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La pandemia riacceso I riflettori del dibattito sulla sovranità e sull'autonomia strategica ma in realtà Bruxelles aveva tentato di tracciare I confini del proprio spazio digitale ben prima del Covid e in perfetto stile europeo lo aveva fatto a colpi di regolazione e interventi normativi. Quando la Commissione Von der Leyen è entrata in carica nel 2019 il potenziamento delle capacità digitali in tutta l'Unione è stato sin da subito una priorità assoluta. Nella sua prima dichiarazione la presidente apertamente chiesto all'Europa di raggiungere la sovranità in alcune aree tecnologiche critiche. Dati e cloud computing sono ambiti emblematici di questa aspirazione. I primi passi nel settore risalgono al 2010 quando in paesi come Francia e Germania sono stati definiti diversi progetti di cloud europeo nel tentativo di fornire una soluzione alternativa ai servizi digitali delle società straniere che al momento presidiavano il mercato dell'Unione Europea. 9 anni dopo, nel 2019, nasce Gaia X, il primo concreto progetto di cloud paneuropeo ma anche uno dei tentativi più ambiziosi nel percorso di definizione di sovranità digitale europea. Di sovranità non si può dimenticare che il Vecchio Continente dipendenze strutturali, sia con gli Stati Uniti sia con la Cina, in una varietà di domini che spaziano dalle piattaforme alle infrastrutture di telecomunicazione. Autonomia strategica significa velleitariamente autarchia? La ricerca della sovranità, inaspendo le differenze normative fra gli stati, avrà implicazioni sulla futura competitività globale? Esiste forse un rischio di tripartizione del mondo con delle sfere di influenza corrispondenti a nuove forme di sovranità tra Stati Uniti, Cina e Unione Europea? Ne parliamo con Rosario Acerra, presidente del Centro Economia Digitale. Bentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Rosario Cerra. Grazie, grazie per l'invito. Grazie per essere con noi. Dunque la prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché La ammolliamo all'ospite come domanda, come responsabilità. Chiediamo all'ospite di raccontarci chi è e come è arrivato oggi a fare quello che sta facendo. Allora domanda semplice ma lunga no vabbè faccio la faccio molto breve sostanzialmente io ho un percorso professionale imprenditoriale nella consulenza strategica alle organizzazioni complesse Le organizzazioni complesse sono le grandi corporation, sono le istituzioni e le associazioni. In quest'ambito mi occupo prevalentemente di innovazione innovazione in senso generale e soprattutto della sua implementazione. Devo dire che nel corso del tempo ci sono state 2 aspetti di questo percorso che per me sono stati rilevanti. Il primo è stato l'aspetto formativo nel senso che nei tempi in cui non era mainstream io ho puntato molto sulla sulla multidisciplinarietà per cui partendo dalla dalla metodologia alla teoria dell' alla scienza politica, all'economia fino all'innovazione strategica e l'altra questione è il fatto che facendo questo mestiere per le grandi corporation che lavorano in molti settori hai la grande fortuna di vedere tanti settori hai certamente l'obbligo di portare le tue competenze ma spero che I miei clienti non mi sentano impari molto di più di quanto in realtà si pensi perché guardando molti settori riesce a capire bene come funziona la dinamica economica. Questo questa esperienza va portato nel 2016 a pensare di creare il centro economia digitale e devo ringraziare perché poi sai le idee contano fino a un certo punto cioè uno vuole arrivare su Marta ma servono gli strumenti devo ringraziare I presidi delle facoltà di economia di della sapienza di Tor Vergata Roma 3 e della Lewis Business School che hanno subito aderito a questo progetto e quindi siamo partiti con molta energia e I primi associati sono stati Leonardo Enel Eni e oggi le realtà del centro economia digitale di cui faccio il presidente per anche per spirito di servizio proposto all'inizio è una realtà molto importante perché si occupa sostanzialmente di ideare strategie di medio lungo periodo e proporre policy alle istituzioni. Perfetto, perché il nome del podcast è Tecnopolicy e di questo vogliamo parlare. In particolare volevo parlare con te di una policy, di un obiettivo, di un concetto che si è molto diffuso in questi anni, soprattutto in questi anni in cui con la pandemia ci sono stati una serie di problemi nella supply chain globale, nella globalizzazione, nel concetto stesso della dell'economia moderna, cioè di un'economia che è interconnessa, di un'economia che viaggia su lunghe catene globali ed è il concetto della sovranità digitale e la capacità di singoli soggetti che ovviamente stiamo parlando di grandi soggetti come gli Stati Uniti, l'Europa o la Cina di raggiungere una certa una certa soglia di autonomia, di indipendenza nel settore tecnologico, nel settore innovativo. Cosa è cambiato in questi anni in questo settore? La sovranità digitale per l'Europa è un obiettivo raggiungibile e come va declinata questa sovranità digitale? Beh diciamo che la sovranità digitale o comunque la sovranità tecnologica e comunque l'autonomia strategica perché poi sono tutti passaggi che portano all'autonomia strategica della dell'Unione Europea è diventato uno dei principali fattori il centro economia digitale lo lo iniziò a proporre nel 2020 per esempio no? Se ne parlava assolutamente in modo così strutturato perché è importante perché di fatto l'aspetto di capacità regolatoria dell'Unione Europea quella su cui noi tutti stiamo puntando cioè l'Europa è famosa per essere per il GDPR no è un è stato il GDPR è stato un successo straordinario per l'Europa perché mhmm sia gli Stati Uniti che la Cina hanno in un qualche modo assunto quel meccanismo con un punto di riferimento per quanto riguardava I dati e la privacy. Il problema qual è? Il problema è che l'Europa è schiacciata tra 2 giganti 2 giganti veri uno è gli Stati Uniti che sono sostanzialmente gli inventori del dell'economia digitale e l'altra è la Cina che si è data una una prospettiva molto sfidante di essere entro il 2025 del 2030 la leader mondiale in questo campo. Noi abbiamo dormito cioè noi ci siamo persi la prima ondata della ICT e adesso rischiamo di perderci anche la seconda. La seconda è molto importante perché? Perché la seconda che 'sta arrivando è una una un'immensa quantità di dati che verranno prodotte dalle industrie e da tutti I sistemi IoT ovvero internet of things su cui in realtà noi avremmo molto da dire specialmente come Italia perché siamo comunque alla seconda manifattura europea Ma restiamo ancora molto indietro da un punto di vista di produzione tecnologica e di creazione di campioni A me piace fare questo esempio per capirci immaginiamo di scendere in campo a vedere una partita no? E immaginiamo che le 2 squadre siano Cina e Stati Uniti allora è è bello pensare che l'arbitro sia europeo però io ancora non sono entrato in uno stadio dove ho visto qualcuno alzarsi in piedi per come dire per esaltarsi per l'arbitro. Non ho visto ancora nessuno che si compra la maglietta dell'arbitro e non ho visto una partita in cui alla fine abbia vinto l'arbitro. Allora il problema è questo. Cioè noi siamo esaltati da questa da questa capacità regolatoria. Vedo come grandi pensatori che come dire dicono che questa è la panacea cioè che noi regolando I sistemi di fatto non abbiamo bisogno di altro. In realtà abbiamo bisogno della produzione abbiamo bisogno dell'innovazione tecnologica di campioni italiani e europei. E se non capiamo questo, rischiamo di continuare a vedere I tifosi e giocare per le altre squadre. Infatti, il grosso problema fondamentalmente è capire quale principio adottare perché l'Europa negli ultimi anni in alcuni casi anche bloccato la nascita dei campioni europei perché la regolamentazione europea si basava su un mercato europeo quindi è chiaro che se in Europa ci sono uno o 2 grandi player in un particolare settore quel settore a livello europeo rischia di essere poco competitivo ma in realtà il settore molti di questi settori sono globali come sono globali quelli dei semiconduttori quelli delle grandi piattaforme tecnologiche e sono anche realtà contendibili perché abbiamo visto recentemente il caso di TikTok che in 2 anni praticamente si è presa il mercato di aziende che sono che erano considerate indistruttibili inscalfibili e quindi questo fatto da una parte è positivo perché fa capire che poi in fondo anche un mercato così forte può essere contendibile perché ci sono delle se se uno una buona idea la facilità di diffusione di quell'idea può aiutare un mercato dall'altra è anche preoccupante nel caso in particolare di TikTok perché ovviamente non sappiamo quasi niente di quello che c'è diciamo nel backend di TikTok. Però il discorso a questo punto è come facciamo a questo punto in Europa a costruire dei campioni? Come facciamo a puntare sull'innovazione e essere pronti per questa seconda ondata e non rimanere indietro in questa corsa globale? Allora noi abbiamo un paradosso: veniamo dal western. Noi abbiamo pensato per I primi anni che l'economia digitale non andasse regolata. L'idea era facciamola sviluppare, poi dopo la regoliamo. Poi succede sempre allo stesso modo cioè nel momento in cui una cosa si è sviluppata la capacità di lobbing di questo enorme gigante diventa complesso da da regolare. Ci siamo molto concentrati sulla regolamentazione io ripeto l'Europa è questo campione di regolamentazione questo nano di produzione economico che è un paradosso straordinario perché noi avremmo tutte le capacità per essere molto più della Cina Qual è il punto debole dell'Europa? Il punto d'Europa dal mio punto di vista è uno solo cioè nel senso il primo punto su cui lavorare il termine è frammentazione noi abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sulla sulla parte della dimensione delle imprese in Italia come dire possiamo fare scuola su questo e abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sui campioni nazionali piuttosto che europei quindi il percorso che noi dovremmo fare mhmm io ho parlato mhmm per capirci per per prendere un qualcosa noi possiamo utilizzare un modello che chiamo del rastrello cioè se tu hai un solo dente e tiri non non riuscirai a portarti dietro niente. Il nostro unico dente in questo momento è il regolamento. Dobbiamo aggiungere una serie di altri denti e questi denti sono tutti legati alle politiche industriali e dobbiamo puntare politiche industriali all'interno dell'Europa dobbiamo puntare su politiche industriali che facciano massa critica, abbattano I costi e dobbiamo puntare su politiche di ricerca e sviluppo che siano concentrate e che diano accesso anche alle piccole e medie imprese. È un sogno? No perché ce li abbiamo già questi campioni tra virgolette in Europa. Faccio 2 esempi molto concreti. Uno è il CERN e l'altro è Airbus che sono nati con queste logiche e che sono delle realtà internazionali molto importanti. Dobbiamo iniziare a usare gli altri denti del rastrello altrimenti continuiamo a fischiare I falli. In effetti un esempio di quest'anno probabilmente è la questione della regolamentazione delle auto elettriche e dei motori a scoppio. Il futuro e l'obiettivo dell'elettrificazione non è in discussione. Il problema è che al momento le tecnologie per le batterie, per le auto elettriche e anche per I semiconduttori che comunque dovranno essere alla base di queste auto che saranno sempre più appunto un grande software più che un hardware. Noi pensiamo prima alla regolamentazione e poi alla politica industriale cioè probabilmente a noi ci servono adesso le batterie a stato solido o comunque una nuova tecnologia per immaginare un futuro di un'auto elettrica che è meno dipendente dalle dai materiali critici, dalle terre rare e allora forse potrebbe essere così forse ottimista pensare va bene se c'è una regolamentazione uno mette diciamo il sale sulla coda all'industria europea che spingerà di più per per costruire una un'innovazione verso l'obiettivo della ghigliottina oppure succederà come poi è successo in alcuni casi e questo inizia a diventare un problema nella regolamentazione europea che la regolamentazione europea si fa e poi si rimanda o comunque si si proroga l'entrata in vigore perché era troppo ottimista o troppo anti mercato troppo o danneggiava troppo un singolo paese rispetto a un altro l'abbiamo visto non lo so con la sugar tax o la stic tax cioè che poi per non parlare della Bolkestein ovviamente però insomma quando si si arriva oggi già insomma in nel 2022 la Germania detto forse il 2035 è troppo presto l'Italia ovviamente una sua industria automobilistica e soprattutto un'industria della componentistica che avrebbe dei grossi problemi A livello regolatorio, perché a noi ci interessa anche molto capire qual è un modo migliore di fare regolamentazione, cioè un modo più che è difficile mettere d'accordo 27 paesi, è difficile mettere d'accordo Consiglio, Commissione e Parlamento. È ovviamente un processo legislativo complicatissimo però dobbiamo cercare per il futuro quando si parlerà di intelligenza artificiale, quando si parlerà di cloud, cioè di regolamentare in un modo che sia forse più aderente all'attualità, all'oggi e alle necessità dei paesi europei. Qui ci sono, secondo me, 2 temi fondamentali. Il primo è che questa concezione della sovranità non è stata ben digerita da tutto il sistema. Cioè con l'idea di essere un mercato molto grande c'è anche il pensiero che la nostra forza stia nel fatto di essere un grande mercato Ma il fatto di essere un grande mercato non è necessariamente un punto di forza strutturale è uno dei punti di forza e quindi questo tema della sovranità tecnologica che oggi è diventato prepotente nel dibattito non lo è mai stato in realtà non lo è mai stato Cioè lo è diventato a fronte di schiaffi ricevuti da fuori l'altro tema importante è quello che diceva Pascal l'errore arriva sempre dall'esclusione quando noi facciamo dei processi decisionali in cui in un qualche modo escludiamo per incapacità per prevenzione per qualsiasi altra cosa l'ascolto delle forze economiche reali è evidente che stiamo facendo un errore allora noi mh abbiamo nei confronti delle lobby una come dire una certa attenzione a livello europeo e forse bisognerebbe uno regolarle bene ma in un qualche modo ascoltarla. Cioè le lobby sane tra virgolette portano delle tematiche reali voglio dire la Germania che dice forse stiamo correndo troppo lo dice perché gran parte dell'economia europea che è tedesca è su quel modello di settore e su quel modello di settore noi siamo I primi fornitori come italiani. Quindi non è solo la Germania. Cioè attenzione a correre rispetto a determinati scenari che possono essere per carità di Dio interessanti e tutto il resto ma ricordiamoci queste 2 cose sovranità e l'errore di Pascal chiarissimo una domanda su un tema che è attinente a questo discorso della sovranità e a questo discorso di un modello europeo che possa essere un'alternativa rispetto ad altre realtà globali. Gaia X è il Cloud, il tentativo di immaginare un sistema di cloud europeo. C'è stato un lancio forte quando è stato presentato, anche perché sicuramente nella fase pandemica c'era sicuramente una grande attenzione all'idea di farsi un proprio modello, di farsi una propria soluzione per un problema che esiste perché sicuramente il cloud e come dovrà essere regolamentato e come dovrà essere gestito è un tema attuale ancora aperto. Ci sono dei bandi in tutta Europa che sono ancora aperti per gestire I dati della pubblica amministrazione, I dati dei cittadini, I dati delle agenzie di sicurezza, quindi siamo ancora in una fase di capire come sarà il cloud europeo. E che cosa ci puoi dire della situazione attuale di Gaia X o in generale di quali modelli sono ottimali per un sistema come l'Europa e l'Italia?Gaia X è la prova di un tentativo ragionevole, razionale e utile, ovvero quello di fare di delle nostre differenze una punto di forza di fatto ci sono 350 aziende più di 350 aziende che hanno aderito a questo progetto che è un progetto sostanzialmente di realizzazione di processi di architettura, di cloud edge computing su base nazionale ma che però condividono I sistemi di governance, le best practices e tutti I modelli per far sì che ci sia una come dire un modello di cloud che è quello che utilizziamo oggi ed edge computing che è quello che servirà maggiormente sull'IoT, sull'internet of Things che adotti I valori europei. Allora, da questo punto di vista quella è una grande opportunità tenendo conto che in Italia ci sono più di 60 aziende che hanno aderito e sono tutte le più grandi tenendo conto che noi siamo il terzo la terza nazione dopo Germania e Francia che l'hanno promosso e l'hanno lanciato e tenendo conto che nelle prospettive di futuro si dice sempre che I dati sono la benzina, ora la benzina non si può più dire, comunque sono il motore del futuro quei dati diventano fondamentali perché alla base della sovranità dell'Europa c'è la gestione del dato e la gestione del dato vuol dire che il cittadino deve poter controllare pienamente il dato deve poter decidere chi vi accede deve poterlo trasferire senza problemi e deve poter auspicabilmente far creare delle entità europee che lo valorizzino da questo punto di vista. Questa è una logica che Gaia X preso tra l'altro aprendosi al mondo quindi in un qualche modo aprendo anche la logica e facendo entrare le big tech americane è stata aperta anche un un hub nazionale in Corea del Sud rispetto a Gaia X. Noi abbiamo aperto nel dicembre del 2021 il primo hub e l'hub nazionale italiano con con sostanzialmente una una spinta a collaborare per tutti gli stakeholders, competenze center, distretti industriali e cercare di ricreare delle innovazioni. Allora la questione è che Gaia X è uno dei mattoni della nostra capacità di fare una data economy europea e quindi da questo punto di vista andrebbe da un punto di vista delle istituzioni ma anche dei principali attori di mercato andrebbe promosso e gestito in maniera assolutamente veloce. Io vedo solo 2 limiti. Il primo è il coordinamento che è oggettivamente complesso perché siamo tanti e e il secondo sono I tempi. Su queste cose come dire il digitale record europeo non è proprio viaggia su livelli espon su passettini e quindi bisogna veramente correre. Grazie. Bene l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è un consiglio. Gli chiediamo di darci un consiglio su un autore, un profilo Twitter, un libro, una pubblicazione, qualcosa da leggere, da seguire per capire meglio il tema e l'ambito di cui si occupano? Rispetto alle tematiche di cui abbiamo parlato oggi mi sento di suggerire 2 soggetti italiani, uno sul lato economico, faccio autopromozione in questo caso cioè il centro economia digitale è sicuramente il soggetto che sul lato economico anche per la in ragione dei soci Eni, Enel, Leonardo, Tim, Open Fiber, insomma più centrato l'attenzione sulla sovranità tecnologica e abbiamo scritto un libro lo scorso anno e seguiamo ancora la tematica l'altro sul sulla dinamica politica invece è l'ISPI del collega presidente massolo che lo affronta dal punto di vista invece geopolitico sul piano europeo essendo la sovranità tecnologica un qualcosa in divenire il mio consiglio è di seguire le attività del commissario terripreton che si occupa dei mercati interni e dei servizi perché è quello il punto di caduta. E quindi se qualcuno se vuole in qualche modo seguire la tematica queste sono le aree. Da un punto di vista poi dei media non è captato io bene violenza, lo faccio perché ne sono assolutamente convinto seguire formiche sia da un punto di vista della produzione internet e sia da un punto di vista della produzione cartacea è un'ottima idea perché lì dentro ci sono molte delle tematiche della sovranità tecnologica e digitale a partire da quello che ovviamente scriviamo anche noi ma è una visione molto complessa in Italia rarissima. Grazie. Doppiamente grazie e ringraziamo Rosario Cerra per aver partecipato a Tecnopolicy. Grazie a voi, grazie a voi dell'invito. 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"Plus.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6917985 } ], "summaries": null, "paragraphs": { "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Qual è oggi la sfida globale più grande? Il digitale, senza dubbio. L'innovazione tecnologica stravolto I canoni della competizione internazionale e anche I confini fra I poteri degli stati delle corporation, con un dibattito tecnologico che incrocia lo sconto fra Stati Uniti e Cina per l'egemonia. In questo contesto l'Unione Europea si è avviata verso la ricerca di una terza via per costruire un proprio polo digi-tech. La pandemia riacceso I riflettori del dibattito sulla sovranità e sull'autonomia strategica ma in realtà Bruxelles aveva tentato di tracciare I confini del proprio spazio digitale ben prima del Covid e in perfetto stile europeo lo aveva fatto a colpi di regolazione e interventi normativi.\n\nQuando la Commissione Von der Leyen è entrata in carica nel 2019 il potenziamento delle capacità digitali in tutta l'Unione è stato sin da subito una priorità assoluta. Nella sua prima dichiarazione la presidente apertamente chiesto all'Europa di raggiungere la sovranità in alcune aree tecnologiche critiche. Dati e cloud computing sono ambiti emblematici di questa aspirazione. I primi passi nel settore risalgono al 2010 quando in paesi come Francia e Germania sono stati definiti diversi progetti di cloud europeo nel tentativo di fornire una soluzione alternativa ai servizi digitali delle società straniere che al momento presidiavano il mercato dell'Unione Europea. 9 anni dopo, nel 2019, nasce Gaia X, il primo concreto progetto di cloud paneuropeo ma anche uno dei tentativi più ambiziosi nel percorso di definizione di sovranità digitale europea.\n\nDi sovranità non si può dimenticare che il Vecchio Continente dipendenze strutturali, sia con gli Stati Uniti sia con la Cina, in una varietà di domini che spaziano dalle piattaforme alle infrastrutture di telecomunicazione. Autonomia strategica significa velleitariamente autarchia? La ricerca della sovranità, inaspendo le differenze normative fra gli stati, avrà implicazioni sulla futura competitività globale? Esiste forse un rischio di tripartizione del mondo con delle sfere di influenza corrispondenti a nuove forme di sovranità tra Stati Uniti, Cina e Unione Europea? Ne parliamo con Rosario Acerra, presidente del Centro Economia Digitale.\n\nBentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Rosario Cerra.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie, grazie per l'invito.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie per essere con noi. Dunque la prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché La ammolliamo all'ospite come domanda, come responsabilità. Chiediamo all'ospite di raccontarci chi è e come è arrivato oggi a fare quello che sta facendo.\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora domanda semplice ma lunga no vabbè faccio la faccio molto breve sostanzialmente io ho un percorso professionale imprenditoriale nella consulenza strategica alle organizzazioni complesse Le organizzazioni complesse sono le grandi corporation, sono le istituzioni e le associazioni. In quest'ambito mi occupo prevalentemente di innovazione innovazione in senso generale e soprattutto della sua implementazione. Devo dire che nel corso del tempo ci sono state 2 aspetti di questo percorso che per me sono stati rilevanti. Il primo è stato l'aspetto formativo nel senso che nei tempi in cui non era mainstream io ho puntato molto sulla sulla multidisciplinarietà per cui partendo dalla dalla metodologia alla teoria dell' alla scienza politica, all'economia fino all'innovazione strategica e l'altra questione è il fatto che facendo questo mestiere per le grandi corporation che lavorano in molti settori hai la grande fortuna di vedere tanti settori hai certamente l'obbligo di portare le tue competenze ma spero che I miei clienti non mi sentano impari molto di più di quanto in realtà si pensi perché guardando molti settori riesce a capire bene come funziona la dinamica economica. Questo questa esperienza va portato nel 2016 a pensare di creare il centro economia digitale e devo ringraziare perché poi sai le idee contano fino a un certo punto cioè uno vuole arrivare su Marta ma servono gli strumenti devo ringraziare I presidi delle facoltà di economia di della sapienza di Tor Vergata Roma 3 e della Lewis Business School che hanno subito aderito a questo progetto e quindi siamo partiti con molta energia e I primi associati sono stati Leonardo Enel Eni e oggi le realtà del centro economia digitale di cui faccio il presidente per anche per spirito di servizio proposto all'inizio è una realtà molto importante perché si occupa sostanzialmente di ideare strategie di medio lungo periodo e proporre policy alle istituzioni.\n\nSpeaker 0: Perfetto, perché il nome del podcast è Tecnopolicy e di questo vogliamo parlare. In particolare volevo parlare con te di una policy, di un obiettivo, di un concetto che si è molto diffuso in questi anni, soprattutto in questi anni in cui con la pandemia ci sono stati una serie di problemi nella supply chain globale, nella globalizzazione, nel concetto stesso della dell'economia moderna, cioè di un'economia che è interconnessa, di un'economia che viaggia su lunghe catene globali ed è il concetto della sovranità digitale e la capacità di singoli soggetti che ovviamente stiamo parlando di grandi soggetti come gli Stati Uniti, l'Europa o la Cina di raggiungere una certa una certa soglia di autonomia, di indipendenza nel settore tecnologico, nel settore innovativo. Cosa è cambiato in questi anni in questo settore? La sovranità digitale per l'Europa è un obiettivo raggiungibile e come va declinata questa sovranità digitale? Beh\n\nSpeaker 1: diciamo che la sovranità digitale o comunque la sovranità tecnologica e comunque l'autonomia strategica perché poi sono tutti passaggi che portano all'autonomia strategica della dell'Unione Europea è diventato uno dei principali fattori il centro economia digitale lo lo iniziò a proporre nel 2020 per esempio no? Se ne parlava assolutamente in modo così strutturato perché è importante perché di fatto l'aspetto di capacità regolatoria dell'Unione Europea quella su cui noi tutti stiamo puntando cioè l'Europa è famosa per essere per il GDPR no è un è stato il GDPR è stato un successo straordinario per l'Europa perché mhmm sia gli Stati Uniti che la Cina hanno in un qualche modo assunto quel meccanismo con un punto di riferimento per quanto riguardava I dati e la privacy. Il problema qual è? Il problema è che l'Europa è schiacciata tra 2 giganti 2 giganti veri uno è gli Stati Uniti che sono sostanzialmente gli inventori del dell'economia digitale e l'altra è la Cina che si è data una una prospettiva molto sfidante di essere entro il 2025 del 2030 la leader mondiale in questo campo. Noi abbiamo dormito cioè noi ci siamo persi la prima ondata della ICT e adesso rischiamo di perderci anche la seconda.\n\nLa seconda è molto importante perché? Perché la seconda che 'sta arrivando è una una un'immensa quantità di dati che verranno prodotte dalle industrie e da tutti I sistemi IoT ovvero internet of things su cui in realtà noi avremmo molto da dire specialmente come Italia perché siamo comunque alla seconda manifattura europea Ma restiamo ancora molto indietro da un punto di vista di produzione tecnologica e di creazione di campioni A me piace fare questo esempio per capirci immaginiamo di scendere in campo a vedere una partita no? E immaginiamo che le 2 squadre siano Cina e Stati Uniti allora è è bello pensare che l'arbitro sia europeo però io ancora non sono entrato in uno stadio dove ho visto qualcuno alzarsi in piedi per come dire per esaltarsi per l'arbitro. Non ho visto ancora nessuno che si compra la maglietta dell'arbitro e non ho visto una partita in cui alla fine abbia vinto l'arbitro. Allora il problema è questo.\n\nCioè noi siamo esaltati da questa da questa capacità regolatoria. Vedo come grandi pensatori che come dire dicono che questa è la panacea cioè che noi regolando I sistemi di fatto non abbiamo bisogno di altro. In realtà abbiamo bisogno della produzione abbiamo bisogno dell'innovazione tecnologica di campioni italiani e europei. E se non capiamo questo, rischiamo di continuare a vedere I tifosi e giocare per le altre squadre.\n\nSpeaker 0: Infatti, il grosso problema fondamentalmente è capire quale principio adottare perché l'Europa negli ultimi anni in alcuni casi anche bloccato la nascita dei campioni europei perché la regolamentazione europea si basava su un mercato europeo quindi è chiaro che se in Europa ci sono uno o 2 grandi player in un particolare settore quel settore a livello europeo rischia di essere poco competitivo ma in realtà il settore molti di questi settori sono globali come sono globali quelli dei semiconduttori quelli delle grandi piattaforme tecnologiche e sono anche realtà contendibili perché abbiamo visto recentemente il caso di TikTok che in 2 anni praticamente si è presa il mercato di aziende che sono che erano considerate indistruttibili inscalfibili e quindi questo fatto da una parte è positivo perché fa capire che poi in fondo anche un mercato così forte può essere contendibile perché ci sono delle se se uno una buona idea la facilità di diffusione di quell'idea può aiutare un mercato dall'altra è anche preoccupante nel caso in particolare di TikTok perché ovviamente non sappiamo quasi niente di quello che c'è diciamo nel backend di TikTok. Però il discorso a questo punto è come facciamo a questo punto in Europa a costruire dei campioni?\n\nCome facciamo a puntare sull'innovazione e essere pronti per questa seconda ondata e non rimanere indietro in questa corsa globale?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora noi abbiamo un paradosso: veniamo dal western. Noi abbiamo pensato per I primi anni che l'economia digitale non andasse regolata. L'idea era facciamola sviluppare, poi dopo la regoliamo. Poi succede sempre allo stesso modo cioè nel momento in cui una cosa si è sviluppata la capacità di lobbing di questo enorme gigante diventa complesso da da regolare. Ci siamo molto concentrati sulla regolamentazione io ripeto l'Europa è questo campione di regolamentazione questo nano di produzione economico che è un paradosso straordinario perché noi avremmo tutte le capacità per essere molto più della Cina Qual è il punto debole dell'Europa?\n\nIl punto d'Europa dal mio punto di vista è uno solo cioè nel senso il primo punto su cui lavorare il termine è frammentazione noi abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sulla sulla parte della dimensione delle imprese in Italia come dire possiamo fare scuola su questo e abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sui campioni nazionali piuttosto che europei quindi il percorso che noi dovremmo fare mhmm io ho parlato mhmm per capirci per per prendere un qualcosa noi possiamo utilizzare un modello che chiamo del rastrello cioè se tu hai un solo dente e tiri non non riuscirai a portarti dietro niente. Il nostro unico dente in questo momento è il regolamento. Dobbiamo aggiungere una serie di altri denti e questi denti sono tutti legati alle politiche industriali e dobbiamo puntare politiche industriali all'interno dell'Europa dobbiamo puntare su politiche industriali che facciano massa critica, abbattano I costi e dobbiamo puntare su politiche di ricerca e sviluppo che siano concentrate e che diano accesso anche alle piccole e medie imprese. È un sogno? No perché ce li abbiamo già questi campioni tra virgolette in Europa.\n\nFaccio 2 esempi molto concreti. Uno è il CERN e l'altro è Airbus che sono nati con queste logiche e che sono delle realtà internazionali molto importanti. Dobbiamo iniziare a usare gli altri denti del rastrello altrimenti continuiamo a fischiare I falli.\n\nSpeaker 0: In effetti un esempio di quest'anno probabilmente è la questione della regolamentazione delle auto elettriche e dei motori a scoppio. Il futuro e l'obiettivo dell'elettrificazione non è in discussione. Il problema è che al momento le tecnologie per le batterie, per le auto elettriche e anche per I semiconduttori che comunque dovranno essere alla base di queste auto che saranno sempre più appunto un grande software più che un hardware. Noi pensiamo prima alla regolamentazione e poi alla politica industriale cioè probabilmente a noi ci servono adesso le batterie a stato solido o comunque una nuova tecnologia per immaginare un futuro di un'auto elettrica che è meno dipendente dalle dai materiali critici, dalle terre rare e allora forse potrebbe essere così forse ottimista pensare va bene se c'è una regolamentazione uno mette diciamo il sale sulla coda all'industria europea che spingerà di più per per costruire una un'innovazione verso l'obiettivo della ghigliottina oppure succederà come poi è successo in alcuni casi e questo inizia a diventare un problema nella regolamentazione europea che la regolamentazione europea si fa e poi si rimanda o comunque si si proroga l'entrata in vigore perché era troppo ottimista o troppo anti mercato troppo o danneggiava troppo un singolo paese rispetto a un altro l'abbiamo visto non lo so con la sugar tax o la stic tax cioè che poi per non parlare della Bolkestein ovviamente però insomma quando si si arriva oggi già insomma in nel 2022 la Germania detto forse il 2035 è troppo presto l'Italia ovviamente una sua industria automobilistica e soprattutto un'industria della componentistica che avrebbe dei grossi problemi A livello regolatorio, perché a noi ci interessa anche molto capire qual è un modo migliore di fare regolamentazione, cioè un modo più che è difficile mettere d'accordo 27 paesi, è difficile mettere d'accordo Consiglio, Commissione e Parlamento.\n\nÈ ovviamente un processo legislativo complicatissimo però dobbiamo cercare per il futuro quando si parlerà di intelligenza artificiale, quando si parlerà di cloud, cioè di regolamentare in un modo che sia forse più aderente all'attualità, all'oggi e alle necessità dei paesi europei.\n\nSpeaker 1: Qui ci sono, secondo me, 2 temi fondamentali. Il primo è che questa concezione della sovranità non è stata ben digerita da tutto il sistema. Cioè con l'idea di essere un mercato molto grande c'è anche il pensiero che la nostra forza stia nel fatto di essere un grande mercato Ma il fatto di essere un grande mercato non è necessariamente un punto di forza strutturale è uno dei punti di forza e quindi questo tema della sovranità tecnologica che oggi è diventato prepotente nel dibattito non lo è mai stato in realtà non lo è mai stato Cioè lo è diventato a fronte di schiaffi ricevuti da fuori l'altro tema importante è quello che diceva Pascal l'errore arriva sempre dall'esclusione quando noi facciamo dei processi decisionali in cui in un qualche modo escludiamo per incapacità per prevenzione per qualsiasi altra cosa l'ascolto delle forze economiche reali è evidente che stiamo facendo un errore allora noi mh abbiamo nei confronti delle lobby una come dire una certa attenzione a livello europeo e forse bisognerebbe uno regolarle bene ma in un qualche modo ascoltarla. Cioè le lobby sane tra virgolette portano delle tematiche reali voglio dire la Germania che dice forse stiamo correndo troppo lo dice perché gran parte dell'economia europea che è tedesca è su quel modello di settore e su quel modello di settore noi siamo I primi fornitori come italiani.\n\nQuindi non è solo la Germania. Cioè attenzione a correre rispetto a determinati scenari che possono essere per carità di Dio interessanti e tutto il resto ma ricordiamoci queste 2 cose sovranità e l'errore di\n\nSpeaker 0: Pascal chiarissimo una domanda su un tema che è attinente a questo discorso della sovranità e a questo discorso di un modello europeo che possa essere un'alternativa rispetto ad altre realtà globali. Gaia X è il Cloud, il tentativo di immaginare un sistema di cloud europeo. C'è stato un lancio forte quando è stato presentato, anche perché sicuramente nella fase pandemica c'era sicuramente una grande attenzione all'idea di farsi un proprio modello, di farsi una propria soluzione per un problema che esiste perché sicuramente il cloud e come dovrà essere regolamentato e come dovrà essere gestito è un tema attuale ancora aperto. Ci sono dei bandi in tutta Europa che sono ancora aperti per gestire I dati della pubblica amministrazione, I dati dei cittadini, I dati delle agenzie di sicurezza, quindi siamo ancora in una fase di capire come sarà il cloud europeo. E che cosa ci puoi dire della situazione attuale di Gaia X o in generale di quali modelli sono ottimali per un sistema come l'Europa e l'Italia?Gaia\n\nSpeaker 1: X è la prova di un tentativo ragionevole, razionale e utile, ovvero quello di fare di delle nostre differenze una punto di forza di fatto ci sono 350 aziende più di 350 aziende che hanno aderito a questo progetto che è un progetto sostanzialmente di realizzazione di processi di architettura, di cloud edge computing su base nazionale ma che però condividono I sistemi di governance, le best practices e tutti I modelli per far sì che ci sia una come dire un modello di cloud che è quello che utilizziamo oggi ed edge computing che è quello che servirà maggiormente sull'IoT, sull'internet of Things che adotti I valori europei. Allora, da questo punto di vista quella è una grande opportunità tenendo conto che in Italia ci sono più di 60 aziende che hanno aderito e sono tutte le più grandi tenendo conto che noi siamo il terzo la terza nazione dopo Germania e Francia che l'hanno promosso e l'hanno lanciato e tenendo conto che nelle prospettive di futuro si dice sempre che I dati sono la benzina, ora la benzina non si può più dire, comunque sono il motore del futuro quei dati diventano fondamentali perché alla base della sovranità dell'Europa c'è la gestione del dato e la gestione del dato vuol dire che il cittadino deve poter controllare pienamente il dato deve poter decidere chi vi accede deve poterlo trasferire senza problemi e deve poter auspicabilmente far creare delle entità europee che lo valorizzino da questo punto di vista.\n\nQuesta è una logica che Gaia X preso tra l'altro aprendosi al mondo quindi in un qualche modo aprendo anche la logica e facendo entrare le big tech americane è stata aperta anche un un hub nazionale in Corea del Sud rispetto a Gaia X. Noi abbiamo aperto nel dicembre del 2021 il primo hub e l'hub nazionale italiano con con sostanzialmente una una spinta a collaborare per tutti gli stakeholders, competenze center, distretti industriali e cercare di ricreare delle innovazioni. Allora la questione è che Gaia X è uno dei mattoni della nostra capacità di fare una data economy europea e quindi da questo punto di vista andrebbe da un punto di vista delle istituzioni ma anche dei principali attori di mercato andrebbe promosso e gestito in maniera assolutamente veloce. Io vedo solo 2 limiti. Il primo è il coordinamento che è oggettivamente complesso perché siamo tanti e e il secondo sono I tempi.\n\nSu queste cose come dire il digitale record\n\nSpeaker 0: europeo non è proprio\n\nSpeaker 1: viaggia su livelli espon su passettini e quindi bisogna veramente correre.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie. Bene l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è un consiglio. Gli chiediamo di darci un consiglio su un autore, un profilo Twitter, un libro, una pubblicazione, qualcosa da leggere, da seguire per capire meglio il tema e l'ambito di cui si occupano?\n\nSpeaker 1: Rispetto alle tematiche di cui abbiamo parlato oggi mi sento di suggerire 2 soggetti italiani, uno sul lato economico, faccio autopromozione in questo caso cioè il centro economia digitale è sicuramente il soggetto che sul lato economico anche per la in ragione dei soci Eni, Enel, Leonardo, Tim, Open Fiber, insomma più centrato l'attenzione sulla sovranità tecnologica e abbiamo scritto un libro lo scorso anno e seguiamo ancora la tematica l'altro sul sulla dinamica politica invece è l'ISPI del collega presidente massolo che lo affronta dal punto di vista invece geopolitico sul piano europeo essendo la sovranità tecnologica un qualcosa in divenire il mio consiglio è di seguire le attività del commissario terripreton che si occupa dei mercati interni e dei servizi perché è quello il punto di caduta. E quindi se qualcuno se vuole in qualche modo seguire la tematica queste sono le aree. Da un punto di vista poi dei media non è captato io bene violenza, lo faccio perché ne sono assolutamente convinto seguire formiche sia da un punto di vista della produzione internet e sia da un punto di vista della produzione cartacea è un'ottima idea perché lì dentro ci sono molte delle tematiche della sovranità tecnologica e digitale a partire da quello che ovviamente scriviamo anche noi ma è una visione molto complessa in Italia rarissima.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie. Doppiamente grazie e ringraziamo Rosario Cerra per aver partecipato a Tecnopolicy.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie a voi, grazie a voi dell'invito.\n\nSpeaker 0: Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Qual è oggi la sfida globale più grande?", "start": 10.32, "end": 12.259999 }, { "text": "Il digitale, senza dubbio.", "start": 12.4, "end": 13.78 }, { "text": "L'innovazione tecnologica stravolto I canoni della competizione internazionale e anche I confini fra I poteri degli stati delle corporation, con un dibattito tecnologico che incrocia lo sconto fra Stati Uniti e Cina per l'egemonia.", "start": 13.925, "end": 24.985 }, { "text": "In questo contesto l'Unione Europea si è avviata verso la ricerca di una terza via per costruire un proprio polo digi-tech.", "start": 25.285, "end": 32.239998 }, { "text": "La pandemia riacceso I riflettori del dibattito sulla sovranità e sull'autonomia strategica ma in realtà Bruxelles aveva tentato di tracciare I confini del proprio spazio digitale ben prima del Covid e in perfetto stile europeo lo aveva fatto a colpi di regolazione e interventi normativi.", "start": 32.46, "end": 49.015 } ], "start": 10.32, "end": 49.015, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quando la Commissione Von der Leyen è entrata in carica nel 2019 il potenziamento delle capacità digitali in tutta l'Unione è stato sin da subito una priorità assoluta.", "start": 49.315002, "end": 59.04 }, { "text": "Nella sua prima dichiarazione la presidente apertamente chiesto all'Europa di raggiungere la sovranità in alcune aree tecnologiche critiche.", "start": 59.26, "end": 67.04 }, { "text": "Dati e cloud computing sono ambiti emblematici di questa aspirazione.", "start": 67.34, "end": 71.28 }, { "text": "I primi passi nel settore risalgono al 2010 quando in paesi come Francia e Germania sono stati definiti diversi progetti di cloud europeo nel tentativo di fornire una soluzione alternativa ai servizi digitali delle società straniere che al momento presidiavano il mercato dell'Unione Europea.", "start": 72.045, "end": 88.56 }, { "text": "9 anni dopo, nel 2019, nasce Gaia X, il primo concreto progetto di cloud paneuropeo ma anche uno dei tentativi più ambiziosi nel percorso di definizione di sovranità digitale europea.", "start": 89.02, "end": 95.92 } ], "start": 49.315002, "end": 95.92, "num_words": 130.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Di sovranità non si può dimenticare che il Vecchio Continente dipendenze strutturali, sia con gli Stati Uniti sia con la Cina, in una varietà di domini che spaziano dalle piattaforme alle infrastrutture di telecomunicazione.", "start": 97.515, "end": 114.26 }, { "text": "Autonomia strategica significa velleitariamente autarchia?", "start": 115.12, "end": 119.060005 }, { "text": "La ricerca della sovranità, inaspendo le differenze normative fra gli stati, avrà implicazioni sulla futura competitività globale?", "start": 119.68, "end": 126.5 }, { "text": "Esiste forse un rischio di tripartizione del mondo con delle sfere di influenza corrispondenti a nuove forme di sovranità tra Stati Uniti, Cina e Unione Europea?", "start": 126.805, "end": 136.265 }, { "text": "Ne parliamo con Rosario Acerra, presidente del Centro Economia Digitale.", "start": 136.565, "end": 140.185 } ], "start": 97.515, "end": 140.185, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bentornati a Tecnopolicy e benvenuto a Rosario Cerra.", "start": 144.34999, "end": 147.25 } ], "start": 144.34999, "end": 147.25, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie, grazie per l'invito.", "start": 147.79, "end": 148.84999 } ], "start": 147.79, "end": 148.84999, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie per essere con noi.", "start": 149.06999, "end": 150.45 }, { "text": "Dunque la prima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è una domanda facile per l'intervistatore perché La ammolliamo all'ospite come domanda, come responsabilità.", "start": 150.91, "end": 161.05501 }, { "text": "Chiediamo all'ospite di raccontarci chi è e come è arrivato oggi a fare quello che sta facendo.", "start": 161.05501, "end": 168.515 } ], "start": 149.06999, "end": 168.515, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Allora domanda semplice ma lunga no vabbè faccio la faccio molto breve sostanzialmente io ho un percorso professionale imprenditoriale nella consulenza strategica alle organizzazioni complesse Le organizzazioni complesse sono le grandi corporation, sono le istituzioni e le associazioni.", "start": 170.01001, "end": 189.465 }, { "text": "In quest'ambito mi occupo prevalentemente di innovazione innovazione in senso generale e soprattutto della sua implementazione.", "start": 189.525, "end": 200.51 }, { "text": "Devo dire che nel corso del tempo ci sono state 2 aspetti di questo percorso che per me sono stati rilevanti.", "start": 201.77, "end": 210.91 }, { "text": "Il primo è stato l'aspetto formativo nel senso che nei tempi in cui non era mainstream io ho puntato molto sulla sulla multidisciplinarietà per cui partendo dalla dalla metodologia alla teoria dell' alla scienza politica, all'economia fino all'innovazione strategica e l'altra questione è il fatto che facendo questo mestiere per le grandi corporation che lavorano in molti settori hai la grande fortuna di vedere tanti settori hai certamente l'obbligo di portare le tue competenze ma spero che I miei clienti non mi sentano impari molto di più di quanto in realtà si pensi perché guardando molti settori riesce a capire bene come funziona la dinamica economica.", "start": 211.13, "end": 260.04 }, { "text": "Questo questa esperienza va portato nel 2016 a pensare di creare il centro economia digitale e devo ringraziare perché poi sai le idee contano fino a un certo punto cioè uno vuole arrivare su Marta ma servono gli strumenti devo ringraziare I presidi delle facoltà di economia di della sapienza di Tor Vergata Roma 3 e della Lewis Business School che hanno subito aderito a questo progetto e quindi siamo partiti con molta energia e I primi associati sono stati Leonardo Enel Eni e oggi le realtà del centro economia digitale di cui faccio il presidente per anche per spirito di servizio proposto all'inizio è una realtà molto importante perché si occupa sostanzialmente di ideare strategie di medio lungo periodo e proporre policy alle istituzioni.", "start": 260.42, "end": 311.54 } ], "start": 170.01001, "end": 311.54, "num_words": 306.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perfetto, perché il nome del podcast è Tecnopolicy e di questo vogliamo parlare.", "start": 312.64, "end": 317.86002 }, { "text": "In particolare volevo parlare con te di una policy, di un obiettivo, di un concetto che si è molto diffuso in questi anni, soprattutto in questi anni in cui con la pandemia ci sono stati una serie di problemi nella supply chain globale, nella globalizzazione, nel concetto stesso della dell'economia moderna, cioè di un'economia che è interconnessa, di un'economia che viaggia su lunghe catene globali ed è il concetto della sovranità digitale e la capacità di singoli soggetti che ovviamente stiamo parlando di grandi soggetti come gli Stati Uniti, l'Europa o la Cina di raggiungere una certa una certa soglia di autonomia, di indipendenza nel settore tecnologico, nel settore innovativo.", "start": 318.0, "end": 374.89 }, { "text": "Cosa è cambiato in questi anni in questo settore?", "start": 374.89, "end": 377.45 }, { "text": "La sovranità digitale per l'Europa è un obiettivo raggiungibile e come va declinata questa sovranità digitale?", "start": 377.45, "end": 384.11002 }, { "text": "Beh", "start": 384.345, "end": 384.845 } ], "start": 312.64, "end": 384.845, "num_words": 149.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "diciamo che la sovranità digitale o comunque la sovranità tecnologica e comunque l'autonomia strategica perché poi sono tutti passaggi che portano all'autonomia strategica della dell'Unione Europea è diventato uno dei principali fattori il centro economia digitale lo lo iniziò a proporre nel 2020 per esempio no?", "start": 385.305, "end": 408.91998 }, { "text": "Se ne parlava assolutamente in modo così strutturato perché è importante perché di fatto l'aspetto di capacità regolatoria dell'Unione Europea quella su cui noi tutti stiamo puntando cioè l'Europa è famosa per essere per il GDPR no è un è stato il GDPR è stato un successo straordinario per l'Europa perché mhmm sia gli Stati Uniti che la Cina hanno in un qualche modo assunto quel meccanismo con un punto di riferimento per quanto riguardava I dati e la privacy.", "start": 408.91998, "end": 443.88498 }, { "text": "Il problema qual è?", "start": 444.26498, "end": 445.305 }, { "text": "Il problema è che l'Europa è schiacciata tra 2 giganti 2 giganti veri uno è gli Stati Uniti che sono sostanzialmente gli inventori del dell'economia digitale e l'altra è la Cina che si è data una una prospettiva molto sfidante di essere entro il 2025 del 2030 la leader mondiale in questo campo.", "start": 445.305, "end": 470.315 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo dormito cioè noi ci siamo persi la prima ondata della ICT e adesso rischiamo di perderci anche la seconda.", "start": 470.85498, "end": 481.56 } ], "start": 385.305, "end": 481.56, "num_words": 204.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "La seconda è molto importante perché?", "start": 481.94, "end": 484.28 }, { "text": "Perché la seconda che 'sta arrivando è una una un'immensa quantità di dati che verranno prodotte dalle industrie e da tutti I sistemi IoT ovvero internet of things su cui in realtà noi avremmo molto da dire specialmente come Italia perché siamo comunque alla seconda manifattura europea Ma restiamo ancora molto indietro da un punto di vista di produzione tecnologica e di creazione di campioni A me piace fare questo esempio per capirci immaginiamo di scendere in campo a vedere una partita no?", "start": 484.66, "end": 519.85504 }, { "text": "E immaginiamo che le 2 squadre siano Cina e Stati Uniti allora è è bello pensare che l'arbitro sia europeo però io ancora non sono entrato in uno stadio dove ho visto qualcuno alzarsi in piedi per come dire per esaltarsi per l'arbitro.", "start": 519.85504, "end": 535.42004 }, { "text": "Non ho visto ancora nessuno che si compra la maglietta dell'arbitro e non ho visto una partita in cui alla fine abbia vinto l'arbitro.", "start": 536.04004, "end": 543.42004 }, { "text": "Allora il problema è questo.", "start": 543.72003, "end": 544.84 } ], "start": 481.94, "end": 544.84, "num_words": 161.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Cioè noi siamo esaltati da questa da questa capacità regolatoria.", "start": 544.84, "end": 549.105 }, { "text": "Vedo come grandi pensatori che come dire dicono che questa è la panacea cioè che noi regolando I sistemi di fatto non abbiamo bisogno di altro.", "start": 549.325, "end": 559.085 }, { "text": "In realtà abbiamo bisogno della produzione abbiamo bisogno dell'innovazione tecnologica di campioni italiani e europei.", "start": 559.085, "end": 565.21 }, { "text": "E se non capiamo questo, rischiamo di continuare a vedere I tifosi e giocare per le altre squadre.", "start": 565.35004, "end": 572.33 } ], "start": 544.84, "end": 572.33, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Infatti, il grosso problema fondamentalmente è capire quale principio adottare perché l'Europa negli ultimi anni in alcuni casi anche bloccato la nascita dei campioni europei perché la regolamentazione europea si basava su un mercato europeo quindi è chiaro che se in Europa ci sono uno o 2 grandi player in un particolare settore quel settore a livello europeo rischia di essere poco competitivo ma in realtà il settore molti di questi settori sono globali come sono globali quelli dei semiconduttori quelli delle grandi piattaforme tecnologiche e sono anche realtà contendibili perché abbiamo visto recentemente il caso di TikTok che in 2 anni praticamente si è presa il mercato di aziende che sono che erano considerate indistruttibili inscalfibili e quindi questo fatto da una parte è positivo perché fa capire che poi in fondo anche un mercato così forte può essere contendibile perché ci sono delle se se uno una buona idea la facilità di diffusione di quell'idea può aiutare un mercato dall'altra è anche preoccupante nel caso in particolare di TikTok perché ovviamente non sappiamo quasi niente di quello che c'è diciamo nel backend di TikTok.", "start": 573.27, "end": 649.5 }, { "text": "Però il discorso a questo punto è come facciamo a questo punto in Europa a costruire dei campioni?", "start": 650.12, "end": 659.145 } ], "start": 573.27, "end": 659.145, "num_words": 204.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Come facciamo a puntare sull'innovazione e essere pronti per questa seconda ondata e non rimanere indietro in questa corsa globale?", "start": 659.145, "end": 670.525 } ], "start": 659.145, "end": 670.525, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Allora noi abbiamo un paradosso: veniamo dal western.", "start": 671.8, "end": 674.62 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo pensato per I primi anni che l'economia digitale non andasse regolata.", "start": 675.39996, "end": 679.82 }, { "text": "L'idea era facciamola sviluppare, poi dopo la regoliamo.", "start": 680.2, "end": 683.58 }, { "text": "Poi succede sempre allo stesso modo cioè nel momento in cui una cosa si è sviluppata la capacità di lobbing di questo enorme gigante diventa complesso da da regolare.", "start": 684.705, "end": 696.645 }, { "text": "Ci siamo molto concentrati sulla regolamentazione io ripeto l'Europa è questo campione di regolamentazione questo nano di produzione economico che è un paradosso straordinario perché noi avremmo tutte le capacità per essere molto più della Cina Qual è il punto debole dell'Europa?", "start": 697.85, "end": 714.575 } ], "start": 671.8, "end": 714.575, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Il punto d'Europa dal mio punto di vista è uno solo cioè nel senso il primo punto su cui lavorare il termine è frammentazione noi abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sulla sulla parte della dimensione delle imprese in Italia come dire possiamo fare scuola su questo e abbiamo un problema di frammentazione sui campioni nazionali piuttosto che europei quindi il percorso che noi dovremmo fare mhmm io ho parlato mhmm per capirci per per prendere un qualcosa noi possiamo utilizzare un modello che chiamo del rastrello cioè se tu hai un solo dente e tiri non non riuscirai a portarti dietro niente.", "start": 715.115, "end": 756.31 }, { "text": "Il nostro unico dente in questo momento è il regolamento.", "start": 756.31, "end": 759.53 }, { "text": "Dobbiamo aggiungere una serie di altri denti e questi denti sono tutti legati alle politiche industriali e dobbiamo puntare politiche industriali all'interno dell'Europa dobbiamo puntare su politiche industriali che facciano massa critica, abbattano I costi e dobbiamo puntare su politiche di ricerca e sviluppo che siano concentrate e che diano accesso anche alle piccole e medie imprese.", "start": 759.99005, "end": 785.31 }, { "text": "È un sogno?", "start": 786.32996, "end": 787.05 }, { "text": "No perché ce li abbiamo già questi campioni tra virgolette in Europa.", "start": 787.05, "end": 790.99 } ], "start": 715.115, "end": 790.99, "num_words": 184.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Faccio 2 esempi molto concreti.", "start": 791.20996, "end": 792.88995 }, { "text": "Uno è il CERN e l'altro è Airbus che sono nati con queste logiche e che sono delle realtà internazionali molto importanti.", "start": 792.88995, "end": 801.185 }, { "text": "Dobbiamo iniziare a usare gli altri denti del rastrello altrimenti continuiamo a fischiare I falli.", "start": 801.565, "end": 809.585 } ], "start": 791.20996, "end": 809.585, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In effetti un esempio di quest'anno probabilmente è la questione della regolamentazione delle auto elettriche e dei motori a scoppio.", "start": 810.36, "end": 817.66003 }, { "text": "Il futuro e l'obiettivo dell'elettrificazione non è in discussione.", "start": 819.24, "end": 824.04 }, { "text": "Il problema è che al momento le tecnologie per le batterie, per le auto elettriche e anche per I semiconduttori che comunque dovranno essere alla base di queste auto che saranno sempre più appunto un grande software più che un hardware.", "start": 824.04, "end": 843.66003 }, { "text": "Noi pensiamo prima alla regolamentazione e poi alla politica industriale cioè probabilmente a noi ci servono adesso le batterie a stato solido o comunque una nuova tecnologia per immaginare un futuro di un'auto elettrica che è meno dipendente dalle dai materiali critici, dalle terre rare e allora forse potrebbe essere così forse ottimista pensare va bene se c'è una regolamentazione uno mette diciamo il sale sulla coda all'industria europea che spingerà di più per per costruire una un'innovazione verso l'obiettivo della ghigliottina oppure succederà come poi è successo in alcuni casi e questo inizia a diventare un problema nella regolamentazione europea che la regolamentazione europea si fa e poi si rimanda o comunque si si proroga l'entrata in vigore perché era troppo ottimista o troppo anti mercato troppo o danneggiava troppo un singolo paese rispetto a un altro l'abbiamo visto non lo so con la sugar tax o la stic tax cioè che poi per non parlare della Bolkestein ovviamente però insomma quando si si arriva oggi già insomma in nel 2022 la Germania detto forse il 2035 è troppo presto l'Italia ovviamente una sua industria automobilistica e soprattutto un'industria della componentistica che avrebbe dei grossi problemi A livello regolatorio, perché a noi ci interessa anche molto capire qual è un modo migliore di fare regolamentazione, cioè un modo più che è difficile mettere d'accordo 27 paesi, è difficile mettere d'accordo Consiglio, Commissione e Parlamento.", "start": 843.94006, "end": 942.52496 } ], "start": 810.36, "end": 942.52496, "num_words": 305.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "È ovviamente un processo legislativo complicatissimo però dobbiamo cercare per il futuro quando si parlerà di intelligenza artificiale, quando si parlerà di cloud, cioè di regolamentare in un modo che sia forse più aderente all'attualità, all'oggi e alle necessità dei paesi europei.", "start": 943.14496, "end": 962.13 } ], "start": 943.14496, "end": 962.13, "num_words": 42.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Qui ci sono, secondo me, 2 temi fondamentali.", "start": 962.51, "end": 965.81 }, { "text": "Il primo è che questa concezione della sovranità non è stata ben digerita da tutto il sistema.", "start": 967.045, "end": 975.38495 }, { "text": "Cioè con l'idea di essere un mercato molto grande c'è anche il pensiero che la nostra forza stia nel fatto di essere un grande mercato Ma il fatto di essere un grande mercato non è necessariamente un punto di forza strutturale è uno dei punti di forza e quindi questo tema della sovranità tecnologica che oggi è diventato prepotente nel dibattito non lo è mai stato in realtà non lo è mai stato Cioè lo è diventato a fronte di schiaffi ricevuti da fuori l'altro tema importante è quello che diceva Pascal l'errore arriva sempre dall'esclusione quando noi facciamo dei processi decisionali in cui in un qualche modo escludiamo per incapacità per prevenzione per qualsiasi altra cosa l'ascolto delle forze economiche reali è evidente che stiamo facendo un errore allora noi mh abbiamo nei confronti delle lobby una come dire una certa attenzione a livello europeo e forse bisognerebbe uno regolarle bene ma in un qualche modo ascoltarla.", "start": 976.245, "end": 1064.375 }, { "text": "Cioè le lobby sane tra virgolette portano delle tematiche reali voglio dire la Germania che dice forse stiamo correndo troppo lo dice perché gran parte dell'economia europea che è tedesca è su quel modello di settore e su quel modello di settore noi siamo I primi fornitori come italiani.", "start": 1064.435, "end": 1088.935 } ], "start": 962.51, "end": 1088.935, "num_words": 232.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi non è solo la Germania.", "start": 1089.3151, "end": 1090.915 }, { "text": "Cioè attenzione a correre rispetto a determinati scenari che possono essere per carità di Dio interessanti e tutto il resto ma ricordiamoci queste 2 cose sovranità e l'errore di", "start": 1090.915, "end": 1104.2 } ], "start": 1089.3151, "end": 1104.2, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Pascal chiarissimo una domanda su un tema che è attinente a questo discorso della sovranità e a questo discorso di un modello europeo che possa essere un'alternativa rispetto ad altre realtà globali.", "start": 1104.32, "end": 1120.895 }, { "text": "Gaia X è il Cloud, il tentativo di immaginare un sistema di cloud europeo.", "start": 1120.955, "end": 1127.0299 }, { "text": "C'è stato un lancio forte quando è stato presentato, anche perché sicuramente nella fase pandemica c'era sicuramente una grande attenzione all'idea di farsi un proprio modello, di farsi una propria soluzione per un problema che esiste perché sicuramente il cloud e come dovrà essere regolamentato e come dovrà essere gestito è un tema attuale ancora aperto.", "start": 1127.09, "end": 1156.29 }, { "text": "Ci sono dei bandi in tutta Europa che sono ancora aperti per gestire I dati della pubblica amministrazione, I dati dei cittadini, I dati delle agenzie di sicurezza, quindi siamo ancora in una fase di capire come sarà il cloud europeo.", "start": 1156.29, "end": 1172.2849 }, { "text": "E che cosa ci puoi dire della situazione attuale di Gaia X o in generale di quali modelli sono ottimali per un sistema come l'Europa e l'Italia?Gaia", "start": 1172.2849, "end": 1186.3601 } ], "start": 1104.32, "end": 1186.3601, "num_words": 170.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "X è la prova di un tentativo ragionevole, razionale e utile, ovvero quello di fare di delle nostre differenze una punto di forza di fatto ci sono 350 aziende più di 350 aziende che hanno aderito a questo progetto che è un progetto sostanzialmente di realizzazione di processi di architettura, di cloud edge computing su base nazionale ma che però condividono I sistemi di governance, le best practices e tutti I modelli per far sì che ci sia una come dire un modello di cloud che è quello che utilizziamo oggi ed edge computing che è quello che servirà maggiormente sull'IoT, sull'internet of Things che adotti I valori europei.", "start": 1187.7001, "end": 1240.98 }, { "text": "Allora, da questo punto di vista quella è una grande opportunità tenendo conto che in Italia ci sono più di 60 aziende che hanno aderito e sono tutte le più grandi tenendo conto che noi siamo il terzo la terza nazione dopo Germania e Francia che l'hanno promosso e l'hanno lanciato e tenendo conto che nelle prospettive di futuro si dice sempre che I dati sono la benzina, ora la benzina non si può più dire, comunque sono il motore del futuro quei dati diventano fondamentali perché alla base della sovranità dell'Europa c'è la gestione del dato e la gestione del dato vuol dire che il cittadino deve poter controllare pienamente il dato deve poter decidere chi vi accede deve poterlo trasferire senza problemi e deve poter auspicabilmente far creare delle entità europee che lo valorizzino da questo punto di vista.", "start": 1241.44, "end": 1299.74 } ], "start": 1187.7001, "end": 1299.74, "num_words": 250.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questa è una logica che Gaia X preso tra l'altro aprendosi al mondo quindi in un qualche modo aprendo anche la logica e facendo entrare le big tech americane è stata aperta anche un un hub nazionale in Corea del Sud rispetto a Gaia X.", "start": 1299.88, "end": 1320.49 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo aperto nel dicembre del 2021 il primo hub e l'hub nazionale italiano con con sostanzialmente una una spinta a collaborare per tutti gli stakeholders, competenze center, distretti industriali e cercare di ricreare delle innovazioni.", "start": 1320.87, "end": 1338.6649 }, { "text": "Allora la questione è che Gaia X è uno dei mattoni della nostra capacità di fare una data economy europea e quindi da questo punto di vista andrebbe da un punto di vista delle istituzioni ma anche dei principali attori di mercato andrebbe promosso e gestito in maniera assolutamente veloce.", "start": 1338.725, "end": 1361.3049 }, { "text": "Io vedo solo 2 limiti.", "start": 1361.3049, "end": 1362.9049 }, { "text": "Il primo è il coordinamento che è oggettivamente complesso perché siamo tanti e e il secondo sono I tempi.", "start": 1362.9049, "end": 1370.205 } ], "start": 1299.88, "end": 1370.205, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Su queste cose come dire il digitale record", "start": 1372.4249, "end": 1375.09 } ], "start": 1372.4249, "end": 1375.09, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "europeo non è proprio", "start": 1375.71, "end": 1377.01 } ], "start": 1375.71, "end": 1377.01, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "viaggia su livelli espon su passettini e quindi bisogna veramente correre.", "start": 1377.9501, "end": 1384.77 } ], "start": 1377.9501, "end": 1384.77, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie.", "start": 1385.31, "end": 1385.81 }, { "text": "Bene l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti è un consiglio.", "start": 1385.87, "end": 1391.635 }, { "text": "Gli chiediamo di darci un consiglio su un autore, un profilo Twitter, un libro, una pubblicazione, qualcosa da leggere, da seguire per capire meglio il tema e l'ambito di cui si occupano?", "start": 1391.635, "end": 1404.5 } ], "start": 1385.31, "end": 1404.5, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Rispetto alle tematiche di cui abbiamo parlato oggi mi sento di suggerire 2 soggetti italiani, uno sul lato economico, faccio autopromozione in questo caso cioè il centro economia digitale è sicuramente il soggetto che sul lato economico anche per la in ragione dei soci Eni, Enel, Leonardo, Tim, Open Fiber, insomma più centrato l'attenzione sulla sovranità tecnologica e abbiamo scritto un libro lo scorso anno e seguiamo ancora la tematica l'altro sul sulla dinamica politica invece è l'ISPI del collega presidente massolo che lo affronta dal punto di vista invece geopolitico sul piano europeo essendo la sovranità tecnologica un qualcosa in divenire il mio consiglio è di seguire le attività del commissario terripreton che si occupa dei mercati interni e dei servizi perché è quello il punto di caduta.", "start": 1404.7999, "end": 1470.65 }, { "text": "E quindi se qualcuno se vuole in qualche modo seguire la tematica queste sono le aree.", "start": 1470.995, "end": 1476.995 }, { "text": "Da un punto di vista poi dei media non è captato io bene violenza, lo faccio perché ne sono assolutamente convinto seguire formiche sia da un punto di vista della produzione internet e sia da un punto di vista della produzione cartacea è un'ottima idea perché lì dentro ci sono molte delle tematiche della sovranità tecnologica e digitale a partire da quello che ovviamente scriviamo anche noi ma è una visione molto complessa in Italia rarissima.", "start": 1476.995, "end": 1508.005 } ], "start": 1404.7999, "end": 1508.005, "num_words": 221.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie.", "start": 1508.7051, "end": 1509.185 }, { "text": "Doppiamente grazie e ringraziamo Rosario Cerra per aver partecipato a Tecnopolicy.", "start": 1509.185, "end": 1514.2451 } ], "start": 1508.7051, "end": 1514.2451, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie a voi, grazie a voi dell'invito.", "start": 1514.7051, "end": 1516.4851 } ], "start": 1514.7051, "end": 1516.4851, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "start": 1520.0299, "end": 1526.715 } ], "start": 1520.0299, "end": 1526.715, "num_words": 21.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 10.32, "end": 14.425, "confidence": 0.9714606, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Qual è oggi la sfida globale più grande? 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Allora il problema è questo. Cioè noi siamo esaltati da questa da questa capacità regolatoria. Vedo come", "words": [ { "word": "e", "start": 539.64, "end": 539.80005, "confidence": 0.9526367, "punctuated_word": "e", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "non", "start": 539.80005, "end": 539.96, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "non", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "ho", "start": 539.96, "end": 540.12, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "ho", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "visto", "start": 540.12, "end": 540.52, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "visto", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "una", "start": 540.52, "end": 541.02, "confidence": 0.9536133, "punctuated_word": "una", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "partita", "start": 541.24005, "end": 541.48004, "confidence": 0.9863281, "punctuated_word": "partita", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7003829 }, { "word": "in", "start": 541.48004, "end": 541.64, "confidence": 1.0, 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