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I just had a man at my door, and he was offering to bring me to a room every weekend in the winter with a group of adults to talk about these topics that I was curious about. It sounds like it's just any old conference, which it really is not. You know, it's it's a group of people who've said yes to to be in a room together, to really spend time, energy, and effort to relate with each other, to listen to each other, to listen to really complex material, to try to join dots between the complex material. Like, for want of a better word, it's really a creative process to be involved in the citizens assembly because you're trying to take all of these seemingly disparate pieces of new information for me and weave them into something that then might make some sense for all of the rest of the country, that we may have something that will actually do a good service to our other citizens of the country. Welcome to How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy but know it needs to change. I'm Omezine. And I'm John. This time, we're looking in-depth at the Irish Citizens Assembly. I hosted a public event in Dublin in September 2025 with three key people. David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, who's been involved from the very beginning when the idea of creating a citizens assembly in Ireland was just that, an idea. Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant originally tasked with making it happen for real, who's played a key role ever since. And perhaps most importantly, Louise Caldwell, who you just heard at the beginning. One of the citizens who was randomly selected to be a participant. I have to confess that before meeting you, John, I hadn't heard about any of this sort of thing at all. Maybe the only thing I can think of is participatory budgeting and, it was implemented after the revolution in my home city, La Marsa in Tunisia. My mom came, to came home, after a city council and she brought with her, a leaflet talking about this this process. And and I was a national politician then and, I was too busy with clever stuff at the national level, and that's it. And I didn't pay attention anymore. Then I started her hearing all the stories you were sharing with me. And now this. Your guests totally got me inspired. I am fascinated by citizens assemblies. Especially Louise. There's nothing like first hand testimony. It was a very fun process. It was a very exhausting process. It was a very inspiring process for me personally. I learned an enormous amount, not only about the topic, but about myself, about humanity, about people, how to relate, how to have conversations, how to disagree, and how to move forward even when things are very, very difficult. And it doesn't feel like any of us knew what we were doing. I'd never been involved in politics. I mean, I was interested in current affairs. I'd read the news. I'd, you know, I was a participant in society, I thought. But I hadn't never considered how decisions were made or how policy was written or how complex it can be. And actually, I came out at the end feeling very sorry for politicians thinking I'm I don't know how they make any decisions Mhmm. At all. Because it's it's really difficult to make good decisions, to make well informed decisions, you know, that are gonna be good for the majority of people in society. Up to date then, I suppose I've been advocating for assemblies. I've been speaking to anyone who'll listen. I've been and, you know, I suppose since then I'm on the board of a of a global organization called People Powered, which really supports practitioners. So individuals, civil society groups, civil servants, both local and national, all over the world who are working with participatory processes. Everything from citizens assemblies, mini publics, participatory budgeting, legislative theater. They're working on the ground and this, I suppose, network then allows people to share their experiences so that we can really lift up what's working and what's not working and what works in different contexts, what works in different parts of the world. That is all, you know, a volunteer role. I'm I'm just really passionate about about bringing this to as many people as possible. Isn't it just so refreshing to hear someone going from an ordinary citizen with no special interest becoming such a passionate advocate? I hear these stories all the time, by the way. I was in Norway recently when one of the randomly selected citizens in an assembly there working on the investment strategy of Norway's sovereign wealth fund. It's a whole other story. But he happened to be a social media agency director. And since the assembly concluded, he's now taken it on himself to make social media videos of him finding various senior politicians and forcing copies of the recommendations of the citizens assembly into their hands. But let's meet Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant, and hear a bit more about the nuts and bolts of all this. Most of people in the audience, I can see, are too young to remember the financial crash back in in 2008, 2009, 2010. And we had a a general election in 2011, and the Irish people elected a government on the basis of transformation. The old ways of doing things didn't work. We made a mess of it, and we need to try new things, you know. And this is where the germ of the idea of a citizen's assembly came along. Our constitution was 75 years old, and the government said, well, we'll create a forum where we will include randomly selected people, and some some members of parliament as well, and put them in a room together to have a look at, some of these issues to see if we can find some solutions. I was sitting at home on on my couch one evening around 11:00 at night, and my phone rang, you know. And, I I don't know about any of you, but nobody ever rings me at 11:00 at night to say they're having a good day, you know. So, I I was working in the parliament at the time. I had responsibility for communications, media broadcasting, that kind of stuff. So I assumed that it was a newspaper editor with a story that was gonna make my life miserable with some scoop for the following day. So I nervously answered the phone. Hello? And it was Arteshuk, the prime minister. And, he said, hi, Art. I I have a job for you. We have this thing in the program for government. It's never ever going to work, but we promised we would do it. And we're a government that was elected to keep our promises, so I'd like you to do it. And I said, well, what is it? And he said, it's called a constitutional convention. And I said, well, what does that mean? What does it do? So he said, we're gonna put a 100 people in a room, and we're gonna ask them a whole pile. Most of them will be randomly selected. And, we're gonna ask them a whole pile of really hard questions about things like marriage equality or electoral system and all kinds of other things that we don't know the answer to. And at the end of that process, they're gonna tell us what they think, and we're gonna see what we're gonna do about it. And I said, yeah. That's never gonna work. You know? So, he said, I know it's not, but we promise to do it, and we have to do it. So we we spoke about the ins and outs of how this might work. And, I said, let me see if I have you straight, Tishuk. As long as I don't kill anybody or spend any money, I can do whatever I like with this bunch of people. And he said famously, I knew you were the fella for me. You know? So so so that's where it started. It was as simple as that. I rang my boss and said, I have to go and do a thing. I'll be back in six months, keep my seat warm. And I never went back to work in the parliament. But there's something going on in the world right now. Yeah. You know? Increasingly, political systems are looking for ways of including citizens in the development of policy and making better political decisions. And increasingly, citizens are looking to become more involved beyond electing people every five years. So in in the last two and a half years, I have been in 81 different countries talking about Ireland's experience with citizens assemblies because we are considered to be the world leaders. I mean, we have set up citizens assemblies that delivered transformational social change in this country, the abortion assembly. We delivered marriage equality. We had a citizens' assembly that delivered our climate action plan, which introduced carbon taxes without even a murmur from the public. In France, they were setting cars on fire at the notion of carbon taxes. We had a citizen's assembly. Everybody saw how the process worked and and what had happened. People accepted it. It turned into the government's climate action plan, turned into legislation. And now that single citizen's assembly, which people give out about spending a million euro in running, has determined how Ireland is going to to invest €50,000,000,000 between now and 2050. The one thing I would say is that we need to stop thinking of citizens' assemblies as having a cost. They're an investment. Yeah. You know? Because even the simple things like the abortion referendum and the marriage equality referendum, It cost us around €20,000,000 to run a referendum in this country. Is it not wise that we would spend 5% of that making sure we got the question right? These are investments, not costs. We try and make sure that every citizen's assembly is better than the one that went before us. We went from a situation where we're knocking on doors. Now we use on post our national postal service, geo directory map to select randomly select households based on where people live. So it's a big heat map of the country. And so we send a small few to Mullingar and a lot to Cork City and depending on where people live as well. We are much more sophisticated in the selection. And I'll finish on this point, perhaps. To understand this properly, the the, there are some things about representing rep get getting Ireland in one room. Some of the stuff is easy. We've got 51 women and 49 men. We've got 28 people who live in Dublin, because 28 of our population live in Dublin. We've got 12 people between the age of 18 and 24, but we don't stop there. So age, region, and gender is easy. We in the overall group, we need four farmers, you know, because 4% of our population are farmers. We need 11 people with a disability. We need 17 people, who aren't born in this country. And the list goes on. Layer by layer by layer, you randomly select individuals. So at the end of this process, which we call Ireland in One Room, every single person in Ireland should be able to look into that room and see themselves there. And if they don't see themselves there, they should see their opinion represented there. And the results of the abortion assembly, and I I won't spoil all of the surprise here, Louise, except to say that that assembly brought forward recommendations which shocked the government and the media to its core, went way, way beyond what was expected by the government because they were hoping for or they were expecting perhaps something a little more modest, but they they recommended a very liberal regime of women's reproductive health. They voted in the room 65, 35 in favor of this regime. When that question was put to the Irish people in a referendum, the result was sixty six thirty four. Think about that. First thing it proves that that room was perfectly representative of the Irish people. And more importantly, it proved that the Irish people were much more nuanced and much more sophisticated in their thinking on this issue than the political system gave them credit for. They were way, way ahead of the politicians. Behavioral economists call this the wisdom of crowds. So a true citizens assembly, capital c, capital a, has two key characteristics. It's about representation and deliberation. It's a group of people selected at random and then filtered to be representative of the wider population on all key demographics. And then given time to deliberate with one another and make recommendations and sometimes even decisions. I love this. I really love this. We seem so far from what we call today representative democracy. The current model of elected MPs where most are career politicians, and they seem so disconnected from people's realities. I mean, I was a politician. I know many people are there for the good reasons, but this kind of representation is another level. And I also really love this insight that societies are indeed ahead of their establishments. And it is difficult to measure when you think of it, you know, you have polls, surveys, studies, protests, and revolutions. But this citizens assembly is another level. They showed how advanced people are compared to politicians and and, who who who who are supposed to represent them. Right? And the more I think of it, the more incredible I think it is to be able to take a snapshot of societies, through I mean, think of it like it's society beliefs, values, and thinking in a process that ends up with passing a legislation based on those. And to the Irish politicians' credit, Right? We we we need to acknowledge that for them. They were humble. They were smart. And they were visionary, you know, to set up the citizens assembly. And it's and it's like for them giving or sharing their power. Right? Like, they didn't see it as a threat to their power, but rather as a tool to give them authentic, legitimacy. Right. And we're just starting to hear in detail about the most famous example of the Irish Citizens Assembly's work on abortion, and Louise was part of that. What's interesting is that I don't even think that we knew ourselves as the assembly members when we went to the ballot at the fifth weekend. We didn't know how far we were gonna go. Right? Because abortion is a very sensitive topic. And people might imagine that there would be sparks and fireworks with with this type of conversation, but really it was very careful. It was very quiet, I would say, at the table. It was considered. It was respectful. There was just so much information came at us. The next three weekend got added. And also we had heard from all the experts and we kind of we were trying to start to make sense of all that. And then we thought, who's missing here? We're like, okay. We need to hear from people who've been affected by this. So that was the main, I suppose, feedback piece that had a fundamental change in how our assembly was run. And the secretariat of the assembly went away and found samples of people who had been affected by the eighth amendment in the constitution. So they found a variety of different people who'd been affected, both positively, negatively, people who'd had abortions regretted it, people who hadn't and wished they could've, people who'd had to marry in the nineteen sixties and had been miserable their entire lives because they, you know, they had an unexpected pregnancy, etcetera. So they were recorded and we all sat in the room that morning and they played the recordings of these interviews. That was very, very difficult. Many people just had their hands on then like that at the table. It was so hard to listen to. And at the end of it, it was almost like there was nothing left to say. We kinda just looked at each other. I remember at my table and we just went, oh, for God's sake. Why do we even debate in here? This is madness that we're that we can't just allow people to make their own decision that is in their best interest for their life, in their context, that none of us could ever possibly understand or know. And that was just everything just tipped over after that. Just to touch you, Lou Louise mentioned it, and and I think it's very important. One of the the key principles of, every citizen's assembly is that there is zero tolerance for conflict. There are very few rules in the room, but every one of those 100 citizens have to be able to walk into a room and express their opinion in a safe environment. We've had a couple of occasions where we've we've had to ask people, I think you go for a walk around the block now. Clear your head. And when you're prepared to be respectful, then, then we'll let you back in as well. And I think that's absolutely key. And this is the that was so important for the citizens because everyone has their own life experiences, their own opinions on on these things as well. And what we created was a safe environment in which to express those opinions. And people were much more willing to be open and honest about this knowing that there was no judgment coming from around the table. They convinced me citizens' assemblies can help solve intractable issues. When you think of it, who could have thought that a predominantly Catholic country would vote for such a progressive regime for women's reproductive health? I wanna be disabled's advocate, but your guests are so sincere and convincing. Very good. I think this is where we might bring in our idea of playing relationship counselors between humanity and democracy and how we have the tough conversations we need to have. Citizens' assemblies can play a really important role in creating the space for these conversations to happen. I think it might be helpful to contrast this process with another referendum that happened two years earlier, Brexit. I'm not really talking about the output in terms of the policy recommendation and how progressive or not it was, but I'm more talking about the outcome in terms of citizens' trust in one another, citizens' trust in politicians and in politics, and the trust of politics and politicians in citizens, actually. Because in The UK, we seem now to think that referenda are a terrible idea, that they're inherently divisive, That they they make people hate each other and hate politicians. Mhmm. And that's not what happened in Ireland with the referendum. There, arguably as a result of the citizens assembly and despite all the same misinformation, disinformation, the country has actually come together after a referendum. Rather than there still being the division like there is in The UK between leavers and remainers, which still divides us maybe even more now than in 2016, they've come together. I really like the way the Irish political commentator, Finton O'Toole, put it in an article in The Guardian. He wrote that during the referendum campaign, because there were people like me in inverted commas on the breakfast radio and TV shows, the randomly selected citizens from the assembly, people like Louise, rather than politicians arguing with one another over people's heads. But as a result of that, this process was, he wrote, immune to the usual disinformation. And the country came together afterwards rather than pulling apart. That feels so important. I think people are really fed up of seeing politicians and experts talking at them. The fact that normal people, people just like them, were randomly selected, learned about the topic, and came up with recommendations, all in a transparent process, changes from the usual suspects. Political leaders seen as disconnected from reality, biased, working behind closed doors, and speaking a complicated language. I think that's exactly right. There's a lovely phrase that Helene Landemore, who's one of the thinkers behind all of this work, she wrote a book called Open Democracy. She has this phrase. She says, what these create is experts on top, not experts on top. That expertise is available to people, but it's not like it's doing things for people and and deciding without them. It feels like we have two systems that need to coexist. One represents old power structures established since a long time, as long as eighteen, eight eight hundred years in The UK. The first assembly was formed in the thirteenth century to approve the king's taxes. The elite, whether from power, wealth, or education, or all of the above, devising and making decisions behind closed doors. And, and, and they see their roles as maintaining stability and managing state affairs for as long as they can. And the other system represent new powers, you know, open structures where randomly selected citizens represent representing all levels of societies have open deliberations that could be followed by anyone who's interested in the process. These citizens return to their everyday life After their contract is achieved, so they are perceived as genuine, truly independent and honest. Citizens assemblies seem to create spaces where these systems can come together and actually trust one another and also politicians more, when you think of it, and actually build those relationships again, you know, relationship between citizens and politicians, which is so much better than what is happening in so many places, right? Where when countries go through crises, people give the benefit of the doubt to the strongmen who cut through complexity, use binary devisive, but a simple language that can be understand by anyone. Right. And I worry that the mood we have in many places today is that we should never do referenda. We should never ask citizens the question because it will inevitably go wrong. But what the Irish process shows, I think, is it's much more about how you do them rather than whether. And what's really important to know is that the Citizens Assembly wasn't created against the backdrop of political or social unity. In fact, its origins are in 02/2009 during the great financial crisis. That hit Ireland really hard, and trust in government at the time was actually below 10%. How did this space where the relationships between citizens and politicians and between citizens and each other has got so much better? How and why did it get created in the first place? This is where David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, came into the conversation. So I write a textbook on electoral systems, a real page turner. And, in 2003, I got this email from this buddy of mine from University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Ken Carty, saying, hey David, do you want to come to Vancouver for a few days to talk about, electoral systems to a bunch of citizens? I said, yeah. You'll find me out to find no problem. I'll I'll go there. But I didn't know what it was all about. And then he explained, it's this thing we're trying. It's called a citizens assembly. So it became it was the British Columbia citizens assembly, the world's first citizens assembly that looked at the electoral system, and they used my textbook as the main text, and I was an expert witness. I had autographs to sign. I had a 160 citizens in a snaking robe, you sign, you know, photographs, a whole shooting match. In Ontario, they did the same thing a few months later. In The Netherlands, they did the same. They had three citizens assemblies all on electoral systems. So I had never heard of a citizens assembly. I didn't even know the word sortition. I knew nothing about deliberation. I was an electoral systems person, but I'd actually witnessed one of these things. You know, if if any of you have ever had the opportunity to go to one go, just to stand in the room and soak up the atmosphere, it's one of the most incredible experiences of your life. So anyway, flash forward 2008, 2009, Art was telling the story of the crash. Major crash. And everyone was very angry. All the indicators went down. The economy went down. The political indicators went down. People were protesting on the streets, and different groups started to campaign for change. And it's hard to believe it, but in the mix were political scientists. We rolled up our sleeves, came out of the ivory tower, you name whatever metaphor you want, and pushed an agenda of political reform. We're talking about all sorts of reforms that should be introduced in terms, you know, gender quotas and elect parliamentary reform, all of that sort of stuff. But particularly, we talked about citizens assemblies. We were writing op eds and not getting listened to, getting shouted at, being told you ignorant academics. We have a citizens assembly, it's Dail Eireann. Would you trust your citizens to talk about complex things? No. And, you know, you talk about British Columbia, but Canadians are different. Here in Ireland, it would never work. These three things. We have a citizens assembly, citizens are stupid and it wouldn't work here. And we kept on pushing, we went on the airwaves, weren't getting very far. And then out of the blue, I got this email one day from an organization called Atlantic Philanthropies. Long gone now, and so not known to many of the people in the room, but it was set up by an American, an Irish American, Chuck Feeney, whose ambition in life He was listed as the twentieth richest man in the world in the nineteen eighties. And his mission in life was to give away every last dime of his money before he died, and he did. So he had all sorts of just good causes that he supported in Ireland and other countries. And they approached me and said, the Atlantic are famous for this. They don't you don't approach them, they approach you. So I was told, go in and have the meeting with them. So I sat down with my mates and we wrote up some plans and I had in my back pocket, literally. Went into the meeting, just, you know, they said at a certain point, do you ever think about running one of these things? I said, you know, if you got a $100 to spare, we could do this as an experiment for you. They looked at me, they shook their heads, they said, you're not serious. This isn't ambitious enough. Why don't you reflect on this conversation, go away and think about it? So as an academic applying for funding, I had this bizarre situation where I had three meetings with these guys for them to say the money I was asking for wasn't enough. Eventually, we settled on €650,000, which is a substantial amount in 2010, to establish an organization. So we set up an organization called We the Citizens. We had the then chair of the then head of the Irish theater, Firth Mac O'Neill, who became our front of office person. We had professional administrators running the show. We had an office in the center of Dublin, and then four nearly political scientists in the background doing all the experimental work. And we ran road shows all around the country to drum up interest in deliberative processes and to also get a sense of what the people of Ireland wanted to talk about. And this culminated in Ireland's first citizens assembly, the We the Citizens Assembly in 2011. We were experimenting on a 100 citizens to map how the impact of being involved in this affected them, which produces produced data. And then we had a series of meetings with all the party leaders, produced our report and said, look, it works. There's a lot of serendipity in the story, the serendipity of the crash. Mhmm. The serendipity that I accidentally discovered citizens assemblies. The serendipity of the politicians being open and receptive to the idea of political reform in a time when they had no money to spend on the economy. So in a sense, we we were pushing at an open door, and what happened is the the newly elected government agreed with the idea, set it up, and then the next step in serendipity was that they insisted that a third of the members of the convention that they were now going to set up, that Art was talking about, should be members of parliament. We said to them, that's madness. That will not work. The politicians will take over. They'll dominate and everything. And we were proven wrong. It really worked. The final bit of serendipity is they appointed Art, who as you've just heard used to work in the parliament. So he knew he knew the species of the politicians and they knew him. So there was no better person to keep control of this very unusual mix of citizens and politicians. And my final point here, which is of relevance, is what you then produced were 33 politicians who not only knew about citizens' assemblies, they'd been members of a citizens' assembly. And to this day, we have party leaders. Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein, the most recent leader of the Social Democrats, the recent speaker or or chairperson of the Dail, people who are government ministers, had been members of these things. Some of them had been critics of it beforehand and they were converted. And so this real story as to why Ireland has had so many of them ever since, the big part of that is the fact that we converted our politicians by accident in terms of the design. It it is one of the big features because it was only the first senate assembly, the constitutional convention, which had politicians. The five since were were 100 members, you know. And but David David is absolutely right. You know, the the first meeting of the citizens and the politicians was very, very difficult, you know, because the citizens were saying, we're not gonna be pushed around now. We want to have our say. And and, and and one politician took and I won't say who it is because he's a he's a minister now, so I I won't embarrass him. But he took the microphone on four occasions at the first meeting to say how important it was that the citizens had a voice, you know. Yeah. And the irony of that went over his head. What it did create when the reports went back from the citizens assembly to the parliament for consideration, the the recommendations to reduce the voting age for marriage equality. Unlike many of the other citizens assemblies, including British Columbia, there was an ownership in the room. Yeah. You know, they said, actually, no. We were there. We were in the room. We know this works. This was fair. This was a brilliant process. When Ken Carty in British Columbia sent his report to the parliament, they left it on a shelf for two years and said, who are these people? What are they doing? Who asked them to do that? And it just simply didn't work. That lovely sense of ownership. So it didn't require politicians being involved in the future because there has been continuing membership of that. There are still members of the Iraqtus right now who remember being in that room, staying up till 2AM, speaking to ordinary citizens, and that sense of family that was created about this shared job of work of which they are very proud. This is when there was this intense anger on the streets. You know, people lost their jobs, and the public sector had lost pay. It there were questions at one point about whether there might be a run on on, the, you know, the ATMs and everything. Things were really, really bad. And, we we certainly fetch you know, had arrived in Kilkenny and put out leaflets and went on local radio, our our our team, saying, you want to come for a bowl of soup and talk about the future of Ireland? You know, come to this hotel at this time of night and and be ready to to talk. And I remember we were so nervous whether anyone was gonna turn up, but also what kind of mood we're gonna get into the room. And I remember Fiac McNeil, as I said, our chair, who put it, I thought, so well. He was interviewed later on about how to how to gone because a 150 people turned up, had their bowl of soup, had a perfectly civil conversation in a deliberative way with facilitators and everything. No anger. And as he said, what happened is that people park the anger at the door. Every other event was of the same kind. They knew they were coming here to have a civil conversation, which is what you want with good deliberation. They instinctively I'm not saying it was an Irish thing. It was just citizens get this. I think it's Martin Luther King. I'm gonna paraphrase him poorly here, but he says that is it that riot is the is the language of the oppressed or something like that. Basically, you know, that the anger, I think, stems from not having a voice and not having a channel through which to speak what what's going on for you, what you're afraid of, what you're worried about, what you know, and I think that the a citizens assembly process opens up this space to go, what are we gonna do about this? And just on that issue, what you said about the two way nature of trust, I mean, strikes a chord with me because the political system, when they received the reports from the citizens, they trusted the process. They it was designed properly. It was thorough. People gave it their all, etcetera. But interestingly, on the first assembly where the politicians were involved, there was a lot of anger at politicians at the first meeting. At the last meeting, it was hugs and kisses, and it's beautiful. But the essence of that was that the citizens came out and said, do you know politicians aren't bad people? You know? They know an awful lot of stuff about an awful lot of stuff that we don't give them much credit for, and they work damn hard. You know? And that sense of trust because they got to be close-up to the political system was a very important feature, again, of that first assembly. I think we're really getting into why citizens assemblies work now. This is a kind of a therapy space for politics to go to. It's like if there are standing citizens assemblies everywhere, then the relationships between humanity and democracy might be better. Just like if everyone had access to really good therapy, the relationships between humans and humans might be better. Totally. I agree. These processes seem to make it possible to have a respectful dialogue where there are rules to continue that dialogue, and at the same time have experts come and inform you about issues that you may not be familiar with. And you can have interventions that help you understand a topic, whether confirm or bring a new light to your previous thoughts. And when people come together and work together on topics they care about, and there is an environment that allows for genuine but also very personal conversations. I think there is a magic that happens. It brings the personal and the political together, and that I think is what we need right now. I think this is a human trait because always we are wondering, is this replicable? Is the citizen assembly in Ireland only successful because it's Ireland? Right? But when you you get to speak and have deep conversations, when you work together for quite some time on difficult issues, there is empathy that is created. And because sometimes maybe you will discover that there is one person who who wants to kick you because in this representation sort of exercise you can have anyone. Right? Yeah. And then that's what we usually afraid of. Are we going to have our adversary or our our enemy with us there? I mean, here we're not trying to be blind to racist bigotry or fascism, but at the same time, I believe these processes make these violent ideologies, sentiments stand out, you know, and when we see that they are a minority in a group. I, I fundamentally believe in, in humanity and universal values. And I think when you, even when you have this sortition kind of exercise, you will see that humanity is, is fundamentally, you know, not violent against each other. And I think in these kind of dynamics, we really see how small and not representative, these these awful ideologies are. And sometimes you have magic happen when when these people can see maybe that they were wrong all the time. Maybe they will understand that there are different life experiences and that there are different opinions and that's okay. We don't need to hate and kill each other because of that. And what I'm saying, I'm very influenced by my friend Diya Khan. She's a filmmaker. She filmed this incredible documentary called Meeting the Enemy. And, you know, Diya is a brown Muslim woman. The way she puts it is she, she always experienced racism, right? And, and, and hate from both communities. You know, she grew up in, in, in Norway and she lived in The UK. And she had she faced hate both from her brown community as she puts it, and from her white community. Like, and, and because she was raised as a musician and they were saying the the brown community would say, okay, Muslim woman shouldn't be using their voice, shouldn't be singing, shouldn't be artists. And the white supremacists that she would they they would spit at her, when she was Wow. A kid, and it would tell her go back to your country. But, when and she received death threats in The UK when when she was talking about how societies need to be diverse and multiple. And, she said that the the the British police told her we cannot protect you. Our advice to you is to stay away from windows. But, she she's crazy. She was crazy enough to go say, okay, then, I'm going to face my enemies. I'm gonna go and face white supremacists in The US. And she went to march with white supremacists in Charlottesville back in '26 2017. She actually, no. She didn't march with them. She walked with them and she filmed the marshes. And and there was this incredible story where after meeting with her, you know, she's been filming the the the founders of these neo Nazi groups. They've been transformed with talking to her and having them, you know, look at her pictures as a kid, going into her first marches, anti fascist, anti racist, and telling them, do you want to deport me? As a Muslim and brown woman, I represent the people you want to deport. And they said, no, you've become our friend. And there is this incredible, incredible transformation that at the end of the documentary, we two of them drop out of these movements and say we've been wrong. And now she, she goes with, with them to do talks and to speak about how this relationship that, that that was built between them, this new friendship, you know, is is really the antidote to fascism and the antidote to hatred. I love that so much. It's it's such a powerful example. And I didn't know you were friends with Diya Khan. She's quite an inspiration. What I think is so exciting about some of these processes is that they actually create that sort of space deliberately and on much larger kind of scale. So it doesn't require kind of the individual heroism of someone like Dia. Right? And and I wanna tell you about an example of famous process that I love the story of. It was called America in one room. Happened in 2019 during the first Trump administration. And it was actually a really polarizing moment. So the this whole thing took place over four days. It was a it was a process called deliberative polling. So it's slightly different to a citizen's assembly because they're not coming up with recommendations. They're they're taking ideas and and policy ideas and so on and and responding to them, but only after having had a chance to deliberate about them with one another. So rather than just standard polling, you just go, do you agree with this or not? Deliberative polling, they do that first, and then you have a chance to talk to people who are not like you about it. And then they ask you again, and you see what changes. Okay. And so in this, they had they had, 530 American citizens, representative of The US population on all key demographics, brought together in a conference suite in Dallas for four days. And the day after, the final day of this, was the day that Nancy Pelosi launched the the impeachment proceedings against Trump. So just to remind us that, like, this was already a really polarized time. So the backdrop of this was not, like, not an easy moment to do this process. But what happened and I think this draws out a lot of what you were saying. Like, these randomly selected 530 people, because they're representative of the population, you had 30 people in there who explicitly self identified as extremely conservative. And you had another 30 who explicitly self identified as extremely liberal. And that the rumor goes that the whole process nearly didn't go ahead because the insurance company tried to charge them too much to do the thing because they thought they were gonna kill each other. Right? Like, there's such fear of this. But in the event, two things happened that you've just kind of alluded to, but I can draw out a little bit more. And the first is because out of 530, actually 60 holding fairly extreme views, very extreme views, isn't a very high percentage. Right? It's like 10 or 11%. And and in social media world, where that's the only forum for conversation, those people dominate the conversation and make us all think that everyone is extreme. And then the 80% in the middle shut up and 90% hide. And and whereas in this representative sampling, in a in deliberative polling or a citizen's assembly, they're only 10%. And it becomes clear that they are not the majority. So that's the first thing that happens. The second thing is that and I think you're alluding to this with the example of Diya really. Like, the the nature of the conversation, the the the encounter with people of different backgrounds is that that in itself is the best cure for polarization. Right? And in the literature, there's there's on polarization, there are two kinds. There's there's issue polarization where I disagree with Omicine about this issue, which very rarely happens. Should happen more often. And then and then there's affective polarization where because I don't just disagree with you, like affective polarization is I think you're evil. Mhmm. And the really fascinating thing in this process was that affective polarization went through the floor. Like, and not just to the extent that that it went through the floor in the in the moment. Like, there was a follow-up survey a year later, which basically found that that these 530 people, the vast majority of them, had actually become kind of depolarizers in their own communities. Maybe not to the extent of deer, but but they were they were actively seeking to to build bridges in their own communities. So I think this double impact of of reducing the noise from the extremes by by by making clear that they are not the majority and then creating the environment for this contact and this transformation are the two kind of core things that these processes do. David actually tells a story that really brings home how this happens. It's a really beautiful and powerful story, which we'll hear in a moment. I think we need to get ourselves ready for a final conversation about just how replicable this is, like how far things like citizens assemblies can go to help save democracy. So we're gonna need to start challenging things a bit. I started this at the event by raising the fact that while Ireland's assembly had been very active and up until 2022, there actually hasn't been so much in the last couple of years. Here's Art again. A significant feature of all of those was at the program for government stage. It's when coalition parties sit down together and say, what do we think about what are we going to agree that we're going to do in the next term of five years? For the first three or four of those governments from, from 2011, there were always issues that they couldn't agree on. And these tended to be some of these intractable political problems, things like climate change, things like abortion, marriage equality, illegal drug use, biodiversity loss, local government, and that kind of thing. The most recent government, as you you may know, is a follow on government from minus the Green Party. And they they have been working with each other for so long, when they sat down at the parliament for government, they found, well, actually, Gerald, we have solutions to most of these problems in mind already. We have many, many problems in this country. If you open up any newspaper, you'll see housing and cost of living and health care and all of these things. But the government has a plan for all of these issues. And it probably wouldn't be the best use of the citizens assembly to say, well, actually, will you just go and and have a look at housing for us? We have a plan, but correct our homework, RC. If you come up with something different, they are all they're already on a path. And David is a real expert on this. Unlike countries who have gone the institutionalization route where they have permanent citizens' assemblies who are generating problems for themselves to solve. Ours is a very top down system. I mean, we do have big problems. We like every society, we have huge problems. We we are facing the same threats to our democracy that every other country is. We might be a little bit behind, but we're catching up fast. And, you know, some of us have been urgently, ever increasingly urgently calling for further deliberative processes to address big questions that are coming down the tracks. You know, what kind of Ireland do we want for the twenty first century? How do we deal with the issue of migration in a in a civilized way? How do we deal with racism? What are the correct solutions? You know, and and more and more of those. So we definitely have the big problems. A lot of what Art says, I agree with. I mean, you know, we have these two parties that are now in coalition that, much as they might deny it, are quite comfortable. Originally, they were the same party back in the nineteen twenties. So, you know, that's maybe where they end up eventually. But the difference is there's no small party in the mix that are, you know, put a little bit of dirt in the in the in the machinery. Gritting the oyster. Yeah. Gritting the oyster, whatever it is. And it's it's from there that you get the potential perhaps for a citizens' assembly to take root. That doesn't help. We lost two two referendums that were defeated last year on care and family. One of them had the worst referendum defeat in the history of our referendums. They both followed the gender citizens assembly. They were seen by the government as recommendations of the citizens assembly. It's a more long winded story, which is that the wording that was presented was not the wording that was recommended. It was a big defeat, but nevertheless, there's a sort of sense among some in the political class perhaps that it didn't work on this occasion. Yeah. The language changed, and it became known that the language had changed. And I think people were confused by what had happened. And I think where you have confusion, people just reject. I know And I mean, we don't know We have no way of knowing why it failed. And it will have failed They will have failed for multiple reasons. But the language changed, and it's more than It's it's there's more nuance to it. It's not just the language recommended by the Citizens Assembly. The same language was recommended by the special parliamentary committee that was established to report on the Citizens Assembly, which it was what happened in the abortion case. So citizens assembly, Parl special par all party parliamentary committee recommended the language of the citizens assembly. Then it took a year before the government finally came word forward with wording, which was so watered down that it didn't reflect what was going on. One final thing on this, which is why I think these referendums are significant, is because the last government in its program for government had recommended one more citizens assembly on educational reform. And all the people in this sector were beefing up for it, and a plan and position paper is ready. There was going to be a citizens assembly on educational reform. The government ran out of time. The new government that was elected in its program for government is now proposing to establish a forum on education. The citizens' assembly is not being used for this particular purpose. So so they've dropped it. As Art said, it could come back again in the future, but certainly this government has has gone cold on it. You would have to ask yourself, was it the most suitable subject for our citizens assembly? We did biodiversity loss. You know, how do we solve the biodiversity loss crisis? And that was as big a subject as I would ever hope to have to do again. It was enormous, and it was almost too much for the citizens to cope with. Education, when you think of preschool, primary, secondary, third level, lifelong education, big deal with groups facing educational barriers, etcetera. The first assembly that they ran in Scotland, you'll remember this one. John, what kind of Scotland do you want to live in? Some things are just too big to be answered because the only subjects that should be given to a citizens assembly are meaty policy issues where you have multiple possible options. The Citizens Assembly in Scotland came back with, we'd like, better education, less crime, more equality, houses for everyone, health care, la la la. No good. No use at at all to any government, and they have learned their lessons. And at the other end, binary questions don't suit either. You know? So, the our first constitutional convention looked at the length of the presidential term, which is relevant now. You know? So should it be reduced from seven years to five years? And our citizens said, well, no. We should keep it at seven years because every president should get the opportunity to serve over two governments. You know, so two different governments. And and that was fair enough. But they went off to make recommendations on the nomination process, campaign funding limits, the age of candidacy for the presidency, etcetera. There is no such thing as a binary question for a group of 100 people. So I think we've gotten stuck in this idea that it has to be national and it has to be a huge problem. You know, there's a local government system in Ireland that is ripe for citizens assemblies, mini publics, for deeper, more meaningful consultation and participation. Like, I even see in my own council, and I I've received the same old, you know, we're looking for your participation in this process, public engagement. It's they've already decided everything, and they want me just to kind of I don't know what they want me to do, to be honest. I'm not sure what I'm asked to do, so I end up doing nothing, because I go, well, it's already decided. You know, there's there's there's an opportunity, I think, for super local things, and I think this is the antidote to an awful lot of the problems that we see in communities that are very specific to particular communities. You know, if you come to my local community, I live in rural Mead. You know, if you go to Phibbsboro where I used to live, very different set of issues, very different set of challenges, very different set of opinions about how they should be solved. So I think that there's a we're missing a trick in bringing it to a very local level. And I think it's going to be the antidote to mistrust, to fear, to that rising kind of sense of them and us, etcetera, in in Ireland. I think that if we can bring communities, representative of those communities, get people in a room and realize, they're all not so bad actually at all. At this point, we got into questions from the audience, and there were some really great comments and challenges. How do you justify the cost of these things? What are the risks? If governments don't actually take on the recommendations that are produced, what can that do? Can this work even when issues are closely tied to religious and cultural identity? And there was a question about time and how long things like this take. But cost first. The German community parliament established a permanent citizens assembly. And it was David van Reibroek invited a bunch of us to come and sit down for four days to talk about how would you create a permanent citizens assembly for this community. And I remember at one point we then met with the it was the chair of the parliament who'd invited us. And we put the question to him. We said, you know, you're gonna get criticized for this. You're gonna set up a permanent citizens assembly. You know, it's an entity that will produce citizens' assemblies on specific topics two or three a year from here on out. You're gonna get criticized for the cost. And he said, well look, we set up the panel reviews all the time. We have expert panels, expert reviews. We commission all sorts of research, a lot of which just sits on on shelves and isn't listened to. But we're spending from a budget we're going to use the same access to to pay for this. So it doesn't have to cost more money. We're just using it in a different way. And meanwhile, we're engaging with our citizens. I believe that if we had started our assembly process without having a guarantee from government that they were going to act on our recommendations, the entire process might have risked feeling like a big waste of time. That's the thing. You know, they they respond to citizens' assembly reports saying, here's all the recommendations that we're going to accept. Here's when they're going to be implemented. And more importantly, here's the ones that we're not going to accept, and here's the reason why. And a great example of that is the gender equality recommendation. The citizens recommended that the taxes would be raised in order to pay for the implementation of these widespread recommendations because all of them felt they took a vote amongst themselves. I would be willing to pay more tax to see my recommendations implemented. And the government stepped back from that and said, well, actually, no. We're we're not going to accept this recommendation because if we're going to raise taxes, we've got wider considerations. You know? We might like to build a children's hospital Yeah. Or build roads, more teachers, nurses, etcetera. But but they explained it. They came into a special debate in the chamber and said, this is our answer to your recommendation. Mightn't like it, but they understood it. Yeah. You know? And interestingly and perhaps ironically, this does introduce a sense of discipline amongst the citizens because they know if they introduce wacky recommendations that, it's gonna make them look foolish and, they're not going to be implemented anyway. So the, there is a responsibility on them to come up with very real ones. You know, what what do you do when the issues are tied to your identity? So how I'm gonna choose to interpret that in relation to the abortion referendum is, for example, some of the members would have been very hard no, and nothing was going to change their mind. If they had been in the assembly for ten years, they were never gonna change their mind because they had a fundamental moral core values and identity related to being very strong Catholics, and there was no way that they were going to change their minds on that. They were in the significant minority, but there was one or two at my tables over the weekends. And what happened at those kind of round tables was these people tended to be quite quiet. You know? They didn't really contribute to the discussion very much because a no is a no. You know? It was there wasn't any opportunity to to talk about it. You know? I'm I'm not trying to dismiss what they were saying, and I can understand. You know, and it was a struggle. I felt sorry sometimes for the facilitator trying to invite them in and trying to encourage them to speak. And, you know, they're like, I just I don't agree. And I had spoken to several people who were in the maybe leaning towards no and then in the hard no. And one man in particular, I asked him afterwards. I said, how do you feel about the outcome? And he said he said, I'm not happy with the outcome. He said, but I came and I represented. He said, and I I felt that it was a very well run process. Let me give you a story from the from from the convention, the Finbar story. So the convention where they're discussing a gay marriage. This is written up in a beautiful piece written by German journalist who interviewed the principals involved, and it's been translated. It's readily available on the Internet. Finbar, who was a truck driver stroke postman, who told us and said when doing so that this was the first time he'd done it in public, that he'd been abused as a young boy and he blamed gay people for this. He kept referring to them. I think he referred them as gay people or such such language. He was very homophobic. Openly, you know, readily admitted to this. At the first weekend, we sat at the same table with, what was his name? Chris. Yeah. Chris Lyons. Chris, who was very much of the opposite including wanted to portray the fact that he was not only gay, he was going to be, relive it, you know. So he was he was dressed to kill and and, you know, amazing. Painted nails, earrings, the whole works. And and equally aggressive on the other side, but neither knew the position of the other. And Finbar, in his interview, talked about how he, at one point, thought he was going to have to get up and hit him. He felt so visceral. His hate for this person. By the end of the process, they became really good friends, but the big point was on the on the closing moment of the discussion about gay marriage, which was not the first topic that had been discussed when the microphones were going around in the plenary session. Finbar for the very first time asked for the in his he asked for the mic to stand up and make a public statement. And that's when he told the story about what had happened to him and said that he was going to vote for gay marriage. Wow. And that was, you know, that's strong ideological divide as you can guess. This is all about design, you know. All of the members have to go on a journey. They have to be willing to walk in the other person's shoes. Chris and Finbar, I still talk to them. I talk to them regularly. There was a film crew from Hollywood in town in May to film the pair of them talking about their journey. There'll be a documentary on Netflix sometime early next year capturing this journey. That moment that David described, that was the mic drop moment. That was the moment in the room where people said, actually, do you know what? Marriage equality. You know, is that we recognize you have come from a very dark place to being open to consider an alternative, you know, and I'm sure you came across this, Louise, as well. So it it it was extraordinary. I think what all of these processes do is they help to build empathy, and they help to build awareness of other, of the other's experience, of it helps to just kinda lift the lid on your own little kind of world and go, oh, you know, that's how it might be for somebody over there. I never even thought of it like that. Oh, I never thought of it like that either. So it's and that's how we build trust. Right? That's how we build relationships. It's by being able to have space to see what it's like from another perspective. And a citizens assembly, the roundtable discussions allow for that. Nothing succeeds like success. You have to start somewhere. Mhmm. You know, you can't say, well, people won't trust it, so we'll never do it. That you have to start somewhere. For our first constitutional convention, one in 40 people said yes when they were asked to be involved. You know? So knock on the door. We have a brilliant opportunity for you. You could come and spend ten weekends in in a room with 99 other people for no money, to answer some questions that the government thinks are important. You know? So they had doors slammed in their faces. And, finally, you know, the one of the, citizens who got the knock on the door was so disturbed by this preposterous notion that they rang the police and said, somebody's casing my joint, you know, because they came with an idea that was so preposterous. It's it's preposterous. It's not believable. And but nothing succeeds like success. Marriage equality, abortion, climate change. And the final thing I would say, I know I've spoken a lot, but, they, we we're always asking our citizens questions. You know, our biodiversity loss, citizens on their first day, the 100 of them arrived in. We asked them why they got involved. Why did you agree to spend what turned out to be eight weekends in a year, with 99 other people? So about a third of them said they were interested in the subject. About a third of them saw it as, a public service. My favorite third were the people who said citizens' assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done. There were a lot of lovely moments in that event, but that one was a real mic drop. Citizens assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done. Can they be how every country, every city gets hard jobs done? I think so. It's like this couple go into the therapist and and I get I guess and the therapist office would be that safe space where they can have, the tough conversations. But in the beginning, they slowly need to build this trust with the therapist that could help them back, build the trust again with each other to face these tough conversations. And I think citizens assemblies, or at least this Irish example show that it's possible and that's what we need for our democracy. Build the the trust back in a safe space where rules are clearly clear and where, conversations can happen in a respectful manner and that we're here to solve the issues. And that's our main goal. At least that's what we agree we are here for. Yeah. I think I think totally. Yeah. That's the today's space we need for democracy. That makes me think there's a lovely phrase that James Fishkin, who's a university professor at Stanford, who designed the process of America in one room, at Stanford, who designed the process of America in one room. He talks about democracy under good conditions. I wasn't sure at the beginning of this. To be honest, like, I I I wanted to be the devil's advocate. To challenge you and your beliefs. And I like that. I I like that they aren't all sane. It's just one exact type of process. But I think the principle of this approach is something that we can work, with everywhere. At the core of it, it's this understanding that citizens aren't stupid. Yeah. That they can take on the big questions. I mean, I grew up hearing that citizens are stupid. You know, in Tunisia, it's it's like what dictatorship tells you. And, the next generation started a revolution. Period. Treating people people like they don't know better can only backlash. Look at what's happening with Gen Z protests. You know, youth led movements in the streets of Serbia, Kenya, Nepal, Peru, Morocco, and Madagascar. They are asking not only for improvements to living conditions, but also for broader changes in government accountability. They're asking for equality and the fight against corruption. They are tired of of their government's negligence. They they are tired of unrealistic policies and and and the lack of economic opportunity. In Morocco, for example, a collective called Gen Z twelve I mean, 212, it's like the telephone codes for Morocco. 212. They criticize high youth unemployment, but they also talk about poor education and healthcare systems. This is happening everywhere. And and these processes could provide the way those ideas can be heard, not just rejected, leaving us collapsing into strongman leaders. I totally agree. This this about trusting citizens enough to put the time and resource into creating spaces where they can really be heard. Reversing that cycle of distrust that we seem to be in. It was really such a joy to host that event, especially in this moment in time. It made me feel genuinely hopeful. These things can work. We can save democracy. This is How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy, but know we've got serious work to do to save it. This episode was hosted by John Alexander and me, Omezi Inhifa, and produced by Joe Barrett. The studio engineer was Kristin Kabwicka. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you want to get closer, find us online at howtosavedemocracy.co, that's howtosavedemocracy.ceo, and sign up to the mailing list. How to Save Democracy is produced in partnership with The Conduits and with Urban MBA and wouldn't be possible without the kind support of our listeners who've chipped in to fund us. We've got big plans. 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"transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: I was a volunteer member of the Irish Citizens Assembly from 2016 to 2018. The randomly selected member of the public who answered a knock on my door and said yes to a few questions and then was invited to join the citizens assembly. I had no idea what I was signing up for. I just had a man at my door, and he was offering to bring me to a room every weekend in the winter with a group of adults to talk about these topics that I was curious about. It sounds like it's just any old conference, which it really is not.\n\nYou know, it's it's a group of people who've said yes to to be in a room together, to really spend time, energy, and effort to relate with each other, to listen to each other, to listen to really complex material, to try to join dots between the complex material. Like, for want of a better word, it's really a creative process to be involved in the citizens assembly because you're trying to take all of these seemingly disparate pieces of new information for me and weave them into something that then might make some sense for all of the rest of the country, that we may have something that will actually do a good service to our other citizens of the country.\n\nSpeaker 1: Welcome to How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy but know it needs to change. I'm Omezine.\n\nSpeaker 2: And I'm John. This time, we're looking in-depth at the Irish Citizens Assembly. I hosted a public event in Dublin in September 2025 with three key people. David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, who's been involved from the very beginning when the idea of creating a citizens assembly in Ireland was just that, an idea. Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant originally tasked with making it happen for real, who's played a key role ever since.\n\nAnd perhaps most importantly, Louise Caldwell, who you just heard at the beginning. One of the citizens who was randomly selected to be a participant.\n\nSpeaker 1: I have to confess that before meeting you, John, I hadn't heard about any of this sort of thing at all. Maybe the only thing I can think of is participatory budgeting and, it was implemented after the revolution in my home city, La Marsa in Tunisia. My mom came, to came home, after a city council and she brought with her, a leaflet talking about this this process. And and I was a national politician then and, I was too busy with clever stuff at the national level, and that's it. And I didn't pay attention anymore.\n\nThen I started her hearing all the stories you were sharing with me. And now this. Your guests totally got me inspired. I am fascinated by citizens assemblies. Especially Louise.\n\nThere's nothing like first hand testimony.\n\nSpeaker 0: It was a very fun process. It was a very exhausting process. It was a very inspiring process for me personally. I learned an enormous amount, not only about the topic, but about myself, about humanity, about people, how to relate, how to have conversations, how to disagree, and how to move forward even when things are very, very difficult. And it doesn't feel like any of us knew what we were doing.\n\nI'd never been involved in politics. I mean, I was interested in current affairs. I'd read the news. I'd, you know, I was a participant in society, I thought. But I hadn't never considered how decisions were made or how policy was written or how complex it can be.\n\nAnd actually, I came out at the end feeling very sorry for politicians thinking I'm I don't know how they make any decisions Mhmm. At all. Because it's it's really difficult to make good decisions, to make well informed decisions, you know, that are gonna be good for the majority of people in society. Up to date then, I suppose I've been advocating for assemblies. I've been speaking to anyone who'll listen.\n\nI've been and, you know, I suppose since then I'm on the board of a of a global organization called People Powered, which really supports practitioners. So individuals, civil society groups, civil servants, both local and national, all over the world who are working with participatory processes. Everything from citizens assemblies, mini publics, participatory budgeting, legislative theater. They're working on the ground and this, I suppose, network then allows people to share their experiences so that we can really lift up what's working and what's not working and what works in different contexts, what works in different parts of the world. That is all, you know, a volunteer role.\n\nI'm I'm just really passionate about about bringing this to as many people as possible.\n\nSpeaker 2: Isn't it just so refreshing to hear someone going from an ordinary citizen with no special interest becoming such a passionate advocate? I hear these stories all the time, by the way. I was in Norway recently when one of the randomly selected citizens in an assembly there working on the investment strategy of Norway's sovereign wealth fund. It's a whole other story. But he happened to be a social media agency director.\n\nAnd since the assembly concluded, he's now taken it on himself to make social media videos of him finding various senior politicians and forcing copies of the recommendations of the citizens assembly into their hands. But let's meet Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant, and hear a bit more about the nuts and bolts of all this.\n\nSpeaker 3: Most of people in the audience, I can see, are too young to remember the financial crash back in in 2008, 2009, 2010. And we had a a general election in 2011, and the Irish people elected a government on the basis of transformation. The old ways of doing things didn't work. We made a mess of it, and we need to try new things, you know. And this is where the germ of the idea of a citizen's assembly came along.\n\nOur constitution was 75 years old, and the government said, well, we'll create a forum where we will include randomly selected people, and some some members of parliament as well, and put them in a room together to have a look at, some of these issues to see if we can find some solutions. I was sitting at home on on my couch one evening around 11:00 at night, and my phone rang, you know. And, I I don't know about any of you, but nobody ever rings me at 11:00 at night to say they're having a good day, you know. So, I I was working in the parliament at the time. I had responsibility for communications, media broadcasting, that kind of stuff.\n\nSo I assumed that it was a newspaper editor with a story that was gonna make my life miserable with some scoop for the following day. So I nervously answered the phone. Hello? And it was Arteshuk, the prime minister. And, he said, hi, Art.\n\nI I have a job for you. We have this thing in the program for government. It's never ever going to work, but we promised we would do it. And we're a government that was elected to keep our promises, so I'd like you to do it. And I said, well, what is it?\n\nAnd he said, it's called a constitutional convention. And I said, well, what does that mean? What does it do? So he said, we're gonna put a 100 people in a room, and we're gonna ask them a whole pile. Most of them will be randomly selected.\n\nAnd, we're gonna ask them a whole pile of really hard questions about things like marriage equality or electoral system and all kinds of other things that we don't know the answer to. And at the end of that process, they're gonna tell us what they think, and we're gonna see what we're gonna do about it. And I said, yeah. That's never gonna work. You know?\n\nSo, he said, I know it's not, but we promise to do it, and we have to do it. So we we spoke about the ins and outs of how this might work. And, I said, let me see if I have you straight, Tishuk. As long as I don't kill anybody or spend any money, I can do whatever I like with this bunch of people. And he said famously, I knew you were the fella for me.\n\nYou know? So so so that's where it started. It was as simple as that. I rang my boss and said, I have to go and do a thing. I'll be back in six months, keep my seat warm.\n\nAnd I never went back to work in the parliament. But there's something going on in the world right now. Yeah. You know? Increasingly, political systems are looking for ways of including citizens in the development of policy and making better political decisions.\n\nAnd increasingly, citizens are looking to become more involved beyond electing people every five years. So in in the last two and a half years, I have been in 81 different countries talking about Ireland's experience with citizens assemblies because we are considered to be the world leaders. I mean, we have set up citizens assemblies that delivered transformational social change in this country, the abortion assembly. We delivered marriage equality. We had a citizens' assembly that delivered our climate action plan, which introduced carbon taxes without even a murmur from the public.\n\nIn France, they were setting cars on fire at the notion of carbon taxes. We had a citizen's assembly. Everybody saw how the process worked and and what had happened. People accepted it. It turned into the government's climate action plan, turned into legislation.\n\nAnd now that single citizen's assembly, which people give out about spending a million euro in running, has determined how Ireland is going to to invest €50,000,000,000 between now and 2050. The one thing I would say is that we need to stop thinking of citizens' assemblies as having a cost. They're an investment. Yeah. You know?\n\nBecause even the simple things like the abortion referendum and the marriage equality referendum, It cost us around €20,000,000 to run a referendum in this country. Is it not wise that we would spend 5% of that making sure we got the question right? These are investments, not costs. We try and make sure that every citizen's assembly is better than the one that went before us. We went from a situation where we're knocking on doors.\n\nNow we use on post our national postal service, geo directory map to select randomly select households based on where people live. So it's a big heat map of the country. And so we send a small few to Mullingar and a lot to Cork City and depending on where people live as well. We are much more sophisticated in the selection. And I'll finish on this point, perhaps.\n\nTo understand this properly, the the, there are some things about representing rep get getting Ireland in one room. Some of the stuff is easy. We've got 51 women and 49 men. We've got 28 people who live in Dublin, because 28 of our population live in Dublin. We've got 12 people between the age of 18 and 24, but we don't stop there.\n\nSo age, region, and gender is easy. We in the overall group, we need four farmers, you know, because 4% of our population are farmers. We need 11 people with a disability. We need 17 people, who aren't born in this country. And the list goes on.\n\nLayer by layer by layer, you randomly select individuals. So at the end of this process, which we call Ireland in One Room, every single person in Ireland should be able to look into that room and see themselves there. And if they don't see themselves there, they should see their opinion represented there. And the results of the abortion assembly, and I I won't spoil all of the surprise here, Louise, except to say that that assembly brought forward recommendations which shocked the government and the media to its core, went way, way beyond what was expected by the government because they were hoping for or they were expecting perhaps something a little more modest, but they they recommended a very liberal regime of women's reproductive health. They voted in the room 65, 35 in favor of this regime.\n\nWhen that question was put to the Irish people in a referendum, the result was sixty six thirty four. Think about that. First thing it proves that that room was perfectly representative of the Irish people. And more importantly, it proved that the Irish people were much more nuanced and much more sophisticated in their thinking on this issue than the political system gave them credit for. They were way, way ahead of the politicians.\n\nBehavioral economists call this the wisdom of crowds.\n\nSpeaker 2: So a true citizens assembly, capital c, capital a, has two key characteristics. It's about representation and deliberation. It's a group of people selected at random and then filtered to be representative of the wider population on all key demographics. And then given time to deliberate with one another and make recommendations and sometimes even decisions.\n\nSpeaker 1: I love this. I really love this. We seem so far from what we call today representative democracy. The current model of elected MPs where most are career politicians, and they seem so disconnected from people's realities. I mean, I was a politician.\n\nI know many people are there for the good reasons, but this kind of representation is another level. And I also really love this insight that societies are indeed ahead of their establishments. And it is difficult to measure when you think of it, you know, you have polls, surveys, studies, protests, and revolutions. But this citizens assembly is another level. They showed how advanced people are compared to politicians and and, who who who who are supposed to represent them.\n\nRight? And the more I think of it, the more incredible I think it is to be able to take a snapshot of societies, through I mean, think of it like it's society beliefs, values, and thinking in a process that ends up with passing a legislation based on those. And to the Irish politicians' credit, Right? We we we need to acknowledge that for them. They were humble.\n\nThey were smart. And they were visionary, you know, to set up the citizens assembly. And it's and it's like for them giving or sharing their power. Right? Like, they didn't see it as a threat to their power, but rather as a tool to give them authentic, legitimacy.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. And we're just starting to hear in detail about the most famous example of the Irish Citizens Assembly's work on abortion, and Louise was part of that.\n\nSpeaker 0: What's interesting is that I don't even think that we knew ourselves as the assembly members when we went to the ballot at the fifth weekend. We didn't know how far we were gonna go. Right? Because abortion is a very sensitive topic. And people might imagine that there would be sparks and fireworks with with this type of conversation, but really it was very careful.\n\nIt was very quiet, I would say, at the table. It was considered. It was respectful. There was just so much information came at us. The next three weekend got added.\n\nAnd also we had heard from all the experts and we kind of we were trying to start to make sense of all that. And then we thought, who's missing here? We're like, okay. We need to hear from people who've been affected by this. So that was the main, I suppose, feedback piece that had a fundamental change in how our assembly was run.\n\nAnd the secretariat of the assembly went away and found samples of people who had been affected by the eighth amendment in the constitution. So they found a variety of different people who'd been affected, both positively, negatively, people who'd had abortions regretted it, people who hadn't and wished they could've, people who'd had to marry in the nineteen sixties and had been miserable their entire lives because they, you know, they had an unexpected pregnancy, etcetera. So they were recorded and we all sat in the room that morning and they played the recordings of these interviews. That was very, very difficult. Many people just had their hands on then like that at the table.\n\nIt was so hard to listen to. And at the end of it, it was almost like there was nothing left to say. We kinda just looked at each other. I remember at my table and we just went, oh, for God's sake. Why do we even debate in here?\n\nThis is madness that we're that we can't just allow people to make their own decision that is in their best interest for their life, in their context, that none of us could ever possibly understand or know. And that was just everything just tipped over after that.\n\nSpeaker 3: Just to touch you, Lou Louise mentioned it, and and I think it's very important. One of the the key principles of, every citizen's assembly is that there is zero tolerance for conflict. There are very few rules in the room, but every one of those 100 citizens have to be able to walk into a room and express their opinion in a safe environment. We've had a couple of occasions where we've we've had to ask people, I think you go for a walk around the block now. Clear your head.\n\nAnd when you're prepared to be respectful, then, then we'll let you back in as well. And I think that's absolutely key. And this is the that was so important for the citizens because everyone has their own life experiences, their own opinions on on these things as well. And what we created was a safe environment in which to express those opinions. And people were much more willing to be open and honest about this knowing that there was no judgment coming from around the table.\n\nSpeaker 1: They convinced me citizens' assemblies can help solve intractable issues. When you think of it, who could have thought that a predominantly Catholic country would vote for such a progressive regime for women's reproductive health? I wanna be disabled's advocate, but your guests are so sincere and convincing.\n\nSpeaker 2: Very good. I think this is where we might bring in our idea of playing relationship counselors between humanity and democracy and how we have the tough conversations we need to have. Citizens' assemblies can play a really important role in creating the space for these conversations to happen. I think it might be helpful to contrast this process with another referendum that happened two years earlier, Brexit. I'm not really talking about the output in terms of the policy recommendation and how progressive or not it was, but I'm more talking about the outcome in terms of citizens' trust in one another, citizens' trust in politicians and in politics, and the trust of politics and politicians in citizens, actually.\n\nBecause in The UK, we seem now to think that referenda are a terrible idea, that they're inherently divisive, That they they make people hate each other and hate politicians. Mhmm. And that's not what happened in Ireland with the referendum. There, arguably as a result of the citizens assembly and despite all the same misinformation, disinformation, the country has actually come together after a referendum. Rather than there still being the division like there is in The UK between leavers and remainers, which still divides us maybe even more now than in 2016, they've come together.\n\nI really like the way the Irish political commentator, Finton O'Toole, put it in an article in The Guardian. He wrote that during the referendum campaign, because there were people like me in inverted commas on the breakfast radio and TV shows, the randomly selected citizens from the assembly, people like Louise, rather than politicians arguing with one another over people's heads. But as a result of that, this process was, he wrote, immune to the usual disinformation. And the country came together afterwards rather than pulling apart.\n\nSpeaker 1: That feels so important. I think people are really fed up of seeing politicians and experts talking at them. The fact that normal people, people just like them, were randomly selected, learned about the topic, and came up with recommendations, all in a transparent process, changes from the usual suspects. Political leaders seen as disconnected from reality, biased, working behind closed doors, and speaking a complicated language.\n\nSpeaker 2: I think that's exactly right. There's a lovely phrase that Helene Landemore, who's one of the thinkers behind all of this work, she wrote a book called Open Democracy. She has this phrase. She says, what these create is experts on top, not experts on top. That expertise is available to people, but it's not like it's doing things for people and and deciding without them.\n\nSpeaker 1: It feels like we have two systems that need to coexist. One represents old power structures established since a long time, as long as eighteen, eight eight hundred years in The UK. The first assembly was formed in the thirteenth century to approve the king's taxes. The elite, whether from power, wealth, or education, or all of the above, devising and making decisions behind closed doors. And, and, and they see their roles as maintaining stability and managing state affairs for as long as they can.\n\nAnd the other system represent new powers, you know, open structures where randomly selected citizens represent representing all levels of societies have open deliberations that could be followed by anyone who's interested in the process. These citizens return to their everyday life After their contract is achieved, so they are perceived as genuine, truly independent and honest. Citizens assemblies seem to create spaces where these systems can come together and actually trust one another and also politicians more, when you think of it, and actually build those relationships again, you know, relationship between citizens and politicians, which is so much better than what is happening in so many places, right? Where when countries go through crises, people give the benefit of the doubt to the strongmen who cut through complexity, use binary devisive, but a simple language that can be understand by anyone.\n\nSpeaker 2: Right. And I worry that the mood we have in many places today is that we should never do referenda. We should never ask citizens the question because it will inevitably go wrong. But what the Irish process shows, I think, is it's much more about how you do them rather than whether. And what's really important to know is that the Citizens Assembly wasn't created against the backdrop of political or social unity.\n\nIn fact, its origins are in 02/2009 during the great financial crisis. That hit Ireland really hard, and trust in government at the time was actually below 10%. How did this space where the relationships between citizens and politicians and between citizens and each other has got so much better? How and why did it get created in the first place? This is where David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, came into the conversation.\n\nSpeaker 4: So I write a textbook on electoral systems, a real page turner. And, in 2003, I got this email from this buddy of mine from University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Ken Carty, saying, hey David, do you want to come to Vancouver for a few days to talk about, electoral systems to a bunch of citizens? I said, yeah. You'll find me out to find no problem. I'll I'll go there.\n\nBut I didn't know what it was all about. And then he explained, it's this thing we're trying. It's called a citizens assembly. So it became it was the British Columbia citizens assembly, the world's first citizens assembly that looked at the electoral system, and they used my textbook as the main text, and I was an expert witness. I had autographs to sign.\n\nI had a 160 citizens in a snaking robe, you sign, you know, photographs, a whole shooting match. In Ontario, they did the same thing a few months later. In The Netherlands, they did the same. They had three citizens assemblies all on electoral systems. So I had never heard of a citizens assembly.\n\nI didn't even know the word sortition. I knew nothing about deliberation. I was an electoral systems person, but I'd actually witnessed one of these things. You know, if if any of you have ever had the opportunity to go to one go, just to stand in the room and soak up the atmosphere, it's one of the most incredible experiences of your life. So anyway, flash forward 2008, 2009, Art was telling the story of the crash.\n\nMajor crash. And everyone was very angry. All the indicators went down. The economy went down. The political indicators went down.\n\nPeople were protesting on the streets, and different groups started to campaign for change. And it's hard to believe it, but in the mix were political scientists. We rolled up our sleeves, came out of the ivory tower, you name whatever metaphor you want, and pushed an agenda of political reform. We're talking about all sorts of reforms that should be introduced in terms, you know, gender quotas and elect parliamentary reform, all of that sort of stuff. But particularly, we talked about citizens assemblies.\n\nWe were writing op eds and not getting listened to, getting shouted at, being told you ignorant academics. We have a citizens assembly, it's Dail Eireann. Would you trust your citizens to talk about complex things? No. And, you know, you talk about British Columbia, but Canadians are different.\n\nHere in Ireland, it would never work. These three things. We have a citizens assembly, citizens are stupid and it wouldn't work here. And we kept on pushing, we went on the airwaves, weren't getting very far. And then out of the blue, I got this email one day from an organization called Atlantic Philanthropies.\n\nLong gone now, and so not known to many of the people in the room, but it was set up by an American, an Irish American, Chuck Feeney, whose ambition in life He was listed as the twentieth richest man in the world in the nineteen eighties. And his mission in life was to give away every last dime of his money before he died, and he did. So he had all sorts of just good causes that he supported in Ireland and other countries. And they approached me and said, the Atlantic are famous for this. They don't you don't approach them, they approach you.\n\nSo I was told, go in and have the meeting with them. So I sat down with my mates and we wrote up some plans and I had in my back pocket, literally. Went into the meeting, just, you know, they said at a certain point, do you ever think about running one of these things? I said, you know, if you got a $100 to spare, we could do this as an experiment for you. They looked at me, they shook their heads, they said, you're not serious.\n\nThis isn't ambitious enough. Why don't you reflect on this conversation, go away and think about it? So as an academic applying for funding, I had this bizarre situation where I had three meetings with these guys for them to say the money I was asking for wasn't enough. Eventually, we settled on €650,000, which is a substantial amount in 2010, to establish an organization. So we set up an organization called We the Citizens.\n\nWe had the then chair of the then head of the Irish theater, Firth Mac O'Neill, who became our front of office person. We had professional administrators running the show. We had an office in the center of Dublin, and then four nearly political scientists in the background doing all the experimental work. And we ran road shows all around the country to drum up interest in deliberative processes and to also get a sense of what the people of Ireland wanted to talk about. And this culminated in Ireland's first citizens assembly, the We the Citizens Assembly in 2011.\n\nWe were experimenting on a 100 citizens to map how the impact of being involved in this affected them, which produces produced data. And then we had a series of meetings with all the party leaders, produced our report and said, look, it works. There's a lot of serendipity in the story, the serendipity of the crash. Mhmm. The serendipity that I accidentally discovered citizens assemblies.\n\nThe serendipity of the politicians being open and receptive to the idea of political reform in a time when they had no money to spend on the economy. So in a sense, we we were pushing at an open door, and what happened is the the newly elected government agreed with the idea, set it up, and then the next step in serendipity was that they insisted that a third of the members of the convention that they were now going to set up, that Art was talking about, should be members of parliament. We said to them, that's madness. That will not work. The politicians will take over.\n\nThey'll dominate and everything. And we were proven wrong. It really worked. The final bit of serendipity is they appointed Art, who as you've just heard used to work in the parliament. So he knew he knew the species of the politicians and they knew him.\n\nSo there was no better person to keep control of this very unusual mix of citizens and politicians. And my final point here, which is of relevance, is what you then produced were 33 politicians who not only knew about citizens' assemblies, they'd been members of a citizens' assembly. And to this day, we have party leaders. Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein, the most recent leader of the Social Democrats, the recent speaker or or chairperson of the Dail, people who are government ministers, had been members of these things. Some of them had been critics of it beforehand and they were converted.\n\nAnd so this real story as to why Ireland has had so many of them ever since, the big part of that is the fact that we converted our politicians by accident in terms of the design.\n\nSpeaker 3: It it is one of the big features because it was only the first senate assembly, the constitutional convention, which had politicians. The five since were were 100 members, you know. And but David David is absolutely right. You know, the the first meeting of the citizens and the politicians was very, very difficult, you know, because the citizens were saying, we're not gonna be pushed around now. We want to have our say.\n\nAnd and, and and one politician took and I won't say who it is because he's a he's a minister now, so I I won't embarrass him. But he took the microphone on four occasions at the first meeting to say how important it was that the citizens had a voice, you know. Yeah. And the irony of that went over his head. What it did create when the reports went back from the citizens assembly to the parliament for consideration, the the recommendations to reduce the voting age for marriage equality.\n\nUnlike many of the other citizens assemblies, including British Columbia, there was an ownership in the room. Yeah. You know, they said, actually, no. We were there. We were in the room.\n\nWe know this works. This was fair. This was a brilliant process. When Ken Carty in British Columbia sent his report to the parliament, they left it on a shelf for two years and said, who are these people? What are they doing?\n\nWho asked them to do that? And it just simply didn't work. That lovely sense of ownership. So it didn't require politicians being involved in the future because there has been continuing membership of that. There are still members of the Iraqtus right now who remember being in that room, staying up till 2AM, speaking to ordinary citizens, and that sense of family that was created about this shared job of work of which they are very proud.\n\nSpeaker 4: This is when there was this intense anger on the streets. You know, people lost their jobs, and the public sector had lost pay. It there were questions at one point about whether there might be a run on on, the, you know, the ATMs and everything. Things were really, really bad. And, we we certainly fetch you know, had arrived in Kilkenny and put out leaflets and went on local radio, our our our team, saying, you want to come for a bowl of soup and talk about the future of Ireland?\n\nYou know, come to this hotel at this time of night and and be ready to to talk. And I remember we were so nervous whether anyone was gonna turn up, but also what kind of mood we're gonna get into the room. And I remember Fiac McNeil, as I said, our chair, who put it, I thought, so well. He was interviewed later on about how to how to gone because a 150 people turned up, had their bowl of soup, had a perfectly civil conversation in a deliberative way with facilitators and everything. No anger.\n\nAnd as he said, what happened is that people park the anger at the door. Every other event was of the same kind. They knew they were coming here to have a civil conversation, which is what you want with good deliberation. They instinctively I'm not saying it was an Irish thing. It was just citizens get this.\n\nSpeaker 0: I think it's Martin Luther King. I'm gonna paraphrase him poorly here, but he says that is it that riot is the is the language of the oppressed or something like that. Basically, you know, that the anger, I think, stems from not having a voice and not having a channel through which to speak what what's going on for you, what you're afraid of, what you're worried about, what you know, and I think that the a citizens assembly process opens up this space to go, what are we gonna do about this?\n\nSpeaker 3: And just on that issue, what you said about the two way nature of trust, I mean, strikes a chord with me because the political system, when they received the reports from the citizens, they trusted the process. They it was designed properly. It was thorough. People gave it their all, etcetera. But interestingly, on the first assembly where the politicians were involved, there was a lot of anger at politicians at the first meeting.\n\nAt the last meeting, it was hugs and kisses, and it's beautiful. But the essence of that was that the citizens came out and said, do you know politicians aren't bad people? You know? They know an awful lot of stuff about an awful lot of stuff that we don't give them much credit for, and they work damn hard. You know?\n\nAnd that sense of trust because they got to be close-up to the political system was a very important feature, again, of that first assembly.\n\nSpeaker 2: I think we're really getting into why citizens assemblies work now. This is a kind of a therapy space for politics to go to. It's like if there are standing citizens assemblies everywhere, then the relationships between humanity and democracy might be better. Just like if everyone had access to really good therapy, the relationships between humans and humans might be better.\n\nSpeaker 1: Totally. I agree. These processes seem to make it possible to have a respectful dialogue where there are rules to continue that dialogue, and at the same time have experts come and inform you about issues that you may not be familiar with. And you can have interventions that help you understand a topic, whether confirm or bring a new light to your previous thoughts. And when people come together and work together on topics they care about, and there is an environment that allows for genuine but also very personal conversations.\n\nI think there is a magic that happens. It brings the personal and the political together, and that I think is what we need right now. I think this is a human trait because always we are wondering, is this replicable? Is the citizen assembly in Ireland only successful because it's Ireland? Right?\n\nBut when you you get to speak and have deep conversations, when you work together for quite some time on difficult issues, there is empathy that is created. And because sometimes maybe you will discover that there is one person who who wants to kick you because in this representation sort of exercise you can have anyone. Right? Yeah. And then that's what we usually afraid of.\n\nAre we going to have our adversary or our our enemy with us there? I mean, here we're not trying to be blind to racist bigotry or fascism, but at the same time, I believe these processes make these violent ideologies, sentiments stand out, you know, and when we see that they are a minority in a group. I, I fundamentally believe in, in humanity and universal values. And I think when you, even when you have this sortition kind of exercise, you will see that humanity is, is fundamentally, you know, not violent against each other. And I think in these kind of dynamics, we really see how small and not representative, these these awful ideologies are.\n\nAnd sometimes you have magic happen when when these people can see maybe that they were wrong all the time. Maybe they will understand that there are different life experiences and that there are different opinions and that's okay. We don't need to hate and kill each other because of that. And what I'm saying, I'm very influenced by my friend Diya Khan. She's a filmmaker.\n\nShe filmed this incredible documentary called Meeting the Enemy. And, you know, Diya is a brown Muslim woman. The way she puts it is she, she always experienced racism, right? And, and, and hate from both communities. You know, she grew up in, in, in Norway and she lived in The UK.\n\nAnd she had she faced hate both from her brown community as she puts it, and from her white community. Like, and, and because she was raised as a musician and they were saying the the brown community would say, okay, Muslim woman shouldn't be using their voice, shouldn't be singing, shouldn't be artists. And the white supremacists that she would they they would spit at her, when she was Wow. A kid, and it would tell her go back to your country. But, when and she received death threats in The UK when when she was talking about how societies need to be diverse and multiple.\n\nAnd, she said that the the the British police told her we cannot protect you. Our advice to you is to stay away from windows. But, she she's crazy. She was crazy enough to go say, okay, then, I'm going to face my enemies. I'm gonna go and face white supremacists in The US.\n\nAnd she went to march with white supremacists in Charlottesville back in '26 2017. She actually, no. She didn't march with them. She walked with them and she filmed the marshes. And and there was this incredible story where after meeting with her, you know, she's been filming the the the founders of these neo Nazi groups.\n\nThey've been transformed with talking to her and having them, you know, look at her pictures as a kid, going into her first marches, anti fascist, anti racist, and telling them, do you want to deport me? As a Muslim and brown woman, I represent the people you want to deport. And they said, no, you've become our friend. And there is this incredible, incredible transformation that at the end of the documentary, we two of them drop out of these movements and say we've been wrong. And now she, she goes with, with them to do talks and to speak about how this relationship that, that that was built between them, this new friendship, you know, is is really the antidote to fascism and the antidote to hatred.\n\nSpeaker 2: I love that so much. It's it's such a powerful example. And I didn't know you were friends with Diya Khan. She's quite an inspiration. What I think is so exciting about some of these processes is that they actually create that sort of space deliberately and on much larger kind of scale.\n\nSo it doesn't require kind of the individual heroism of someone like Dia. Right? And and I wanna tell you about an example of famous process that I love the story of. It was called America in one room. Happened in 2019 during the first Trump administration.\n\nAnd it was actually a really polarizing moment. So the this whole thing took place over four days. It was a it was a process called deliberative polling. So it's slightly different to a citizen's assembly because they're not coming up with recommendations. They're they're taking ideas and and policy ideas and so on and and responding to them, but only after having had a chance to deliberate about them with one another.\n\nSo rather than just standard polling, you just go, do you agree with this or not? Deliberative polling, they do that first, and then you have a chance to talk to people who are not like you about it. And then they ask you again, and you see what changes.\n\nSpeaker 1: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: And so in this, they had they had, 530 American citizens, representative of The US population on all key demographics, brought together in a conference suite in Dallas for four days. And the day after, the final day of this, was the day that Nancy Pelosi launched the the impeachment proceedings against Trump. So just to remind us that, like, this was already a really polarized time. So the backdrop of this was not, like, not an easy moment to do this process. But what happened and I think this draws out a lot of what you were saying.\n\nLike, these randomly selected 530 people, because they're representative of the population, you had 30 people in there who explicitly self identified as extremely conservative. And you had another 30 who explicitly self identified as extremely liberal. And that the rumor goes that the whole process nearly didn't go ahead because the insurance company tried to charge them too much to do the thing because they thought they were gonna kill each other. Right? Like, there's such fear of this.\n\nBut in the event, two things happened that you've just kind of alluded to, but I can draw out a little bit more. And the first is because out of 530, actually 60 holding fairly extreme views, very extreme views, isn't a very high percentage. Right? It's like 10 or 11%. And and in social media world, where that's the only forum for conversation, those people dominate the conversation and make us all think that everyone is extreme.\n\nAnd then the 80% in the middle shut up and 90% hide. And and whereas in this representative sampling, in a in deliberative polling or a citizen's assembly, they're only 10%. And it becomes clear that they are not the majority. So that's the first thing that happens. The second thing is that and I think you're alluding to this with the example of Diya really.\n\nLike, the the nature of the conversation, the the the encounter with people of different backgrounds is that that in itself is the best cure for polarization. Right? And in the literature, there's there's on polarization, there are two kinds. There's there's issue polarization where I disagree with Omicine about this issue, which very rarely happens.\n\nSpeaker 1: Should happen more often.\n\nSpeaker 2: And then and then there's affective polarization where because I don't just disagree with you, like affective polarization is I think you're evil. Mhmm. And the really fascinating thing in this process was that affective polarization went through the floor. Like, and not just to the extent that that it went through the floor in the in the moment. Like, there was a follow-up survey a year later, which basically found that that these 530 people, the vast majority of them, had actually become kind of depolarizers in their own communities.\n\nMaybe not to the extent of deer, but but they were they were actively seeking to to build bridges in their own communities. So I think this double impact of of reducing the noise from the extremes by by by making clear that they are not the majority and then creating the environment for this contact and this transformation are the two kind of core things that these processes do. David actually tells a story that really brings home how this happens. It's a really beautiful and powerful story, which we'll hear in a moment. I think we need to get ourselves ready for a final conversation about just how replicable this is, like how far things like citizens assemblies can go to help save democracy.\n\nSo we're gonna need to start challenging things a bit. I started this at the event by raising the fact that while Ireland's assembly had been very active and up until 2022, there actually hasn't been so much in the last couple of years. Here's Art again.\n\nSpeaker 3: A significant feature of all of those was at the program for government stage. It's when coalition parties sit down together and say, what do we think about what are we going to agree that we're going to do in the next term of five years? For the first three or four of those governments from, from 2011, there were always issues that they couldn't agree on. And these tended to be some of these intractable political problems, things like climate change, things like abortion, marriage equality, illegal drug use, biodiversity loss, local government, and that kind of thing. The most recent government, as you you may know, is a follow on government from minus the Green Party.\n\nAnd they they have been working with each other for so long, when they sat down at the parliament for government, they found, well, actually, Gerald, we have solutions to most of these problems in mind already. We have many, many problems in this country. If you open up any newspaper, you'll see housing and cost of living and health care and all of these things. But the government has a plan for all of these issues. And it probably wouldn't be the best use of the citizens assembly to say, well, actually, will you just go and and have a look at housing for us?\n\nWe have a plan, but correct our homework, RC. If you come up with something different, they are all they're already on a path. And David is a real expert on this. Unlike countries who have gone the institutionalization route where they have permanent citizens' assemblies who are generating problems for themselves to solve. Ours is a very top down system.\n\nSpeaker 4: I mean, we do have big problems. We like every society, we have huge problems. We we are facing the same threats to our democracy that every other country is. We might be a little bit behind, but we're catching up fast. And, you know, some of us have been urgently, ever increasingly urgently calling for further deliberative processes to address big questions that are coming down the tracks.\n\nYou know, what kind of Ireland do we want for the twenty first century? How do we deal with the issue of migration in a in a civilized way? How do we deal with racism? What are the correct solutions? You know, and and more and more of those.\n\nSo we definitely have the big problems. A lot of what Art says, I agree with. I mean, you know, we have these two parties that are now in coalition that, much as they might deny it, are quite comfortable. Originally, they were the same party back in the nineteen twenties. So, you know, that's maybe where they end up eventually.\n\nBut the difference is there's no small party in the mix that are, you know, put a little bit of dirt in the in the in the machinery.\n\nSpeaker 2: Gritting the oyster.\n\nSpeaker 4: Yeah. Gritting the oyster, whatever it is. And it's it's from there that you get the potential perhaps for a citizens' assembly to take root. That doesn't help. We lost two two referendums that were defeated last year on care and family.\n\nOne of them had the worst referendum defeat in the history of our referendums. They both followed the gender citizens assembly. They were seen by the government as recommendations of the citizens assembly. It's a more long winded story, which is that the wording that was presented was not the wording that was recommended. It was a big defeat, but nevertheless, there's a sort of sense among some in the political class perhaps that it didn't work on this occasion.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. The language changed, and it became known that the language had changed. And I think people were confused by what had happened. And I think where you have confusion, people just reject.\n\nSpeaker 4: I know And I mean, we don't know We have no way of knowing why it failed. And it will have failed They will have failed for multiple reasons. But the language changed, and it's more than It's it's there's more nuance to it. It's not just the language recommended by the Citizens Assembly. The same language was recommended by the special parliamentary committee that was established to report on the Citizens Assembly, which it was what happened in the abortion case.\n\nSo citizens assembly, Parl special par all party parliamentary committee recommended the language of the citizens assembly. Then it took a year before the government finally came word forward with wording, which was so watered down that it didn't reflect what was going on. One final thing on this, which is why I think these referendums are significant, is because the last government in its program for government had recommended one more citizens assembly on educational reform. And all the people in this sector were beefing up for it, and a plan and position paper is ready. There was going to be a citizens assembly on educational reform.\n\nThe government ran out of time. The new government that was elected in its program for government is now proposing to establish a forum on education. The citizens' assembly is not being used for this particular purpose. So so they've dropped it. As Art said, it could come back again in the future, but certainly this government has has gone cold on it.\n\nSpeaker 3: You would have to ask yourself, was it the most suitable subject for our citizens assembly? We did biodiversity loss. You know, how do we solve the biodiversity loss crisis? And that was as big a subject as I would ever hope to have to do again. It was enormous, and it was almost too much for the citizens to cope with.\n\nEducation, when you think of preschool, primary, secondary, third level, lifelong education, big deal with groups facing educational barriers, etcetera. The first assembly that they ran in Scotland, you'll remember this one. John, what kind of Scotland do you want to live in? Some things are just too big to be answered because the only subjects that should be given to a citizens assembly are meaty policy issues where you have multiple possible options. The Citizens Assembly in Scotland came back with, we'd like, better education, less crime, more equality, houses for everyone, health care, la la la.\n\nNo good. No use at at all to any government, and they have learned their lessons. And at the other end, binary questions don't suit either. You know? So, the our first constitutional convention looked at the length of the presidential term, which is relevant now.\n\nYou know? So should it be reduced from seven years to five years? And our citizens said, well, no. We should keep it at seven years because every president should get the opportunity to serve over two governments. You know, so two different governments.\n\nAnd and that was fair enough. But they went off to make recommendations on the nomination process, campaign funding limits, the age of candidacy for the presidency, etcetera. There is no such thing as a binary question for a group of 100 people.\n\nSpeaker 0: So I think we've gotten stuck in this idea that it has to be national and it has to be a huge problem. You know, there's a local government system in Ireland that is ripe for citizens assemblies, mini publics, for deeper, more meaningful consultation and participation. Like, I even see in my own council, and I I've received the same old, you know, we're looking for your participation in this process, public engagement. It's they've already decided everything, and they want me just to kind of I don't know what they want me to do, to be honest. I'm not sure what I'm asked to do, so I end up doing nothing, because I go, well, it's already decided.\n\nYou know, there's there's there's an opportunity, I think, for super local things, and I think this is the antidote to an awful lot of the problems that we see in communities that are very specific to particular communities. You know, if you come to my local community, I live in rural Mead. You know, if you go to Phibbsboro where I used to live, very different set of issues, very different set of challenges, very different set of opinions about how they should be solved. So I think that there's a we're missing a trick in bringing it to a very local level. And I think it's going to be the antidote to mistrust, to fear, to that rising kind of sense of them and us, etcetera, in in Ireland.\n\nI think that if we can bring communities, representative of those communities, get people in a room and realize, they're all not so bad actually at all.\n\nSpeaker 2: At this point, we got into questions from the audience, and there were some really great comments and challenges. How do you justify the cost of these things? What are the risks? If governments don't actually take on the recommendations that are produced, what can that do? Can this work even when issues are closely tied to religious and cultural identity?\n\nAnd there was a question about time and how long things like this take. But cost first.\n\nSpeaker 4: The German community parliament established a permanent citizens assembly. And it was David van Reibroek invited a bunch of us to come and sit down for four days to talk about how would you create a permanent citizens assembly for this community. And I remember at one point we then met with the it was the chair of the parliament who'd invited us. And we put the question to him. We said, you know, you're gonna get criticized for this.\n\nYou're gonna set up a permanent citizens assembly. You know, it's an entity that will produce citizens' assemblies on specific topics two or three a year from here on out. You're gonna get criticized for the cost. And he said, well look, we set up the panel reviews all the time. We have expert panels, expert reviews.\n\nWe commission all sorts of research, a lot of which just sits on on shelves and isn't listened to. But we're spending from a budget we're going to use the same access to to pay for this. So it doesn't have to cost more money. We're just using it in a different way. And meanwhile, we're engaging with our citizens.\n\nSpeaker 0: I believe that if we had started our assembly process without having a guarantee from government that they were going to act on our recommendations, the entire process might have risked feeling like a big waste of time.\n\nSpeaker 3: That's the thing. You know, they they respond to citizens' assembly reports saying, here's all the recommendations that we're going to accept. Here's when they're going to be implemented. And more importantly, here's the ones that we're not going to accept, and here's the reason why. And a great example of that is the gender equality recommendation.\n\nThe citizens recommended that the taxes would be raised in order to pay for the implementation of these widespread recommendations because all of them felt they took a vote amongst themselves. I would be willing to pay more tax to see my recommendations implemented. And the government stepped back from that and said, well, actually, no. We're we're not going to accept this recommendation because if we're going to raise taxes, we've got wider considerations. You know?\n\nWe might like to build a children's hospital Yeah. Or build roads, more teachers, nurses, etcetera. But but they explained it. They came into a special debate in the chamber and said, this is our answer to your recommendation. Mightn't like it, but they understood it.\n\nYeah. You know? And interestingly and perhaps ironically, this does introduce a sense of discipline amongst the citizens because they know if they introduce wacky recommendations that, it's gonna make them look foolish and, they're not going to be implemented anyway. So the, there is a responsibility on them to come up with very real ones.\n\nSpeaker 0: You know, what what do you do when the issues are tied to your identity? So how I'm gonna choose to interpret that in relation to the abortion referendum is, for example, some of the members would have been very hard no, and nothing was going to change their mind. If they had been in the assembly for ten years, they were never gonna change their mind because they had a fundamental moral core values and identity related to being very strong Catholics, and there was no way that they were going to change their minds on that. They were in the significant minority, but there was one or two at my tables over the weekends. And what happened at those kind of round tables was these people tended to be quite quiet.\n\nYou know? They didn't really contribute to the discussion very much because a no is a no. You know? It was there wasn't any opportunity to to talk about it. You know?\n\nI'm I'm not trying to dismiss what they were saying, and I can understand. You know, and it was a struggle. I felt sorry sometimes for the facilitator trying to invite them in and trying to encourage them to speak. And, you know, they're like, I just I don't agree. And I had spoken to several people who were in the maybe leaning towards no and then in the hard no.\n\nAnd one man in particular, I asked him afterwards. I said, how do you feel about the outcome? And he said he said, I'm not happy with the outcome. He said, but I came and I represented. He said, and I I felt that it was a very well run process.\n\nSpeaker 4: Let me give you a story from the from from the convention, the Finbar story. So the convention where they're discussing a gay marriage. This is written up in a beautiful piece written by German journalist who interviewed the principals involved, and it's been translated. It's readily available on the Internet. Finbar, who was a truck driver stroke postman, who told us and said when doing so that this was the first time he'd done it in public, that he'd been abused as a young boy and he blamed gay people for this.\n\nHe kept referring to them. I think he referred them as gay people or such such language. He was very homophobic. Openly, you know, readily admitted to this. At the first weekend, we sat at the same table with, what was his name?\n\nSpeaker 3: Chris. Yeah. Chris Lyons.\n\nSpeaker 4: Chris, who was very much of the opposite including wanted to portray the fact that he was not only gay, he was going to be, relive it, you know. So he was he was dressed to kill and and, you know, amazing.\n\nSpeaker 3: Painted nails, earrings, the whole works.\n\nSpeaker 4: And and equally aggressive on the other side, but neither knew the position of the other. And Finbar, in his interview, talked about how he, at one point, thought he was going to have to get up and hit him. He felt so visceral. His hate for this person. By the end of the process, they became really good friends, but the big point was on the on the closing moment of the discussion about gay marriage, which was not the first topic that had been discussed when the microphones were going around in the plenary session.\n\nFinbar for the very first time asked for the in his he asked for the mic to stand up and make a public statement. And that's when he told the story about what had happened to him and said that he was going to vote for gay marriage.\n\nSpeaker 2: Wow.\n\nSpeaker 4: And that was, you know, that's strong ideological divide as you can guess.\n\nSpeaker 3: This is all about design, you know. All of the members have to go on a journey. They have to be willing to walk in the other person's shoes. Chris and Finbar, I still talk to them. I talk to them regularly.\n\nThere was a film crew from Hollywood in town in May to film the pair of them talking about their journey. There'll be a documentary on Netflix sometime early next year capturing this journey. That moment that David described, that was the mic drop moment. That was the moment in the room where people said, actually, do you know what? Marriage equality.\n\nYou know, is that we recognize you have come from a very dark place to being open to consider an alternative, you know, and I'm sure you came across this, Louise, as well. So it it it was extraordinary.\n\nSpeaker 1: I think what all\n\nSpeaker 0: of these processes do is they help to build empathy, and they help to build awareness of other, of the other's experience, of it helps to just kinda lift the lid on your own little kind of world and go, oh, you know, that's how it might be for somebody over there. I never even thought of it like that. Oh, I never thought of it like that either. So it's and that's how we build trust. Right?\n\nThat's how we build relationships. It's by being able to have space to see what it's like from another perspective. And a citizens assembly, the roundtable discussions allow for that.\n\nSpeaker 3: Nothing succeeds like success. You have to start somewhere. Mhmm. You know, you can't say, well, people won't trust it, so we'll never do it. That you have to start somewhere.\n\nFor our first constitutional convention, one in 40 people said yes when they were asked to be involved. You know? So knock on the door. We have a brilliant opportunity for you. You could come and spend ten weekends in in a room with 99 other people for no money, to answer some questions that the government thinks are important.\n\nYou know? So they had doors slammed in their faces. And, finally, you know, the one of the, citizens who got the knock on the door was so disturbed by this preposterous notion that they rang the police and said, somebody's casing my joint, you know, because they came with an idea that was so preposterous. It's it's preposterous. It's not believable.\n\nAnd but nothing succeeds like success. Marriage equality, abortion, climate change. And the final thing I would say, I know I've spoken a lot, but, they, we we're always asking our citizens questions. You know, our biodiversity loss, citizens on their first day, the 100 of them arrived in. We asked them why they got involved.\n\nWhy did you agree to spend what turned out to be eight weekends in a year, with 99 other people? So about a third of them said they were interested in the subject. About a third of them saw it as, a public service. My favorite third were the people who said citizens' assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done.\n\nSpeaker 2: There were a lot of lovely moments in that event, but that one was a real mic drop. Citizens assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done. Can they be how every country, every city gets hard jobs done?\n\nSpeaker 1: I think so. It's like this couple go into the therapist and and I get I guess and the therapist office would be that safe space where they can have, the tough conversations. But in the beginning, they slowly need to build this trust with the therapist that could help them back, build the trust again with each other to face these tough conversations. And I think citizens assemblies, or at least this Irish example show that it's possible and that's what we need for our democracy. Build the the trust back in a safe space where rules are clearly clear and where, conversations can happen in a respectful manner and that we're here to solve the issues.\n\nAnd that's our main goal. At least that's what we agree we are here for. Yeah. I think I think totally. Yeah.\n\nThat's the today's space we need for democracy.\n\nSpeaker 2: That makes me think there's a lovely phrase that James Fishkin, who's a university professor at Stanford, who designed the process of America in one room, at Stanford, who designed the process of America in one room. He talks about democracy under good conditions.\n\nSpeaker 1: I wasn't sure at the beginning of this. To be honest, like, I I I wanted to be the devil's advocate. To challenge you and your beliefs. And I like that. I I like that they aren't all sane.\n\nIt's just one exact type of process. But I think the principle of this approach is something that we can work, with everywhere. At the core of it, it's this understanding that citizens aren't stupid. Yeah. That they can take on the big questions.\n\nI mean, I grew up hearing that citizens are stupid. You know, in Tunisia, it's it's like what dictatorship tells you. And, the next generation started a revolution. Period. Treating people people like they don't know better can only backlash.\n\nLook at what's happening with Gen Z protests. You know, youth led movements in the streets of Serbia, Kenya, Nepal, Peru, Morocco, and Madagascar. They are asking not only for improvements to living conditions, but also for broader changes in government accountability. They're asking for equality and the fight against corruption. They are tired of of their government's negligence.\n\nThey they are tired of unrealistic policies and and and the lack of economic opportunity. In Morocco, for example, a collective called Gen Z twelve I mean, 212, it's like the telephone codes for Morocco. 212. They criticize high youth unemployment, but they also talk about poor education and healthcare systems. This is happening everywhere.\n\nAnd and these processes could provide the way those ideas can be heard, not just rejected, leaving us collapsing into strongman leaders.\n\nSpeaker 2: I totally agree. This this about trusting citizens enough to put the time and resource into creating spaces where they can really be heard. Reversing that cycle of distrust that we seem to be in. It was really such a joy to host that event, especially in this moment in time. It made me feel genuinely hopeful.\n\nThese things can work. We can save democracy.\n\nSpeaker 1: This is How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy, but know we've got serious work to do to save it. This episode was hosted by John Alexander and me, Omezi Inhifa, and produced by Joe Barrett. The studio engineer was Kristin Kabwicka.\n\nSpeaker 2: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you want to get closer, find us online at howtosavedemocracy.co, that's howtosavedemocracy.ceo, and sign up to the mailing list. How to Save Democracy is produced in partnership with The Conduits and with Urban MBA and wouldn't be possible without the kind support of our listeners who've chipped in to fund us. We've got big plans. So if you can join them and chip in to help us make them happen, we'd love to have you on board.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "I was a volunteer member of the Irish Citizens Assembly from 2016 to 2018.", "start": 3.52, "end": 9.38 }, { "text": "The randomly selected member of the public who answered a knock on my door and said yes to a few questions and then was invited to join the citizens assembly.", "start": 9.599999, "end": 19.205 }, { "text": "I had no idea what I was signing up for.", "start": 19.345001, "end": 21.365 }, { "text": "I just had a man at my door, and he was offering to bring me to a room every weekend in the winter with a group of adults to talk about these topics that I was curious about.", "start": 21.425, "end": 32.29 }, { "text": "It sounds like it's just any old conference, which it really is not.", "start": 32.510002, "end": 36.91 } ], "start": 3.52, "end": 36.91, "num_words": 105.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, it's it's a group of people who've said yes to to be in a room together, to really spend time, energy, and effort to relate with each other, to listen to each other, to listen to really complex material, to try to join dots between the complex material.", "start": 36.91, "end": 55.004997 }, { "text": "Like, for want of a better word, it's really a creative process to be involved in the citizens assembly because you're trying to take all of these seemingly disparate pieces of new information for me and weave them into something that then might make some sense for all of the rest of the country, that we may have something that will actually do a good service to our other citizens of the country.", "start": 55.004997, "end": 76.825 } ], "start": 36.91, "end": 76.825, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy but know it needs to change.", "start": 79.845, "end": 86.265 }, { "text": "I'm Omezine.", "start": 86.965, "end": 87.865 } ], "start": 79.845, "end": 87.865, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I'm John.", "start": 88.38, "end": 89.28 }, { "text": "This time, we're looking in-depth at the Irish Citizens Assembly.", "start": 89.899994, "end": 93.36 }, { "text": "I hosted a public event in Dublin in September 2025 with three key people.", "start": 93.82, "end": 98.32 }, { "text": "David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, who's been involved from the very beginning when the idea of creating a citizens assembly in Ireland was just that, an idea.", "start": 98.619995, "end": 108.215004 }, { "text": "Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant originally tasked with making it happen for real, who's played a key role ever since.", "start": 108.915, "end": 115.175 } ], "start": 88.38, "end": 115.175, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And perhaps most importantly, Louise Caldwell, who you just heard at the beginning.", "start": 115.450005, "end": 119.63 }, { "text": "One of the citizens who was randomly selected to be a participant.", "start": 119.770004, "end": 122.91 } ], "start": 115.450005, "end": 122.91, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I have to confess that before meeting you, John, I hadn't heard about any of this sort of thing at all.", "start": 123.69, "end": 129.855 }, { "text": "Maybe the only thing I can think of is participatory budgeting and, it was implemented after the revolution in my home city, La Marsa in Tunisia.", "start": 130.095, "end": 139.955 }, { "text": "My mom came, to came home, after a city council and she brought with her, a leaflet talking about this this process.", "start": 140.655, "end": 150.4 }, { "text": "And and I was a national politician then and, I was too busy with clever stuff at the national level, and that's it.", "start": 150.46, "end": 159.435 }, { "text": "And I didn't pay attention anymore.", "start": 159.675, "end": 161.535 } ], "start": 123.69, "end": 161.535, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Then I started her hearing all the stories you were sharing with me.", "start": 161.595, "end": 165.61499 }, { "text": "And now this.", "start": 165.675, "end": 166.735 }, { "text": "Your guests totally got me inspired.", "start": 167.19499, "end": 169.215 }, { "text": "I am fascinated by citizens assemblies.", "start": 170.075, "end": 172.175 }, { "text": "Especially Louise.", "start": 173.58, "end": 174.56 } ], "start": 161.595, "end": 174.56, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There's nothing like first hand testimony.", "start": 174.94, "end": 176.95999 } ], "start": 174.94, "end": 176.95999, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It was a very fun process.", "start": 179.9, "end": 181.44 }, { "text": "It was a very exhausting process.", "start": 181.73999, "end": 183.92 }, { "text": "It was a very inspiring process for me personally.", "start": 184.22, "end": 186.855 }, { "text": "I learned an enormous amount, not only about the topic, but about myself, about humanity, about people, how to relate, how to have conversations, how to disagree, and how to move forward even when things are very, very difficult.", "start": 186.915, "end": 200.37 }, { "text": "And it doesn't feel like any of us knew what we were doing.", "start": 200.61, "end": 203.26999 } ], "start": 179.9, "end": 203.26999, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'd never been involved in politics.", "start": 203.40999, "end": 204.84999 }, { "text": "I mean, I was interested in current affairs.", "start": 204.84999, "end": 206.76999 }, { "text": "I'd read the news.", "start": 206.76999, "end": 207.48999 }, { "text": "I'd, you know, I was a participant in society, I thought.", "start": 207.48999, "end": 210.95 }, { "text": "But I hadn't never considered how decisions were made or how policy was written or how complex it can be.", "start": 211.25, "end": 219.125 } ], "start": 203.40999, "end": 219.125, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And actually, I came out at the end feeling very sorry for politicians thinking I'm I don't know how they make any decisions Mhmm.", "start": 219.125, "end": 225.205 }, { "text": "At all.", "start": 225.285, "end": 226.025 }, { "text": "Because it's it's really difficult to make good decisions, to make well informed decisions, you know, that are gonna be good for the majority of people in society.", "start": 226.085, "end": 234.24 }, { "text": "Up to date then, I suppose I've been advocating for assemblies.", "start": 234.46, "end": 237.76001 }, { "text": "I've been speaking to anyone who'll listen.", "start": 237.82, "end": 240.56001 } ], "start": 219.125, "end": 240.56001, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I've been and, you know, I suppose since then I'm on the board of a of a global organization called People Powered, which really supports practitioners.", "start": 240.86, "end": 249.795 }, { "text": "So individuals, civil society groups, civil servants, both local and national, all over the world who are working with participatory processes.", "start": 249.855, "end": 258.995 }, { "text": "Everything from citizens assemblies, mini publics, participatory budgeting, legislative theater.", "start": 259.15997, "end": 263.74 }, { "text": "They're working on the ground and this, I suppose, network then allows people to share their experiences so that we can really lift up what's working and what's not working and what works in different contexts, what works in different parts of the world.", "start": 263.96, "end": 276.335 }, { "text": "That is all, you know, a volunteer role.", "start": 276.555, "end": 278.795 } ], "start": 240.86, "end": 278.795, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm I'm just really passionate about about bringing this to as many people as possible.", "start": 278.795, "end": 283.615 } ], "start": 278.795, "end": 283.615, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Isn't it just so refreshing to hear someone going from an ordinary citizen with no special interest becoming such a passionate advocate?", "start": 284.155, "end": 291.02002 }, { "text": "I hear these stories all the time, by the way.", "start": 291.64, "end": 294.04 }, { "text": "I was in Norway recently when one of the randomly selected citizens in an assembly there working on the investment strategy of Norway's sovereign wealth fund.", "start": 294.04, "end": 302.38 }, { "text": "It's a whole other story.", "start": 302.535, "end": 303.755 }, { "text": "But he happened to be a social media agency director.", "start": 303.975, "end": 306.795 } ], "start": 284.155, "end": 306.795, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And since the assembly concluded, he's now taken it on himself to make social media videos of him finding various senior politicians and forcing copies of the recommendations of the citizens assembly into their hands.", "start": 307.655, "end": 319.81003 }, { "text": "But let's meet Art O'Leary, the senior civil servant, and hear a bit more about the nuts and bolts of all this.", "start": 320.43002, "end": 326.37003 } ], "start": 307.655, "end": 326.37003, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Most of people in the audience, I can see, are too young to remember the financial crash back in in 2008, 2009, 2010.", "start": 326.75, "end": 334.025 }, { "text": "And we had a a general election in 2011, and the Irish people elected a government on the basis of transformation.", "start": 334.025, "end": 343.165 }, { "text": "The old ways of doing things didn't work.", "start": 343.91998, "end": 346.56 }, { "text": "We made a mess of it, and we need to try new things, you know.", "start": 346.56, "end": 350.32 }, { "text": "And this is where the germ of the idea of a citizen's assembly came along.", "start": 350.32, "end": 354.25998 } ], "start": 326.75, "end": 354.25998, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Our constitution was 75 years old, and the government said, well, we'll create a forum where we will include randomly selected people, and some some members of parliament as well, and put them in a room together to have a look at, some of these issues to see if we can find some solutions.", "start": 354.32, "end": 372.815 }, { "text": "I was sitting at home on on my couch one evening around 11:00 at night, and my phone rang, you know.", "start": 373.035, "end": 379.09 }, { "text": "And, I I don't know about any of you, but nobody ever rings me at 11:00 at night to say they're having a good day, you know.", "start": 379.09, "end": 385.49 }, { "text": "So, I I was working in the parliament at the time.", "start": 385.49, "end": 389.00998 }, { "text": "I had responsibility for communications, media broadcasting, that kind of stuff.", "start": 389.00998, "end": 393.525 } ], "start": 354.32, "end": 393.525, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I assumed that it was a newspaper editor with a story that was gonna make my life miserable with some scoop for the following day.", "start": 393.525, "end": 401.365 }, { "text": "So I nervously answered the phone.", "start": 401.365, "end": 403.205 }, { "text": "Hello?", "start": 403.205, "end": 403.705 }, { "text": "And it was Arteshuk, the prime minister.", "start": 404.005, "end": 406.26498 }, { "text": "And, he said, hi, Art.", "start": 406.69, "end": 409.41 } ], "start": 393.525, "end": 409.41, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I I have a job for you.", "start": 409.41, "end": 410.85 }, { "text": "We have this thing in the program for government.", "start": 410.85, "end": 413.99002 }, { "text": "It's never ever going to work, but we promised we would do it.", "start": 414.37, "end": 418.875 }, { "text": "And we're a government that was elected to keep our promises, so I'd like you to do it.", "start": 419.115, "end": 424.415 }, { "text": "And I said, well, what is it?", "start": 424.635, "end": 426.395 } ], "start": 409.41, "end": 426.395, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And he said, it's called a constitutional convention.", "start": 426.395, "end": 429.455 }, { "text": "And I said, well, what does that mean?", "start": 429.835, "end": 431.755 }, { "text": "What does it do?", "start": 431.755, "end": 432.475 }, { "text": "So he said, we're gonna put a 100 people in a room, and we're gonna ask them a whole pile.", "start": 432.475, "end": 436.91 }, { "text": "Most of them will be randomly selected.", "start": 437.37, "end": 438.88998 } ], "start": 426.395, "end": 438.88998, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, we're gonna ask them a whole pile of really hard questions about things like marriage equality or electoral system and all kinds of other things that we don't know the answer to.", "start": 438.88998, "end": 447.78998 }, { "text": "And at the end of that process, they're gonna tell us what they think, and we're gonna see what we're gonna do about it.", "start": 447.93, "end": 453.27502 }, { "text": "And I said, yeah.", "start": 453.495, "end": 454.61502 }, { "text": "That's never gonna work.", "start": 454.61502, "end": 455.73502 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 455.73502, "end": 456.135 } ], "start": 438.88998, "end": 456.135, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, he said, I know it's not, but we promise to do it, and we have to do it.", "start": 456.135, "end": 461.095 }, { "text": "So we we spoke about the ins and outs of how this might work.", "start": 461.095, "end": 463.655 }, { "text": "And, I said, let me see if I have you straight, Tishuk.", "start": 463.655, "end": 467.05 }, { "text": "As long as I don't kill anybody or spend any money, I can do whatever I like with this bunch of people.", "start": 467.43, "end": 474.49 }, { "text": "And he said famously, I knew you were the fella for me.", "start": 474.94998, "end": 478.485 } ], "start": 456.135, "end": 478.485, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 478.56497, "end": 479.22498 }, { "text": "So so so that's where it started.", "start": 479.925, "end": 481.625 }, { "text": "It was as simple as that.", "start": 481.685, "end": 483.22498 }, { "text": "I rang my boss and said, I have to go and do a thing.", "start": 483.28497, "end": 485.84497 }, { "text": "I'll be back in six months, keep my seat warm.", "start": 485.84497, "end": 487.94498 } ], "start": 478.56497, "end": 487.94498, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And I never went back to work in the parliament.", "start": 488.085, "end": 490.965 }, { "text": "But there's something going on in the world right now.", "start": 490.965, "end": 494.13 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 494.13, "end": 494.37 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 494.37, "end": 495.01 }, { "text": "Increasingly, political systems are looking for ways of including citizens in the development of policy and making better political decisions.", "start": 495.01, "end": 505.59 } ], "start": 488.085, "end": 505.59, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And increasingly, citizens are looking to become more involved beyond electing people every five years.", "start": 505.965, "end": 512.385 }, { "text": "So in in the last two and a half years, I have been in 81 different countries talking about Ireland's experience with citizens assemblies because we are considered to be the world leaders.", "start": 512.445, "end": 526.09 }, { "text": "I mean, we have set up citizens assemblies that delivered transformational social change in this country, the abortion assembly.", "start": 526.09, "end": 534.00494 }, { "text": "We delivered marriage equality.", "start": 534.305, "end": 535.76495 }, { "text": "We had a citizens' assembly that delivered our climate action plan, which introduced carbon taxes without even a murmur from the public.", "start": 535.985, "end": 544.41 } ], "start": 505.965, "end": 544.41, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In France, they were setting cars on fire at the notion of carbon taxes.", "start": 544.41, "end": 548.19 }, { "text": "We had a citizen's assembly.", "start": 548.25, "end": 549.45 }, { "text": "Everybody saw how the process worked and and what had happened.", "start": 549.45, "end": 552.43 }, { "text": "People accepted it.", "start": 552.49, "end": 553.29 }, { "text": "It turned into the government's climate action plan, turned into legislation.", "start": 553.29, "end": 556.685 } ], "start": 544.41, "end": 556.685, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And now that single citizen's assembly, which people give out about spending a million euro in running, has determined how Ireland is going to to invest €50,000,000,000 between now and 2050.", "start": 557.22504, "end": 570.60504 }, { "text": "The one thing I would say is that we need to stop thinking of citizens' assemblies as having a cost.", "start": 570.86005, "end": 576.4 }, { "text": "They're an investment.", "start": 576.62006, "end": 577.58 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 577.58, "end": 577.82 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 577.82, "end": 578.22003 } ], "start": 557.22504, "end": 578.22003, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Because even the simple things like the abortion referendum and the marriage equality referendum, It cost us around €20,000,000 to run a referendum in this country.", "start": 578.22003, "end": 587.565 }, { "text": "Is it not wise that we would spend 5% of that making sure we got the question right?", "start": 588.105, "end": 593.70496 }, { "text": "These are investments, not costs.", "start": 593.70496, "end": 595.46497 }, { "text": "We try and make sure that every citizen's assembly is better than the one that went before us.", "start": 595.46497, "end": 599.07 }, { "text": "We went from a situation where we're knocking on doors.", "start": 599.15, "end": 601.89 } ], "start": 578.22003, "end": 601.89, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Now we use on post our national postal service, geo directory map to select randomly select households based on where people live.", "start": 602.03, "end": 610.43 }, { "text": "So it's a big heat map of the country.", "start": 610.43, "end": 612.45 }, { "text": "And so we send a small few to Mullingar and a lot to Cork City and depending on where people live as well.", "start": 612.59, "end": 619.655 }, { "text": "We are much more sophisticated in the selection.", "start": 619.655, "end": 621.835 }, { "text": "And I'll finish on this point, perhaps.", "start": 621.895, "end": 623.815 } ], "start": 602.03, "end": 623.815, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "To understand this properly, the the, there are some things about representing rep get getting Ireland in one room.", "start": 623.815, "end": 631.48 }, { "text": "Some of the stuff is easy.", "start": 631.86, "end": 633.14 }, { "text": "We've got 51 women and 49 men.", "start": 633.14, "end": 635.56 }, { "text": "We've got 28 people who live in Dublin, because 28 of our population live in Dublin.", "start": 635.77997, "end": 640.695 }, { "text": "We've got 12 people between the age of 18 and 24, but we don't stop there.", "start": 640.695, "end": 645.09503 } ], "start": 623.815, "end": 645.09503, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So age, region, and gender is easy.", "start": 645.09503, "end": 647.275 }, { "text": "We in the overall group, we need four farmers, you know, because 4% of our population are farmers.", "start": 647.495, "end": 653.275 }, { "text": "We need 11 people with a disability.", "start": 653.36005, "end": 654.98004 }, { "text": "We need 17 people, who aren't born in this country.", "start": 655.2, "end": 658.34 }, { "text": "And the list goes on.", "start": 658.4, "end": 659.94 } ], "start": 645.09503, "end": 659.94, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Layer by layer by layer, you randomly select individuals.", "start": 660.16003, "end": 664.5 }, { "text": "So at the end of this process, which we call Ireland in One Room, every single person in Ireland should be able to look into that room and see themselves there.", "start": 665.04004, "end": 673.005 }, { "text": "And if they don't see themselves there, they should see their opinion represented there.", "start": 673.005, "end": 677.58496 }, { "text": "And the results of the abortion assembly, and I I won't spoil all of the surprise here, Louise, except to say that that assembly brought forward recommendations which shocked the government and the media to its core, went way, way beyond what was expected by the government because they were hoping for or they were expecting perhaps something a little more modest, but they they recommended a very liberal regime of women's reproductive health.", "start": 677.64496, "end": 706.745 }, { "text": "They voted in the room 65, 35 in favor of this regime.", "start": 706.745, "end": 710.765 } ], "start": 660.16003, "end": 710.765, "num_words": 140.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "When that question was put to the Irish people in a referendum, the result was sixty six thirty four.", "start": 710.93, "end": 716.23 }, { "text": "Think about that.", "start": 717.32996, "end": 718.47 }, { "text": "First thing it proves that that room was perfectly representative of the Irish people.", "start": 718.93, "end": 723.26996 }, { "text": "And more importantly, it proved that the Irish people were much more nuanced and much more sophisticated in their thinking on this issue than the political system gave them credit for.", "start": 723.41, "end": 736.115 }, { "text": "They were way, way ahead of the politicians.", "start": 736.175, "end": 738.435 } ], "start": 710.93, "end": 738.435, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Behavioral economists call this the wisdom of crowds.", "start": 738.81995, "end": 741.31995 } ], "start": 738.81995, "end": 741.31995, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So a true citizens assembly, capital c, capital a, has two key characteristics.", "start": 743.62, "end": 749.07996 }, { "text": "It's about representation and deliberation.", "start": 749.45996, "end": 751.65497 }, { "text": "It's a group of people selected at random and then filtered to be representative of the wider population on all key demographics.", "start": 752.195, "end": 758.77496 }, { "text": "And then given time to deliberate with one another and make recommendations and sometimes even decisions.", "start": 759.315, "end": 765.175 } ], "start": 743.62, "end": 765.175, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I love this.", "start": 766.49, "end": 767.13 }, { "text": "I really love this.", "start": 767.13, "end": 769.15 }, { "text": "We seem so far from what we call today representative democracy.", "start": 769.53, "end": 773.63 }, { "text": "The current model of elected MPs where most are career politicians, and they seem so disconnected from people's realities.", "start": 774.65, "end": 782.175 }, { "text": "I mean, I was a politician.", "start": 783.275, "end": 784.575 } ], "start": 766.49, "end": 784.575, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I know many people are there for the good reasons, but this kind of representation is another level.", "start": 784.715, "end": 790.575 }, { "text": "And I also really love this insight that societies are indeed ahead of their establishments.", "start": 791.115, "end": 796.09503 }, { "text": "And it is difficult to measure when you think of it, you know, you have polls, surveys, studies, protests, and revolutions.", "start": 797.29, "end": 804.91 }, { "text": "But this citizens assembly is another level.", "start": 805.61, "end": 807.69 }, { "text": "They showed how advanced people are compared to politicians and and, who who who who are supposed to represent them.", "start": 807.69, "end": 816.105 } ], "start": 784.715, "end": 816.105, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right?", "start": 816.105, "end": 816.605 }, { "text": "And the more I think of it, the more incredible I think it is to be able to take a snapshot of societies, through I mean, think of it like it's society beliefs, values, and thinking in a process that ends up with passing a legislation based on those.", "start": 816.90497, "end": 836.09 }, { "text": "And to the Irish politicians' credit, Right?", "start": 837.51, "end": 840.21497 }, { "text": "We we we need to acknowledge that for them.", "start": 840.595, "end": 842.535 }, { "text": "They were humble.", "start": 842.83496, "end": 843.815 } ], "start": 816.105, "end": 843.815, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They were smart.", "start": 844.355, "end": 845.255 }, { "text": "And they were visionary, you know, to set up the citizens assembly.", "start": 845.39496, "end": 848.83496 }, { "text": "And it's and it's like for them giving or sharing their power.", "start": 848.83496, "end": 853.20996 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 853.20996, "end": 853.52997 }, { "text": "Like, they didn't see it as a threat to their power, but rather as a tool to give them authentic, legitimacy.", "start": 853.52997, "end": 860.43 } ], "start": 844.355, "end": 860.43, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 863.05, "end": 863.44995 }, { "text": "And we're just starting to hear in detail about the most famous example of the Irish Citizens Assembly's work on abortion, and Louise was part of that.", "start": 863.44995, "end": 872.215 } ], "start": 863.05, "end": 872.215, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "What's interesting is that I don't even think that we knew ourselves as the assembly members when we went to the ballot at the fifth weekend.", "start": 875.23505, "end": 884.43 }, { "text": "We didn't know how far we were gonna go.", "start": 884.65, "end": 887.23 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 887.77, "end": 888.17 }, { "text": "Because abortion is a very sensitive topic.", "start": 888.17, "end": 891.07 }, { "text": "And people might imagine that there would be sparks and fireworks with with this type of conversation, but really it was very careful.", "start": 891.61, "end": 899.345 } ], "start": 875.23505, "end": 899.345, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It was very quiet, I would say, at the table.", "start": 899.805, "end": 903.185 }, { "text": "It was considered.", "start": 903.40497, "end": 904.865 }, { "text": "It was respectful.", "start": 905.245, "end": 906.14496 }, { "text": "There was just so much information came at us.", "start": 906.685, "end": 908.76 }, { "text": "The next three weekend got added.", "start": 908.84, "end": 910.04004 } ], "start": 899.805, "end": 910.04004, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And also we had heard from all the experts and we kind of we were trying to start to make sense of all that.", "start": 910.04004, "end": 915.72003 }, { "text": "And then we thought, who's missing here?", "start": 915.72003, "end": 918.68 }, { "text": "We're like, okay.", "start": 918.68, "end": 919.24 }, { "text": "We need to hear from people who've been affected by this.", "start": 919.24, "end": 922.215 }, { "text": "So that was the main, I suppose, feedback piece that had a fundamental change in how our assembly was run.", "start": 922.215, "end": 930.635 } ], "start": 910.04004, "end": 930.635, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And the secretariat of the assembly went away and found samples of people who had been affected by the eighth amendment in the constitution.", "start": 930.935, "end": 938.35 }, { "text": "So they found a variety of different people who'd been affected, both positively, negatively, people who'd had abortions regretted it, people who hadn't and wished they could've, people who'd had to marry in the nineteen sixties and had been miserable their entire lives because they, you know, they had an unexpected pregnancy, etcetera.", "start": 938.81, "end": 953.935 }, { "text": "So they were recorded and we all sat in the room that morning and they played the recordings of these interviews.", "start": 953.935, "end": 961.155 }, { "text": "That was very, very difficult.", "start": 962.175, "end": 964.59503 }, { "text": "Many people just had their hands on then like that at the table.", "start": 965.59, "end": 968.95 } ], "start": 930.935, "end": 968.95, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It was so hard to listen to.", "start": 968.95, "end": 970.95 }, { "text": "And at the end of it, it was almost like there was nothing left to say.", "start": 970.95, "end": 974.23004 }, { "text": "We kinda just looked at each other.", "start": 974.23004, "end": 975.67004 }, { "text": "I remember at my table and we just went, oh, for God's sake.", "start": 975.67004, "end": 979.615 }, { "text": "Why do we even debate in here?", "start": 979.615, "end": 981.39496 } ], "start": 968.95, "end": 981.39496, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is madness that we're that we can't just allow people to make their own decision that is in their best interest for their life, in their context, that none of us could ever possibly understand or know.", "start": 981.69495, "end": 994.035 }, { "text": "And that was just everything just tipped over after that.", "start": 994.44, "end": 997.98004 } ], "start": 981.69495, "end": 997.98004, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Just to touch you, Lou Louise mentioned it, and and I think it's very important.", "start": 998.52, "end": 1002.86 }, { "text": "One of the the key principles of, every citizen's assembly is that there is zero tolerance for conflict.", "start": 1003.88, "end": 1011.575 }, { "text": "There are very few rules in the room, but every one of those 100 citizens have to be able to walk into a room and express their opinion in a safe environment.", "start": 1011.575, "end": 1019.975 }, { "text": "We've had a couple of occasions where we've we've had to ask people, I think you go for a walk around the block now.", "start": 1019.975, "end": 1024.99 }, { "text": "Clear your head.", "start": 1024.99, "end": 1025.63 } ], "start": 998.52, "end": 1025.63, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And when you're prepared to be respectful, then, then we'll let you back in as well.", "start": 1025.63, "end": 1030.03 }, { "text": "And I think that's absolutely key.", "start": 1030.03, "end": 1032.03 }, { "text": "And this is the that was so important for the citizens because everyone has their own life experiences, their own opinions on on these things as well.", "start": 1032.03, "end": 1039.095 }, { "text": "And what we created was a safe environment in which to express those opinions.", "start": 1039.095, "end": 1044.535 }, { "text": "And people were much more willing to be open and honest about this knowing that there was no judgment coming from around the table.", "start": 1044.535, "end": 1053.06 } ], "start": 1025.63, "end": 1053.06, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They convinced me citizens' assemblies can help solve intractable issues.", "start": 1053.52, "end": 1058.3401 }, { "text": "When you think of it, who could have thought that a predominantly Catholic country would vote for such a progressive regime for women's reproductive health?", "start": 1059.12, "end": 1069.065 }, { "text": "I wanna be disabled's advocate, but your guests are so sincere and convincing.", "start": 1069.605, "end": 1074.0249 } ], "start": 1053.52, "end": 1074.0249, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Very good.", "start": 1074.73, "end": 1075.47 }, { "text": "I think this is where we might bring in our idea of playing relationship counselors between humanity and democracy and how we have the tough conversations we need to have.", "start": 1075.7699, "end": 1084.4299 }, { "text": "Citizens' assemblies can play a really important role in creating the space for these conversations to happen.", "start": 1084.73, "end": 1089.87 }, { "text": "I think it might be helpful to contrast this process with another referendum that happened two years earlier, Brexit.", "start": 1090.4651, "end": 1096.0851 }, { "text": "I'm not really talking about the output in terms of the policy recommendation and how progressive or not it was, but I'm more talking about the outcome in terms of citizens' trust in one another, citizens' trust in politicians and in politics, and the trust of politics and politicians in citizens, actually.", "start": 1096.145, "end": 1115.16 } ], "start": 1074.73, "end": 1115.16, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Because in The UK, we seem now to think that referenda are a terrible idea, that they're inherently divisive, That they they make people hate each other and hate politicians.", "start": 1115.62, "end": 1124.285 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1124.505, "end": 1125.005 }, { "text": "And that's not what happened in Ireland with the referendum.", "start": 1125.705, "end": 1128.765 }, { "text": "There, arguably as a result of the citizens assembly and despite all the same misinformation, disinformation, the country has actually come together after a referendum.", "start": 1129.385, "end": 1139.81 }, { "text": "Rather than there still being the division like there is in The UK between leavers and remainers, which still divides us maybe even more now than in 2016, they've come together.", "start": 1140.3501, "end": 1150.2101 } ], "start": 1115.62, "end": 1150.2101, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I really like the way the Irish political commentator, Finton O'Toole, put it in an article in The Guardian.", "start": 1151.3451, "end": 1156.5651 }, { "text": "He wrote that during the referendum campaign, because there were people like me in inverted commas on the breakfast radio and TV shows, the randomly selected citizens from the assembly, people like Louise, rather than politicians arguing with one another over people's heads.", "start": 1156.7051, "end": 1171.95 }, { "text": "But as a result of that, this process was, he wrote, immune to the usual disinformation.", "start": 1172.09, "end": 1177.23 }, { "text": "And the country came together afterwards rather than pulling apart.", "start": 1178.195, "end": 1181.575 } ], "start": 1151.3451, "end": 1181.575, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That feels so important.", "start": 1181.955, "end": 1183.575 }, { "text": "I think people are really fed up of seeing politicians and experts talking at them.", "start": 1183.875, "end": 1188.775 }, { "text": "The fact that normal people, people just like them, were randomly selected, learned about the topic, and came up with recommendations, all in a transparent process, changes from the usual suspects.", "start": 1189.235, "end": 1201.5599 }, { "text": "Political leaders seen as disconnected from reality, biased, working behind closed doors, and speaking a complicated language.", "start": 1202.1, "end": 1210.2849 } ], "start": 1181.955, "end": 1210.2849, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that's exactly right.", "start": 1210.3049, "end": 1211.945 }, { "text": "There's a lovely phrase that Helene Landemore, who's one of the thinkers behind all of this work, she wrote a book called Open Democracy.", "start": 1211.945, "end": 1218.125 }, { "text": "She has this phrase.", "start": 1218.66, "end": 1219.4601 }, { "text": "She says, what these create is experts on top, not experts on top.", "start": 1219.4601, "end": 1224.4401 }, { "text": "That expertise is available to people, but it's not like it's doing things for people and and deciding without them.", "start": 1224.5, "end": 1231.8 } ], "start": 1210.3049, "end": 1231.8, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It feels like we have two systems that need to coexist.", "start": 1232.1649, "end": 1234.6649 }, { "text": "One represents old power structures established since a long time, as long as eighteen, eight eight hundred years in The UK.", "start": 1235.765, "end": 1245.225 }, { "text": "The first assembly was formed in the thirteenth century to approve the king's taxes.", "start": 1245.64, "end": 1250.2999 }, { "text": "The elite, whether from power, wealth, or education, or all of the above, devising and making decisions behind closed doors.", "start": 1250.6, "end": 1259.805 }, { "text": "And, and, and they see their roles as maintaining stability and managing state affairs for as long as they can.", "start": 1260.185, "end": 1267.3251 } ], "start": 1232.1649, "end": 1267.3251, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And the other system represent new powers, you know, open structures where randomly selected citizens represent representing all levels of societies have open deliberations that could be followed by anyone who's interested in the process.", "start": 1267.865, "end": 1283.4 }, { "text": "These citizens return to their everyday life After their contract is achieved, so they are perceived as genuine, truly independent and honest.", "start": 1283.9401, "end": 1293.5349 }, { "text": "Citizens assemblies seem to create spaces where these systems can come together and actually trust one another and also politicians more, when you think of it, and actually build those relationships again, you know, relationship between citizens and politicians, which is so much better than what is happening in so many places, right?", "start": 1294.6349, "end": 1314.7 }, { "text": "Where when countries go through crises, people give the benefit of the doubt to the strongmen who cut through complexity, use binary devisive, but a simple language that can be understand by anyone.", "start": 1315.095, "end": 1327.195 } ], "start": 1267.865, "end": 1327.195, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Right.", "start": 1327.83, "end": 1328.15 }, { "text": "And I worry that the mood we have in many places today is that we should never do referenda.", "start": 1328.15, "end": 1332.65 }, { "text": "We should never ask citizens the question because it will inevitably go wrong.", "start": 1332.87, "end": 1337.69 }, { "text": "But what the Irish process shows, I think, is it's much more about how you do them rather than whether.", "start": 1338.07, "end": 1343.595 }, { "text": "And what's really important to know is that the Citizens Assembly wasn't created against the backdrop of political or social unity.", "start": 1343.975, "end": 1351.195 } ], "start": 1327.83, "end": 1351.195, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In fact, its origins are in 02/2009 during the great financial crisis.", "start": 1351.6549, "end": 1356.955 }, { "text": "That hit Ireland really hard, and trust in government at the time was actually below 10%.", "start": 1357.6, "end": 1362.82 }, { "text": "How did this space where the relationships between citizens and politicians and between citizens and each other has got so much better?", "start": 1363.6, "end": 1370.24 }, { "text": "How and why did it get created in the first place?", "start": 1370.24, "end": 1372.8999 }, { "text": "This is where David Farrell, professor of politics at University College Dublin, came into the conversation.", "start": 1373.275, "end": 1378.415 } ], "start": 1351.6549, "end": 1378.415, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I write a textbook on electoral systems, a real page turner.", "start": 1379.275, "end": 1383.0549 }, { "text": "And, in 2003, I got this email from this buddy of mine from University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Ken Carty, saying, hey David, do you want to come to Vancouver for a few days to talk about, electoral systems to a bunch of citizens?", "start": 1383.515, "end": 1399.01 }, { "text": "I said, yeah.", "start": 1399.71, "end": 1400.5751 }, { "text": "You'll find me out to find no problem.", "start": 1400.5751, "end": 1402.175 }, { "text": "I'll I'll go there.", "start": 1402.175, "end": 1402.9751 } ], "start": 1379.275, "end": 1402.9751, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I didn't know what it was all about.", "start": 1402.9751, "end": 1404.415 }, { "text": "And then he explained, it's this thing we're trying.", "start": 1404.415, "end": 1406.495 }, { "text": "It's called a citizens assembly.", "start": 1406.495, "end": 1407.875 }, { "text": "So it became it was the British Columbia citizens assembly, the world's first citizens assembly that looked at the electoral system, and they used my textbook as the main text, and I was an expert witness.", "start": 1408.015, "end": 1418.42 }, { "text": "I had autographs to sign.", "start": 1418.72, "end": 1420.24 } ], "start": 1402.9751, "end": 1420.24, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I had a 160 citizens in a snaking robe, you sign, you know, photographs, a whole shooting match.", "start": 1420.24, "end": 1426.1 }, { "text": "In Ontario, they did the same thing a few months later.", "start": 1426.395, "end": 1428.875 }, { "text": "In The Netherlands, they did the same.", "start": 1428.875, "end": 1430.3151 }, { "text": "They had three citizens assemblies all on electoral systems.", "start": 1430.3151, "end": 1433.135 }, { "text": "So I had never heard of a citizens assembly.", "start": 1433.515, "end": 1435.355 } ], "start": 1420.24, "end": 1435.355, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I didn't even know the word sortition.", "start": 1435.355, "end": 1436.975 }, { "text": "I knew nothing about deliberation.", "start": 1437.035, "end": 1438.415 }, { "text": "I was an electoral systems person, but I'd actually witnessed one of these things.", "start": 1438.555, "end": 1442.67 }, { "text": "You know, if if any of you have ever had the opportunity to go to one go, just to stand in the room and soak up the atmosphere, it's one of the most incredible experiences of your life.", "start": 1442.67, "end": 1451.79 }, { "text": "So anyway, flash forward 2008, 2009, Art was telling the story of the crash.", "start": 1451.79, "end": 1457.175 } ], "start": 1435.355, "end": 1457.175, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Major crash.", "start": 1458.035, "end": 1458.775 }, { "text": "And everyone was very angry.", "start": 1459.235, "end": 1460.6951 }, { "text": "All the indicators went down.", "start": 1460.835, "end": 1461.9551 }, { "text": "The economy went down.", "start": 1461.9551, "end": 1462.915 }, { "text": "The political indicators went down.", "start": 1462.915, "end": 1464.855 } ], "start": 1458.035, "end": 1464.855, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "People were protesting on the streets, and different groups started to campaign for change.", "start": 1465.0751, "end": 1469.5901 }, { "text": "And it's hard to believe it, but in the mix were political scientists.", "start": 1469.5901, "end": 1472.55 }, { "text": "We rolled up our sleeves, came out of the ivory tower, you name whatever metaphor you want, and pushed an agenda of political reform.", "start": 1472.55, "end": 1479.5901 }, { "text": "We're talking about all sorts of reforms that should be introduced in terms, you know, gender quotas and elect parliamentary reform, all of that sort of stuff.", "start": 1479.5901, "end": 1487.815 }, { "text": "But particularly, we talked about citizens assemblies.", "start": 1487.815, "end": 1490.615 } ], "start": 1465.0751, "end": 1490.615, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We were writing op eds and not getting listened to, getting shouted at, being told you ignorant academics.", "start": 1490.615, "end": 1496.235 }, { "text": "We have a citizens assembly, it's Dail Eireann.", "start": 1496.74, "end": 1498.9199 }, { "text": "Would you trust your citizens to talk about complex things?", "start": 1499.46, "end": 1502.1799 }, { "text": "No.", "start": 1502.1799, "end": 1502.6799 }, { "text": "And, you know, you talk about British Columbia, but Canadians are different.", "start": 1502.8999, "end": 1506.0199 } ], "start": 1490.615, "end": 1506.0199, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Here in Ireland, it would never work.", "start": 1506.0199, "end": 1507.38 }, { "text": "These three things.", "start": 1507.38, "end": 1508.44 }, { "text": "We have a citizens assembly, citizens are stupid and it wouldn't work here.", "start": 1508.98, "end": 1512.405 }, { "text": "And we kept on pushing, we went on the airwaves, weren't getting very far.", "start": 1512.5651, "end": 1517.0651 }, { "text": "And then out of the blue, I got this email one day from an organization called Atlantic Philanthropies.", "start": 1517.285, "end": 1521.9451 } ], "start": 1506.0199, "end": 1521.9451, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Long gone now, and so not known to many of the people in the room, but it was set up by an American, an Irish American, Chuck Feeney, whose ambition in life He was listed as the twentieth richest man in the world in the nineteen eighties.", "start": 1522.805, "end": 1536.25 }, { "text": "And his mission in life was to give away every last dime of his money before he died, and he did.", "start": 1536.4701, "end": 1540.7301 }, { "text": "So he had all sorts of just good causes that he supported in Ireland and other countries.", "start": 1540.915, "end": 1545.495 }, { "text": "And they approached me and said, the Atlantic are famous for this.", "start": 1545.715, "end": 1548.275 }, { "text": "They don't you don't approach them, they approach you.", "start": 1548.275, "end": 1550.775 } ], "start": 1522.805, "end": 1550.775, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I was told, go in and have the meeting with them.", "start": 1550.995, "end": 1553.61 }, { "text": "So I sat down with my mates and we wrote up some plans and I had in my back pocket, literally.", "start": 1553.61, "end": 1558.35 }, { "text": "Went into the meeting, just, you know, they said at a certain point, do you ever think about running one of these things?", "start": 1558.97, "end": 1565.21 }, { "text": "I said, you know, if you got a $100 to spare, we could do this as an experiment for you.", "start": 1565.21, "end": 1569.995 }, { "text": "They looked at me, they shook their heads, they said, you're not serious.", "start": 1569.995, "end": 1572.975 } ], "start": 1550.995, "end": 1572.975, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This isn't ambitious enough.", "start": 1573.515, "end": 1574.975 }, { "text": "Why don't you reflect on this conversation, go away and think about it?", "start": 1575.115, "end": 1578.335 }, { "text": "So as an academic applying for funding, I had this bizarre situation where I had three meetings with these guys for them to say the money I was asking for wasn't enough.", "start": 1578.555, "end": 1587.03 }, { "text": "Eventually, we settled on €650,000, which is a substantial amount in 2010, to establish an organization.", "start": 1587.65, "end": 1595.9099 }, { "text": "So we set up an organization called We the Citizens.", "start": 1596.0499, "end": 1598.39 } ], "start": 1573.515, "end": 1598.39, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We had the then chair of the then head of the Irish theater, Firth Mac O'Neill, who became our front of office person.", "start": 1598.945, "end": 1605.525 }, { "text": "We had professional administrators running the show.", "start": 1605.985, "end": 1608.865 }, { "text": "We had an office in the center of Dublin, and then four nearly political scientists in the background doing all the experimental work.", "start": 1608.865, "end": 1615.0901 }, { "text": "And we ran road shows all around the country to drum up interest in deliberative processes and to also get a sense of what the people of Ireland wanted to talk about.", "start": 1615.31, "end": 1623.705 }, { "text": "And this culminated in Ireland's first citizens assembly, the We the Citizens Assembly in 2011.", "start": 1623.945, "end": 1629.3049 } ], "start": 1598.945, "end": 1629.3049, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We were experimenting on a 100 citizens to map how the impact of being involved in this affected them, which produces produced data.", "start": 1629.3049, "end": 1637.9701 }, { "text": "And then we had a series of meetings with all the party leaders, produced our report and said, look, it works.", "start": 1637.9701, "end": 1643.43 }, { "text": "There's a lot of serendipity in the story, the serendipity of the crash.", "start": 1643.65, "end": 1646.6901 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 1646.6901, "end": 1646.93 }, { "text": "The serendipity that I accidentally discovered citizens assemblies.", "start": 1646.93, "end": 1650.15 } ], "start": 1629.3049, "end": 1650.15, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The serendipity of the politicians being open and receptive to the idea of political reform in a time when they had no money to spend on the economy.", "start": 1650.6649, "end": 1657.485 }, { "text": "So in a sense, we we were pushing at an open door, and what happened is the the newly elected government agreed with the idea, set it up, and then the next step in serendipity was that they insisted that a third of the members of the convention that they were now going to set up, that Art was talking about, should be members of parliament.", "start": 1657.865, "end": 1676.65 }, { "text": "We said to them, that's madness.", "start": 1676.87, "end": 1678.33 }, { "text": "That will not work.", "start": 1678.6549, "end": 1679.695 }, { "text": "The politicians will take over.", "start": 1679.695, "end": 1680.975 } ], "start": 1650.6649, "end": 1680.975, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They'll dominate and everything.", "start": 1680.975, "end": 1682.335 }, { "text": "And we were proven wrong.", "start": 1682.335, "end": 1683.5349 }, { "text": "It really worked.", "start": 1683.5349, "end": 1684.4349 }, { "text": "The final bit of serendipity is they appointed Art, who as you've just heard used to work in the parliament.", "start": 1684.975, "end": 1690.355 }, { "text": "So he knew he knew the species of the politicians and they knew him.", "start": 1690.6699, "end": 1694.9299 } ], "start": 1680.975, "end": 1694.9299, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there was no better person to keep control of this very unusual mix of citizens and politicians.", "start": 1695.07, "end": 1700.45 }, { "text": "And my final point here, which is of relevance, is what you then produced were 33 politicians who not only knew about citizens' assemblies, they'd been members of a citizens' assembly.", "start": 1700.83, "end": 1711.985 }, { "text": "And to this day, we have party leaders.", "start": 1711.985, "end": 1714.005 }, { "text": "Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein, the most recent leader of the Social Democrats, the recent speaker or or chairperson of the Dail, people who are government ministers, had been members of these things.", "start": 1714.305, "end": 1724.64 }, { "text": "Some of them had been critics of it beforehand and they were converted.", "start": 1724.64, "end": 1727.54 } ], "start": 1695.07, "end": 1727.54, "num_words": 104.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so this real story as to why Ireland has had so many of them ever since, the big part of that is the fact that we converted our politicians by accident in terms of the design.", "start": 1727.92, "end": 1737.845 } ], "start": 1727.92, "end": 1737.845, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It it is one of the big features because it was only the first senate assembly, the constitutional convention, which had politicians.", "start": 1738.225, "end": 1745.87 }, { "text": "The five since were were 100 members, you know.", "start": 1746.09, "end": 1748.81 }, { "text": "And but David David is absolutely right.", "start": 1748.81, "end": 1751.53 }, { "text": "You know, the the first meeting of the citizens and the politicians was very, very difficult, you know, because the citizens were saying, we're not gonna be pushed around now.", "start": 1751.53, "end": 1760.9249 }, { "text": "We want to have our say.", "start": 1760.9249, "end": 1762.125 } ], "start": 1738.225, "end": 1762.125, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and, and and one politician took and I won't say who it is because he's a he's a minister now, so I I won't embarrass him.", "start": 1762.125, "end": 1770.6849 }, { "text": "But he took the microphone on four occasions at the first meeting to say how important it was that the citizens had a voice, you know.", "start": 1770.6849, "end": 1778.85 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1778.85, "end": 1779.35 }, { "text": "And the irony of that went over his head.", "start": 1779.49, "end": 1781.51 }, { "text": "What it did create when the reports went back from the citizens assembly to the parliament for consideration, the the recommendations to reduce the voting age for marriage equality.", "start": 1781.8099, "end": 1792.205 } ], "start": 1762.125, "end": 1792.205, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Unlike many of the other citizens assemblies, including British Columbia, there was an ownership in the room.", "start": 1792.985, "end": 1798.345 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1798.345, "end": 1798.505 }, { "text": "You know, they said, actually, no.", "start": 1798.505, "end": 1799.945 }, { "text": "We were there.", "start": 1799.945, "end": 1800.4249 }, { "text": "We were in the room.", "start": 1800.4249, "end": 1801.3049 } ], "start": 1792.985, "end": 1801.3049, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We know this works.", "start": 1801.3049, "end": 1802.265 }, { "text": "This was fair.", "start": 1802.265, "end": 1803.12 }, { "text": "This was a brilliant process.", "start": 1803.2, "end": 1804.58 }, { "text": "When Ken Carty in British Columbia sent his report to the parliament, they left it on a shelf for two years and said, who are these people?", "start": 1804.96, "end": 1812.24 }, { "text": "What are they doing?", "start": 1812.24, "end": 1812.96 } ], "start": 1801.3049, "end": 1812.96, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Who asked them to do that?", "start": 1812.96, "end": 1814.08 }, { "text": "And it just simply didn't work.", "start": 1814.08, "end": 1815.675 }, { "text": "That lovely sense of ownership.", "start": 1815.915, "end": 1817.8551 }, { "text": "So it didn't require politicians being involved in the future because there has been continuing membership of that.", "start": 1818.3151, "end": 1823.995 }, { "text": "There are still members of the Iraqtus right now who remember being in that room, staying up till 2AM, speaking to ordinary citizens, and that sense of family that was created about this shared job of work of which they are very proud.", "start": 1823.995, "end": 1839.49 } ], "start": 1812.96, "end": 1839.49, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is when there was this intense anger on the streets.", "start": 1839.95, "end": 1842.675 }, { "text": "You know, people lost their jobs, and the public sector had lost pay.", "start": 1842.755, "end": 1845.395 }, { "text": "It there were questions at one point about whether there might be a run on on, the, you know, the ATMs and everything.", "start": 1845.395, "end": 1850.295 }, { "text": "Things were really, really bad.", "start": 1850.515, "end": 1852.135 }, { "text": "And, we we certainly fetch you know, had arrived in Kilkenny and put out leaflets and went on local radio, our our our team, saying, you want to come for a bowl of soup and talk about the future of Ireland?", "start": 1852.5951, "end": 1865.71 } ], "start": 1839.95, "end": 1865.71, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, come to this hotel at this time of night and and be ready to to talk.", "start": 1865.71, "end": 1869.885 }, { "text": "And I remember we were so nervous whether anyone was gonna turn up, but also what kind of mood we're gonna get into the room.", "start": 1870.285, "end": 1876.685 }, { "text": "And I remember Fiac McNeil, as I said, our chair, who put it, I thought, so well.", "start": 1876.685, "end": 1880.685 }, { "text": "He was interviewed later on about how to how to gone because a 150 people turned up, had their bowl of soup, had a perfectly civil conversation in a deliberative way with facilitators and everything.", "start": 1880.685, "end": 1891.11 }, { "text": "No anger.", "start": 1891.65, "end": 1892.39 } ], "start": 1865.71, "end": 1892.39, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And as he said, what happened is that people park the anger at the door.", "start": 1893.01, "end": 1896.37 }, { "text": "Every other event was of the same kind.", "start": 1896.37, "end": 1898.05 }, { "text": "They knew they were coming here to have a civil conversation, which is what you want with good deliberation.", "start": 1898.05, "end": 1902.9249 }, { "text": "They instinctively I'm not saying it was an Irish thing.", "start": 1903.225, "end": 1905.7849 }, { "text": "It was just citizens get this.", "start": 1905.7849, "end": 1907.705 } ], "start": 1893.01, "end": 1907.705, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think it's Martin Luther King.", "start": 1907.705, "end": 1908.985 }, { "text": "I'm gonna paraphrase him poorly here, but he says that is it that riot is the is the language of the oppressed or something like that.", "start": 1908.985, "end": 1917.14 }, { "text": "Basically, you know, that the anger, I think, stems from not having a voice and not having a channel through which to speak what what's going on for you, what you're afraid of, what you're worried about, what you know, and I think that the a citizens assembly process opens up this space to go, what are we gonna do about this?", "start": 1917.14, "end": 1939.195 } ], "start": 1907.705, "end": 1939.195, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And just on that issue, what you said about the two way nature of trust, I mean, strikes a chord with me because the political system, when they received the reports from the citizens, they trusted the process.", "start": 1939.195, "end": 1949.07 }, { "text": "They it was designed properly.", "start": 1949.07, "end": 1950.69 }, { "text": "It was thorough.", "start": 1951.15, "end": 1952.0299 }, { "text": "People gave it their all, etcetera.", "start": 1952.0299, "end": 1953.65 }, { "text": "But interestingly, on the first assembly where the politicians were involved, there was a lot of anger at politicians at the first meeting.", "start": 1954.11, "end": 1961.5651 } ], "start": 1939.195, "end": 1961.5651, "num_words": 75.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "At the last meeting, it was hugs and kisses, and it's beautiful.", "start": 1961.785, "end": 1965.405 }, { "text": "But the essence of that was that the citizens came out and said, do you know politicians aren't bad people?", "start": 1965.785, "end": 1972.125 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 1972.22, "end": 1972.86 }, { "text": "They know an awful lot of stuff about an awful lot of stuff that we don't give them much credit for, and they work damn hard.", "start": 1972.86, "end": 1980.38 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 1980.38, "end": 1980.78 } ], "start": 1961.785, "end": 1980.78, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that sense of trust because they got to be close-up to the political system was a very important feature, again, of that first assembly.", "start": 1980.78, "end": 1989.165 } ], "start": 1980.78, "end": 1989.165, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think we're really getting into why citizens assemblies work now.", "start": 1990.585, "end": 1994.185 }, { "text": "This is a kind of a therapy space for politics to go to.", "start": 1994.185, "end": 1997.545 }, { "text": "It's like if there are standing citizens assemblies everywhere, then the relationships between humanity and democracy might be better.", "start": 1997.545, "end": 2004.8 }, { "text": "Just like if everyone had access to really good therapy, the relationships between humans and humans might be better.", "start": 2004.8, "end": 2009.86 } ], "start": 1990.585, "end": 2009.86, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Totally.", "start": 2010.3201, "end": 2010.8 }, { "text": "I agree.", "start": 2010.8, "end": 2011.54 }, { "text": "These processes seem to make it possible to have a respectful dialogue where there are rules to continue that dialogue, and at the same time have experts come and inform you about issues that you may not be familiar with.", "start": 2011.92, "end": 2025.905 }, { "text": "And you can have interventions that help you understand a topic, whether confirm or bring a new light to your previous thoughts.", "start": 2026.285, "end": 2033.62 }, { "text": "And when people come together and work together on topics they care about, and there is an environment that allows for genuine but also very personal conversations.", "start": 2034.0801, "end": 2045.125 } ], "start": 2010.3201, "end": 2045.125, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think there is a magic that happens.", "start": 2045.125, "end": 2047.525 }, { "text": "It brings the personal and the political together, and that I think is what we need right now.", "start": 2047.525, "end": 2053.705 }, { "text": "I think this is a human trait because always we are wondering, is this replicable?", "start": 2054.165, "end": 2058.85 }, { "text": "Is the citizen assembly in Ireland only successful because it's Ireland?", "start": 2059.3901, "end": 2064.29 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2064.51, "end": 2065.01 } ], "start": 2045.125, "end": 2065.01, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But when you you get to speak and have deep conversations, when you work together for quite some time on difficult issues, there is empathy that is created.", "start": 2065.1501, "end": 2074.415 }, { "text": "And because sometimes maybe you will discover that there is one person who who wants to kick you because in this representation sort of exercise you can have anyone.", "start": 2075.035, "end": 2086.1501 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2086.4502, "end": 2086.77 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2086.77, "end": 2087.01 }, { "text": "And then that's what we usually afraid of.", "start": 2087.01, "end": 2089.35 } ], "start": 2065.1501, "end": 2089.35, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Are we going to have our adversary or our our enemy with us there?", "start": 2089.4102, "end": 2093.83 }, { "text": "I mean, here we're not trying to be blind to racist bigotry or fascism, but at the same time, I believe these processes make these violent ideologies, sentiments stand out, you know, and when we see that they are a minority in a group.", "start": 2095.25, "end": 2114.62 }, { "text": "I, I fundamentally believe in, in humanity and universal values.", "start": 2114.9202, "end": 2119.6602 }, { "text": "And I think when you, even when you have this sortition kind of exercise, you will see that humanity is, is fundamentally, you know, not violent against each other.", "start": 2120.52, "end": 2132.915 }, { "text": "And I think in these kind of dynamics, we really see how small and not representative, these these awful ideologies are.", "start": 2134.655, "end": 2145.0598 } ], "start": 2089.4102, "end": 2145.0598, "num_words": 118.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And sometimes you have magic happen when when these people can see maybe that they were wrong all the time.", "start": 2145.0598, "end": 2151.7998 }, { "text": "Maybe they will understand that there are different life experiences and that there are different opinions and that's okay.", "start": 2152.5, "end": 2160.165 }, { "text": "We don't need to hate and kill each other because of that.", "start": 2160.385, "end": 2163.845 }, { "text": "And what I'm saying, I'm very influenced by my friend Diya Khan.", "start": 2163.905, "end": 2167.765 }, { "text": "She's a filmmaker.", "start": 2168.065, "end": 2169.205 } ], "start": 2145.0598, "end": 2169.205, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "She filmed this incredible documentary called Meeting the Enemy.", "start": 2169.7449, "end": 2174.7 }, { "text": "And, you know, Diya is a brown Muslim woman.", "start": 2175.24, "end": 2178.86 }, { "text": "The way she puts it is she, she always experienced racism, right?", "start": 2179.1602, "end": 2183.32 }, { "text": "And, and, and hate from both communities.", "start": 2183.32, "end": 2186.1401 }, { "text": "You know, she grew up in, in, in Norway and she lived in The UK.", "start": 2186.36, "end": 2190.635 } ], "start": 2169.7449, "end": 2190.635, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And she had she faced hate both from her brown community as she puts it, and from her white community.", "start": 2192.635, "end": 2200.095 }, { "text": "Like, and, and because she was raised as a musician and they were saying the the brown community would say, okay, Muslim woman shouldn't be using their voice, shouldn't be singing, shouldn't be artists.", "start": 2200.315, "end": 2211.91 }, { "text": "And the white supremacists that she would they they would spit at her, when she was Wow.", "start": 2212.29, "end": 2219.025 }, { "text": "A kid, and it would tell her go back to your country.", "start": 2219.185, "end": 2221.765 }, { "text": "But, when and she received death threats in The UK when when she was talking about how societies need to be diverse and multiple.", "start": 2222.305, "end": 2232.53 } ], "start": 2192.635, "end": 2232.53, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, she said that the the the British police told her we cannot protect you.", "start": 2234.03, "end": 2240.05 }, { "text": "Our advice to you is to stay away from windows.", "start": 2241.31, "end": 2245.49 }, { "text": "But, she she's crazy.", "start": 2247.385, "end": 2250.345 }, { "text": "She was crazy enough to go say, okay, then, I'm going to face my enemies.", "start": 2250.345, "end": 2256.125 }, { "text": "I'm gonna go and face white supremacists in The US.", "start": 2256.1848, "end": 2259.4849 } ], "start": 2234.03, "end": 2259.4849, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And she went to march with white supremacists in Charlottesville back in '26 2017.", "start": 2260.18, "end": 2267.1602 }, { "text": "She actually, no.", "start": 2267.46, "end": 2268.82 }, { "text": "She didn't march with them.", "start": 2268.82, "end": 2269.86 }, { "text": "She walked with them and she filmed the marshes.", "start": 2269.86, "end": 2272.52 }, { "text": "And and there was this incredible story where after meeting with her, you know, she's been filming the the the founders of these neo Nazi groups.", "start": 2273.385, "end": 2282.5251 } ], "start": 2260.18, "end": 2282.5251, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They've been transformed with talking to her and having them, you know, look at her pictures as a kid, going into her first marches, anti fascist, anti racist, and telling them, do you want to deport me?", "start": 2283.7852, "end": 2300.385 }, { "text": "As a Muslim and brown woman, I represent the people you want to deport.", "start": 2300.465, "end": 2304.085 }, { "text": "And they said, no, you've become our friend.", "start": 2304.385, "end": 2306.965 }, { "text": "And there is this incredible, incredible transformation that at the end of the documentary, we two of them drop out of these movements and say we've been wrong.", "start": 2307.185, "end": 2318.78 }, { "text": "And now she, she goes with, with them to do talks and to speak about how this relationship that, that that was built between them, this new friendship, you know, is is really the antidote to fascism and the antidote to hatred.", "start": 2319.4, "end": 2335.145 } ], "start": 2283.7852, "end": 2335.145, "num_words": 129.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I love that so much.", "start": 2336.3252, "end": 2337.2852 }, { "text": "It's it's such a powerful example.", "start": 2337.2852, "end": 2339.145 }, { "text": "And I didn't know you were friends with Diya Khan.", "start": 2339.205, "end": 2341.125 }, { "text": "She's quite an inspiration.", "start": 2341.125, "end": 2342.64 }, { "text": "What I think is so exciting about some of these processes is that they actually create that sort of space deliberately and on much larger kind of scale.", "start": 2343.58, "end": 2353.1 } ], "start": 2336.3252, "end": 2353.1, "num_words": 53.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it doesn't require kind of the individual heroism of someone like Dia.", "start": 2353.1, "end": 2357.055 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2357.055, "end": 2357.555 }, { "text": "And and I wanna tell you about an example of famous process that I love the story of.", "start": 2357.7751, "end": 2362.2551 }, { "text": "It was called America in one room.", "start": 2362.2551, "end": 2364.115 }, { "text": "Happened in 2019 during the first Trump administration.", "start": 2364.735, "end": 2368.2 } ], "start": 2353.1, "end": 2368.2, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And it was actually a really polarizing moment.", "start": 2368.26, "end": 2370.5 }, { "text": "So the this whole thing took place over four days.", "start": 2370.5, "end": 2373.54 }, { "text": "It was a it was a process called deliberative polling.", "start": 2373.54, "end": 2376.26 }, { "text": "So it's slightly different to a citizen's assembly because they're not coming up with recommendations.", "start": 2376.26, "end": 2380.44 }, { "text": "They're they're taking ideas and and policy ideas and so on and and responding to them, but only after having had a chance to deliberate about them with one another.", "start": 2380.82, "end": 2391.415 } ], "start": 2368.26, "end": 2391.415, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So rather than just standard polling, you just go, do you agree with this or not?", "start": 2391.555, "end": 2395.575 }, { "text": "Deliberative polling, they do that first, and then you have a chance to talk to people who are not like you about it.", "start": 2395.635, "end": 2401.56 }, { "text": "And then they ask you again, and you see what changes.", "start": 2401.7, "end": 2404.52 } ], "start": 2391.555, "end": 2404.52, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 2405.06, "end": 2405.54 } ], "start": 2405.06, "end": 2405.54, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so in this, they had they had, 530 American citizens, representative of The US population on all key demographics, brought together in a conference suite in Dallas for four days.", "start": 2406.02, "end": 2416.8948 }, { "text": "And the day after, the final day of this, was the day that Nancy Pelosi launched the the impeachment proceedings against Trump.", "start": 2417.515, "end": 2425.515 }, { "text": "So just to remind us that, like, this was already a really polarized time.", "start": 2425.515, "end": 2429.66 }, { "text": "So the backdrop of this was not, like, not an easy moment to do this process.", "start": 2429.66, "end": 2433.8398 }, { "text": "But what happened and I think this draws out a lot of what you were saying.", "start": 2434.54, "end": 2438.7 } ], "start": 2406.02, "end": 2438.7, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, these randomly selected 530 people, because they're representative of the population, you had 30 people in there who explicitly self identified as extremely conservative.", "start": 2438.7, "end": 2450.0151 }, { "text": "And you had another 30 who explicitly self identified as extremely liberal.", "start": 2450.395, "end": 2454.655 }, { "text": "And that the rumor goes that the whole process nearly didn't go ahead because the insurance company tried to charge them too much to do the thing because they thought they were gonna kill each other.", "start": 2455.3298, "end": 2464.6099 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2464.6099, "end": 2464.8499 }, { "text": "Like, there's such fear of this.", "start": 2464.8499, "end": 2467.27 } ], "start": 2438.7, "end": 2467.27, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But in the event, two things happened that you've just kind of alluded to, but I can draw out a little bit more.", "start": 2467.5698, "end": 2475.305 }, { "text": "And the first is because out of 530, actually 60 holding fairly extreme views, very extreme views, isn't a very high percentage.", "start": 2475.605, "end": 2486.79 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2486.85, "end": 2487.09 }, { "text": "It's like 10 or 11%.", "start": 2487.09, "end": 2488.6301 }, { "text": "And and in social media world, where that's the only forum for conversation, those people dominate the conversation and make us all think that everyone is extreme.", "start": 2489.17, "end": 2500.075 } ], "start": 2467.5698, "end": 2500.075, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then the 80% in the middle shut up and 90% hide.", "start": 2500.935, "end": 2505.115 }, { "text": "And and whereas in this representative sampling, in a in deliberative polling or a citizen's assembly, they're only 10%.", "start": 2505.895, "end": 2512.5298 }, { "text": "And it becomes clear that they are not the majority.", "start": 2512.75, "end": 2515.0898 }, { "text": "So that's the first thing that happens.", "start": 2515.63, "end": 2517.17 }, { "text": "The second thing is that and I think you're alluding to this with the example of Diya really.", "start": 2517.5498, "end": 2522.8298 } ], "start": 2500.935, "end": 2522.8298, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, the the nature of the conversation, the the the encounter with people of different backgrounds is that that in itself is the best cure for polarization.", "start": 2522.8298, "end": 2533.445 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 2533.825, "end": 2534.3052 }, { "text": "And in the literature, there's there's on polarization, there are two kinds.", "start": 2534.3052, "end": 2537.585 }, { "text": "There's there's issue polarization where I disagree with Omicine about this issue, which very rarely happens.", "start": 2537.585, "end": 2544.39 } ], "start": 2522.8298, "end": 2544.39, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Should happen more often.", "start": 2546.21, "end": 2547.5098 } ], "start": 2546.21, "end": 2547.5098, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And then and then there's affective polarization where because I don't just disagree with you, like affective polarization is I think you're evil.", "start": 2548.6099, "end": 2557.275 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 2557.335, "end": 2557.835 }, { "text": "And the really fascinating thing in this process was that affective polarization went through the floor.", "start": 2557.9749, "end": 2564.315 }, { "text": "Like, and not just to the extent that that it went through the floor in the in the moment.", "start": 2565.03, "end": 2569.9102 }, { "text": "Like, there was a follow-up survey a year later, which basically found that that these 530 people, the vast majority of them, had actually become kind of depolarizers in their own communities.", "start": 2569.9102, "end": 2580.035 } ], "start": 2548.6099, "end": 2580.035, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Maybe not to the extent of deer, but but they were they were actively seeking to to build bridges in their own communities.", "start": 2580.035, "end": 2586.4548 }, { "text": "So I think this double impact of of reducing the noise from the extremes by by by making clear that they are not the majority and then creating the environment for this contact and this transformation are the two kind of core things that these processes do.", "start": 2586.595, "end": 2603.01 }, { "text": "David actually tells a story that really brings home how this happens.", "start": 2603.47, "end": 2606.835 }, { "text": "It's a really beautiful and powerful story, which we'll hear in a moment.", "start": 2606.915, "end": 2610.2148 }, { "text": "I think we need to get ourselves ready for a final conversation about just how replicable this is, like how far things like citizens assemblies can go to help save democracy.", "start": 2610.675, "end": 2618.695 } ], "start": 2580.035, "end": 2618.695, "num_words": 126.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we're gonna need to start challenging things a bit.", "start": 2619.12, "end": 2621.7002 }, { "text": "I started this at the event by raising the fact that while Ireland's assembly had been very active and up until 2022, there actually hasn't been so much in the last couple of years.", "start": 2622.32, "end": 2633.3 }, { "text": "Here's Art again.", "start": 2633.805, "end": 2634.785 } ], "start": 2619.12, "end": 2634.785, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A significant feature of all of those was at the program for government stage.", "start": 2635.325, "end": 2641.085 }, { "text": "It's when coalition parties sit down together and say, what do we think about what are we going to agree that we're going to do in the next term of five years?", "start": 2641.085, "end": 2649.54 }, { "text": "For the first three or four of those governments from, from 2011, there were always issues that they couldn't agree on.", "start": 2650.5, "end": 2659.4001 }, { "text": "And these tended to be some of these intractable political problems, things like climate change, things like abortion, marriage equality, illegal drug use, biodiversity loss, local government, and that kind of thing.", "start": 2659.46, "end": 2672.955 }, { "text": "The most recent government, as you you may know, is a follow on government from minus the Green Party.", "start": 2673.015, "end": 2680.315 } ], "start": 2635.325, "end": 2680.315, "num_words": 118.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And they they have been working with each other for so long, when they sat down at the parliament for government, they found, well, actually, Gerald, we have solutions to most of these problems in mind already.", "start": 2680.695, "end": 2690.1 }, { "text": "We have many, many problems in this country.", "start": 2690.48, "end": 2692.56 }, { "text": "If you open up any newspaper, you'll see housing and cost of living and health care and all of these things.", "start": 2692.56, "end": 2697.8948 }, { "text": "But the government has a plan for all of these issues.", "start": 2697.8948, "end": 2701.355 }, { "text": "And it probably wouldn't be the best use of the citizens assembly to say, well, actually, will you just go and and have a look at housing for us?", "start": 2701.6548, "end": 2709.4949 } ], "start": 2680.695, "end": 2709.4949, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We have a plan, but correct our homework, RC.", "start": 2709.4949, "end": 2711.55 }, { "text": "If you come up with something different, they are all they're already on a path.", "start": 2711.55, "end": 2714.85 }, { "text": "And David is a real expert on this.", "start": 2714.99, "end": 2716.9102 }, { "text": "Unlike countries who have gone the institutionalization route where they have permanent citizens' assemblies who are generating problems for themselves to solve.", "start": 2717.3901, "end": 2726.395 }, { "text": "Ours is a very top down system.", "start": 2726.775, "end": 2728.635 } ], "start": 2709.4949, "end": 2728.635, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, we do have big problems.", "start": 2728.855, "end": 2730.235 }, { "text": "We like every society, we have huge problems.", "start": 2730.695, "end": 2733.175 }, { "text": "We we are facing the same threats to our democracy that every other country is.", "start": 2733.175, "end": 2736.695 }, { "text": "We might be a little bit behind, but we're catching up fast.", "start": 2736.695, "end": 2739.195 }, { "text": "And, you know, some of us have been urgently, ever increasingly urgently calling for further deliberative processes to address big questions that are coming down the tracks.", "start": 2739.46, "end": 2747.8 } ], "start": 2728.855, "end": 2747.8, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, what kind of Ireland do we want for the twenty first century?", "start": 2747.86, "end": 2750.68 }, { "text": "How do we deal with the issue of migration in a in a civilized way?", "start": 2750.98, "end": 2754.645 }, { "text": "How do we deal with racism?", "start": 2754.645, "end": 2756.0051 }, { "text": "What are the correct solutions?", "start": 2756.0051, "end": 2757.225 }, { "text": "You know, and and more and more of those.", "start": 2757.605, "end": 2759.045 } ], "start": 2747.86, "end": 2759.045, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So we definitely have the big problems.", "start": 2759.045, "end": 2760.745 }, { "text": "A lot of what Art says, I agree with.", "start": 2761.045, "end": 2762.965 }, { "text": "I mean, you know, we have these two parties that are now in coalition that, much as they might deny it, are quite comfortable.", "start": 2762.965, "end": 2768.98 }, { "text": "Originally, they were the same party back in the nineteen twenties.", "start": 2768.98, "end": 2771.5398 }, { "text": "So, you know, that's maybe where they end up eventually.", "start": 2771.5398, "end": 2774.52 } ], "start": 2759.045, "end": 2774.52, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But the difference is there's no small party in the mix that are, you know, put a little bit of dirt in the in the in the machinery.", "start": 2774.8198, "end": 2782.625 } ], "start": 2774.8198, "end": 2782.625, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gritting the oyster.", "start": 2782.625, "end": 2783.425 } ], "start": 2782.625, "end": 2783.425, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2783.425, "end": 2783.585 }, { "text": "Gritting the oyster, whatever it is.", "start": 2783.585, "end": 2784.625 }, { "text": "And it's it's from there that you get the potential perhaps for a citizens' assembly to take root.", "start": 2784.625, "end": 2789.265 }, { "text": "That doesn't help.", "start": 2789.265, "end": 2790.325 }, { "text": "We lost two two referendums that were defeated last year on care and family.", "start": 2790.705, "end": 2794.885 } ], "start": 2783.425, "end": 2794.885, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "One of them had the worst referendum defeat in the history of our referendums.", "start": 2795.0, "end": 2797.98 }, { "text": "They both followed the gender citizens assembly.", "start": 2798.52, "end": 2800.92 }, { "text": "They were seen by the government as recommendations of the citizens assembly.", "start": 2800.92, "end": 2804.52 }, { "text": "It's a more long winded story, which is that the wording that was presented was not the wording that was recommended.", "start": 2804.52, "end": 2809.9 }, { "text": "It was a big defeat, but nevertheless, there's a sort of sense among some in the political class perhaps that it didn't work on this occasion.", "start": 2810.115, "end": 2817.235 } ], "start": 2795.0, "end": 2817.235, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 2817.235, "end": 2817.395 }, { "text": "The language changed, and it became known that the language had changed.", "start": 2817.395, "end": 2821.395 }, { "text": "And I think people were confused by what had happened.", "start": 2821.395, "end": 2825.29 }, { "text": "And I think where you have confusion, people just reject.", "start": 2825.29, "end": 2827.95 } ], "start": 2817.235, "end": 2827.95, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I know And I mean, we don't know We have no way of knowing why it failed.", "start": 2828.17, "end": 2831.53 }, { "text": "And it will have failed They will have failed for multiple reasons.", "start": 2831.53, "end": 2834.33 }, { "text": "But the language changed, and it's more than It's it's there's more nuance to it.", "start": 2834.33, "end": 2837.585 }, { "text": "It's not just the language recommended by the Citizens Assembly.", "start": 2837.585, "end": 2840.325 }, { "text": "The same language was recommended by the special parliamentary committee that was established to report on the Citizens Assembly, which it was what happened in the abortion case.", "start": 2840.545, "end": 2848.32 } ], "start": 2828.17, "end": 2848.32, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So citizens assembly, Parl special par all party parliamentary committee recommended the language of the citizens assembly.", "start": 2848.6401, "end": 2854.8 }, { "text": "Then it took a year before the government finally came word forward with wording, which was so watered down that it didn't reflect what was going on.", "start": 2854.8, "end": 2862.6748 }, { "text": "One final thing on this, which is why I think these referendums are significant, is because the last government in its program for government had recommended one more citizens assembly on educational reform.", "start": 2862.6748, "end": 2872.855 }, { "text": "And all the people in this sector were beefing up for it, and a plan and position paper is ready.", "start": 2873.54, "end": 2878.26 }, { "text": "There was going to be a citizens assembly on educational reform.", "start": 2878.26, "end": 2881.38 } ], "start": 2848.6401, "end": 2881.38, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The government ran out of time.", "start": 2881.38, "end": 2883.16 }, { "text": "The new government that was elected in its program for government is now proposing to establish a forum on education.", "start": 2883.3, "end": 2889.825 }, { "text": "The citizens' assembly is not being used for this particular purpose.", "start": 2890.365, "end": 2893.505 }, { "text": "So so they've dropped it.", "start": 2893.645, "end": 2895.405 }, { "text": "As Art said, it could come back again in the future, but certainly this government has has gone cold on it.", "start": 2895.405, "end": 2900.64 } ], "start": 2881.38, "end": 2900.64, "num_words": 63.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You would have to ask yourself, was it the most suitable subject for our citizens assembly?", "start": 2901.2798, "end": 2906.18 }, { "text": "We did biodiversity loss.", "start": 2906.4, "end": 2907.8398 }, { "text": "You know, how do we solve the biodiversity loss crisis?", "start": 2907.8398, "end": 2910.3398 }, { "text": "And that was as big a subject as I would ever hope to have to do again.", "start": 2910.72, "end": 2914.98 }, { "text": "It was enormous, and it was almost too much for the citizens to cope with.", "start": 2915.0398, "end": 2919.5552 } ], "start": 2901.2798, "end": 2919.5552, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Education, when you think of preschool, primary, secondary, third level, lifelong education, big deal with groups facing educational barriers, etcetera.", "start": 2919.695, "end": 2928.5952 }, { "text": "The first assembly that they ran in Scotland, you'll remember this one.", "start": 2929.4302, "end": 2932.81 }, { "text": "John, what kind of Scotland do you want to live in?", "start": 2933.1902, "end": 2936.33 }, { "text": "Some things are just too big to be answered because the only subjects that should be given to a citizens assembly are meaty policy issues where you have multiple possible options.", "start": 2936.6301, "end": 2948.515 }, { "text": "The Citizens Assembly in Scotland came back with, we'd like, better education, less crime, more equality, houses for everyone, health care, la la la.", "start": 2948.735, "end": 2957.16 } ], "start": 2919.695, "end": 2957.16, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "No good.", "start": 2957.48, "end": 2958.14 }, { "text": "No use at at all to any government, and they have learned their lessons.", "start": 2958.3599, "end": 2962.28 }, { "text": "And at the other end, binary questions don't suit either.", "start": 2962.28, "end": 2965.5598 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 2965.5598, "end": 2965.96 }, { "text": "So, the our first constitutional convention looked at the length of the presidential term, which is relevant now.", "start": 2965.96, "end": 2972.405 } ], "start": 2957.48, "end": 2972.405, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 2972.405, "end": 2972.725 }, { "text": "So should it be reduced from seven years to five years?", "start": 2972.725, "end": 2975.7651 }, { "text": "And our citizens said, well, no.", "start": 2975.7651, "end": 2978.485 }, { "text": "We should keep it at seven years because every president should get the opportunity to serve over two governments.", "start": 2978.485, "end": 2984.01 }, { "text": "You know, so two different governments.", "start": 2984.09, "end": 2985.53 } ], "start": 2972.405, "end": 2985.53, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and that was fair enough.", "start": 2985.53, "end": 2987.37 }, { "text": "But they went off to make recommendations on the nomination process, campaign funding limits, the age of candidacy for the presidency, etcetera.", "start": 2987.37, "end": 2994.51 }, { "text": "There is no such thing as a binary question for a group of 100 people.", "start": 2994.81, "end": 2998.59 } ], "start": 2985.53, "end": 2998.59, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I think we've gotten stuck in this idea that it has to be national and it has to be a huge problem.", "start": 2998.715, "end": 3004.335 }, { "text": "You know, there's a local government system in Ireland that is ripe for citizens assemblies, mini publics, for deeper, more meaningful consultation and participation.", "start": 3005.035, "end": 3015.82 }, { "text": "Like, I even see in my own council, and I I've received the same old, you know, we're looking for your participation in this process, public engagement.", "start": 3016.4402, "end": 3024.86 }, { "text": "It's they've already decided everything, and they want me just to kind of I don't know what they want me to do, to be honest.", "start": 3024.9202, "end": 3030.4648 }, { "text": "I'm not sure what I'm asked to do, so I end up doing nothing, because I go, well, it's already decided.", "start": 3030.4648, "end": 3034.9648 } ], "start": 2998.715, "end": 3034.9648, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, there's there's there's an opportunity, I think, for super local things, and I think this is the antidote to an awful lot of the problems that we see in communities that are very specific to particular communities.", "start": 3035.265, "end": 3047.44 }, { "text": "You know, if you come to my local community, I live in rural Mead.", "start": 3047.66, "end": 3050.8 }, { "text": "You know, if you go to Phibbsboro where I used to live, very different set of issues, very different set of challenges, very different set of opinions about how they should be solved.", "start": 3051.02, "end": 3060.2852 }, { "text": "So I think that there's a we're missing a trick in bringing it to a very local level.", "start": 3060.2852, "end": 3066.205 }, { "text": "And I think it's going to be the antidote to mistrust, to fear, to that rising kind of sense of them and us, etcetera, in in Ireland.", "start": 3066.205, "end": 3075.11 } ], "start": 3035.265, "end": 3075.11, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think that if we can bring communities, representative of those communities, get people in a room and realize, they're all not so bad actually at all.", "start": 3075.11, "end": 3083.505 } ], "start": 3075.11, "end": 3083.505, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "At this point, we got into questions from the audience, and there were some really great comments and challenges.", "start": 3083.585, "end": 3088.4849 }, { "text": "How do you justify the cost of these things?", "start": 3088.865, "end": 3090.9648 }, { "text": "What are the risks?", "start": 3091.025, "end": 3092.005 }, { "text": "If governments don't actually take on the recommendations that are produced, what can that do?", "start": 3092.3848, "end": 3097.285 }, { "text": "Can this work even when issues are closely tied to religious and cultural identity?", "start": 3097.52, "end": 3101.54 } ], "start": 3083.585, "end": 3101.54, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And there was a question about time and how long things like this take.", "start": 3102.0798, "end": 3105.7 }, { "text": "But cost first.", "start": 3106.24, "end": 3107.54 } ], "start": 3102.0798, "end": 3107.54, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The German community parliament established a permanent citizens assembly.", "start": 3107.8398, "end": 3111.8599 }, { "text": "And it was David van Reibroek invited a bunch of us to come and sit down for four days to talk about how would you create a permanent citizens assembly for this community.", "start": 3112.085, "end": 3119.2249 }, { "text": "And I remember at one point we then met with the it was the chair of the parliament who'd invited us.", "start": 3119.525, "end": 3124.4248 }, { "text": "And we put the question to him.", "start": 3124.6401, "end": 3125.6802 }, { "text": "We said, you know, you're gonna get criticized for this.", "start": 3125.6802, "end": 3128.0 } ], "start": 3107.8398, "end": 3128.0, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You're gonna set up a permanent citizens assembly.", "start": 3128.0, "end": 3129.94 }, { "text": "You know, it's an entity that will produce citizens' assemblies on specific topics two or three a year from here on out.", "start": 3130.72, "end": 3137.12 }, { "text": "You're gonna get criticized for the cost.", "start": 3137.12, "end": 3138.72 }, { "text": "And he said, well look, we set up the panel reviews all the time.", "start": 3138.72, "end": 3142.355 }, { "text": "We have expert panels, expert reviews.", "start": 3142.355, "end": 3144.455 } ], "start": 3128.0, "end": 3144.455, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We commission all sorts of research, a lot of which just sits on on shelves and isn't listened to.", "start": 3144.515, "end": 3149.795 }, { "text": "But we're spending from a budget we're going to use the same access to to pay for this.", "start": 3149.795, "end": 3155.3 }, { "text": "So it doesn't have to cost more money.", "start": 3155.3, "end": 3156.82 }, { "text": "We're just using it in a different way.", "start": 3156.82, "end": 3158.42 }, { "text": "And meanwhile, we're engaging with our citizens.", "start": 3158.42, "end": 3160.52 } ], "start": 3144.515, "end": 3160.52, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I believe that if we had started our assembly process without having a guarantee from government that they were going to act on our recommendations, the entire process might have risked feeling like a big waste of time.", "start": 3161.06, "end": 3176.395 } ], "start": 3161.06, "end": 3176.395, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's the thing.", "start": 3176.535, "end": 3177.175 }, { "text": "You know, they they respond to citizens' assembly reports saying, here's all the recommendations that we're going to accept.", "start": 3177.175, "end": 3183.0 }, { "text": "Here's when they're going to be implemented.", "start": 3183.24, "end": 3184.78 }, { "text": "And more importantly, here's the ones that we're not going to accept, and here's the reason why.", "start": 3185.0, "end": 3189.48 }, { "text": "And a great example of that is the gender equality recommendation.", "start": 3189.48, "end": 3193.34 } ], "start": 3176.535, "end": 3193.34, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "The citizens recommended that the taxes would be raised in order to pay for the implementation of these widespread recommendations because all of them felt they took a vote amongst themselves.", "start": 3193.88, "end": 3205.1448 }, { "text": "I would be willing to pay more tax to see my recommendations implemented.", "start": 3205.365, "end": 3208.9849 }, { "text": "And the government stepped back from that and said, well, actually, no.", "start": 3209.16, "end": 3212.0398 }, { "text": "We're we're not going to accept this recommendation because if we're going to raise taxes, we've got wider considerations.", "start": 3212.0398, "end": 3217.8198 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 3218.0398, "end": 3218.5999 } ], "start": 3193.88, "end": 3218.5999, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We might like to build a children's hospital Yeah.", "start": 3218.5999, "end": 3220.68 }, { "text": "Or build roads, more teachers, nurses, etcetera.", "start": 3220.8398, "end": 3223.18 }, { "text": "But but they explained it.", "start": 3223.835, "end": 3225.1948 }, { "text": "They came into a special debate in the chamber and said, this is our answer to your recommendation.", "start": 3225.1948, "end": 3230.7349 }, { "text": "Mightn't like it, but they understood it.", "start": 3231.115, "end": 3232.795 } ], "start": 3218.5999, "end": 3232.795, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3232.795, "end": 3233.035 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 3233.035, "end": 3233.515 }, { "text": "And interestingly and perhaps ironically, this does introduce a sense of discipline amongst the citizens because they know if they introduce wacky recommendations that, it's gonna make them look foolish and, they're not going to be implemented anyway.", "start": 3233.515, "end": 3248.0598 }, { "text": "So the, there is a responsibility on them to come up with very real ones.", "start": 3248.0598, "end": 3252.315 } ], "start": 3232.795, "end": 3252.315, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, what what do you do when the issues are tied to your identity?", "start": 3252.395, "end": 3255.375 }, { "text": "So how I'm gonna choose to interpret that in relation to the abortion referendum is, for example, some of the members would have been very hard no, and nothing was going to change their mind.", "start": 3255.435, "end": 3268.09 }, { "text": "If they had been in the assembly for ten years, they were never gonna change their mind because they had a fundamental moral core values and identity related to being very strong Catholics, and there was no way that they were going to change their minds on that.", "start": 3268.6301, "end": 3283.375 }, { "text": "They were in the significant minority, but there was one or two at my tables over the weekends.", "start": 3283.375, "end": 3288.835 }, { "text": "And what happened at those kind of round tables was these people tended to be quite quiet.", "start": 3289.215, "end": 3294.675 } ], "start": 3252.395, "end": 3294.675, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 3295.37, "end": 3295.9302 }, { "text": "They didn't really contribute to the discussion very much because a no is a no.", "start": 3295.9302, "end": 3300.75 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 3301.1301, "end": 3301.53 }, { "text": "It was there wasn't any opportunity to to talk about it.", "start": 3301.53, "end": 3305.77 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 3305.77, "end": 3306.09 } ], "start": 3295.37, "end": 3306.09, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'm I'm not trying to dismiss what they were saying, and I can understand.", "start": 3306.09, "end": 3308.6702 }, { "text": "You know, and it was a struggle.", "start": 3309.405, "end": 3310.685 }, { "text": "I felt sorry sometimes for the facilitator trying to invite them in and trying to encourage them to speak.", "start": 3310.685, "end": 3315.485 }, { "text": "And, you know, they're like, I just I don't agree.", "start": 3315.485, "end": 3318.225 }, { "text": "And I had spoken to several people who were in the maybe leaning towards no and then in the hard no.", "start": 3318.365, "end": 3324.63 } ], "start": 3306.09, "end": 3324.63, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And one man in particular, I asked him afterwards.", "start": 3324.7898, "end": 3327.5898 }, { "text": "I said, how do you feel about the outcome?", "start": 3327.5898, "end": 3329.67 }, { "text": "And he said he said, I'm not happy with the outcome.", "start": 3329.67, "end": 3332.25 }, { "text": "He said, but I came and I represented.", "start": 3332.39, "end": 3334.3298 }, { "text": "He said, and I I felt that it was a very well run process.", "start": 3334.7898, "end": 3338.65 } ], "start": 3324.7898, "end": 3338.65, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Let me give you a story from the from from the convention, the Finbar story.", "start": 3338.8252, "end": 3342.5251 }, { "text": "So the convention where they're discussing a gay marriage.", "start": 3342.5852, "end": 3345.145 }, { "text": "This is written up in a beautiful piece written by German journalist who interviewed the principals involved, and it's been translated.", "start": 3345.145, "end": 3350.985 }, { "text": "It's readily available on the Internet.", "start": 3350.985, "end": 3352.7651 }, { "text": "Finbar, who was a truck driver stroke postman, who told us and said when doing so that this was the first time he'd done it in public, that he'd been abused as a young boy and he blamed gay people for this.", "start": 3353.17, "end": 3366.31 } ], "start": 3338.8252, "end": 3366.31, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "He kept referring to them.", "start": 3366.665, "end": 3367.705 }, { "text": "I think he referred them as gay people or such such language.", "start": 3367.705, "end": 3370.685 }, { "text": "He was very homophobic.", "start": 3370.905, "end": 3372.125 }, { "text": "Openly, you know, readily admitted to this.", "start": 3372.505, "end": 3375.325 }, { "text": "At the first weekend, we sat at the same table with, what was his name?", "start": 3375.625, "end": 3380.025 } ], "start": 3366.665, "end": 3380.025, "num_words": 43.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Chris.", "start": 3380.025, "end": 3380.46 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3380.7, "end": 3380.8599 }, { "text": "Chris Lyons.", "start": 3380.8599, "end": 3381.66 } ], "start": 3380.025, "end": 3381.66, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Chris, who was very much of the opposite including wanted to portray the fact that he was not only gay, he was going to be, relive it, you know.", "start": 3381.66, "end": 3388.22 }, { "text": "So he was he was dressed to kill and and, you know, amazing.", "start": 3388.22, "end": 3392.0 } ], "start": 3381.66, "end": 3392.0, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Painted nails, earrings, the whole works.", "start": 3392.06, "end": 3394.425 } ], "start": 3392.06, "end": 3394.425, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and equally aggressive on the other side, but neither knew the position of the other.", "start": 3394.585, "end": 3398.445 }, { "text": "And Finbar, in his interview, talked about how he, at one point, thought he was going to have to get up and hit him.", "start": 3398.745, "end": 3403.325 }, { "text": "He felt so visceral.", "start": 3403.465, "end": 3405.085 }, { "text": "His hate for this person.", "start": 3405.145, "end": 3406.445 }, { "text": "By the end of the process, they became really good friends, but the big point was on the on the closing moment of the discussion about gay marriage, which was not the first topic that had been discussed when the microphones were going around in the plenary session.", "start": 3406.74, "end": 3420.36 } ], "start": 3394.585, "end": 3420.36, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Finbar for the very first time asked for the in his he asked for the mic to stand up and make a public statement.", "start": 3420.565, "end": 3426.745 }, { "text": "And that's when he told the story about what had happened to him and said that he was going to vote for gay marriage.", "start": 3426.885, "end": 3431.5251 } ], "start": 3420.565, "end": 3431.5251, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wow.", "start": 3431.5251, "end": 3432.0251 } ], "start": 3431.5251, "end": 3432.0251, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And that was, you know, that's strong ideological divide as you can guess.", "start": 3432.5, "end": 3436.3398 } ], "start": 3432.5, "end": 3436.3398, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 4 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is all about design, you know.", "start": 3436.3398, "end": 3438.26 }, { "text": "All of the members have to go on a journey.", "start": 3438.26, "end": 3441.16 }, { "text": "They have to be willing to walk in the other person's shoes.", "start": 3441.54, "end": 3444.5999 }, { "text": "Chris and Finbar, I still talk to them.", "start": 3444.8198, "end": 3446.42 }, { "text": "I talk to them regularly.", "start": 3446.42, "end": 3447.64 } ], "start": 3436.3398, "end": 3447.64, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There was a film crew from Hollywood in town in May to film the pair of them talking about their journey.", "start": 3447.935, "end": 3455.775 }, { "text": "There'll be a documentary on Netflix sometime early next year capturing this journey.", "start": 3455.775, "end": 3462.23 }, { "text": "That moment that David described, that was the mic drop moment.", "start": 3462.29, "end": 3465.35 }, { "text": "That was the moment in the room where people said, actually, do you know what?", "start": 3465.6501, "end": 3469.51 }, { "text": "Marriage equality.", "start": 3469.6501, "end": 3470.53 } ], "start": 3447.935, "end": 3470.53, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, is that we recognize you have come from a very dark place to being open to consider an alternative, you know, and I'm sure you came across this, Louise, as well.", "start": 3470.53, "end": 3481.745 }, { "text": "So it it it was extraordinary.", "start": 3481.745, "end": 3483.605 } ], "start": 3470.53, "end": 3483.605, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think what all", "start": 3483.665, "end": 3484.3052 } ], "start": 3483.665, "end": 3484.3052, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "of these processes do is they help to build empathy, and they help to build awareness of other, of the other's experience, of it helps to just kinda lift the lid on your own little kind of world and go, oh, you know, that's how it might be for somebody over there.", "start": 3484.3052, "end": 3504.325 }, { "text": "I never even thought of it like that.", "start": 3504.325, "end": 3505.765 }, { "text": "Oh, I never thought of it like that either.", "start": 3505.765, "end": 3507.765 }, { "text": "So it's and that's how we build trust.", "start": 3507.765, "end": 3511.065 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 3511.285, "end": 3511.6848 } ], "start": 3484.3052, "end": 3511.6848, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "That's how we build relationships.", "start": 3511.6848, "end": 3513.2249 }, { "text": "It's by being able to have space to see what it's like from another perspective.", "start": 3513.525, "end": 3519.1 }, { "text": "And a citizens assembly, the roundtable discussions allow for that.", "start": 3519.24, "end": 3522.76 } ], "start": 3511.6848, "end": 3522.76, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nothing succeeds like success.", "start": 3522.76, "end": 3524.3801 }, { "text": "You have to start somewhere.", "start": 3524.6, "end": 3525.8801 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 3525.8801, "end": 3526.36 }, { "text": "You know, you can't say, well, people won't trust it, so we'll never do it.", "start": 3526.36, "end": 3529.725 }, { "text": "That you have to start somewhere.", "start": 3529.8052, "end": 3531.425 } ], "start": 3522.76, "end": 3531.425, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "For our first constitutional convention, one in 40 people said yes when they were asked to be involved.", "start": 3531.645, "end": 3538.945 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 3539.0852, "end": 3539.485 }, { "text": "So knock on the door.", "start": 3539.485, "end": 3540.925 }, { "text": "We have a brilliant opportunity for you.", "start": 3540.925, "end": 3542.685 }, { "text": "You could come and spend ten weekends in in a room with 99 other people for no money, to answer some questions that the government thinks are important.", "start": 3542.685, "end": 3549.94 } ], "start": 3531.645, "end": 3549.94, "num_words": 60.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know?", "start": 3550.0, "end": 3550.4001 }, { "text": "So they had doors slammed in their faces.", "start": 3550.4001, "end": 3552.4001 }, { "text": "And, finally, you know, the one of the, citizens who got the knock on the door was so disturbed by this preposterous notion that they rang the police and said, somebody's casing my joint, you know, because they came with an idea that was so preposterous.", "start": 3552.4001, "end": 3566.775 }, { "text": "It's it's preposterous.", "start": 3566.995, "end": 3567.815 }, { "text": "It's not believable.", "start": 3568.035, "end": 3568.855 } ], "start": 3550.0, "end": 3568.855, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And but nothing succeeds like success.", "start": 3569.155, "end": 3571.495 }, { "text": "Marriage equality, abortion, climate change.", "start": 3571.635, "end": 3573.895 }, { "text": "And the final thing I would say, I know I've spoken a lot, but, they, we we're always asking our citizens questions.", "start": 3573.955, "end": 3580.65 }, { "text": "You know, our biodiversity loss, citizens on their first day, the 100 of them arrived in.", "start": 3580.65, "end": 3587.21 }, { "text": "We asked them why they got involved.", "start": 3587.21, "end": 3589.15 } ], "start": 3569.155, "end": 3589.15, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Why did you agree to spend what turned out to be eight weekends in a year, with 99 other people?", "start": 3589.185, "end": 3595.985 }, { "text": "So about a third of them said they were interested in the subject.", "start": 3595.985, "end": 3600.0051 }, { "text": "About a third of them saw it as, a public service.", "start": 3600.5452, "end": 3604.645 }, { "text": "My favorite third were the people who said citizens' assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done.", "start": 3605.07, "end": 3611.6501 } ], "start": 3589.185, "end": 3611.6501, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 3 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "There were a lot of lovely moments in that event, but that one was a real mic drop.", "start": 3615.3901, "end": 3619.73 }, { "text": "Citizens assemblies are how Ireland gets hard jobs done.", "start": 3620.265, "end": 3623.9648 }, { "text": "Can they be how every country, every city gets hard jobs done?", "start": 3624.1848, "end": 3627.7249 } ], "start": 3615.3901, "end": 3627.7249, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think so.", "start": 3627.785, "end": 3628.6848 }, { "text": "It's like this couple go into the therapist and and I get I guess and the therapist office would be that safe space where they can have, the tough conversations.", "start": 3628.9048, "end": 3638.8298 }, { "text": "But in the beginning, they slowly need to build this trust with the therapist that could help them back, build the trust again with each other to face these tough conversations.", "start": 3638.97, "end": 3648.8298 }, { "text": "And I think citizens assemblies, or at least this Irish example show that it's possible and that's what we need for our democracy.", "start": 3650.925, "end": 3659.5051 }, { "text": "Build the the trust back in a safe space where rules are clearly clear and where, conversations can happen in a respectful manner and that we're here to solve the 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America in one room.", "start": 3684.0452, "end": 3692.79 }, { "text": "He talks about democracy under good conditions.", "start": 3693.49, "end": 3696.07 } ], "start": 3684.0452, "end": 3696.07, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I wasn't sure at the beginning of this.", "start": 3697.89, "end": 3699.65 }, { "text": "To be honest, like, I I I wanted to be the devil's advocate.", "start": 3699.65, "end": 3703.03 }, { "text": "To challenge you and your beliefs.", "start": 3703.665, "end": 3706.245 }, { "text": "And I like that.", "start": 3706.5452, "end": 3707.5251 }, { "text": "I I like that they aren't all sane.", "start": 3707.585, "end": 3709.5051 } ], "start": 3697.89, "end": 3709.5051, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's just one exact type of process.", "start": 3709.5051, "end": 3711.845 }, { "text": "But I think the principle of this approach is something that we can work, with everywhere.", "start": 3712.305, "end": 3717.7651 }, { "text": "At the core of it, it's this understanding that citizens aren't stupid.", "start": 3718.465, "end": 3722.98 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 3723.04, "end": 3723.54 }, { "text": "That they can take on the big questions.", "start": 3723.76, "end": 3725.7 } ], "start": 3709.5051, "end": 3725.7, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I mean, I grew up hearing that citizens are stupid.", "start": 3726.4001, "end": 3729.2 }, { "text": "You know, in Tunisia, it's it's like what dictatorship tells you.", "start": 3729.2, "end": 3733.7 }, { "text": "And, the next generation started a revolution.", "start": 3735.165, "end": 3738.145 }, { "text": "Period.", "start": 3738.925, "end": 3739.425 }, { "text": "Treating people people like they don't know better can only backlash.", "start": 3739.965, "end": 3743.585 } ], "start": 3726.4001, "end": 3743.585, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Look at what's happening with Gen Z protests.", "start": 3744.2852, "end": 3746.625 }, { "text": "You know, youth led movements in the streets of Serbia, Kenya, Nepal, Peru, Morocco, and Madagascar.", "start": 3747.245, "end": 3754.07 }, { "text": "They are asking not only for improvements to living conditions, but also for broader changes in government accountability.", "start": 3754.8499, "end": 3761.5898 }, { "text": "They're asking for equality and the fight against corruption.", "start": 3762.3699, "end": 3765.19 }, { "text": "They are tired of of their government's negligence.", "start": 3765.65, "end": 3767.775 } ], "start": 3744.2852, "end": 3767.775, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "They they are tired of unrealistic policies and and and the lack of economic opportunity.", "start": 3768.635, "end": 3773.055 }, { "text": "In Morocco, for example, a collective called Gen Z twelve I mean, 212, it's like the telephone codes for Morocco.", "start": 3773.595, "end": 3781.54 }, { "text": "212.", "start": 3781.76, "end": 3782.82 }, { "text": "They criticize high youth unemployment, but they also talk about poor education and healthcare systems.", "start": 3783.84, "end": 3790.5 }, { "text": "This is happening everywhere.", "start": 3792.015, "end": 3793.395 } ], "start": 3768.635, "end": 3793.395, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And and these processes could provide the way those ideas can be heard, not just rejected, leaving us collapsing into strongman leaders.", "start": 3793.855, "end": 3802.675 } ], "start": 3793.855, "end": 3802.675, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I totally agree.", "start": 3803.535, "end": 3804.415 }, { "text": "This this about trusting citizens enough to put the time and resource into creating spaces where they can really be heard.", "start": 3804.415, "end": 3811.33 }, { "text": "Reversing that cycle of distrust that we seem to be in.", "start": 3811.95, "end": 3815.17 }, { "text": "It was really such a joy to host that event, especially in this moment in time.", "start": 3815.63, "end": 3820.185 }, { "text": "It made me feel genuinely hopeful.", "start": 3820.585, "end": 3822.345 } ], "start": 3803.535, "end": 3822.345, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "These things can work.", "start": 3822.345, "end": 3823.7852 }, { "text": "We can save democracy.", "start": 3823.7852, "end": 3825.245 } ], "start": 3822.345, "end": 3825.245, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "This is How to Save Democracy, the podcast for people who love democracy, but know we've got serious work to do to save it.", "start": 3828.665, "end": 3835.47 }, { "text": "This episode was hosted by John Alexander and me, Omezi Inhifa, and produced by Joe Barrett.", "start": 3836.03, "end": 3841.65 }, { "text": "The studio engineer was Kristin Kabwicka.", "start": 3841.71, "end": 3843.89 } ], "start": 3828.665, "end": 3843.89, "num_words": 46.0, 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How do we deal with racism? 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