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One way way of describing what MetaGov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers and hackers held together by a Slack and some vibes. The Internet doesn't have to be shitty. It is. We don't need to take the Internet down this path of intitification. Yeah. It is it is a choice we can make. The advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit. You can just progress in certain ways. It's mind blowing and, horrifying at the same time. Discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source. Right? That was a fundamentally new way of producing useful stuff in the world that nobody had seen before. Hey, guys. What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four. I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person. DevCon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon. So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and Blockchain Socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist. Hi, everyone. You're listening to another episode of, the blockchain socialist with much higher production value than I'm ever gonna get in my life here at Defcon twenty twenty four in Bangkok. I I am Josh, and I am here with my interviewee, Josh. Josh Tan, this is the takeover of the Josh's on this episode. Josh, you're the founder of Medigov, which is also the sponsor of my hat. And as well, you know, just to to be, to be transparent and honest, kind of my boss at DAOSTAR, if that counts. Very flat hierarchy. My, my my co collaborator at DAOSTAR where I work, part time as well as the grand standard lead. Maybe we can talk about that in a little bit just to take advantage of this amazing set. I can talk about that work. But to start off, maybe we can just, yeah, talk a bit about, I mean, one, I think your story is, like, really fascinating because you do too many things, and I don't know how you do it. And so maybe I think if you can give, like, a high level introduction of all these things and, like, what Medigov is, and then we can go from there into very spicy takes about AI and blockchains. Sweet. Let's do it. Well, first off, thanks for having me. So my story, I guess, or why the hell I do do what I do. Honestly, I asked you to list off you can just, like, list off list off the things high level. Sure. Yep. So, obviously, one of the things I work on is Medigov. So Medigov is a nonprofit research lab that specializes in digital governance, and I should say especially in digital self governance. It's like how do online communities govern themselves. And as part of this, we do do a lot of different research across a lot of different spaces. So we do we're funded, for example, by the Ford Foundation, Sloan Foundation to do research on sort of how we can model and, sort of, calculate the costs of transitioning from, let's say, a closed source product into an open source product or from a BDFL, like a one person running an open source repo to many people running a repo. Like, it's like, what is the cost and the risk of going from point a to point b? We do a lot of work within, AI. So we, and I guess I in particular help lead one of our projects called public AI, or AI is public infrastructure. And the idea of public AI is that, you know, maybe AI should be offered kind of like, you know, we offer or support public goods like public libraries or public highways or public parks. Imagine Think of, like, a BBC for AI or a PBS for AI. Instead of the world that we seem to be as we're trending toward right now, where power in this industry is concentrated within maybe two or three companies in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Right. And of course, I'm companies in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Right. And of course, I do, I and Medigov, we do a lot of work in DAOs and blockchains. By some measures, we probably do the most research on DAOs of any organization in the world, inclusive of any university. And part of that involves running DAOSTAR, which is the standards body for DAOs. Yeah. Which DAOSTAR is the product that I'm also, working part time at, as the grand standard lead. I guess, DAOSTAR if I can if I can describe DAOSTAR, I just think of it as a body for creating, standards for DAOs, largely technical standards. But I think maybe, you know, there is there is, room to think about other types of standards maybe besides technical ones I think would be interesting at some point. But, yeah, I think the, the kind of, like, big thing that is coming up with DAO star is the grand standard, which I'm leading, in which we have a standard to, I like I think in in short, just, like, improve the transparency and interoperability of the Web three grants ecosystem, making grants data public public information so that we would be able to actually, do the analysis of what's going on in these Web three grants programs, where that money is coming from, where that money is going, and build the foundations for more robust types of, maybe, like, governance systems around grants, reputation systems, hopefully, not in a dystopian way. It's Common applications? A common application is is another big one. So imagine writing one application for a 100 grants or whatever else, and just, like, massively reducing the amount of time you have to spend on grants, which, yeah, I think is important in part because, I do think that, like, there is you know, we the in order for, a side of the crypto space or web three, whatever you wanna call it space, to have a space that is different than the VC backed side of crypto, then we do need to compete to some extent of, like, allowing people to receive grants in, like, a way that is not so cumbersome that people just say, you know, fuck it. I'm gonna get venture capital. Yes. Yeah. There are a lot of reasons I think we absolutely need this grant center. And, honestly, you more than anyone, I think I've seen the response we've gotten from this ecosystem where it's like everybody we talk to, whether it's, like, one of the cofounders of Optimism or Awakie from Gitcoin or Stellar or Octant or like, everybody agrees. Like, everybody agrees. Like, this is so necessary. And it's kinda, like, obviously necessary. Right? Like, like, it would be amazing if we had this. And now, hopefully, we're getting closer. Mhmm. I think maybe, like, another way of maybe, like, putting into into, like, understanding the scale of this, like, what we could actually accomplish. This is something that, traditional foundations have been trying to do for, like, sixty odd years. Right? Yeah. Like every ten years or so, you know, the Rockefeller Foundation or, like, Sloan Foundation or one of these, like, big, you know, well founded foundation says, like, oh, we should do something like this. We should have, like, a common application across our organizations. And they say, like, let's do it. And then they do it. It fails invariably. And then, like, twenty years later, they forget the failure, and they try it again. I think we're actually have a much better shot at getting something that's truly scalable. I'm realizing this interoperable vision for grants because, I think, because of what Web three is giving us, because of the data infrastructure that we kinda just get for free that would take potentially, you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars of investment to get us to. Mhmm. But, yeah, I think there is there is something at least for the the best sides of crypto. I think there's, you know, there there is, like, a a desire largely within the space for coordination between each other that doesn't really exist in most traditional, industries or or spaces, however you want to call it. So I think there is there is something to take advantage of, at least now, while the while the feeling for collaboration is still hot to do that. But, but so, yeah, I think standards for DAOs, very important because of all these things we just mentioned. But I really wanna talk about I wanna take, like, a a step back on, like, broadly this idea around, the need for collaboration in the in the crypto space. If you have any thoughts on it, at least, I guess, the Medigob does a lot of things around online governance, but I imagine that in part comes from a place of, like, feeling that, we do need to coalesce around certain standards and certain, like, maybe shared within, the Internet space in a similar way that, like, is what I'm now forgetting the names, of course, the other standard bodies of the Internet have done before us. So I think, like, standards are definitely a big play within MediCove. We run not one, but two standards bodies, actually. One of the other ones is called Comtech. So there's a project within MediCove called the Comtech Foundation, which publishes standards for, you know, tech that is actually respectful of your attention. And more broadly, Medigov is, like, kinda what draws people to Medigov as a okay. One way of describing what Medigov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers Yeah. And hackers, held together by a Slack and some vibes. Like, it really is, like, deeply informal in a way. Yeah. And people kinda hang out because, you know, it's like it's it's a community of people who, like, a community of people who, like, really love building communities, especially kinds of online communities. Right? And standards are very much, like, part of that play. Like, what do you need to get a standard? You're effectively building, like, a coalition of the willing. Right? Of people who might be competing with each other in normal circumstances, but have said, like, you know, we care about some common objective, some shared goal enough to say that, you know, we're gonna get together and, like, put our energy into writing this piece of of paper that I don't own and I'm giving to my competitor. It's, like, for free. It it's it's you know, you need some sort of, like, coalescing to to make that happen. You need that community. It is I think Medigiv has been able to attract a lot of very smart people, a lot of, like, academics. I think I realized the other day that I've, like, interviewed, like, at least more than half of the board of Medica, which has been very funny. Not my intention at all. I didn't realize. Only after when I looked at the board, I was like, oh, they've all been on at some point. Yeah. It's it's attracted a lot of people. A lot of researchers, definitely our our get togethers are more, academic and more chill than, like, if you go to a DeFi party, in Thailand or something like that. Definitely a different vibe. A little different now. A lot of people who are there for for very different reasons than maybe the the dGen. Yeah. Yeah. One of the, you know, we've been hosting these, like, tradition of foundation and nonprofit dinners, for, like, four years now or so. And, you know, what I always kind of the way I always introduce it is, like, back in the day, in the early days of Web one, the legendary Brewster Kahle, founder of the Internet Archive and many other projects, you know, brought together people from the EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, from the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, from, W3C, you know, which, like, operates the standards for HTML, like, that was founded by Tim Berners Lee. These were, like, the founders, the original founders of the Internet. And Brewster brought these people together for, you know, on a regular basis, like, for a chill, no chill, you know, series of dinners to figure out, like, how do we make sure that the Internet itself is something that is gonna benefit everybody rather than something that, you know, just a bunch of companies are looking at figuring out how do I extract the maximum amount of value. Right? Right. I think that's the hope of these dinners and these communities and these events that we try to hold is that try to hold space for, you know, all the people in Web3 that are really, like, thinking, like, who are committed to this idea that this is something that can be actually for the social benefit, that can be for the public good. The Internet doesn't have to be shitty. And We don't need to take the Internet down this path of of intitification. Yeah. It is it is a choice we can make. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's something that I say often on my podcast, in my in my mid role whenever I'm trying to sell people to donate to my Patreon. You know, it very it doesn't have to be used, as crypto doesn't have to use for furthering for entrenching further capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it. So, like, if we try, like, to to put you know, to recognize the power that we have, you know, collectively with us together, like, we can change the direction and not simply let, you know, insert billionaire tech guy here to control, you know, half of it or whatever. I think that I mean, my feeling is that this is going to become, like, ever increasingly more importance in probably the short term, probably now, potentially with even this new administration coming, in The US. You know, because, you know, all all respect to the already existing, like, standards bodies, I think they, you know, they're doing the best that they can. I think there has there's clearly been, however, like, intratification has happened. Yeah. And there is something to to to acknowledge. And I think, at least, the the person's work that I go to when I think about this is, like, Nathan Schneider, thinking about, like, the ownership and governance of these platforms is actually incredibly important and not just the underlying, like, rails of the movement of of rails of the movement of of of data. While that is important, you know, one thing that maybe has been kind of a a blind spot for a lot of these bodies has been the governance of these of these platforms and how do we govern them better and simply allowing rather them to be these kind of, like, play toys of of of, yeah, very wealthy people in Silicon Valley. So I was just having a it's like a long email thread involving some people, including Nathan Snyder. And maybe the best way I can introduce this subject with this kind of conversation is something about one of my mentors, Lawrence Lessig, used to say is that, you know, America and he's folks in America, but I think something we can say about many parts of the world, and many industries, is kind of, like, stuck on this wheel of market power. Yeah. It's just Yeah. You know, we build monopolies. We gain make money to further make more money, which ultimately kind of sucks the air out of many of the other kinds of institutions that we care about. Institutions like democracy, let's say, or institutions like, I don't know, public health. Like, there's this, way in which the market which is, like, within I think we can agree that, you're the blockchain socialist, not the blockchain communist. That in many ways, like, market dynamics, market forces are a powerful and important component of many societies. Right? To have that kind of decentralized decision making infrastructure, or information processing in the Hayek sense. But, like, there's a way in which these things can, like, go out of control. Right? And they start to sabotage and undermine the very institutions that make markets function. Right? Institutions of the state, of rule of law. And that's the kind of path, this wheel that we sort of like we can't seem to stop. And I don't know. Like when I think about these kind of questions I'm like you know many would a lot of times I'm just at a loss. It's just such a huge problem. Like how do you stop this like giant force of, billions of people and trillions of dollars, like, moving in inexorably toward this direction? And I feel like, you know, governance is part of the answer. But I maybe, help us, you know, maybe help us, you know, start to peel back direction? How do we, like, build the tools and start, you know, initializing these movements? At least that's the, you know, the thought process that we had when we were starting Medigiv, that it was not enough to be just advocating for, like, policy changes within traditional governments and traditional power structures. Right. We needed to be, in some sense, starting our own projects, starting, like, fresh companies that were organized better, more democratically, or at least in a way that, you know, you could see at the end of the at the end of the tunnel that this was gonna be better for society. Mhmm. That this was actually gonna make a difference for humanity rather than just for, like, this set of, like, you know, stockholders and their bottom line. Right. Yeah. I mean, definitely, wholeheartedly wholeheartedly agree that, we're at a point where the market has kind of, like, overtaken rule of law, and if you wanna say it like that, or just, like, has destroyed, or has, like, chipped away at these kind of, like, civil institutions that we once, like, took for granted, I think, to now they're just, like, completely taken over, much of the economy to the detriment, I think, of larger society. And this is particularly true in the just, like, digital age where things move so quickly and can move so quickly. And I've my my hunch is that with AI, this is simply getting worse. AI is being, you know, potential paperclip machines, you know, things that optimize for a particular thing. And then, yeah. Having having AI agents that can autonomously do whatever we whatever they can do, over the Internet through digital systems, which are so fundamental to so many of our our, like, institutions today that it can wreak quite a bit of havoc. There is we were talking earlier today, and I I am I'm curious to go into it a little bit. I really hated this thing that that Peter Thiel said, and I've mentioned it before. But, I think if I were to I want to, like, go into the thing that I think is actually if I go to deeper into it, but, you know, to get people's attention, you know, he said, he said, crypto is libertarian and AI is communist, which I think is, very ridiculous and completely, and but he's of course, he said it to be, like, edgy to be tongue in cheek or whatever. But I think kind of the thing that it gets at I think for me, it's actually, maybe even I mean, I would I would argue perhaps you you could argue even the opposite, but, AI represents to me this potential for just, like, unfettered positive feedback loops for the accumulation of capital, more so than even that we have today, which can probably exacerbate a lot of inequalities. But blockchains or crypto, however you want to call it, it to me, it represents governance, actually. And that as a space for, like, being able to, invite others to take part in decision making in ways that our institutions are wholly unequipped to to do so. Mhmm. And while I think there is still this maybe a little bit of, like, a technocratic bend in the crypto space that maybe needs to we need to get over, it does, like, I I I I can see, like, very much just seeing the things that are being built that we can offer an alternative, to people, so that we can add some, you know, add some pumps to pump the brake a little bit on perhaps, like, unfettered AIs everywhere, trading meme coins and, like, extracting value, whatever they can. You know? Yeah. No. Absolutely. Maybe, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna maybe put this in a slightly weird way. But so I began my career actually, in robotics. And my PhD, at least in the beginning, was actually about, was actually in AI. It was in theoretical machine learning. It was, like, pro making proving theorems about, like, the behaviors of certain kinds of algorithms, learning algorithms, trying to find structure in these kinds of questions. And I ended up leaving AI for, let's say, you know, let's say a certain kind of social science, DAOs, collective intelligence. Lots of reasons, which are very complicated for for that. But the, when I think about, like, these disciplines and how they relate, you know, I think of blockchains and DAOs as very much a question, like, you know, we're looking at how humans interact with each other. We're studying collective intelligence of, like, many, many people kind of, like, interacting to generate whether it's a market or a company or a DAO or a blockchain. There's some sort of collective exercise and collective experience. You know, there's, like, this, you know, this community that's created out of out of our joint imaginations. But AI is, along with all the other things that it is and absolutely is, I think, concentrating power in our society, as a field where it's also like, you know, it's a very deep, it is a record of over eighty years and more, I suppose, of people, especially a set of, like, let's say, like, applied mathematicians, trying to figure out how to interact with the world. Right? There's this record within, sort of, the history of AI going from, you know, there's, good old fashioned symbolic logical methods to sort of early kinds of robotics to now the sort of modern era of, you know, these giant net deep nets that really come down to different ways of interacting with the world, right? These different ways of imagining this is how I'm gonna be in the world. This is what it means to experience and to learn. I think there's a lot of things that we could learn that we when I say we I mean like people in blockchain in DAOs who are thinking about like how do we design new kinds of institutions that we can learn from the practice of AI over the past eighty years that I think if we could learn correctly, could fundamentally change and supercharge, the way we build institutions today. That we, in fact, the way maybe we build companies, that we build democracies. I don't think we know what those answers are yet, but I I I truly believe they are there. I mean, what what do you think you're saying there are things that we can learn from the history of AI. Do you have any any specific points you wanna do you think better then? So, like, a lot of okay. So some of these are, like, direct analogies. You can sort of say, oh, there are, you know, different kinds of multi agent architectures or kind of like, ensemble methods within machine learning that are variations and perhaps more sophistic more sophisticated kinds of voting methods. Right? And you can sort of, like, take these analogies and map them into, the way we design institutions in DAOs. Another is just sort of like, oh, look at, you know, these kind of, like, generative adversarial networks. Right? Where, like, there's, like, you know, two agents playing kind of zero game, like, a zero sum game against each other. But in a way, that's designed to produce something that's better than either could achieve. Right? Because they're competing against one another. Or variations of self play, like, you know, when we, like, train chess, agents or StarCraft agents nowadays, we have them play against themselves. These kinds of designs, these kinds of like sort of like differentiable architectures, can be applied and, you know, we can sort of use them to reason about and think about, like, how do we design multiple institutions? Like, within DAOs today, you know, we there's just, like, you know, there's this meme of, like, this mycelium, this kind of ecological organic, like, cellular network, like, different organelles of a DAO interacting with each other. Right? There is, like, parts of AI are thinking about how to, like, map that, how to construct it so we can better understand it and, like, tune in a way so it's actually producing, like, optimum social good rather than just, like, all these things competing against each other and going, like, crazy. Right? So these are tools that we can start applying from day one. I think there's a deeper set of things you can unlock if you really understand, like, how AI has been built from a methodological perspective. This is like a larger set of conversations that I think I like to sort of call like a CERN for collective intelligence or CERN for, like, the social and behavioral sciences. That has to do with understanding, like, why the hell has AI, like, moved so fast and made such progress, in the past twenty, thirty years? And how can we start replicating that in the social and behavioral sciences? Like, in how we design institutions? Yeah. I mean, I think the the advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit. You can just kind of, like I think it's a bit easier to progress in certain ways in certain respects. But, indeed, I think there is there is probably a lot to say for, like, what are the types of social institutions that, you know, autonomous AI agents end up making themselves amongst each other. If we just, like, let them go a little bit and see if, like, what kind of learnings are there. I would love to I mean, someone must be doing the experiment already who is, you know, the, is just making a DAO of autonomous agents and see what happens. I I don't think, we've gone yet to DAO of autonomous agents. Soon. Soon. Soon. You heard it here first. Actually oh, man. I actually registered, like, the dye.xyz, to do actually this, like, the decentralized AI Oh, okay. But also playing on the DAO. This is, like, a thing that I think Ori, one of the sort of founders of the org, and I were kinda brainstorming on during the first Zuzalu, actually. Uh-huh. Ultimately, it didn't happen, but it definitely would be such a fun experiment to run. The, but there's there's a lot of this happening outside the blockchain space. I think, like, I was just talking to a professor at UW. His name first name is Max. His last name, I cannot remember right now. But, he, wrote a paper on, basically, governance simulations with LOMs. There's a kind of wide range of these kinds of research that are coming out where I have, like, just a bunch of AI agents that are interacting with each other with some within some controlled environment, and we're just kind of, like, playing it off and see what can happen see what happens. I still believe though, like, at the end of the day, these are all as fun and sophisticated as they can sometimes be. They are all just toy models, and there is no replacing the actual real world. At the end of the day, if you want to make progress in these things, you need to be able to run experiments with real people. I think that's the difference between a DAO and some of these, like, AI test beds. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I've just been thinking about too much too much about AI lately. Just it it's been kind of like a a theme throughout my time in Thailand a little bit with something coming up with, like, the I don't know if I should mention, like like, the all the meme coin AI agent stuff is just it's mind blowing and, horrifying at the same time. So, just just a warning in case you you look it up what it is, be careful with what pictures you look at. But, yes. I mean, we were also talking earlier. I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on, like, what you think DAOs ought to be in some way. So, like, I was I listened to a talk a couple days ago from Left Terrace where he said a DAO is not a company, which I completely agree with. A DAO is not a company. It should be it's something else or it should be something else if we want it if you want DAOs to provide some sort of alternative. If a DAO is a company, then we're just recreating the same thing, except now, you know, may at least partially untethered to, you know, state regulation, which maybe that's what you want. That's not I mean, at least I can say that's not what I want. So I think there are two different perspectives on what a DAO is. Mhmm. And I I will make a statement and say, like, what my perspective is, but I just wanna kinda, like, highlight. There's the movement perspective on what a DAO is. It's so important to understand, like, that this is, like, core to the people who actually build DAOs in many ways. That, you know, DAOs need to be decentralized. That they're about offering something that is new to this economy than just traditional corporations. That, you know, DAOs are kinda like digital versions of co ops. Right? Like, exploring how we can make cooperative structures, union based structures, you know, communal structures more viable and more competitive, and using technology to do that. So, like, this is founders of a mutualist society and an incredible person. So there's the movement notion of a DAO. But then there's also the money. Right? And I think let's we have to be honest with ourselves as an ecosystem. Like, the reason so many people pay attention to this space is because there are billion dollar DAOs that are floating around out there that are making a lot of money and generating, I think a lot of, let's say, surplus that is then going back into both the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about. Right? But the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about. Right? But, like, there are these, like, red hot engines, economic engines, which are generating and spinning out wealth. And the fact that, you know, these things, these, like, DeFi, these large DeFi DAOs, which, you know, oftentimes can and look like very corporate, right, just, like, slightly, like, if you, like, just, like, fuzz your eyes a little bit, like, the Duke start to look a little bit like corporations. I think many ways they're they're really not. Mhmm. I think these are both, like, legit and real perspectives that, like, a lot of people hold in this space. And, like, when I sort of look at this, when I'm, Iim, like, putting my hat, like, my DAO star hat on, like, I need to say yes to both parties. Right? I need to be a representative of the entire DAO space, both the movement and the money. Right? Money. Right? Okay. So let me take off my institutional hat and just, like, put on my Josh hat and, like, say, like, what what I what do I think about DAOs? Or what do I where do I want them to go? Let out. For me I am here and in some sense I'm here like in MediGov because I want to see because I think I am have a much better chance of seeing and discovering truly new forms of organization that have not been seen before, in these spaces than anywhere else. Like, discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source. Right? That was a fundamentally new way of, you know, producing useful stuff in the world that anybody like, nobody had seen before. That was only possible because of the Internet, because of the nature of software. And I wanna see more stuff like that, more innovation, more knowledge. And sometimes I think this innovation can look like figure out like, solving deeply unsexy problems around, like, how do we coordinate or manage rights and sort of HR kinds of things that I think DAOs could be really good at. Right? So DAOs, in this sense, could be, like, much much better corporations. Right? More compliant, more transparent, better governed, more productive. It could also look like, wow, these are like this is like changing the the possibilities of governance, so that we can have more competitive, bigger scale, cooperative kind of structures that are, like, giving back to the communities that they serve. That it's, you know, in MedecoF, we like to say, like, you know, making democracy at least as available as autocracy. The idea would be that autocracy is, like, pretty easy to implement in tech. Democracy is hard. Yeah. But part of the idea of doing research is not that we prefer one the other. Like, sometimes you you need, like, one person calling the shots in a small in a small company, for example. Right? But it's, like, at least making it possible to sort of say, like, you know, here here's an alternative. Let let's see if it could be right or let's lower the cost of implementing this alternative. Yeah. No. I think I think that's the still the main for me, the the thing that still excites me even when I'm, like, annoyed with the crypto space is that, like, blockchains and crypto are a technology for, like, building institutions or for building, at the very least, the scaffolding of institutions to come. And we're at I think we are at or close to an a we can do something different. And I think, the do something different side of this argument is much more compelling for just a a vast array of people. I think the the people who simply want more efficient companies are, you know, they they do have, like, potentially the money on their side, but I don't think that they have, like, public opinion on their side. And so I think we have this opportunity to offer, like, a just a a way to very differently relate to, civic organizations, organizations through the Internet in a way that we simply either haven't been able to yet or simply have not had the the, the moment in which to transition into something that is more democratic. So, yeah, so I think this this is this is, like, a lot of what Nathan Schneider talks about in his book, Governable Spaces, which I really enjoyed, and I spoke to him about it previously on the podcast, that, yeah, the Internet, in some ways has been democratizing on some centralizing force for, for other things as well. So, yeah, we have now the technology to do it, and we need to out collaborate the the the weirdo corporatists in order to, make something different. We need to build. Yeah. We gotta build. So, yeah. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing all your work. And now if you want to share, leave a plug for people. Is there anything people should check out, you think, or, website or things they should follow? Yeah. So, both Medigov and DAOSTAR are very open communities. Just go to medigov.org, daostar.org. You'll find ways to join our respective online communities and start getting plugged in and actually contribute to some standards. Yeah. Let's do it. Come come and help me, evangelize the grant standard. DAO IP five. Yes. Let's do it. Yes. Right. Right. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. 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Instead of the world where power in this industry is concentrated within maybe two or three companies in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Right? What Web3 is giving us because of the data infrastructure that we kind of just get for free that would take potentially, you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars in investment to get us to.\n\nOne way way of describing what MetaGov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers and hackers held together by a Slack and some vibes.\n\nSpeaker 1: The Internet doesn't have to be shitty.\n\nSpeaker 0: It is. We don't need to take the Internet down this path of intitification. Yeah. It is it is a choice we can make.\n\nSpeaker 1: The advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit. You can just progress in certain ways. It's mind blowing and, horrifying\n\nSpeaker 2: at the\n\nSpeaker 1: same time.\n\nSpeaker 0: Discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source. Right? That was a fundamentally new way of producing useful stuff in the world that nobody had seen before.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hey, guys. What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four. I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person. DevCon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon. So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and Blockchain Socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist.\n\nHi, everyone. You're listening to another episode of, the blockchain socialist with much higher production value than I'm ever gonna get in my life here at Defcon twenty twenty four in Bangkok. I I am Josh, and I am here with my interviewee, Josh. Josh Tan, this is the takeover of the Josh's on this episode. Josh, you're the founder of Medigov, which is also the sponsor of my hat.\n\nAnd as well, you know, just to to be, to be transparent and honest, kind of my boss at DAOSTAR, if that counts.\n\nSpeaker 0: Very flat hierarchy.\n\nSpeaker 1: My, my my co collaborator at DAOSTAR where I work, part time as well as the grand standard lead. Maybe we can talk about that in a little bit just to take advantage of this amazing set. I can talk about that work. But to start off, maybe we can just, yeah, talk a bit about, I mean, one, I think your story is, like, really fascinating because you do too many things, and I don't know how you do it. And so maybe I think if you can give, like, a high level introduction of all these things and, like, what Medigov is, and then we can go from there into very spicy takes about AI and blockchains.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sweet. Let's do it. Well, first off, thanks for having me. So my story, I guess, or why the hell I do do what I do. Honestly, I asked\n\nSpeaker 1: you to list off you can just, like, list off list off the things high level.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sure. Yep. So, obviously, one of the things I work on is Medigov. So Medigov is a nonprofit research lab that specializes in digital governance, and I should say especially in digital self governance. It's like how do online communities govern themselves.\n\nAnd as part of this, we do do a lot of different research across a lot of different spaces. So we do we're funded, for example, by the Ford Foundation, Sloan Foundation to do research on sort of how we can model and, sort of, calculate the costs of transitioning from, let's say, a closed source product into an open source product or from a BDFL, like a one person running an open source repo to many people running a repo. Like, it's like, what is the cost and the risk of going from point a to point b? We do a lot of work within, AI. So we, and I guess I in particular help lead one of our projects called public AI, or AI is public infrastructure.\n\nAnd the idea of public AI is that, you know, maybe AI should be offered kind of like, you know, we offer or support public goods like public libraries or public highways or public parks. Imagine Think of, like, a BBC for AI or a PBS for AI. Instead of the world that we seem to be as we're trending toward right now, where power in this industry is concentrated within maybe two or three companies in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Right.\n\nAnd of course, I'm companies in Silicon Valley.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Right.\n\nSpeaker 0: And of course, I do, I and Medigov, we do a lot of work in DAOs and blockchains. By some measures, we probably do the most research on DAOs of any organization in the world, inclusive of any university. And part of that involves running DAOSTAR, which is the standards body for DAOs.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Which DAOSTAR is the product that I'm also, working part time at, as the grand standard lead. I guess, DAOSTAR if I can if I can describe DAOSTAR, I just think of it as a body for creating, standards for DAOs, largely technical standards. But I think maybe, you know, there is there is, room to think about other types of standards maybe besides technical ones I think would be interesting at some point. But, yeah, I think the, the kind of, like, big thing that is coming up with DAO star is the grand standard, which I'm leading, in which we have a standard to, I like I think in in short, just, like, improve the transparency and interoperability of the Web three grants ecosystem, making grants data public public information so that we would be able to actually, do the analysis of what's going on in these Web three grants programs, where that money is coming from, where that money is going, and build the foundations for more robust types of, maybe, like, governance systems around grants, reputation systems, hopefully, not in a dystopian way.\n\nSpeaker 2: It's\n\nSpeaker 0: Common applications?\n\nSpeaker 1: A common application is is another big one. So imagine writing one application for a 100 grants\n\nSpeaker 2: or whatever else,\n\nSpeaker 1: and just, like, massively reducing the amount of time you have to spend on grants, which, yeah, I think is important in part because, I do think that, like, there is you know, we the in order for, a side of the crypto space or web three, whatever you wanna call it space, to have a space that is different than the VC backed side of crypto, then we do need to compete to some extent of, like, allowing people to receive grants in, like, a way that is not so cumbersome that people just say, you know, fuck it. I'm gonna get venture capital.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yes. Yeah. There are a lot of reasons I think we absolutely need this grant center. And, honestly, you more than anyone, I think I've seen the response we've gotten from this ecosystem where it's like everybody we talk to, whether it's, like, one of the cofounders of Optimism or Awakie from Gitcoin or Stellar or Octant or like, everybody agrees. Like, everybody agrees.\n\nLike, this is so necessary. And it's kinda, like, obviously necessary. Right? Like, like, it would be amazing if we had this. And now, hopefully, we're getting closer.\n\nMhmm. I think maybe, like, another way of maybe, like, putting into into, like, understanding the scale of this, like, what we could actually accomplish. This is something that, traditional foundations have been trying to do for, like, sixty odd years. Right? Yeah.\n\nLike every ten years or so, you know, the Rockefeller Foundation or, like, Sloan Foundation or one of these, like, big, you know, well founded foundation says, like, oh, we should do something like this. We should have, like, a common application across our organizations. And they say, like, let's do it. And then they do it. It fails invariably.\n\nAnd then, like, twenty years later, they forget the failure, and they try\n\nSpeaker 1: it again.\n\nSpeaker 0: I think we're actually have a much better shot at getting something that's truly scalable. I'm realizing this interoperable vision for grants because, I think, because of what Web three is giving us, because of the data infrastructure that we kinda just get for free that would take potentially, you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars of investment to get us to. Mhmm. But,\n\nSpeaker 2: yeah, I\n\nSpeaker 1: think there is there is something at least for the the best sides of crypto. I think there's, you know, there there is, like, a a desire largely within the space for coordination between each other that doesn't really exist in most traditional, industries or or spaces, however you want to call it. So I think there is there is something to take advantage of, at least now, while the while the feeling for collaboration is still hot to do that. But, but so, yeah, I think standards for DAOs, very important because of all these things we just mentioned. But I really wanna talk about I wanna take, like, a a step back on, like, broadly this idea around, the need for collaboration in the in the crypto space.\n\nIf you have any thoughts on it, at least, I guess, the Medigob does a lot of things around online governance, but I imagine that in part comes from a place of, like, feeling that, we do need to coalesce around certain standards and certain, like, maybe shared within, the Internet space in a similar way that, like, is what I'm now forgetting the names, of course, the other standard bodies of the Internet have done before us. So I think, like,\n\nSpeaker 0: standards are definitely a big play within MediCove. We run not one, but two standards bodies, actually. One of the other ones is called Comtech. So there's a project within MediCove called the Comtech Foundation, which publishes standards for, you know, tech that is actually respectful of your attention. And more broadly, Medigov is, like, kinda what draws people to Medigov as a okay.\n\nOne way of describing what Medigov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers\n\nSpeaker 2: Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 0: And hackers, held together by a Slack and some vibes. Like, it really is, like, deeply informal in a way. Yeah. And people kinda hang out because, you know, it's like it's it's a community of people who, like, a community of people who, like, really love building communities, especially kinds of online communities. Right?\n\nAnd standards are very much, like, part of that play. Like, what do you need to get a standard? You're effectively building, like, a coalition of the willing. Right? Of people who might be competing with each other in normal circumstances, but have said, like, you know, we care about some common objective, some shared goal enough to say that, you know, we're gonna get together and, like, put our energy into writing this piece of of paper that I don't own and I'm giving to my competitor.\n\nIt's, like, for free. It it's it's you know, you need some sort of, like, coalescing to to make that happen. You need that community.\n\nSpeaker 1: It is I think Medigiv has been able to attract a lot of very smart people, a lot of, like, academics. I think I realized the other day that I've, like, interviewed, like, at least more than half of the board of Medica, which has been very funny. Not my intention at all. I didn't realize. Only after when I looked at the board, I was like, oh, they've all been on at some point.\n\nYeah. It's it's attracted a lot of people. A lot of researchers, definitely our our get togethers are more, academic and more chill than, like, if you go to a DeFi party, in Thailand or something like that. Definitely a different vibe. A little\n\nSpeaker 0: different now.\n\nSpeaker 1: A lot of people who are there for for very different reasons than maybe the\n\nSpeaker 2: the dGen. Yeah. Yeah.\n\nSpeaker 0: One of the, you know, we've been hosting these, like, tradition of foundation and nonprofit dinners, for, like, four years now or so. And, you know, what I always kind of the way I always introduce it is, like, back\n\nSpeaker 2: in the day, in the early days of Web\n\nSpeaker 0: one, the legendary Brewster Kahle, founder of the Internet Archive and many other projects, you know, brought together people from the EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, from the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, from, W3C, you know, which, like, operates the standards for HTML, like, that was founded by Tim Berners Lee. These were, like, the founders, the original founders of the Internet. And Brewster brought these people together for, you know, on a regular basis, like, for a chill, no chill, you know, series of dinners to figure out, like, how do we make sure that the Internet itself is something that is gonna benefit everybody rather than something that, you know, just a bunch of companies are looking at figuring out how do I extract the maximum amount of value. Right? Right.\n\nI think that's the hope of these dinners and these communities and these events that we try to hold is that try to hold space for, you know, all the people in Web3 that are really, like, thinking, like, who are committed to this idea that this is something that can be actually for the social benefit, that can be for the public good.\n\nSpeaker 1: The Internet doesn't have to be shitty.\n\nSpeaker 0: And We don't need to take the Internet down this path of of intitification. Yeah. It is it is a choice we can make.\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. And that's, I mean, that's something that I say often on my podcast, in my in my mid role whenever I'm trying to sell people to donate to my Patreon. You know, it very it doesn't have to be used, as crypto doesn't have to use for furthering for entrenching further capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it. So, like, if we try, like, to to put you know, to recognize the power that we have, you know, collectively with us together, like, we can change the direction and not simply let, you know, insert billionaire tech guy here to control, you know, half of it or whatever.\n\nI think that I mean, my feeling is that this is going to become, like, ever increasingly more importance in probably the short term, probably now, potentially with even this new administration coming, in The US. You know, because, you know, all all respect to the already existing, like, standards bodies, I think they, you know, they're doing the best that they can. I think there has there's clearly been, however, like, intratification has happened. Yeah. And there is something to to to acknowledge.\n\nAnd I think, at least, the the person's work that I go to when I think about this is, like, Nathan Schneider, thinking about, like, the ownership and governance of these platforms is actually incredibly important and not just the underlying, like, rails of the movement of of rails of the movement of of of data. While that is important, you know, one thing that maybe has been kind of a a blind spot for a lot of these bodies has been the governance of these of these platforms and how do we govern them better and simply allowing rather them to be these kind of, like, play toys of of of, yeah, very wealthy people in Silicon Valley.\n\nSpeaker 0: So I was just having a it's like a long email thread involving some people, including Nathan Snyder. And maybe the best way I can introduce this subject with this kind of conversation is something about one of my mentors, Lawrence Lessig, used to say is that, you know, America and he's folks in America, but I think something we can say about many parts of the world, and many industries, is kind of, like, stuck on this wheel of market power. Yeah. It's just Yeah. You know, we build monopolies.\n\nWe gain make money to further make more money, which ultimately kind of sucks the air out of many of the other kinds of institutions that we care about. Institutions like democracy, let's say, or institutions like, I don't know, public health. Like, there's this, way in which the market which is, like, within I think we can agree that, you're the blockchain socialist, not the blockchain communist. That in many ways, like, market dynamics, market forces are a powerful and important component of many societies. Right?\n\nTo have that kind of decentralized decision making infrastructure, or information processing in the Hayek sense. But, like, there's a way in which these things can, like, go out of control. Right? And they start to sabotage and undermine the very institutions that make markets function. Right?\n\nInstitutions of the state, of rule of law. And that's the kind of path, this wheel that we sort of like we can't seem to stop. And I don't know. Like when I think about these kind of questions I'm like you know many would a lot of times I'm just at a loss. It's just such a huge problem.\n\nLike how do you stop this like giant force of, billions of people and trillions of dollars, like, moving in inexorably toward this direction?\n\nSpeaker 2: And I feel like, you know,\n\nSpeaker 0: governance is part of the answer. But I maybe, help us, you know, maybe help us, you know, start to peel back direction? How do we, like, build the tools and start, you know, initializing these movements? At least that's the, you know, the thought process that we had when we were starting Medigiv, that it was not enough to be just advocating for, like, policy changes within traditional governments and traditional power structures. Right.\n\nWe needed to be, in some sense, starting our own projects, starting, like, fresh companies that were organized better, more democratically, or at least in a way that, you know, you could see at the end of the at the end of the tunnel that this was gonna be better for society. Mhmm. That this was actually gonna make a difference for humanity rather than just for, like, this set of, like, you know, stockholders and their bottom line.\n\nSpeaker 1: Right. Yeah. I mean, definitely, wholeheartedly wholeheartedly agree that, we're at a point where the market has kind of, like, overtaken rule of law, and if you wanna say it like that, or just, like, has destroyed, or has, like, chipped away at these kind of, like, civil institutions that we once, like, took for granted, I think, to now they're just, like, completely taken over, much of the economy to the detriment, I think, of larger society. And this is particularly true in the just, like, digital age where things move so quickly and can move so quickly. And I've my my hunch is that with AI, this is simply getting worse.\n\nAI is being, you know, potential paperclip machines, you know, things that optimize for a particular thing. And then, yeah. Having having AI agents that can autonomously do whatever we whatever they can do, over the Internet through digital systems, which are so fundamental to so many of our our, like, institutions today that it can wreak quite a bit of havoc. There is we were talking earlier today, and I I am I'm curious to go into it a little bit. I really hated this thing that that Peter Thiel said, and I've mentioned it before.\n\nBut, I think if I were to I want to, like, go into the thing that I think is actually if I go to deeper into it, but, you know, to get people's attention, you know, he said, he said, crypto is libertarian and AI is communist, which I think is, very ridiculous and completely, and but he's of course, he said it to be, like, edgy to be tongue in cheek or whatever. But I think kind of the thing that it gets at I think for me, it's actually, maybe even I mean, I would I would argue perhaps you you could argue even the opposite, but, AI represents to me this potential for just, like, unfettered positive feedback loops for the accumulation of capital, more so than even that we have today, which can probably exacerbate a lot of inequalities. But blockchains or crypto, however you want to call it, it to me, it represents governance, actually. And that as a space for, like, being able to, invite others to take part in decision making in ways that our institutions are wholly unequipped to to do so. Mhmm.\n\nAnd while I think there is still this maybe a little bit of, like, a technocratic bend in the crypto space that maybe needs to we need to get over, it does, like, I I I I can see, like, very much just seeing the things that are being built that we can offer an alternative, to people, so that we can add some, you know, add some pumps to pump the brake a little bit on perhaps, like, unfettered AIs everywhere, trading meme coins and, like, extracting value, whatever they can. You know?\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. No. Absolutely. Maybe, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna maybe put this in a slightly weird way. But so I began my career actually, in robotics.\n\nAnd my PhD, at least in the beginning, was actually about, was actually in AI. It was in theoretical machine learning. It was, like, pro making proving theorems about, like, the behaviors of certain kinds of algorithms, learning algorithms, trying to find structure in these kinds of questions. And I ended up leaving AI for, let's say, you know, let's say a certain kind of social science, DAOs, collective intelligence. Lots of reasons, which are very complicated for for that.\n\nBut the, when I think about, like, these disciplines and how they relate, you know, I think of blockchains and DAOs as very much a question, like, you know, we're looking at how humans interact with each other. We're studying collective intelligence of, like, many, many people kind of, like, interacting to generate whether it's a market or a company or a DAO or a blockchain. There's some sort of collective exercise and collective experience. You know, there's, like, this, you know, this community that's created out of out of our joint imaginations. But AI is, along with all the other things that it is and absolutely is, I think, concentrating power in our society, as a field where it's also like, you know, it's a very deep, it is a record of over eighty years and more, I suppose, of people, especially a set of, like, let's say, like, applied mathematicians, trying to figure out how to interact with the world.\n\nRight? There's this record within, sort of, the history of AI going from, you know, there's, good old fashioned symbolic logical methods to sort of early kinds of robotics to now the sort of modern era of, you know, these giant net deep nets that really come down to different ways of interacting with the world, right? These different ways of imagining this is how I'm gonna be in the world. This is what it means to experience and to learn. I think there's a lot of things that we could learn that we when I say we I mean like people in blockchain in DAOs who are thinking about like how do we design new kinds of institutions that we can learn from the practice of AI over the past eighty years that I think if we could learn correctly, could fundamentally change and supercharge, the way we build institutions today.\n\nThat we, in fact, the way maybe we build companies, that we build democracies. I don't think we know what those answers are yet, but I I I truly believe they are there.\n\nSpeaker 1: I mean, what what do you think you're saying there are things that we can learn from the history of AI. Do you have any any specific points you wanna do you think better then?\n\nSpeaker 0: So, like, a lot of okay. So some of these are, like, direct analogies. You can sort of say, oh, there are, you know, different kinds of multi agent architectures or kind of like, ensemble methods within machine learning that are variations and perhaps more sophistic more sophisticated kinds of voting methods. Right? And you can sort of, like, take these analogies and map them into, the way we design institutions in DAOs.\n\nAnother is just sort of like, oh, look at, you know, these kind of, like, generative adversarial networks. Right? Where, like, there's, like, you know, two agents playing kind of zero game, like, a zero sum game against each other. But in a way, that's designed to produce something that's better than either could achieve. Right?\n\nBecause they're competing against one another. Or variations of self play, like, you know, when we, like, train chess, agents or StarCraft agents nowadays, we have them play against themselves. These kinds of designs, these kinds of like sort of like differentiable architectures, can be applied and, you know, we can sort of use them to reason about and think about, like, how do we design multiple institutions? Like, within DAOs today, you know, we there's just, like, you know, there's this meme of, like, this mycelium, this kind of ecological organic, like, cellular network, like, different organelles of a DAO interacting with each other. Right?\n\nThere is, like, parts of AI are thinking about how to, like, map that, how to construct it so we can better understand it and, like, tune in a way so it's actually producing, like, optimum social good rather than just, like, all these things competing against each other and going, like, crazy. Right? So these are tools that we can start applying from day one. I think there's a deeper set of things you can unlock if you really understand, like, how AI has been built from a methodological perspective. This is like a larger set of conversations that I think I like to sort of call like a CERN for collective intelligence or CERN for, like, the social and behavioral sciences.\n\nThat has to do with understanding, like, why the hell has AI, like, moved so fast and made such progress, in the past twenty, thirty years? And how can we start replicating that in the social and behavioral sciences? Like, in how we design institutions?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think the the advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit. You can just kind of, like I think it's a bit easier to progress in certain ways in certain respects. But, indeed, I think there is there is probably a lot to say for, like, what are the types of social institutions that, you know, autonomous AI agents end up making themselves amongst each other. If we just, like, let them go a little bit and see if, like, what kind of learnings are there.\n\nI would love to I mean, someone must be doing the experiment already who is, you know, the, is just making a DAO of autonomous agents and see what happens.\n\nSpeaker 0: I I don't think, we've gone yet to DAO of autonomous agents.\n\nSpeaker 1: Soon. Soon. Soon. You heard it here\n\nSpeaker 0: first. Actually oh, man. I actually registered, like, the dye.xyz, to do actually this, like, the decentralized AI\n\nSpeaker 2: Oh, okay.\n\nSpeaker 0: But also playing on the DAO. This is, like, a thing that I think Ori, one of the sort of founders of the org, and I were kinda brainstorming on during the first Zuzalu, actually.\n\nSpeaker 2: Uh-huh.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ultimately, it didn't happen, but it definitely would be such a fun experiment to run. The, but there's there's a lot of this happening outside the blockchain space. I think, like, I was just talking to a professor at UW. His name first name is Max. His last name, I cannot remember right now.\n\nBut, he, wrote a paper on, basically, governance simulations with LOMs. There's a kind of wide range of these kinds of research that are coming out where I have, like, just a bunch of AI agents that are interacting with each other with some within some controlled environment, and we're just kind of, like, playing it off and see what can happen see what happens. I still believe though, like, at the end of the day, these are all as fun and sophisticated as they can sometimes be. They are all just toy models, and there is no replacing the actual real world. At the end of the day, if you want to make progress in these things, you need to be able to run experiments with real people.\n\nI think that's the difference between a DAO and some of these, like, AI test beds.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I've just been thinking about too much too much about AI lately. Just it it's been kind of like a a theme throughout my time in Thailand a little bit with something coming up with, like, the I don't know if I should mention, like like, the all the meme coin AI agent stuff is just it's mind blowing and, horrifying at the same time.\n\nSo, just just a warning in case you you look it up what it is, be careful with what pictures you look at. But, yes. I mean, we were also talking earlier. I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on, like, what you think DAOs ought to be in some way. So, like, I was I listened to a talk a couple days ago from Left Terrace where he said a DAO is not a company, which I completely agree with.\n\nA DAO is not a company. It should be it's something else or it should be something else if we want it if you want DAOs to provide some sort of alternative. If a DAO is a company, then we're just recreating the same thing, except now, you know, may at least partially untethered to, you know, state regulation, which maybe that's what you want. That's not I mean, at least I can say that's not what I want.\n\nSpeaker 0: So I think there are two different perspectives on what a DAO is. Mhmm. And I I will make a statement and say, like, what my perspective is, but I just wanna kinda, like, highlight. There's the movement perspective on what a DAO is. It's so important to understand, like, that this is, like, core to the people who actually build DAOs in many ways.\n\nThat, you know, DAOs need to be decentralized. That they're about offering something that is new to this economy than just traditional corporations. That, you know, DAOs are kinda like digital versions of co ops. Right? Like, exploring how we can make cooperative structures, union based structures, you know, communal structures more viable and more competitive, and using technology to do that.\n\nSo, like, this is founders of a mutualist society and an incredible person. So there's the movement notion of a DAO. But then there's also the money. Right? And I think let's we have to be honest with ourselves as an ecosystem.\n\nLike, the reason so many people pay attention to this space is because there are billion dollar DAOs that are floating around out there that are making a lot of money and generating, I think a lot of, let's say, surplus that is then going back into both the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about. Right? But the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about. Right? But, like, there are these, like, red hot engines, economic engines, which are generating and spinning out wealth.\n\nAnd the fact that, you know, these things, these, like, DeFi, these large DeFi DAOs, which, you know, oftentimes can and look like very corporate, right, just, like, slightly, like, if you, like, just, like, fuzz your eyes a little bit, like, the Duke start to look a little bit like corporations. I think many ways they're they're really not. Mhmm. I think these are both, like, legit and real perspectives that, like, a lot of people hold in this space. And, like, when I sort of look at this, when I'm, Iim, like, putting my hat, like, my DAO star hat on, like, I need to say yes to both parties.\n\nRight? I need to be a representative of the entire DAO space, both the movement and the money. Right? Money. Right?\n\nOkay. So let me take off my institutional hat and just, like, put on my Josh hat and, like, say, like, what what I what do I think about DAOs? Or what do I where do I want them to\n\nSpeaker 1: go? Let\n\nSpeaker 0: out. For me I am here and in some sense I'm here like in MediGov because I want to see because I think I am have a much better chance of seeing and discovering truly new forms of organization that have not been seen before, in these spaces than anywhere else. Like, discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source. Right? That was a fundamentally new way of, you know, producing useful stuff in the world that anybody like, nobody had seen before.\n\nThat was only possible because of the Internet, because of the nature of software. And I wanna see more stuff like that, more innovation, more knowledge. And sometimes I think this innovation can look like figure out like, solving deeply unsexy problems around, like, how do we coordinate or manage rights and sort of HR kinds of things that I think DAOs could be really good at. Right? So DAOs, in this sense, could be, like, much much better corporations.\n\nRight? More compliant, more transparent, better governed, more productive. It could also look like, wow, these are like this is like changing the the possibilities of governance, so that we can have more competitive, bigger scale, cooperative kind of structures that are, like, giving back to the communities that they serve. That it's, you know, in MedecoF, we like to say, like, you know, making democracy at least as available as autocracy. The idea would be that autocracy is, like, pretty easy to implement in tech.\n\nDemocracy is hard. Yeah. But part of the idea of doing research is not that we prefer one the other. Like, sometimes you you need, like, one person calling the shots in a small in a small company, for example. Right?\n\nBut it's, like, at least making it possible to sort of say, like, you know, here here's an alternative. Let let's see if it could be right or let's lower the cost of implementing this alternative.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. No. I think I think that's the still the main for me, the the thing that still excites me even when I'm, like, annoyed with the crypto space is that, like, blockchains and crypto are a technology for, like, building institutions or for building, at the very least, the scaffolding of institutions to come. And we're at I think we are at or close to an a we can do something different. And I think, the do something different side of this argument is much more compelling for just a a vast array of people.\n\nI think the the people who simply want more efficient companies are, you know, they they do have, like, potentially the money on their side, but I don't think that they have, like, public opinion on their side. And so I think we have this opportunity to offer, like, a just a a way to very differently relate to, civic organizations, organizations through the Internet in a way that we simply either haven't been able to yet or simply have not had the the, the moment in which to transition into something that is more democratic. So, yeah, so I think this this is this is, like, a lot of what Nathan Schneider talks about in his book, Governable Spaces, which I really enjoyed, and I spoke to him about it previously on the podcast, that, yeah, the Internet, in some ways has been democratizing on some centralizing force for, for other things as well. So, yeah, we have now the technology to do it, and we need to out collaborate the the the weirdo corporatists in order to, make something different.\n\nSpeaker 0: We need to build.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. We gotta build. So, yeah. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing all your work. And now if you want to share, leave a plug for people.\n\nIs there anything people should check out, you think, or, website or things they should follow?\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. So, both Medigov and DAOSTAR are very open communities. Just go to medigov.org, daostar.org. You'll find ways to join our respective online communities and start getting plugged in and actually contribute to some standards.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Let's do it. Come come and help me, evangelize the grant standard. DAO IP five.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yes. Let's do it.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yes. Right.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. Thanks so much.\n\nSpeaker 1: Appreciate\n\nSpeaker 0: it. Thanks so much.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Imagine think of, like, a BBC for AI or a PBS for AI.", "start": 0.88, "end": 4.58 }, { "text": "Instead of the world where power in this industry is concentrated within maybe two or three companies in Silicon Valley.", "start": 4.7999997, "end": 13.304999 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 13.304999, "end": 13.625 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 13.625, "end": 14.125 }, { "text": "What Web3 is giving us because of the data infrastructure that we kind of just get for free that would take potentially, you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars in investment to get us to.", "start": 14.424999, "end": 24.985 } ], "start": 0.88, "end": 24.985, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One way way of describing what MetaGov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers and hackers held together by a Slack and some vibes.", "start": 24.985, "end": 34.73 } ], "start": 24.985, "end": 34.73, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The Internet doesn't have to be shitty.", "start": 34.95, "end": 36.89 } ], "start": 34.95, "end": 36.89, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It is.", "start": 38.14, "end": 38.71 }, { "text": "We don't need to take the Internet down this path of intitification.", "start": 38.71, "end": 42.165 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 42.945, "end": 43.265003 }, { "text": "It is it is a choice we can make.", "start": 43.265003, "end": 45.205 } ], "start": 38.14, "end": 45.205, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit.", "start": 45.505, "end": 51.745003 }, { "text": "You can just progress in certain ways.", "start": 51.745003, "end": 53.57 }, { "text": "It's mind blowing and, horrifying", "start": 53.57, "end": 55.91 } ], "start": 45.505, "end": 55.91, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "at the", "start": 56.21, "end": 56.37 } ], "start": 56.21, "end": 56.37, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "same time.", "start": 56.37, "end": 57.109997 } ], "start": 56.37, "end": 57.109997, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source.", "start": 58.129997, "end": 61.089996 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 61.089996, "end": 61.329998 }, { "text": "That was a fundamentally new way of producing useful stuff in the world that nobody had seen before.", "start": 61.329998, "end": 68.39 } ], "start": 58.129997, "end": 68.39, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hey, guys.", "start": 68.815, "end": 69.375 }, { "text": "What you're about to watch is one of the many interviews I took during my time in Thailand for DevCon twenty twenty four.", "start": 69.375, "end": 75.315 }, { "text": "I was in the country for a total of over a month and got the opportunity to meet a bunch of really cool people and interview them in person.", "start": 75.455, "end": 82.435 }, { "text": "DevCon itself was an incredible and interesting experience and you can find my full review of it on my Patreon.", "start": 82.99, "end": 88.28999 }, { "text": "So if you like the content I've been making and would like me to continue going to these kinds of events and improving, then I hope you'll become a patron starting at just $3 per month for access to loads of bonus content and Blockchain Socialist merch at patreon.com/theblockchainsocialist.", "start": 88.67, "end": 105.465004 } ], "start": 68.815, "end": 105.465004, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hi, everyone.", "start": 107.285, "end": 108.105 }, { "text": "You're listening to another episode of, the blockchain socialist with much higher production value than I'm ever gonna get in my life here at Defcon twenty twenty four in Bangkok.", "start": 108.245, "end": 119.14 }, { "text": "I I am Josh, and I am here with my interviewee, Josh.", "start": 120.56, "end": 125.7 }, { "text": "Josh Tan, this is the takeover of the Josh's on this episode.", "start": 126.72, "end": 129.91501 }, { "text": "Josh, you're the founder of Medigov, which is also the sponsor of my hat.", "start": 130.695, "end": 135.515 } ], "start": 107.285, "end": 135.515, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And as well, you know, just to to be, to be transparent and honest, kind of my boss at DAOSTAR, if that counts.", "start": 137.41501, "end": 145.91 } ], "start": 137.41501, "end": 145.91, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Very flat hierarchy.", "start": 145.91, "end": 147.05 } ], "start": 145.91, "end": 147.05, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "My, my my co collaborator at DAOSTAR where I work, part time as well as the grand standard lead.", "start": 149.03, "end": 155.98999 }, { "text": "Maybe we can talk about that in a little bit just to take advantage of this amazing set.", "start": 155.98999, "end": 159.645 }, { "text": "I can talk about that work.", "start": 159.645, "end": 160.945 }, { "text": "But to start off, maybe we can just, yeah, talk a bit about, I mean, one, I think your story is, like, really fascinating because you do too many things, and I don't know how you do it.", "start": 161.88501, "end": 171.76 }, { "text": "And so maybe I think if you can give, like, a high level introduction of all these things and, like, what Medigov is, and then we can go from there into very spicy takes about AI and blockchains.", "start": 172.62, "end": 184.11499 } ], "start": 149.03, "end": 184.11499, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sweet.", "start": 184.895, "end": 185.295 }, { "text": "Let's do it.", "start": 185.295, "end": 186.19499 }, { "text": "Well, first off, thanks for having me.", "start": 186.735, "end": 188.435 }, { "text": "So my story, I guess, or why the hell I do do what I do.", "start": 190.175, "end": 196.15999 }, { "text": "Honestly, I asked", "start": 197.26, "end": 199.9 } ], "start": 184.895, "end": 199.9, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "you to list off you can just, like, list off list off the things high level.", "start": 199.9, "end": 203.2 } ], "start": 199.9, "end": 203.2, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sure.", "start": 203.26, "end": 203.65999 }, { "text": "Yep.", "start": 203.65999, "end": 204.14 }, { "text": "So, obviously, one of the things I work on is Medigov.", "start": 204.14, "end": 206.85999 }, { "text": "So Medigov is a nonprofit research lab that specializes in digital governance, and I should say especially in digital self governance.", "start": 206.85999, "end": 217.44499 }, { "text": "It's like how do online communities govern themselves.", "start": 217.505, "end": 220.965 } ], "start": 203.26, "end": 220.965, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And as part of this, we do do a lot of different research across a lot of different spaces.", "start": 221.825, "end": 227.1 }, { "text": "So we do we're funded, for example, by the Ford Foundation, Sloan Foundation to do research on sort of how we can model and, sort of, calculate the costs of transitioning from, let's say, a closed source product into an open source product or from a BDFL, like a one person running an open source repo to many people running a repo.", "start": 227.1, "end": 250.39 }, { "text": "Like, it's like, what is the cost and the risk of going from point a to point b?", "start": 250.39, "end": 254.17 }, { "text": "We do a lot of work within, AI.", "start": 254.79001, "end": 257.37 }, { "text": "So we, and I guess I in particular help lead one of our projects called public AI, or AI is public infrastructure.", "start": 257.43, "end": 265.325 } ], "start": 221.825, "end": 265.325, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And the idea of public AI is that, you know, maybe AI should be offered kind of like, you know, we offer or support public goods like public libraries or public highways or public parks.", "start": 265.625, "end": 279.245 }, { "text": "Imagine Think of, like, a BBC for AI or a PBS for AI.", "start": 279.785, "end": 283.62997 }, { "text": "Instead of the world that we seem to be as we're trending toward right now, where power in this industry is concentrated within maybe two or three companies in Silicon Valley.", "start": 283.62997, "end": 291.6009 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 291.6009, "end": 291.6227 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 291.6227, "end": 291.64453 } ], "start": 265.625, "end": 291.64453, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And of course, I'm companies in Silicon Valley.", "start": 291.66635, "end": 294.525 } ], "start": 291.66635, "end": 294.525, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 294.525, "end": 294.925 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 294.925, "end": 295.425 } ], "start": 294.525, "end": 295.425, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And of course, I do, I and Medigov, we do a lot of work in DAOs and blockchains.", "start": 296.125, "end": 303.10498 }, { "text": "By some measures, we probably do the most research on DAOs of any organization in the world, inclusive of any university.", "start": 303.16498, "end": 309.21 }, { "text": "And part of that involves running DAOSTAR, which is the standards body for DAOs.", "start": 310.15, "end": 315.21 } ], "start": 296.125, "end": 315.21, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 315.99, "end": 316.31 }, { "text": "Which DAOSTAR is the product that I'm also, working part time at, as the grand standard lead.", "start": 316.31, "end": 323.845 }, { "text": "I guess, DAOSTAR if I can if I can describe DAOSTAR, I just think of it as a body for creating, standards for DAOs, largely technical standards.", "start": 323.845, "end": 333.22498 }, { "text": "But I think maybe, you know, there is there is, room to think about other types of standards maybe besides technical ones I think would be interesting at some point.", "start": 333.365, "end": 342.0 }, { "text": "But, yeah, I think the, the kind of, like, big thing that is coming up with DAO star is the grand standard, which I'm leading, in which we have a standard to, I like I think in in short, just, like, improve the transparency and interoperability of the Web three grants ecosystem, making grants data public public information so that we would be able to actually, do the analysis of what's going on in these Web three grants programs, where that money is coming from, where that money is going, and build the foundations for more robust types of, maybe, like, governance systems around grants, reputation systems, hopefully, not in a dystopian way.", "start": 343.02, "end": 383.095 } ], "start": 315.99, "end": 383.095, "num_words": 188.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's", "start": 384.16833, "end": 384.22165 } ], "start": 384.16833, "end": 384.22165, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Common applications?", "start": 384.275, "end": 385.015 } ], "start": 384.275, "end": 385.015, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A common application is is another big one.", "start": 385.23502, "end": 386.995 }, { "text": "So imagine writing one application for a 100 grants", "start": 386.995, "end": 392.41 } ], "start": 385.23502, "end": 392.41, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "or whatever else,", "start": 392.71, "end": 392.94998 } ], "start": 392.71, "end": 392.94998, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "and just, like, massively reducing the amount of time you have to spend on grants, which, yeah, I think is important in part because, I do think that, like, there is you know, we the in order for, a side of the crypto space or web three, whatever you wanna call it space, to have a space that is different than the VC backed side of crypto, then we do need to compete to some extent of, like, allowing people to receive grants in, like, a way that is not so cumbersome that people just say, you know, fuck it.", "start": 393.19, "end": 426.03 }, { "text": "I'm gonna get venture capital.", "start": 426.03, "end": 427.81 } ], "start": 393.19, "end": 427.81, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yes.", "start": 428.03, "end": 428.53 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 430.50998, "end": 430.75 }, { "text": "There are a lot of reasons I think we absolutely need this grant center.", "start": 430.75, "end": 434.99 }, { "text": "And, honestly, you more than anyone, I think I've seen the response we've gotten from this ecosystem where it's like everybody we talk to, whether it's, like, one of the cofounders of Optimism or Awakie from Gitcoin or Stellar or Octant or like, everybody agrees.", "start": 434.99, "end": 450.445 }, { "text": "Like, everybody agrees.", "start": 450.745, "end": 451.59 } ], "start": 428.03, "end": 451.59, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, this is so necessary.", "start": 451.59, "end": 452.94998 }, { "text": "And it's kinda, like, obviously necessary.", "start": 452.94998, "end": 455.44998 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 455.59, "end": 455.75 }, { "text": "Like, like, it would be amazing if we had this.", "start": 455.75, "end": 459.28998 }, { "text": "And now, hopefully, we're getting closer.", "start": 459.99, "end": 463.53 } ], "start": 451.59, "end": 463.53, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 463.83, "end": 464.33 }, { "text": "I think maybe, like, another way of maybe, like, putting into into, like, understanding the scale of this, like, what we could actually accomplish.", "start": 465.03, "end": 473.765 }, { "text": "This is something that, traditional foundations have been trying to do for, like, sixty odd years.", "start": 474.065, "end": 481.71 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 481.71, "end": 482.11 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 482.11, "end": 482.43 } ], "start": 463.83, "end": 482.43, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like every ten years or so, you know, the Rockefeller Foundation or, like, Sloan Foundation or one of these, like, big, you know, well founded foundation says, like, oh, we should do something like this.", "start": 482.43, "end": 492.685 }, { "text": "We should have, like, a common application across our organizations.", "start": 492.685, "end": 495.98502 }, { "text": "And they say, like, let's do it.", "start": 496.045, "end": 499.005 }, { "text": "And then they do it.", "start": 499.005, "end": 500.685 }, { "text": "It fails invariably.", "start": 500.685, "end": 502.065 } ], "start": 482.43, "end": 502.065, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then, like, twenty years later, they forget the failure, and they try", "start": 502.93997, "end": 505.81998 } ], "start": 502.93997, "end": 505.81998, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "it again.", "start": 505.81998, "end": 506.4 } ], "start": 505.81998, "end": 506.4, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think we're actually have a much better shot at getting something that's truly scalable.", "start": 506.93997, "end": 512.86 }, { "text": "I'm realizing this interoperable vision for grants because, I think, because of what Web three is giving us, because of the data infrastructure that we kinda just get for free that would take potentially, you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars of investment to get us to.", "start": 512.86, "end": 529.835 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 529.895, "end": 530.215 }, { "text": "But,", "start": 530.215, "end": 530.715 } ], "start": 506.93997, "end": 530.715, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "yeah, I", "start": 531.23, "end": 531.38995 } ], "start": 531.23, "end": 531.38995, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "think there is there is something at least for the the best sides of crypto.", "start": 531.38995, "end": 534.91 }, { "text": "I think there's, you know, there there is, like, a a desire largely within the space for coordination between each other that doesn't really exist in most traditional, industries or or spaces, however you want to call it.", "start": 534.91, "end": 551.16504 }, { "text": "So I think there is there is something to take advantage of, at least now, while the while the feeling for collaboration is still hot to do that.", "start": 551.625, "end": 556.42505 }, { "text": "But, but so, yeah, I think standards for DAOs, very important because of all these things we just mentioned.", "start": 556.585, "end": 568.24 }, { "text": "But I really wanna talk about I wanna take, like, a a step back on, like, broadly this idea around, the need for collaboration in the in the crypto space.", "start": 568.62, "end": 579.065 } ], "start": 531.38995, "end": 579.065, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "If you have any thoughts on it, at least, I guess, the Medigob does a lot of things around online governance, but I imagine that in part comes from a place of, like, feeling that, we do need to coalesce around certain standards and certain, like, maybe shared within, the Internet space in a similar way that, like, is what I'm now forgetting the names, of course, the other standard bodies of the Internet have done before us.", "start": 579.065, "end": 608.885 }, { "text": "So I think, like,", "start": 610.46497, "end": 611.365 } ], "start": 579.065, "end": 611.365, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "standards are definitely a big play within MediCove.", "start": 613.825, "end": 615.91003 }, { "text": "We run not one, but two standards bodies, actually.", "start": 616.69, "end": 620.31 }, { "text": "One of the other ones is called Comtech.", "start": 620.85, "end": 622.79 }, { "text": "So there's a project within MediCove called the Comtech Foundation, which publishes standards for, you know, tech that is actually respectful of your attention.", "start": 623.25, "end": 631.305 }, { "text": "And more broadly, Medigov is, like, kinda what draws people to Medigov as a okay.", "start": 632.165, "end": 638.825 } ], "start": 613.825, "end": 638.825, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One way of describing what Medigov actually is is it's really just a bunch of researchers", "start": 638.885, "end": 643.71 } ], "start": 638.885, "end": 643.71, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 643.89, "end": 644.21 } ], "start": 643.89, "end": 644.21, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And hackers, held together by a Slack and some vibes.", "start": 644.29004, "end": 650.47003 }, { "text": "Like, it really is, like, deeply informal in a way.", "start": 650.61005, "end": 653.09 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 653.09, "end": 653.33 }, { "text": "And people kinda hang out because, you know, it's like it's it's a community of people who, like, a community of people who, like, really love building communities, especially kinds of online communities.", "start": 653.33, "end": 662.545 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 662.685, "end": 663.185 } ], "start": 644.29004, "end": 663.185, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And standards are very much, like, part of that play.", "start": 663.485, "end": 666.125 }, { "text": "Like, what do you need to get a standard?", "start": 666.125, "end": 667.725 }, { "text": "You're effectively building, like, a coalition of the willing.", "start": 667.725, "end": 671.725 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 671.725, "end": 672.225 }, { "text": "Of people who might be competing with each other in normal circumstances, but have said, like, you know, we care about some common objective, some shared goal enough to say that, you know, we're gonna get together and, like, put our energy into writing this piece of of paper that I don't own and I'm giving to my competitor.", "start": 672.285, "end": 691.605 } ], "start": 663.485, "end": 691.605, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's, like, for free.", "start": 691.745, "end": 693.20496 }, { "text": "It it's it's you know, you need some sort of, like, coalescing to to make that happen.", "start": 693.90497, "end": 699.52496 }, { "text": "You need that community.", "start": 699.745, "end": 700.56 } ], "start": 691.745, "end": 700.56, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It is I think Medigiv has been able to attract a lot of very smart people, a lot of, like, academics.", "start": 708.96, "end": 715.06 }, { "text": "I think I realized the other day that I've, like, interviewed, like, at least more than half of the board of Medica, which has been very funny.", "start": 715.2, "end": 724.185 }, { "text": "Not my intention at all.", "start": 724.185, "end": 725.065 }, { "text": "I didn't realize.", "start": 725.065, "end": 725.705 }, { "text": "Only after when I looked at the board, I was like, oh, they've all been on at some point.", "start": 725.705, "end": 731.1633 } ], "start": 708.96, "end": 731.1633, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 731.37665, "end": 731.58997 }, { "text": "It's it's attracted a lot of people.", "start": 731.58997, "end": 732.79 }, { "text": "A lot of researchers, definitely our our get togethers are more, academic and more chill than, like, if you go to a DeFi party, in Thailand or something like that.", "start": 732.79, "end": 747.6057 }, { "text": "Definitely a different vibe.", "start": 747.921, "end": 749.1822 }, { "text": "A little", "start": 749.1822, "end": 749.8128 } ], "start": 731.37665, "end": 749.8128, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "different now.", "start": 749.8128, "end": 750.4434 } ], "start": 749.8128, "end": 750.4434, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A lot of people who are there for for very different reasons than maybe the", "start": 750.4434, "end": 755.1729 } ], "start": 750.4434, "end": 755.1729, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "the dGen.", "start": 755.1729, "end": 755.8035 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 755.8035, "end": 756.1188 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 756.1188, "end": 756.4341 } ], "start": 755.1729, "end": 756.4341, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One of the, you know, we've been hosting these, like, tradition of foundation and nonprofit dinners, for, like, four years now or so.", "start": 756.4341, "end": 765.96 }, { "text": "And, you know, what I always kind of the way I always introduce it is, like, back", "start": 766.98, "end": 772.575 } ], "start": 756.4341, "end": 772.575, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "in the day, in the early days of Web", "start": 774.575, "end": 775.367 } ], "start": 774.575, "end": 775.367, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "one, the legendary Brewster Kahle, founder of the Internet Archive and many other projects, you know, brought together people from the EFF, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, from the IETF, the Internet Engineering Task Force, from, W3C, you know, which, like, operates the standards for HTML, like, that was founded by Tim Berners Lee.", "start": 775.367, "end": 796.13 }, { "text": "These were, like, the founders, the original founders of the Internet.", "start": 796.99, "end": 800.035 }, { "text": "And Brewster brought these people together for, you know, on a regular basis, like, for a chill, no chill, you know, series of dinners to figure out, like, how do we make sure that the Internet itself is something that is gonna benefit everybody rather than something that, you know, just a bunch of companies are looking at figuring out how do I extract the maximum amount of value.", "start": 800.735, "end": 824.02 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 824.24, "end": 824.64 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 824.64, "end": 825.14 } ], "start": 775.367, "end": 825.14, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that's the hope of these dinners and these communities and these events that we try to hold is that try to hold space for, you know, all the people in Web3 that are really, like, thinking, like, who are committed to this idea that this is something that can be actually for the social benefit, that can be for the public good.", "start": 825.2, "end": 846.14 } ], "start": 825.2, "end": 846.14, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The Internet doesn't have to be shitty.", "start": 846.2, "end": 848.06 } ], "start": 846.2, "end": 848.06, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And We don't need to take the Internet down this path of of intitification.", "start": 849.56, "end": 853.82 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 854.6, "end": 855.0 }, { "text": "It is it is a choice we can make.", "start": 855.0, "end": 857.115 } ], "start": 849.56, "end": 857.115, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 857.115, "end": 857.435 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 857.435, "end": 857.675 }, { "text": "And that's, I mean, that's something that I say often on my podcast, in my in my mid role whenever I'm trying to sell people to donate to my Patreon.", "start": 857.675, "end": 864.175 }, { "text": "You know, it very it doesn't have to be used, as crypto doesn't have to use for furthering for entrenching further capitalist exploitation if we put our efforts into it.", "start": 865.435, "end": 875.24 }, { "text": "So, like, if we try, like, to to put you know, to recognize the power that we have, you know, collectively with us together, like, we can change the direction and not simply let, you know, insert billionaire tech guy here to control, you know, half of it or whatever.", "start": 875.24, "end": 892.915 } ], "start": 857.115, "end": 892.915, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that I mean, my feeling is that this is going to become, like, ever increasingly more importance in probably the short term, probably now, potentially with even this new administration coming, in The US.", "start": 894.335, "end": 908.77997 }, { "text": "You know, because, you know, all all respect to the already existing, like, standards bodies, I think they, you know, they're doing the best that they can.", "start": 910.27997, "end": 919.635 }, { "text": "I think there has there's clearly been, however, like, intratification has happened.", "start": 919.635, "end": 923.955 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 923.955, "end": 924.435 }, { "text": "And there is something to to to acknowledge.", "start": 924.995, "end": 927.43005 } ], "start": 894.335, "end": 927.43005, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I think, at least, the the person's work that I go to when I think about this is, like, Nathan Schneider, thinking about, like, the ownership and governance of these platforms is actually incredibly important and not just the underlying, like, rails of the movement of of rails of the movement of of of data.", "start": 927.43005, "end": 943.065 }, { "text": "While that is important, you know, one thing that maybe has been kind of a a blind spot for a lot of these bodies has been the governance of these of these platforms and how do we govern them better and simply allowing rather them to be these kind of, like, play toys of of of, yeah, very wealthy people in Silicon Valley.", "start": 943.065, "end": 961.84 } ], "start": 927.43005, "end": 961.84, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I was just having a it's like a long email thread involving some people, including Nathan Snyder.", "start": 961.9, "end": 972.615 }, { "text": "And maybe the best way I can introduce this subject with this kind of conversation is something about one of my mentors, Lawrence Lessig, used to say is that, you know, America and he's folks in America, but I think something we can say about many parts of the world, and many industries, is kind of, like, stuck on this wheel of market power.", "start": 972.615, "end": 995.03 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 995.49, "end": 995.97003 }, { "text": "It's just Yeah.", "start": 995.97003, "end": 997.01 }, { "text": "You know, we build monopolies.", "start": 997.09, "end": 1000.835 } ], "start": 961.9, "end": 1000.835, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We gain make money to further make more money, which ultimately kind of sucks the air out of many of the other kinds of institutions that we care about.", "start": 1001.295, "end": 1011.695 }, { "text": "Institutions like democracy, let's say, or institutions like, I don't know, public health.", "start": 1011.695, "end": 1017.23 }, { "text": "Like, there's this, way in which the market which is, like, within I think we can agree that, you're the blockchain socialist, not the blockchain communist.", "start": 1017.52997, "end": 1027.815 }, { "text": "That in many ways, like, market dynamics, market forces are a powerful and important component of many societies.", "start": 1028.4349, "end": 1033.8949 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1034.0349, "end": 1034.5349 } ], "start": 1001.295, "end": 1034.5349, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To have that kind of decentralized decision making infrastructure, or information processing in the Hayek sense.", "start": 1034.755, "end": 1040.9349 }, { "text": "But, like, there's a way in which these things can, like, go out of control.", "start": 1041.315, "end": 1045.07 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1045.45, "end": 1045.85 }, { "text": "And they start to sabotage and undermine the very institutions that make markets function.", "start": 1045.85, "end": 1051.45 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1051.45, "end": 1051.95 } ], "start": 1034.755, "end": 1051.95, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Institutions of the state, of rule of law.", "start": 1052.1699, "end": 1055.07 }, { "text": "And that's the kind of path, this wheel that we sort of like we can't seem to stop.", "start": 1055.69, "end": 1059.7749 }, { "text": "And I don't know.", "start": 1062.075, "end": 1063.195 }, { "text": "Like when I think about these kind of questions I'm like you know many would a lot of times I'm just at a loss.", "start": 1063.195, "end": 1068.1549 }, { "text": "It's just such a huge problem.", "start": 1068.1549, "end": 1069.4349 } ], "start": 1052.1699, "end": 1069.4349, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like how do you stop this like giant force of, billions of people and trillions of dollars, like, moving in inexorably toward this direction?", "start": 1069.4349, "end": 1081.56 } ], "start": 1069.4349, "end": 1081.56, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I feel like, you know,", "start": 1082.42, "end": 1082.54 } ], "start": 1082.42, "end": 1082.54, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "governance is part of the answer.", "start": 1082.54, "end": 1082.66 }, { "text": "But I maybe, help us, you know, maybe help us, you know, start to peel back direction?", "start": 1082.66, "end": 1103.48 }, { "text": "How do we, like, build the tools and start, you know, initializing these movements?", "start": 1103.48, "end": 1108.2999 }, { "text": "At least that's the, you know, the thought process that we had when we were starting Medigiv, that it was not enough to be just advocating for, like, policy changes within traditional governments and traditional power structures.", "start": 1111.24, "end": 1122.885 }, { "text": "Right.", "start": 1123.505, "end": 1123.905 } ], "start": 1082.54, "end": 1123.905, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We needed to be, in some sense, starting our own projects, starting, like, fresh companies that were organized better, more democratically, or at least in a way that, you know, you could see at the end of the at the end of the tunnel that this was gonna be better for society.", "start": 1124.625, "end": 1140.56 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1141.065, "end": 1141.145 }, { "text": "That this was actually gonna make a difference for humanity rather than just for, like, this set of, like, you know, stockholders and their bottom line.", "start": 1141.3049, "end": 1150.205 } ], "start": 1124.625, "end": 1150.205, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1150.265, "end": 1150.765 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1151.465, "end": 1151.7849 }, { "text": "I mean, definitely, wholeheartedly wholeheartedly agree that, we're at a point where the market has kind of, like, overtaken rule of law, and if you wanna say it like that, or just, like, has destroyed, or has, like, chipped away at these kind of, like, civil institutions that we once, like, took for granted, I think, to now they're just, like, completely taken over, much of the economy to the detriment, I think, of larger society.", "start": 1151.7849, "end": 1184.485 }, { "text": "And this is particularly true in the just, like, digital age where things move so quickly and can move so quickly.", "start": 1185.96, "end": 1192.7001 }, { "text": "And I've my my hunch is that with AI, this is simply getting worse.", "start": 1193.48, "end": 1199.5 } ], "start": 1150.265, "end": 1199.5, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "AI is being, you know, potential paperclip machines, you know, things that optimize for a particular thing.", "start": 1200.405, "end": 1207.545 }, { "text": "And then, yeah.", "start": 1208.405, "end": 1210.425 }, { "text": "Having having AI agents that can autonomously do whatever we whatever they can do, over the Internet through digital systems, which are so fundamental to so many of our our, like, institutions today that it can wreak quite a bit of havoc.", "start": 1210.485, "end": 1227.4 }, { "text": "There is we were talking earlier today, and I I am I'm curious to go into it a little bit.", "start": 1228.3401, "end": 1233.0851 }, { "text": "I really hated this thing that that Peter Thiel said, and I've mentioned it before.", "start": 1233.405, "end": 1237.0851 } ], "start": 1200.405, "end": 1237.0851, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, I think if I were to I want to, like, go into the thing that I think is actually if I go to deeper into it, but, you know, to get people's attention, you know, he said, he said, crypto is libertarian and AI is communist, which I think is, very ridiculous and completely, and but he's of course, he said it to be, like, edgy to be tongue in cheek or whatever.", "start": 1237.0851, "end": 1262.4651 }, { "text": "But I think kind of the thing that it gets at I think for me, it's actually, maybe even I mean, I would I would argue perhaps you you could argue even the opposite, but, AI represents to me this potential for just, like, unfettered positive feedback loops for the accumulation of capital, more so than even that we have today, which can probably exacerbate a lot of inequalities.", "start": 1263.0851, "end": 1291.285 }, { "text": "But blockchains or crypto, however you want to call it, it to me, it represents governance, actually.", "start": 1292.625, "end": 1299.765 }, { "text": "And that as a space for, like, being able to, invite others to take part in decision making in ways that our institutions are wholly unequipped to to do so.", "start": 1299.985, "end": 1312.42 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1312.42, "end": 1312.7401 } ], "start": 1237.0851, "end": 1312.7401, "num_words": 191.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And while I think there is still this maybe a little bit of, like, a technocratic bend in the crypto space that maybe needs to we need to get over, it does, like, I I I I can see, like, very much just seeing the things that are being built that we can offer an alternative, to people, so that we can add some, you know, add some pumps to pump the brake a little bit on perhaps, like, unfettered AIs everywhere, trading meme coins and, like, extracting value, whatever they can.", "start": 1313.2201, "end": 1346.235 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 1346.235, "end": 1346.895 } ], "start": 1313.2201, "end": 1346.895, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1347.275, "end": 1347.595 }, { "text": "No.", "start": 1347.595, "end": 1347.835 }, { "text": "Absolutely.", "start": 1347.835, "end": 1348.335 }, { "text": "Maybe, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna maybe put this in a slightly weird way.", "start": 1350.1549, "end": 1356.97 }, { "text": "But so I began my career actually, in robotics.", "start": 1356.97, "end": 1363.3099 } ], "start": 1347.275, "end": 1363.3099, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And my PhD, at least in the beginning, was actually about, was actually in AI.", "start": 1363.93, "end": 1369.275 }, { "text": "It was in theoretical machine learning.", "start": 1369.275, "end": 1370.795 }, { "text": "It was, like, pro making proving theorems about, like, the behaviors of certain kinds of algorithms, learning algorithms, trying to find structure in these kinds of questions.", "start": 1370.795, "end": 1378.875 }, { "text": "And I ended up leaving AI for, let's say, you know, let's say a certain kind of social science, DAOs, collective intelligence.", "start": 1378.875, "end": 1391.0 }, { "text": "Lots of reasons, which are very complicated for for that.", "start": 1393.7001, "end": 1396.895 } ], "start": 1363.93, "end": 1396.895, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But the, when I think about, like, these disciplines and how they relate, you know, I think of blockchains and DAOs as very much a question, like, you know, we're looking at how humans interact with each other.", "start": 1396.895, "end": 1410.15 }, { "text": "We're studying collective intelligence of, like, many, many people kind of, like, interacting to generate whether it's a market or a company or a DAO or a blockchain.", "start": 1410.4501, "end": 1421.35 }, { "text": "There's some sort of collective exercise and collective experience.", "start": 1421.49, "end": 1424.835 }, { "text": "You know, there's, like, this, you know, this community that's created out of out of our joint imaginations.", "start": 1424.835, "end": 1429.6549 }, { "text": "But AI is, along with all the other things that it is and absolutely is, I think, concentrating power in our society, as a field where it's also like, you know, it's a very deep, it is a record of over eighty years and more, I suppose, of people, especially a set of, like, let's say, like, applied mathematicians, trying to figure out how to interact with the world.", "start": 1430.835, "end": 1459.755 } ], "start": 1396.895, "end": 1459.755, "num_words": 162.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 1459.975, "end": 1460.475 }, { "text": "There's this record within, sort of, the history of AI going from, you know, there's, good old fashioned symbolic logical methods to sort of early kinds of robotics to now the sort of modern era of, you know, these giant net deep nets that really come down to different ways of interacting with the world, right?", "start": 1460.775, "end": 1483.275 }, { "text": "These different ways of imagining this is how I'm gonna be in the world.", "start": 1483.415, "end": 1487.115 }, { "text": "This is what it means to experience and to learn.", "start": 1487.5751, "end": 1490.3151 }, { "text": "I think there's a lot of things that we could learn that we when I say we I mean like people in blockchain in DAOs who are thinking about like how do we design new kinds of institutions that we can learn from the practice of AI over the past eighty years that I think if we could learn correctly, could fundamentally change and supercharge, the way we build institutions today.", "start": 1491.0951, "end": 1516.1449 } ], "start": 1459.975, "end": 1516.1449, "num_words": 152.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That we, in fact, the way maybe we build companies, that we build democracies.", "start": 1516.1449, "end": 1520.245 }, { "text": "I don't think we know what those answers are yet, but I I I truly believe they are there.", "start": 1521.345, "end": 1526.3 } ], "start": 1516.1449, "end": 1526.3, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, what what do you think you're saying there are things that we can learn from the history of AI.", "start": 1527.16, "end": 1531.3401 }, { "text": "Do you have any any specific points you wanna do you think better then?", "start": 1531.88, "end": 1535.1001 } ], "start": 1527.16, "end": 1535.1001, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, like, a lot of okay.", "start": 1535.7201, "end": 1540.175 }, { "text": "So some of these are, like, direct analogies.", "start": 1540.175, "end": 1542.915 }, { "text": "You can sort of say, oh, there are, you know, different kinds of multi agent architectures or kind of like, ensemble methods within machine learning that are variations and perhaps more sophistic more sophisticated kinds of voting methods.", "start": 1543.055, "end": 1561.02 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1561.08, "end": 1561.58 }, { "text": "And you can sort of, like, take these analogies and map them into, the way we design institutions in DAOs.", "start": 1561.96, "end": 1569.26 } ], "start": 1535.7201, "end": 1569.26, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Another is just sort of like, oh, look at, you know, these kind of, like, generative adversarial networks.", "start": 1569.9049, "end": 1577.365 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1577.585, "end": 1577.9049 }, { "text": "Where, like, there's, like, you know, two agents playing kind of zero game, like, a zero sum game against each other.", "start": 1577.9049, "end": 1584.085 }, { "text": "But in a way, that's designed to produce something that's better than either could achieve.", "start": 1584.1449, "end": 1587.9401 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1587.9401, "end": 1588.34 } ], "start": 1569.9049, "end": 1588.34, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Because they're competing against one another.", "start": 1588.34, "end": 1590.28 }, { "text": "Or variations of self play, like, you know, when we, like, train chess, agents or StarCraft agents nowadays, we have them play against themselves.", "start": 1591.22, "end": 1598.84 }, { "text": "These kinds of designs, these kinds of like sort of like differentiable architectures, can be applied and, you know, we can sort of use them to reason about and think about, like, how do we design multiple institutions?", "start": 1599.78, "end": 1610.595 }, { "text": "Like, within DAOs today, you know, we there's just, like, you know, there's this meme of, like, this mycelium, this kind of ecological organic, like, cellular network, like, different organelles of a DAO interacting with each other.", "start": 1610.8949, "end": 1623.77 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1623.77, "end": 1624.27 } ], "start": 1588.34, "end": 1624.27, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There is, like, parts of AI are thinking about how to, like, map that, how to construct it so we can better understand it and, like, tune in a way so it's actually producing, like, optimum social good rather than just, like, all these things competing against each other and going, like, crazy.", "start": 1624.49, "end": 1638.365 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1638.365, "end": 1638.765 }, { "text": "So these are tools that we can start applying from day one.", "start": 1638.765, "end": 1641.98 }, { "text": "I think there's a deeper set of things you can unlock if you really understand, like, how AI has been built from a methodological perspective.", "start": 1641.98, "end": 1651.12 }, { "text": "This is like a larger set of conversations that I think I like to sort of call like a CERN for collective intelligence or CERN for, like, the social and behavioral sciences.", "start": 1651.58, "end": 1660.365 } ], "start": 1624.49, "end": 1660.365, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That has to do with understanding, like, why the hell has AI, like, moved so fast and made such progress, in the past twenty, thirty years?", "start": 1662.1849, "end": 1673.22 }, { "text": "And how can we start replicating that in the social and behavioral sciences?", "start": 1673.22, "end": 1678.44 }, { "text": "Like, in how we design institutions?", "start": 1678.8999, "end": 1681.0 } ], "start": 1662.1849, "end": 1681.0, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1682.82, "end": 1683.0599 }, { "text": "I mean, I think the the advantage of, you know, AI and the math field is that you don't have to deal with people a little bit.", "start": 1683.0599, "end": 1690.4751 }, { "text": "You can just kind of, like I think it's a bit easier to progress in certain ways in certain respects.", "start": 1690.4751, "end": 1695.135 }, { "text": "But, indeed, I think there is there is probably a lot to say for, like, what are the types of social institutions that, you know, autonomous AI agents end up making themselves amongst each other.", "start": 1695.9951, "end": 1709.11 }, { "text": "If we just, like, let them go a little bit and see if, like, what kind of learnings are there.", "start": 1709.89, "end": 1714.31 } ], "start": 1682.82, "end": 1714.31, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I would love to I mean, someone must be doing the experiment already who is, you know, the, is just making a DAO of autonomous agents and see what happens.", "start": 1714.4501, "end": 1723.775 } ], "start": 1714.4501, "end": 1723.775, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I don't think, we've gone yet to DAO of autonomous agents.", "start": 1724.5549, "end": 1727.595 } ], "start": 1724.5549, "end": 1727.595, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Soon.", "start": 1727.595, "end": 1727.995 }, { "text": "Soon.", "start": 1727.995, "end": 1728.235 }, { "text": "Soon.", "start": 1728.235, "end": 1728.54 }, { "text": "You heard it here", "start": 1728.62, "end": 1729.52 } ], "start": 1727.595, "end": 1729.52, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "first.", "start": 1729.8601, "end": 1730.3601 }, { "text": "Actually oh, man.", "start": 1730.7001, "end": 1732.7001 }, { "text": "I actually registered, like, the dye.xyz, to do actually this, like, the decentralized AI", "start": 1732.7001, "end": 1740.86 } ], "start": 1729.8601, "end": 1740.86, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oh, okay.", "start": 1741.26, "end": 1741.54 } ], "start": 1741.26, "end": 1741.54, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But also playing on the DAO.", "start": 1741.66, "end": 1743.04 }, { "text": "This is, like, a thing that I think Ori, one of the sort of founders of the org, and I were kinda brainstorming on during the first Zuzalu, actually.", "start": 1743.74, "end": 1753.755 } ], "start": 1741.66, "end": 1753.755, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Uh-huh.", "start": 1753.8949, "end": 1754.0549 } ], "start": 1753.8949, "end": 1754.0549, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ultimately, it didn't happen, but it definitely would be such a fun experiment to run.", "start": 1754.0549, "end": 1758.075 }, { "text": "The, but there's there's a lot of this happening outside the blockchain space.", "start": 1758.5349, "end": 1761.58 }, { "text": "I think, like, I was just talking to a professor at UW.", "start": 1761.58, "end": 1764.14 }, { "text": "His name first name is Max.", "start": 1764.14, "end": 1765.34 }, { "text": "His last name, I cannot remember right now.", "start": 1765.34, "end": 1766.86 } ], "start": 1754.0549, "end": 1766.86, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But, he, wrote a paper on, basically, governance simulations with LOMs.", "start": 1766.86, "end": 1773.6 }, { "text": "There's a kind of wide range of these kinds of research that are coming out where I have, like, just a bunch of AI agents that are interacting with each other with some within some controlled environment, and we're just kind of, like, playing it off and see what can happen see what happens.", "start": 1773.66, "end": 1788.0449 }, { "text": "I still believe though, like, at the end of the day, these are all as fun and sophisticated as they can sometimes be.", "start": 1789.065, "end": 1797.75 }, { "text": "They are all just toy models, and there is no replacing the actual real world.", "start": 1797.75, "end": 1803.625 }, { "text": "At the end of the day, if you want to make progress in these things, you need to be able to run experiments with real people.", "start": 1804.485, "end": 1809.865 } ], "start": 1766.86, "end": 1809.865, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that's the difference between a DAO and some of these, like, AI test beds.", "start": 1810.325, "end": 1814.745 } ], "start": 1810.325, "end": 1814.745, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1816.645, "end": 1816.86 }, { "text": "Definitely.", "start": 1817.1, "end": 1817.6 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1819.66, "end": 1819.9 }, { "text": "I've just been thinking about too much too much about AI lately.", "start": 1819.9, "end": 1823.02 }, { "text": "Just it it's been kind of like a a theme throughout my time in Thailand a little bit with something coming up with, like, the I don't know if I should mention, like like, the all the meme coin AI agent stuff is just it's mind blowing and, horrifying at the same time.", "start": 1823.02, "end": 1838.6951 } ], "start": 1816.645, "end": 1838.6951, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, just just a warning in case you you look it up what it is, be careful with what pictures you look at.", "start": 1838.6951, "end": 1845.435 }, { "text": "But, yes.", "start": 1847.975, "end": 1850.2201 }, { "text": "I mean, we were also talking earlier.", "start": 1850.2201, "end": 1851.9 }, { "text": "I think it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on, like, what you think DAOs ought to be in some way.", "start": 1851.9, "end": 1859.9 }, { "text": "So, like, I was I listened to a talk a couple days ago from Left Terrace where he said a DAO is not a company, which I completely agree with.", "start": 1859.9, "end": 1867.4349 } ], "start": 1838.6951, "end": 1867.4349, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A DAO is not a company.", "start": 1867.4349, "end": 1868.5549 }, { "text": "It should be it's something else or it should be something else if we want it if you want DAOs to provide some sort of alternative.", "start": 1868.5549, "end": 1875.2949 }, { "text": "If a DAO is a company, then we're just recreating the same thing, except now, you know, may at least partially untethered to, you know, state regulation, which maybe that's what you want.", "start": 1875.995, "end": 1887.92 }, { "text": "That's not I mean, at least I can say that's not what I want.", "start": 1887.92, "end": 1890.4349 } ], "start": 1867.4349, "end": 1890.4349, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think there are two different perspectives on what a DAO is.", "start": 1901.135, "end": 1907.1101 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1907.1101, "end": 1907.27 }, { "text": "And I I will make a statement and say, like, what my perspective is, but I just wanna kinda, like, highlight.", "start": 1907.27, "end": 1913.2101 }, { "text": "There's the movement perspective on what a DAO is.", "start": 1914.63, "end": 1917.93 }, { "text": "It's so important to understand, like, that this is, like, core to the people who actually build DAOs in many ways.", "start": 1918.0701, "end": 1923.925 } ], "start": 1901.135, "end": 1923.925, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That, you know, DAOs need to be decentralized.", "start": 1924.2251, "end": 1926.005 }, { "text": "That they're about offering something that is new to this economy than just traditional corporations.", "start": 1926.625, "end": 1931.365 }, { "text": "That, you know, DAOs are kinda like digital versions of co ops.", "start": 1933.905, "end": 1937.0 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1937.0, "end": 1937.5 }, { "text": "Like, exploring how we can make cooperative structures, union based structures, you know, communal structures more viable and more competitive, and using technology to do that.", "start": 1937.64, "end": 1948.52 } ], "start": 1924.2251, "end": 1948.52, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, like, this is founders of a mutualist society and an incredible person.", "start": 1948.52, "end": 1956.475 }, { "text": "So there's the movement notion of a DAO.", "start": 1958.2151, "end": 1961.1951 }, { "text": "But then there's also the money.", "start": 1961.92, "end": 1964.1 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1964.64, "end": 1965.14 }, { "text": "And I think let's we have to be honest with ourselves as an ecosystem.", "start": 1965.2, "end": 1969.54 } ], "start": 1948.52, "end": 1969.54, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, the reason so many people pay attention to this space is because there are billion dollar DAOs that are floating around out there that are making a lot of money and generating, I think a lot of, let's say, surplus that is then going back into both the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about.", "start": 1969.68, "end": 1987.275 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1987.275, "end": 1987.775 }, { "text": "But the movement DAOs, public goods, different kinds of things that we care about.", "start": 1988.315, "end": 1992.3401 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 1992.3401, "end": 1992.55 }, { "text": "But, like, there are these, like, red hot engines, economic engines, which are generating and spinning out wealth.", "start": 1992.55, "end": 2000.0901 } ], "start": 1969.68, "end": 2000.0901, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And the fact that, you know, these things, these, like, DeFi, these large DeFi DAOs, which, you know, oftentimes can and look like very corporate, right, just, like, slightly, like, if you, like, just, like, fuzz your eyes a little bit, like, the Duke start to look a little bit like corporations.", "start": 2001.8301, "end": 2017.5901 }, { "text": "I think many ways they're they're really not.", "start": 2017.5901, "end": 2019.4501 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 2019.5901, "end": 2020.0901 }, { "text": "I think these are both, like, legit and real perspectives that, like, a lot of people hold in this space.", "start": 2021.27, "end": 2027.27 }, { "text": "And, like, when I sort of look at this, when I'm, Iim, like, putting my hat, like, my DAO star hat on, like, I need to say yes to both parties.", "start": 2027.27, "end": 2037.1951 } ], "start": 2001.8301, "end": 2037.1951, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 2037.655, "end": 2038.155 }, { "text": "I need to be a representative of the entire DAO space, both the movement and the money.", "start": 2038.375, "end": 2042.8025 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2042.8025, "end": 2042.91 }, { "text": "Money.", "start": 2044.8301, "end": 2045.3301 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2045.55, "end": 2046.05 } ], "start": 2037.655, "end": 2046.05, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 2047.55, "end": 2047.9501 }, { "text": "So let me take off my institutional hat and just, like, put on my Josh hat and, like, say, like, what what I what do I think about DAOs?", "start": 2047.9501, "end": 2053.31 }, { "text": "Or what do I where do I want them to", "start": 2053.31, "end": 2054.75 } ], "start": 2047.55, "end": 2054.75, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "go?", "start": 2054.75, "end": 2054.8525 }, { "text": "Let", "start": 2054.8525, "end": 2054.955 } ], "start": 2054.75, "end": 2054.955, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "out.", "start": 2057.355, "end": 2057.435 }, { "text": "For me I am here and in some sense I'm here like in MediGov because I want to see because I think I am have a much better chance of seeing and discovering truly new forms of organization that have not been seen before, in these spaces than anywhere else.", "start": 2057.5151, "end": 2078.95 }, { "text": "Like, discovery is like, you know, the invention of open source.", "start": 2079.09, "end": 2084.0051 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2084.0051, "end": 2084.245 }, { "text": "That was a fundamentally new way of, you know, producing useful stuff in the world that anybody like, nobody had seen before.", "start": 2084.245, "end": 2093.525 } ], "start": 2057.355, "end": 2093.525, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That was only possible because of the Internet, because of the nature of software.", "start": 2093.525, "end": 2099.48 }, { "text": "And I wanna see more stuff like that, more innovation, more knowledge.", "start": 2100.98, "end": 2106.5999 }, { "text": "And sometimes I think this innovation can look like figure out like, solving deeply unsexy problems around, like, how do we coordinate or manage rights and sort of HR kinds of things that I think DAOs could be really good at.", "start": 2106.9, "end": 2118.895 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2118.895, "end": 2119.375 }, { "text": "So DAOs, in this sense, could be, like, much much better corporations.", "start": 2119.375, "end": 2122.44 } ], "start": 2093.525, "end": 2122.44, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 2122.6602, "end": 2123.1602 }, { "text": "More compliant, more transparent, better governed, more productive.", "start": 2123.54, "end": 2128.28 }, { "text": "It could also look like, wow, these are like this is like changing the the possibilities of governance, so that we can have more competitive, bigger scale, cooperative kind of structures that are, like, giving back to the communities that they serve.", "start": 2128.98, "end": 2146.085 }, { "text": "That it's, you know, in MedecoF, we like to say, like, you know, making democracy at least as available as autocracy.", "start": 2146.705, "end": 2154.23 }, { "text": "The idea would be that autocracy is, like, pretty easy to implement in tech.", "start": 2154.45, "end": 2158.23 } ], "start": 2122.6602, "end": 2158.23, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Democracy is hard.", "start": 2158.45, "end": 2159.83 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2160.05, "end": 2160.37 }, { "text": "But part of the idea of doing research is not that we prefer one the other.", "start": 2160.37, "end": 2163.33 }, { "text": "Like, sometimes you you need, like, one person calling the shots in a small in a small company, for example.", "start": 2163.33, "end": 2169.455 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2169.455, "end": 2169.7751 } ], "start": 2158.45, "end": 2169.7751, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But it's, like, at least making it possible to sort of say, like, you know, here here's an alternative.", "start": 2169.7751, "end": 2174.5952 }, { "text": "Let let's see if it could be right or let's lower the cost of implementing this alternative.", "start": 2174.8152, "end": 2179.0752 } ], "start": 2169.7751, "end": 2179.0752, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2181.2952, "end": 2181.5352 }, { "text": "No.", "start": 2181.5352, "end": 2181.7751 }, { "text": "I think I think that's the still the main for me, the the thing that still excites me even when I'm, like, annoyed with the crypto space is that, like, blockchains and crypto are a technology for, like, building institutions or for building, at the very least, the scaffolding of institutions to come.", "start": 2181.7751, "end": 2204.7852 }, { "text": "And we're at I think we are at or close to an a we can do something different.", "start": 2206.7651, "end": 2226.4849 }, { "text": "And I think, the do something different side of this argument is much more compelling for just a a vast array of people.", "start": 2226.9448, "end": 2236.805 } ], "start": 2181.2952, "end": 2236.805, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think the the people who simply want more efficient companies are, you know, they they do have, like, potentially the money on their side, but I don't think that they have, like, public opinion on their side.", "start": 2238.065, "end": 2251.98 }, { "text": "And so I think we have this opportunity to offer, like, a just a a way to very differently relate to, civic organizations, organizations through the Internet in a way that we simply either haven't been able to yet or simply have not had the the, the moment in which to transition into something that is more democratic.", "start": 2252.92, "end": 2281.73 }, { "text": "So, yeah, so I think this this is this is, like, a lot of what Nathan Schneider talks about in his book, Governable Spaces, which I really enjoyed, and I spoke to him about it previously on the podcast, that, yeah, the Internet, in some ways has been democratizing on some centralizing force for, for other things as well.", "start": 2282.83, "end": 2307.3499 }, { "text": "So, yeah, we have now the technology to do it, and we need to out collaborate the the the weirdo corporatists in order to, make something different.", "start": 2307.3499, "end": 2319.405 } ], "start": 2238.065, "end": 2319.405, "num_words": 182.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We need to build.", "start": 2322.105, "end": 2322.9849 } ], "start": 2322.105, "end": 2322.9849, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2322.9849, "end": 2323.2249 }, { "text": "We gotta build.", "start": 2323.2249, "end": 2324.125 }, { "text": "So, yeah.", "start": 2325.385, "end": 2325.785 }, { "text": "Thanks so much for coming on and sharing all your work.", "start": 2325.785, "end": 2329.6301 }, { "text": "And now if you want to share, leave a plug for people.", "start": 2330.57, "end": 2333.05 } ], "start": 2322.9849, "end": 2333.05, "num_words": 29.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Is there anything people should check out, you think, or, website or things they should follow?", "start": 2333.05, "end": 2338.03 } ], "start": 2333.05, "end": 2338.03, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2338.09, "end": 2338.4902 }, { "text": "So, both Medigov and DAOSTAR are very open communities.", "start": 2338.4902, "end": 2343.1848 }, { "text": "Just go to medigov.org, daostar.org.", "start": 2343.325, "end": 2347.505 }, { "text": "You'll find ways to join our respective online communities and start getting plugged in and actually contribute to some standards.", "start": 2347.645, 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