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Wenn sowohl dein Smartphone als auch der Lautsprecher den Bluetooth Standard unterstützen, dann können Sie problemlos miteinander kommunizieren. Wenn nicht, dann ist die Party auch ganz schnell wieder vorbei. Auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung spielen datenbezogene Standards eine Rolle. Nehmen wir mal Bürger*innendaten, den Personalausweis, die Geburtsurkunde oder auch Steuerinformationen. Mit einem einheitlichen Datenformat für alle Behörden lassen sich Informationen nahtlos austauschen. Das erleichtert die Zusammenarbeit und verhindert Fehler, die unterschiedliche Formate verursachen könnten. Es gibt aber auch noch weitere Gründe, sich mit datenbezogenen Standards zu befassen und welche genau das sind, das erfahrt ihr heute in diesem Podcast. Herzlich willkommen zurück aus der Sommerpause hier beim öfit Podcast, restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts für offene Kommunikationssysteme. Mein Name ist Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts. Das ist zum einen Gabriele Goldacker. Sie ist als Informatikerin, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT und Co Autorin 1 Publikation zum Thema datenbezogene Standards. Moin Gabriele, schön, dass Du dir Hallo Philipp. Und ja, Stammgast wie immer eigentlich auch hier vor Ort bei uns im Studio in Berlin Tegel, Doktor Mike Weber. Er ist Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des öfid. Hallo Mike, schön, dass Du hergefunden hast durch den Verkehrsdschungel nach Tegel. Hallo Philipp, ja, trotz BVG hab ichs geschafft. Ja, böse Zungen behaupten vielleicht, der einzige datenbezogene Standard in der öffentlichen Verwaltung ist das Fax, aber ganz so ist es ja nicht. Auch digitale Standards sind bei Behörden wichtig. Ein Beispiel habe ich ja gerade schon genannt. Lasst uns aber gern noch mal auf andere Beispiele kommen. Welche Anwendungsfälle kommen euch noch in den Sinn für datenbezogene Standards in der öffentlichen Verwaltung, Abrede? Es gibt unendlich viele Anwendungsfälle, weil ganz viel, was die öffentliche Verwaltung tut, ist, mit Daten zu arbeiten. Und in dem Moment, wo irgendwo Daten zwischen verschiedenen Stellen hin- und herfließen müssen, hin- und hergeschoben werden müssen oder auch wo Daten in die Öffentlichkeit gebracht werden müssen, braucht man dafür irgendwelche Standards. Früher waren's eben halt Papierformate, wie irgendwelche Tabellen auf Papier dargestellt zu werden haben. Wir kennen's alle von unseren Steuerbescheiden. Auch dahinter steckt 'n Standard. Ja und wenn man's ganz einfach denkt, fängt ja wahrscheinlich schon bei 'ner Textverwaltung an, oder? Ich meine, wenn die eine Behörde Microsoft Word arbeitet und die andere beispielsweise mit Open Office, 2 verschiedene Dateiformate, dann wird's plötzlich schwierig, da verschiedene Dokumente zu öffnen, oder? Das ist ja ein geradezu legendäres Beispiel für die Schwierigkeiten von Standardisierung, in die von Textformaten. Ja, in der Tat. Also wenn man noch Open Office Formate findet irgendwo in der Verwaltung, dann hat man da zumindest bei Sonderfunktionen sehr gerne irgendwelche Übersetzungsprobleme, die dann zu Buchstabensalat führen können. Was hilft denn nun aber, sich da zu einigen auf Standards? Also jetzt bei mir im Team Podcaststudio, da ist das relativ einfach. Wir sind ja nun gerade mal 10 Leute und dazu sagen, ja, wir arbeiten alle mit Open Office, da kriegen wir uns schon geeinigt. Wenn aber Behörden in verschiedenen Kommunen, in verschiedenen Städten, so vor sich hin wurschteln, wie kommt man da zu gemeinsam Standards? Das Beschließen 1 einzelnen Standards für alle ist in der Tat, je größer das Kongruat wird, immer schwieriger. Die Krux ist es dann, sich auf die Mindestvoraussetzungen zu einigen, also zum Beispiel einheitliche Datenstandards, die dann auszutauschen, einheitliche Standards für die Übermittlung der Daten und dann möglicherweise in den einzelnen Anwendungen dann eventuell tatsächlich dann mit anderen Datenformaten zu arbeiten. Aber auf jeden Fall immer dann, wenn Daten übertragen werden, ist es essenziell. Gabriel, hast Du da Erfahrung, wie kann man Daten standardisieren, auch zwischen Kommunen? Wie es zwischen Kommunen funktionieren könnte, da hab ich schon Ideen, aber oft läuft's anders. Wäre also eigentlich wünschenswert, wenn die eine Kommune feststellt, ich brauch jetzt irgendwie 'n neues Format. Ich muss jetzt die Hunde in der Kommune erfassen, unabhängig von der Hundesteuer nach der Art des Hundes zum Beispiel und das hat ja schon eine andere Kommune gemacht, hinzugehen und zu sagen, wie macht 'n ihr das? Wie erfasst er das? Wie codiert er das? So funktioniert's leider oft nicht, sondern da geht dann jeder so los. In der Regel macht das ja auch nicht 'n Kommunalmitarbeiter, sondern da hat man 'n Dienstleister dafür, je kleiner die Kommune auch oft, je kleiner der Dienstleister und der macht dann. Und dann wird's eben eher kein Standard. Und wenn man dann feststellt, okay, wir wollen jetzt irgendwelche bundesweiten Register aufsetzen oder bundesweite Abfragen aufsetzen, dann stellt man fest, okay, es funktioniert nicht miteinander. Dann gibt es Gremien, die etabliert werden, zum Beispiel der IT Planungsrat, die dann versuchen, genau solche Probleme zu lösen, indem Arbeitsgruppen gebildet werden, die dann beauftragt werden, entsprechende Standards zu schaffen. Was nicht unbedingt heißt, dass der Standard dann auch in der Kommune oder im Land tatsächlich an allen Stellen eingesetzt wird, sondern man passt sich dann für die Datenübertragung, die Datenkommunikation, den Datenaustausch an, den gemeinsamen Standard an. Was hinten stattfindet im Speicher innerhalb der Kommune, ist davon im Prinzip unabhängig und bleibt auch oft so. Mhm. Ja, Hundesteuer ist vielleicht 'n gutes Beispiel, ne? Die eine Kommune fragt alle Handdaten ab, die andere nur 2 oder 3, da muss das aber irgendwie zusammengewurschtelt werden. Auf dem Komplexitätslevel kann ich mir noch vorstellen, dass man sich einigt, aber es gibt sicherlich noch Beispiele, wo es denn komplizierter wird. Wo gibt's denn den größten Verbesserungsbedarf beim Austausch von Daten? Jetzt ganz konkret, wenn wir uns mal angucken, die ganzen Probleme und die Daten, die wir von Kommunen erfasst werden. Den größten Verbesserungsbedarf gibt es bei dem, was uns jetzt bevorsteht. Dieses sogenannte Gateway Gateway, wo nicht nur für Firmen, wo wir das ja im Prinzip schon haben, sondern für jeden Bürger in der EU die Möglichkeit bestehen soll, Dienstleistungen auch Nationalitätsgrenzen überschreitend in Anspruch zu nehmen. Und wir haben zusätzlich den Anspruch, dass nicht mehr jeder Bürger, wenn er zum Amt geht oder eben auch digital zum Amt geht, erst mal seine Dokumente, die Geburtsurkunde, die Meldebescheinigung scannt und entsprechend bei der virtuellen oder auch physischen Behörde vorlegt, sondern dass wir das alles aus den Registern rausholen, wo die Daten ja vorhanden sind. Und jede Behörde, die sie dann auch braucht, auf aktuelle und korrekte Daten zugreifen kann. Und zwar eben auch nicht, indem erst mal 'n Antrag gestellt wird und die Daten muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen zum Amt? Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon. Muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen zum Amt? Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon. Und so könnte sich das dann noch austauschen lassen, wenn man umzieht zum Beispiel wahrscheinlich, ne? Genau, das das das sollte heute eigentlich schon überhaupt gar kein Problem mehr sein. Aber da sind wir leider an vielen Stellen noch nicht so weit. Wann könnte es so weit sein? Mit Zukunftsfragen kommen wir da zu mir. Du bist doch Zukunftsforscher, dachte ich. Ich. Ja, mir die Jahreszahlen sind wir immer sehr geizig. Na ja, wir haben ja so einige Entwicklungen, die genau darauf einzahlen sollen. Stichwort Registermodernisierung, wo halt genau diese Register so aufgestellt werden sollen, dass dieser Datenaustausch funktionieren kann. Stichwort on the only, dass tatsächlich auch aus den Registern die Daten gezogen werden können, wenn sie denn gebraucht werden. Das sind alles riesige Vorhaben, die sicherlich noch, na, soll ich mich jetzt zu 'ner Jahreszeit hinreißen lassen, sicherlich noch 15 Jahre dauern werden, bevor sie wirklich Früchte tragen. Und dann haben wir natürlich auch in jedem einzelnen Register und in jedem einzelnen Verfahren dann die Fragen, passen jetzt die Datenstandards alle zusammen? Also sprich, bis das dann alles ganz flüssig bis in den letzten Winkel funktioniert, kann das auch noch 'n bisschen länger dauern. Ja, also sieht man auch, also technisch ist das ja sicherlich kein Hexenwerk und kein Zauber, aber eben diese Standards zu finden, daran hakt's dann eben doch und das braucht eben ganz offensichtlich Zeit. Bleiben wir aber beim Thema, Austausch von Daten innerhalb der EU, auch zwischen verschiedenen nationalen Behörden. Ihr nennt selber ein Beispiel in eurer Publikation, nämlich x-Rechnung. Ich hab mich über das Beispiel gefreut, denn ich durfte auch schon Bekanntschaft mit x-Rechnung machen. Mal zur Erklärung, mit diesem Standard wird ja die Rechnungsstellung gegenüber Behörden EU weit standardisiert. Ja, es gibt dann im Prinzip auch, wird ganz genau gesagt, hier kommt die Rechnungsnummer hin, da kommt der Betrachten hin, da die Beschreibung und so weiter. Aus eigener Erfahrung kann ich sagen, ja, x-Rechnung funktioniert, es erhöht aber auch entweder meinen Aufwand, ja, da ich 'n externes Tool für die Abrechnung brauche und da alles übertragen muss von meiner Buchhaltung in das externe Tool oder es wird auch teurer für mich, da sich meine Buchhaltung den Standard, meine eigene Buchhaltung mit 'nem Aufpreis bezahlen lässt. Wer profitiert denn nun eigentlich von dem Standard? Ich offensichtlich nicht. Langfristig vielleicht schon. Nein, das ist ja ein ganz generelles Phänomen bei Standards. Also wir haben immer Deswegen kann es mitunter auch extrem schwierig sein, einen Standard zu setzen, weil immer natürlich diejenigen, die schon an den Standardkonform arbeiten, einen enormen Vorteil haben gegenüber denjenigen, die sich an dem Standard anpassen müssen. Das ist son gewisser Grundkonflikt in 'ner enormen Standardisierung. Die Hoffnung ist dann, wenn der Standard einmal durchgesetzt ist, dass jedes Buchhaltungsprogramm das dann automatisch ausspucken kann nach 'ner gewissen Übergangszeit. Aber klar, in diesem Fall hast Du die Anpassungskosten. Mhm. Mhm. Erst mal. Erst mal, ja. Gut, aber die Behörden, für die ist das natürlich schon auch eine Automatisierung und auch eine Vereinfachung, wenn sie nicht verschiedene Rechnungen jeweils bekommen, die dann immer komplett anders aussehen. Ja, also sone klassische, womöglich noch handgeschriebene Rechnung auf sonem Quillungsformular, wie wir das so kennen, Postkartengröße, das konnte man früher nur durch 'n Menschen in ein System übertragen lassen. Da gab's gar keine anderen Möglichkeiten. Jetzt kommt die Rechnung ja nicht in Papierform und auch nicht in Pseudopapierform mehr bei der Behörde an, sondern das ist 'n Datensatz, der bei der Behörde ankommt. Und wenn da die Felder korrekt ausgefüllt sind, dann kann die Behörde das sofort in ihr System reinfließen lassen. Da guckt kein Mensch mehr überhaupt auf die Rechnung drauf Und bei dem X-Rechnungsstandard ist es auch gar nicht zwangsläufig vorgesehen, dass es da eine Möglichkeit gibt, dass auf die Rechnung, wie wir die so klassisch kennen, noch 'n Mensch draufguckt. Da braucht man hinterher erst wieder, wenn man es dann tun möchte, 'n Tool, was die Daten in ein für Menschen auswertbares Format übersetzt. Mhm. Und das erspart uns dann einen Zwischenschritt, den man sonst ja zum Beispiel auch von Banking Apps kennt, dass man sich eine Rechnung abfotografiert und die dann automatisch das Überweisungsformular einträgt. Das ist im Grunde so ähnlich, also wird dann die Struktur ausgelesen aus dieser Rechnung, die ja meistens auch schon sehr strukturiert sind, sehr standardisiert sind. Genau den Schritt und die damit verbundenen Fehlerquellen erspart man sich damit. Was was jede Behörde unbedingt haben wollen sollte, weil wir wissen alle, alle Behörden klagen darüber, dass sie nicht genug Mitarbeiter haben. Ja und die kann man vielleicht sagen, na ja, es ist ja nur ein Zwischenschritt, den man hier vielleicht einspart, aber wenn man sich das hochrechnet, wenn man überlegt, wie viele Rechnungen jeden Tag so verschickt werden. Ich weiß nicht, wie viele es sind, aber ich kann mir vorstellen, ist eine ganze Menge. Dann addiert sich das wahrscheinlich schon, ne? Das sind enorme Zahlen. Jetzt könnte man natürlich sagen, na gut, also wenn das mit den Standards son Riesending ist, dann bräuchte man vielleicht so einen monumentalen Universalstandard, son riesiges Formular, wo für alle Fälle, die in der Verwaltung so betreffen, etwas geregelt ist. Nur sagt ihr aber in eurer Publikation, fand ich interessant, son Universalstandard, den braucht's gar nicht. Den sollte es sogar gar nicht geben, sondern mehrere datenbezogene Standards. Was meint ihr damit? Könnte jetzt noch mal auf das Horrorszenario vom Microsoft Watch Standard zurückkommen. Horrorszenario, die nicht. Wo genau das, allerdings auch mit bestimmten unternehmenspolitischen Hintergründen, aber wo genau das versucht worden ist, halt dieses Format in einen Standard zu pressen. Ist auch in einem Standard gepresst worden, ich glaube 1000 Seiten oder so, irgendwie sowas in der Richtung und auch Microsoft hat das nicht geschafft damals, diesen Standard zu erfüllen. Also so ein Standard erreicht. Das ist ein Aspekt, warum das schwierig ist, er reicht sehr schnell eine enorme Komplexität, die kaum noch Herrn Papa ist. Und in der Regel ist es auch gar nicht nötig, alles in einen Standard zu packen, weil meist lässt sich ein Fall doch ziemlich gut von 'nem anderen Fall abgrenzen und sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in diesem Fall. Hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in dem anderen Fall und dann gibt's 'n gemeinsamen Part. Und da ist es am besten, wenn man für alle 3 Teile entweder 3 einzelne Standards hat, dann kann man nämlich auch flexibel damit umgehen. Könnte eben zum Beispiel auch noch 'n dritten Fall schaffen, der ähnlich zu dem gemeinsamen Teil passt, dann macht man nur noch 'n Zusatzstandard für den dritten Fall. Der benutzt dann auch das, was alle 3 gemeinsam benutzen. Da muss man nicht noch mal wieder sich abstimmen und völlig Neues entwickeln, wenn man einen riesigen Standard versuchen würde zu schaffen. Das merkt man selber ganz schnell bei kleinen Dingen, die man versucht zu organisieren, da verliert man den Überblick. Und dann wird einem auch nicht mehr klar, okay, ich hab da an 1 Stelle auf den 500 Seiten was festgelegt, hat man dann, wenn man weiter hinten oder weiter vorne ist, schon vergessen. Fällt aber dann schlussendlich auf einen zurück, wenn es dann tatsächlich in Technik umgesetzt wird, jemand das alles verantwortungsvoll umsetzt in die Technik, die Festlegung, die da irgendwo in den 500 Seiten verborgen ist. Und dann stellt man irgendwann fest, es funktioniert nicht mehr miteinander, weil zum Beispiel Festlegungen, die in einem viel zu großen Standard drin sind, sich gegenseitig auch durchaus widersprechen können. Hast Du 'n Beispiel, wo eigentlich verschiedene Standards sinnvoller sind als so ein riesiger Universal? Na, ganz klar. Wir haben vorhin schon über Bluetooth gesprochen. Es gibt ja x Möglichkeiten, Over the Air Daten auszutauschen. Wir haben WLAN, wir haben Mobilfunk, wir haben Richtfunk zum Beispiel, wir haben den Radiofunk. Da braucht's keinen gemeinsamen Standard. Die laufen schon mal auf verschiedenen Frequenzen. Dafür brauchen wir 'n Standard, der festlegt, wer auf welcher Frequenz arbeiten darf. Und dann sind sie alle erst mal auf ihrer einzelnen Frequenz. Und dann kommt hier auch noch die Technik ganz konkret zum Tragen, dass bestimmte Arten der Datenübertragung nicht auf allen Frequenzen gleichermaßen gut funktionieren. Da wird es relativ offensichtlich, dass schon die Technik es begrenzt, 'n einheitlichen Standard einzusetzen. Und das würde auch nicht wirklich was nutzen, wenn man das alles in ein großes Standardgebäude reinpacken würde, sondern da hilft es ganz klar, eine Struktur zu haben, zu sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Frequenzbereich, der darf so und so genutzt werden. Ist jetzt bisschen weit weg von den Daten der öffentlichen Verwaltung, aber so ganz generell. Und in diesem Frequenzbereich, Da machen wir aber 'n ordentlichen Standard, der gut dazu passt und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den öffentlichen Daten. Wir grenzen ganz klar ab. Wir sagen, okay, das ist unser Anwendungsfall, dafür brauchen wir jetzt 'n Standard. Der Anwendungsfall grenzt an folgende anderen Anwendungsfälle an, aber da gibt's klare Unterschiede, klare Abgrenzung und es gibt Gemeinsamkeiten. Auf die Gemeinsamkeiten versuchen wir uns auch gemeinsam zu einigen, dafür 'n Standard zu schaffen und für das, was eben keine Abstimmung mit anderen bedarf, dafür schaffen wir uns jetzt 'n eigenen Standard für diesen Teil des Falles. Ein Beispiel habe ich gefunden in eurer Publikation, vielleicht passt das auch gerade hier ganz gut, nämlich was passiert eigentlich, wenn Daten von Bürger*innen, ja, zum Beispiel Namen einmal auf Lateinisch geschrieben werden oder in anderen Fall vielleicht auf Guerillisch. Da haben wir ja völlig verschiedene Schreibweisen von Sprachen, ja, die müssen aber trotzdem irgendwie synchronisiert werden. Braucht's ja auch verschiedene Standards, die dann irgendwann wieder zusammentreffen? Definitiv brauchen wir da 'n Standard. Irgendwann ist in der deutschen Verwaltung alles in lateinischen Buchstaben abgebildet. Natürlich kann man jetzt rangehen und sagen, ja, aber wir haben doch in der EU, wir haben die griechische Schrift, wir haben die kyrillische Schrift in 'ner EU. Ja, die meisten EU Staaten benutzen die lateinische Schrift, aber die EU ist ja mehr als das. Nichtsdestotrotz wäre es auf der anderen Seite in vielen Fällen einfach viel zu aufwendig, jetzt sämtliche denkbaren Schriftarten, Schriftsätze in der deutschen Verwaltung, in den Speichern der deutschen Verwaltung abbilden zu können. Kann man sich schnell vorstellen, wir haben 80000000 Bürger. Ich sag mal, davon ist vielleicht 1000000 maximal, die aus einem Land stammt und ursprünglich eine andere Schrift angewendet hat, Namen und andere Daten zu bezeichnen. Da ist es in vielen Fällen sinnvoller und auch ausreichend, da durchaus auf das lateinische Schriftsystem abzubilden und da gibt's auch klare Regeln. Allerdings, auch hier ist das Problem, da haben sich über die Zeit eben verschiedene Regelwerke entwickelt. Und da ist es dann sinnvoll, mal zu gucken, welches Regelwerk denn das Verbreitetste ist, was auch zum Beispiel in der Wirtschaft angewendet wird oder was eben auch in anderen Fällen angewendet wird, wo Zusammentreffen von Schriftsystemen stattfinden, zum Beispiel im Luftverkehr. Und dann zu sagen, ja, wir nehmen dann 1 dieser Systeme, die schon stark und breit eingeführt sind, weil man dann auch davon ausgehen kann, was schon stark und breit eingeführt ist, ist auch schon oft ausprobiert worden und da haben hoffentlich auch schon andere Leute etwaige Fehler vorher gefunden. Mhm. Es wird hoffentlich weiterentwickelt. Also ist bei Schriftzeichen jetzt vielleicht nicht so zentral der Punkt, aber bei technischen Fragen natürlich ganz wichtig. Also je intensiver et cetera ist parigos, aber je intensiver ein Standard genutzt wird, desto eher wird er auch weiterentwickelt mit der entsprechenden Community dahinter. Sprechen wir über ein anderes Thema, nämlich Metadaten. Ja, so bislang haben wir über die Datensätze selber gesprochen. Metadaten sind noch mal 'n bisschen was anderes. Wir kennen das im Alltag, wenn wir zum Beispiel unsere digitale Fotosammlung verschlagworten, ja, die Fotodaten, die ich aus meinem Urlaub gemacht hab und mitbringe, das sind die Bilddaten und das, was ich als Schlagwort dahinter packe, nämlich Urlaub 20 24, das sind die Metadaten. Welche Metadaten spielen beim Austausch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung eine Rolle und wo müssen die standardisiert werden? Also ganz offensichtlich wird es bei so etwas wie Open Data Plattformen, wo man ein ein breites Spektrum von unterschiedlichsten Daten hat und dann erst mal verstehen muss, was das für Daten denn sind, die da gespeichert worden sind. Aber grundsätzlich ist es natürlich immer wichtig, nur bei Registerdaten ist der der Granularitätsgrad so fein, dass ich die Metadaten sowieso schon wissen muss, damit arbeiten zu können. Aber so bei der Open Data Plattform, wie schon gesagt, da da wird's offensichtlich, dass ich erst mal wissen muss, was wird denn da überhaupt beschrieben und in welcher Form? Mhm. Also die Einigung darüber, was für Daten wollen wir hier eigentlich abfragen, an welchen Stellen? Ja, also das Stichwort ist hier auch vor allen Dingen Open Data, Open in dem Sinne auch, dass ich ja nicht weiß, wer ist der Nutzer der Daten? Und insofern, je weniger ich über den Nutzer meiner Daten weiß und je weniger ich mit dem auch schon in Kontakt getreten bin und in Kontakt treten werde, desto mehr muss ich meine Daten beschreiben, damit sie für den Nutzer der Daten, die Nutzerin der Daten auch hinterher von Wert sein können. Was übrigens überhaupt nicht trivial ist. Das fängt ja schon bei disziplinären Grenzen an. In in Paper bin ich wieder über Datensatz gestolpert, das unterschiedliche Verständnis von Datensatz. Für die Informatikerin ist es der eine Eintrag. Ach ja. Für mich ist es tendenziell eher die Sammlung von Ich will auf Diffulierung hineinkommen. Wir haben's aber wir haben's aber im Papier durchaus definiert. Ja, ja, voll warm, klar. Aber aber auch ja, der Begriff des Datensatzes ist tatsächlich auch innerhalb der Informatikerdisziplin was, worauf man sich jedes Mal wieder einigen muss. Entweder ist der Datensatz die ganze Datei, die ganzen zum Beispiel Wasserstände, die ich über die letzten 50 Jahre an 1 Messstelle in einem Fluss gesammelt habe oder es ist halt genau die eine Aussage, den Wasserstand, den ich heute Morgen 8 Uhr 23 dort gemessen habe. Also selbst bei den Fachleuten ist es mit den Datenstandards nicht immer ganz trivial. Gut, also ich nehm mit, Informatiker*innen müssen ihre Gespräche standardisieren, sonst gibt's ja ganz schnell Streit und Missverständnis. Noch schlimmer wird, wenn man mit Ihnen spricht. Ja, also das ist das ist wenn man mit Ihnen spricht. Ja, also das ist das ist in den Ja, also mit ihren Perspektive. Beliebtes Beispiel ist auch das Wort Schnittstelle. Das benutzen wir ja ganz viel und auch wenn wir hier über Datenkommunikation, Datenübertragung, Datenaustausch reden, da ist es ja immer die Schnittstelle, über die die Daten hinweg müssen. Wenn man mit 'nem E-Tech über eine Schnittstelle spricht, dann hat der in der Regel 'n physischen Stecker und eine Steckdose im Kopf. Oder eine Mikrofonbuchse und das Kabel mit dem entsprechenden Stecker dazu. Da muss man sich auch erst mal drüber einigen, worüber wir jetzt hier grade reden. Und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den bei den datenbezogenen Standards. Da haben wir zwar eine gemeinsame Vorstellung, was die Schnittstelle ist, aber da haben wir auch 'n großes Spektrum der vertikalen Unterteilung. Genau wie vorhin schon angesprochen, die Daten sind eventuell in dem einen oder in dem anderen Schriftsystem abgelegt. Wenn wir jetzt 'n Schritt weitergehen, gucken wir uns Anja, welche Bedeutung, welche Semantik haben die Daten an der Stelle? Was ist damit gemeint? Die Sprache spielt eine Rolle, die ja auch oberhalb des Schriftsystems noch sitzt. Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die zum Beispiel das chyralische Schriftsystem benutzen. Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die das lateinische Schriftsystem benutzen. Und unten drunter landen ja keine lateinischen Buchstaben irgendwo in Computern, sondern das sind irgendwelche Bitwerte. Da brauchen wir auch wieder eine Abbildung. Und auch diese Strukturierung brauchen wir bei den datenbezogenen Standards, eben genau nicht so von unten sich anzugucken, wir haben die Festplatte. Wie ist die Festplatte denn physisch aufgebaut? Bis hoch, in welcher Sprache sind die Daten denn überhaupt sinnvoll interpretierbar? Also 'n komplexes Thema, das merke ich schon. Man kann sich da auch verlieren in der Tiefe. Bevor wir das jetzt machen, lasst uns noch mal einen anderen Aspekt anschauen. Wir haben jetzt ja bislang über den Austausch von Daten gesprochen. Das ist eine. Es geht aber auch Datensicherheit, wenn wir über Standard sprechen. Wie welche Rolle spielt Datensicherheit bei diesen Standards? Ja, also wir brauchen Sicherheitsstandards für die Daten, weil erwiesenermaßen Sicherheit immer nur so gut ist wie das schwächste Glied in der Kette. Und das gilt halt auch für die Daten. Wenn ich 'n Verfahren habe, wo Daten über verschiedene Stellen womöglich über verschiedene Behörden fließen, brauch ich Sicherheitsstandards, die von allen beteiligten Stellen eingehalten werden, ein minimales Sicherheitsniveau der Daten sicherstellen zu können. Ganz klar, wenn ich Daten beispielsweise zwischen 3 Behörden auszutauschen habe, 2 Behörden davon verschlüsseln die Kommunikation zwischen sich. Die dritte Behörde unterstützt nicht die gleiche Verschlüsselung wie eine der beiden anderen und sagt, oh, oh, bei mir fließen dann, weiß nicht anders, geht die Daten unverschlüsselt über die Leitung? Ja, wenn dann 1 halt auf der Leitung draufsitzt und die Daten mithört, dann hat er alle Daten mitgehört, weil ja die Daten sozusagen über alle Behörden hinwegfließen und demgemäß die gleiche Datengrundlage dort an allen 3 Stellen übertragen wird. Mhm. Also da wird auch noch mal deutlich, wie wichtig da eben auch gemeinsame Standards sind an der Stelle. In der Medienberichterstattung in den letzten Jahren, da ist uns das begegnet, das Thema vielleicht bei dem bei der elektronischen Patientenakte. Da kam nämlich plötzlich die Diskussion auf, ne, sollte nicht hier die Blockchain eine größere Rolle spielen, also man so von, Kryptowährung ist ja auch 'n Standard, Blockchain, einfach Gesundheitsdaten, die sehr, sehr sensibel sind, zu verschlüsseln. Ist das 'n Standard, der uns in Zukunft hier auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung öfters begegnen wird? Also Verschlüsselung sicherlich. Bei der Blockchain bin ich mir weniger sicher, ob die Zukunft nicht eine große Rolle spielen wird. Da wird dann der Lage längst auch gerne in diesen Diskussionen so ein bisschen was zusammengewürfelt. Also so ein ja letztlich monolithisches Angebot wie die elektronische Patientenakte, die sicher zu machen, brauche ich nicht unbedingt ein dezentrales System wie die Blockchain. Also vernünftige Verschlüsselungsstandards würden da vollkommen reichen. Und vor allen Dingen, die Blockchain ist an sich eher 'n offenes System, weil ich kann zwar in der Blockchain die Daten verschlüsseln, aber die Blockchain ist in erster Linie dazu gedacht, Daten nachvollziehbar irgendwo ablegen zu können. Also überprüfen zu können, dass die Daten als solche korrekt sind. Dass sie nicht manipuliert wurden zum Beispiel. Dass vor allen Dingen auch Metadaten über Daten nicht manipuliert worden sind. Also zum Beispiel ein Transaktionszeitpunkt oder ein Betrag, das ist der wesentliche Ansatz der Blockchain. Verschlüsselung, wie gesagt, kann man in der Blockchain machen, aber kann man auch überall woanders machen und die Blockchain als solche bietet in Sachen Verschlüsselung keine besonderen Vorteile. Die Verschlüsselungsarten, die Verschlüsselungsalgorithmen sind unabhängig davon, ob ich das in 'nem Speicher, in 'ner Datenbank oder in 'ner Blockchain mache. Kommen wir zum letzten Punkt eurer Publikation, da habt ihr nämlich auch die Frage aufgeworfen nach einem ethischen Umgang mit Daten. Fand ich spannend, was meint ihr damit? Gut, wir kennen's wir kennen's eigentlich alle von 'ner Datenschutzgrundverordnung, die ja inzwischen auch, von der jeder Bürger auch inzwischen schon mal zumindest was gehört hat oder dem Bundesdatenschutzgesetz, was das ja eigentlich abbildet. Wir dürfen nicht alle Daten für alle beliebigen Zwecke verwenden. Wir dürfen Daten nicht beliebig kombinieren. Der Bürger, die Bürgerin hat ein Recht auf Privatsphäre, auf Geheimnisse. Und wir dürfen eben halt auch nicht die technischen Mittel, die wir heute zum Teil haben und die erschreckende Möglichkeiten bieten, Daten zusammenzuführen und daraus Rückschlüsse über Personen zu ziehen, in ihrer vollen Breite für diese Zwecke nutzen. Und da brauchen wir ethische Standards, die uns da auch Grenzen setzen. Genauso wie wir ethische Standards dafür brauchen, auf welche Art und Weise wir bestimmte Daten überhaupt gewinnen dürfen. Was ist eine zulässige Art, Daten überhaupt in die Hand zu bekommen? Also wir wissen alle, dass zum Beispiel ja in anderen Regimen Daten durch Folter gewonnen werden. Ist ganz klar, dafür brauchen wir in Deutschland nicht irgendwie noch 'n extra Papier, 'n extra Standard, den sich Deutschland setzt. Aber es gibt eben halt auch Abstufungen und Grenzbereiche und auch da müssen wir uns Regeln setzen. Mhm. Wir haben heute in diesem Podcast ja doch eine ziemliche Fahrt gemacht durch verschiedene Aspekte datenbezogener Standards. Lasst uns jetzt am Schluss mal zusammenfassen, was macht jetzt wirklich einen guten datenbezogenen Standard aus? Also was sozusagen kommt alles in die Rührschüssel für unseren damit so einen Standardkuchen, wenn ich den mal so nennen Da kann man uns gegenseitig die Zutaten zuschmeißen, ne? Er wird eingehalten hoffentlich, fang ich mit an. Ja, und er ist umfassend für einen gut beschriebenen Anwendungsfall, aber er bietet auch Flexibilität, weil wir wissen alle, Anwendungsfälle auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung entwickeln sich weiter. Das heißt, 'n Standard, der zu stark sich fokussiert auf das Hier und Heute, der kann eben in 5 Jahren schon völlig unbrauchbar geworden sein, weil ihn die Technik überholt hat, weil ihn Rechtsprechung überholt hat oder weil ihn halt gesellschaftliche Bedürfnisse überholt haben. Das heißt, der wird akzeptiert, der ist flexibel? Entsprechend passend dazu weiterentwickelt, laufend. Zum Beispiel, ja, hast Du eigentlich ja schon gesagt an technische Entwicklung oder gesellschaftliche Bedarfe angepasst. Ein auch ganz wichtiger Aspekt, der jetzt nicht so zentral ist, aber dann in der Umsetzung, glaube ich, einiges an Bedeutung gewinnt, der muss vielleicht zugänglich sein. Ich muss gut rankommen können. Da gibt es ja unterschiedliche Modelle, auch der Standard setzenden Gremien, ob er frei im Sinne auch von kostenlos auffindbar ist oder halt eben bezahlt werden muss, was dann weder gerade für kleine Kommunen, mit denen wir heute angefangen haben, durchaus eine Zugangsbarriere sein kann. Also auch dafür braucht's dann Lösungen, damit auch alle, die den Standard einhalten sollen, ihn auch Problemus kriegen können. Man merkt schon, wenn wir jetzt so diskutieren, wenn ich euch auch bei der Diskussion zuhöre, das ist 'n Thema für Expert*innen. Jetzt haben wir vielleicht Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist Jetzt haben wir vielleicht Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist 'n ganz schöner Brocken in meiner kleinen Kommune, in meiner Behörde. Wer hilft denn bei der Implementierung von datenbezogenen Standards, wenn man selbst nicht weiter weiß? Also üblicherweise, wenn's die Implementierung technischer Standards geht, wenn's die Implementierung von Sicherheitsstandards geht, da bedient man sich ja 1 Dienstleisters. Und da verstärkt sich dann noch das Problem, was Mike eben angesprochen hat, der Zugänglichkeit von Standards. Also grade wenn es zum Beispiel Normen geht und ich hab eine kleine Behörde, da ließe sich noch relativ gut vorstellen, dass die Behördenmitarbeiter vielleicht über einen geschlossenen Behördenzugang auf Normen auch zugreifen können. Aber ob der kleine Dienstleister dann noch die Normen in der Breite verfügbar hat, die durchaus sone Investition bedeuten können, wenn man sich 'n breiteren Überblick über Normen verschaffen möchte, das ist dann schon sehr fraglich. Das heißt, da muss eigentlich auch die entsprechende Kompetenz und die Vorarbeit teilweise in die Behörde vorverlagert werden, sodass die Behörden in die Lage versetzt werden, zu sagen, hier, diese Standards sind jetzt erforderlich. Und nur die, lieber Dienstleister, die musst Du dir dann beschaffen, wenn Du für uns da eine entsprechende Realisierung in technischer Art und Weise machst. Das heißt, es braucht mehr Kompetenz auch in den Behörden, in den Verwaltungen. Ja, habt ihr dann noch zum Schluss eine konkrete Handlungsempfehlung? Also sich Kompetenz reinholen, das ist das eine. Maik, was gibt's noch auf der Agenda? Ja, ich denke, dass einiges an dieser Kompetenzarbeit auch durchaus zusammengefasst werden könnte. Es gibt ja auch Institutionen, die sich intensiv mit enormen Standardisierungen der öffentlichen Verwaltung auseinandersetzen. Deren Serviceangebot könnte vielleicht noch breiter sein und sich ja auch an kleinere Kommunen zum Beispiel richten. Ja, also wir brauchen definitiv Lotsenfunktionen. Wir brauchen Lotsenfunktionen durch die existierenden Standards. Und wir brauchen auch Lotsenfunktionen in dem Fall, dass 'n neuer Standard geschaffen werden muss. Dass eben auch Fehler, die größere Organisationen schon nicht mehr machen, weil sie gelernt haben, wie man's besser machen sollte, nicht von kleineren Organisationen dann einige Jahre verzögert erneut gemacht werden, weil dort eben das Wissen nicht vorhanden ist. Also wir brauchen sehr viel mehr Lotsenunterstützung, einerseits interbehördlich und andererseits brauchen wir halt auch für die Dienstleister, aber auch für diejenigen, die mit der öffentlichen Verwaltung zusammenarbeiten müssen. Wir hatten vorhin das Beispiel x Rechnung, wo ja die Umsetzung im Prinzip von jeder Firma in irgend 'ner Form verfügbar sein muss, die jetzt eine Rechnung an die öffentliche Hand stellt. Wir brauchen auch für diese kleinen Firmen, die dann die Öffentlichkeit, die Wirtschaft unterstützen, mit der öffentlichen Hand kommunizieren, interagieren zu können, da brauchen wir auch Lotsenfunktionen. Datenbezogene Standards und warum sie in der öffentlichen Verwaltung wichtig sind. Das war restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums Öffentlicher IT. Vielen Dank an Gabriele Goldacker und Doktor Mike Weber für das Gespräch. Schön, dass ihr hier wart. Sehr gerne. Dankeschön. Die passende Publikation, die gibt's wieder online unter öfid Punkt d e. Öfid mit o e und schaut auch gern mal in den Shownotes, da haben wir sie nämlich für euch verlinkt. Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, empfehlt uns gerne weiter und folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und überall, wo es Podcast gibt. Danke fürs Zuhören. 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Damit diese Verbindung reibungslos funktioniert, müssen beide Geräte denselben Standard verwenden. Der legt nämlich fest, wie die Kommunikation zwischen den Geräten abläuft, welche Frequenzen verwendet und wie die Daten übertragen werden. Wenn sowohl dein Smartphone als auch der Lautsprecher den Bluetooth Standard unterstützen, dann können Sie problemlos miteinander kommunizieren. Wenn nicht, dann ist die Party auch ganz schnell wieder vorbei.\n\nSpeaker 1: Auch in\n\nSpeaker 0: der öffentlichen Verwaltung spielen datenbezogene Standards eine Rolle. Nehmen wir mal Bürger*innendaten, den Personalausweis, die Geburtsurkunde oder auch Steuerinformationen. Mit einem einheitlichen Datenformat für alle Behörden lassen sich Informationen nahtlos austauschen. Das erleichtert die Zusammenarbeit und verhindert Fehler, die unterschiedliche Formate verursachen könnten. Es gibt aber auch noch weitere Gründe, sich mit datenbezogenen Standards zu befassen und welche genau das sind, das erfahrt ihr heute in diesem Podcast.\n\nHerzlich willkommen zurück aus der Sommerpause hier beim öfit Podcast, restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts für offene Kommunikationssysteme. Mein Name ist Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts. Das ist zum einen Gabriele Goldacker. Sie ist als Informatikerin, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT und Co Autorin 1 Publikation zum Thema datenbezogene Standards. Moin Gabriele, schön, dass Du dir Hallo Philipp.\n\nUnd ja, Stammgast wie immer eigentlich auch hier vor Ort bei uns im Studio in Berlin Tegel, Doktor Mike Weber. Er ist Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des öfid. Hallo Mike, schön, dass Du hergefunden hast durch den Verkehrsdschungel nach Tegel.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo Philipp, ja, trotz BVG hab ichs geschafft.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, böse Zungen behaupten vielleicht, der einzige datenbezogene Standard in der öffentlichen Verwaltung ist das Fax, aber ganz so ist es ja nicht. Auch digitale Standards sind bei Behörden wichtig. Ein Beispiel habe ich ja gerade schon genannt. Lasst uns aber gern noch mal auf andere Beispiele kommen. Welche Anwendungsfälle kommen euch noch in den Sinn für datenbezogene Standards in der öffentlichen Verwaltung, Abrede?\n\nSpeaker 2: Es gibt unendlich viele Anwendungsfälle, weil ganz viel, was die öffentliche Verwaltung tut, ist, mit Daten zu arbeiten. Und in dem Moment, wo irgendwo Daten zwischen verschiedenen Stellen hin- und herfließen müssen, hin- und hergeschoben werden müssen oder auch wo Daten in die Öffentlichkeit gebracht werden müssen, braucht man dafür irgendwelche Standards. Früher waren's eben halt Papierformate, wie irgendwelche Tabellen auf Papier dargestellt zu werden haben. Wir kennen's alle von unseren Steuerbescheiden. Auch dahinter steckt 'n Standard.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und wenn man's ganz einfach denkt, fängt ja wahrscheinlich schon bei 'ner Textverwaltung an, oder? Ich meine, wenn die eine Behörde Microsoft Word arbeitet und die andere beispielsweise mit Open Office, 2 verschiedene Dateiformate, dann wird's plötzlich schwierig, da verschiedene Dokumente zu öffnen, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das ist ja ein geradezu legendäres Beispiel für die Schwierigkeiten von Standardisierung, in die von Textformaten. Ja, in der Tat. Also wenn man noch Open Office Formate findet irgendwo in der Verwaltung, dann hat man da zumindest bei Sonderfunktionen sehr gerne irgendwelche Übersetzungsprobleme, die dann zu Buchstabensalat führen können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Was hilft denn nun aber, sich da zu einigen auf Standards? Also jetzt bei mir im Team Podcaststudio, da ist das relativ einfach. Wir sind ja nun gerade mal 10 Leute und dazu sagen, ja, wir arbeiten alle mit Open Office, da kriegen wir uns schon geeinigt. Wenn aber Behörden in verschiedenen Kommunen, in verschiedenen Städten, so vor sich hin wurschteln, wie kommt man da zu gemeinsam Standards?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das Beschließen 1 einzelnen Standards für alle ist in der Tat, je größer das Kongruat wird, immer schwieriger. Die Krux ist es dann, sich auf die Mindestvoraussetzungen zu einigen, also zum Beispiel einheitliche Datenstandards, die dann auszutauschen, einheitliche Standards für die Übermittlung der Daten und dann möglicherweise in den einzelnen Anwendungen dann eventuell tatsächlich dann mit anderen Datenformaten zu arbeiten. Aber auf jeden Fall immer dann, wenn Daten übertragen werden, ist es essenziell.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gabriel, hast Du da Erfahrung, wie kann man Daten standardisieren, auch zwischen Kommunen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Wie es zwischen Kommunen funktionieren könnte, da hab ich schon Ideen, aber oft läuft's anders. Wäre also eigentlich wünschenswert, wenn die eine Kommune feststellt, ich brauch jetzt irgendwie 'n neues Format. Ich muss jetzt die Hunde in der Kommune erfassen, unabhängig von der Hundesteuer nach der Art des Hundes zum Beispiel und das hat ja schon eine andere Kommune gemacht, hinzugehen und zu sagen, wie macht 'n ihr das? Wie erfasst er das? Wie codiert er das?\n\nSo funktioniert's leider oft nicht, sondern da geht dann jeder so los. In der Regel macht das ja auch nicht 'n Kommunalmitarbeiter, sondern da hat man 'n Dienstleister dafür, je kleiner die Kommune auch oft, je kleiner der Dienstleister und der macht dann. Und dann wird's eben eher kein Standard. Und wenn man dann feststellt, okay, wir wollen jetzt irgendwelche bundesweiten Register aufsetzen oder bundesweite Abfragen aufsetzen, dann stellt man fest, okay, es funktioniert nicht miteinander. Dann gibt es Gremien, die etabliert werden, zum Beispiel der IT Planungsrat, die dann versuchen, genau solche Probleme zu lösen, indem Arbeitsgruppen gebildet werden, die dann beauftragt werden, entsprechende Standards zu schaffen.\n\nWas nicht unbedingt heißt, dass der Standard dann auch in der Kommune oder im Land tatsächlich an allen Stellen eingesetzt wird, sondern man passt sich dann für die Datenübertragung, die Datenkommunikation, den Datenaustausch an, den gemeinsamen Standard an. Was hinten stattfindet im Speicher innerhalb der Kommune, ist davon im Prinzip unabhängig und bleibt auch oft so.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Ja, Hundesteuer ist vielleicht 'n gutes Beispiel, ne? Die eine Kommune fragt alle Handdaten ab, die andere nur 2 oder 3, da muss das aber irgendwie zusammengewurschtelt werden. Auf dem Komplexitätslevel kann ich mir noch vorstellen, dass man sich einigt, aber es gibt sicherlich noch Beispiele, wo es denn komplizierter wird. Wo gibt's denn den größten Verbesserungsbedarf beim Austausch von Daten?\n\nJetzt ganz konkret, wenn wir uns mal angucken, die ganzen Probleme und die Daten, die wir von Kommunen erfasst werden.\n\nSpeaker 2: Den größten Verbesserungsbedarf gibt es bei dem, was uns jetzt bevorsteht. Dieses sogenannte Gateway Gateway, wo nicht nur für Firmen, wo wir das ja im Prinzip schon haben, sondern für jeden Bürger in der EU die Möglichkeit bestehen soll, Dienstleistungen auch Nationalitätsgrenzen überschreitend in Anspruch zu nehmen. Und wir haben zusätzlich den Anspruch, dass nicht mehr jeder Bürger, wenn er zum Amt geht oder eben auch digital zum Amt geht, erst mal seine Dokumente, die Geburtsurkunde, die Meldebescheinigung scannt und entsprechend bei der virtuellen oder auch physischen Behörde vorlegt, sondern dass wir das alles aus den Registern rausholen, wo die Daten ja vorhanden sind. Und jede Behörde, die sie dann auch braucht, auf aktuelle und korrekte Daten zugreifen kann. Und zwar eben auch nicht, indem erst mal 'n Antrag gestellt wird und die Daten muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen\n\nSpeaker 0: zum Amt? Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon. Muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen zum Amt? Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon. Und so könnte sich das dann noch austauschen lassen, wenn man umzieht zum Beispiel wahrscheinlich, ne?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, das das das sollte heute eigentlich schon überhaupt gar kein Problem mehr sein. Aber da sind wir leider an vielen Stellen noch nicht so weit.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wann könnte es so weit sein?\n\nSpeaker 1: Mit Zukunftsfragen kommen wir da zu mir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Du bist doch Zukunftsforscher, dachte ich. Ich.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, mir die Jahreszahlen sind wir immer sehr geizig. Na ja, wir haben ja so einige Entwicklungen, die genau darauf einzahlen sollen. Stichwort Registermodernisierung, wo halt genau diese Register so aufgestellt werden sollen, dass dieser Datenaustausch funktionieren kann. Stichwort on the only, dass tatsächlich auch aus den Registern die Daten gezogen werden können, wenn sie denn gebraucht werden. Das sind alles riesige Vorhaben, die sicherlich noch, na, soll ich mich jetzt zu 'ner Jahreszeit hinreißen lassen, sicherlich noch 15 Jahre dauern werden, bevor sie wirklich Früchte tragen.\n\nUnd dann haben wir natürlich auch in jedem einzelnen Register und in jedem einzelnen Verfahren dann die Fragen, passen jetzt die Datenstandards alle zusammen? Also sprich, bis das dann alles ganz flüssig bis in den letzten Winkel funktioniert, kann das auch noch 'n bisschen länger dauern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also sieht man auch, also technisch ist das ja sicherlich kein Hexenwerk und kein Zauber, aber eben diese Standards zu finden, daran hakt's dann eben doch und das braucht eben ganz offensichtlich Zeit. Bleiben wir aber beim Thema, Austausch von Daten innerhalb der EU, auch zwischen verschiedenen nationalen Behörden. Ihr nennt selber ein Beispiel in eurer Publikation, nämlich x-Rechnung. Ich hab mich über das Beispiel gefreut, denn ich durfte auch schon Bekanntschaft mit x-Rechnung machen. Mal zur Erklärung, mit diesem Standard wird ja die Rechnungsstellung gegenüber Behörden EU weit standardisiert.\n\nJa, es gibt dann im Prinzip auch, wird ganz genau gesagt, hier kommt die Rechnungsnummer hin, da kommt der Betrachten hin, da die Beschreibung und so weiter. Aus eigener Erfahrung kann ich sagen, ja, x-Rechnung funktioniert, es erhöht aber auch entweder meinen Aufwand, ja, da ich 'n externes Tool für die Abrechnung brauche und da alles übertragen muss von meiner Buchhaltung in das externe Tool oder es wird auch teurer für mich, da sich meine Buchhaltung den Standard, meine eigene Buchhaltung mit 'nem Aufpreis bezahlen lässt. Wer profitiert denn nun eigentlich von dem Standard? Ich offensichtlich nicht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Langfristig vielleicht schon. Nein, das ist ja ein ganz generelles Phänomen bei Standards. Also wir haben immer Deswegen kann es mitunter auch extrem schwierig sein, einen Standard zu setzen, weil immer natürlich diejenigen, die schon an den Standardkonform arbeiten, einen enormen Vorteil haben gegenüber denjenigen, die sich an dem Standard anpassen müssen. Das ist son gewisser Grundkonflikt in 'ner enormen Standardisierung. Die Hoffnung ist dann, wenn der Standard einmal durchgesetzt ist, dass jedes Buchhaltungsprogramm das dann automatisch ausspucken kann nach 'ner gewissen Übergangszeit.\n\nAber klar, in diesem Fall hast Du die Anpassungskosten. Mhm. Mhm. Erst mal.\n\nSpeaker 0: Erst mal, ja. Gut, aber die Behörden, für die ist das natürlich schon auch eine Automatisierung und auch eine Vereinfachung, wenn sie nicht verschiedene Rechnungen jeweils bekommen, die dann immer komplett anders aussehen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also sone klassische, womöglich noch handgeschriebene Rechnung auf sonem Quillungsformular, wie wir das so kennen, Postkartengröße, das konnte man früher nur durch 'n Menschen in ein System übertragen lassen. Da gab's gar keine anderen Möglichkeiten. Jetzt kommt die Rechnung ja nicht in Papierform und auch nicht in Pseudopapierform mehr bei der Behörde an, sondern das ist 'n Datensatz, der bei der Behörde ankommt. Und wenn da die Felder korrekt ausgefüllt sind, dann kann die Behörde das sofort in ihr System reinfließen lassen. Da guckt kein Mensch mehr überhaupt auf die Rechnung drauf Und bei dem X-Rechnungsstandard ist es auch gar nicht zwangsläufig vorgesehen, dass es da eine Möglichkeit gibt, dass auf die Rechnung, wie wir die so klassisch kennen, noch 'n Mensch draufguckt.\n\nDa braucht man hinterher erst wieder, wenn man es dann tun möchte, 'n Tool, was die Daten in ein für Menschen auswertbares Format übersetzt. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und das erspart uns dann einen Zwischenschritt, den man sonst ja zum Beispiel auch von Banking Apps kennt, dass man sich eine Rechnung abfotografiert und die dann automatisch das Überweisungsformular einträgt. Das ist im Grunde so ähnlich, also wird dann die Struktur ausgelesen aus dieser Rechnung, die ja meistens auch schon sehr strukturiert sind, sehr standardisiert sind. Genau den Schritt und die damit verbundenen Fehlerquellen erspart man sich damit.\n\nSpeaker 2: Was was jede Behörde unbedingt haben wollen sollte, weil wir wissen alle, alle Behörden klagen darüber, dass sie nicht genug Mitarbeiter haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und die kann man vielleicht sagen, na ja, es ist ja nur ein Zwischenschritt, den man hier vielleicht einspart, aber wenn man sich das hochrechnet, wenn man überlegt, wie viele Rechnungen jeden Tag so verschickt werden. Ich weiß nicht, wie viele es sind, aber ich kann mir vorstellen, ist eine ganze Menge. Dann addiert sich das wahrscheinlich schon,\n\nSpeaker 2: ne? Das sind enorme Zahlen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt könnte man natürlich sagen, na gut, also wenn das mit den Standards son Riesending ist, dann bräuchte man vielleicht so einen monumentalen Universalstandard, son riesiges Formular, wo für alle Fälle, die in der Verwaltung so betreffen, etwas geregelt ist. Nur sagt ihr aber in eurer Publikation, fand ich interessant, son Universalstandard, den braucht's gar nicht. Den sollte es sogar gar nicht geben, sondern mehrere datenbezogene Standards. Was meint ihr damit?\n\nSpeaker 1: Könnte jetzt noch mal auf das Horrorszenario vom Microsoft Watch Standard zurückkommen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Horrorszenario, die nicht.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wo genau das, allerdings auch mit bestimmten unternehmenspolitischen Hintergründen, aber wo genau das versucht worden ist, halt dieses Format in einen Standard zu pressen. Ist auch in einem Standard gepresst worden, ich glaube 1000 Seiten oder so, irgendwie sowas in der Richtung und auch Microsoft hat das nicht geschafft damals, diesen Standard zu erfüllen. Also so ein Standard erreicht. Das ist ein Aspekt, warum das schwierig ist, er reicht sehr schnell eine enorme Komplexität, die kaum noch Herrn Papa ist.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und in der Regel ist es auch gar nicht nötig, alles in einen Standard zu packen, weil meist lässt sich ein Fall doch ziemlich gut von 'nem anderen Fall abgrenzen und sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in diesem Fall. Hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in dem anderen Fall und dann gibt's 'n gemeinsamen Part. Und da ist es am besten, wenn man für alle 3 Teile entweder 3 einzelne Standards hat, dann kann man nämlich auch flexibel damit umgehen. Könnte eben zum Beispiel auch noch 'n dritten Fall schaffen, der ähnlich zu dem gemeinsamen Teil passt, dann macht man nur noch 'n Zusatzstandard für den dritten Fall. Der benutzt dann auch das, was alle 3 gemeinsam benutzen.\n\nDa muss man nicht noch mal wieder sich abstimmen und völlig Neues entwickeln, wenn man einen riesigen Standard versuchen würde zu schaffen. Das merkt man selber ganz schnell bei kleinen Dingen, die man versucht zu organisieren, da verliert man den Überblick. Und dann wird einem auch nicht mehr klar, okay, ich hab da an 1 Stelle auf den 500 Seiten was festgelegt, hat man dann, wenn man weiter hinten oder weiter vorne ist, schon vergessen. Fällt aber dann schlussendlich auf einen zurück, wenn es dann tatsächlich in Technik umgesetzt wird, jemand das alles verantwortungsvoll umsetzt in die Technik, die Festlegung, die da irgendwo in den 500 Seiten verborgen ist. Und dann stellt man irgendwann fest, es funktioniert nicht mehr miteinander, weil zum Beispiel Festlegungen, die in einem viel zu großen Standard drin sind, sich gegenseitig auch durchaus widersprechen können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Hast Du 'n Beispiel, wo eigentlich verschiedene Standards sinnvoller sind als so ein riesiger Universal?\n\nSpeaker 2: Na, ganz klar. Wir haben vorhin schon über Bluetooth gesprochen. Es gibt ja x Möglichkeiten, Over the Air Daten auszutauschen. Wir haben WLAN, wir haben Mobilfunk, wir haben Richtfunk zum Beispiel, wir haben den Radiofunk. Da braucht's keinen gemeinsamen Standard.\n\nDie laufen schon mal auf verschiedenen Frequenzen. Dafür brauchen wir 'n Standard, der festlegt, wer auf welcher Frequenz arbeiten darf. Und dann sind sie alle erst mal auf ihrer einzelnen Frequenz. Und dann kommt hier auch noch die Technik ganz konkret zum Tragen, dass bestimmte Arten der Datenübertragung nicht auf allen Frequenzen gleichermaßen gut funktionieren. Da wird es relativ offensichtlich, dass schon die Technik es begrenzt, 'n einheitlichen Standard einzusetzen.\n\nUnd das würde auch nicht wirklich was nutzen, wenn man das alles in ein großes Standardgebäude reinpacken würde, sondern da hilft es ganz klar, eine Struktur zu haben, zu sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Frequenzbereich, der darf so und so genutzt werden. Ist jetzt bisschen weit weg von den Daten der öffentlichen Verwaltung, aber so ganz generell. Und in diesem Frequenzbereich, Da machen wir aber 'n ordentlichen Standard, der gut dazu passt und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den öffentlichen Daten. Wir grenzen ganz klar ab. Wir sagen, okay, das ist unser Anwendungsfall, dafür brauchen wir jetzt 'n Standard.\n\nDer Anwendungsfall grenzt an folgende anderen Anwendungsfälle an, aber da gibt's klare Unterschiede, klare Abgrenzung und es gibt Gemeinsamkeiten. Auf die Gemeinsamkeiten versuchen wir uns auch gemeinsam zu einigen, dafür 'n Standard zu schaffen und für das, was eben keine Abstimmung mit anderen bedarf, dafür schaffen wir uns jetzt 'n eigenen Standard für diesen Teil des Falles.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ein Beispiel habe ich gefunden in eurer Publikation, vielleicht passt das auch gerade hier ganz gut, nämlich was passiert eigentlich, wenn Daten von Bürger*innen, ja, zum Beispiel Namen einmal auf Lateinisch geschrieben werden oder in anderen Fall vielleicht auf Guerillisch. Da haben wir ja völlig verschiedene Schreibweisen von Sprachen, ja, die müssen aber trotzdem irgendwie synchronisiert werden. Braucht's ja auch verschiedene Standards, die dann irgendwann wieder zusammentreffen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Definitiv brauchen wir da 'n Standard. Irgendwann ist in der deutschen Verwaltung alles in lateinischen Buchstaben abgebildet. Natürlich kann man jetzt rangehen und sagen, ja, aber wir haben doch in der EU, wir haben die griechische Schrift, wir haben die kyrillische Schrift in 'ner EU. Ja, die meisten EU Staaten benutzen die lateinische Schrift, aber die EU ist ja mehr als das. Nichtsdestotrotz wäre es auf der anderen Seite in vielen Fällen einfach viel zu aufwendig, jetzt sämtliche denkbaren Schriftarten, Schriftsätze in der deutschen Verwaltung, in den Speichern der deutschen Verwaltung abbilden zu können.\n\nKann man sich schnell vorstellen, wir haben 80000000 Bürger. Ich sag mal, davon ist vielleicht 1000000 maximal, die aus einem Land stammt und ursprünglich eine andere Schrift angewendet hat, Namen und andere Daten zu bezeichnen. Da ist es in vielen Fällen sinnvoller und auch ausreichend, da durchaus auf das lateinische Schriftsystem abzubilden und da gibt's auch klare Regeln. Allerdings, auch hier ist das Problem, da haben sich über die Zeit eben verschiedene Regelwerke entwickelt. Und da ist es dann sinnvoll, mal zu gucken, welches Regelwerk denn das Verbreitetste ist, was auch zum Beispiel in der Wirtschaft angewendet wird oder was eben auch in anderen Fällen angewendet wird, wo Zusammentreffen von Schriftsystemen stattfinden, zum Beispiel im Luftverkehr.\n\nUnd dann zu sagen, ja, wir nehmen dann 1 dieser Systeme, die schon stark und breit eingeführt sind, weil man dann auch davon ausgehen kann, was schon stark und breit eingeführt ist, ist auch schon oft ausprobiert worden und da haben hoffentlich auch schon andere Leute etwaige Fehler vorher gefunden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mhm. Es wird hoffentlich weiterentwickelt. Also ist bei Schriftzeichen jetzt vielleicht nicht so zentral der Punkt, aber bei technischen Fragen natürlich ganz wichtig. Also je intensiver et cetera ist parigos, aber je intensiver ein Standard genutzt wird, desto eher wird er auch weiterentwickelt mit der entsprechenden Community dahinter.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sprechen wir über ein anderes Thema, nämlich Metadaten. Ja, so bislang haben wir über die Datensätze selber gesprochen. Metadaten sind noch mal 'n bisschen was anderes. Wir kennen das im Alltag, wenn wir zum Beispiel unsere digitale Fotosammlung verschlagworten, ja, die Fotodaten, die ich aus meinem Urlaub gemacht hab und mitbringe, das sind die Bilddaten und das, was ich als Schlagwort dahinter packe, nämlich Urlaub 20 24, das sind die Metadaten. Welche Metadaten spielen beim Austausch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung eine Rolle und wo müssen die standardisiert werden?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also ganz offensichtlich wird es bei so etwas wie Open Data Plattformen, wo man ein ein breites Spektrum von unterschiedlichsten Daten hat und dann erst mal verstehen muss, was das für Daten denn sind, die da gespeichert worden sind. Aber grundsätzlich ist es natürlich immer wichtig, nur bei Registerdaten ist der der Granularitätsgrad so fein, dass ich die Metadaten sowieso schon wissen muss, damit arbeiten zu können. Aber so bei der Open Data Plattform, wie schon gesagt, da da wird's offensichtlich, dass ich erst mal wissen muss, was wird denn da überhaupt beschrieben und in welcher Form? Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also die Einigung darüber, was für Daten wollen wir hier eigentlich abfragen, an welchen Stellen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also das Stichwort ist hier auch vor allen Dingen Open Data, Open in dem Sinne auch, dass ich ja nicht weiß, wer ist der Nutzer der Daten? Und insofern, je weniger ich über den Nutzer meiner Daten weiß und je weniger ich mit dem auch schon in Kontakt getreten bin und in Kontakt treten werde, desto mehr muss ich meine Daten beschreiben, damit sie für den Nutzer der Daten, die Nutzerin der Daten auch hinterher von Wert sein können.\n\nSpeaker 1: Was übrigens überhaupt nicht trivial ist. Das fängt ja schon bei disziplinären Grenzen an. In in Paper bin ich wieder über Datensatz gestolpert, das unterschiedliche Verständnis von Datensatz. Für die Informatikerin ist es der eine Eintrag. Ach ja.\n\nFür mich ist es tendenziell eher die Sammlung von Ich will auf Diffulierung hineinkommen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Wir haben's aber wir haben's aber im Papier durchaus definiert.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ja, voll warm, klar.\n\nSpeaker 2: Aber aber auch ja, der Begriff des Datensatzes ist tatsächlich auch innerhalb der Informatikerdisziplin was, worauf man sich jedes Mal wieder einigen muss. Entweder ist der Datensatz die ganze Datei, die ganzen zum Beispiel Wasserstände, die ich über die letzten 50 Jahre an 1 Messstelle in einem Fluss gesammelt habe oder es ist halt genau die eine Aussage, den Wasserstand, den ich heute Morgen 8 Uhr 23 dort gemessen habe. Also selbst bei den Fachleuten ist es mit den Datenstandards nicht immer ganz trivial.\n\nSpeaker 0: Gut, also ich nehm mit, Informatiker*innen müssen ihre Gespräche standardisieren, sonst gibt's ja ganz schnell Streit und Missverständnis.\n\nSpeaker 1: Noch schlimmer wird, wenn man mit Ihnen spricht. Ja, also das ist das ist\n\nSpeaker 2: wenn man mit Ihnen spricht. Ja, also das ist das ist\n\nSpeaker 1: in den Ja,\n\nSpeaker 2: also mit ihren Perspektive. Beliebtes Beispiel ist auch das Wort Schnittstelle. Das benutzen wir ja ganz viel und auch wenn wir hier über Datenkommunikation, Datenübertragung, Datenaustausch reden, da ist es ja immer die Schnittstelle, über die die Daten hinweg müssen. Wenn man mit 'nem E-Tech über eine Schnittstelle spricht, dann hat der in der Regel 'n physischen Stecker und eine Steckdose im Kopf. Oder eine Mikrofonbuchse und das Kabel mit dem entsprechenden Stecker dazu.\n\nDa muss man sich auch erst mal drüber einigen, worüber wir jetzt hier grade reden. Und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den bei den datenbezogenen Standards. Da haben wir zwar eine gemeinsame Vorstellung, was die Schnittstelle ist, aber da haben wir auch 'n großes Spektrum der vertikalen Unterteilung. Genau wie vorhin schon angesprochen, die Daten sind eventuell in dem einen oder in dem anderen Schriftsystem abgelegt. Wenn wir jetzt 'n Schritt weitergehen, gucken wir uns Anja, welche Bedeutung, welche Semantik haben die Daten an der Stelle?\n\nWas ist damit gemeint? Die Sprache spielt eine Rolle, die ja auch oberhalb des Schriftsystems noch sitzt. Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die zum Beispiel das chyralische Schriftsystem benutzen. Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die das lateinische Schriftsystem benutzen. Und unten drunter landen ja keine lateinischen Buchstaben irgendwo in Computern, sondern das sind irgendwelche Bitwerte.\n\nDa brauchen wir auch wieder eine Abbildung. Und auch diese Strukturierung brauchen wir bei den datenbezogenen Standards, eben genau nicht so von unten sich anzugucken, wir haben die Festplatte. Wie ist die Festplatte denn physisch aufgebaut? Bis hoch, in welcher Sprache sind die Daten denn überhaupt sinnvoll interpretierbar?\n\nSpeaker 0: Also 'n komplexes Thema, das merke ich schon. Man kann sich da auch verlieren in der Tiefe. Bevor wir das jetzt machen, lasst uns noch mal einen anderen Aspekt anschauen. Wir haben jetzt ja bislang über den Austausch von Daten gesprochen. Das ist eine.\n\nEs geht aber auch Datensicherheit, wenn wir über Standard sprechen. Wie welche Rolle spielt Datensicherheit bei diesen Standards?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also wir brauchen Sicherheitsstandards für die Daten, weil erwiesenermaßen Sicherheit immer nur so gut ist wie das schwächste Glied in der Kette. Und das gilt halt auch für die Daten. Wenn ich 'n Verfahren habe, wo Daten über verschiedene Stellen womöglich über verschiedene Behörden fließen, brauch ich Sicherheitsstandards, die von allen beteiligten Stellen eingehalten werden, ein minimales Sicherheitsniveau der Daten sicherstellen zu können. Ganz klar, wenn ich Daten beispielsweise zwischen 3 Behörden auszutauschen habe, 2 Behörden davon verschlüsseln die Kommunikation zwischen sich. Die dritte Behörde unterstützt nicht die gleiche Verschlüsselung wie eine der beiden anderen und sagt, oh, oh, bei mir fließen dann, weiß nicht anders, geht die Daten unverschlüsselt über die Leitung?\n\nJa, wenn dann 1 halt auf der Leitung draufsitzt und die Daten mithört, dann hat er alle Daten mitgehört, weil ja die Daten sozusagen über alle Behörden hinwegfließen und demgemäß die gleiche Datengrundlage dort an allen 3 Stellen übertragen wird. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also da wird auch noch mal deutlich, wie wichtig da eben auch gemeinsame Standards sind an der Stelle. In der Medienberichterstattung in den letzten Jahren, da ist uns das begegnet, das Thema vielleicht bei dem bei der elektronischen Patientenakte. Da kam nämlich plötzlich die Diskussion auf, ne, sollte nicht hier die Blockchain eine größere Rolle spielen, also\n\nSpeaker 1: man so von, Kryptowährung ist ja\n\nSpeaker 0: auch 'n Standard, Blockchain, einfach Gesundheitsdaten, die sehr, sehr sensibel sind, zu verschlüsseln. Ist das 'n Standard, der uns in Zukunft hier auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung öfters begegnen wird?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also Verschlüsselung sicherlich. Bei der Blockchain bin ich mir weniger sicher, ob die Zukunft nicht eine große Rolle spielen wird. Da wird dann der Lage längst auch gerne in diesen Diskussionen so ein bisschen was zusammengewürfelt. Also so ein ja letztlich monolithisches Angebot wie die elektronische Patientenakte, die sicher zu machen, brauche ich nicht unbedingt ein dezentrales System wie die Blockchain. Also vernünftige Verschlüsselungsstandards würden da vollkommen reichen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Und vor allen Dingen, die Blockchain ist an sich eher 'n offenes System, weil ich kann zwar in der Blockchain die Daten verschlüsseln, aber die Blockchain ist in erster Linie dazu gedacht, Daten nachvollziehbar irgendwo ablegen zu können. Also überprüfen zu können, dass die Daten als solche korrekt sind.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dass sie nicht manipuliert wurden zum Beispiel.\n\nSpeaker 2: Dass vor allen Dingen auch Metadaten über Daten nicht manipuliert worden sind. Also zum Beispiel ein Transaktionszeitpunkt oder ein Betrag, das ist der wesentliche Ansatz der Blockchain. Verschlüsselung, wie gesagt, kann man in der Blockchain machen, aber kann man auch überall woanders machen und die Blockchain als solche bietet in Sachen Verschlüsselung keine besonderen Vorteile. Die Verschlüsselungsarten, die Verschlüsselungsalgorithmen sind unabhängig davon, ob ich das in 'nem Speicher, in 'ner Datenbank oder in 'ner Blockchain mache.\n\nSpeaker 0: Kommen wir zum letzten Punkt eurer Publikation, da habt ihr nämlich auch die Frage aufgeworfen nach einem ethischen Umgang mit Daten. Fand ich spannend, was meint ihr damit?\n\nSpeaker 2: Gut, wir kennen's wir kennen's eigentlich alle von 'ner Datenschutzgrundverordnung, die ja inzwischen auch, von der jeder Bürger auch inzwischen schon mal zumindest was gehört hat oder dem Bundesdatenschutzgesetz, was das ja eigentlich abbildet. Wir dürfen nicht alle Daten für alle beliebigen Zwecke verwenden. Wir dürfen Daten nicht beliebig kombinieren. Der Bürger, die Bürgerin hat ein Recht auf Privatsphäre, auf Geheimnisse. Und wir dürfen eben halt auch nicht die technischen Mittel, die wir heute zum Teil haben und die erschreckende Möglichkeiten bieten, Daten zusammenzuführen und daraus Rückschlüsse über Personen zu ziehen, in ihrer vollen Breite für diese Zwecke nutzen.\n\nUnd da brauchen wir ethische Standards, die uns da auch Grenzen setzen. Genauso wie wir ethische Standards dafür brauchen, auf welche Art und Weise wir bestimmte Daten überhaupt gewinnen dürfen. Was ist eine zulässige Art, Daten überhaupt in die Hand zu bekommen? Also wir wissen alle, dass zum Beispiel ja in anderen Regimen Daten durch Folter gewonnen werden. Ist ganz klar, dafür brauchen wir in Deutschland nicht irgendwie noch 'n extra Papier, 'n extra Standard, den sich Deutschland setzt.\n\nAber es gibt eben halt auch Abstufungen und Grenzbereiche und auch da müssen wir uns Regeln setzen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Wir haben heute in diesem Podcast ja doch eine ziemliche Fahrt gemacht durch verschiedene Aspekte datenbezogener Standards. Lasst uns jetzt am Schluss mal zusammenfassen, was macht jetzt wirklich einen guten datenbezogenen Standard aus? Also was sozusagen kommt alles in die Rührschüssel für unseren damit so einen Standardkuchen, wenn ich den mal so nennen\n\nSpeaker 1: Da kann man uns gegenseitig die Zutaten zuschmeißen, ne? Er wird eingehalten hoffentlich, fang ich mit an.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, und er ist umfassend für einen gut beschriebenen Anwendungsfall, aber er bietet auch Flexibilität, weil wir wissen alle, Anwendungsfälle auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung entwickeln sich weiter. Das heißt, 'n Standard, der zu stark sich fokussiert auf das Hier und Heute, der kann eben in 5 Jahren schon völlig unbrauchbar geworden sein, weil ihn die Technik überholt hat, weil ihn Rechtsprechung überholt hat oder weil ihn halt gesellschaftliche Bedürfnisse überholt haben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das heißt, der wird akzeptiert, der ist flexibel?\n\nSpeaker 1: Entsprechend passend dazu weiterentwickelt, laufend. Zum Beispiel, ja, hast Du eigentlich ja schon gesagt an technische Entwicklung oder gesellschaftliche Bedarfe angepasst. Ein auch ganz wichtiger Aspekt, der jetzt nicht so zentral ist, aber dann in der Umsetzung, glaube ich, einiges an Bedeutung gewinnt, der muss vielleicht zugänglich sein. Ich muss gut rankommen können. Da gibt es ja unterschiedliche Modelle, auch der Standard setzenden Gremien, ob er frei im Sinne auch von kostenlos auffindbar ist oder halt eben bezahlt werden muss, was dann weder gerade für kleine Kommunen, mit denen wir heute angefangen haben, durchaus eine Zugangsbarriere sein kann.\n\nAlso auch dafür braucht's dann Lösungen, damit auch alle, die den Standard einhalten sollen, ihn auch Problemus kriegen können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Man merkt schon, wenn wir jetzt so diskutieren, wenn ich euch auch bei der Diskussion zuhöre, das\n\nSpeaker 1: ist 'n Thema für Expert*innen. Jetzt haben wir vielleicht\n\nSpeaker 0: Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist Jetzt haben wir vielleicht Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist 'n ganz schöner Brocken in meiner kleinen Kommune, in meiner Behörde. Wer hilft denn bei der Implementierung von datenbezogenen Standards, wenn man selbst nicht weiter weiß?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also üblicherweise, wenn's die Implementierung technischer Standards geht, wenn's die Implementierung von Sicherheitsstandards geht, da bedient man sich ja 1 Dienstleisters. Und da verstärkt sich dann noch das Problem, was Mike eben angesprochen hat, der Zugänglichkeit von Standards. Also grade wenn es zum Beispiel Normen geht und ich hab eine kleine Behörde, da ließe sich noch relativ gut vorstellen, dass die Behördenmitarbeiter vielleicht über einen geschlossenen Behördenzugang auf Normen auch zugreifen können. Aber ob der kleine Dienstleister dann noch die Normen in der Breite verfügbar hat, die durchaus sone Investition bedeuten können, wenn man sich 'n breiteren Überblick über Normen verschaffen möchte, das ist dann schon sehr fraglich. Das heißt, da muss eigentlich auch die entsprechende Kompetenz und die Vorarbeit teilweise in die Behörde vorverlagert werden, sodass die Behörden in die Lage versetzt werden, zu sagen, hier, diese Standards sind jetzt erforderlich.\n\nUnd nur die, lieber Dienstleister, die musst Du dir dann beschaffen, wenn Du für uns da eine entsprechende Realisierung in technischer Art und Weise machst.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das heißt, es braucht mehr Kompetenz auch in den Behörden, in den Verwaltungen. Ja, habt ihr dann noch zum Schluss eine konkrete Handlungsempfehlung? Also sich Kompetenz reinholen, das ist das eine. Maik, was gibt's noch auf der Agenda?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, ich denke, dass einiges an dieser Kompetenzarbeit auch durchaus zusammengefasst werden könnte. Es gibt ja auch Institutionen, die sich intensiv mit enormen Standardisierungen der öffentlichen Verwaltung auseinandersetzen. Deren Serviceangebot könnte vielleicht noch breiter sein und sich ja auch an kleinere Kommunen zum Beispiel richten.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, also wir brauchen definitiv Lotsenfunktionen. Wir brauchen Lotsenfunktionen durch die existierenden Standards. Und wir brauchen auch Lotsenfunktionen in dem Fall, dass 'n neuer Standard geschaffen werden muss. Dass eben auch Fehler, die größere Organisationen schon nicht mehr machen, weil sie gelernt haben, wie man's besser machen sollte, nicht von kleineren Organisationen dann einige Jahre verzögert erneut gemacht werden, weil dort eben das Wissen nicht vorhanden ist. Also wir brauchen sehr viel mehr Lotsenunterstützung, einerseits interbehördlich\n\nSpeaker 1: und\n\nSpeaker 2: andererseits brauchen wir halt auch für die Dienstleister, aber auch für diejenigen, die mit der öffentlichen Verwaltung zusammenarbeiten müssen. Wir hatten vorhin das Beispiel x Rechnung, wo ja die Umsetzung im Prinzip von jeder Firma in irgend 'ner Form verfügbar sein muss, die jetzt eine Rechnung an die öffentliche Hand stellt. Wir brauchen auch für diese kleinen Firmen, die dann die Öffentlichkeit, die Wirtschaft unterstützen, mit der öffentlichen Hand kommunizieren, interagieren zu können, da brauchen wir auch Lotsenfunktionen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Datenbezogene Standards und warum sie in der öffentlichen Verwaltung wichtig sind. Das war restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums Öffentlicher IT. Vielen Dank an Gabriele Goldacker und Doktor Mike Weber für das Gespräch. Schön, dass ihr hier wart.\n\nSpeaker 1: Sehr gerne.\n\nSpeaker 2: Dankeschön.\n\nSpeaker 0: Die passende Publikation, die gibt's wieder online unter öfid Punkt d e. Öfid mit o e und schaut auch gern mal in den Shownotes, da haben wir sie nämlich für euch verlinkt. Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, empfehlt uns gerne weiter und folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und überall, wo es Podcast gibt. Danke fürs Zuhören. Am Mikrofon verabschiedet sich Philipp 1.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Stell dir mal vor, Du möchtest dein Smartphone mit einem anderen Gerät verbinden, mit 'nem Bluetooth Lautsprecher zum Beispiel.", "start": 1.52, "end": 7.7 }, { "text": "Damit diese Verbindung reibungslos funktioniert, müssen beide Geräte denselben Standard verwenden.", "start": 8.16, "end": 13.38 }, { "text": "Der legt nämlich fest, wie die Kommunikation zwischen den Geräten abläuft, welche Frequenzen verwendet und wie die Daten übertragen werden.", "start": 13.825, "end": 20.564999 }, { "text": "Wenn sowohl dein Smartphone als auch der Lautsprecher den Bluetooth Standard unterstützen, dann können Sie problemlos miteinander kommunizieren.", "start": 21.185, "end": 28.085 }, { "text": "Wenn nicht, dann ist die Party auch ganz schnell wieder vorbei.", "start": 28.84, "end": 31.58 } ], "start": 1.52, "end": 31.58, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Auch in", "start": 32.6, "end": 32.920002 } ], "start": 32.6, "end": 32.920002, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "der öffentlichen Verwaltung spielen datenbezogene Standards eine Rolle.", "start": 32.920002, "end": 36.86 }, { "text": "Nehmen wir mal Bürger*innendaten, den Personalausweis, die Geburtsurkunde oder auch Steuerinformationen.", "start": 37.4, "end": 42.54 }, { "text": "Mit einem einheitlichen Datenformat für alle Behörden lassen sich Informationen nahtlos austauschen.", "start": 43.625, "end": 48.844997 }, { "text": "Das erleichtert die Zusammenarbeit und verhindert Fehler, die unterschiedliche Formate verursachen könnten.", "start": 49.785, "end": 55.004997 }, { "text": "Es gibt aber auch noch weitere Gründe, sich mit datenbezogenen Standards zu befassen und welche genau das sind, das erfahrt ihr heute in diesem Podcast.", "start": 55.56, "end": 63.260002 } ], "start": 32.920002, "end": 63.260002, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Herzlich willkommen zurück aus der Sommerpause hier beim öfit Podcast, restart digital, eine Produktion des Fraunhofer Instituts für offene Kommunikationssysteme.", "start": 72.425, "end": 80.285 }, { "text": "Mein Name ist Philipp 1 und ich freue mich auf meine beiden Co Hosts.", "start": 81.385, "end": 85.005005 }, { "text": "Das ist zum einen Gabriele Goldacker.", "start": 85.23, "end": 87.090004 }, { "text": "Sie ist als Informatikerin, wissenschaftliche Mitarbeiterin am Kompetenzzentrum öffentlicher IT und Co Autorin 1 Publikation zum Thema datenbezogene Standards.", "start": 87.55, "end": 97.41 }, { "text": "Moin Gabriele, schön, dass Du dir Hallo Philipp.", "start": 97.47, "end": 99.255 } ], "start": 72.425, "end": 99.255, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und ja, Stammgast wie immer eigentlich auch hier vor Ort bei uns im Studio in Berlin Tegel, Doktor Mike Weber.", "start": 100.215, "end": 105.515 }, { "text": "Er ist Trendforscher und stellvertretender Leiter des öfid.", "start": 105.655, "end": 108.795 }, { "text": "Hallo Mike, schön, dass Du hergefunden hast durch den Verkehrsdschungel nach Tegel.", "start": 108.935, "end": 113.32 } ], "start": 100.215, "end": 113.32, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hallo Philipp, ja, trotz BVG hab ichs geschafft.", "start": 113.62, "end": 116.04 } ], "start": 113.62, "end": 116.04, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, böse Zungen behaupten vielleicht, der einzige datenbezogene Standard in der öffentlichen Verwaltung ist das Fax, aber ganz so ist es ja nicht.", "start": 117.3, "end": 124.9 }, { "text": "Auch digitale Standards sind bei Behörden wichtig.", "start": 124.9, "end": 127.16 }, { "text": "Ein Beispiel habe ich ja gerade schon genannt.", "start": 127.385, "end": 129.885 }, { "text": "Lasst uns aber gern noch mal auf andere Beispiele kommen.", "start": 130.345, "end": 132.905 }, { "text": "Welche Anwendungsfälle kommen euch noch in den Sinn für datenbezogene Standards in der öffentlichen Verwaltung, Abrede?", "start": 132.905, "end": 138.205 } ], "start": 117.3, "end": 138.205, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Es gibt unendlich viele Anwendungsfälle, weil ganz viel, was die öffentliche Verwaltung tut, ist, mit Daten zu arbeiten.", "start": 138.665, "end": 146.5 }, { "text": "Und in dem Moment, wo irgendwo Daten zwischen verschiedenen Stellen hin- und herfließen müssen, hin- und hergeschoben werden müssen oder auch wo Daten in die Öffentlichkeit gebracht werden müssen, braucht man dafür irgendwelche Standards.", "start": 147.44, "end": 163.095 }, { "text": "Früher waren's eben halt Papierformate, wie irgendwelche Tabellen auf Papier dargestellt zu werden haben.", "start": 163.875, "end": 171.54 }, { "text": "Wir kennen's alle von unseren Steuerbescheiden.", "start": 171.54, "end": 173.4 }, { "text": "Auch dahinter steckt 'n Standard.", "start": 173.7, "end": 175.48 } ], "start": 138.665, "end": 175.48, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja und wenn man's ganz einfach denkt, fängt ja wahrscheinlich schon bei 'ner Textverwaltung an, oder?", "start": 176.74, "end": 180.58 }, { "text": "Ich meine, wenn die eine Behörde Microsoft Word arbeitet und die andere beispielsweise mit Open Office, 2 verschiedene Dateiformate, dann wird's plötzlich schwierig, da verschiedene Dokumente zu öffnen, oder?", "start": 180.58, "end": 190.635 } ], "start": 176.74, "end": 190.635, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das ist ja ein geradezu legendäres Beispiel für die Schwierigkeiten von Standardisierung, in die von Textformaten.", "start": 191.895, "end": 198.56999 }, { "text": "Ja, in der Tat.", "start": 199.34999, "end": 200.40999 }, { "text": "Also wenn man noch Open Office Formate findet irgendwo in der Verwaltung, dann hat man da zumindest bei Sonderfunktionen sehr gerne irgendwelche Übersetzungsprobleme, die dann zu Buchstabensalat führen können.", "start": 200.70999, "end": 212.56999 } ], "start": 191.895, "end": 212.56999, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Was hilft denn nun aber, sich da zu einigen auf Standards?", "start": 214.035, "end": 216.695 }, { "text": "Also jetzt bei mir im Team Podcaststudio, da ist das relativ einfach.", "start": 217.395, "end": 220.675 }, { "text": "Wir sind ja nun gerade mal 10 Leute und dazu sagen, ja, wir arbeiten alle mit Open Office, da kriegen wir uns schon geeinigt.", "start": 220.675, "end": 225.815 }, { "text": "Wenn aber Behörden in verschiedenen Kommunen, in verschiedenen Städten, so vor sich hin wurschteln, wie kommt man da zu gemeinsam Standards?", "start": 226.28, "end": 233.01999 } ], "start": 214.035, "end": 233.01999, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das Beschließen 1 einzelnen Standards für alle ist in der Tat, je größer das Kongruat wird, immer schwieriger.", "start": 235.64, "end": 242.155 }, { "text": "Die Krux ist es dann, sich auf die Mindestvoraussetzungen zu einigen, also zum Beispiel einheitliche Datenstandards, die dann auszutauschen, einheitliche Standards für die Übermittlung der Daten und dann möglicherweise in den einzelnen Anwendungen dann eventuell tatsächlich dann mit anderen Datenformaten zu arbeiten.", "start": 243.335, "end": 260.57 }, { "text": "Aber auf jeden Fall immer dann, wenn Daten übertragen werden, ist es essenziell.", "start": 260.57, "end": 263.79 } ], "start": 235.64, "end": 263.79, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gabriel, hast Du da Erfahrung, wie kann man Daten standardisieren, auch zwischen Kommunen?", "start": 265.69, "end": 269.95 } ], "start": 265.69, "end": 269.95, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wie es zwischen Kommunen funktionieren könnte, da hab ich schon Ideen, aber oft läuft's anders.", "start": 271.445, "end": 278.58502 }, { "text": "Wäre also eigentlich wünschenswert, wenn die eine Kommune feststellt, ich brauch jetzt irgendwie 'n neues Format.", "start": 278.965, "end": 285.72 }, { "text": "Ich muss jetzt die Hunde in der Kommune erfassen, unabhängig von der Hundesteuer nach der Art des Hundes zum Beispiel und das hat ja schon eine andere Kommune gemacht, hinzugehen und zu sagen, wie macht 'n ihr das?", "start": 286.02002, "end": 299.145 }, { "text": "Wie erfasst er das?", "start": 299.22498, "end": 300.26498 }, { "text": "Wie codiert er das?", "start": 300.26498, "end": 301.645 } ], "start": 271.445, "end": 301.645, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So funktioniert's leider oft nicht, sondern da geht dann jeder so los.", "start": 301.945, "end": 309.085 }, { "text": "In der Regel macht das ja auch nicht 'n Kommunalmitarbeiter, sondern da hat man 'n Dienstleister dafür, je kleiner die Kommune auch oft, je kleiner der Dienstleister und der macht dann.", "start": 309.705, "end": 320.72 }, { "text": "Und dann wird's eben eher kein Standard.", "start": 321.34, "end": 324.0 }, { "text": "Und wenn man dann feststellt, okay, wir wollen jetzt irgendwelche bundesweiten Register aufsetzen oder bundesweite Abfragen aufsetzen, dann stellt man fest, okay, es funktioniert nicht miteinander.", "start": 324.445, "end": 337.505 }, { "text": "Dann gibt es Gremien, die etabliert werden, zum Beispiel der IT Planungsrat, die dann versuchen, genau solche Probleme zu lösen, indem Arbeitsgruppen gebildet werden, die dann beauftragt werden, entsprechende Standards zu schaffen.", "start": 338.81998, "end": 355.345 } ], "start": 301.945, "end": 355.345, "num_words": 108.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Was nicht unbedingt heißt, dass der Standard dann auch in der Kommune oder im Land tatsächlich an allen Stellen eingesetzt wird, sondern man passt sich dann für die Datenübertragung, die Datenkommunikation, den Datenaustausch an, den gemeinsamen Standard an.", "start": 355.345, "end": 375.58002 }, { "text": "Was hinten stattfindet im Speicher innerhalb der Kommune, ist davon im Prinzip unabhängig und bleibt auch oft so.", "start": 375.58002, "end": 382.935 } ], "start": 355.345, "end": 382.935, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 383.635, "end": 383.795 }, { "text": "Ja, Hundesteuer ist vielleicht 'n gutes Beispiel, ne?", "start": 383.795, "end": 385.635 }, { "text": "Die eine Kommune fragt alle Handdaten ab, die andere nur 2 oder 3, da muss das aber irgendwie zusammengewurschtelt werden.", "start": 385.635, "end": 391.65 }, { "text": "Auf dem Komplexitätslevel kann ich mir noch vorstellen, dass man sich einigt, aber es gibt sicherlich noch Beispiele, wo es denn komplizierter wird.", "start": 392.13, "end": 398.29 }, { "text": "Wo gibt's denn den größten Verbesserungsbedarf beim Austausch von Daten?", "start": 398.29, "end": 402.47 } ], "start": 383.635, "end": 402.47, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Jetzt ganz konkret, wenn wir uns mal angucken, die ganzen Probleme und die Daten, die wir von Kommunen erfasst werden.", "start": 403.49, "end": 408.405 } ], "start": 403.49, "end": 408.405, "num_words": 20.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Den größten Verbesserungsbedarf gibt es bei dem, was uns jetzt bevorsteht.", "start": 409.825, "end": 415.605 }, { "text": "Dieses sogenannte Gateway Gateway, wo nicht nur für Firmen, wo wir das ja im Prinzip schon haben, sondern für jeden Bürger in der EU die Möglichkeit bestehen soll, Dienstleistungen auch Nationalitätsgrenzen überschreitend in Anspruch zu nehmen.", "start": 417.11002, "end": 435.645 }, { "text": "Und wir haben zusätzlich den Anspruch, dass nicht mehr jeder Bürger, wenn er zum Amt geht oder eben auch digital zum Amt geht, erst mal seine Dokumente, die Geburtsurkunde, die Meldebescheinigung scannt und entsprechend bei der virtuellen oder auch physischen Behörde vorlegt, sondern dass wir das alles aus den Registern rausholen, wo die Daten ja vorhanden sind.", "start": 435.645, "end": 461.11002 }, { "text": "Und jede Behörde, die sie dann auch braucht, auf aktuelle und korrekte Daten zugreifen kann.", "start": 461.875, "end": 468.835 }, { "text": "Und zwar eben auch nicht, indem erst mal 'n Antrag gestellt wird und die Daten muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen", "start": 468.835, "end": 482.68713 } ], "start": 409.825, "end": 482.68713, "num_words": 143.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "zum Amt?", "start": 483.04178, "end": 484.39642 }, { "text": "Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon.", "start": 484.75107, "end": 487.815 }, { "text": "Muss ich die jetzt noch mal zur Behörde mitbringen zum Amt?", "start": 487.975, "end": 490.45502 }, { "text": "Da liegt's doch eigentlich schon.", "start": 490.45502, "end": 491.915 }, { "text": "Und so könnte sich das dann noch austauschen lassen, wenn man umzieht zum Beispiel wahrscheinlich, ne?", "start": 491.975, "end": 495.515 } ], "start": 483.04178, "end": 495.515, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau, das das das sollte heute eigentlich schon überhaupt gar kein Problem mehr sein.", "start": 495.575, "end": 500.475 }, { "text": "Aber da sind wir leider an vielen Stellen noch nicht so weit.", "start": 501.175, "end": 507.56 } ], "start": 495.575, "end": 507.56, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wann könnte es so weit sein?", "start": 507.78, "end": 509.16 } ], "start": 507.78, "end": 509.16, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mit Zukunftsfragen kommen wir da zu mir.", "start": 513.14, "end": 515.0 } ], "start": 513.14, "end": 515.0, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Du bist doch Zukunftsforscher, dachte ich.", "start": 515.7, "end": 517.335 }, { "text": "Ich.", "start": 517.335, "end": 517.835 } ], "start": 515.7, "end": 517.835, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, mir die Jahreszahlen sind wir immer sehr geizig.", "start": 517.895, "end": 520.715 }, { "text": "Na ja, wir haben ja so einige Entwicklungen, die genau darauf einzahlen sollen.", "start": 521.655, "end": 525.015 }, { "text": "Stichwort Registermodernisierung, wo halt genau diese Register so aufgestellt werden sollen, dass dieser Datenaustausch funktionieren kann.", "start": 525.015, "end": 531.35504 }, { "text": "Stichwort on the only, dass tatsächlich auch aus den Registern die Daten gezogen werden können, wenn sie denn gebraucht werden.", "start": 531.56, "end": 537.74 }, { "text": "Das sind alles riesige Vorhaben, die sicherlich noch, na, soll ich mich jetzt zu 'ner Jahreszeit hinreißen lassen, sicherlich noch 15 Jahre dauern werden, bevor sie wirklich Früchte tragen.", "start": 538.51996, "end": 549.525 } ], "start": 517.895, "end": 549.525, "num_words": 87.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und dann haben wir natürlich auch in jedem einzelnen Register und in jedem einzelnen Verfahren dann die Fragen, passen jetzt die Datenstandards alle zusammen?", "start": 550.385, "end": 558.965 }, { "text": "Also sprich, bis das dann alles ganz flüssig bis in den letzten Winkel funktioniert, kann das auch noch 'n bisschen länger dauern.", "start": 559.49, "end": 565.50995 } ], "start": 550.385, "end": 565.50995, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also sieht man auch, also technisch ist das ja sicherlich kein Hexenwerk und kein Zauber, aber eben diese Standards zu finden, daran hakt's dann eben doch und das braucht eben ganz offensichtlich Zeit.", "start": 566.61, "end": 575.985 }, { "text": "Bleiben wir aber beim Thema, Austausch von Daten innerhalb der EU, auch zwischen verschiedenen nationalen Behörden.", "start": 577.08496, "end": 583.885 }, { "text": "Ihr nennt selber ein Beispiel in eurer Publikation, nämlich x-Rechnung.", "start": 583.885, "end": 586.605 }, { "text": "Ich hab mich über das Beispiel gefreut, denn ich durfte auch schon Bekanntschaft mit x-Rechnung machen.", "start": 586.605, "end": 591.15 }, { "text": "Mal zur Erklärung, mit diesem Standard wird ja die Rechnungsstellung gegenüber Behörden EU weit standardisiert.", "start": 591.29004, "end": 596.75 } ], "start": 566.61, "end": 596.75, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, es gibt dann im Prinzip auch, wird ganz genau gesagt, hier kommt die Rechnungsnummer hin, da kommt der Betrachten hin, da die Beschreibung und so weiter.", "start": 597.21, "end": 603.95 }, { "text": "Aus eigener Erfahrung kann ich sagen, ja, x-Rechnung funktioniert, es erhöht aber auch entweder meinen Aufwand, ja, da ich 'n externes Tool für die Abrechnung brauche und da alles übertragen muss von meiner Buchhaltung in das externe Tool oder es wird auch teurer für mich, da sich meine Buchhaltung den Standard, meine eigene Buchhaltung mit 'nem Aufpreis bezahlen lässt.", "start": 604.385, "end": 625.93 }, { "text": "Wer profitiert denn nun eigentlich von dem Standard?", "start": 626.23004, "end": 628.07 }, { "text": "Ich offensichtlich nicht.", "start": 628.07, "end": 629.21 } ], "start": 597.21, "end": 629.21, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Langfristig vielleicht schon.", "start": 630.23004, "end": 631.69 }, { "text": "Nein, das ist ja ein ganz generelles Phänomen bei Standards.", "start": 631.99, "end": 634.135 }, { "text": "Also wir haben immer Deswegen kann es mitunter auch extrem schwierig sein, einen Standard zu setzen, weil immer natürlich diejenigen, die schon an den Standardkonform arbeiten, einen enormen Vorteil haben gegenüber denjenigen, die sich an dem Standard anpassen müssen.", "start": 634.135, "end": 647.195 }, { "text": "Das ist son gewisser Grundkonflikt in 'ner enormen Standardisierung.", "start": 647.37994, "end": 651.27997 }, { "text": "Die Hoffnung ist dann, wenn der Standard einmal durchgesetzt ist, dass jedes Buchhaltungsprogramm das dann automatisch ausspucken kann nach 'ner gewissen Übergangszeit.", "start": 652.01996, "end": 659.16 } ], "start": 630.23004, "end": 659.16, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Aber klar, in diesem Fall hast Du die Anpassungskosten.", "start": 659.69995, "end": 662.04 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 662.66, "end": 663.16 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 663.755, "end": 664.075 }, { "text": "Erst mal.", "start": 664.075, "end": 664.895 } ], "start": 659.69995, "end": 664.895, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Erst mal, ja.", "start": 665.115, "end": 666.255 }, { "text": "Gut, aber die Behörden, für die ist das natürlich schon auch eine Automatisierung und auch eine Vereinfachung, wenn sie nicht verschiedene Rechnungen jeweils bekommen, die dann immer komplett anders aussehen.", "start": 666.635, "end": 675.695 } ], "start": 665.115, "end": 675.695, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also sone klassische, womöglich noch handgeschriebene Rechnung auf sonem Quillungsformular, wie wir das so kennen, Postkartengröße, das konnte man früher nur durch 'n Menschen in ein System übertragen lassen.", "start": 675.755, "end": 690.51 }, { "text": "Da gab's gar keine anderen Möglichkeiten.", "start": 691.765, "end": 693.525 }, { "text": "Jetzt kommt die Rechnung ja nicht in Papierform und auch nicht in Pseudopapierform mehr bei der Behörde an, sondern das ist 'n Datensatz, der bei der Behörde ankommt.", "start": 693.525, "end": 704.88 }, { "text": "Und wenn da die Felder korrekt ausgefüllt sind, dann kann die Behörde das sofort in ihr System reinfließen lassen.", "start": 704.94, "end": 713.98 }, { "text": "Da guckt kein Mensch mehr überhaupt auf die Rechnung drauf Und bei dem X-Rechnungsstandard ist es auch gar nicht zwangsläufig vorgesehen, dass es da eine Möglichkeit gibt, dass auf die Rechnung, wie wir die so klassisch kennen, noch 'n Mensch draufguckt.", "start": 713.98, "end": 730.795 } ], "start": 675.755, "end": 730.795, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da braucht man hinterher erst wieder, wenn man es dann tun möchte, 'n Tool, was die Daten in ein für Menschen auswertbares Format übersetzt.", "start": 731.33, "end": 740.71 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 741.49, "end": 741.89 } ], "start": 731.33, "end": 741.89, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und das erspart uns dann einen Zwischenschritt, den man sonst ja zum Beispiel auch von Banking Apps kennt, dass man sich eine Rechnung abfotografiert und die dann automatisch das Überweisungsformular einträgt.", "start": 741.89, "end": 752.345 }, { "text": "Das ist im Grunde so ähnlich, also wird dann die Struktur ausgelesen aus dieser Rechnung, die ja meistens auch schon sehr strukturiert sind, sehr standardisiert sind.", "start": 752.565, "end": 760.02496 }, { "text": "Genau den Schritt und die damit verbundenen Fehlerquellen erspart man sich damit.", "start": 760.38995, "end": 764.25 } ], "start": 741.89, "end": 764.25, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Was was jede Behörde unbedingt haben wollen sollte, weil wir wissen alle, alle Behörden klagen darüber, dass sie nicht genug Mitarbeiter haben.", "start": 764.38995, "end": 774.045 } ], "start": 764.38995, "end": 774.045, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja und die kann man vielleicht sagen, na ja, es ist ja nur ein Zwischenschritt, den man hier vielleicht einspart, aber wenn man sich das hochrechnet, wenn man überlegt, wie viele Rechnungen jeden Tag so verschickt werden.", "start": 775.96497, "end": 783.165 }, { "text": "Ich weiß nicht, wie viele es sind, aber ich kann mir vorstellen, ist eine ganze Menge.", "start": 783.165, "end": 786.285 }, { "text": "Dann addiert sich das wahrscheinlich schon,", "start": 786.285, "end": 788.14496 } ], "start": 775.96497, "end": 788.14496, "num_words": 59.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "ne?", "start": 788.74005, "end": 789.24005 }, { "text": "Das sind enorme Zahlen.", "start": 789.46, "end": 791.64 } ], "start": 788.74005, "end": 791.64, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Jetzt könnte man natürlich sagen, na gut, also wenn das mit den Standards son Riesending ist, dann bräuchte man vielleicht so einen monumentalen Universalstandard, son riesiges Formular, wo für alle Fälle, die in der Verwaltung so betreffen, etwas geregelt ist.", "start": 792.58, "end": 805.745 }, { "text": "Nur sagt ihr aber in eurer Publikation, fand ich interessant, son Universalstandard, den braucht's gar nicht.", "start": 805.745, "end": 811.50494 }, { "text": "Den sollte es sogar gar nicht geben, sondern mehrere datenbezogene Standards.", "start": 811.50494, "end": 814.785 }, { "text": "Was meint ihr damit?", "start": 814.785, "end": 815.925 } ], "start": 792.58, "end": 815.925, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Könnte jetzt noch mal auf das Horrorszenario vom Microsoft Watch Standard zurückkommen.", "start": 816.85, "end": 820.70996 } ], "start": 816.85, "end": 820.70996, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Horrorszenario, die nicht.", "start": 821.32996, "end": 822.62994 } ], "start": 821.32996, "end": 822.62994, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wo genau das, allerdings auch mit bestimmten unternehmenspolitischen Hintergründen, aber wo genau das versucht worden ist, halt dieses Format in einen Standard zu pressen.", "start": 823.56995, "end": 833.055 }, { "text": "Ist auch in einem Standard gepresst worden, ich glaube 1000 Seiten oder so, irgendwie sowas in der Richtung und auch Microsoft hat das nicht geschafft damals, diesen Standard zu erfüllen.", "start": 833.055, "end": 841.395 }, { "text": "Also so ein Standard erreicht.", "start": 841.775, "end": 843.715 }, { "text": "Das ist ein Aspekt, warum das schwierig ist, er reicht sehr schnell eine enorme Komplexität, die kaum noch Herrn Papa ist.", "start": 843.91, "end": 849.77 } ], "start": 823.56995, "end": 849.77, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und in der Regel ist es auch gar nicht nötig, alles in einen Standard zu packen, weil meist lässt sich ein Fall doch ziemlich gut von 'nem anderen Fall abgrenzen und sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in diesem Fall.", "start": 850.07, "end": 866.32495 }, { "text": "Hier gibt's 'n Teil, der ist speziell in dem anderen Fall und dann gibt's 'n gemeinsamen Part.", "start": 866.38495, "end": 870.865 }, { "text": "Und da ist es am besten, wenn man für alle 3 Teile entweder 3 einzelne Standards hat, dann kann man nämlich auch flexibel damit umgehen.", "start": 870.865, "end": 881.25 }, { "text": "Könnte eben zum Beispiel auch noch 'n dritten Fall schaffen, der ähnlich zu dem gemeinsamen Teil passt, dann macht man nur noch 'n Zusatzstandard für den dritten Fall.", "start": 881.79, "end": 891.325 }, { "text": "Der benutzt dann auch das, was alle 3 gemeinsam benutzen.", "start": 891.325, "end": 894.865 } ], "start": 850.07, "end": 894.865, "num_words": 123.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da muss man nicht noch mal wieder sich abstimmen und völlig Neues entwickeln, wenn man einen riesigen Standard versuchen würde zu schaffen.", "start": 895.245, "end": 905.80005 }, { "text": "Das merkt man selber ganz schnell bei kleinen Dingen, die man versucht zu organisieren, da verliert man den Überblick.", "start": 906.58, "end": 913.96 }, { "text": "Und dann wird einem auch nicht mehr klar, okay, ich hab da an 1 Stelle auf den 500 Seiten was festgelegt, hat man dann, wenn man weiter hinten oder weiter vorne ist, schon vergessen.", "start": 915.095, "end": 927.115 }, { "text": "Fällt aber dann schlussendlich auf einen zurück, wenn es dann tatsächlich in Technik umgesetzt wird, jemand das alles verantwortungsvoll umsetzt in die Technik, die Festlegung, die da irgendwo in den 500 Seiten verborgen ist.", "start": 929.0, "end": 943.33997 }, { "text": "Und dann stellt man irgendwann fest, es funktioniert nicht mehr miteinander, weil zum Beispiel Festlegungen, die in einem viel zu großen Standard drin sind, sich gegenseitig auch durchaus widersprechen können.", "start": 943.605, "end": 954.745 } ], "start": 895.245, "end": 954.745, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hast Du 'n Beispiel, wo eigentlich verschiedene Standards sinnvoller sind als so ein riesiger Universal?", "start": 954.96497, "end": 959.31 } ], "start": 954.96497, "end": 959.31, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Na, ganz klar.", "start": 960.27, "end": 961.57 }, { "text": "Wir haben vorhin schon über Bluetooth gesprochen.", "start": 962.02997, "end": 965.17 }, { "text": "Es gibt ja x Möglichkeiten, Over the Air Daten auszutauschen.", "start": 965.79, "end": 970.37 }, { "text": "Wir haben WLAN, wir haben Mobilfunk, wir haben Richtfunk zum Beispiel, wir haben den Radiofunk.", "start": 970.83, "end": 980.225 }, { "text": "Da braucht's keinen gemeinsamen Standard.", "start": 982.125, "end": 984.545 } ], "start": 960.27, "end": 984.545, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die laufen schon mal auf verschiedenen Frequenzen.", "start": 985.58997, "end": 988.14996 }, { "text": "Dafür brauchen wir 'n Standard, der festlegt, wer auf welcher Frequenz arbeiten darf.", "start": 988.14996, "end": 993.05 }, { "text": "Und dann sind sie alle erst mal auf ihrer einzelnen Frequenz.", "start": 993.26996, "end": 997.11 }, { "text": "Und dann kommt hier auch noch die Technik ganz konkret zum Tragen, dass bestimmte Arten der Datenübertragung nicht auf allen Frequenzen gleichermaßen gut funktionieren.", "start": 997.11, "end": 1008.915 }, { "text": "Da wird es relativ offensichtlich, dass schon die Technik es begrenzt, 'n einheitlichen Standard einzusetzen.", "start": 1009.135, "end": 1016.77997 } ], "start": 985.58997, "end": 1016.77997, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und das würde auch nicht wirklich was nutzen, wenn man das alles in ein großes Standardgebäude reinpacken würde, sondern da hilft es ganz klar, eine Struktur zu haben, zu sagen, okay, hier gibt's 'n Frequenzbereich, der darf so und so genutzt werden.", "start": 1017.0, "end": 1032.245 }, { "text": "Ist jetzt bisschen weit weg von den Daten der öffentlichen Verwaltung, aber so ganz generell.", "start": 1032.625, "end": 1039.925 }, { "text": "Und in diesem Frequenzbereich, Da machen wir aber 'n ordentlichen Standard, der gut dazu passt und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den öffentlichen Daten.", "start": 1040.545, "end": 1050.1901 }, { "text": "Wir grenzen ganz klar ab.", "start": 1050.33, "end": 1052.43 }, { "text": "Wir sagen, okay, das ist unser Anwendungsfall, dafür brauchen wir jetzt 'n Standard.", "start": 1052.49, "end": 1058.03 } ], "start": 1017.0, "end": 1058.03, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Der Anwendungsfall grenzt an folgende anderen Anwendungsfälle an, aber da gibt's klare Unterschiede, klare Abgrenzung und es gibt Gemeinsamkeiten.", "start": 1059.025, "end": 1068.885 }, { "text": "Auf die Gemeinsamkeiten versuchen wir uns auch gemeinsam zu einigen, dafür 'n Standard zu schaffen und für das, was eben keine Abstimmung mit anderen bedarf, dafür schaffen wir uns jetzt 'n eigenen Standard für diesen Teil des Falles.", "start": 1069.665, "end": 1084.65 } ], "start": 1059.025, "end": 1084.65, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ein Beispiel habe ich gefunden in eurer Publikation, vielleicht passt das auch gerade hier ganz gut, nämlich was passiert eigentlich, wenn Daten von Bürger*innen, ja, zum Beispiel Namen einmal auf Lateinisch geschrieben werden oder in anderen Fall vielleicht auf Guerillisch.", "start": 1084.9249, "end": 1100.16 }, { "text": "Da haben wir ja völlig verschiedene Schreibweisen von Sprachen, ja, die müssen aber trotzdem irgendwie synchronisiert werden.", "start": 1100.16, "end": 1107.12 }, { "text": "Braucht's ja auch verschiedene Standards, die dann irgendwann wieder zusammentreffen?", "start": 1107.12, "end": 1110.98 } ], "start": 1084.9249, "end": 1110.98, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Definitiv brauchen wir da 'n Standard.", "start": 1112.155, "end": 1114.495 }, { "text": "Irgendwann ist in der deutschen Verwaltung alles in lateinischen Buchstaben abgebildet.", "start": 1114.715, "end": 1118.895 }, { "text": "Natürlich kann man jetzt rangehen und sagen, ja, aber wir haben doch in der EU, wir haben die griechische Schrift, wir haben die kyrillische Schrift in 'ner EU.", "start": 1119.755, "end": 1129.99 }, { "text": "Ja, die meisten EU Staaten benutzen die lateinische Schrift, aber die EU ist ja mehr als das.", "start": 1129.99, "end": 1136.805 }, { "text": "Nichtsdestotrotz wäre es auf der anderen Seite in vielen Fällen einfach viel zu aufwendig, jetzt sämtliche denkbaren Schriftarten, Schriftsätze in der deutschen Verwaltung, in den Speichern der deutschen Verwaltung abbilden zu können.", "start": 1137.8451, "end": 1156.52 } ], "start": 1112.155, "end": 1156.52, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Kann man sich schnell vorstellen, wir haben 80000000 Bürger.", "start": 1156.8201, "end": 1162.02 }, { "text": "Ich sag mal, davon ist vielleicht 1000000 maximal, die aus einem Land stammt und ursprünglich eine andere Schrift angewendet hat, Namen und andere Daten zu bezeichnen.", "start": 1162.02, "end": 1177.825 }, { "text": "Da ist es in vielen Fällen sinnvoller und auch ausreichend, da durchaus auf das lateinische Schriftsystem abzubilden und da gibt's auch klare Regeln.", "start": 1178.8701, "end": 1189.29 }, { "text": "Allerdings, auch hier ist das Problem, da haben sich über die Zeit eben verschiedene Regelwerke entwickelt.", "start": 1189.3501, "end": 1196.625 }, { "text": "Und da ist es dann sinnvoll, mal zu gucken, welches Regelwerk denn das Verbreitetste ist, was auch zum Beispiel in der Wirtschaft angewendet wird oder was eben auch in anderen Fällen angewendet wird, wo Zusammentreffen von Schriftsystemen stattfinden, zum Beispiel im Luftverkehr.", "start": 1197.485, "end": 1216.02 } ], "start": 1156.8201, "end": 1216.02, "num_words": 116.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und dann zu sagen, ja, wir nehmen dann 1 dieser Systeme, die schon stark und breit eingeführt sind, weil man dann auch davon ausgehen kann, was schon stark und breit eingeführt ist, ist auch schon oft ausprobiert worden und da haben hoffentlich auch schon andere Leute etwaige Fehler vorher gefunden.", "start": 1216.8, "end": 1236.305 } ], "start": 1216.8, "end": 1236.305, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1236.365, "end": 1236.865 }, { "text": "Es wird hoffentlich weiterentwickelt.", "start": 1237.24, "end": 1237.98 }, { "text": "Also ist bei Schriftzeichen jetzt vielleicht nicht so zentral der Punkt, aber bei technischen Fragen natürlich ganz wichtig.", "start": 1238.76, "end": 1244.2999 }, { "text": "Also je intensiver et cetera ist parigos, aber je intensiver ein Standard genutzt wird, desto eher wird er auch weiterentwickelt mit der entsprechenden Community dahinter.", "start": 1244.36, "end": 1253.345 } ], "start": 1236.365, "end": 1253.345, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sprechen wir über ein anderes Thema, nämlich Metadaten.", "start": 1255.325, "end": 1257.985 }, { "text": "Ja, so bislang haben wir über die Datensätze selber gesprochen.", "start": 1258.2849, "end": 1261.0249 }, { "text": "Metadaten sind noch mal 'n bisschen was anderes.", "start": 1262.0449, "end": 1264.0137 }, { "text": "Wir kennen das im Alltag, wenn wir zum Beispiel unsere digitale Fotosammlung verschlagworten, ja, die Fotodaten, die ich aus meinem Urlaub gemacht hab und mitbringe, das sind die Bilddaten und das, was ich als Schlagwort dahinter packe, nämlich Urlaub 20 24, das sind die Metadaten.", "start": 1264.0137, "end": 1278.045 }, { "text": "Welche Metadaten spielen beim Austausch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung eine Rolle und wo müssen die standardisiert werden?", "start": 1278.125, "end": 1283.425 } ], "start": 1255.325, "end": 1283.425, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also ganz offensichtlich wird es bei so etwas wie Open Data Plattformen, wo man ein ein breites Spektrum von unterschiedlichsten Daten hat und dann erst mal verstehen muss, was das für Daten denn sind, die da gespeichert worden sind.", "start": 1284.365, "end": 1297.7201 }, { "text": "Aber grundsätzlich ist es natürlich immer wichtig, nur bei Registerdaten ist der der Granularitätsgrad so fein, dass ich die Metadaten sowieso schon wissen muss, damit arbeiten zu können.", "start": 1298.9, "end": 1309.495 }, { "text": "Aber so bei der Open Data Plattform, wie schon gesagt, da da wird's offensichtlich, dass ich erst mal wissen muss, was wird denn da überhaupt beschrieben und in welcher Form?", "start": 1309.495, "end": 1315.595 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1316.375, "end": 1316.775 } ], "start": 1284.365, "end": 1316.775, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also die Einigung darüber, was für Daten wollen wir hier eigentlich abfragen, an welchen Stellen?", "start": 1316.775, "end": 1321.08 } ], "start": 1316.775, "end": 1321.08, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also das Stichwort ist hier auch vor allen Dingen Open Data, Open in dem Sinne auch, dass ich ja nicht weiß, wer ist der Nutzer der Daten?", "start": 1321.24, "end": 1330.22 }, { "text": "Und insofern, je weniger ich über den Nutzer meiner Daten weiß und je weniger ich mit dem auch schon in Kontakt getreten bin und in Kontakt treten werde, desto mehr muss ich meine Daten beschreiben, damit sie für den Nutzer der Daten, die Nutzerin der Daten auch hinterher von Wert sein können.", "start": 1330.9199, "end": 1356.02 } ], "start": 1321.24, "end": 1356.02, "num_words": 80.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Was übrigens überhaupt nicht trivial ist.", "start": 1357.76, "end": 1359.68 }, { "text": "Das fängt ja schon bei disziplinären Grenzen an.", "start": 1359.68, "end": 1361.76 }, { "text": "In in Paper bin ich wieder über Datensatz gestolpert, das unterschiedliche Verständnis von Datensatz.", "start": 1361.76, "end": 1366.1549 }, { "text": "Für die Informatikerin ist es der eine Eintrag.", "start": 1366.695, "end": 1369.195 }, { "text": "Ach ja.", "start": 1369.815, "end": 1369.8949 } ], "start": 1357.76, "end": 1369.8949, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Für mich ist es tendenziell eher die Sammlung von Ich will auf Diffulierung hineinkommen.", "start": 1369.8949, "end": 1374.1349 } ], "start": 1369.8949, "end": 1374.1349, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wir haben's aber wir haben's aber im Papier durchaus definiert.", "start": 1374.1349, "end": 1377.86 } ], "start": 1374.1349, "end": 1377.86, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, ja, voll warm, klar.", "start": 1377.86, "end": 1379.14 } ], "start": 1377.86, "end": 1379.14, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Aber aber auch ja, der Begriff des Datensatzes ist tatsächlich auch innerhalb der Informatikerdisziplin was, worauf man sich jedes Mal wieder einigen muss.", "start": 1379.14, "end": 1391.295 }, { "text": "Entweder ist der Datensatz die ganze Datei, die ganzen zum Beispiel Wasserstände, die ich über die letzten 50 Jahre an 1 Messstelle in einem Fluss gesammelt habe oder es ist halt genau die eine Aussage, den Wasserstand, den ich heute Morgen 8 Uhr 23 dort gemessen habe.", "start": 1391.295, "end": 1411.59 }, { "text": "Also selbst bei den Fachleuten ist es mit den Datenstandards nicht immer ganz trivial.", "start": 1412.77, "end": 1420.365 } ], "start": 1379.14, "end": 1420.365, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gut, also ich nehm mit, Informatiker*innen müssen ihre Gespräche standardisieren, sonst gibt's ja ganz schnell Streit und Missverständnis.", "start": 1421.065, "end": 1426.205 } ], "start": 1421.065, "end": 1426.205, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Noch schlimmer wird, wenn man mit Ihnen spricht.", "start": 1428.0249, "end": 1428.6398 }, { "text": "Ja, also das ist das ist", "start": 1428.6398, "end": 1428.7312 } ], "start": 1428.0249, "end": 1428.7312, "num_words": 14.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "wenn man mit Ihnen spricht.", "start": 1428.7495, "end": 1428.7952 }, { "text": "Ja, also das ist das ist", "start": 1428.7952, "end": 1428.8866 } ], "start": 1428.7495, "end": 1428.8866, "num_words": 11.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "in den Ja,", "start": 1428.9049, "end": 1431.47 } ], "start": 1428.9049, "end": 1431.47, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "also mit ihren Perspektive.", "start": 1431.47, "end": 1432.9299 }, { "text": "Beliebtes Beispiel ist auch das Wort Schnittstelle.", "start": 1433.71, "end": 1437.8099 }, { "text": "Das benutzen wir ja ganz viel und auch wenn wir hier über Datenkommunikation, Datenübertragung, Datenaustausch reden, da ist es ja immer die Schnittstelle, über die die Daten hinweg müssen.", "start": 1438.2699, "end": 1452.845 }, { "text": "Wenn man mit 'nem E-Tech über eine Schnittstelle spricht, dann hat der in der Regel 'n physischen Stecker und eine Steckdose im Kopf.", "start": 1453.865, "end": 1461.7301 }, { "text": "Oder eine Mikrofonbuchse und das Kabel mit dem entsprechenden Stecker dazu.", "start": 1462.3501, "end": 1468.29 } ], "start": 1431.47, "end": 1468.29, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da muss man sich auch erst mal drüber einigen, worüber wir jetzt hier grade reden.", "start": 1468.8301, "end": 1473.715 }, { "text": "Und genauso ist es eben halt auch bei den bei den datenbezogenen Standards.", "start": 1473.715, "end": 1478.615 }, { "text": "Da haben wir zwar eine gemeinsame Vorstellung, was die Schnittstelle ist, aber da haben wir auch 'n großes Spektrum der vertikalen Unterteilung.", "start": 1480.435, "end": 1496.59 }, { "text": "Genau wie vorhin schon angesprochen, die Daten sind eventuell in dem einen oder in dem anderen Schriftsystem abgelegt.", "start": 1497.21, "end": 1504.985 }, { "text": "Wenn wir jetzt 'n Schritt weitergehen, gucken wir uns Anja, welche Bedeutung, welche Semantik haben die Daten an der Stelle?", "start": 1505.0449, "end": 1512.9049 } ], "start": 1468.8301, "end": 1512.9049, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Was ist damit gemeint?", "start": 1513.0449, "end": 1514.4249 }, { "text": "Die Sprache spielt eine Rolle, die ja auch oberhalb des Schriftsystems noch sitzt.", "start": 1514.92, "end": 1520.68 }, { "text": "Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die zum Beispiel das chyralische Schriftsystem benutzen.", "start": 1520.68, "end": 1525.72 }, { "text": "Wir haben viele verschiedene Sprachen, die das lateinische Schriftsystem benutzen.", "start": 1525.72, "end": 1529.9249 }, { "text": "Und unten drunter landen ja keine lateinischen Buchstaben irgendwo in Computern, sondern das sind irgendwelche Bitwerte.", "start": 1530.225, "end": 1538.8049 } ], "start": 1513.0449, "end": 1538.8049, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da brauchen wir auch wieder eine Abbildung.", "start": 1539.825, "end": 1541.605 }, { "text": "Und auch diese Strukturierung brauchen wir bei den datenbezogenen Standards, eben genau nicht so von unten sich anzugucken, wir haben die Festplatte.", "start": 1542.7849, "end": 1555.02 }, { "text": "Wie ist die Festplatte denn physisch aufgebaut?", "start": 1555.56, "end": 1558.6201 }, { "text": "Bis hoch, in welcher Sprache sind die Daten denn überhaupt sinnvoll interpretierbar?", "start": 1559.325, "end": 1566.1449 } ], "start": 1539.825, "end": 1566.1449, "num_words": 48.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also 'n komplexes Thema, das merke ich schon.", "start": 1567.6449, "end": 1569.8049 }, { "text": "Man kann sich da auch verlieren in der Tiefe.", "start": 1569.8049, "end": 1571.825 }, { "text": "Bevor wir das jetzt machen, lasst uns noch mal einen anderen Aspekt anschauen.", "start": 1571.96, "end": 1574.84 }, { "text": "Wir haben jetzt ja bislang über den Austausch von Daten gesprochen.", "start": 1574.84, "end": 1577.66 }, { "text": "Das ist eine.", "start": 1578.76, "end": 1579.64 } ], "start": 1567.6449, "end": 1579.64, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Es geht aber auch Datensicherheit, wenn wir über Standard sprechen.", "start": 1579.64, "end": 1583.1 }, { "text": "Wie welche Rolle spielt Datensicherheit bei diesen Standards?", "start": 1584.295, "end": 1588.395 } ], "start": 1579.64, "end": 1588.395, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also wir brauchen Sicherheitsstandards für die Daten, weil erwiesenermaßen Sicherheit immer nur so gut ist wie das schwächste Glied in der Kette.", "start": 1589.335, "end": 1607.1499 }, { "text": "Und das gilt halt auch für die Daten.", "start": 1607.9299, "end": 1610.59 }, { "text": "Wenn ich 'n Verfahren habe, wo Daten über verschiedene Stellen womöglich über verschiedene Behörden fließen, brauch ich Sicherheitsstandards, die von allen beteiligten Stellen eingehalten werden, ein minimales Sicherheitsniveau der Daten sicherstellen zu können.", "start": 1611.13, "end": 1632.3301 }, { "text": "Ganz klar, wenn ich Daten beispielsweise zwischen 3 Behörden auszutauschen habe, 2 Behörden davon verschlüsseln die Kommunikation zwischen sich.", "start": 1632.7101, "end": 1645.9349 }, { "text": "Die dritte Behörde unterstützt nicht die gleiche Verschlüsselung wie eine der beiden anderen und sagt, oh, oh, bei mir fließen dann, weiß nicht anders, geht die Daten unverschlüsselt über die Leitung?", "start": 1646.955, "end": 1658.5599 } ], "start": 1589.335, "end": 1658.5599, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, wenn dann 1 halt auf der Leitung draufsitzt und die Daten mithört, dann hat er alle Daten mitgehört, weil ja die Daten sozusagen über alle Behörden hinwegfließen und demgemäß die gleiche Datengrundlage dort an allen 3 Stellen übertragen wird.", "start": 1658.5599, "end": 1676.945 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1676.945, "end": 1677.185 } ], "start": 1658.5599, "end": 1677.185, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also da wird auch noch mal deutlich, wie wichtig da eben auch gemeinsame Standards sind an der Stelle.", "start": 1677.185, "end": 1681.205 }, { "text": "In der Medienberichterstattung in den letzten Jahren, da ist uns das begegnet, das Thema vielleicht bei dem bei der elektronischen Patientenakte.", "start": 1681.265, "end": 1688.4401 }, { "text": "Da kam nämlich plötzlich die Diskussion auf, ne, sollte nicht hier die Blockchain eine größere Rolle spielen, also", "start": 1689.78, "end": 1695.4 } ], "start": 1677.185, "end": 1695.4, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "man so von, Kryptowährung ist ja", "start": 1698.025, "end": 1698.385 } ], "start": 1698.025, "end": 1698.385, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "auch 'n Standard, Blockchain, einfach Gesundheitsdaten, die sehr, sehr sensibel sind, zu verschlüsseln.", "start": 1698.385, "end": 1701.965 }, { "text": "Ist das 'n Standard, der uns in Zukunft hier auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung öfters begegnen wird?", "start": 1702.505, "end": 1707.84 } ], "start": 1698.385, "end": 1707.84, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also Verschlüsselung sicherlich.", "start": 1709.76, "end": 1711.14 }, { "text": "Bei der Blockchain bin ich mir weniger sicher, ob die Zukunft nicht eine große Rolle spielen wird.", "start": 1711.52, "end": 1716.5 }, { "text": "Da wird dann der Lage längst auch gerne in diesen Diskussionen so ein bisschen was zusammengewürfelt.", "start": 1717.9199, "end": 1722.505 }, { "text": "Also so ein ja letztlich monolithisches Angebot wie die elektronische Patientenakte, die sicher zu machen, brauche ich nicht unbedingt ein dezentrales System wie die Blockchain.", "start": 1722.7251, "end": 1733.785 }, { "text": "Also vernünftige Verschlüsselungsstandards würden da vollkommen reichen.", "start": 1733.925, "end": 1736.9851 } ], "start": 1709.76, "end": 1736.9851, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und vor allen Dingen, die Blockchain ist an sich eher 'n offenes System, weil ich kann zwar in der Blockchain die Daten verschlüsseln, aber die Blockchain ist in erster Linie dazu gedacht, Daten nachvollziehbar irgendwo ablegen zu können.", "start": 1737.54, "end": 1756.235 }, { "text": "Also überprüfen zu können, dass die Daten als solche korrekt sind.", "start": 1756.235, "end": 1763.2949 } ], "start": 1737.54, "end": 1763.2949, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dass sie nicht manipuliert wurden zum Beispiel.", "start": 1763.835, "end": 1766.015 } ], "start": 1763.835, "end": 1766.015, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dass vor allen Dingen auch Metadaten über Daten nicht manipuliert worden sind.", "start": 1766.155, "end": 1771.22 }, { "text": "Also zum Beispiel ein Transaktionszeitpunkt oder ein Betrag, das ist der wesentliche Ansatz der Blockchain.", "start": 1771.22, "end": 1780.6799 }, { "text": "Verschlüsselung, wie gesagt, kann man in der Blockchain machen, aber kann man auch überall woanders machen und die Blockchain als solche bietet in Sachen Verschlüsselung keine besonderen Vorteile.", "start": 1782.375, "end": 1792.9551 }, { "text": "Die Verschlüsselungsarten, die Verschlüsselungsalgorithmen sind unabhängig davon, ob ich das in 'nem Speicher, in 'ner Datenbank oder in 'ner Blockchain mache.", "start": 1793.76, "end": 1806.42 } ], "start": 1766.155, "end": 1806.42, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Kommen wir zum letzten Punkt eurer Publikation, da habt ihr nämlich auch die Frage aufgeworfen nach einem ethischen Umgang mit Daten.", "start": 1808.56, "end": 1816.125 }, { "text": "Fand ich spannend, was meint ihr damit?", "start": 1816.1849, "end": 1817.885 } ], "start": 1808.56, "end": 1817.885, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gut, wir kennen's wir kennen's eigentlich alle von 'ner Datenschutzgrundverordnung, die ja inzwischen auch, von der jeder Bürger auch inzwischen schon mal zumindest was gehört hat oder dem Bundesdatenschutzgesetz, was das ja eigentlich abbildet.", "start": 1818.905, "end": 1837.285 }, { "text": "Wir dürfen nicht alle Daten für alle beliebigen Zwecke verwenden.", "start": 1839.825, "end": 1845.125 }, { "text": "Wir dürfen Daten nicht beliebig kombinieren.", "start": 1845.425, "end": 1848.725 }, { "text": "Der Bürger, die Bürgerin hat ein Recht auf Privatsphäre, auf Geheimnisse.", "start": 1849.58, "end": 1856.48 }, { "text": "Und wir dürfen eben halt auch nicht die technischen Mittel, die wir heute zum Teil haben und die erschreckende Möglichkeiten bieten, Daten zusammenzuführen und daraus Rückschlüsse über Personen zu ziehen, in ihrer vollen Breite für diese Zwecke nutzen.", "start": 1857.98, "end": 1875.755 } ], "start": 1818.905, "end": 1875.755, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und da brauchen wir ethische Standards, die uns da auch Grenzen setzen.", "start": 1875.755, "end": 1880.08 }, { "text": "Genauso wie wir ethische Standards dafür brauchen, auf welche Art und Weise wir bestimmte Daten überhaupt gewinnen dürfen.", "start": 1880.08, "end": 1889.62 }, { "text": "Was ist eine zulässige Art, Daten überhaupt in die Hand zu bekommen?", "start": 1890.16, "end": 1897.005 }, { "text": "Also wir wissen alle, dass zum Beispiel ja in anderen Regimen Daten durch Folter gewonnen werden.", "start": 1897.005, "end": 1906.385 }, { "text": "Ist ganz klar, dafür brauchen wir in Deutschland nicht irgendwie noch 'n extra Papier, 'n extra Standard, den sich Deutschland setzt.", "start": 1906.5199, "end": 1915.98 } ], "start": 1875.755, "end": 1915.98, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Aber es gibt eben halt auch Abstufungen und Grenzbereiche und auch da müssen wir uns Regeln setzen.", "start": 1916.2, "end": 1922.885 } ], "start": 1916.2, "end": 1922.885, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1923.6649, "end": 1924.1649 }, { "text": "Wir haben heute in diesem Podcast ja doch eine ziemliche Fahrt gemacht durch verschiedene Aspekte datenbezogener Standards.", "start": 1925.4249, "end": 1931.365 }, { "text": "Lasst uns jetzt am Schluss mal zusammenfassen, was macht jetzt wirklich einen guten datenbezogenen Standard aus?", "start": 1931.4249, "end": 1937.88 }, { "text": "Also was sozusagen kommt alles in die Rührschüssel für unseren damit so einen Standardkuchen, wenn ich den mal so nennen", "start": 1937.88, "end": 1945.815 } ], "start": 1923.6649, "end": 1945.815, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da kann man uns gegenseitig die Zutaten zuschmeißen, ne?", "start": 1947.0149, "end": 1949.6749 }, { "text": "Er wird eingehalten hoffentlich, fang ich mit an.", "start": 1950.455, "end": 1953.835 } ], "start": 1947.0149, "end": 1953.835, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, und er ist umfassend für einen gut beschriebenen Anwendungsfall, aber er bietet auch Flexibilität, weil wir wissen alle, Anwendungsfälle auch in der öffentlichen Verwaltung entwickeln sich weiter.", "start": 1954.1349, "end": 1975.705 }, { "text": "Das heißt, 'n Standard, der zu stark sich fokussiert auf das Hier und Heute, der kann eben in 5 Jahren schon völlig unbrauchbar geworden sein, weil ihn die Technik überholt hat, weil ihn Rechtsprechung überholt hat oder weil ihn halt gesellschaftliche Bedürfnisse überholt haben.", "start": 1976.645, "end": 2000.8999 } ], "start": 1954.1349, "end": 2000.8999, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das heißt, der wird akzeptiert, der ist flexibel?", "start": 2003.135, "end": 2005.395 } ], "start": 2003.135, "end": 2005.395, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Entsprechend passend dazu weiterentwickelt, laufend.", "start": 2007.295, "end": 2011.875 }, { "text": "Zum Beispiel, ja, hast Du eigentlich ja schon gesagt an technische Entwicklung oder gesellschaftliche Bedarfe angepasst.", "start": 2012.8151, "end": 2017.395 }, { "text": "Ein auch ganz wichtiger Aspekt, der jetzt nicht so zentral ist, aber dann in der Umsetzung, glaube ich, einiges an Bedeutung gewinnt, der muss vielleicht zugänglich sein.", "start": 2018.4299, "end": 2028.35 }, { "text": "Ich muss gut rankommen können.", "start": 2028.35, "end": 2029.8099 }, { "text": "Da gibt es ja unterschiedliche Modelle, auch der Standard setzenden Gremien, ob er frei im Sinne auch von kostenlos auffindbar ist oder halt eben bezahlt werden muss, was dann weder gerade für kleine Kommunen, mit denen wir heute angefangen haben, durchaus eine Zugangsbarriere sein kann.", "start": 2030.5549, "end": 2046.6 } ], "start": 2007.295, "end": 2046.6, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also auch dafür braucht's dann Lösungen, damit auch alle, die den Standard einhalten sollen, ihn auch Problemus kriegen können.", "start": 2046.8201, "end": 2053.48 } ], "start": 2046.8201, "end": 2053.48, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Man merkt schon, wenn wir jetzt so diskutieren, wenn ich euch auch bei der Diskussion zuhöre, das", "start": 2055.3801, "end": 2058.3684 } ], "start": 2055.3801, "end": 2058.3684, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "ist 'n Thema für Expert*innen.", "start": 2058.3684, "end": 2058.439 }, { "text": "Jetzt haben wir vielleicht", "start": 2058.439, "end": 2058.4954 } ], "start": 2058.3684, "end": 2058.4954, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist Jetzt haben wir vielleicht Hörerinnen und Hörer, die sich denken, oh, ist 'n ganz schöner Brocken in meiner kleinen Kommune, in meiner Behörde.", "start": 2058.4954, "end": 2067.695 }, { "text": "Wer hilft denn bei der Implementierung von datenbezogenen Standards, wenn man selbst nicht weiter weiß?", "start": 2068.155, "end": 2073.63 } ], "start": 2058.4954, "end": 2073.63, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also üblicherweise, wenn's die Implementierung technischer Standards geht, wenn's die Implementierung von Sicherheitsstandards geht, da bedient man sich ja 1 Dienstleisters.", "start": 2075.39, "end": 2090.305 }, { "text": "Und da verstärkt sich dann noch das Problem, was Mike eben angesprochen hat, der Zugänglichkeit von Standards.", "start": 2092.285, "end": 2101.95 }, { "text": "Also grade wenn es zum Beispiel Normen geht und ich hab eine kleine Behörde, da ließe sich noch relativ gut vorstellen, dass die Behördenmitarbeiter vielleicht über einen geschlossenen Behördenzugang auf Normen auch zugreifen können.", "start": 2101.95, "end": 2119.775 }, { "text": "Aber ob der kleine Dienstleister dann noch die Normen in der Breite verfügbar hat, die durchaus sone Investition bedeuten können, wenn man sich 'n breiteren Überblick über Normen verschaffen möchte, das ist dann schon sehr fraglich.", "start": 2120.075, "end": 2137.8801 }, { "text": "Das heißt, da muss eigentlich auch die entsprechende Kompetenz und die Vorarbeit teilweise in die Behörde vorverlagert werden, sodass die Behörden in die Lage versetzt werden, zu sagen, hier, diese Standards sind jetzt erforderlich.", "start": 2137.9402, "end": 2154.2651 } ], "start": 2075.39, "end": 2154.2651, "num_words": 142.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und nur die, lieber Dienstleister, die musst Du dir dann beschaffen, wenn Du für uns da eine entsprechende Realisierung in technischer Art und Weise machst.", "start": 2155.8599, "end": 2167.16 } ], "start": 2155.8599, "end": 2167.16, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das heißt, es braucht mehr Kompetenz auch in den Behörden, in den Verwaltungen.", "start": 2167.38, "end": 2171.135 }, { "text": "Ja, habt ihr dann noch zum Schluss eine konkrete Handlungsempfehlung?", "start": 2171.835, "end": 2174.4148 }, { "text": "Also sich Kompetenz reinholen, das ist das eine.", "start": 2175.035, "end": 2178.4749 }, { "text": "Maik, was gibt's noch auf der Agenda?", "start": 2178.4749, "end": 2180.8948 } ], "start": 2167.38, "end": 2180.8948, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, ich denke, dass einiges an dieser Kompetenzarbeit auch durchaus zusammengefasst werden könnte.", "start": 2181.97, "end": 2186.05 }, { "text": "Es gibt ja auch Institutionen, die sich intensiv mit enormen Standardisierungen der öffentlichen Verwaltung auseinandersetzen.", "start": 2186.05, "end": 2191.9102 }, { "text": "Deren Serviceangebot könnte vielleicht noch breiter sein und sich ja auch an kleinere Kommunen zum Beispiel richten.", "start": 2193.4102, "end": 2199.195 } ], "start": 2181.97, "end": 2199.195, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also wir brauchen definitiv Lotsenfunktionen.", "start": 2199.195, "end": 2202.095 }, { "text": "Wir brauchen Lotsenfunktionen durch die existierenden Standards.", "start": 2202.875, "end": 2208.335 }, { "text": "Und wir brauchen auch Lotsenfunktionen in dem Fall, dass 'n neuer Standard geschaffen werden muss.", "start": 2209.0898, "end": 2216.79 }, { "text": "Dass eben auch Fehler, die größere Organisationen schon nicht mehr machen, weil sie gelernt haben, wie man's besser machen sollte, nicht von kleineren Organisationen dann einige Jahre verzögert erneut gemacht werden, weil dort eben das Wissen nicht vorhanden ist.", "start": 2216.8499, "end": 2235.555 }, { "text": "Also wir brauchen sehr viel mehr Lotsenunterstützung, einerseits interbehördlich", "start": 2235.555, "end": 2241.59 } ], "start": 2199.195, "end": 2241.59, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "und", "start": 2243.81, "end": 2243.97 } ], "start": 2243.81, "end": 2243.97, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "andererseits brauchen wir halt auch für die Dienstleister, aber auch für diejenigen, die mit der öffentlichen Verwaltung zusammenarbeiten müssen.", "start": 2243.97, "end": 2252.495 }, { "text": "Wir hatten vorhin das Beispiel x Rechnung, wo ja die Umsetzung im Prinzip von jeder Firma in irgend 'ner Form verfügbar sein muss, die jetzt eine Rechnung an die öffentliche Hand stellt.", "start": 2252.495, "end": 2264.595 }, { "text": "Wir brauchen auch für diese kleinen Firmen, die dann die Öffentlichkeit, die Wirtschaft unterstützen, mit der öffentlichen Hand kommunizieren, interagieren zu können, da brauchen wir auch Lotsenfunktionen.", "start": 2264.735, "end": 2278.65 } ], "start": 2243.97, "end": 2278.65, "num_words": 78.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Datenbezogene Standards und warum sie in der öffentlichen Verwaltung wichtig sind.", "start": 2281.615, "end": 2286.015 }, { "text": "Das war restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums Öffentlicher IT.", "start": 2286.015, "end": 2290.275 }, { "text": "Vielen Dank an Gabriele Goldacker und Doktor Mike Weber für das Gespräch.", "start": 2290.4148, "end": 2294.6748 }, { "text": "Schön, dass ihr hier wart.", "start": 2295.0, "end": 2296.04 } ], "start": 2281.615, "end": 2296.04, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sehr gerne.", "start": 2296.04, "end": 2296.76 } ], "start": 2296.04, "end": 2296.76, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dankeschön.", "start": 2296.76, "end": 2297.26 } ], "start": 2296.76, "end": 2297.26, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die passende Publikation, die gibt's wieder online unter öfid Punkt d e.", "start": 2300.28, "end": 2304.52 }, { "text": "Öfid mit o e und schaut auch gern mal in den Shownotes, da haben wir sie nämlich für euch verlinkt.", "start": 2304.52, "end": 2308.995 }, { "text": "Falls euch der Podcast gefallen hat, empfehlt uns gerne weiter und folgt uns kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple Podcast und überall, wo es Podcast gibt.", "start": 2309.475, "end": 2317.5552 }, { "text": "Danke fürs Zuhören.", "start": 2317.5552, "end": 2318.675 }, { "text": "Am Mikrofon verabschiedet sich Philipp 1.", "start": 2318.675, "end": 2320.935 } ], "start": 2300.28, "end": 2320.935, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 1.52, 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Da haben wir ja völlig verschiedene", "words": [ { "word": "oder", "start": 1098.4, "end": 1098.72, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "oder", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.8968439 }, { "word": "in", "start": 1098.72, "end": 1098.8, "confidence": 0.7783203, "punctuated_word": "in", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "anderen", "start": 1098.8, "end": 1099.12, "confidence": 0.42163086, "punctuated_word": "anderen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "fall", "start": 1099.12, "end": 1099.36, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "Fall", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "vielleicht", "start": 1099.36, "end": 1099.52, "confidence": 0.9536133, "punctuated_word": "vielleicht", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "auf", "start": 1099.52, "end": 1099.6799, "confidence": 0.95703125, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "guerillisch", "start": 1099.6799, "end": 1100.16, "confidence": 0.7706543, "punctuated_word": "Guerillisch.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "da", "start": 1100.16, "end": 1100.4, "confidence": 0.98535156, "punctuated_word": "Da", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "haben", "start": 1100.4, "end": 1100.48, "confidence": 0.98095703, "punctuated_word": "haben", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "wir", "start": 1100.48, "end": 1100.5599, "confidence": 0.96240234, "punctuated_word": "wir", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.5286346 }, { "word": "ja", "start": 1100.5599, "end": 1100.64, "confidence": 0.42041016, "punctuated_word": "ja", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 }, { "word": "völlig", "start": 1100.64, "end": 1100.88, "confidence": 0.90283203, "punctuated_word": "völlig", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 }, { "word": "verschiedene", "start": 1100.88, "end": 1101.38, "confidence": 0.9902344, "punctuated_word": "verschiedene", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "14e496cf-5faa-460e-aaca-1e7fa64e29e9" }, { "start": 1101.76, "end": 1102.26, "confidence": 0.9777832, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Schreibweisen", "words": [ { "word": "schreibweisen", "start": 1101.76, "end": 1102.26, "confidence": 0.9777832, "punctuated_word": "Schreibweisen", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "91bdc729-f830-4cea-89c9-7b49821f2c23" }, { "start": 1102.8, "end": 1103.54, "confidence": 0.8905029, "channel": 0, "transcript": "von Sprachen,", "words": [ { "word": "von", "start": 1102.8, "end": 1103.04, "confidence": 0.99121094, "punctuated_word": "von", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 }, { "word": "sprachen", "start": 1103.04, "end": 1103.54, "confidence": 0.7897949, "punctuated_word": "Sprachen,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6835197 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "d873b442-6ec0-4cb9-ab36-79dd122e3f3c" }, { "start": 1104.5599, "end": 1109.7, "confidence": 0.944252, "channel": 0, "transcript": "ja, die müssen aber trotzdem irgendwie synchronisiert werden. 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Wir kennen das im Alltag, wenn wir zum Beispiel unsere digitale Fotosammlung verschlagworten, ja, die Fotodaten, die ich aus meinem Urlaub gemacht hab und mitbringe, das sind die Bilddaten und das, was ich als Schlagwort dahinter packe, nämlich Urlaub 20 24, das sind die Metadaten. 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Das fängt ja schon bei disziplinären Grenzen an. In in Paper bin ich wieder über Datensatz gestolpert, das unterschiedliche Verständnis von Datensatz.", "words": [ { "word": "was", "start": 1357.76, "end": 1358.0, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "Was", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6873729 }, { "word": "übrigens", "start": 1358.0, "end": 1358.4, "confidence": 0.9863281, "punctuated_word": "übrigens", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6873729 }, { "word": "überhaupt", "start": 1358.4, "end": 1358.64, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "überhaupt", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6873729 }, { "word": "nicht", "start": 1358.64, "end": 1358.8, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "nicht", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6873729 }, { "word": "trivial", "start": 1358.8, "end": 1359.28, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "trivial", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.6873729 }, { "word": "ist", "start": 1359.28, "end": 1359.68, "confidence": 0.97680664, "punctuated_word": "ist.", "speaker": 1, 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Mhm. Also da wird auch noch mal deutlich, wie wichtig da eben auch gemeinsame Standards sind an der Stelle. 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Das heißt, es braucht mehr Kompetenz auch in den Behörden, in den Verwaltungen.", "words": [ { "word": "in", "start": 2165.14, "end": 2165.2998, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "in", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.55493295 }, { "word": "technischer", "start": 2165.2998, "end": 2165.7998, "confidence": 0.9970703, "punctuated_word": "technischer", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.55493295 }, { "word": "art", "start": 2165.8599, "end": 2166.18, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Art", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.55493295 }, { "word": "und", "start": 2166.18, "end": 2166.3398, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "und", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.55493295 }, { "word": "weise", "start": 2166.3398, "end": 2166.66, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Weise", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.55493295 }, { "word": "machst", "start": 2166.66, "end": 2167.16, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "machst.", "speaker": 2, 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Maik, was gibt's noch auf der Agenda?", "words": [ { "word": "sich", "start": 2176.4749, "end": 2176.7148, "confidence": 0.77441406, "punctuated_word": "sich", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.7282467 }, { "word": "kompetenz", "start": 2176.7148, "end": 2177.1948, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "Kompetenz", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.7282467 }, { "word": "reinholen", "start": 2177.1948, "end": 2177.6748, "confidence": 0.8986003, "punctuated_word": "reinholen,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.7282467 }, { "word": "das", "start": 2177.6748, "end": 2177.835, "confidence": 0.5888672, "punctuated_word": "das", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.7282467 }, { "word": "ist", "start": 2177.835, "end": 2177.9148, "confidence": 0.90771484, "punctuated_word": "ist", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "das", "start": 2177.9148, "end": 2178.075, "confidence": 0.96533203, "punctuated_word": "das", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "eine", "start": 2178.075, "end": 2178.4749, "confidence": 0.92407227, "punctuated_word": "eine.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "maik", "start": 2178.4749, "end": 2178.795, "confidence": 0.8063965, "punctuated_word": "Maik,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "was", "start": 2178.795, "end": 2179.035, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "was", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "gibt's", "start": 2179.035, "end": 2179.535, "confidence": 0.9711914, "punctuated_word": "gibt's", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "noch", "start": 2179.755, "end": 2179.9949, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "noch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "auf", "start": 2179.9949, "end": 2180.1548, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "der", "start": 2180.1548, "end": 2180.3948, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "der", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 }, { "word": "agenda", "start": 2180.3948, "end": 2180.8948, "confidence": 0.9995117, "punctuated_word": "Agenda?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.6181697 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "63716ec3-fbef-4a4b-9dff-3d7a7f4877c3" }, { "start": 2181.97, "end": 2184.1501, "confidence": 0.9776001, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Ja, ich denke, dass einiges an dieser Kompetenzarbeit", "words": [ { "word": "ja", "start": 2181.97, "end": 2182.05, "confidence": 0.8496094, "punctuated_word": "Ja,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "ich", "start": 2182.05, "end": 2182.29, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "ich", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "denke", "start": 2182.29, "end": 2182.53, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "denke,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "dass", "start": 2182.53, "end": 2182.6902, "confidence": 0.99316406, "punctuated_word": "dass", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "einiges", "start": 2182.6902, "end": 2183.09, "confidence": 0.9902344, "punctuated_word": "einiges", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "an", "start": 2183.09, "end": 2183.25, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "an", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "dieser", "start": 2183.25, "end": 2183.6501, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "dieser", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 }, { "word": "kompetenzarbeit", "start": 2183.6501, "end": 2184.1501, "confidence": 0.99365234, "punctuated_word": "Kompetenzarbeit", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.7855448 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "34012d25-243a-4c3c-89f0-a2a5fe2a9184" }, { "start": 2184.53, "end": 2190.1501, "confidence": 0.9522934, "channel": 0, "transcript": "auch durchaus zusammengefasst werden könnte. 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