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            "transcript": "La tecnica biometrica oggi ci permette di identificare una persona partire dalle sue caratteristiche fisiche come le impronte digitali, la voce, l'iride o il viso. Il riconoscimento facciale è una delle principali applicazioni di questa tecnica usata oggi in moltissimi ambiti, ad esempio per sbloccare in modo sicuro I nostri smartphone. Alla base ci sono I dati biometrici, cioè quei dati personali relativi alle caratteristiche fisiche o comportamentali di un individuo. Rispetto ad altre tecniche biometriche, il riconoscimento facciale è di natura non a contatto e permette di registrare immagini a distanza senza richiedere alcuna interazione con la persona interessata. C'è poi un tema di economicità visto che il riconoscimento facciale è una tecnologia a buon mercato, molto meno costosa di altri strumenti biometrici. Risvolti positivi, insomma, non è difficile vederne. Pensate a come sarebbe comodo entrare in casa senza dover pescare le chiavi dalla tasca o prelevare senza dover ricordare il pin del bancomat. Non solo comodo, anche sicuro la casa e il bancomat sarebbero a prova di furto, scasso o smarrimento. Ma il riconoscimento facciale, soprattutto quando è usato per l'identificazione biometrica nei luoghi pubblici, anche un lato oscuro: errori, discriminazioni algoritmiche, abuso di potere, sorveglianza di massa e violazione della privacy. L'utilizzo e il trattamento dei dati biometrici è estremamente complesso esposto a rischi e incertezze normative. Alla crescita esponenziale delle tecnologie del riconoscimento facciale non corrisponde oggi un adeguato processo di regolamentazione. Nel nostro ordinamento non esiste una normativa ad hoc ma il riconoscimento facciale deve rispettare una serie di principi introdotti dal GDPR. Una cosa è certa: sicurezza resta la parola chiave e se questa tecnologia è usata contro o senza un'espressa volontà dei singoli può aprire la strada alla sorveglianza di massa. Emblematico è il caso di Clearview AI con la creazione di un motore di ricerca per il riconoscimento facciale che funziona tramite un enorme database dove pare ci siano oltre 10000000000 di immagini di volti umani in tutto il mondo. Insomma, quando usiamo il riconoscimento facciale siamo sicuri che sia sicuro? Lo abbiamo chiesto all'onorevole Filippo Sensi. Benvenuto a Tecnopolicy a Filippo Sensi, deputato. Grazie a voi per l'invito. La prima domanda del nostro podcast è sempre la stessa ed è sempre molto comoda per chi intervista ed è raccontaci la tua esperienza professionale, raccontaci come 6 arrivato a fare quello che fai oggi, come 6 arrivato a interessarti, a occuparti del tema della puntata, cioè del riconoscimento facciale. Un giornalista ho sempre lavorato un po' alla frontiera tra il giornalismo e la comunicazione politica e come comunicatore politico ho lavorato per l'amministrazione di Roma ho lavorato per partiti politici poi sono stato per 2 volte portavoce a Palazzo Chigi del presidente del consiglio oggi sono un parlamentare del partito democratico e nell'ambito di questa mia esperienza parlamentare ho sviluppato un'attenzione particolare al tema ai temi della tecnologia, alle libertà, alle opportunità che offrono ma anche ai rischi che sono connesse. Ecco e questo è esattamente il tema della puntata. Il riconoscimento facciale già oggi un ampio utilizzo sia in termini di sicurezza sia in termini commerciali. Quali sono però I rischi e I vantaggi di questa tecnologia? Io non voglio essere luddista so bene della diffusione ovviamente ognuno di noi basta avere un cellulare e utilizza il riconoscimento facciale. Penso però che con troppa facilità abbiamo lasciato correre la disponibilità dei nostri dati personali quelli che riguardano la nostra identità quelli che riguardano anche I dati biometrici e che da qualche anno a questa parte non solo in Italia ovviamente anzi in particolare negli Stati Uniti in Gran Bretagna si sia sviluppata una sensibilità che in qualche modo ci dice attenzione a quello che stiamo facendo è importante che quello che noi facciamo lo facciamo con maggiore consapevolezza. Quindi le tecnologie e il riconoscimento facciale oggi sono potentissime permettono l'incrocio di dati personali di data base I più diversi. Secondo me questa può essere rischia di essere in alcuni casi certamente lo è un un rischio pesante per la nostra privacy. Faccio un piccolo inciso, generalmente noi avevamo una visione della privacy come una cosa un po' inglese da siepe di casa. Io penso che la privacy sia una delle frontiere che riguardano la nostra identità la nostra identità digitale quindi le nostre libertà quindi I nostri diritti. Per cui in capo al riconoscimento facciale credo che oggi ci siano alcune domande e alcune risposte che si devono esigere. Noi qui ci occupiamo di policy e anche di regolamentazione. In Italia c'era stata abbastanza un vuoto in questo campo. L'anno scorso invece c'è stata forse una delle più importanti diciamo passi avanti a livello legislativo quando una regolamentazione del riconoscimento facciale è entrata in un decreto del governo che poi è diventato legge che in questo momento quindi regola questo campo almeno in parte almeno con un inizio di ragionamento anche legislativo qual è stato l'iter che portato fino ad arrivare appunto al decreto a inserire questo questa normativa all'interno di un decreto che era su altre cose ma che poi per fortuna costruito un primo tassello normativo. Sono anni ormai che si parla di riconoscimento facciale di sorveglianza di società della sorveglianza di sorveglianza biometrica e non sono negli Stati Uniti ma insomma anche in Europa. In particolare negli ultimi anni si era sviluppata così una tendenza nelle città da parte di alcune amministrazioni comunali di utilizzare delle telecamere intelligenti. Un po' il trade off è siccome non ho un numero congruo di personale di polizia municipale eccetera eccetera per assicurare la sicurezza accendiamo telecamere e questo da solo è una sorta di deterrente nei confronti della criminalità non è così ovviamente e fino a qui anzi questo è stato incentivato dai vari ministri degli interni che si sono succeduti. La questione però è tecnologica. Nel momento in cui alle telecamere accese su una piazza o accanto a una stazione noi diamo la possibilità di utilizzare una tecnologia più raffinata che magari compara matcha come si dice nell'orrido gergo tecnico. I dati di chi passa in quel momento nella piazza con I suoi dati cioè automaticamente andando a ricercare I suoi post su Instagram oppure il suo storico sui social oppure altre banche dati in cui lui figura, a questo punto noi ci troviamo di fronte a una sorta di pesca a strascico. Per cui siamo intervenuti in parlamento e chiedendo anche la forza di legge dell'Authority per limitare anzi per vietare la possibilità di utilizzare il riconoscimento facciale in queste telecamere e devo dire che abbiamo avuto ragione. Ho pensato poi che però diciamo era un po' un pezzetto alla volta andare a Como si fa così a Udine si fa così insomma si inseguiva un po' una una fatica di Sisifo. Allora ho pensato che forse sarebbe stato il caso di chiedere una moratoria sull'utilizzo delle tecnologie di riconoscimento facciale nei sistemi ovviamente di videosorveglianza nei luoghi pubblici. Pensavo che sarebbe stato impossibile farlo devo dire che abbiamo scelto un veicolo legislativo un po' che si occupava di altro quindi l'abbiamo nascosto dentro questa legge. Abbiamo chiesto una moratoria che vuol dire una sospensione. Qual era la ratio? Siccome il parlamento europeo sta deliberando e sta decidendo su questo sull'intelligenza artificiale e anche sul riconoscimento facciale. Prendiamoci una finestra, cioè vietiamo il riconoscimento facciale per un tot periodo di tempo fintanto che il parlamento europeo non riuscirà a legiferare a quel punto noi recepiremo la normativa ovviamente adattandola alla nostra vita, al nostro sistema e questo però ci consente di evitare che di nuovo possano sorgere sindaci che vogliono mettere il software tal dei tali nella piazza oppure che chiunque possa fare quello che vuole con I dati biometrici delle persone che semplicemente si trovano a passare per caso in una piazza. Oggi fino a dicembre 2023 c'è questa sospensione che siamo riusciti inopinatamente a ottenere. Devo dire che c'è stato anche un grande interesse a livello europeo la settimana scorsa è arrivata una delegazione di verdi europei per dire come è stato possibile, come è successo, vogliamo riprodurlo e farlo anche noi. A Strasburgo si sta ragionando su si va verso una moratoria si consentiranno alcuni utilizzi altri no oppure solamente si farà giustizia una volta per tutto il riconoscimento facciale nei luoghi pubblici ovviamente una battaglia epocale e ovviamente si va per passi e non per rivoluzioni. Ecco parliamo proprio di Europa perché c'è stata sia una risoluzione del parlamento europeo che chiedeva alla commissione di occuparsi di questo tema e sia però c'è stata un'apertura nei confronti del riconoscimento facciale a livello per esempio degli aeroporti perché ciascuno di noi ormai è abituato tanti anni a passare attraverso alcuni aeroporti e in ogni caso a registrare il proprio volto o le proprie impronte digitali e quindi con la scusa tra virgolette da una parte della velocità del passaggio e del riconoscimento dei viaggiatori e dall'altra della sicurezza perché ovviamente ci sono stati ovviamente attentati o tentati in questi anni questo è uno di quei di quegli ambiti in cui si è aperta la possibilità dell'uso riconoscimento facciale Quali sono però cioè quali sono le forze in Europa che vanno verso un maggior utilizzo del riconoscimento facciale? Perché nel mondo noi sappiamo che noi non la pensiamo in Europa né come la Cina dove ovviamente c'è un uso indiscriminato e quasi ormai capillare delle telecamere e non solo ma neanche negli Stati Uniti che ovviamente mettono la sicurezza spesso prima della della privacy e che hanno un problema in molti casi di gestione di questo tipo di tecnologie e poi c'hanno un problema ovviamente di stati e di federale per cui anche lì è meno facile armonizzare la cosa. In Europa riusciremo secondo te ad armonizzare o ad avere un regolamento che riesca a disporre di questo tema a livello comunitario? Io sono voglio essere fiducioso penso di sì nel senso che l'Europa si è ricavata un suo ruolo che è quella un po' di arbitro di terzo grazie al GDPR noi abbiamo una riconosciuta autorevolezza nel mondo dal punto di vista dei diritti, dei paletti, della cornice, del framework, dei diritti anche connessi appunto alle nuove tecnologie. Il trade-off sicurezza-libertà è un trade-off al quale io risponderei responsabilità. Cioè il modello americano, cioè il mercato fa un po' come gli pare vi prendo tutti I dati tanto voi più o meno avete tutti bisogno di quella chat o di quella app e poi facciamo noi noi chi punto interrogativo e il modello invece ipersecuritario e ovviamente autoritario diciamo cinese secondo me possono trovare in questo bilanciamento da arbitro della situazione nell'Europa un presidio sicuro anche negli anni che verranno semmai possiamo chiederci se l'Europa sarà in grado in futuro di competere sul settore della intelligenza artificiale non solo come regolatore ma anche come player tra questi 2 giganti e questa è una grande scommessa. La questione però è posta, dicevi te giustamente, il Parlamento Europeo chiesto alla Commissione di esprimersi. La Commissione si è espressa con una comunicazione che lasciato un po' larghe le maglie. Adesso il Parlamento dovrà fare un atto che recepisce ovviamente il lavoro della Commissione e renderlo secondo me più stringente sull'utilizzo di alcune tecnologie o di alcuni usi e utilizzi della tecnologia. Penso ovviamente al riconoscimento facciale e in generale anche alle tecnologie di social scoring e cioè l'idea che ai tuoi comportamenti possa essere legato un fattore premiale relativamente ai tuoi diritti che insomma ovviamente per la sensibilità europea e per la sensibilità occidentale è inaccettabile. Ci stanno lavorando credo che il prossimo anno il 2023 sarà l'anno decisivo per avere un ordinamento giuridico europeo quindi vincolante per I paesi dell'unione intelligente e capace di fissare alcuni paletti una volta per tutti. Bene e però appunto abbiamo dei casi anche in occidente in cui ci sono delle società che invece vengono sanzionate che invece si scopre solo dopo che hanno agito in maniera illegittima ed è il caso di clear view AI che è stata sanzionata e che è nell'occhio del ciclo sia negli Stati Uniti che nel Regno Unito per una serie di appunto raccolte di dati e non autorizzate e uso indiscriminato. Come come si deve fare in questi casi? Qual è il giusto approccio nei confronti di soggetti privati come questi che comunque spesso fanno delle raccolte che magari in alcuni casi sono state anche autorizzate o dall'utente o dalla pubblica amministrazione che non sa che adottando una certa tecnologia poi c'è dietro un mondo di raccolta dati che poi emerge solo in caso di un'inchiesta o di un whistleblower che ne parla eccetera. E' un tema molto delicato Clearview A. I. È diventato un caso internazionale Tra l'altro, dopo I rovesci delle multe, delle sanzioni e delle polemiche che suscitato la tecnologia di Clearview AI l'azienda cercato di fare una sorta di operazione di remake. Di recente lo fatto in Ucraina dando la disponibilità alle autorità ucraine di utilizzare le loro tecnologie per evitare il traffico dei bambini alla frontiera o per riconoscere I militari russi che erano già operativi dentro il Paese. Quindi perché alla fine che cosa vende un'azienda come Clearview AI? Vende la pretesa, l'illusione della sicurezza. Ti do un maggiore controllo e approssimando a 0 possibilmente l'errore, l'errore statistico e in questo senso voi siete più sicuri nelle vostre case nelle vostre città o dovunque sia. Purtroppo I bias e gli errori dell'algoritmo alcuni bias che stanno alle spalle alle origini stesse dell'algoritmo fanno sì che in particolare negli Stati Uniti si sono riscontrati tantissimi bias di genere bias etnici che rendono poco efficace questo tipo di tecnologia. Dobbiamo avere un atteggiamento punitivo nei confronti di qualsiasi tipo di tecnologia e riconoscimento facciale. Io sono piuttosto scettico fammi fare la parte di quello rigido su questo fronte anche se la moratoria approvata in Italia è stata criticata giustamente dalle organizzazioni dalle ONG che sono dedicate alla privacy come troppo blanda rispetto a un bando un divieto una volta per tutti. Io penso che mettere il motore di una Ferrari dentro uno chassis di una utilitaria non funziona e quindi pensare che un certo tipo di tecnologia che consente una capacità di penetrazione così minuta nella vita delle persone secondo me è bene dire questo non lo possiamo fare fermiamoci un passo prima. Ti dico un'ultima cosa di recente il New York Times fatto un'operazione con un'altra azienda con una specie di app, di riconoscimento facciale che è disponibile in rete. E una giornalista, il New York Times chiesto a vari colleghi di provare, dice mettete la vostra faccia, vedete il match delle foto, delle immagini che viene fuori. E l'articolo del New York Times è impressionante perché ovviamente si matchano anche foto in cui tu 6 appena riconoscibile sullo sfondo di una foto di qualcun altro. Un paio di giornalisti si sono trovate con delle foto diciamo inappropriate che avevano dimenticato e chissà in quale database erano. Insomma tutto questo secondo me in generale e anche le stesse aziende cominciano a fare molti passi indietro rispetto a queste tecnologie. Per cui io sarei su questo, faccio la mia parte di scusami legislatore sarei piuttosto stretto. Devo dire che l'effetto secondo me combinato delle sanzioni di un'attenzione mediatica che probabilmente prima non c'era ma anche grazie a programmi tipo Black Mirror o comunque al racconto di questo tipo di tecnologie qualche effetto ce l' avuto perché ad esempio l'anno scorso Facebook annunciato che avrebbe smesso di sviluppare il riconoscimento facciale all'interno della propria piattaforma per cui c'erano dei processi che sembravano inarrestabili e o anche con un certo atteggiamento degli utenti che dicevano vabbè ma non potremo non andare verso questo il progresso non si può fermare invece una certa sensibilizzazione, un racconto nuovo di queste tecnologie e un atteggiamento sicuramente netto sia dei parlamenti sia delle istituzioni europee poi in questi casi spesso permette di cioè spinge le aziende a agire prima ancora di dell'arrivo di una nuova legislazione e di dire va bene facciamo un passo indietro ci sono dei punti e dei confini che forse non dovremmo superare e quindi ecco l'idea anche nostra di questo podcast è di parlare di questi temi proprio perché più se ne parla più si conoscono anche I rischi di queste tecnologie e più forse si può arrivare prima del danno a creare appunto un framework, un ecosistema legislativo che sia più legato ai nostri principi e ai valori europei o comunque occidentali senza dover per forza dover correre verso un destino ineluttabile che poi ineluttabile non deve essere. Ti posso fermare su questo? Ti posso dire una cosa? Il Ministero degli interni utilizza una tecnologia che si chiama Sari per il riconoscimento delle persone. È stato fatto per lo più sui migranti eccetera ma insomma c'è uno schedario diciamo così enorme. Questo Sari 2 modalità: una prima modalità Enterprise cioè io acquisisco I dati e poi faccio le ricerche sulla base di quel volto. L'altra tecnologia invece si chiama Sari real time e cioè consente in tempo reale di fare questo processo di comparazione con le banche dati eccetera. Ora sul Sari enterprise siamo arrivati troppo tardi e viene utilizzato correntemente. Il serie real time è stato di fatto congelato, quindi non utilizzato, ce lo detto la ministra degli interni in aula, proprio per questo tipo di valutazioni proprio per quello che dicevi te. Cioè il fatto che il Parlamento, l'informazione, l'autorità garante si è mossa per dire forse questo è un po' troppo perché ovviamente fare il matching di tutte le banche dati le più diverse le più disparate relative a un volto è diciamo invasivo non della privacy ma dell'identità digitale quindi dei diritti e delle libertà di ognuno di noi. Perfetto adesso l'ultima domanda chiediamo ai nostri ospiti di consigliarci un profilo Twitter, un libro, una rivista, un'associazione, qualcuno che sia interessante che sia importante da seguire sul tema della puntata. Tu chi ci consigli? Esagerò ti dico sorveglianza. Ci sono delle associazioni penso per tutte privacy network ma anche il centro Erasmus che fanno un lavoro straordinario su questi temi e per quello che riguarda invece un consiglio di un libro c'è un libro che si chiama I figli dell'algoritmo di una studiosa che si chiama Veronica Barassi molto interessante perché racconta come l'algoritmo segue prima ancora non solo della nascita ma praticamente dal concepimento attraverso I dati la vita di un bambino. Quindi già dice l'autrice prima di dirlo a mio marito Google sapeva che io ero incinta e già aveva dei dati su quello che mi stava succedendo. Ecco un libro veramente molto interessante un po' creepy ma di cui consiglio la lettura. Grazie 1000, grazie a Filippo Sensi per essere stato a Tecnopolicy. Grazie a voi. Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.",
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              "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: La tecnica biometrica oggi ci permette di identificare una persona partire dalle sue caratteristiche fisiche come le impronte digitali, la voce, l'iride o il viso. Il riconoscimento facciale è una delle principali applicazioni di questa tecnica usata oggi in moltissimi ambiti, ad esempio per sbloccare in modo sicuro I nostri smartphone. Alla base ci sono I dati biometrici, cioè quei dati personali relativi alle caratteristiche fisiche o comportamentali di un individuo. Rispetto ad altre tecniche biometriche, il riconoscimento facciale è di natura non a contatto e permette di registrare immagini a distanza senza richiedere alcuna interazione con la persona interessata. C'è poi un tema di economicità visto che il riconoscimento facciale è una tecnologia a buon mercato, molto meno costosa di altri strumenti biometrici.\n\nRisvolti positivi, insomma, non è difficile vederne. Pensate a come sarebbe comodo entrare in casa senza dover pescare le chiavi dalla tasca o prelevare senza dover ricordare il pin del bancomat. Non solo comodo, anche sicuro la casa e il bancomat sarebbero a prova di furto, scasso o smarrimento. Ma il riconoscimento facciale, soprattutto quando è usato per l'identificazione biometrica nei luoghi pubblici, anche un lato oscuro: errori, discriminazioni algoritmiche, abuso di potere, sorveglianza di massa e violazione della privacy. L'utilizzo e il trattamento dei dati biometrici è estremamente complesso esposto a rischi e incertezze normative.\n\nAlla crescita esponenziale delle tecnologie del riconoscimento facciale non corrisponde oggi un adeguato processo di regolamentazione. Nel nostro ordinamento non esiste una normativa ad hoc ma il riconoscimento facciale deve rispettare una serie di principi introdotti dal GDPR. Una cosa è certa: sicurezza resta la parola chiave e se questa tecnologia è usata contro o senza un'espressa volontà dei singoli può aprire la strada alla sorveglianza di massa. Emblematico è il caso di Clearview AI con la creazione di un motore di ricerca per il riconoscimento facciale che funziona tramite un enorme database dove pare ci siano oltre 10000000000 di immagini di volti umani in tutto il mondo. Insomma, quando usiamo il riconoscimento facciale siamo sicuri che sia sicuro?\n\nLo abbiamo chiesto all'onorevole Filippo Sensi. Benvenuto a Tecnopolicy a Filippo Sensi, deputato. Grazie a voi per l'invito. La prima domanda del nostro podcast è sempre la stessa ed è sempre molto comoda per chi intervista ed è raccontaci la tua esperienza professionale, raccontaci come 6 arrivato a fare quello che fai oggi, come 6 arrivato a interessarti, a occuparti del tema della puntata, cioè del riconoscimento facciale. Un giornalista ho sempre lavorato un po' alla frontiera tra il giornalismo\n\nSpeaker 1: e la comunicazione politica e come comunicatore politico ho lavorato per l'amministrazione di Roma ho lavorato per partiti politici poi sono stato per 2 volte portavoce a Palazzo Chigi del presidente del consiglio oggi sono un parlamentare del partito democratico e nell'ambito di questa mia esperienza parlamentare ho sviluppato un'attenzione particolare al tema ai temi della tecnologia, alle libertà, alle opportunità che offrono ma anche ai rischi che sono connesse.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ecco e questo è esattamente il tema della puntata. Il riconoscimento facciale già oggi un ampio utilizzo sia in termini di sicurezza sia in termini commerciali. Quali sono però I rischi e I vantaggi di questa tecnologia?\n\nSpeaker 1: Io non voglio essere luddista so bene della diffusione ovviamente ognuno di noi basta avere un cellulare e utilizza il riconoscimento facciale. Penso però che con troppa facilità abbiamo lasciato correre la disponibilità dei nostri dati personali quelli che riguardano la nostra identità quelli che riguardano anche I dati biometrici e che da qualche anno a questa parte non solo in Italia ovviamente anzi in particolare negli Stati Uniti in Gran Bretagna si sia sviluppata una sensibilità che in qualche modo ci dice attenzione a quello che stiamo facendo è importante che quello che noi facciamo lo facciamo con maggiore consapevolezza. Quindi le tecnologie e il riconoscimento facciale oggi sono potentissime permettono l'incrocio di dati personali di data base I più diversi. Secondo me questa può essere rischia di essere in alcuni casi certamente lo è un un rischio pesante per la nostra privacy. Faccio un piccolo inciso, generalmente noi avevamo una visione della privacy come una cosa un po' inglese da siepe di casa.\n\nIo penso che la privacy sia una delle frontiere che riguardano la nostra identità la nostra identità digitale quindi le nostre libertà quindi I nostri diritti. Per cui in capo al riconoscimento facciale credo che oggi ci siano alcune domande e alcune risposte che si devono esigere.\n\nSpeaker 0: Noi qui ci occupiamo di policy e anche di regolamentazione. In Italia c'era stata abbastanza un vuoto in questo campo. L'anno scorso invece c'è stata forse una delle più importanti diciamo passi avanti a livello legislativo quando una regolamentazione del riconoscimento facciale è entrata in un decreto del governo che poi è diventato legge che in questo momento quindi regola questo campo almeno in parte almeno con un inizio di ragionamento anche legislativo qual è stato l'iter che portato fino ad arrivare appunto al decreto a inserire questo questa normativa all'interno di un decreto che era su altre cose ma che poi per fortuna\n\nSpeaker 1: costruito un primo tassello normativo. Sono anni ormai che si parla di riconoscimento facciale di sorveglianza di società della sorveglianza di sorveglianza biometrica e non sono negli Stati Uniti ma insomma anche in Europa. In particolare negli ultimi anni si era sviluppata così una tendenza nelle città da parte di alcune amministrazioni comunali di utilizzare delle telecamere intelligenti. Un po' il trade off è siccome non ho un numero congruo di personale di polizia municipale eccetera eccetera per assicurare la sicurezza accendiamo telecamere e questo da solo è una sorta di deterrente nei confronti della criminalità non è così ovviamente e fino a qui anzi questo è stato incentivato dai vari ministri degli interni che si sono succeduti. La questione però è tecnologica.\n\nNel momento in cui alle telecamere accese su una piazza o accanto a una stazione noi diamo la possibilità di utilizzare una tecnologia più raffinata che magari compara matcha come si dice nell'orrido gergo tecnico. I dati di chi passa in quel momento nella piazza con I suoi dati cioè automaticamente andando a ricercare I suoi post su Instagram oppure il suo storico sui social oppure altre banche dati in cui lui figura, a questo punto noi ci troviamo di fronte a una sorta di pesca a strascico. Per cui siamo intervenuti in parlamento e chiedendo anche la forza di legge dell'Authority per limitare anzi per vietare la possibilità di utilizzare il riconoscimento facciale in queste telecamere e devo dire che abbiamo avuto ragione. Ho pensato poi che però diciamo era un po' un pezzetto alla volta andare a Como si fa così a Udine si fa così insomma si inseguiva un po' una una fatica di Sisifo. Allora ho pensato che forse sarebbe stato il caso di chiedere una moratoria sull'utilizzo delle tecnologie di riconoscimento facciale nei sistemi ovviamente di videosorveglianza nei luoghi pubblici.\n\nPensavo che sarebbe stato impossibile farlo devo dire che abbiamo scelto un veicolo legislativo un po' che si occupava di altro quindi l'abbiamo nascosto dentro questa legge. Abbiamo chiesto una moratoria che vuol dire una sospensione. Qual era la ratio? Siccome il parlamento europeo sta deliberando e sta decidendo su questo sull'intelligenza artificiale e anche sul riconoscimento facciale. Prendiamoci una finestra, cioè vietiamo il riconoscimento facciale per un tot periodo di tempo fintanto che il parlamento europeo non riuscirà a legiferare a quel punto noi recepiremo la normativa ovviamente adattandola alla nostra vita, al nostro sistema e questo però ci consente di evitare che di nuovo possano sorgere sindaci che vogliono mettere il software tal dei tali nella piazza oppure che chiunque possa fare quello che vuole con I dati biometrici delle persone che semplicemente si trovano a passare per caso in una piazza.\n\nOggi fino a dicembre 2023 c'è questa sospensione che siamo riusciti inopinatamente a ottenere. Devo dire che c'è stato anche un grande interesse a livello europeo la settimana scorsa è arrivata una delegazione di verdi europei per dire come è stato possibile, come è successo, vogliamo riprodurlo e farlo anche noi. A Strasburgo si sta ragionando su si va verso una moratoria si consentiranno alcuni utilizzi altri no oppure solamente si farà giustizia una volta per tutto il riconoscimento facciale nei luoghi pubblici ovviamente una battaglia epocale e ovviamente si va per passi e non per\n\nSpeaker 0: rivoluzioni. Ecco parliamo proprio di Europa perché c'è stata sia una risoluzione del parlamento europeo che chiedeva alla commissione di occuparsi di questo tema e sia però c'è stata un'apertura nei confronti del riconoscimento facciale a livello per esempio degli aeroporti perché ciascuno di noi ormai è abituato tanti anni a passare attraverso alcuni aeroporti e in ogni caso a registrare il proprio volto o le proprie impronte digitali e quindi con la scusa tra virgolette da una parte della velocità del passaggio e del riconoscimento dei viaggiatori e dall'altra della sicurezza perché ovviamente ci sono stati ovviamente attentati o tentati in questi anni questo è uno di quei di quegli ambiti in cui si è aperta la possibilità dell'uso riconoscimento facciale Quali sono però cioè quali sono le forze in Europa che vanno verso un maggior utilizzo del riconoscimento facciale? Perché nel mondo noi sappiamo che noi non la pensiamo in Europa né come la Cina dove ovviamente c'è un uso indiscriminato e quasi ormai capillare delle telecamere e non solo ma neanche negli Stati Uniti che ovviamente mettono la sicurezza spesso prima della della privacy e che hanno un problema in molti casi di gestione di questo tipo di tecnologie e poi c'hanno un problema ovviamente di stati e di federale per cui anche lì è meno facile armonizzare la cosa.\n\nIn Europa riusciremo secondo te ad armonizzare o ad avere un regolamento che riesca a disporre di questo tema\n\nSpeaker 1: a livello comunitario? Io sono voglio essere fiducioso penso di sì nel senso che l'Europa si è ricavata un suo ruolo che è quella un po' di arbitro di terzo grazie al GDPR noi abbiamo una riconosciuta autorevolezza nel mondo dal punto di vista dei diritti, dei paletti, della cornice, del framework, dei diritti anche connessi appunto alle nuove tecnologie. Il trade-off sicurezza-libertà è un trade-off al quale io risponderei responsabilità. Cioè il modello americano, cioè il mercato fa un po' come gli pare vi prendo tutti I dati tanto voi più o meno avete tutti bisogno di quella chat o di quella app e poi facciamo noi noi chi punto interrogativo e il modello invece ipersecuritario e ovviamente autoritario diciamo cinese secondo me possono trovare in questo bilanciamento da arbitro della situazione nell'Europa un presidio sicuro anche negli anni che verranno semmai possiamo chiederci se l'Europa sarà in grado in futuro di competere sul settore della intelligenza artificiale non solo come regolatore ma anche come player tra questi 2 giganti e questa è una grande scommessa. La questione però è posta, dicevi te giustamente, il Parlamento Europeo chiesto alla Commissione di esprimersi.\n\nLa Commissione si è espressa con una comunicazione che lasciato un po' larghe le maglie. Adesso il Parlamento dovrà fare un atto che recepisce ovviamente il lavoro della Commissione e renderlo secondo me più stringente sull'utilizzo di alcune tecnologie o di alcuni usi e utilizzi della tecnologia. Penso ovviamente al riconoscimento facciale e in generale anche alle tecnologie di social scoring e cioè l'idea che ai tuoi comportamenti possa essere legato un fattore premiale relativamente ai tuoi diritti che insomma ovviamente per la sensibilità europea e per la sensibilità occidentale è inaccettabile. Ci stanno lavorando credo che il prossimo anno il 2023 sarà l'anno decisivo per avere un ordinamento giuridico europeo quindi vincolante per I paesi dell'unione intelligente e capace di fissare alcuni paletti una volta per tutti.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bene e però appunto abbiamo dei casi anche in occidente in cui ci sono delle società che invece vengono sanzionate che invece si scopre solo dopo che hanno agito in maniera illegittima ed è il caso di clear view AI che è stata sanzionata e che è nell'occhio del ciclo sia negli Stati Uniti che nel Regno Unito per una serie di appunto raccolte di dati e non autorizzate e uso indiscriminato. Come come si deve fare in questi casi? Qual è il giusto approccio nei confronti di soggetti privati come questi che comunque spesso fanno delle raccolte che magari in alcuni casi sono state anche autorizzate o dall'utente o dalla pubblica amministrazione che non sa che adottando una certa tecnologia poi c'è dietro un mondo di raccolta dati che poi emerge solo in caso di un'inchiesta o di un whistleblower che ne parla eccetera.\n\nSpeaker 1: E' un tema molto delicato Clearview A. I. È diventato un caso internazionale Tra l'altro, dopo I rovesci delle multe, delle sanzioni e delle polemiche che suscitato la tecnologia di Clearview AI l'azienda cercato di fare una sorta di operazione di remake. Di recente lo fatto in Ucraina dando la disponibilità alle autorità ucraine di utilizzare le loro tecnologie per evitare il traffico dei bambini alla frontiera o per riconoscere I militari russi che erano già operativi dentro il Paese. Quindi perché alla fine che cosa vende un'azienda come Clearview AI?\n\nVende la pretesa, l'illusione della sicurezza. Ti do un maggiore controllo e approssimando a 0 possibilmente l'errore, l'errore statistico e in questo senso voi siete più sicuri nelle vostre case nelle vostre città o dovunque sia. Purtroppo I bias e gli errori dell'algoritmo alcuni bias che stanno alle spalle alle origini stesse dell'algoritmo fanno sì che in particolare negli Stati Uniti si sono riscontrati tantissimi bias di genere bias etnici che rendono poco efficace questo tipo di tecnologia. Dobbiamo avere un atteggiamento punitivo nei confronti di qualsiasi tipo di tecnologia e riconoscimento facciale. Io sono piuttosto scettico fammi fare la parte di quello rigido su questo fronte anche se la moratoria approvata in Italia è stata criticata giustamente dalle organizzazioni dalle ONG che sono dedicate alla privacy come troppo blanda rispetto a un bando un divieto una volta per tutti.\n\nIo penso che mettere il motore di una Ferrari dentro uno chassis di una utilitaria non funziona e quindi pensare che un certo tipo di tecnologia che consente una capacità di penetrazione così minuta nella vita delle persone secondo me è bene dire questo non lo possiamo fare fermiamoci un passo prima. Ti dico un'ultima cosa di recente il New York Times fatto un'operazione con un'altra azienda con una specie di app, di riconoscimento facciale che è disponibile in rete. E una giornalista, il New York Times chiesto a vari colleghi di provare, dice mettete la vostra faccia, vedete il match delle foto, delle immagini che viene fuori. E l'articolo del New York Times è impressionante perché ovviamente si matchano anche foto in cui tu 6 appena riconoscibile sullo sfondo di una foto di qualcun altro. Un paio di giornalisti si sono trovate con delle foto diciamo inappropriate che avevano dimenticato e chissà in quale database erano.\n\nInsomma tutto questo secondo me in generale e anche le stesse aziende cominciano a fare molti passi indietro rispetto a queste tecnologie. Per cui io sarei su questo, faccio la mia parte di scusami legislatore sarei piuttosto stretto.\n\nSpeaker 0: Devo dire che l'effetto secondo me combinato delle sanzioni di un'attenzione mediatica che probabilmente prima non c'era ma anche grazie a programmi tipo Black Mirror o comunque al racconto di questo tipo di tecnologie qualche effetto ce l' avuto perché ad esempio l'anno scorso Facebook annunciato che avrebbe smesso di sviluppare il riconoscimento facciale all'interno della propria piattaforma per cui c'erano dei processi che sembravano inarrestabili e o anche con un certo atteggiamento degli utenti che dicevano vabbè ma non potremo non andare verso questo il progresso non si può fermare invece una certa sensibilizzazione, un racconto nuovo di queste tecnologie e un atteggiamento sicuramente netto sia dei parlamenti sia delle istituzioni europee poi in questi casi spesso permette di cioè spinge le aziende a agire prima ancora di dell'arrivo di una nuova legislazione e di dire va bene facciamo un passo indietro ci sono dei punti e dei confini che forse non dovremmo superare e quindi ecco l'idea anche nostra di questo podcast è di parlare di questi temi proprio perché più se ne parla più si conoscono anche I rischi di queste tecnologie e più forse si può arrivare prima del danno a creare appunto un framework, un ecosistema legislativo che sia più legato ai nostri principi e ai valori europei o comunque occidentali senza dover per forza dover correre verso un destino ineluttabile che poi ineluttabile non deve essere.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ti posso fermare su questo? Ti posso dire una cosa? Il Ministero degli interni utilizza una tecnologia che si chiama Sari per il riconoscimento delle persone. È stato fatto per lo più sui migranti eccetera ma insomma c'è uno schedario diciamo così enorme. Questo Sari 2 modalità: una prima modalità Enterprise cioè io acquisisco I dati e poi faccio le ricerche sulla base di quel volto.\n\nL'altra tecnologia invece si chiama Sari real time e cioè consente in tempo reale di fare questo processo di comparazione con le banche dati eccetera. Ora sul Sari enterprise siamo arrivati troppo tardi e viene utilizzato correntemente. Il serie real time è stato di fatto congelato, quindi non utilizzato, ce lo detto la ministra degli interni in aula, proprio per questo tipo di valutazioni proprio per quello che dicevi te. Cioè il fatto che il Parlamento, l'informazione, l'autorità garante si è mossa per dire forse questo è un po' troppo perché ovviamente fare il matching di tutte le banche dati le più diverse le più disparate relative a un volto è diciamo invasivo non della privacy ma dell'identità digitale quindi dei diritti e delle libertà di ognuno di noi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Perfetto adesso l'ultima domanda chiediamo ai nostri ospiti di consigliarci un profilo Twitter, un libro, una rivista, un'associazione, qualcuno che sia interessante che sia importante da seguire sul tema della puntata. Tu chi ci consigli? Esagerò ti dico\n\nSpeaker 1: sorveglianza. Ci sono delle associazioni penso per tutte privacy network ma anche il centro Erasmus che fanno un lavoro straordinario su questi temi e per quello che riguarda invece un consiglio di un libro c'è un libro che si chiama I figli dell'algoritmo di una studiosa che si chiama Veronica Barassi molto interessante perché racconta come l'algoritmo segue prima ancora non solo della nascita ma praticamente dal concepimento attraverso I dati la vita di un bambino. Quindi già dice l'autrice prima di dirlo a mio marito Google sapeva che io ero incinta e già aveva dei dati su quello che mi stava succedendo. Ecco un libro veramente molto interessante un po' creepy ma di cui consiglio la lettura.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie 1000, grazie a Filippo Sensi per essere stato a Tecnopolicy. Grazie a voi. Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.",
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                      "text": "La tecnica biometrica oggi ci permette di identificare una persona partire dalle sue caratteristiche fisiche come le impronte digitali, la voce, l'iride o il viso.",
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                      "text": "Il riconoscimento facciale è una delle principali applicazioni di questa tecnica usata oggi in moltissimi ambiti, ad esempio per sbloccare in modo sicuro I nostri smartphone.",
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                      "text": "Alla base ci sono I dati biometrici, cioè quei dati personali relativi alle caratteristiche fisiche o comportamentali di un individuo.",
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                      "text": "Rispetto ad altre tecniche biometriche, il riconoscimento facciale è di natura non a contatto e permette di registrare immagini a distanza senza richiedere alcuna interazione con la persona interessata.",
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                      "text": "C'è poi un tema di economicità visto che il riconoscimento facciale è una tecnologia a buon mercato, molto meno costosa di altri strumenti biometrici.",
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                      "text": "Ma il riconoscimento facciale, soprattutto quando è usato per l'identificazione biometrica nei luoghi pubblici, anche un lato oscuro: errori, discriminazioni algoritmiche, abuso di potere, sorveglianza di massa e violazione della privacy.",
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                      "text": "Una cosa è certa: sicurezza resta la parola chiave e se questa tecnologia è usata contro o senza un'espressa volontà dei singoli può aprire la strada alla sorveglianza di massa.",
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                      "text": "Emblematico è il caso di Clearview AI con la creazione di un motore di ricerca per il riconoscimento facciale che funziona tramite un enorme database dove pare ci siano oltre 10000000000 di immagini di volti umani in tutto il mondo.",
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                      "text": "Grazie a voi per l'invito.",
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                      "text": "La prima domanda del nostro podcast è sempre la stessa ed è sempre molto comoda per chi intervista ed è raccontaci la tua esperienza professionale, raccontaci come 6 arrivato a fare quello che fai oggi, come 6 arrivato a interessarti, a occuparti del tema della puntata, cioè del riconoscimento facciale.",
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                      "text": "Un giornalista ho sempre lavorato un po' alla frontiera tra il giornalismo",
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Penso però che con troppa facilità abbiamo lasciato correre la disponibilità dei nostri dati personali quelli che riguardano la nostra identità quelli che riguardano anche I dati biometrici e che da qualche anno a questa parte non solo in Italia ovviamente anzi in particolare negli Stati Uniti in Gran Bretagna si sia sviluppata una sensibilità che in qualche modo ci dice attenzione a quello che stiamo facendo è importante che quello che noi facciamo lo facciamo con maggiore consapevolezza.",
                      "start": 234.24,
                      "end": 261.245
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Quindi le tecnologie e il riconoscimento facciale oggi sono potentissime permettono l'incrocio di dati personali di data base I più diversi.",
                      "start": 261.68,
                      "end": 272.34
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Secondo me questa può essere rischia di essere in alcuni casi certamente lo è un un rischio pesante per la nostra privacy.",
                      "start": 272.96,
                      "end": 280.395
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Faccio un piccolo inciso, generalmente noi avevamo una visione della privacy come una cosa un po' inglese da siepe di casa.",
                      "start": 281.255,
                      "end": 287.435
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 222.205,
                  "end": 287.435,
                  "num_words": 165.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Io penso che la privacy sia una delle frontiere che riguardano la nostra identità la nostra identità digitale quindi le nostre libertà quindi I nostri diritti.",
                      "start": 287.495,
                      "end": 296.0
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Per cui in capo al riconoscimento facciale credo che oggi ci siano alcune domande e alcune risposte che si devono esigere.",
                      "start": 296.22,
                      "end": 303.28
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 287.495,
                  "end": 303.28,
                  "num_words": 47.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Noi qui ci occupiamo di policy e anche di regolamentazione.",
                      "start": 304.595,
                      "end": 307.655
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "In Italia c'era stata abbastanza un vuoto in questo campo.",
                      "start": 308.275,
                      "end": 313.07498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "L'anno scorso invece c'è stata forse una delle più importanti diciamo passi avanti a livello legislativo quando una regolamentazione del riconoscimento facciale è entrata in un decreto del governo che poi è diventato legge che in questo momento quindi regola questo campo almeno in parte almeno con un inizio di ragionamento anche legislativo qual è stato l'iter che portato fino ad arrivare appunto al decreto a inserire questo questa normativa all'interno di un decreto che era su altre cose ma che poi per fortuna",
                      "start": 313.07498,
                      "end": 352.01
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 304.595,
                  "end": 352.01,
                  "num_words": 104.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "costruito un primo tassello normativo.",
                      "start": 353.03,
                      "end": 356.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Sono anni ormai che si parla di riconoscimento facciale di sorveglianza di società della sorveglianza di sorveglianza biometrica e non sono negli Stati Uniti ma insomma anche in Europa.",
                      "start": 356.63,
                      "end": 368.475
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "In particolare negli ultimi anni si era sviluppata così una tendenza nelle città da parte di alcune amministrazioni comunali di utilizzare delle telecamere intelligenti.",
                      "start": 369.095,
                      "end": 380.28998
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Un po' il trade off è siccome non ho un numero congruo di personale di polizia municipale eccetera eccetera per assicurare la sicurezza accendiamo telecamere e questo da solo è una sorta di deterrente nei confronti della criminalità non è così ovviamente e fino a qui anzi questo è stato incentivato dai vari ministri degli interni che si sono succeduti.",
                      "start": 380.28998,
                      "end": 404.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "La questione però è tecnologica.",
                      "start": 404.97,
                      "end": 406.27002
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 353.03,
                  "end": 406.27002,
                  "num_words": 123.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Nel momento in cui alle telecamere accese su una piazza o accanto a una stazione noi diamo la possibilità di utilizzare una tecnologia più raffinata che magari compara matcha come si dice nell'orrido gergo tecnico.",
                      "start": 406.57,
                      "end": 424.10498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I dati di chi passa in quel momento nella piazza con I suoi dati cioè automaticamente andando a ricercare I suoi post su Instagram oppure il suo storico sui social oppure altre banche dati in cui lui figura, a questo punto noi ci troviamo di fronte a una sorta di pesca a strascico.",
                      "start": 424.645,
                      "end": 443.57
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Per cui siamo intervenuti in parlamento e chiedendo anche la forza di legge dell'Authority per limitare anzi per vietare la possibilità di utilizzare il riconoscimento facciale in queste telecamere e devo dire che abbiamo avuto ragione.",
                      "start": 443.97498,
                      "end": 461.38
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ho pensato poi che però diciamo era un po' un pezzetto alla volta andare a Como si fa così a Udine si fa così insomma si inseguiva un po' una una fatica di Sisifo.",
                      "start": 462.4,
                      "end": 476.215
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Allora ho pensato che forse sarebbe stato il caso di chiedere una moratoria sull'utilizzo delle tecnologie di riconoscimento facciale nei sistemi ovviamente di videosorveglianza nei luoghi pubblici.",
                      "start": 476.275,
                      "end": 488.615
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 406.57,
                  "end": 488.615,
                  "num_words": 185.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Pensavo che sarebbe stato impossibile farlo devo dire che abbiamo scelto un veicolo legislativo un po' che si occupava di altro quindi l'abbiamo nascosto dentro questa legge.",
                      "start": 490.47,
                      "end": 504.505
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Abbiamo chiesto una moratoria che vuol dire una sospensione.",
                      "start": 505.76498,
                      "end": 508.905
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Qual era la ratio?",
                      "start": 509.685,
                      "end": 510.66498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Siccome il parlamento europeo sta deliberando e sta decidendo su questo sull'intelligenza artificiale e anche sul riconoscimento facciale.",
                      "start": 510.725,
                      "end": 518.27997
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Prendiamoci una finestra, cioè vietiamo il riconoscimento facciale per un tot periodo di tempo fintanto che il parlamento europeo non riuscirà a legiferare a quel punto noi recepiremo la normativa ovviamente adattandola alla nostra vita, al nostro sistema e questo però ci consente di evitare che di nuovo possano sorgere sindaci che vogliono mettere il software tal dei tali nella piazza oppure che chiunque possa fare quello che vuole con I dati biometrici delle persone che semplicemente si trovano a passare per caso in una piazza.",
                      "start": 518.57996,
                      "end": 552.76996
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 490.47,
                  "end": 552.76996,
                  "num_words": 144.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Oggi fino a dicembre 2023 c'è questa sospensione che siamo riusciti inopinatamente a ottenere.",
                      "start": 552.76996,
                      "end": 559.91
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Devo dire che c'è stato anche un grande interesse a livello europeo la settimana scorsa è arrivata una delegazione di verdi europei per dire come è stato possibile, come è successo, vogliamo riprodurlo e farlo anche noi.",
                      "start": 560.135,
                      "end": 571.595
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "A Strasburgo si sta ragionando su si va verso una moratoria si consentiranno alcuni utilizzi altri no oppure solamente si farà giustizia una volta per tutto il riconoscimento facciale nei luoghi pubblici ovviamente una battaglia epocale e ovviamente si va per passi e non per",
                      "start": 572.21497,
                      "end": 591.355
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 552.76996,
                  "end": 591.355,
                  "num_words": 96.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "rivoluzioni.",
                      "start": 591.89496,
                      "end": 592.295
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ecco parliamo proprio di Europa perché c'è stata sia una risoluzione del parlamento europeo che chiedeva alla commissione di occuparsi di questo tema e sia però c'è stata un'apertura nei confronti del riconoscimento facciale a livello per esempio degli aeroporti perché ciascuno di noi ormai è abituato tanti anni a passare attraverso alcuni aeroporti e in ogni caso a registrare il proprio volto o le proprie impronte digitali e quindi con la scusa tra virgolette da una parte della velocità del passaggio e del riconoscimento dei viaggiatori e dall'altra della sicurezza perché ovviamente ci sono stati ovviamente attentati o tentati in questi anni questo è uno di quei di quegli ambiti in cui si è aperta la possibilità dell'uso riconoscimento facciale Quali sono però cioè quali sono le forze in Europa che vanno verso un maggior utilizzo del riconoscimento facciale?",
                      "start": 592.295,
                      "end": 654.565
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Perché nel mondo noi sappiamo che noi non la pensiamo in Europa né come la Cina dove ovviamente c'è un uso indiscriminato e quasi ormai capillare delle telecamere e non solo ma neanche negli Stati Uniti che ovviamente mettono la sicurezza spesso prima della della privacy e che hanno un problema in molti casi di gestione di questo tipo di tecnologie e poi c'hanno un problema ovviamente di stati e di federale per cui anche lì è meno facile armonizzare la cosa.",
                      "start": 654.565,
                      "end": 689.05
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 591.89496,
                  "end": 689.05,
                  "num_words": 223.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "In Europa riusciremo secondo te ad armonizzare o ad avere un regolamento che riesca a disporre di questo tema",
                      "start": 689.05,
                      "end": 697.23
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 689.05,
                  "end": 697.23,
                  "num_words": 19.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "a livello comunitario?",
                      "start": 697.44995,
                      "end": 698.43
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Io sono voglio essere fiducioso penso di sì nel senso che l'Europa si è ricavata un suo ruolo che è quella un po' di arbitro di terzo grazie al GDPR noi abbiamo una riconosciuta autorevolezza nel mondo dal punto di vista dei diritti, dei paletti, della cornice, del framework, dei diritti anche connessi appunto alle nuove tecnologie.",
                      "start": 699.785,
                      "end": 724.74005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Il trade-off sicurezza-libertà è un trade-off al quale io risponderei responsabilità.",
                      "start": 725.375,
                      "end": 731.635
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Cioè il modello americano, cioè il mercato fa un po' come gli pare vi prendo tutti I dati tanto voi più o meno avete tutti bisogno di quella chat o di quella app e poi facciamo noi noi chi punto interrogativo e il modello invece ipersecuritario e ovviamente autoritario diciamo cinese secondo me possono trovare in questo bilanciamento da arbitro della situazione nell'Europa un presidio sicuro anche negli anni che verranno semmai possiamo chiederci se l'Europa sarà in grado in futuro di competere sul settore della intelligenza artificiale non solo come regolatore ma anche come player tra questi 2 giganti e questa è una grande scommessa.",
                      "start": 732.415,
                      "end": 773.54
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "La questione però è posta, dicevi te giustamente, il Parlamento Europeo chiesto alla Commissione di esprimersi.",
                      "start": 774.08,
                      "end": 783.235
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 697.44995,
                  "end": 783.235,
                  "num_words": 193.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "La Commissione si è espressa con una comunicazione che lasciato un po' larghe le maglie.",
                      "start": 783.295,
                      "end": 788.675
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Adesso il Parlamento dovrà fare un atto che recepisce ovviamente il lavoro della Commissione e renderlo secondo me più stringente sull'utilizzo di alcune tecnologie o di alcuni usi e utilizzi della tecnologia.",
                      "start": 789.135,
                      "end": 806.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Penso ovviamente al riconoscimento facciale e in generale anche alle tecnologie di social scoring e cioè l'idea che ai tuoi comportamenti possa essere legato un fattore premiale relativamente ai tuoi diritti che insomma ovviamente per la sensibilità europea e per la sensibilità occidentale è inaccettabile.",
                      "start": 806.83,
                      "end": 829.82
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ci stanno lavorando credo che il prossimo anno il 2023 sarà l'anno decisivo per avere un ordinamento giuridico europeo quindi vincolante per I paesi dell'unione intelligente e capace di fissare alcuni paletti una volta per tutti.",
                      "start": 830.2,
                      "end": 847.565
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 783.295,
                  "end": 847.565,
                  "num_words": 128.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Bene e però appunto abbiamo dei casi anche in occidente in cui ci sono delle società che invece vengono sanzionate che invece si scopre solo dopo che hanno agito in maniera illegittima ed è il caso di clear view AI che è stata sanzionata e che è nell'occhio del ciclo sia negli Stati Uniti che nel Regno Unito per una serie di appunto raccolte di dati e non autorizzate e uso indiscriminato.",
                      "start": 847.565,
                      "end": 878.39496
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Come come si deve fare in questi casi?",
                      "start": 879.8,
                      "end": 882.06
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Qual è il giusto approccio nei confronti di soggetti privati come questi che comunque spesso fanno delle raccolte che magari in alcuni casi sono state anche autorizzate o dall'utente o dalla pubblica amministrazione che non sa che adottando una certa tecnologia poi c'è dietro un mondo di raccolta dati che poi emerge solo in caso di un'inchiesta o di un whistleblower che ne parla eccetera.",
                      "start": 882.84,
                      "end": 912.99
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 847.565,
                  "end": 912.99,
                  "num_words": 145.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "E' un tema molto delicato Clearview A.",
                      "start": 913.85004,
                      "end": 916.41003
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "I.",
                      "start": 916.41003,
                      "end": 916.65
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "È diventato un caso internazionale Tra l'altro, dopo I rovesci delle multe, delle sanzioni e delle polemiche che suscitato la tecnologia di Clearview AI l'azienda cercato di fare una sorta di operazione di remake.",
                      "start": 916.65,
                      "end": 934.035
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Di recente lo fatto in Ucraina dando la disponibilità alle autorità ucraine di utilizzare le loro tecnologie per evitare il traffico dei bambini alla frontiera o per riconoscere I militari russi che erano già operativi dentro il Paese.",
                      "start": 934.4,
                      "end": 953.085
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Quindi perché alla fine che cosa vende un'azienda come Clearview AI?",
                      "start": 954.505,
                      "end": 959.30505
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 913.85004,
                  "end": 959.30505,
                  "num_words": 91.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Vende la pretesa, l'illusione della sicurezza.",
                      "start": 959.30505,
                      "end": 963.005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ti do un maggiore controllo e approssimando a 0 possibilmente l'errore, l'errore statistico e in questo senso voi siete più sicuri nelle vostre case nelle vostre città o dovunque sia.",
                      "start": 963.63,
                      "end": 978.255
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Purtroppo I bias e gli errori dell'algoritmo alcuni bias che stanno alle spalle alle origini stesse dell'algoritmo fanno sì che in particolare negli Stati Uniti si sono riscontrati tantissimi bias di genere bias etnici che rendono poco efficace questo tipo di tecnologia.",
                      "start": 978.495,
                      "end": 1000.68
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dobbiamo avere un atteggiamento punitivo nei confronti di qualsiasi tipo di tecnologia e riconoscimento facciale.",
                      "start": 1000.98,
                      "end": 1007.48
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Io sono piuttosto scettico fammi fare la parte di quello rigido su questo fronte anche se la moratoria approvata in Italia è stata criticata giustamente dalle organizzazioni dalle ONG che sono dedicate alla privacy come troppo blanda rispetto a un bando un divieto una volta per tutti.",
                      "start": 1008.53503,
                      "end": 1028.26
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 959.30505,
                  "end": 1028.26,
                  "num_words": 140.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Io penso che mettere il motore di una Ferrari dentro uno chassis di una utilitaria non funziona e quindi pensare che un certo tipo di tecnologia che consente una capacità di penetrazione così minuta nella vita delle persone secondo me è bene dire questo non lo possiamo fare fermiamoci un passo prima.",
                      "start": 1029.52,
                      "end": 1054.7899
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ti dico un'ultima cosa di recente il New York Times fatto un'operazione con un'altra azienda con una specie di app, di riconoscimento facciale che è disponibile in rete.",
                      "start": 1054.7899,
                      "end": 1066.535
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "E una giornalista, il New York Times chiesto a vari colleghi di provare, dice mettete la vostra faccia, vedete il match delle foto, delle immagini che viene fuori.",
                      "start": 1066.915,
                      "end": 1075.815
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "E l'articolo del New York Times è impressionante perché ovviamente si matchano anche foto in cui tu 6 appena riconoscibile sullo sfondo di una foto di qualcun altro.",
                      "start": 1076.0599,
                      "end": 1086.88
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Un paio di giornalisti si sono trovate con delle foto diciamo inappropriate che avevano dimenticato e chissà in quale database erano.",
                      "start": 1087.1,
                      "end": 1095.855
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1029.52,
                  "end": 1095.855,
                  "num_words": 157.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Insomma tutto questo secondo me in generale e anche le stesse aziende cominciano a fare molti passi indietro rispetto a queste tecnologie.",
                      "start": 1096.395,
                      "end": 1105.515
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Per cui io sarei su questo, faccio la mia parte di scusami legislatore sarei piuttosto stretto.",
                      "start": 1105.515,
                      "end": 1111.99
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1096.395,
                  "end": 1111.99,
                  "num_words": 38.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Devo dire che l'effetto secondo me combinato delle sanzioni di un'attenzione mediatica che probabilmente prima non c'era ma anche grazie a programmi tipo Black Mirror o comunque al racconto di questo tipo di tecnologie qualche effetto ce l' avuto perché ad esempio l'anno scorso Facebook annunciato che avrebbe smesso di sviluppare il riconoscimento facciale all'interno della propria piattaforma per cui c'erano dei processi che sembravano inarrestabili e o anche con un certo atteggiamento degli utenti che dicevano vabbè ma non potremo non andare verso questo il progresso non si può fermare invece una certa sensibilizzazione, un racconto nuovo di queste tecnologie e un atteggiamento sicuramente netto sia dei parlamenti sia delle istituzioni europee poi in questi casi spesso permette di cioè spinge le aziende a agire prima ancora di dell'arrivo di una nuova legislazione e di dire va bene facciamo un passo indietro ci sono dei punti e dei confini che forse non dovremmo superare e quindi ecco l'idea anche nostra di questo podcast è di parlare di questi temi proprio perché più se ne parla più si conoscono anche I rischi di queste tecnologie e più forse si può arrivare prima del danno a creare appunto un framework, un ecosistema legislativo che sia più legato ai nostri principi e ai valori europei o comunque occidentali senza dover per forza dover correre verso un destino ineluttabile che poi ineluttabile non deve essere.",
                      "start": 1112.61,
                      "end": 1213.935
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1112.61,
                  "end": 1213.935,
                  "num_words": 232.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ti posso fermare su questo?",
                      "start": 1213.935,
                      "end": 1215.535
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ti posso dire una cosa?",
                      "start": 1215.535,
                      "end": 1216.755
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Il Ministero degli interni utilizza una tecnologia che si chiama Sari per il riconoscimento delle persone.",
                      "start": 1217.775,
                      "end": 1226.61
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "È stato fatto per lo più sui migranti eccetera ma insomma c'è uno schedario diciamo così enorme.",
                      "start": 1228.27,
                      "end": 1233.73
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Questo Sari 2 modalità: una prima modalità Enterprise cioè io acquisisco I dati e poi faccio le ricerche sulla base di quel volto.",
                      "start": 1234.045,
                      "end": 1243.825
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1213.935,
                  "end": 1243.825,
                  "num_words": 66.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "L'altra tecnologia invece si chiama Sari real time e cioè consente in tempo reale di fare questo processo di comparazione con le banche dati eccetera.",
                      "start": 1245.005,
                      "end": 1255.5499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ora sul Sari enterprise siamo arrivati troppo tardi e viene utilizzato correntemente.",
                      "start": 1255.77,
                      "end": 1260.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Il serie real time è stato di fatto congelato, quindi non utilizzato, ce lo detto la ministra degli interni in aula, proprio per questo tipo di valutazioni proprio per quello che dicevi te.",
                      "start": 1261.1449,
                      "end": 1273.625
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Cioè il fatto che il Parlamento, l'informazione, l'autorità garante si è mossa per dire forse questo è un po' troppo perché ovviamente fare il matching di tutte le banche dati le più diverse le più disparate relative a un volto è diciamo invasivo non della privacy ma dell'identità digitale quindi dei diritti e delle libertà di ognuno di noi.",
                      "start": 1273.625,
                      "end": 1299.075
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1245.005,
                  "end": 1299.075,
                  "num_words": 129.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Perfetto adesso l'ultima domanda chiediamo ai nostri ospiti di consigliarci un profilo Twitter, un libro, una rivista, un'associazione, qualcuno che sia interessante che sia importante da seguire sul tema della puntata.",
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                      "text": "Esagerò ti dico",
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                      "text": "Ci sono delle associazioni penso per tutte privacy network ma anche il centro Erasmus che fanno un lavoro straordinario su questi temi e per quello che riguarda invece un consiglio di un libro c'è un libro che si chiama I figli dell'algoritmo di una studiosa che si chiama Veronica Barassi molto interessante perché racconta come l'algoritmo segue prima ancora non solo della nascita ma praticamente dal concepimento attraverso I dati la vita di un bambino.",
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                      "text": "Quindi già dice l'autrice prima di dirlo a mio marito Google sapeva che io ero incinta e già aveva dei dati su quello che mi stava succedendo.",
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