nSpeaker 1: do it or like how how would you suggest it? I mean it's\n\nSpeaker 0: I wanna reference this particular community that we're in, without going too far beyond to, sort of like, the general population of The US or the rest of the world, I mean, because the US election impacts the rest of the world in a big way, and there's a lot of people around the world who have had their eyes on it. But our community in particular, this Web three community, is in some ways very much premised upon, this idea of empowerment, this idea of participation, this idea that any idea that that is put out there is only as good as how it's put into practice. And because it's an open source ecosystem, how it's put into practice can be taken from one place and reapplied pretty much at, you know, zero cost except for the cost of actually doing that local contextualization. That principle is a is a principle of getting out of the conveyor belt. It's, it's it's the idea that, you know, we have the tools to actually start building our own vehicles and, like, not following this train off the cliff, but actually, you know, stepping inside and building building some other vectors of movement.\n\nAnd I think that the message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our Web three community has maybe not taken, the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential. So what does it look like? We we talked about embodied politics, but there's a there's a range of things that, sort of, that play out in this area. We've got politics, policy, and the ways in which laws are made and what laws should be made, and then governance in terms of, like, how those laws are sort of played out. You've got enforcement systems.\n\nYou've got various different ways that you wanna be able to enable a system of transparency around who's doing what so that you can have some common, stable coordination framework. What does it mean to embody that? Because I think what we've had a lot of focus on in our crypto and Web three point zero world is the informational side of things. You've got the, the ways in which we measure certain things, like, the level of with BreadChain you've got a\n\nSpeaker 1: The market cap of tokenism. Exactly.\n\nSpeaker 0: The market cap of tokens. The number of users you have. The number of, Devs. Yeah. Devs.\n\nAnd and all of these things are informational pieces, but, like, what we get in a space like this with Funding the Commons is that in person embodied sort of activation, and the idea that we might start to embody our governance through these mechanisms of, like, in person attunement, making decisions that are a part of, the realities of a particular locality, the realities of a particular locality, or the realities of a particular place in a space. I think the beautiful thing that I've seen coming out of Funding the Commons being in all these different locations is that we do get a different cross section of local participants who are coming because they see the potential in this wider ideology of the commons, this wider ideology of, you know, socialism, sort of but also but beyond socialism, it's sort of like this treating the other as, in some way, part of yourself. Like that, there's some underlying sort of spiritual dynamic that is common in many, many different traditions of religion, but that is being embodied here within Web three as part of a series of technical and sort of convening based functions.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 0: And what I'm hearing you, and part of what our previous conversation was about is that there is this, in a sense, almost missing piece that we can sort of, like, reanimate in terms of not just narrative, but the ways in which we step into Web three point zero as a belief system that is about these fundamental dynamics of building a commons, nurturing a future that is participatory, that allows us to not feel like we are on a conveyor belt. And I think that's part of the system of institutions that we've seen, like, get increasingly more and more powerful and more centralized over the last, you know, century or more. That is creaking now. Yeah. Right?\n\nAnd we're seeing in these elections, and one way to embody the realities of the the elections that happened is just to know that there has been a sort of series of disruptions that are continuing to happen, and, like, the ways that we can find our communities, certainly within the Web3 space, is to gather, to reconvene, to be with each other, and to work on these elements of care that are real in the physical world. And that care can involve in person care, food systems, shelter, mutual aid groups, the sorts of things that actually have happened in various different places around the world when there are disasters. And, you know, while this may not be, like, a natural disaster, there's the you can some people might consider it a political disaster. Again, coming together in those physical embodied mutual aid dynamics, just like we're gathering here, is I feel like part of that journey towards embodied knowing of these potential new systems as well.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that there is, you know, I have plenty of critiques about Web three point zero generally as a concept, or marketing more so as like a VC marketing narrative, but then there is something, I mean one of the things I was thinking about last night was like it kind of actually, for me, solidified like we actually probably stay in this space because right now the institutions are are failing us, and it's kind of like, I don't know, at a certain point there's something of course terrifying and freeing about just like, you know, in some in some ways like our heroes are dead, they're not coming to save us, so like, you now have the mantle to and you are smart enough to go and take part and build it yourself. And maybe\n\nSpeaker 0: to build off of something you were talking about with Susanna in terms of moving beyond this idea of the Hero's Journey, I think that idea that you need to be the hero or that that that the hero is is not gonna come and save you, again, maybe that's not a bad thing because it helps people get over that hero's journey. And you start thinking more about, like, what's the container? Like like because this idea of the carrier bag theory of fiction that Ursula Le Guin points out is, like, it's not about the person who goes out and, like, slays the mammoth. I mean, it makes a great story, but it's about the hearth, the home, the the carrier bag of oats that kind of and and those are harder stories to tell, but they're also much more communal stories to tell. They're more embodied stories of, like, the practice of being together, of making a home together, of caring for each other.\n\nThese are the, you know, some may call them mundane, but actually they they do form the fabric of the kinds of embodied belonging and embodied care chains. And, you know, the care chains speak to this idea that if we care for those around us, we don't need to necessarily care for every single, like, thing that's grabbing our attention on the sort of, like, global stage. There are people immediately around us that have relationships with us already that are caring for others, and if we care for them, you know, that that thing will continue. And and again, that element of re grounding in the care, in the local, I think is, yeah, maybe part of this unfurling that's happening with institutions doing their thing, and this space in particular offering potentially even more hope now for for for many folks. And, I mean, this was, in some sense, part of the allure of Bhutan, which is where we were just before we came to Thailand.\n\nBhutan offers this narrative, but also a spiritual cultural tradition that has been guarded and protected, and that is now held within the context of a fairly small kingdom, but which is offering this sort of, like, Switzerland of Asia with a sort of, like, strong spiritual, mindful grounding possibility, deeply woven with Web three. Right? That's the other thing. Right? The the the king and the prime minister and their whole, sort of leadership has sort of taken a deep, dive into digital currencies and Web three because they are a, you know, the first nature positive country.\n\nThey've got this little, sort of, little group of net zero and nature positive countries, and they're trying to craft this post capitalist imagination. Right? And that, in the context of what just happened last night, I think is just gonna be even more, like, not just appealing, but sort of like, something that can be taken and it doesn't need to just be in I think Bhutan's got something very special going on, but there's a lot of these places that have been waiting for a moment to be able to say, we've been building, we've been growing things, and we hold a space for this imagination that we it's a container, but we want you to come and grow with us. And I think that dynamic of with you, it it's it is gonna take on even more salience now, I think, and that's the hopeful narrative.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah, I think the best way to handle these things is always to try and I mean, definitely for those, and not everyone has it unfortunately, but it is to find, you know, the embodied solidarity with others that you can feel safe with, as much as you can. But yeah, I guess what is the so you were recently in Bhutan, maybe there's maybe that's something interesting to explain a bit about. What were you doing in Bhutan and what was there? And yeah, I think part of this seems to me like this the slow breaking apart of the American empire, and whatever, this move towards a multipolar world that seems to be happening eventually at least, while the, you know, The US kind of like flails its arms up in the air, perhaps is leading to now, like, just different countries, new players that have been kind of in the background for so long, have been able to take advantage of, like, the cracks in the system to maybe come out with something different.\n\nSpeaker 0: I don't want to write off America completely. I think America with its system has done some incredible, incredible things in the world. But there's, there's certainly a view of America that many Americans may not have had of America that is sort of being re cemented right now with, with the current political, situation. And the narrative that Bhutan offers is is almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction. They've explicitly spoken to rejecting the concept of gross domestic product, and they've, like, focused in on this idea of gross national happiness.\n\nThey recently held their first innovation forum, which was a thousand plus person event, largest international gathering that they've held in Bhutan, that was just last month, and I was there early in the year as well when they sort of had a trial run with a sustainable financing for Tiger Landscapes conference. Again, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep, Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings, non violence, you know, a lot of these, like, sort of fundamental dynamics that are Yeah, to some extent, maybe very, very out of sync with a capitalist world. And what's being proposed is some form of a bridge. They're they're calling it the Gelofu Mindfulness City. It's based around a town in Southern Bhutan called Gelofu, but the idea is that it might provide an alternative or an adjacent additionality to the conventional development, but which somehow grounds mindfulness as part of a pathway to a different sort of approach to the commons, approach to finance.\n\nThere's a lot of experts who have been looking at nature based capital, nature based finance, who are looking at the kinds of regulations that they might require from a jurisdiction. And this would be a new jurisdiction, a sort of like a special economic zone, special administrative region, not too similar to Hong Kong, and then sort of modeling after sort of a Dubai and a Singapore, but again with this notion that there's something unique around a tradition that doesn't focus just on production and consumption.\n\nSpeaker 1: That sounds like almost like the but that's like the that sounds like the opposite of what most special economic zones are. Exactly. They're like free trade\n\nSpeaker 0: 100. 100%. And I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that unfolds. We've been invited to offer recommendations in various different capacities and Tell them to\n\nSpeaker 1: stay away from network states.\n\nSpeaker 0: Network nations is the meme that we've been, with Pimavera. And again, I think that meme itself is maybe a bit close to network states. So but the the the fundamental idea is very different in terms of, like, trying to build for collaborative dynamics.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sure, sure, sure. There's a\n\nSpeaker 0: lot of things happening in AI right now, obviously. What does it look like to have collaborative licensing mechanisms around the data and the training data for these large language models? How might we actually create alternatives to the sort of, like, hoovering that is happening with some of those dynamics? There's, like, collaborative, mechanisms that can be baked into tokens that sort of govern the sharing of that that we're working on with Primavera and and and others as part of this sort of collaborative AI and IP consortium that, again, would be hopefully looking to be able to bring in some respects in that Bhutanese context. So they've got their eye on a lot of different developments that are happening, and they're sort of opening space.\n\nThey're creating a container for imagining. And so from our perspective, those of us who've been there, it's, again been a very embodied experience because you go there and you feel the nature of the land, the nature around you, the people who are there and their goodwill, their intentions. Also their wit. They're not like, you know, just like slavish sort of like adorers and followers. They they have, you know, that acerbic wit, which is just beautiful to feel as a Brit, somebody who, like, you know, loves a bit of banter.\n\nLike, just to receive that, be on the receiving end of banter just, like, makes you realize that, okay, this is a culture that, you know, has, like, their own traditions and their, like, pride, but it's an embodied sort of, like, wisdom that doesn't come along with just, like, sitting in the chair and being driven along a conveyor belt. There is some sort of, like, get up and go. Nelip, an amazing entrepreneur here, who's from Bhutan but lives in Thailand, and he's been telling us a lot about his hopes for this mindfulness city and what it means for Bhutanese who've gone abroad and who might now come home, but be able to sort of, like, bring what they've learned from abroad. And so it's a multi angle approach. We've been doing our best to support it, it's an incredibly inspiring vision and a space for imagination.\n\nAnd that's alongside other places like the Amazon. We've been welcomed by the Amazon Sacred Headwaters Alliance, which is a group of indigenous, federations and nations in Ecuador and Peru. Our hope is that what we can learn and do with Bhutan, we might be able to unfurl and support the learning of in a in a different context. Yeah. And again, it's a very embodied experience to go there and to feel the existing imagination and world Right.\n\nThat has been built and and maintained for generations. Right? That that that that that is something that gives you this embodied sense of, ah, I can remember. That my my body sort of knows that this is actually the way that life can be and the world can be and we can relate to each other as Earthkin, as like the like family in a way that like transcends these individualistic sort of primogeniture style bloodlines of, you know, Western Europe, and like moves into this more sort of like I am who I am because of you, the Ubuntu, the sort of like the you know, these different dynamics of self that can exist in this, you know, quasi spiritual dimension. But I think that's, to your point, is somewhat what socialism is.\n\nIt's somewhat what not being entirely individualistic in your ideologies is about. It's about actually leaning in, not just with your body, but with your soul or your spirit or your undescended self in some way to the realities, the lived experience realities of that and what it can do for your just being, or your the way that you live your life. I think it is a it's hard. It's hard when you've been so stuck in this system of status and seeing and how much capital you have and, like, the heroes there to get yourself into this space, but by living with and alongside people who've been doing it. I mean, again, this comes back to this idea of what does it mean to embody and and living alongside and embodying with and becoming with and finding opportunities and and and receiving the invitations and offering others the invitation to do that and and have that kind of embodied imagination together.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. Right. Right.\n\nSpeaker 0: And it doesn't need to be in Bhutan or in the Amazon. It can also be alongside our local river. Like, a dear, dear friend, has just been gathering people to clean up his local river, the River Roding, and he's, like, made that a spiritual endeavor with the with the locals of his little town in England. It's beautiful. Beautiful to see.\n\nAnd then he went and took that glass of river water, and when he was called for jury duty, he he was like, if it's okay with you, I'm not gonna take my oath on the Bible because that's not my spirituality. My spirituality is my river. Can I take my oath on a glass of the river Roding? And they let they let him do it. First time that ever happened.\n\nAnd then these little they're kind of quasi structured, but they're rituals. They're rituals of doing and embodying that gives people, Woah, that's so cool. I wanna do that. Right?\n\nSpeaker 1: So then what are like so, yeah, I think, one of the things that so I did a really nice hike, up to one of the temples in Chiang Mai. I'm just like really struck by, you know, these temples being there for like thousands of years. I think also just coming from a Western context. One of the things that we were joking about is like, you know, in these Buddhist temples, the image that you see of the person, of the statues are often like, they're relaxed. They're like cross legged, like either focused or they're laying down completely relaxed.\n\nYeah. But like, really fascinating because you think about at least like Christianity, you know, the image is Jesus on the cross dying. Yeah. You know, like, it's like if I was Jesus coming back, you know, there's a friend a joke that our friend Beth made, where it was like, you know, like why did they pick Jesus's worst moments to, like, make the infinite image that people see that then represents Christianity, that definitely has downstream effects, and I think within Christian thoughts and like, shame, sacrifice, shame, and like,\n\nSpeaker 0: you know,\n\nSpeaker 1: death and rebirth, and like, there's something with the breath, like, you know, Buddhists are, they're like praying to a guy who's chilling. You know, it's very crude to say it.\n\nSpeaker 0: But they're not even praying to him, they're praying to the version of themselves that he's inspiring. Sure, yeah. And you see that\n\nSpeaker 1: they're like, Thai people are just like very kind. Yeah. It's been incredible, like they're such kind people. I haven't met like anyone who's been like really chill, like\n\nSpeaker 0: they're able to like just like receive whatever it is that gets thrown at them and give back love. I felt that on numerous occasions. I felt myself be ashamed on a previous journey to Thailand. It was what I was I happened to be with some beautiful friends who were deep enough friends with me that they called me in, right? But I was an asshole, this previous time, and I was just not nice.\n\nI was trying to throw my weight around, and they received it, and they were super kind and everything, and it was only thanks to my friends calling me in the next day, and they're like, dude, that was kinda not cool. I was like, yeah, fuck. Yeah. I'm an asshole. But but it's there's so many beautiful examples in this culture in Thailand because of that that, can sometimes get missed, I think.\n\nMhmm. Because of there is this sort of, this layer of assumptions that we bring as just visitors to a country that can often lead us to have different expectations. And I think one of the beautiful things about being able to come to a country and, be invited and also be inviting of, people who have been living here for for quite some time to actually be imagining together, you feel less like a visitor. You feel like a co creator. Mhmm.\n\nAnd through that lens, you get to really start to unfurl these, like, deeper cultural reference points around, yeah, non violence, like being chill. You go to a temple and you see a monk who's, like, spending the time there just happily explaining to you, like, you know, whatever you wanna chat about. Like, nine till six, they're there, and they're, like, open monk chats. There's these incredible, as you're saying, like, images of, not just, like, sort of Buddhas, like, sort of lying down, but, like, Buddhas who have, like, sprouted multiple heads because they need additional faces for all the different compassion. Mhmm.\n\nThat they're, you know, the the the the Buddha of compassion has all of these, like, sprouting heads, and it's just this idea that compassion is this beautiful thing to be treasured, and that you can constantly be creating these new versions of yourself to be able to find compassion in a new direction. And so what, you know, what does it look like to have compassion for an individual like the new leader of the free world? Right? Because of whatever context that they had growing up, you know, that leads them to be this angry, violent, word spewing individual because of a need for some kind of dominance. And, like, I mean, it's tough sometimes, but, like, I can see how that cultural and worldview just, like, sets a totally different grounding for some of these imaginings to happen.\n\nAnd so it is a deep pleasure to be here. It's a deep pleasure to be here after being in Bhutan because I think being in Bhutan helped me see that side of things here with greater clarity as well. And I think we all get to see different cultures and different people with new eyes every single time if we choose to. And I think that's also the beauty of, like, getting off of the railroad. Getting off\n\nSpeaker 1: of the The conveyor belt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. The conveyor belt. It's actually giving yourself the space to see things with with new eyes. Sure. And and feel things with, with a new body even.\n\nSo like, yeah, I think\n\nSpeaker 1: the the experience of getting being now in this just like very different cultural context, you know, and actually understanding the or at least noticing the difference in how people interact and embody themselves, and like, embody themselves in like the micro politics of the everyday. So one of the things we were talking about before is like, you know, the way I framed it was like, you know, does the Left need a kind of etiquette? Like how do how do we embody ourselves to each other in a way that we can, you know, actually acknowledge that we're all going through a tough time probably, we're all like, dealing with the same shit that everybody else is dealing with, So, like, what you're you're questioning, like, you know, what is the, you know, the first thing, but if you guys so if we just met at a party, like, what would be the first question you would ask someone? Like, how would you begin to to meet someone and make new connections? Someone in a way that is, like, detached from, like, our tradition like, the usual questions of what do you do?\n\nYou know?\n\nSpeaker 0: And again, we were just joking that that question is actually seeking to position you in this sort of capitalist system. It's like how much do you earn? It's like this sort of like how much capital do you have? So the different questions, might be, framed around sort of understanding someone's context. Right?\n\nSo it's sort of like, oh, where do you feel local these days? Or, it can be, you know, we talked about this idea of attuning to a paradox and, that was just one that that came up. But it's sort of like, yeah, how how do you attune?\n\nSpeaker 1: So, we just missed the last question that, I asked Tony because my camera is unable to record more than 30, but, yeah, so we can, what was the the question I asked was what type of question do you think, like, if we were to meet in a party, what question would you ask someone to kind of break the the normal capitalist etiquette into a more post capitalism, a more verbal one?\n\nSpeaker 0: We talked about the default capitalist questions being like, What do you do? The underlying tone being, how much do you earn? How much capital do you have? Where do I rank you in this sort of, like, capitalist hierarchy that's, like, built into my brain? I hate that question.\n\nGenerally questions that, put people slightly into a space of not having answered it before. You want to bring people into a creative space, a co creative space, ideally. So I have taken to asking questions like how do you attune to a paradox? Or what contradictions have you been dealing with in your life? And it's, it's a pretty heavy one to sort of, like, kick off with, but it also, like I said, it kind of takes people out of that default thread.\n\nAnd I think that, for me, is one of those areas where joy is found. I play music mostly through improvisation, I don't really play songs that have been written out, and it's fun, but it's not the kind of full joy space that I like to embody, and I think it's the same as with conversations. If a conversation is coming from a space of creativity, it's not being rehearsed, but it's actually just coming out of a space of thought and having to consider and imagine, that's the space I think we need to get into with our sort of crypto socialist ethic, this, etiquette of originality when it comes to our diplomacies. I think diplomacy is something that, you know, we're definitely taking out of the nation state space and putting into our, like, empowered we\n\nSpeaker 1: can actually build relationships that have these deeper, more\n\nSpeaker 0: fundamental, long term impact. Etiquettes to the ways that we, you know, offer each other space for co creative imagination, and and explicitly take people out of that default mode network of capitalist thinking and into this space of, oh, we can be a bit creative here. We can be a bit fun here. We can actually open up into a bit of, like, potential vulnerability space or even complexity, right? The idea that you don't need to have the solid, acceptable answer in any context, but things can be complicated.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the risks and joys of asking these types of questions, of course, is a way that you can do it that's like kind of annoying, but then there's a way you can do it that I think that is like actually like productive is like that if you do ask a question then, and they act weird about it, like you will then get to quickly know are they with it a little bit as well. It's also a bit of a vibe check of course, as well. But I think it it like helps people I think part of being a post capitalist subject is that you then are pushed into thinking about yourself in a system, in the world, and not just what do you do, is just sort of like this is the cog, like this is the cog that I'm in without thinking about the machine, like what contradictions are you dealing with or like, you know, I know I'm within a system that has all these things going on, and I have to react to them in many ways that maybe go against my what I would normally do otherwise or whatever else, and just acknowledges that we're all dealing with contradictions, and that's kind of okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: It also opens up space for difficult things. And most of the time, it's hard to talk about difficult things. But if we can create containers for that, and we're actually expressing an interest and curiosity in Mhmm. Not just the simple answer. I'm not just gonna categorize you.\n\nI'm actually here to maybe offer a bit of care. Right? I think these these are the sorts of, like, out of default, oh, this is interesting. This is not normal. Like, somebody is actually really interested in me as a whole person, that's kind of cool.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So there you go, that's how you have post capitalist etiquette, ask weird questions at parties, you're becoming really popular.\n\nSpeaker 0: With the right kind of\n\nSpeaker 1: crew. Thanks.\n\nSpeaker 0: Thank you so much.\n\nSpeaker 1: This is so awesome. Oh my god.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we talked about the default sort of capitalist questions being sort of like, what do you do?", "start": 0.24, "end": 4.56 }, { "text": "Like, the underlying sort of tone being how much do you earn?", "start": 4.56, "end": 7.7599998 }, { "text": "How much capital do you have?", "start": 7.7599998, "end": 8.88 }, { "text": "Where do I rank you in this sort of, like, capitalist hierarchy that's, like, built into my brain?", "start": 8.88, "end": 13.139999 }, { "text": "I hate that question.", "start": 13.599999, "end": 14.58 } ], "start": 0.24, "end": 14.58, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Again, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings nonviolent.", "start": 15.165, "end": 31.17 }, { "text": "Message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our web three community has maybe not taken the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential.", "start": 31.55, "end": 50.574997 } ], "start": 15.165, "end": 50.574997, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hey, guys.", "start": 50.574997, "end": 51.135 }, { "text": "What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four.", "start": 51.135, "end": 57.074997 }, { "text": "I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person.", "start": 57.24, "end": 64.22 }, { "text": "Devcon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon.", "start": 64.68, "end": 70.06 }, { "text": "So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and blockchain socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist.", "start": 70.455, "end": 87.259995 } ], "start": 50.574997, "end": 87.259995, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi", "start": 88.759995, "end": 89.259995 } ], "start": 88.759995, "end": 89.259995, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "everyone.", "start": 90.439995, "end": 90.939995 }, { "text": "You're listening again to another one of the short interviews that I'm doing while in Thailand for, for DevCon.", "start": 91.72, "end": 98.52 }, { "text": "I'm here at Funding the Commons during the Design Jam, part of all the days that they're organizing, and I'm here with Tony Lai.", "start": 98.52, "end": 106.225006 }, { "text": "We were just talking about, before I started recording, about many different things, and one in particular to kind of hone in on is this idea of how to, I guess, embody our politics is maybe one way to say it.", "start": 106.225006, "end": 119.78 }, { "text": "But actually quick introduction, you are the other half of Mother Tree Labs?", "start": 120.72, "end": 124.96001 } ], "start": 90.439995, "end": 124.96001, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Indeed, I mean we're a collective currently of two, but we're constantly bringing in, new friends and family as part of our work.", "start": 124.96001, "end": 133.795 }, { "text": "But Mother Tree Labs, is a non profit initiative started by Susanna Aikala and myself.", "start": 133.795, "end": 140.535 }, { "text": "Susanna brings the narrative engineering side of things, and I bring the legal engineering side of things.", "start": 140.595, "end": 145.44 }, { "text": "And so we say it's the law and the law, and those sound the same in", "start": 145.44, "end": 149.76001 } ], "start": 124.96001, "end": 149.76001, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "my accent.", "start": 149.76001, "end": 149.96 }, { "text": "I think it's Australian.", "start": 149.96, "end": 151.38 }, { "text": "It says law and the law.", "start": 151.68001, "end": 152.98001 } ], "start": 149.76001, "end": 152.98001, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, English, Australia, anywhere.", "start": 154.16, "end": 155.6 }, { "text": "I mean, we all get into the overlaps as well as the differences in, these two, I guess, systems of knowing.", "start": 155.6, "end": 167.765 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 167.825, "end": 168.145 }, { "text": "And one thing that both of us are incredibly interested in is the movement beyond just being in our heads and moving into our bodies, and ultimately the idea of spirit, the idea of, emotions and psychology, this aspect of, like, consciousness shifting that might be maybe lacking or minimized within the current sort of late stage capitalist dynamic.", "start": 168.145, "end": 196.325 }, { "text": "To the extent there is something that we might worship, we could say it is capital itself, within that dynamic.", "start": 196.95, "end": 202.07 } ], "start": 154.16, "end": 202.07, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so the interesting prompts that you gave me was, the current context that we're in.", "start": 202.07, "end": 211.485 } ], "start": 202.07, "end": 211.485, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 211.485, "end": 211.80501 }, { "text": "So like, the way that I like to so, right, we're we're like the day after more it's hard with Asian time.", "start": 211.80501, "end": 218.365 }, { "text": "Trump was elected again, and at least, you know, for some people, like at least at least for me, this was something that I am not nearly as surprised about.", "start": 218.685, "end": 228.6 }, { "text": "I mean for a lot of people it was not like a surprise.", "start": 228.6, "end": 230.76 }, { "text": "What it it's more felt like it's felt much worse actually than a surprise it's felt.", "start": 230.76, "end": 235.32 } ], "start": 211.485, "end": 235.32, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The only way I can describe it is like we're all strapped to a chair and we're on the conveyor belt seeing at the end of what's coming and we can't really move.", "start": 235.32, "end": 242.835 }, { "text": "You know, the other day I was talking with a friend of mine, the co founder of Petchain goes by cassandra.", "start": 243.855, "end": 249.635 }, { "text": "Ish, it's because he, you know, likes the myth of Cassandra in which she is like unable to like change basically the the future that she knows that she's coming, all she can do is like kind of scream at people and like yell at them like why are you doing nothing?", "start": 250.335, "end": 263.12 }, { "text": "I think a lot of people feel this way, and they feel kind of like quite nihilistic.", "start": 264.06, "end": 270.535 }, { "text": "I mean it's like very hard right now to see, at this moment in time at least, like too much hope at the same time in the crypto space.", "start": 270.595, "end": 278.115 } ], "start": 235.32, "end": 278.115, "num_words": 152.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Of course there were a lot of people who were, supporting Trump, who were behind him because he's going to save our tokens.", "start": 278.115, "end": 284.5 }, { "text": "I know I sent out a video essay right before about how the Left does not hate crypto as a way to kind of just like help because part of the narrative, a part of that is that like the left, Kamala Harris, is somehow considered the left in a lot of these people's brains, is like, you know, going to destroy everything that they stand for and then destroy democracy and whatever else.", "start": 284.80002, "end": 304.26 }, { "text": "Each half of like the sides are just like, yeah, unable to seem to like there's there doesn't seem to be any pathway or bridge to like dissolving all of this conflict in, not in late like hippie liberal way, but like in a like necessary practical, like we live together in a society, we need to like come together and make things better, so like, yeah I guess I was curious how how do we kind of, not only like stay out of the realm of like just thinking about how horrible it is, but then like embodying, putting into practice like the things that are actually necessary for the mind as well to, yeah, move past this?", "start": 304.58002, "end": 350.70502 } ], "start": 278.115, "end": 350.70502, "num_words": 216.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean that's a really It's", "start": 352.125, "end": 353.245 } ], "start": 352.125, "end": 353.245, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "a big question.", "start": 353.245, "end": 353.725 } ], "start": 353.245, "end": 353.725, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Big question.", "start": 353.885, "end": 354.625 }, { "text": "I I wanna Maybe just like how do you", "start": 356.845, "end": 358.445 } ], "start": 353.885, "end": 358.445, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "do it or like how how would you suggest it?", "start": 358.445, "end": 360.285 }, { "text": "I mean it's", "start": 360.285, "end": 360.685 } ], "start": 358.445, "end": 360.685, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I wanna reference this particular community that we're in, without going too far beyond to, sort of like, the general population of The US or the rest of the world, I mean, because the US election impacts the rest of the world in a big way, and there's a lot of people around the world who have had their eyes on it.", "start": 361.165, "end": 378.585 }, { "text": "But our community in particular, this Web three community, is in some ways very much premised upon, this idea of empowerment, this idea of participation, this idea that any idea that that is put out there is only as good as how it's put into practice.", "start": 378.745, "end": 399.24 }, { "text": "And because it's an open source ecosystem, how it's put into practice can be taken from one place and reapplied pretty much at, you know, zero cost except for the cost of actually doing that local contextualization.", "start": 399.86, "end": 412.915 }, { "text": "That principle is a is a principle of getting out of the conveyor belt.", "start": 415.13498, "end": 419.615 }, { "text": "It's, it's it's the idea that, you know, we have the tools to actually start building our own vehicles and, like, not following this train off the cliff, but actually, you know, stepping inside and building building some other vectors of movement.", "start": 419.615, "end": 432.31 } ], "start": 361.165, "end": 432.31, "num_words": 201.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think that the message of embodiment speaks to ways in which I think our Web three community has maybe not taken, the sort of latent space of what it means to fully know something, you know, to it to its ultimate potential.", "start": 432.53, "end": 458.11 }, { "text": "So what does it look like?", "start": 458.11, "end": 459.47 }, { "text": "We we talked about embodied politics, but there's a there's a range of things that, sort of, that play out in this area.", "start": 459.47, "end": 466.965 }, { "text": "We've got politics, policy, and the ways in which laws are made and what laws should be made, and then governance in terms of, like, how those laws are sort of played out.", "start": 466.965, "end": 477.76498 }, { "text": "You've got enforcement systems.", "start": 477.76498, "end": 479.22 } ], "start": 432.53, "end": 479.22, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You've got various different ways that you wanna be able to enable a system of transparency around who's doing what so that you can have some common, stable coordination framework.", "start": 479.22, "end": 491.48 }, { "text": "What does it mean to embody that?", "start": 493.45502, "end": 495.215 }, { "text": "Because I think what we've had a lot of focus on in our crypto and Web three point zero world is the informational side of things.", "start": 495.215, "end": 501.215 }, { "text": "You've got the, the ways in which we measure certain things, like, the level of with BreadChain you've got a", "start": 501.215, "end": 514.62 } ], "start": 479.22, "end": 514.62, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The market cap of tokenism.", "start": 514.7, "end": 516.06 }, { "text": "Exactly.", "start": 516.06, "end": 516.56 } ], "start": 514.7, "end": 516.56, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The market cap of tokens.", "start": 516.7, "end": 517.74 }, { "text": "The number of users you have.", "start": 517.74, "end": 518.86 }, { "text": "The number of, Devs.", "start": 518.86, "end": 521.15497 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 521.15497, "end": 521.395 }, { "text": "Devs.", "start": 521.395, "end": 521.895 } ], "start": 516.7, "end": 521.895, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and all of these things are informational pieces, but, like, what we get in a space like this with Funding the Commons is that in person embodied sort of activation, and the idea that we might start to embody our governance through these mechanisms of, like, in person attunement, making decisions that are a part of, the realities of a particular locality, the realities of a particular locality, or the realities of a particular place in a space.", "start": 522.115, "end": 550.77496 }, { "text": "I think the beautiful thing that I've seen coming out of Funding the Commons being in all these different locations is that we do get a different cross section of local participants who are coming because they see the potential in this wider ideology of the commons, this wider ideology of, you know, socialism, sort of but also but beyond socialism, it's sort of like this treating the other as, in some way, part of yourself.", "start": 550.77496, "end": 576.19 }, { "text": "Like that, there's some underlying sort of spiritual dynamic that is common in many, many different traditions of religion, but that is being embodied here within Web three as part of a series of technical and sort of convening based functions.", "start": 576.19, "end": 592.77496 } ], "start": 522.115, "end": 592.77496, "num_words": 196.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 593.33997, "end": 593.57996 } ], "start": 593.33997, "end": 593.57996, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And what I'm hearing you, and part of what our previous conversation was about is that there is this, in a sense, almost missing piece that we can sort of, like, reanimate in terms of not just narrative, but the ways in which we step into Web three point zero as a belief system that is about these fundamental dynamics of building a commons, nurturing a future that is participatory, that allows us to not feel like we are on a conveyor belt.", "start": 593.57996, "end": 621.05505 }, { "text": "And I think that's part of the system of institutions that we've seen, like, get increasingly more and more powerful and more centralized over the last, you know, century or more.", "start": 621.11505, "end": 629.93 }, { "text": "That is creaking now.", "start": 629.93, "end": 631.69 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 631.69, "end": 631.85004 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 631.85004, "end": 632.09 } ], "start": 593.57996, "end": 632.09, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And we're seeing in these elections, and one way to embody the realities of the the elections that happened is just to know that there has been a sort of series of disruptions that are continuing to happen, and, like, the ways that we can find our communities, certainly within the Web3 space, is to gather, to reconvene, to be with each other, and to work on these elements of care that are real in the physical world.", "start": 632.09, "end": 660.95996 }, { "text": "And that care can involve in person care, food systems, shelter, mutual aid groups, the sorts of things that actually have happened in various different places around the world when there are disasters.", "start": 660.95996, "end": 672.025 }, { "text": "And, you know, while this may not be, like, a natural disaster, there's the you can some people might consider it a political disaster.", "start": 672.325, "end": 678.425 }, { "text": "Again, coming together in those physical embodied mutual aid dynamics, just like we're gathering here, is I feel like part of that journey towards embodied knowing of these potential new systems as well.", "start": 678.73, "end": 693.045 } ], "start": 632.09, "end": 693.045, "num_words": 168.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah, sure.", "start": 693.365, "end": 693.925 }, { "text": "I mean, I think that there is, you know, I have plenty of critiques about Web three point zero generally as a concept, or marketing more so as like a VC marketing narrative, but then there is something, I mean one of the things I was thinking about last night was like it kind of actually, for me, solidified like we actually probably stay in this space because right now the institutions are are failing us, and it's kind of like, I don't know, at a certain point there's something of course terrifying and freeing about just like, you know, in some in some ways like our heroes are dead, they're not coming to save us, so like, you now have the mantle to and you are smart enough to go and take part and build it yourself.", "start": 693.925, "end": 741.52 }, { "text": "And maybe", "start": 742.14, "end": 742.88 } ], "start": 693.365, "end": 742.88, "num_words": 142.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "to build off of something you were talking about with Susanna in terms of moving beyond this idea of the Hero's Journey, I think that idea that you need to be the hero or that that that the hero is is not gonna come and save you, again, maybe that's not a bad thing because it helps people get over that hero's journey.", "start": 743.82, "end": 760.065 }, { "text": "And you start thinking more about, like, what's the container?", "start": 760.065, "end": 762.86005 }, { "text": "Like like because this idea of the carrier bag theory of fiction that Ursula Le Guin points out is, like, it's not about the person who goes out and, like, slays the mammoth.", "start": 762.92004, "end": 770.92004 }, { "text": "I mean, it makes a great story, but it's about the hearth, the home, the the carrier bag of oats that kind of and and those are harder stories to tell, but they're also much more communal stories to tell.", "start": 770.92004, "end": 782.465 }, { "text": "They're more embodied stories of, like, the practice of being together, of making a home together, of caring for each other.", "start": 782.465, "end": 789.265 } ], "start": 743.82, "end": 789.265, "num_words": 167.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "These are the, you know, some may call them mundane, but actually they they do form the fabric of the kinds of embodied belonging and embodied care chains.", "start": 789.265, "end": 801.02 }, { "text": "And, you know, the care chains speak to this idea that if we care for those around us, we don't need to necessarily care for every single, like, thing that's grabbing our attention on the sort of, like, global stage.", "start": 801.64, "end": 812.465 }, { "text": "There are people immediately around us that have relationships with us already that are caring for others, and if we care for them, you know, that that thing will continue.", "start": 812.465, "end": 820.95 }, { "text": "And and again, that element of re grounding in the care, in the local, I think is, yeah, maybe part of this unfurling that's happening with institutions doing their thing, and this space in particular offering potentially even more hope now for for for many folks.", "start": 820.95, "end": 840.575 }, { "text": "And, I mean, this was, in some sense, part of the allure of Bhutan, which is where we were just before we came to Thailand.", "start": 840.575, "end": 848.195 } ], "start": 789.265, "end": 848.195, "num_words": 169.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bhutan offers this narrative, but also a spiritual cultural tradition that has been guarded and protected, and that is now held within the context of a fairly small kingdom, but which is offering this sort of, like, Switzerland of Asia with a sort of, like, strong spiritual, mindful grounding possibility, deeply woven with Web three.", "start": 848.41504, "end": 873.955 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 873.955, "end": 874.27496 }, { "text": "That's the other thing.", "start": 874.27496, "end": 875.075 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 875.075, "end": 875.395 }, { "text": "The the the king and the prime minister and their whole, sort of leadership has sort of taken a deep, dive into digital currencies and Web three because they are a, you know, the first nature positive country.", "start": 875.395, "end": 891.51 } ], "start": 848.41504, "end": 891.51, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They've got this little, sort of, little group of net zero and nature positive countries, and they're trying to craft this post capitalist imagination.", "start": 891.51, "end": 899.91504 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 900.215, "end": 900.53503 }, { "text": "And that, in the context of what just happened last night, I think is just gonna be even more, like, not just appealing, but sort of like, something that can be taken and it doesn't need to just be in I think Bhutan's got something very special going on, but there's a lot of these places that have been waiting for a moment to be able to say, we've been building, we've been growing things, and we hold a space for this imagination that we it's a container, but we want you to come and grow with us.", "start": 900.53503, "end": 932.395 }, { "text": "And I think that dynamic of with you, it it's it is gonna take on even more salience now, I think, and that's the hopeful narrative.", "start": 932.395, "end": 942.83997 } ], "start": 891.51, "end": 942.83997, "num_words": 149.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah, I think the best way to handle these things is always to try and I mean, definitely for those, and not everyone has it unfortunately, but it is to find, you know, the embodied solidarity with others that you can feel safe with, as much as you can.", "start": 943.86, "end": 964.305 }, { "text": "But yeah, I guess what is the so you were recently in Bhutan, maybe there's maybe that's something interesting to explain a bit about.", "start": 965.245, "end": 971.67004 }, { "text": "What were you doing in Bhutan and what was there?", "start": 971.67004, "end": 973.93005 }, { "text": "And yeah, I think part of this seems to me like this the slow breaking apart of the American empire, and whatever, this move towards a multipolar world that seems to be happening eventually at least, while the, you know, The US kind of like flails its arms up in the air, perhaps is leading to now, like, just different countries, new players that have been kind of in the background for so long, have been able to take advantage of, like, the cracks in the system to maybe come out with something different.", "start": 973.99005, "end": 1005.52 } ], "start": 943.86, "end": 1005.52, "num_words": 177.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I don't want to write off America completely.", "start": 1006.46, "end": 1008.72504 }, { "text": "I think America with its system has done some incredible, incredible things in the world.", "start": 1008.72504, "end": 1014.645 }, { "text": "But there's, there's certainly a view of America that many Americans may not have had of America that is sort of being re cemented right now with, with the current political, situation.", "start": 1014.645, "end": 1028.8099 }, { "text": "And the narrative that Bhutan offers is is almost 180 degrees in the opposite direction.", "start": 1028.8099, "end": 1038.665 }, { "text": "They've explicitly spoken to rejecting the concept of gross domestic product, and they've, like, focused in on this idea of gross national happiness.", "start": 1038.665, "end": 1049.1001 } ], "start": 1006.46, "end": 1049.1001, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They recently held their first innovation forum, which was a thousand plus person event, largest international gathering that they've held in Bhutan, that was just last month, and I was there early in the year as well when they sort of had a trial run with a sustainable financing for Tiger Landscapes conference.", "start": 1049.4, "end": 1068.3049 }, { "text": "Again, all of this is in in many ways building upon this heritage that the Bhutanese have, which is a deep respect for nature, as well as a deep, Buddhist culture that holds these values of loving kindness towards sentient beings, non violence, you know, a lot of these, like, sort of fundamental dynamics that are Yeah, to some extent, maybe very, very out of sync with a capitalist world.", "start": 1069.8049, "end": 1097.515 }, { "text": "And what's being proposed is some form of a bridge.", "start": 1098.215, "end": 1101.435 }, { "text": "They're they're calling it the Gelofu Mindfulness City.", "start": 1101.7699, "end": 1103.85 }, { "text": "It's based around a town in Southern Bhutan called Gelofu, but the idea is that it might provide an alternative or an adjacent additionality to the conventional development, but which somehow grounds mindfulness as part of a pathway to a different sort of approach to the commons, approach to finance.", "start": 1103.85, "end": 1123.925 } ], "start": 1049.4, "end": 1123.925, "num_words": 191.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There's a lot of experts who have been looking at nature based capital, nature based finance, who are looking at the kinds of regulations that they might require from a jurisdiction.", "start": 1124.465, "end": 1133.9401 }, { "text": "And this would be a new jurisdiction, a sort of like a special economic zone, special administrative region, not too similar to Hong Kong, and then sort of modeling after sort of a Dubai and a Singapore, but again with this notion that there's something unique around a tradition that doesn't focus just on production and consumption.", "start": 1134.8, "end": 1154.115 } ], "start": 1124.465, "end": 1154.115, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That sounds like almost like the but that's like the that sounds like the opposite of what most special economic zones are.", "start": 1155.055, "end": 1160.9 }, { "text": "Exactly.", "start": 1160.9, "end": 1161.2999 }, { "text": "They're like free trade", "start": 1161.2999, "end": 1162.02 } ], "start": 1155.055, "end": 1162.02, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "100.", "start": 1162.1799, "end": 1162.98 }, { "text": "100%.", "start": 1162.98, "end": 1163.46 }, { "text": "And I think it's going to be very interesting to see how that unfolds.", "start": 1163.46, "end": 1166.5 }, { "text": "We've been invited to offer recommendations in various different capacities and Tell them to", "start": 1166.5, "end": 1170.82 } ], "start": 1162.1799, "end": 1170.82, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "stay away from network states.", "start": 1170.82, "end": 1172.145 } ], "start": 1170.82, "end": 1172.145, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Network nations is the meme that we've been, with Pimavera.", "start": 1173.8251, "end": 1178.005 }, { "text": "And again, I think that meme itself is maybe a bit close to network states.", "start": 1178.0651, "end": 1181.345 }, { "text": "So but the the the fundamental idea is very different in terms of, like, trying to build for collaborative dynamics.", "start": 1181.345, "end": 1187.5499 } ], "start": 1173.8251, "end": 1187.5499, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure, sure, sure.", "start": 1187.5499, "end": 1187.87 }, { "text": "There's a", "start": 1187.87, "end": 1188.11 } ], "start": 1187.5499, "end": 1188.11, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "lot of things happening in AI right now, obviously.", "start": 1188.11, "end": 1190.19 }, { "text": "What does it look like to have collaborative licensing mechanisms around the data and the training data for these large language models?", "start": 1190.19, "end": 1199.535 }, { "text": "How might we actually create alternatives to the sort of, like, hoovering that is happening with some of those dynamics?", "start": 1199.775, "end": 1206.435 }, { "text": "There's, like, collaborative, mechanisms that can be baked into tokens that sort of govern the sharing of that that we're working on with Primavera and and and others as part of this sort of collaborative AI and IP consortium that, again, would be hopefully looking to be able to bring in some respects in that Bhutanese context.", "start": 1206.735, "end": 1226.565 }, { "text": "So they've got their eye on a lot of different developments that are happening, and they're sort of opening space.", "start": 1227.5249, "end": 1233.605 } ], "start": 1188.11, "end": 1233.605, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They're creating a container for imagining.", "start": 1233.605, "end": 1236.2649 }, { "text": "And so from our perspective, those of us who've been there, it's, again been a very embodied experience because you go there and you feel the nature of the land, the nature around you, the people who are there and their goodwill, their intentions.", "start": 1236.6449, "end": 1250.19 }, { "text": "Also their wit.", "start": 1250.19, "end": 1252.0499 }, { "text": "They're not like, you know, just like slavish sort of like adorers and followers.", "start": 1252.11, "end": 1256.6649 }, { "text": "They they have, you know, that acerbic wit, which is just beautiful to feel as a Brit, somebody who, like, you know, loves a bit of banter.", "start": 1256.885, "end": 1263.385 } ], "start": 1233.605, "end": 1263.385, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, just to receive that, be on the receiving end of banter just, like, makes you realize that, okay, this is a culture that, you know, has, like, their own traditions and their, like, pride, but it's an embodied sort of, like, wisdom that doesn't come along with just, like, sitting in the chair and being driven along a conveyor belt.", "start": 1263.445, "end": 1280.0499 }, { "text": "There is some sort of, like, get up and go.", "start": 1280.0499, "end": 1281.705 }, { "text": "Nelip, an amazing entrepreneur here, who's from Bhutan but lives in Thailand, and he's been telling us a lot about his hopes for this mindfulness city and what it means for Bhutanese who've gone abroad and who might now come home, but be able to sort of, like, bring what they've learned from abroad.", "start": 1281.7849, "end": 1296.505 }, { "text": "And so it's a multi angle approach.", "start": 1296.505, "end": 1300.59 }, { "text": "We've been doing our best to support it, it's an incredibly inspiring vision and a space for imagination.", "start": 1300.59, "end": 1305.25 } ], "start": 1263.445, "end": 1305.25, "num_words": 150.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that's alongside other places like the Amazon.", "start": 1306.51, "end": 1310.4299 }, { "text": "We've been welcomed by the Amazon Sacred Headwaters Alliance, which is a group of indigenous, federations and nations in Ecuador and Peru.", "start": 1310.4299, "end": 1318.665 }, { "text": "Our hope is that what we can learn and do with Bhutan, we might be able to unfurl and support the learning of in a in a different context.", "start": 1319.045, "end": 1327.0499 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1327.35, "end": 1327.59 }, { "text": "And again, it's a very embodied experience to go there and to feel the existing imagination and world Right.", "start": 1327.59, "end": 1337.07 } ], "start": 1306.51, "end": 1337.07, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That has been built and and maintained for generations.", "start": 1337.35, "end": 1340.09 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1340.465, "end": 1340.785 }, { "text": "That that that that that is something that gives you this embodied sense of, ah, I can remember.", "start": 1340.785, "end": 1346.545 }, { "text": "That my my body sort of knows that this is actually the way that life can be and the world can be and we can relate to each other as Earthkin, as like the like family in a way that like transcends these individualistic sort of primogeniture style bloodlines of, you know, Western Europe, and like moves into this more sort of like I am who I am because of you, the Ubuntu, the sort of like the you know, these different dynamics of self that can exist in this, you know, quasi spiritual dimension.", "start": 1346.545, "end": 1377.605 }, { "text": "But I think that's, to your point, is somewhat what socialism is.", "start": 1377.825, "end": 1381.025 } ], "start": 1337.35, "end": 1381.025, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's somewhat what not being entirely individualistic in your ideologies is about.", "start": 1381.025, "end": 1386.02 }, { "text": "It's about actually leaning in, not just with your body, but with your soul or your spirit or your undescended self in some way to the realities, the lived experience realities of that and what it can do for your just being, or your the way that you live your life.", "start": 1386.02, "end": 1402.015 }, { "text": "I think it is a it's hard.", "start": 1402.015, "end": 1403.615 }, { "text": "It's hard when you've been so stuck in this system of status and seeing and how much capital you have and, like, the heroes there to get yourself into this space, but by living with and alongside people who've been doing it.", "start": 1403.615, "end": 1416.8 }, { "text": "I mean, again, this comes back to this idea of what does it mean to embody and and living alongside and embodying with and becoming with and finding opportunities and and and receiving the invitations and offering others the invitation to do that and and have that kind of embodied imagination together.", "start": 1417.26, "end": 1434.115 } ], "start": 1381.025, "end": 1434.115, "num_words": 164.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1434.495, "end": 1434.7351 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 1434.7351, "end": 1434.9751 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 1434.9751, "end": 1435.055 } ], "start": 1434.495, "end": 1435.055, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it doesn't need to be in Bhutan or in the Amazon.", "start": 1435.055, "end": 1437.295 }, { "text": "It can also be alongside our local river.", "start": 1437.295, "end": 1439.875 }, { "text": "Like, a dear, dear friend, has just been gathering people to clean up his local river, the River Roding, and he's, like, made that a spiritual endeavor with the with the locals of his little town in England.", "start": 1440.9501, "end": 1450.89 }, { "text": "It's beautiful.", "start": 1450.9501, "end": 1451.61 }, { "text": "Beautiful to see.", "start": 1451.91, "end": 1452.89 } ], "start": 1435.055, "end": 1452.89, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then he went and took that glass of river water, and when he was called for jury duty, he he was like, if it's okay with you, I'm not gonna take my oath on the Bible because that's not my spirituality.", "start": 1453.67, "end": 1463.905 }, { "text": "My spirituality is my river.", "start": 1463.9651, "end": 1465.425 }, { "text": "Can I take my oath on a glass of the river Roding?", "start": 1465.7251, "end": 1468.125 }, { "text": "And they let they let him do it.", "start": 1468.125, "end": 1469.3251 }, { "text": "First time that ever happened.", "start": 1469.3251, "end": 1470.625 } ], "start": 1453.67, "end": 1470.625, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then these little they're kind of quasi structured, but they're rituals.", "start": 1470.765, "end": 1474.73 }, { "text": "They're rituals of doing and embodying that gives people, Woah, that's so cool.", "start": 1474.87, "end": 1478.79 }, { "text": "I wanna do that.", "start": 1478.79, "end": 1479.59 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1479.59, "end": 1480.09 } ], "start": 1470.765, "end": 1480.09, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So then what are like so, yeah, I think, one of the things that so I did a really nice hike, up to one of the temples in Chiang Mai.", "start": 1480.23, "end": 1489.095 }, { "text": "I'm just like really struck by, you know, these temples being there for like thousands of years.", "start": 1489.095, "end": 1493.415 }, { "text": "I think also just coming from a Western context.", "start": 1493.415, "end": 1496.375 }, { "text": "One of the things that we were joking about is like, you know, in these Buddhist temples, the image that you see of the person, of the statues are often like, they're relaxed.", "start": 1496.375, "end": 1505.9299 }, { "text": "They're like cross legged, like either focused or they're laying down completely relaxed.", "start": 1506.39, "end": 1511.445 } ], "start": 1480.23, "end": 1511.445, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1511.445, "end": 1511.765 }, { "text": "But like, really fascinating because you think about at least like Christianity, you know, the image is Jesus on the cross dying.", "start": 1511.765, "end": 1518.645 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1518.645, "end": 1519.125 }, { "text": "You know, like, it's like if I was Jesus coming back, you know, there's a friend a joke that our friend Beth made, where it was like, you know, like why did they pick Jesus's worst moments to, like, make the infinite image that people see that then represents Christianity, that definitely has downstream effects, and I think within Christian thoughts and like, shame, sacrifice, shame, and like,", "start": 1519.125, "end": 1543.105 } ], "start": 1511.445, "end": 1543.105, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "you know,", "start": 1543.245, "end": 1543.405 } ], "start": 1543.245, "end": 1543.405, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "death and rebirth, and like, there's something with the breath, like, you know, Buddhists are, they're like praying to a guy who's chilling.", "start": 1543.405, "end": 1549.6201 }, { "text": "You know, it's very crude to say it.", "start": 1549.6201, "end": 1551.7 } ], "start": 1543.405, "end": 1551.7, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But they're not even praying to him, they're praying to the version of themselves that he's inspiring.", "start": 1551.8201, "end": 1557.04 }, { "text": "Sure, yeah.", "start": 1557.34, "end": 1558.14 }, { "text": "And you see that", "start": 1558.62, "end": 1559.58 } ], "start": 1551.8201, "end": 1559.58, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "they're like, Thai people are just like very kind.", "start": 1559.58, "end": 1561.98 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1562.06, "end": 1562.56 }, { "text": "It's been incredible, like they're such kind people.", "start": 1562.78, "end": 1564.875 }, { "text": "I haven't met like anyone who's been like really chill, like", "start": 1564.875, "end": 1569.055 } ], "start": 1559.58, "end": 1569.055, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "they're able to like just like receive whatever it is that gets thrown at them and give back love.", "start": 1569.3551, "end": 1575.4551 }, { "text": "I felt that on numerous occasions.", "start": 1575.7699, "end": 1577.21 }, { "text": "I felt myself be ashamed on a previous journey to Thailand.", "start": 1577.21, "end": 1581.1499 }, { "text": "It was what I was I happened to be with some beautiful friends who were deep enough friends with me that they called me in, right?", "start": 1581.69, "end": 1590.7051 }, { "text": "But I was an asshole, this previous time, and I was just not nice.", "start": 1590.7051, "end": 1595.105 } ], "start": 1569.3551, "end": 1595.105, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I was trying to throw my weight around, and they received it, and they were super kind and everything, and it was only thanks to my friends calling me in the next day, and they're like, dude, that was kinda not cool.", "start": 1595.105, "end": 1606.68 }, { "text": "I was like, yeah, fuck.", "start": 1606.68, "end": 1607.8 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1607.8, "end": 1608.2001 }, { "text": "I'm an asshole.", "start": 1608.2001, "end": 1609.02 }, { "text": "But but it's there's so many beautiful examples in this culture in Thailand because of that that, can sometimes get missed, I think.", "start": 1609.0801, "end": 1623.0951 } ], "start": 1595.105, "end": 1623.0951, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1623.0951, "end": 1623.495 }, { "text": "Because of there is this sort of, this layer of assumptions that we bring as just visitors to a country that can often lead us to have different expectations.", "start": 1623.495, "end": 1638.0499 }, { "text": "And I think one of the beautiful things about being able to come to a country and, be invited and also be inviting of, people who have been living here for for quite some time to actually be imagining together, you feel less like a visitor.", "start": 1638.59, "end": 1657.73 }, { "text": "You feel like a co creator.", "start": 1657.73, "end": 1659.19 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1659.49, "end": 1659.99 } ], "start": 1623.0951, "end": 1659.99, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And through that lens, you get to really start to unfurl these, like, deeper cultural reference points around, yeah, non violence, like being chill.", "start": 1660.53, "end": 1671.015 }, { "text": "You go to a temple and you see a monk who's, like, spending the time there just happily explaining to you, like, you know, whatever you wanna chat about.", "start": 1671.015, "end": 1678.775 }, { "text": "Like, nine till six, they're there, and they're, like, open monk chats.", "start": 1678.775, "end": 1681.995 }, { "text": "There's these incredible, as you're saying, like, images of, not just, like, sort of Buddhas, like, sort of lying down, but, like, Buddhas who have, like, sprouted multiple heads because they need additional faces for all the different compassion.", "start": 1682.0549, "end": 1695.16 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1695.7, "end": 1695.94 } ], "start": 1660.53, "end": 1695.94, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That they're, you know, the the the the Buddha of compassion has all of these, like, sprouting heads, and it's just this idea that compassion is this beautiful thing to be treasured, and that you can constantly be creating these new versions of yourself to be able to find compassion in a new direction.", "start": 1695.94, "end": 1712.45 }, { "text": "And so what, you know, what does it look like to have compassion for an individual like the new leader of the free world?", "start": 1712.59, "end": 1720.75 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1720.75, "end": 1721.25 }, { "text": "Because of whatever context that they had growing up, you know, that leads them to be this angry, violent, word spewing individual because of a need for some kind of dominance.", "start": 1721.47, "end": 1732.9249 }, { "text": "And, like, I mean, it's tough sometimes, but, like, I can see how that cultural and worldview just, like, sets a totally different grounding for some of these imaginings to happen.", "start": 1732.9249, "end": 1746.0801 } ], "start": 1695.94, "end": 1746.0801, "num_words": 141.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so it is a deep pleasure to be here.", "start": 1746.0801, "end": 1748.0 }, { "text": "It's a deep pleasure to be here after being in Bhutan because I think being in Bhutan helped me see that side of things here with greater clarity as well.", "start": 1748.0, "end": 1755.365 }, { "text": "And I think we all get to see different cultures and different people with new eyes every single time if we choose to.", "start": 1756.385, "end": 1765.905 }, { "text": "And I think that's also the beauty of, like, getting off of the railroad.", "start": 1765.905, "end": 1770.76 }, { "text": "Getting off", "start": 1770.76, "end": 1771.16 } ], "start": 1746.0801, "end": 1771.16, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "of the The conveyor belt.", "start": 1771.16, "end": 1772.36 } ], "start": 1771.16, "end": 1772.36, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1772.36, "end": 1772.52 }, { "text": "The conveyor belt.", "start": 1772.52, "end": 1773.24 }, { "text": "It's actually giving yourself the space to see things with with new eyes.", "start": 1773.24, "end": 1777.8201 }, { "text": "Sure.", "start": 1778.84, "end": 1779.34 }, { "text": "And and feel things with, with a new body even.", "start": 1779.64, "end": 1783.2051 } ], "start": 1772.36, "end": 1783.2051, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So like, yeah, I think", "start": 1783.2051, "end": 1784.645 } ], "start": 1783.2051, "end": 1784.645, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "the the experience of getting being now in this just like very different cultural context, you know, and actually understanding the or at least noticing the difference in how people interact and embody themselves, and like, embody themselves in like the micro politics of the everyday.", "start": 1784.645, "end": 1803.1 }, { "text": "So one of the things we were talking about before is like, you know, the way I framed it was like, you know, does the Left need a kind of etiquette?", "start": 1804.6, "end": 1810.495 }, { "text": "Like how do how do we embody ourselves to each other in a way that we can, you know, actually acknowledge that we're all going through a tough time probably, we're all like, dealing with the same shit that everybody else is dealing with, So, like, what you're you're questioning, like, you know, what is the, you know, the first thing, but if you guys so if we just met at a party, like, what would be the first question you would ask someone?", "start": 1810.635, "end": 1836.52 }, { "text": "Like, how would you begin to to meet someone and make new connections?", "start": 1836.52, "end": 1839.8 }, { "text": "Someone in a way that is, like, detached from, like, our tradition like, the usual questions of what do you do?", "start": 1839.8, "end": 1846.9451 } ], "start": 1784.645, "end": 1846.9451, "num_words": 195.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 1846.9451, "end": 1847.605 } ], "start": 1846.9451, "end": 1847.605, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And again, we were just joking that that question is actually seeking to position you in this sort of capitalist system.", "start": 1847.665, "end": 1854.305 }, { "text": "It's like how much do you earn?", "start": 1854.305, "end": 1855.8099 }, { "text": "It's like this sort of like how much capital do you have?", "start": 1855.8099, "end": 1858.2899 }, { "text": "So the different questions, might be, framed around sort of understanding someone's context.", "start": 1858.2899, "end": 1866.47 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1866.61, "end": 1866.85 } ], "start": 1847.665, "end": 1866.85, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's sort of like, oh, where do you feel local these days?", "start": 1866.85, "end": 1870.105 }, { "text": "Or, it can be, you know, we talked about this idea of attuning to a paradox and, that was just one that that came up.", "start": 1871.845, "end": 1878.725 }, { "text": "But it's sort of like, yeah, how how do you attune?", "start": 1878.725, "end": 1883.145 } ], "start": 1866.85, "end": 1883.145, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, we just missed the last question that, I asked Tony because my camera is unable to record more than 30, but, yeah, so we can, what was the the question I asked was what type of question do you think, like, if we were to meet in a party, what question would you ask someone to kind of break the the normal capitalist etiquette into a more post capitalism, a more verbal one?", "start": 1892.38, "end": 1919.51 } ], "start": 1892.38, "end": 1919.51, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We talked about the default capitalist questions being like, What do you do?", "start": 1920.31, "end": 1924.0901 }, { "text": "The underlying tone being, how much do you earn?", "start": 1924.2301, "end": 1927.195 }, { "text": "How much capital do you have?", "start": 1927.195, "end": 1928.395 }, { "text": "Where do I rank you in this sort of, like, capitalist hierarchy that's, like, built into my brain?", "start": 1928.395, "end": 1932.575 }, { "text": "I hate that question.", "start": 1933.115, "end": 1934.015 } ], "start": 1920.31, "end": 1934.015, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Generally questions that, put people slightly into a space of not having answered it before.", "start": 1934.955, "end": 1943.61 }, { "text": "You want to bring people into a creative space, a co creative space, ideally.", "start": 1944.4701, "end": 1948.79 }, { "text": "So I have taken to asking questions like how do you attune to a paradox?", "start": 1948.79, "end": 1953.585 }, { "text": "Or what contradictions have you been dealing with in your life?", "start": 1953.6649, "end": 1956.145 }, { "text": "And it's, it's a pretty heavy one to sort of, like, kick off with, but it also, like I said, it kind of takes people out of that default thread.", "start": 1956.145, "end": 1962.8049 } ], "start": 1934.955, "end": 1962.8049, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think that, for me, is one of those areas where joy is found.", "start": 1962.945, "end": 1967.105 }, { "text": "I play music mostly through improvisation, I don't really play songs that have been written out, and it's fun, but it's not the kind of full joy space that I like to embody, and I think it's the same as with conversations.", "start": 1967.105, "end": 1980.9299 }, { "text": "If a conversation is coming from a space of creativity, it's not being rehearsed, but it's actually just coming out of a space of thought and having to consider and imagine, that's the space I think we need to get into with our sort of crypto socialist ethic, this, etiquette of originality when it comes to our diplomacies.", "start": 1980.99, "end": 2001.6901 }, { "text": "I think diplomacy is something that, you know, we're definitely taking out of the nation state space and putting into our, like, empowered we", "start": 2002.31, "end": 2007.8987 } ], "start": 1962.945, "end": 2007.8987, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "can actually build relationships that have these deeper, more", "start": 2007.8987, "end": 2008.1044 } ], "start": 2007.8987, "end": 2008.1044, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "fundamental, long term impact.", "start": 2008.1044, "end": 2008.9 }, { "text": "Etiquettes to the ways that we, you know, offer each other space for co creative imagination, and and explicitly take people out of that default mode network of capitalist thinking and into this space of, oh, we can be a bit creative here.", "start": 2018.575, "end": 2034.47 }, { "text": "We can be a bit fun here.", "start": 2034.47, "end": 2035.51 }, { "text": "We can actually open up into a bit of, like, potential vulnerability space or even complexity, right?", "start": 2035.51, "end": 2042.0951 }, { "text": "The idea that you don't need to have the solid, acceptable answer in any context, but things can be complicated.", "start": 2042.555, "end": 2049.695 } ], "start": 2008.1044, "end": 2049.695, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2050.155, "end": 2050.395 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2050.395, "end": 2050.635 }, { "text": "I think one of the risks and joys of asking these types of questions, of course, is a way that you can do it that's like kind of annoying, but then there's a way you can do it that I think that is like actually like productive is like that if you do ask a question then, and they act weird about it, like you will then get to quickly know are they with it a little bit as well.", "start": 2050.635, "end": 2071.185 }, { "text": "It's also a bit of a vibe check of course, as well.", "start": 2071.185, "end": 2075.265 }, { "text": "But I think it it like helps people I think part of being a post capitalist subject is that you then are pushed into thinking about yourself in a system, in the world, and not just what do you do, is just sort of like this is the cog, like this is the cog that I'm in without thinking about the machine, like what contradictions are you dealing with or like, you know, I know I'm within a system that has all these things going on, and I have to react to them in many ways that maybe go against my what I would normally do otherwise or whatever else, and just acknowledges that we're all dealing with contradictions, and that's kind of okay.", "start": 2075.265, "end": 2110.605 } ], "start": 2050.155, "end": 2110.605, "num_words": 218.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It also opens up space for difficult things.", "start": 2110.605, "end": 2115.0798 }, { "text": "And most of the time, it's hard to talk about difficult things.", "start": 2115.14, "end": 2120.02 }, { "text": "But if we can create containers for that, and we're actually expressing an interest and curiosity in Mhmm.", "start": 2120.02, "end": 2124.9448 }, { "text": "Not just the simple answer.", "start": 2125.145, "end": 2126.025 }, { "text": "I'm not just gonna categorize you.", "start": 2126.025, "end": 2127.725 } ], "start": 2110.605, "end": 2127.725, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm actually here to maybe offer a bit of care.", "start": 2128.025, "end": 2130.905 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2130.905, "end": 2131.305 }, { "text": "I think these these are the sorts of, like, out of default, oh, this is interesting.", "start": 2131.305, "end": 2137.405 }, { "text": "This is not normal.", "start": 2137.545, "end": 2138.88 }, { "text": "Like, somebody is actually really interested in me as a whole person, that's kind of cool.", "start": 2138.88, "end": 2143.22 } ], "start": 2128.025, "end": 2143.22, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "start": 2144.7998, "end": 2145.3599 }, { "text": "So there you go, that's how you have post capitalist etiquette, ask weird questions at parties, you're becoming really popular.", "start": 2145.3599, "end": 2152.995 } ], "start": 2144.7998, "end": 2152.995, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "With the right kind of", "start": 2153.7751, "end": 2154.895 } ], "start": 2153.7751, "end": 2154.895, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "crew.", "start": 2154.895, "end": 2155.395 }, { "text": "Thanks.", "start": 2156.655, "end": 2157.135 } ], "start": 2154.895, "end": 2157.135, "num_words": 2.0, 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