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So thank you for joining us. Excited to share this conversation with you. We're inviting you to join us in our work in a spirit of radical experimentation and radical imagination as we prototype a future we can actually look forward to with an incredible network of innovators all over the world. One of those innovators is Max Seminchuk. Max is the program director of the Web three Institute. Web three Institute is part sandbox, part incubator, and think tank. It's it's an entity that's focused on fueling the digital economy in Ukraine by developing the Web three space, and, the Web three Institute works at the intersection of government, academia, and the private sector to support, you know, more exchange and and interaction and cooperation across those sectors in service of digital innovation and the Web three ecosystem in Ukraine. So, welcome, Max. Thank you for joining us. Greetings, everybody. Thanks for having me. Max, you please introduce yourself and, the Web3 Institute. What are you trying to achieve? Yeah. Sure. Well, I began my career in design and software development. And, in '23 2010, I built my company, mostly doing product development and management. And around, 2016, I learned about the the DAO, initial, DAO experiment in the like, it made me really curious about the whole blockchain space, and that's where our company is also starting to develop more. And it was so noble, like, I started to research it and participate in the global conferences, organize meetups. But in, 2020, the COVID struck. Right? And, all the global travel stopped. And, I was really worried about what gonna happen, you know, in my country and so on. And I tried to apply the ideas I learned from this distributed DAO movement to the Ukraine situation, mostly to the coordination of online volunteering and helping hospitals and so on. And, that's when I understood that in the time of crisis, only the, you know, trusted connections work, only the established processes work, because everybody everybody shut down and try to, you know, just to survive. And, when we try to, you know, we applied some innovation with some success. But what I really felt is if we want to make this impact more scalable, we need to integrate into the governance, into the government, in the municipalities, and so on. So just around the time, also, the new ministry was formed and the team that was leading the development of the regulation for crypto and virtual assets. So I joined the team as an adviser and, for, like, my first big project was in developing the, like, strategy. And I couldn't develop strategy just by my own. So we invited, like, different ministries, types of businesses, NGOs, and so on to form a strategy. And one of the key pillars of the strategy was, education that we need to prepare people for, you know, like government wants customer protection, consumer protection, businesses needs users, you know, so we all needed to spread the knowledge. And, that's how the Web3 Institute came to be. You know, we, gathered all these volunteers and businesses. And, with the support from the Mindich, ministry, we formed this entity that is, now, focusing on developing the field. And our vision, in in in the strategy, we, have a metaphor of digital Venice in the terms of, like, both democracy and prosperity that Venice that was, like, on the on the peak at some moment, but also was like really interesting, like, organization. So, more specifically, especially in the time of war, we focus on the, all the projects and ideas that can support recovery, security. We strive towards interoperability, like, with European Union in terms of documents and so on, economic social governance impact, so not forget about that as well. So that's briefly what we do. And so just to to go back there, you said MINDIT, which is the Ministry of Digital Transformation. Of Ukraine. Yes. Yes. It's how we shorten it. Yeah. Yeah. Look. I'm sure we're gonna get it run into a lot acronyms, but just to to clarify that one, the Ministry of Digital Transformation in Ukraine, has actually been attracting a lot of attention, and, it's it's curious. You know? Like, some might imagine that there are more urgent priorities for a nation which is, you know, four years into a, you know, very, all consuming war, but it's been threatened, invaded for more than ten years. How and why did supporting Web three and supporting the development of of blockchain and, how did that digital innovation become a critical part of the, the driving force of government in Ukraine today? Yeah. Sure. And I agree that, building strong defenses is our first priority. Also for the ministry, a lot of projects have moved there. And even what we do is virtual assets, like fundraising for Ukraine in crypto or restricting access to, you know, like, to exchanges from, like, terrorist groups and so on. But to give a wider context, like, when I was born, the population of Ukraine was 52,000,000, and now it's closer to 37 millions reside in Ukraine, and it's declining almost, like, 1% every year. And, just with, in the last years, like, 6,000,000 people were forcefully moved abroad. And I know it like my my I'm was born in Lugansk, and my parents had to leave back in 2014. You know? So it's a huge problem for sure. But now there is, like, almost 25,000,000 of Ukrainians are outside of Ukraine, like, the broad diaspora. It's almost, you know, it's soon to be as as, same level as in Ukraine. And, also, the war times, they put more pressure on the democracy. Of course, there are reasons for that, but, I mean, lots of things are restricted and harder to do. And, how do we engage this those who are reside abroad and deal overall with economic, hardships and aging population. So, basically, this is, not just to survive the war, but to build a country desirable for the young to stay or for, like, others to return. And, in my view, sustainable future should include measures on better coordination, integration, new institution where I believe Web3 is contributing to. Ukraine has, you know, absolutely, you know, taken digital innovation as a key priority because in 2024, Ukraine was ranked first in the world in UN's e participation index, you know, up from fifty seventh in the world in in 2022. So that framework's looking at these different aspects of of how governments use digital technology to inform citizens, to engage them in consultation and deliberation, and also in the codesign and the coproduction of policy and services. So that's an extraordinary achievement. What are some of the factors that you think have played into Ukraine being able to accelerate digital innovation, you know, so rapidly in that period? Yeah. I guess it mostly comes out of the first necessity. You know, it wasn't just about building innovation, you know, for for the sake of it. We, went through, like, a serious surprises from the revolution of dignity, then the COVID, then, like, this full scale war. And, that, also was a big factor, was a technical talent we had as Ukraine had a lot of, and has a lot of technical universities and is a powerhouse for development that combined together also with a vision for digitalization. So when Zelensky became a president, he stated that as the key priority of his program and significantly reformed and basically created a new ministry for digital transformation, which is recognized as the most efficient, both by the population in support and donors. I think together, all that factors and the international experience, brought together created a lot of great products. One of the most known of them is DIA, which is, like, identification application, which holds all the documents and is is quite known. And after that, it was also the Prosoro, the public procurement platform. So there was a huge demand for transparency after the revolution, you know, to to fight corruption. And later on, on the basis of the reform or decentralization with the help of, like, Swiss and UK, USAID, UNDP, a program called a governance for accountability and participation started, which created a lot of the services like e petitions and so on and services inside of regions. Now during, like, with the full scale war, another platform, which is getting traction is called Dream, which tracks restoration projects. So every, like, city can publish what, what what do they need to restore, you know, what was the proofs and so on of rebuilding. So it helps donors to, you know, coordinate better around that and to recognize priorities. And, overall, I think the ministry practice digital diplomacy, first of all, collaborating with countries like Estonia, taking some of their their open source development and now building on top of it and scaling to other countries all of that best experience. Yeah. It's it's extraordinary. You know, some of those products have become, you know, globally recognized, like Dia, for example. Prosoro is getting a lot of attention. And then you you look at something like Dream, which is perhaps more nascent, you know, still still, growing. And you can imagine, of course, it's incredibly relevant in the context of reconstruction, but also potentially really valuable in a lot of other contexts as well in terms of funding public goods and, you know, bringing people together to to discuss and prioritize public infrastructure generally, and and and local development. So, right, this this could potentially bear fruit in in many different contexts. I I think, one of the things that we're really inspired about, you know, seeing the the digital resilience of of Ukraine, is that it shows us in practice how, you know, something we've we advocate for, which is decentralization and decentralized digital, infrastructure for identity and securing identity, enabling participation, deciding on funding for public goods. You know, these things that that we think of as as priorities are actually really achievable even in very difficult conditions, and even when you have constrained resources as well. And it shows us how it supports the resilience of the community and the feeling of of strength in the community, I can imagine, and connectedness in the community as well. But for for people who are web three natives, DAO, you know, natives, you know, this is common knowledge. Right? This is the kind of, thinking that is really common to the web three world. How have you been able to translate this kind of thinking from the world of blockchain to a government ministry when, as you said at the beginning, initially, you know, in in during the COVID times, there was all this resistance to new ways of working and and new forms of organization. Yeah. It's definitely still a long way to go. Like, we proceed now with, different conferences, education, and promotion for wider, like, awareness and recognition. And we have a good number of supporters, as well, like, in the government or in the public sector, like, some zealous of decentralization and even Web three. But for the general government, I think our ideas are, like, still radical. I think we share here some of the, like, similarity. And most people don't think about it as a web three, only cryptocurrencies, I could say, which usually has not the best reputation among white audiences. But adoption is growing and the crisis only fueling this. You know, like, so Ukraine, the different ratings is usually ranked like in around top five in adoption per capita. And even if you look a huge number of parliamentarians and officials declare crypto in in their, you know, declarations. So it's hard to ignore. But most people still confuse crypto with blockchain, for example, or like think Web3 is like marketing buzz and cons like, we're yet to show them the full potential of the community building power and concepts, not just technological, but also economical, organizational. And, for us, the best way to go is working directly with more people, giving them more practical experience. And, we sometimes speak about the minimum viable consortia so that we always have, representative from business or industry leader, like the academy and the government to help scale real, knowledge about this. So so much of, what you're doing, at the Web three Institute, I suppose, will be on show at the, the big event that you've got coming up in in mid November, which is the IAE, Ukrainian DLT Forum Rebuild All. So, and and we're really excited at RadicalxChange that we're going to be presenting our own event, the Future of Digital Democracy Learning from Ukraine as part of of that event. What what is, what can people expect if they attend that event, and what's the bigger context to the rebuild all event? Mhmm. Yeah. So, I I think I should start with, this organization. We call it IEEE, which is, like, the biggest, engineering organization in the world, you know, all around. And, there is this sections on blockchain and Deepgram and so on. So this is the second forum we hold. Previous was in the 2023. Unlike, typical blockchain business conferences, it has a bigger focus on academy and the governance. So it has a healthy mix of, like, three of those sectors we intend to connect together. And, the topic of this year, is, some people ask you if we write it. It was a mistake. I was like, it's not rebuilt. It's like a rebuttal. Like, we have in crypto this, jokes like Huddl, and so on. So, we intend to have it like, we we we don't focus purely just, like, only blockchain. So we invite you to speak, you know, about democracy and so on. So there are many topics we feel adjusting to Web three or the future of institutions, but, with this flavor of, Web three community organizing it. That's where the topic comes from. And, the event would consist like, it's all gonna be online because, you know, it's it's really hard to travel in Ukraine, and it's dangerous to gather many great minds in one place as well, because of the bombings. But, yeah, there would be three days, full of, speeches, and we're just, keynotes. And then there there are three meetups, one on the digital democracy, one on the web three education, and one on the identity specifically with the Linux Foundation decentralized trust. So there would be some cases of European identity projects with Web three, maybe, Bhutan. So we'll see. It's really exciting. I mean, there's a lot of parallels with the ideas that we're interested in and, broadly at RadicalxChange that you're exploring, but also specifically in this event that we're cohosting with you, you know, around identity and building trust, dealing with misinformation and disinformation, and and, how do you manage a very, toxic information ecosystem? You know, how do we, bring people together to to collaborate in in a space where there's a lot of diversity, but perhaps not a lot of existing connections and, and and layers between people. So, there's there's a lot that our community can learn, from from this experience and that I hope that we can also bring to the event. You know, your background, you told us a bit about your background earlier on, Max, you know, that you're a designer and you're an entrepreneur. Did you ever expect that you would be a a civic technologist? Was that something that was kind of in your in your future that you that you anticipated and, that you'd be working, you know, side by side with or in government? Is is that a surprise to you? And and what have you learned through that process? Would you encourage other, other developers, other designers, people who who make, products to actually kinda get involved in the civic tech space? Well, I learned, that I'm gonna be an IT person pretty early, like, as a kid, you know, having a computer since, you know, 10 or something. And then I developed my business and mostly I developed my business sense logic, you know, and and some experience with that. But, overall, I didn't expect to work with the government. The perception Ukraine of government back then was not very high, you know, in in my family as well. But, yeah, it was also a bit of a necessity to understand how that works. But I'm very happy that, I started to do that. Of course, like, like, my strive to volunteer in technology led me to this public goods funding and and so on. But, also, I really enjoy my work with the ministry because of of, how my team is. I remember when I, first came to the office, you know, it's, like, old building of of the, cabinet of ministers. It's like looks like a very old Soviet library or something. But then there was this, floor of, of, of our ministry with, like, a big carpet and this, sitting bags. And, also, there were, like, posters of DC superheroes. And I was like, why why do you have DC superheroes? And there were two reasons. First of all, there is this project DSCT, which is like a, like, digital jurisdiction, which is also one of the innovations. But also one person told me that, there is a feeling that maybe, like, heroes in DC, our work won't be too visible. You know, many people won't be on the forefront, somewhere in the shadow, but doing the really important big things. And such cultural, learnings really supported my strife, you know, to continue to work, with these people. Yeah. Now after some time, I understand that, you know, whatever makes sense overall makes sense in the government. And, you know, it's, I'm trying to be this connector now for people who are looking to do something with the government and trying to share this experience with them. Yeah. I think, that's true. You have to bring your own logic and experience from from the world of entrepreneurship, from from development, from, from Web three communities or or whatever community you come from. Because I had a similar sort of experience where I didn't expect to be working, you know, when I when I was in an elected position or when I worked in government. I'd always worked in the creative industries. I'd always worked with with, you know, artists and and people who who told stories. And, but then you realize, actually, we just need to bring diverse thinking into government if we want the the structures of our society to function differently. And we have to to, enable that sort of different thinking to to to flourish in those spaces and and try and change some of those structures. Because if we don't adapt those structures, then, our democracies, you know, won't be able to survive in this this really challenging new era that we find ourselves in. Right? So we need more technologists, and we need more creative people and more entrepreneurs in government, helping you know, learning how it works, but also bringing diverse perspectives to it. So, you know, thanks so much, Max. It's it's been really wonderful working with you and the Web three Institute over the last couple of months as we've been, you know, gearing up to to host this event together. I'm really excited to see how it all develops. And and thank you so much for your time here on Radical Exchanges. 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My name is Jess Scully, and I'm the executive director of Radical Exchange. We're a global network and a foundation that deploys creativity and technology in service of expanding the agency of communities, you know, building more resilient democracies and creating more efficient and and innovative and participatory ways of of sharing and managing resources. So thank you for joining us. Excited to share this conversation with you.\n\nWe're inviting you to join us in our work in a spirit of radical experimentation and radical imagination as we prototype a future we can actually look forward to with an incredible network of innovators all over the world. One of those innovators is Max Seminchuk. Max is the program director of the Web three Institute. Web three Institute is part sandbox, part incubator, and think tank. It's it's an entity that's focused on fueling the digital economy in Ukraine by developing the Web three space, and, the Web three Institute works at the intersection of government, academia, and the private sector to support, you know, more exchange and and interaction and cooperation across those sectors in service of digital innovation and the Web three ecosystem in Ukraine.\n\nSo, welcome, Max. Thank you for joining us.\n\nSpeaker 1: Greetings, everybody. Thanks for having me.\n\nSpeaker 0: Max, you please introduce yourself and, the Web3 Institute. What are you trying to achieve?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Sure. Well, I began my career in design and software development. And, in '23 2010, I built my company, mostly doing product development and management. And around, 2016, I learned about the the DAO, initial, DAO experiment in the like, it made me really curious about the whole blockchain space, and that's where our company is also starting to develop more.\n\nAnd it was so noble, like, I started to research it and participate in the global conferences, organize meetups. But in, 2020, the COVID struck. Right? And, all the global travel stopped. And, I was really worried about what gonna happen, you know, in my country and so on.\n\nAnd I tried to apply the ideas I learned from this distributed DAO movement to the Ukraine situation, mostly to the coordination of online volunteering and helping hospitals and so on. And, that's when I understood that in the time of crisis, only the, you know, trusted connections work, only the established processes work, because everybody everybody shut down and try to, you know, just to survive. And, when we try to, you know, we applied some innovation with some success. But what I really felt is if we want to make this impact more scalable, we need to integrate into the governance, into the government, in the municipalities, and so on. So just around the time, also, the new ministry was formed and the team that was leading the development of the regulation for crypto and virtual assets.\n\nSo I joined the team as an adviser and, for, like, my first big project was in developing the, like, strategy. And I couldn't develop strategy just by my own. So we invited, like, different ministries, types of businesses, NGOs, and so on to form a strategy. And one of the key pillars of the strategy was, education that we need to prepare people for, you know, like government wants customer protection, consumer protection, businesses needs users, you know, so we all needed to spread the knowledge. And, that's how the Web3 Institute came to be.\n\nYou know, we, gathered all these volunteers and businesses. And, with the support from the Mindich, ministry, we formed this entity that is, now, focusing on developing the field. And our vision, in in in the strategy, we, have a metaphor of digital Venice in the terms of, like, both democracy and prosperity that Venice that was, like, on the on the peak at some moment, but also was like really interesting, like, organization. So, more specifically, especially in the time of war, we focus on the, all the projects and ideas that can support recovery, security. We strive towards interoperability, like, with European Union in terms of documents and so on, economic social governance impact, so not forget about that as well.\n\nSo that's briefly what we do.\n\nSpeaker 0: And so just to to go back there, you said MINDIT, which is the Ministry of Digital Transformation.\n\nSpeaker 1: Of Ukraine. Yes. Yes. It's how we shorten it.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Look. I'm sure we're gonna get it run into a lot acronyms, but just to to clarify that one, the Ministry of Digital Transformation in Ukraine, has actually been attracting a lot of attention, and, it's it's curious. You know?\n\nLike, some might imagine that there are more urgent priorities for a nation which is, you know, four years into a, you know, very, all consuming war, but it's been threatened, invaded for more than ten years. How and why did supporting Web three and supporting the development of of blockchain and, how did that digital innovation become a critical part of the, the driving force of government in Ukraine today?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. Sure. And I agree that, building strong defenses is our first priority. Also for the ministry, a lot of projects have moved there. And even what we do is virtual assets, like fundraising for Ukraine in crypto or restricting access to, you know, like, to exchanges from, like, terrorist groups and so on.\n\nBut to give a wider context, like, when I was born, the population of Ukraine was 52,000,000, and now it's closer to 37 millions reside in Ukraine, and it's declining almost, like, 1% every year. And, just with, in the last years, like, 6,000,000 people were forcefully moved abroad. And I know it like my my I'm was born in Lugansk, and my parents had to leave back in 2014. You know? So it's a huge problem for sure.\n\nBut now there is, like, almost 25,000,000 of Ukrainians are outside of Ukraine, like, the broad diaspora. It's almost, you know, it's soon to be as as, same level as in Ukraine. And, also, the war times, they put more pressure on the democracy. Of course, there are reasons for that, but, I mean, lots of things are restricted and harder to do. And, how do we engage this those who are reside abroad and deal overall with economic, hardships and aging population.\n\nSo, basically, this is, not just to survive the war, but to build a country desirable for the young to stay or for, like, others to return. And, in my view, sustainable future should include measures on better coordination, integration, new institution where I believe Web3 is contributing to.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ukraine has, you know, absolutely, you know, taken digital innovation as a key priority because in 2024, Ukraine was ranked first in the world in UN's e participation index, you know, up from fifty seventh in the world in in 2022. So that framework's looking at these different aspects of of how governments use digital technology to inform citizens, to engage them in consultation and deliberation, and also in the codesign and the coproduction of policy and services. So that's an extraordinary achievement. What are some of the factors that you think have played into Ukraine being able to accelerate digital innovation, you know, so rapidly in that period?\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. I guess it mostly comes out of the first necessity. You know, it wasn't just about building innovation, you know, for for the sake of it. We, went through, like, a serious surprises from the revolution of dignity, then the COVID, then, like, this full scale war. And, that, also was a big factor, was a technical talent we had as Ukraine had a lot of, and has a lot of technical universities and is a powerhouse for development that combined together also with a vision for digitalization.\n\nSo when Zelensky became a president, he stated that as the key priority of his program and significantly reformed and basically created a new ministry for digital transformation, which is recognized as the most efficient, both by the population in support and donors. I think together, all that factors and the international experience, brought together created a lot of great products. One of the most known of them is DIA, which is, like, identification application, which holds all the documents and is is quite known. And after that, it was also the Prosoro, the public procurement platform. So there was a huge demand for transparency after the revolution, you know, to to fight corruption.\n\nAnd later on, on the basis of the reform or decentralization with the help of, like, Swiss and UK, USAID, UNDP, a program called a governance for accountability and participation started, which created a lot of the services like e petitions and so on and services inside of regions. Now during, like, with the full scale war, another platform, which is getting traction is called Dream, which tracks restoration projects. So every, like, city can publish what, what what do they need to restore, you know, what was the proofs and so on of rebuilding. So it helps donors to, you know, coordinate better around that and to recognize priorities. And, overall, I think the ministry practice digital diplomacy, first of all, collaborating with countries like Estonia, taking some of their their open source development and now building on top of it and scaling to other countries all of that best experience.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. It's it's extraordinary. You know, some of those products have become, you know, globally recognized, like Dia, for example. Prosoro is getting a lot of attention. And then you you look at something like Dream, which is perhaps more nascent, you know, still still, growing.\n\nAnd you can imagine, of course, it's incredibly relevant in the context of reconstruction, but also potentially really valuable in a lot of other contexts as well in terms of funding public goods and, you know, bringing people together to to discuss and prioritize public infrastructure generally, and and and local development. So, right, this this could potentially bear fruit in in many different contexts. I I think, one of the things that we're really inspired about, you know, seeing the the digital resilience of of Ukraine, is that it shows us in practice how, you know, something we've we advocate for, which is decentralization and decentralized digital, infrastructure for identity and securing identity, enabling participation, deciding on funding for public goods. You know, these things that that we think of as as priorities are actually really achievable even in very difficult conditions, and even when you have constrained resources as well. And it shows us how it supports the resilience of the community and the feeling of of strength in the community, I can imagine, and connectedness in the community as well.\n\nBut for for people who are web three natives, DAO, you know, natives, you know, this is common knowledge. Right? This is the kind of, thinking that is really common to the web three world. How have you been able to translate this kind of thinking from the world of blockchain to a government ministry when, as you said at the beginning, initially, you know, in in during the COVID times, there was all this resistance to new ways of working and and new forms of organization.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. It's definitely still a long way to go. Like, we proceed now with, different conferences, education, and promotion for wider, like, awareness and recognition. And we have a good number of supporters, as well, like, in the government or in the public sector, like, some zealous of decentralization and even Web three. But for the general government, I think our ideas are, like, still radical.\n\nI think we share here some of the, like, similarity. And most people don't think about it as a web three, only cryptocurrencies, I could say, which usually has not the best reputation among white audiences. But adoption is growing and the crisis only fueling this. You know, like, so Ukraine, the different ratings is usually ranked like in around top five in adoption per capita. And even if you look a huge number of parliamentarians and officials declare crypto in in their, you know, declarations.\n\nSo it's hard to ignore. But most people still confuse crypto with blockchain, for example, or like think Web3 is like marketing buzz and cons like, we're yet to show them the full potential of the community building power and concepts, not just technological, but also economical, organizational. And, for us, the best way to go is working directly with more people, giving them more practical experience. And, we sometimes speak about the minimum viable consortia so that we always have, representative from business or industry leader, like the academy and the government to help scale real, knowledge about this.\n\nSpeaker 0: So so much of, what you're doing, at the Web three Institute, I suppose, will be on show at the, the big event that you've got coming up in in mid November, which is the IAE, Ukrainian DLT Forum Rebuild All. So, and and we're really excited at RadicalxChange that we're going to be presenting our own event, the Future of Digital Democracy Learning from Ukraine as part of of that event. What what is, what can people expect if they attend that event, and what's the bigger context to the rebuild all event? Mhmm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Yeah. So, I I think I should start with, this organization. We call it IEEE, which is, like, the biggest, engineering organization in the world, you know, all around. And, there is this sections on blockchain and Deepgram and so on. So this is the second forum we hold.\n\nPrevious was in the 2023. Unlike, typical blockchain business conferences, it has a bigger focus on academy and the governance. So it has a healthy mix of, like, three of those sectors we intend to connect together. And, the topic of this year, is, some people ask you if we write it. It was a mistake.\n\nI was like, it's not rebuilt. It's like a rebuttal. Like, we have in crypto this, jokes like Huddl, and so on. So, we intend to have it like, we we we don't focus purely just, like, only blockchain. So we invite you to speak, you know, about democracy and so on.\n\nSo there are many topics we feel adjusting to Web three or the future of institutions, but, with this flavor of, Web three community organizing it. That's where the topic comes from. And, the event would consist like, it's all gonna be online because, you know, it's it's really hard to travel in Ukraine, and it's dangerous to gather many great minds in one place as well, because of the bombings. But, yeah, there would be three days, full of, speeches, and we're just, keynotes. And then there there are three meetups, one on the digital democracy, one on the web three education, and one on the identity specifically with the Linux Foundation decentralized trust.\n\nSo there would be some cases of European identity projects with Web three, maybe, Bhutan. So we'll see.\n\nSpeaker 0: It's really exciting. I mean, there's a lot of parallels with the ideas that we're interested in and, broadly at RadicalxChange that you're exploring, but also specifically in this event that we're cohosting with you, you know, around identity and building trust, dealing with misinformation and disinformation, and and, how do you manage a very, toxic information ecosystem? You know, how do we, bring people together to to collaborate in in a space where there's a lot of diversity, but perhaps not a lot of existing connections and, and and layers between people. So, there's there's a lot that our community can learn, from from this experience and that I hope that we can also bring to the event. You know, your background, you told us a bit about your background earlier on, Max, you know, that you're a designer and you're an entrepreneur.\n\nDid you ever expect that you would be a a civic technologist? Was that something that was kind of in your in your future that you that you anticipated and, that you'd be working, you know, side by side with or in government? Is is that a surprise to you? And and what have you learned through that process? Would you encourage other, other developers, other designers, people who who make, products to actually kinda get involved in the civic tech space?\n\nSpeaker 1: Well, I learned, that I'm gonna be an IT person pretty early, like, as a kid, you know, having a computer since, you know, 10 or something. And then I developed my business and mostly I developed my business sense logic, you know, and and some experience with that. But, overall, I didn't expect to work with the government. The perception Ukraine of government back then was not very high, you know, in in my family as well. But, yeah, it was also a bit of a necessity to understand how that works.\n\nBut I'm very happy that, I started to do that. Of course, like, like, my strive to volunteer in technology led me to this public goods funding and and so on. But, also, I really enjoy my work with the ministry because of of, how my team is. I remember when I, first came to the office, you know, it's, like, old building of of the, cabinet of ministers. It's like looks like a very old Soviet library or something.\n\nBut then there was this, floor of, of, of our ministry with, like, a big carpet and this, sitting bags. And, also, there were, like, posters of DC superheroes. And I was like, why why do you have DC superheroes? And there were two reasons. First of all, there is this project DSCT, which is like a, like, digital jurisdiction, which is also one of the innovations.\n\nBut also one person told me that, there is a feeling that maybe, like, heroes in DC, our work won't be too visible. You know, many people won't be on the forefront, somewhere in the shadow, but doing the really important big things. And such cultural, learnings really supported my strife, you know, to continue to work, with these people. Yeah. Now after some time, I understand that, you know, whatever makes sense overall makes sense in the government.\n\nAnd, you know, it's, I'm trying to be this connector now for people who are looking to do something with the government and trying to share this experience with them.\n\nSpeaker 0: Yeah. I think, that's true. You have to bring your own logic and experience from from the world of entrepreneurship, from from development, from, from Web three communities or or whatever community you come from. Because I had a similar sort of experience where I didn't expect to be working, you know, when I when I was in an elected position or when I worked in government. I'd always worked in the creative industries.\n\nI'd always worked with with, you know, artists and and people who who told stories. And, but then you realize, actually, we just need to bring diverse thinking into government if we want the the structures of our society to function differently. And we have to to, enable that sort of different thinking to to to flourish in those spaces and and try and change some of those structures. Because if we don't adapt those structures, then, our democracies, you know, won't be able to survive in this this really challenging new era that we find ourselves in. Right?\n\nSo we need more technologists, and we need more creative people and more entrepreneurs in government, helping you know, learning how it works, but also bringing diverse perspectives to it. So, you know, thanks so much, Max. It's it's been really wonderful working with you and the Web three Institute over the last couple of months as we've been, you know, gearing up to to host this event together. I'm really excited to see how it all develops. And and thank you so much for your time here on Radical Exchanges.\n\nSpeaker 1: With a pleasure, and, looking forward to speak more during the events.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welcome to the Radical Exchanges podcast.", "start": 12.4, "end": 14.58 }, { "text": "My name is Jess Scully, and I'm the executive director of Radical Exchange.", "start": 14.715, "end": 18.415 }, { "text": "We're a global network and a foundation that deploys creativity and technology in service of expanding the agency of communities, you know, building more resilient democracies and creating more efficient and and innovative and participatory ways of of sharing and managing resources.", "start": 18.875, "end": 37.47 }, { "text": "So thank you for joining us.", "start": 38.17, "end": 39.69 }, { "text": "Excited to share this conversation with you.", "start": 39.69, "end": 42.19 } ], "start": 12.4, "end": 42.19, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "We're inviting 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"text": "So just around the time, also, the new ministry was formed and the team that was leading the development of the regulation for crypto and virtual assets.", "start": 203.62, "end": 214.12 } ], "start": 156.07, "end": 214.12, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So I joined the team as an adviser and, for, like, my first big project was in developing the, like, strategy.", "start": 214.34, "end": 223.115 }, { "text": "And I couldn't develop strategy just by my own.", "start": 223.175, "end": 225.91501 }, { "text": "So we invited, like, different ministries, types of businesses, NGOs, and so on to form a strategy.", "start": 225.975, "end": 233.84999 }, { "text": "And one of the key pillars of the strategy was, education that we need to prepare people for, you know, like government wants customer protection, consumer protection, businesses needs users, you know, so we all needed to spread the knowledge.", "start": 234.31, "end": 250.785 }, { "text": "And, that's how the Web3 Institute came to be.", "start": 251.405, "end": 255.905 } ], "start": 214.34, "end": 255.905, "num_words": 96.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "You know, we, gathered all these volunteers and businesses.", "start": 256.15997, "end": 259.53998 }, { "text": "And, with the support from the Mindich, ministry, we formed this entity that is, now, focusing on developing the field.", "start": 259.68, "end": 270.715 }, { "text": "And our vision, in in in the strategy, we, have a metaphor of digital Venice in the terms of, like, both democracy and prosperity that Venice that was, like, on the on the peak at some moment, but also was like really interesting, like, organization.", "start": 270.85498, "end": 285.96 }, { "text": "So, more specifically, especially in the time of war, we focus on the, all the projects and ideas that can support recovery, security.", "start": 287.94, "end": 295.64 }, { "text": "We strive towards interoperability, like, with European Union in terms of documents and so on, economic social governance impact, so not forget about that as well.", "start": 296.825, "end": 307.64502 } ], "start": 256.15997, "end": 307.64502, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So that's briefly what we do.", "start": 307.86502, "end": 309.565 } ], "start": 307.86502, "end": 309.565, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And so just to to go back there, you said MINDIT, which is the Ministry of Digital Transformation.", "start": 309.83, "end": 315.87 } ], "start": 309.83, "end": 315.87, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Of Ukraine.", "start": 316.23, "end": 317.03 }, { "text": "Yes.", "start": 317.03, "end": 317.27 }, { "text": "Yes.", "start": 317.27, "end": 317.43 }, { "text": "It's how we shorten it.", "start": 317.43, "end": 318.81 } ], "start": 316.23, "end": 318.81, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 319.19, "end": 319.43 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 319.43, "end": 319.67 }, { "text": "Look.", "start": 319.67, "end": 320.07 }, { "text": "I'm sure we're gonna get it run into a lot acronyms, but just to to clarify that one, the Ministry of Digital Transformation in Ukraine, has actually been attracting a lot of attention, and, it's it's curious.", "start": 320.07, "end": 332.545 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 332.545, "end": 332.86502 } ], "start": 319.19, "end": 332.86502, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Like, some might imagine that there are more urgent priorities for a nation which is, you know, four years into a, you know, very, all consuming war, but it's been threatened, invaded for more than ten years.", "start": 332.86502, "end": 346.4 }, { "text": "How and why did supporting Web three and supporting the development of of blockchain and, how did that digital innovation become a critical part of the, the driving force of government in Ukraine today?", "start": 348.025, "end": 363.59 } ], "start": 332.86502, "end": 363.59, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 365.09, "end": 365.41 }, { "text": "Sure.", "start": 365.41, "end": 365.65 }, { "text": "And I agree that, building strong defenses is our first priority.", "start": 365.65, "end": 369.11002 }, { "text": "Also for the ministry, a lot of projects have moved there.", "start": 369.25, "end": 372.29 }, { "text": "And even what we do is virtual assets, like fundraising for Ukraine in crypto or restricting access to, you know, like, to exchanges from, like, terrorist groups and so on.", "start": 372.29, "end": 384.825 } ], "start": 365.09, "end": 384.825, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But to give a wider context, like, when I was born, the population of Ukraine was 52,000,000, and now it's closer to 37 millions reside in Ukraine, and it's declining almost, like, 1% every year.", "start": 385.525, "end": 401.28 }, { "text": "And, just with, in the last years, like, 6,000,000 people were forcefully moved abroad.", "start": 401.535, "end": 409.23502 }, { "text": "And I know it like my my I'm was born in Lugansk, and my parents had to leave back in 2014.", "start": 409.855, "end": 415.95502 }, { "text": "You know?", "start": 416.41998, "end": 416.58 }, { "text": "So it's a huge problem for sure.", "start": 416.58, "end": 418.5 } ], "start": 385.525, "end": 418.5, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But now there is, like, almost 25,000,000 of Ukrainians are outside of Ukraine, like, the broad diaspora.", "start": 418.5, "end": 426.04 }, { "text": "It's almost, you know, it's soon to be as as, same level as in Ukraine.", "start": 426.34, "end": 431.56 }, { "text": "And, also, the war times, they put more pressure on the democracy.", "start": 432.13498, "end": 436.63498 }, { "text": "Of course, there are reasons for that, but, I mean, lots of things are restricted and harder to do.", "start": 436.935, "end": 442.47498 }, { "text": "And, how do we engage this those who are reside abroad and deal overall with economic, hardships and aging population.", "start": 443.175, "end": 451.54 } ], "start": 418.5, "end": 451.54, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So, basically, this is, not just to survive the war, but to build a country desirable for the young to stay or for, like, others to return.", "start": 452.4, "end": 464.11502 }, { "text": "And, in my view, sustainable future should include measures on better coordination, integration, new institution where I believe Web3 is contributing to.", "start": 464.73502, "end": 475.61002 } ], "start": 452.4, "end": 475.61002, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ukraine has, you know, absolutely, you know, taken digital innovation as a key priority because in 2024, Ukraine was ranked first in the world in UN's e participation index, you know, up from fifty seventh in the world in in 2022.", "start": 475.83002, "end": 492.915 }, { "text": "So that framework's looking at these different aspects of of how governments use digital technology to inform citizens, to engage them in consultation and deliberation, and also in the codesign and the coproduction of policy and services.", "start": 492.915, "end": 505.015 }, { "text": "So that's an extraordinary achievement.", "start": 505.25998, "end": 507.91998 }, { "text": "What are some of the factors that you think have played into Ukraine being able to accelerate digital innovation, you know, so rapidly in that period?", "start": 508.53998, "end": 517.36 } ], "start": 475.83002, "end": 517.36, "num_words": 109.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 518.78503, "end": 519.28503 }, { "text": "I guess it mostly comes out of the first necessity.", "start": 519.585, "end": 522.805 }, { "text": "You know, it wasn't just about building innovation, you know, for for the sake of it.", "start": 523.025, "end": 528.805 }, { "text": "We, went through, like, a serious surprises from the revolution of dignity, then the COVID, then, like, this full scale war.", "start": 529.34503, "end": 537.89 }, { "text": "And, that, also was a big factor, was a technical talent we had as Ukraine had a lot of, and has a lot of technical universities and is a powerhouse for development that combined together also with a vision for digitalization.", "start": 537.89, "end": 556.075 } ], "start": 518.78503, "end": 556.075, "num_words": 89.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So when Zelensky became a president, he stated that as the key priority of his program and significantly reformed and basically created a new ministry for digital transformation, which is recognized as the most efficient, both by the population in support and donors.", "start": 556.455, "end": 577.055 }, { "text": "I think together, all that factors and the international experience, brought together created a lot of great products.", "start": 579.595, "end": 587.935 }, { "text": "One of the most known of them is DIA, which is, like, identification application, which holds all the documents and is is quite known.", "start": 588.68, "end": 599.58 }, { "text": "And after that, it was also the Prosoro, the public procurement platform.", "start": 601.08, "end": 606.975 }, { "text": "So there was a huge demand for transparency after the revolution, you know, to to fight corruption.", "start": 607.035, "end": 613.21497 } ], "start": 556.455, "end": 613.21497, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And later on, on the basis of the reform or decentralization with the help of, like, Swiss and UK, USAID, UNDP, a program called a governance for accountability and participation started, which created a lot of the services like e petitions and so on and services inside of regions.", "start": 613.995, "end": 637.46497 }, { "text": "Now during, like, with the full scale war, another platform, which is getting traction is called Dream, which tracks restoration projects.", "start": 638.64496, "end": 649.73 }, { "text": "So every, like, city can publish what, what what do they need to restore, you know, what was the proofs and so on of rebuilding.", "start": 649.79, "end": 659.125 }, { "text": "So it helps donors to, you know, coordinate better around that and to recognize priorities.", "start": 659.90497, "end": 666.645 }, { "text": "And, overall, I think the ministry practice digital diplomacy, first of all, collaborating with countries like Estonia, taking some of their their open source development and now building on top of it and scaling to other countries all of that best experience.", "start": 667.665, "end": 683.05 } ], "start": 613.995, "end": 683.05, "num_words": 152.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 684.825, "end": 685.065 }, { "text": "It's it's extraordinary.", "start": 685.065, "end": 686.205 }, { "text": "You know, some of those products have become, you know, globally recognized, like Dia, for example.", "start": 686.265, "end": 691.645 }, { "text": "Prosoro is getting a lot of attention.", "start": 691.785, "end": 693.565 }, { "text": "And then you you look at something like Dream, which is perhaps more nascent, you know, still still, growing.", "start": 694.105, "end": 700.31 } ], "start": 684.825, "end": 700.31, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And you can imagine, of course, it's incredibly relevant in the context of reconstruction, but also potentially really valuable in a lot of other contexts as well in terms of funding public goods and, you know, bringing people together to to discuss and prioritize public infrastructure generally, and and and local development.", "start": 700.93005, "end": 721.735 }, { "text": "So, right, this this could potentially bear fruit in in many different contexts.", "start": 721.79504, "end": 727.09503 }, { "text": "I I think, one of the things that we're really inspired about, you know, seeing the the digital resilience of of Ukraine, is that it shows us in practice how, you know, something we've we advocate for, which is decentralization and decentralized digital, infrastructure for identity and securing identity, enabling participation, deciding on funding for public goods.", "start": 730.30005, "end": 757.46 }, { "text": "You know, these things that that we think of as as priorities are actually really achievable even in very difficult conditions, and even when you have constrained resources as well.", "start": 757.76, "end": 770.79504 }, { "text": "And it shows us how it supports the resilience of the community and the feeling of of strength in the community, I can imagine, and connectedness in the community as well.", "start": 770.85504, "end": 780.635 } ], "start": 700.93005, "end": 780.635, "num_words": 183.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But for for people who are web three natives, DAO, you know, natives, you know, this is common knowledge.", "start": 781.09503, "end": 788.54 }, { "text": "Right?", "start": 788.54, "end": 788.78 }, { "text": "This is the kind of, thinking that is really common to the web three world.", "start": 788.78, "end": 792.16 }, { "text": "How have you been able to translate this kind of thinking from the world of blockchain to a government ministry when, as you said at the beginning, initially, you know, in in during the COVID times, there was all this resistance to new ways of working and and new forms of organization.", "start": 792.38, "end": 806.66504 } ], "start": 781.09503, "end": 806.66504, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 809.01996, "end": 809.26 }, { "text": "It's definitely still a long way to go.", "start": 809.26, "end": 811.57996 }, { "text": "Like, we proceed now with, different conferences, education, and promotion for wider, like, awareness and recognition.", "start": 811.57996, "end": 818.8 }, { "text": "And we have a good number of supporters, as well, like, in the government or in the public sector, like, some zealous of decentralization and even Web three.", "start": 819.57996, "end": 829.525 }, { "text": "But for the general government, I think our ideas are, like, still radical.", "start": 829.825, "end": 834.16003 } ], "start": 809.01996, "end": 834.16003, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I think we share here some of the, like, similarity.", "start": 834.16003, "end": 837.78 }, { "text": "And most people don't think about it as a web three, only cryptocurrencies, I could say, which usually has not the best reputation among white audiences.", "start": 839.52, "end": 849.785 }, { "text": "But adoption is growing and the crisis only fueling this.", "start": 850.40497, "end": 854.26495 }, { "text": "You know, like, so Ukraine, the different ratings is usually ranked like in around top five in adoption per capita.", "start": 855.125, "end": 864.08 }, { "text": "And even if you look a huge number of parliamentarians and officials declare crypto in in their, you know, declarations.", "start": 865.18005, "end": 872.64 } ], "start": 834.16003, "end": 872.64, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So it's hard to ignore.", "start": 873.66003, "end": 874.88 }, { "text": "But most people still confuse crypto with blockchain, for example, or like think Web3 is like marketing buzz and cons like, we're yet to show them the full potential of the community building power and concepts, not just technological, but also economical, organizational.", "start": 876.115, "end": 893.08997 }, { "text": "And, for us, the best way to go is working directly with more people, giving them more practical experience.", "start": 894.02997, "end": 902.61 }, { "text": "And, we sometimes speak about the minimum viable consortia so that we always have, representative from business or industry leader, like the academy and the government to help scale real, knowledge about this.", "start": 903.955, "end": 918.61 } ], "start": 873.66003, "end": 918.61, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So so much of, what you're doing, at the Web three Institute, I suppose, will be on show at the, the big event that you've got coming up in in mid November, which is the IAE, Ukrainian DLT Forum Rebuild All.", "start": 918.82996, "end": 938.955 }, { "text": "So, and and we're really excited at RadicalxChange that we're going to be presenting our own event, the Future of Digital Democracy Learning from Ukraine as part of of that event.", "start": 938.955, "end": 948.67004 }, { "text": "What what is, what can people expect if they attend that event, and what's the bigger context to the rebuild all event?", "start": 948.97003, "end": 955.47003 }, { "text": "Mhmm.", "start": 956.73004, "end": 957.23004 } ], "start": 918.82996, "end": 957.23004, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 957.77, "end": 958.25 }, { "text": "So, I I think I should start with, this organization.", "start": 958.25, "end": 961.905 }, { "text": "We call it IEEE, which is, like, the biggest, engineering organization in the world, you know, all around.", "start": 962.525, "end": 970.465 }, { "text": "And, there is this sections on blockchain and Deepgram and so on.", "start": 970.84503, "end": 975.105 }, { "text": "So this is the second forum we hold.", "start": 975.2, "end": 977.27997 } ], "start": 957.77, "end": 977.27997, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Previous was in the 2023.", "start": 977.27997, "end": 979.77997 }, { "text": "Unlike, typical blockchain business conferences, it has a bigger focus on academy and the governance.", "start": 981.2, "end": 988.66 }, { "text": "So it has a healthy mix of, like, three of those sectors we intend to connect together.", "start": 988.8, "end": 993.535 }, { "text": "And, the topic of this year, is, some people ask you if we write it.", "start": 993.535, "end": 999.735 }, { "text": "It was a mistake.", "start": 999.735, "end": 1000.535 } ], "start": 977.27997, "end": 1000.535, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I was like, it's not rebuilt.", "start": 1000.535, "end": 1001.65497 }, { "text": "It's like a rebuttal.", "start": 1001.65497, "end": 1002.63495 }, { "text": "Like, we have in crypto this, jokes like Huddl, and so on.", "start": 1002.695, "end": 1007.95 }, { "text": "So, we intend to have it like, we we we don't focus purely just, like, only blockchain.", "start": 1008.01, "end": 1015.79004 }, { "text": "So we invite you to speak, you know, about democracy and so on.", "start": 1015.93005, "end": 1018.89 } ], "start": 1000.535, "end": 1018.89, "num_words": 52.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there are many topics we feel adjusting to Web three or the future of institutions, but, with this flavor of, Web three community organizing it.", "start": 1018.89, "end": 1029.995 }, { "text": "That's where the topic comes from.", "start": 1030.135, "end": 1031.915 }, { "text": "And, the event would consist like, it's all gonna be online because, you know, it's it's really hard to travel in Ukraine, and it's dangerous to gather many great minds in one place as well, because of the bombings.", "start": 1032.16, "end": 1045.38 }, { "text": "But, yeah, there would be three days, full of, speeches, and we're just, keynotes.", "start": 1045.6, "end": 1054.015 }, { "text": "And then there there are three meetups, one on the digital democracy, one on the web three education, and one on the identity specifically with the Linux Foundation decentralized trust.", "start": 1054.635, "end": 1067.6001 } ], "start": 1018.89, "end": 1067.6001, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So there would be some cases of European identity projects with Web three, maybe, Bhutan.", "start": 1067.9, "end": 1075.76 }, { "text": "So we'll see.", "start": 1076.14, "end": 1077.015 } ], "start": 1067.9, "end": 1077.015, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "It's really exciting.", "start": 1078.055, "end": 1078.855 }, { "text": "I mean, there's a lot of parallels with the ideas that we're interested in and, broadly at RadicalxChange that you're exploring, but also specifically in this event that we're cohosting with you, you know, around identity and building trust, dealing with misinformation and disinformation, and and, how do you manage a very, toxic information ecosystem?", "start": 1078.855, "end": 1101.61 }, { "text": "You know, how do we, bring people together to to collaborate in in a space where there's a lot of diversity, but perhaps not a lot of existing connections and, and and layers between people.", "start": 1102.63, "end": 1115.755 }, { "text": "So, there's there's a lot that our community can learn, from from this experience and that I hope that we can also bring to the event.", "start": 1115.755, "end": 1123.4199 }, { "text": "You know, your background, you told us a bit about your background earlier on, Max, you know, that you're a designer and you're an entrepreneur.", "start": 1124.6, "end": 1130.7 } ], "start": 1078.055, "end": 1130.7, "num_words": 144.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Did you ever expect that you would be a a civic technologist?", "start": 1131.815, "end": 1135.115 }, { "text": "Was that something that was kind of in your in your future that you that you anticipated and, that you'd be working, you know, side by side with or in government?", "start": 1135.255, "end": 1145.195 }, { "text": "Is is that a surprise to you?", "start": 1145.895, "end": 1147.06 }, { "text": "And and what have you learned through that process?", "start": 1147.06, "end": 1148.9 }, { "text": "Would you encourage other, other developers, other designers, people who who make, products to actually kinda get involved in the civic tech space?", "start": 1148.9, "end": 1159.48 } ], "start": 1131.815, "end": 1159.48, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Well, I learned, that I'm gonna be an IT person pretty early, like, as a kid, you know, having a computer since, you know, 10 or something.", "start": 1161.655, "end": 1170.155 }, { "text": "And then I developed my business and mostly I developed my business sense logic, you know, and and some experience with that.", "start": 1171.015, "end": 1178.47 }, { "text": "But, overall, I didn't expect to work with the government.", "start": 1178.85, "end": 1182.95 }, { "text": "The perception Ukraine of government back then was not very high, you know, in in my family as well.", "start": 1183.09, "end": 1188.55 }, { "text": "But, yeah, it was also a bit of a necessity to understand how that works.", "start": 1189.4751, "end": 1194.055 } ], "start": 1161.655, "end": 1194.055, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But I'm very happy that, I started to do that.", "start": 1194.515, "end": 1198.3551 }, { "text": "Of course, like, like, my strive to volunteer in technology led me to this public goods funding and and so on.", "start": 1198.3551, "end": 1206.19 }, { "text": "But, also, I really enjoy my work with the ministry because of of, how my team is.", "start": 1206.25, "end": 1214.19 }, { "text": "I remember when I, first came to the office, you know, it's, like, old building of of the, cabinet of ministers.", "start": 1214.25, "end": 1222.605 }, { "text": "It's like looks like a very old Soviet library or something.", "start": 1222.825, "end": 1225.8049 } ], "start": 1194.515, "end": 1225.8049, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But then there was this, floor of, of, of our ministry with, like, a big carpet and this, sitting bags.", "start": 1226.0249, "end": 1235.19 }, { "text": "And, also, there were, like, posters of DC superheroes.", "start": 1235.73, "end": 1239.4299 }, { "text": "And I was like, why why do you have DC superheroes?", "start": 1239.6499, "end": 1242.6299 }, { "text": "And there were two reasons.", "start": 1242.69, "end": 1243.8099 }, { "text": "First of all, there is this project DSCT, which is like a, like, digital jurisdiction, which is also one of the innovations.", "start": 1243.8099, "end": 1252.165 } ], "start": 1226.0249, "end": 1252.165, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "But also one person told me that, there is a feeling that maybe, like, heroes in DC, our work won't be too visible.", "start": 1252.625, "end": 1261.17 }, { "text": "You know, many people won't be on the forefront, somewhere in the shadow, but doing the really important big things.", "start": 1261.17, "end": 1266.29 }, { "text": "And such cultural, learnings really supported my strife, you know, to continue to work, with these people.", "start": 1266.29, "end": 1275.255 }, { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1276.675, "end": 1277.0751 }, { "text": "Now after some time, I understand that, you know, whatever makes sense overall makes sense in the government.", "start": 1277.0751, "end": 1284.215 } ], "start": 1252.625, "end": 1284.215, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "And, you know, it's, I'm trying to be this connector now for people who are looking to do something with the government and trying to share this experience with them.", "start": 1284.275, "end": 1294.24 } ], "start": 1284.275, "end": 1294.24, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Yeah.", "start": 1295.42, "end": 1295.74 }, { "text": "I think, that's true.", "start": 1296.14, "end": 1298.125 }, { "text": "You have to bring your own logic and experience from from the world of entrepreneurship, from from development, from, from Web three communities or or whatever community you come from.", "start": 1298.745, "end": 1308.925 }, { "text": "Because I had a similar sort of experience where I didn't expect to be working, you know, when I when I was in an elected position or when I worked in government.", "start": 1309.145, "end": 1317.14 }, { "text": "I'd always worked in the creative industries.", "start": 1317.2, "end": 1319.2 } ], "start": 1295.42, "end": 1319.2, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "I'd always worked with with, you know, artists and and people who who told stories.", "start": 1319.2, "end": 1323.855 }, { "text": "And, but then you realize, actually, we just need to bring diverse thinking into government if we want the the structures of our society to function differently.", "start": 1324.255, "end": 1335.235 }, { "text": "And we have to to, enable that sort of different thinking to to to flourish in those spaces and and try and change some of those structures.", "start": 1335.775, "end": 1343.51 }, { "text": "Because if we don't adapt those 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