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            "transcript": "Kennen Sie den Begriff Over Choice? Falls Sie den nicht kennen, dann kennen Sie aber bestimmt das Gefühl, dass damit beschrieben wird, und zwar das Gefühl, einfach zu viele Optionen zu haben, aus denen man auswählen kann. Also zum Beispiel welchen Podcast soll ich hören? Wohin soll ich in den Urlaub fahren? Soll ich einen Regenschirm mit nach draußen nehmen? Wir haben ganz oft die Qual der Wahl und es ist natürlich verlockend, sich nicht selber zu quälen, sondern jemanden mit unendlicher Geduld und unendlichem Wissen wie zum Beispiel einen digitalen Assistenten. Google Germany gibt's da ChatGPT oder Alexa. So weit, so harmlos, aber wie ist es im größeren Kontext? Was passiert, wenn wir uns von digitalen Assistenten durchs Leben navigieren lassen? Welche gesamtgesellschaftlichen Auswirkungen hat es zum Beispiel, wenn ich der Empfehlung des Routenplaners folge und, ein paar Minuten schneller zu sein, durch ein Wohngebiet fahre? Im Moment dienen digitale Assistenten vor allem den individuellen Interessen von Nutzerinnen und nicht zu vergessen, auch den wirtschaftlichen Interessen von großen Digitalunternehmen. In unserem öFIT Podcast stellen wir heute Ansätze vor, wie's anders gehen könnte, wie digitale Assistenten auch den Gemeinwohl nutzen können, zum Beispiel im Einsatz für die öffentliche Verwaltung. Und wenn Sie sich grade schon wundern, warum wir heute so anders klingen als sonst, wir sind mit dieser Ausgabe zu Gast bei der Smart Country Convention in Berlin. Das ist also eine Live Folge von Restart digital, in neuer Umgebung, aber mit vertrauten Stimmen. Und zwar mit mir, Franziska Walser und mit meinen beiden Co Hosts, diesmal beide anwesend und zwar Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT, kurz öFIT. Hallo, Nicole. Hallo, Franziska. Und Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und ebenfalls stellvertretender Leiter des öFIT. Hallo, Mike. Hallo Franziska. Wie habt ihr euch denn hier aufs Podium durchgeschlagen? Mit Assistenz oder ohne? Hattet ihr vielleicht einen kleinen Routenplaner zum Beispiel zur Hilfe? Also ich bin zum Beispiel, ich bin mit Uber gefahren und ganz eindeutig ist die Route vorgegeben worden von 'nem Assistenten, weil ich bin in Straßen längs gefahren, da bin ich noch nie längst gefahren. Ich hab tatsächlich auch 'n weitbekannten Kartendienst genutzt, rauszufinden, zu welcher S-Bahnstation ich muss, ob Nord oder Süd oder wie auch immer. Das ist schon ganz faszinierend. Also einerseits ist es natürlich eine totale Vereinfachung, hab dann mit den Sätzen gesehen, dass ich viel länger brauche, als ich eigentlich geplant hatte. Andererseits sieht man dadran schon, wie der das Verhalten so ein bisschen lenkt. Ich hatte dann, im Auto hätte ich eine Viertelstunde gebraucht, mit öffentlichen eine Dreiviertelstunde. Allein in dieser Angabe ist das Dass man das schon nebeneinander sieht, ne? Ist schon bisschen nudging, ja. Genau. Und Du, Nicole? Ja, ich bin hab ja auch eine etwas weitere Anreise gehabt und bis hierher dann auch mit Navigationsassistenten durchgeschlagen. Hier in den Hallen hätte ich mir tatsächlich auch noch eine Indoor Navigation ein bisschen gewünscht, aber wir haben's gefunden und sind hier. Das ist schon mal gut. Ich hab son bisschen geguckt bei der Vorbereitung, also wo ich virtuelle Assistenten nutze. Ich hab zum Beispiel eine Smartwatch, die sagt immer, steh auf, wenn ich zu lang am Schreibtisch sitze oder ich hab 'n Textprogramm, das fliegt mir dann elegantere Formulierungen vor, die kann ich nehmen oder kann ich nicht nehmen. Das sind ja jetzt sehr spezialisierte und total einfache Anwendungen, im Prinzip auch dieses Kartenzeug, über das wir grade geredet haben. Aber der Trend geht ja in Richtung universelle Assistenzsysteme und die können natürlich dann vorstellbar noch viel mehr, ne. Was denn zum Beispiel? Genau, also Du hast es ja schon erwähnt, wir haben Assistenten in den verschiedensten Bereichen. Da kann's darum gehen, dass ich mir auf meine Gesundheit achten möchte. Wie schlafe ich? Wie viel bewege ich mich? Wie ist mein Medienkonsum? Dann haben wir welche, die uns eher bei Navigation helfen, aber auch in anderen Bereichen und die Assistenten basieren ja auf sehr großen Datenmengen und da gibt's natürlich schon die Tendenz zu sagen, ja gut, vielleicht weitet man das jetzt noch aus und versucht, ihnen angrenzenden Geschäftsfelder sozusagen vorzustoßen. Also genau, wenn ich jetzt bei bei Gesundheit bleibe, dann kann ich da vielleicht auch noch Wohlbefinden oder Sport oder andere Sachen einfach mit integrieren, dass ich dann auch meine Fitnessscores teilen kann. Und dass es quasi immer son bisschen größer wird, immer 'n bisschen wächst, noch mehr Nutzen zu bieten für die Nutzenden natürlich in meiner App, aber auch natürlich neue Kunden zu erschließen. Denn die Assistenten, die wir nutzen, in den meisten Fällen sind die natürlich profitgetrieben und von Unternehmen und die haben natürlich 'n Interesse daran, ihre Kundenbasis ständig zu erweitern. Genau, es gibt im Prinzip 2 Profitierende, also der Mensch, der sich's einfach machen will im Leben und dann Unternehmen, was eine Dienstleistung bereitstellt, aber das natürlich auch nicht aus reinem irgendwie nicht selbstlos und uneigennützig tut, sondern was ist sozusagen der Gegendeal? Also warum gibt's diese Systeme und wir können sie nutzen? Also, was haben die Unternehmen davon, meine ich? Die Unternehmen haben natürlich immer mehr Daten zur Verfügung über die Nutzenden. Wie verhalten sie sich? Wann stehen sie morgens auf? An welchen Orten halten sie sich auf? Wofür interessieren sie sich? Also da können immer mehr Daten genutzt werden, dann natürlich weitere Angebote drauf zu bauen, ob das jetzt Werbung ist oder ja, dass ich eben die Profile der Nutzenden ständig erweitern kann. Und da haben wir natürlich irgendwie auch vielleicht schon son ersten Konflikt. Ich nutze das Ganze natürlich, weil ich da für mich als Nutzer irgendeinen, ja, einen Benefit drinsehe, dass ich irgendwo schneller bin, dass ich das Gefühl habe, ich achte mehr auf meine Gesundheit. Das Unternehmen hat ja natürlich ganz andere Interessen, nämlich eher Gewinnmaximierung. Also da haben wir schon sone erste Konfliktlinie und was wir ja ganz spannend finden, was eigentlich bisher noch wenig beachtet wird, ist, was ist eigentlich mit gesellschaftlichen Aspekten Das wär ja noch was Drittes, ne, genau. Wir haben ja 'n Interesse, weil ich Genau. Konfliktlinie eigentlich. Das steht einerseits vielleicht diesem Profitinteresse entgegen, aber andererseits vielleicht auch meinem Individualinteresse. Du hattest in deiner Intro das schon son bisschen gesagt. Also ich möchte vielleicht möglichst schnell von a nach b kommen und das wollen vielleicht auch alle individuell natürlich, aber was passiert denn, wenn dann plötzlich alle durch son Wohngebiet durchfahren? Das war ja eigentlich nicht so intendiert. Eigentlich stattplanerisch oder von der Verkehrsleitung her möchte man natürlich lieber, dass die Leute die Ausfallstraßen, die Umgebungsstraßen rundherum nutzen, dass der Verkehr ja eher aus Wohngebieten rausgedrängt wird, damit man da weniger Lärm hat, weniger Luftverschmutzung, eine geringere Unfallgefahr. Ja, und da hat man eben dann diese verschiedensten Konfliktlinien und das finden wir ganz spannend, einfach mal darüber nachzudenken, ob digitale Assistenten nicht auch genutzt werden könnten, das Gemeinwohl eher zu fördern. Ja, sehr spannend. Da müssen wir auch nachher noch mal drüber reden, wie man die Leute dann dazu kriegt, das zu nutzen, weil möglicherweise genau, ist eben mein Eigeninteresse nicht das Gemeinwohlinteresse, zumindest nicht kurzfristig, langfristig dann vielleicht ja schon. Genau und wie kann auch die Motivation dann aufrechterhalten werden? Genau. Und wenn ich jetzt sage, okay, das dient jetzt gar nicht mehr primär meinem Interesse nur, sondern da sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr so stark im Vordergrund, wie es vielleicht mal war. Ja. Jetzt gibt's ja digitale Assistenten nicht erst seit gestern und deswegen könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass es da schon 'n paar Anwendungen gibt, wie das genutzt wird im Kontext von öffentlichen Verwaltungen oder Smart Cities oder so was. Habt ihr da 'n Beispiel? Also wird das schon genutzt? Das, was man jetzt beobachten kann, ist, dass diese Assistenten, Nicole hat sie eben beschrieben, aus der Perspektive des Unternehmens heraus, aber auch aus 'ner technischen Perspektive, ja immer mächtiger werden, auf ganz unterschiedliche Art und Weisen uns diese Desinformation bereitstellen können. Und da ist natürlich im Bereich Smart City, im Bereich gemeinsame Ressourcennutzung, gibt es in der Tat schon eine Anwendung, die das dann ausnutzen. Aber das Spannende ist halt, dass es immer umfassender wird. Ja. Also gar nicht so sehr auf die einzelne Anwendung, sondern diese Entscheidungsunterstützung oder diese Entlastung von Entscheidungssituationen, da spielt eben eine größere Rolle dabei. Ja, und möglicherweise auch, also das ist ja auch 'n Spektrum von, leg der mir nur nahe, nimm mal das Auto und oder nimm die öffentlichen Verkehrsmittel oder entscheide dir das für mich, weil's einfach eine Anwendung ist, die einfach schon Vorentscheidungen trifft, ne, was natürlich auch bequem sein kann, aber natürlich auch eine Form von Selbstwirksamkeit wegnimmt dann. Das ist ja 'n Phänomen, das wir bei ganz vielen Sachen, auch bei anderen entscheidungsunterstützenden Systemen oder bei anderen Nudging Systemen haben. Die Frage, inwieweit das einfach nur eine zusätzliche Information ist oder inwieweit das handlungsleitend wird und genau dadrauf, das ist dann die zweite eher technische Neuerung in dem Geschäft, genau dadrauf zielen wir ab. Also es ist ja ganz gezielt Entscheidungsentlastung zu fördern, ganz gezielt handlungsleitend zu sein. Das zeichnet Sie ja grade aus. Ja. Und je besser Sie das können, desto mehr übernehmen Sie die faktische Entscheidung, ja. Also ich nutze sie ja grade, weil die Informationsflut oder die Datenflut so groß ist und das einfach unglaublich schwierig ist für mich dann zu erkennen, was ist denn jetzt vielleicht die Beste? Ich möchte schon verschiedene Handlungsoptionen dann haben, also jemand hat das für mich schon einmal runtergebrochen auf verschiedene Alternativen, aber das heißt, das ist natürlich nur ein Ausschnitt der Realität. Da fehlen natürlich ganz viele Aspekte. Das ist ganz begrenzt nur, was mir da angezeigt wird und manche Alternativen sehe ich dann vielleicht auch einfach nicht und nehme sie dann auch nicht wahr. Mhm. Also das das ist quasi zweierlei, genau. Auf der einen Seite, dass es auf 1, dass es handlungsleitend wirkt, aber eben auch meine Wahrnehmung leitet. 1 meiner Lieblingsbeispiele ist, wenn ich eine Freundin in Frankfurt besuche und dann zu ihr nach Hause navigieren möchte, dann stehe ich da manchmal und denke, ja, das kann doch gar nicht sein, dass ich da so lange mit der S-Bahn brauche, das ist doch gar nicht so weit weg, was daran liegt, dass nämlich die U-Bahn-Verbindung nicht angezeigt wird, weil die Daten nicht zur Verfügung stehen, auch auf den Schnitt stellen. Dem großen öffentlichen Kartenanbieter, in denen Genau, das ist 'n anderer Anbieter und die Daten werden nicht offen zur Verfügung gestellt und wenn ich nicht weiß, dass es eine U-Bahn-Verbindung gibt, dann nehme ich halt die S-Bahn und bin sehr lange unterwegs, weil das dann überhaupt nicht in meiner Wahrnehmung ist, dass es da eine Alternative begebe. Ja. Also es beschränkt auch, wie wir die Welt wahrnehmen und natürlich auch, wie wir uns darin verhalten. Du hattest diese kleinen Beispiele genannt, da werden Textvorschläge gemacht oder steh doch mal auf vom Schreibtisch und so weiter und das Phänomen, was wir beobachten, ist ja, dass man häufig diesen Empfehlungen dann folgt. Das wird dann ja Automation Bias genannt, dass man, ja, das ist eine maschinelle Entscheidung und Die wird schon wissen, wie viel tun. Genau, da liegen so viele Daten dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehmen dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehm ich das halt. Ja. Aber können wir noch einmal vielleicht dieses zugrunde liegende Prinzip fassen. Also ich fand's bei der Vorbereitung total verwirrend. Also was ist eine digitale Assistenz? Das kann in meiner Smartwatch drin sein, im Smart Speaker drin sein. Das kann Empfehlungsalgorithmus beim Onlineshopping sein. Das kann wirklich alles Mögliche sein. Und ich hatte dann son Aha Moment in dem Moment, wo ich gesagt hab, okay, das ist eine eine Art, die Welt für mich vorzusortieren. Also in diesem Whitepaper, was ja die Grundlage ist heute für den Podcast, da heißt's vorausschauende datenbasierte Ratgeber. Also können wir's noch einmal so runterbrechen? Also Daten müssen da sein, möglichst viele. Es sind auch immer mehr Daten da. Und dann in 'nem zweiten Schritt passiert eine Filterung, kann man das so sagen? Ja und nein. Also natürlich passiert eine Filterung alleine über die Datenverfügbarkeit. Das ist mein Beispiel. Mhm. Aber natürlich auch über eine, wie ich sag mal, zentrale Relevanzeinschätzung. Also natürlich kann ich nicht alle Daten dieser Welt für mein Navigationsproblem einsetzen, sondern dann nehm ich dann halt die die naheliegenden Daten, im Westfall noch Verkehrsdaten dazu, damit ich dann gleichzeitig die Verzögerungen mit einbauen kann. Das ist dann ja schon der Prozess der Kontextualisierung. Also ich hab da so Daten und mach daraus Welche Daten sind relevant für ein ein bestimmtes Ziel. Diese Auswahl ist dann auch wieder selektiv und dann kommt die eigentlich Entscheidungsunterstützung obendrauf, also der Algorithmus, wenn man so will, der dann ja auch auf irgendwas optimiert sein kann, auf kurze Fahrzeiten Oder schöne Aussicht oder wenig Benzinverbrauch Genau. Oder das würde man dann mitgeben sozusagen in dem Schritt, ne. Und dann am Ende kommt eben eine mehr oder weniger entschiedene Entscheidung raus, Sprachausgabe oder in in verschiedener Form kann die dann erfolgen. Genau, das das Gerät ist ja mittlerweile vollkommen unabhängig davon. Ich kann, wie Du schon sagst, eine Uhr sein. Früher, als wir angefangen haben, uns mit solchen Konzepten auseinanderzusetzen, das ist ja auch alles nicht nicht so wahnsinnig neu. Da sind wir noch von der Smart City ausgegangen, dass das quasi den digitalen Rahmen gibt, der uns dann lenken wird. Das haben wir jetzt eher körpernah. Geräte wandern wieder zur zu den einzelnen Personen hin. Ob das jetzt eine Uhr oder 'n Telefon oder 'n Kopfhörer oder was auch immer ist, das ist relativ wurscht. Aber ist interessant. Also damals war das mir gedacht im Sinne von digitalen Hinweistafeln, die dann Hinweise geben. Das war mal der Grund, so hat man sich das vorgestellt. Ich find das nämlich immer ganz interessant, wie man so am Anfang von der Technik sich vorstellt, wie's sein könnte. Und dann wird's am Ende ganz anders genutzt. Wieso so richtig? Die Fantasie beflügelt haben damals auch ein schon häufig nicht genanntes großes Unternehmen mit der Brillentechnologie. Aha. Und dann als Acmontut Reality, dass man da dann die Hinweise der Affirmionen eingespielt kriegt und dann Ja. Aber das, wie wir mittlerweile wissen, hat sich nicht so durchgesetzt. Genau. Und wir machen's einfach mit den Geräten, die wir halt nutzen auch zum zum Kommunizieren und so. Und wenn man sagen würde, wir wollen Gemeinnützigkeit irgendwo in diesen Schritten, die wir jetzt gerade durchgegangen sind, reingeben, was ist dann der entscheidende Schritt? Also die Datengrundlage oder die Vorfilterung oder das der Spin, den man den dann mitgibt, also der welchen welchen Nutzen soll's haben, wo setzt man da an? Also ich glaub, der der allererste und entscheidende Schritt ist, bei der Konzeption dieser Assistenten die Möglichkeit zu geben, andere Aspekte außer die, die wir schon besprochen haben, mit aufzunehmen. Also das bedeutet, kokreative Entwicklung oder Offenheit der Systeme sind 2 unterschiedliche Wege, das zu erleichtern. Ich hab über 1 gesagt, gewährleisten, aber das ist zu erleichtern. Ja. Dass man auch andere Interessen, ob man könnte sich ja auch einen Assistenten vorstellen, der genauso funktioniert wie heute. Und dann schieb ich 'n anderen Layer und einen anderen Algorithmus drüber und dann liefert er mir ganz anders optimierte Ergebnisse. Ja. Also dementsprechend das gemeinsame Tun und die Offenheit der Systeme. Das sind die 2 Grundvoraussetzungen. Okay. Und dann bräuchte man aber ja, müsste man sich dann irgendwie einigen auf son Werteset, sone Wertegrundausstattung? Also was ist denn Gemeinwohl? Das ist ja son son Begriff, den man so schnell dahin sagt und dann wird's schwer, ne? Die Frage haben wir befürchtet. In der Tat, das ist sehr schwer abgrenzbar. Ich glaub, man kann 'n paar Sachen ganz gut sagen. Also das eine ist Verfahrensaspekte. Juristinnen und Juristen würden von vormaler Gerechtigkeit reden, also das ist auch das formale Recht und gegenüber dem materiellen Recht. Also man braucht 'n Verfahren, es gemeinsam aushandeln zu können, was denn Gemeinwohl Orientierung ist. Und das Zweite ist, glaub ich, es gibt schon einen Grundset an Werten, die wir, glaub ich, alle teilen. Mhm. Also nicht gewaltsam zu werden oder die Umwelt zu schonen oder so was in der Richtung. So son son Basiskanon, auf die man sich einigen kann. Ja. So was wie Barrierefreiheit vielleicht auch Sicher, ja. Zum Beispiel. Ja. Ja. Ganz wichtiges Thema in dem Kontext. Okay. Also Inklusion und Teilhabe, aber auch beispielsweise die digitale Souveränität der Nutzenden auch zu unterstützen. Also im Sinne von, wie gehen meine Daten hin zum Beispiel auch? Genau. Ja, wir haben ja schon gesagt, also im im Sinne der Assistenten entstehen, ja ganz besonders interessant. Und dass ich da eben erst mal transparent mache, was für Daten erhebe ich, für welche Zwecke eigentlich so das das einmal 1 des Datenschutzes, aber dass ich eben auch Möglichkeiten habe, das irgendwie zu konfigurieren und einzustellen. Und ein weiterer Aspekt, dass diese Assistenten möglichst auch eher eher, handlungsserweiternd wirken sollten, statt meine Handlungsmöglichkeiten sehr eng zu begrenzen. Also Du hattest ja schon verschiedene Konfigurationsmöglichkeiten gesagt, hab ich jetzt nur die schnellste Route oder kann ich da auch noch andere Parameter vielleicht einstellen, die mir wichtig sind et cetera? Also hab ich da Möglichkeiten, meinen Handlungsspielraum selber auch 'n bisschen abzustecken oder nicht? Auch Transportmöglichkeiten. Wir bleiben immer so oft bei diesen Navigation Das ist so nice wie son Beispiel einfach, so wenn man da vieles dran veranschaulichen kann. Aber welche welche Transportmöglichkeiten werden mir da überhaupt angeboten? Also das ist auch immer ganz spannend auch in unserem Haushalt. Wenn wir dann vergleichen, ja, wie wie fahren wir denn? Und dann sag ich, ja guck mal, also mit dem Fahrrad brauchen wir fast gar nicht länger, aber eine Fahrradrouten sind gar nicht in allen Navigationsassistenten ja enthalten als Alternative, dann dann wird mir das gar nicht sichtbar. Und da gibt's ja auch Ja, es gibt ja auch andere Aspekte, die man da berücksichtigen könnte, Nachhaltigkeitsaspekte beispielsweise oder eben auch, genau, dass man vielleicht schaut, wie ist denn die Verkehrsauslastung? Man versucht, das 'n bisschen gleichmäßiger zu verteilen und eben nicht nur auf das Individuum, sondern auch son bisschen die Gesamtsicht einfach da auch mit berücksichtigt in der Planung, in dem Assistentennetzwerk. Ja. Und ich hab mich aber dann gefragt, also ist nicht, wenn man sagt, wir wollen da son Gemeinwohlansatz haben, ist es nicht auch 'n Stück weit wieder bevormunden oder inwieweit wollen die Leute das auch, ne? Also wollen die wirklich 'n Assistenten, bleiben wir beim Beispielverkehr, wo sie noch mal eine Auswahl treffen können zwischen, ja, ich will die gemeinwohlorientierte Route oder ich will sie nicht oder irgendwie Ja, aber einfach, wenn man Optionen hat, das deswegen meinte ich, diese Handlungsmöglichkeiten erweitern. Ich ich kann ja einfach in den Assistenten auch beides nebeneinander stellen und dann kann ich als Nutzer sagen, nee, aber auch genau, heute bin ich spät dran. Heute mal Da will ich auch in meinem Leben schnellste Route haben oder ich sehe dann, ja okay, aber die Route hat andere Vorteile, aus welchen Gründen auch immer und warum nicht? Dann fahr ich doch die heute und dann kann ich ja, wenn ich dann darüber informiert bin, dann kann ich auch eine mündige Entscheidung treffen. Wenn wir wieder bei einem großen Mediastionsanbieter bleiben wollen, da sehe ich ja, was ist denn vielleicht die schnellste Route und welche Route spart vielleicht Benzin? So wird das dann ja angegeben, aber gleichzeitig ja auch CO2 beispielsweise. Ja. Was ich dann auch spannend finde, warum das so benannt wird und nicht anders benannt wird und Du meinst, warum da Benzin steht und nicht CO2? Genau. Ja. Ob das dann vielleicht doch, ob die Individualinteressen dann da doch 'n bisschen stärker Der Geldbeutel Genau, dass man eher an den Geldbeutel hängt und nicht so sehr an das Klima oder das Meer zieht. Fänd ich mal ganz spannend, ob das tatsächlich der Grund ist, warum das da so gekennzeichnet wird. Ich hab noch 2 Sachen im Kopf. Das eine ist, wir gehen immer so die ganze Zeit davon aus, dass Individual- und Gemeinwohl- und Profitinteressen oder kann ja andere Unternehmensinteressen sein, sich immer widersprechen müssen. Das muss ja gar nicht so sein. Wenn man in die Frühzeit der Navigationssysteme denkt, da da die waren ja auch nur optimiert auf schnell Vorankommen, die dann dazu geführt haben, dass immer mitm Stau da war, die Entlastungsstrecken völlig überfüllt waren. Also die Weil alle dasselbe gemacht haben sozusagen, ne. Mit dem Versuch, individuell zu optimieren, dann halt sowohl individuell als auch für die Gemeinschaft zu einem schlechten Ergebnis gekommen sind. Da sieht man, dass man auf der richtigen Datenbasis, das ist die Grundvoraussetzung, in dem Fall Verkehrsdaten natürlich, Also erst mal die die Datenbasis schaffen muss, diese Variabilität in den Zielrichtung überhaupt schaffen zu können oder auch sinnvolle Optimierungen möglich zu machen. Also das Wheelmap Wheelmap Beispiel, was dabei ist, also wenn ich Da geht's barrierefreien Zugang von Raul Kauthausen, ne, also unter anderem mehr. Genau. Also das ist zum Beispiel ein Layer, der ganz klar, wenn ich den brauche, dann komm ich ohne den, krieg ich aber kein sinnvolles Ergebnis. Ja. Was das denn? Und sind da doch wieder bei Navigation. Und und das ist 'n Layer, den konnte ich über andere Kartenanbieter drüber legen. Das wär sozusagen, weil die Frage ist ja, ne, die Leute haben gewohnte Nutzer Routen, die sie längs gehen, Apps, die sie installiert haben und die Frage ist ja, wie käme man da überhaupt ran, ne? Ja, ja, ja. Also in diese Nutzungsroutine rein. Ist ja letztlich 'n Layer von Open Street Map. Kann man da ja auch wunderbar benutzen, nur halt, wenn ich ausnahmsweise mal mitm Kinderwagen unterwegs bin, dann kenne ich das vielleicht nicht und dann Hab ich dasselbe Interesse, aber weiß nicht davon. Na ja. Die Interessen können divergieren, die divergieren sicherlich auch punktuell, aber es ist nicht immer 'n Widerspruch, sondern insgesamt hab ich ja auch was davon, wenn, bin ich doch wieder bei Verkehrsflüssen, wenn die Verkehrsflüsse in der Stadt insgesamt optimiert werden, hab ich da ja spätestens, also im Mittel-, Lang, Öl kurz langfristig gesagt, spätestens am nächsten Tag ja auch was von, wenn der Verkehr insgesamt besser fließt. Das klingt jetzt total einleuchtend. Das klingt so einleuchtend, dass ich mir denk, das müssen doch schon Leute machen. Also gut, diese Wheelmap gibt's schon, aber gibt's denn, ich weiß nicht, Städte zum Beispiel, die solche Ansätze schon fahren? Also die son, weiß ich nicht, urbanen Assistenten haben, der so Gemeinwohlansätze berücksichtigt. Jetzt fällt mir wieder eine Navigation ein. Ja, weil's Es ist vielleicht auch sehr naiv natürlich. 'N Beispiel, das wir auch in dem Whitepaper haben, was natürlich schon son bisschen zurückliegt, war ja, da geht's aber mehr darum, wie kann ich die Daten von solchen Assistenten vielleicht auch nutzen als Verwaltung oder für gemeinwohlorientierte Zwecke? Und da war die Corona Warn App und darauf basierend die Möglichkeiten von Datenspenden. War ein Beispiel, wie gesagt, ist schon 'n bisschen her, aber ganz spannend, dass da ja einfach Leute bereitwillig ihre Daten zur Verfügung gestellt haben, auch ganz regelmäßig, dann einfach der Wissenschaft zu ermöglichen, dieses ganze Infektionsgeschehen und und wo tut sich da was und was sind vielleicht auch Faktoren, die eine Rolle spielen, auf 'ner ganz großen Datenbasis auch analysieren zu können. Und ich glaub, das ist auch son Aspekt, den wir jetzt noch gar nicht angesprochen haben, dass natürlich im Sinne des Gemeinwohls oder speziell für die öffentliche Verwaltung auch diese ganzen Daten natürlich auch interessant sein können. Ja. Nicht nur für die Unternehmen, die dann irgendwelche Geschäftsmodelle auf dieser Basis entwickeln oder anbieten, sondern eben auch für die öffentliche Verwaltung selbst im Sinne von Stadtplanung, Verkehrsplanung, aber auch zur Förderung der öffentlichen Gesundheit oder auch im Bereich Katastrophenschutz. Also da kann man sich verschiedenste Szenarien vorstellen, für die solche Daten auch sehr wertvoll sein können. Ja. Und da könnte man natürlich überlegen, ja, wäre das nicht Win win, wenn öffentliche Verwaltung und solche Anbieter von digitalen Assistenten sich mehr austauschen würden, stärker zusammenarbeiten würden? Einfach, weil die öffentliche Verwaltung hat sehr, sehr viele Daten, die in vielen Fällen noch nicht so zur Verfügung stehen oder noch nicht so genutzt werden oder auch werden können. Und auf der anderen Seite können diese Daten aber auch ganz wertvoll sein für die öffentliche Verwaltung, ja, Herausforderungen, die wir einfach haben, gesellschaftlich besser adressieren zu können. Und da ist Katastrophenschutz son wunderbares Beispiel. Ja. Du lässt sich ja auch so schlecht trainieren und dann kann man vielleicht mit diesen Daten, jetzt bin ich wieder bei Navigation, aber bei Fluchtwegen zum Beispiel. Ja, erklär mal genau, wie das vor, ich steh da grad aufm Schlauch. Wie würde das funktionieren im Fall von Katastrophen? Na ja, aber wenn ich irgendetwas, irgend ein Naturereignis oder sonst irgendwas mitmontiert oder so was habe und einfach nur ganz schnell ganz viele Leute irgendwo rauskriegen muss zum Beispiel. Dann ist, haben wir ja häufig immer das Problem, also klar, Fluchthinweisschilder oder sonst irgendwas, wenn's wenn's 'n Veranstaltungsort ist. Aber da haben wir ja häufig das Problem, dass man diese Personen ganz gezielt steuern müsste. Das ist 'n klassischer Fall von Entscheidungsunterstützung. Mhm. Also geh jetzt links rum und nie rechts. Weil links stehen die Leute schon in der Schlange und rechts ist noch alles frei. Und das war 'n wunderbares Anwendungsfeld für einen öffentlich relevant, höchst relevanten digitalen Assistenten Wo man Standortdaten hätte, möglich und dann damit irgendwie sehr gut den Leuten helfen könnte immer teilweise dann. Mhm. Genau, dass man auch wüsste, wo halten sich Personen überhaupt auf oder wo planen sie vielleicht, sich aufzuhalten und gibt es da keine Ahnung Unwetterwarnungen, die für sie relevant sein könnten oder letztlich auch, wo sind vielleicht Personen, die noch gerettet werden müssen? Ja. Also in dem Umfeld kann man sich, glaube ich, ganz vieles denken, bei denen solche Daten, die an Vietochonds Digital Assistenten haben, nützlich sein könnten. Ich hab einen Begriff noch mitgenommen aus diesem Whitepaper. Das ist heißt physische Filterblasen. Also wir kennen ja dieses Phänomen der Filterblasen, dass eben Social Media Algorithmen uns immer mehr Beiträge reinspülen in die Timeline von Dingen, die uns schon interessieren. Und interessanterweise kann's sowas auch geben, wenn ich zum Beispiel in der Stadt unterwegs bin und ich denk, na, ich würde jetzt gern was essen oder ich bin neu in der Stadt, wo ist 'n hier was los? Und da gibt's jetzt zum Beispiel sone Funktion, die einem Center of Interest vorschlägt und das in einem im zweiten Fall ist es 'n Einkaufsset rum. Also das das finde ich auch 'n interessanten, also es geht noch mal 'n bisschen weiter als diese Verkehrsthematik, über die wir gesprochen haben, ne, weil's weil's ja da reingeht, wie bewegen wir uns überhaupt in der Stadt? Wie werden wir da geleitet? Und das könnte man sich ja gemeinwohlorientiert auch ganz anders vorstellen. Ja. Wir haben den Gedanken ja versucht, mit dem Vorwort son bisschen aufzugreifen, also Individualtouristen, die sich dann alle immer wieder treffen und den immer wieder Auf den ganz geheimen Stränden. Genau. Geheimtipp, jetzt ganz große Geheimtipps für diesen Reiseführer. Und son bisschen ist es da mit diesem Zentrum ja eigentlich da, wo man hingehen soll, da wo was los ist, ist es natürlich auch. Da hat man immer das Risiko, dass diese Dinger an interessengeleitet sind. Also. Also wirtschaftliche Interessen geleitet, ne. Da schalten ja Leute letztendlich Anzeigen in zum Beispiel Google Maps. Zum Beispiel. Das wär ja ein Indikator, den man zugrunde liegt, könnte wer die meisten Anzeigen geschaltet. Und da haben wir dann das Stadtzentrum hin. Ein Aspekt, den wir ja auch noch nicht so sehr hatten, ist diese Personalisierung des Ganzen. Mhm. Also sprich, wenn ich immer zum Italiener gehe, in einem Beispiel zu bleiben, dann werd ich wahrscheinlich durch meinen Assistenten nicht dazu gebracht, jetzt asiatisch essen zu gehen, sondern ich bleibe in meiner Auch Filterblase auf 'ner Art, ne. Meine Essensfilterblase. Genau. Die dann halt doch mal darüber hinausgeht, was ich in Social Media und so was erlebe. Ja. Genau oder Veranstaltungen, die ich in der Vergangenheit besucht habe, wenn die wieder anstehen, dass ich darauf hingewiesen werde und das ist irgendwie Natürlich ist das irgendwie nett, aber es ist ja auch schade, wenn ich dann immer nur wieder mehr von dem gleichen mache, was ich in der Vergangenheit auch schon gemacht habe. Also da irgendwie dann auch gar nicht mehr so richtig rauskomme. Ja und dann wär der Gemeinwohlansatz, ich weiß nicht, könnte das dann so was sein wie, guck mal, hier ist eine öffentliche Bibliothek, da musst Du nichts zahlen, da könntest Du hingehen oder also was wie könnten diese Filterblasen aufgebrochen werden im Sinne des Gemeinwohls so? Also das Beispiel ist schon gar nicht schlecht, dass man eben auch alternative Angebote und grade auch Angebote, wo irgendwie Gemeinschaft, Nachbarschaftshilfe oder auch andere Aspekte, wo's staatliche Unterstützungsangebote gibt et cetera, auch enthalten sind und auch sichtbar sind. Mhm. Denn das ist ja gerade die Sache im Sinne der ich ich reduziere Komplexität, werden ja ganz viele Daten und Informationen einfach komplett ausgeblendet und dass man eben solche Angebote aber wieder sichtbar macht. Das heißt ja nicht, dass ich die nutze oder dass ich die brauche, aber ich weiß, dass sie da sind, weil sie eben sichtbar sind, weil sie nicht einfach unter den Tisch gefallen sind, wie das ja häufig dann der Fall ist in solchen Assistenten. Ja. Ja, ist eigentlich 'n interessanter Gedanke, ne? Oder dass man sagt, okay, Du hast heute Abend Zeit, geh zu diesem Konzert oder geh doch mal ins Nachbarschaftshaus, die haben den Reparierststammtisch oder so was, ne. Also einfach eine es geht eine Gleichwertigkeit im Prinzip von solchen Angeboten, die halt auch nicht kommerziell sind. Genau und da da ist ja genau die Krux. Jetzt haben wir da so einen Assistenten, der mein mir meine Entscheidung vorbereiten soll. Und und jetzt sagen wir, so sollen wir aber auch nicht vorbereiten. Und so sehr soll er meine eigenen Interessen auch nicht berücksichtigen. Genau da ist die Krux. Und da ist dann halt die Frage der Offenheit, die Frage der, was wird aufgenommen? Mhm. Was kann ich für Einstellungsmöglichkeiten? Noch mal drüber gesprochen, auch ein klassisches Thema in jeder in jeder IT Anwendung, was sind die Default Einstellungen? Also werd ich per Default werde ich zur zur Bücherei geleitet oder halt eben zum Einkaufszentrum. Ja, also kann ich zum Beispiel 'n Haken setzen bei, ich hab gar kein Geld und außerdem brauche ich barrierefrei. Was mach ich jetzt sozusagen? Na ja, also es klingt's, aber ist ja ist ja für viele Leute die Realität auch, ne. Also Das das auf jeden Fall, aber auch noch 'n Schritt vorher. Was ist, bevor ich den ersten Haken gesetzt habe, wo werd ich da hingeleitet? Das ist ja auch den wichtigen Fall. Ja. Okay, aber wie kann man das denn umsetzen? Also welche Rolle könnte auch vielleicht die öffentliche Verwaltung dabei spielen, die ja einfach groß ist und auch 'n Impact hat, diesen Gemeinwohlansatz bei digitalen Assistenten selbstverständlicher zu machen, mehr durchzusetzen. Jetzt kommen wir wunderbar auf eine Frage von eben, die ich noch erst halt beantwortet habe zurückkommen. Natürlich auf allen 3 Ebenen. Also bei den Daten und auch bei der Datenschaffung, das ist so, Nicole, hast Du eben auch schon gesagt. Ja. Also bei den Daten, bei der Verengung, bei der Kontextualisierung und bei den Vorentscheidungsalgorithmen auf allen 3 Ebenen. Die Datenebene ist noch, soll man sagen, relativ zugänglich, öffentliche Daten zugänglich machen. Genau, hatten wir auch, also ist ja, haben wir auch ganz oft im Podcast schon gehabt, ne, Genau. Als Thema, ja. Genau. Das ist ja das Schöne bei dem Thema. Man man entdeckt viele Themen, die man schon mal hatte, jetzt konzentriert auf eine Fragestellung, auf ein ein, ja, immer bedeutsamer werdendes Phänomen. Ja, aber darüber eben auch hinaus. Ja, manchmal weiterhin. Irgendwann wir ganz kurz bei den Daten natürlich andersrum, dann natürlich auch die Daten möglichst der Unternehmen in irgendeiner Form für andere Unternehmen, für Initiativen, für zivilgesellschaftliche Organisationen zugänglich machen in irgendeiner Form. Das ist auf diesem auf diesen Datenlayer, würd ich's mal nennen, der entscheidende Punkt. Ja. Glaub ich. Genau und dann gibt's natürlich auch noch 'n paar weitere Aspekte oder wenn man das weiterdenken möchte, dass das natürlich auch die Möglichkeit gibt, Anreize zu schaffen über Förderprogramme beispielsweise oder über Siegel, die man schaffen könnte, dass eben Gemeinwohlaspekte auch stärker berücksichtigt werden oder dass es erst mal 'n Rahmen dafür gibt, wie kann ich überhaupt Gemeinwohlaspekte stärker berücksichtigen? Wie kann ich das stärker integrieren? Ja, die Forschung mehr zu fördern, dass es dass es Kriterien gibt, während des Metriken beispielsweise, ich werde nicht so tief in die Erstthema reingehen. Ich glaube, das sprengt den Rahmen son bisschen. Also, dass man erst mal dafür sorgt, dass es 'n Rahmen dafür gibt und das auch in Förderprogramm berücksichtigt und vielleicht auch so was schafft wie Siegel, an denen man sich dann orientieren kann und dann weiß, aha, das ist nicht nur auf Profit maximiert jetzt diese Anwendung, sondern die berücksichtigt auch andere Aspekte und dann kommt die mir und meinen Interessen ja vielleicht 'n bisschen mehr entgegen. Ja, also das eine wär mehr mit Blick auf die Entwicklung, also die Förderprogramme und die Standards und das andere wär dann mit mehr mit Blick auf die Verbraucherinnen und Verbraucher, dass die eben einfach transparent gucken können, okay, in dem digitalen Assistenten ist Gemeinwohl drin und in dem nicht, oder? Das oder ich hab's jetzt Entschuldigung, ich finde, ich mach das immer so einfach hier, aber Ja, ich find's ja super, genau. Ja, natürlich. Also son Siegel würde er zumindest mal dafür sprechen, dass es eine Chance gibt, dass Gemeinwohl drinsteckt. Den Aspekt darf man natürlich auch nicht vergessen. Du hast ja eben gefragt, was ist Gemeinwohl? Das ist ja immer etwas schwierig zu fassen. Mhm. Also sprich, man braucht immer auch die Verfahrensseite, die dann zum Beispiel, also wenn man beim Tourismus bleiben kann ich mir das hervorragend vorstellen, dass eine Gemeinschaft darüber diskutiert, was wollen wir denn unseren Gästen zeigen Ja. In der Stadt. Ist das jetzt das Einkaufszentrum? Ist das die Bibliothek oder die alte Kirche oder ich weiß es nicht, keine Ahnung. Das wäre ja durchaus auch eine Möglichkeit, dass man sich dann von von Einheimischen leiten lässt in seinem Ja, ist eigentlich 'n ganz großer Gedanke, ne. Dann setzen sich alle in Berlin mal hin und sagen, nee, die sollen auch mal alle nach Moabit gehen und nicht immer nur nach Kreuz Köln, die Touristen. Zum Beispiel. Ja. Also im Wedding kenn ich einige schöne, wo Flecken. Okay. Vielleicht blicken wir noch mal 'n bisschen in die Zukunft. Also was was sind denn so Treiber? Also wir haben jetzt diesen Status quo mit vielen Sensoren, wir haben die Smart Speaker, die Entwicklung in der KI. Also mir fällt's immer schwer, mir außerhalb des Status quo vorzustellen, wohin könnte das noch gehen mit den digitalen Assistenten Assistenten und wohin wo könnten dann auch die Möglichkeiten liegen, ne, also damit einhergehend. Was sind denn so die nächsten großen Schritte würdet ihr sagen? Also diese Verschmelzung im Prinzip von verschiedenen Anwendungen zusammen zu sonem All inclusive Assistenten, der einem dann bei allem hilft bei der Verkehrsführung und beim nicht zu lange Sitzen und bei allem, oder? Die 2 Entwicklung kann man ja jetzt schon beobachten. Das eine ist genau diese Verschmelzung. Eine Sprachschnittstelle im Zweifel mittlerweile, die man hat, die dann halt mir alle Fragen beantwortet. Und das andere ist, die Entscheidung dann tatsächlich auf den Assistenten zu übertragen. Mhm. Also buch mir das Ticket oder so was in der Richtung. Also gar nicht mehr der die Entscheidungsunterstützung zu nehmen und dann wie auch immer hinterfragen oder nicht. Ich schlage mir Tickets vor, sondern Genau. Buchs mir. Ja. Dann dem zu folgen. Das sind sicherlich 2 Sachen, die man schon wunderbar absehen kann. Genau und das andere natürlich, dass digitale Assistenten immer präsenter werden, was genau durch verschiedene Aspekte getrieben ist, durch steigende Komplexität, durch eine immer größere Datenverfügbarkeit, dadurch, dass immer mehr Prozesse einfach auch ins Digitale ja wandern. Digitale Verwaltung erfreulicherweise ja sogar auch, dass auch da meine Prozesse zunehmend digital sind. Genau und dass deshalb solche digitalen Assistenten ja potenziell auch immer mächtiger werden, weil sie einfach immer mehr Aspekte meines Lebens, immer mehr Entscheidungen in meinem Alltag bestimmen, einfach son ständiger Begleiter sind. Was dann vielleicht auch noch verstärkt wird, kommt doch noch mal auf unseren ganzen Kurzbeispiel zurück. Ich könnt ja sagen, ja gut, den Blick zur Arbeit, den fahr ich jeden Tag, da brauch ich ja auch keine Navigationsapp, da fahr ich einfach, Aber was ist, wenn das jetzt selbstfahrende Autos sind? Da kann man ja schon erwarten, dass die halt permanent auf Assistenz, auf guten Optimierung angewiesen sind. Das heißt, dass es auch da einfach immer umfassender, immer immer weit greifender wird und deshalb finden wir's ja auch so wichtig, dass man sich jetzt, wo diese Verbreitung immer mehr steigt, Gedanken darüber macht, was sind dann eigentlich die Werteinschreibungen? Was sind denn eigentlich die Interessen, die die Gestaltung dieser Assistenten leiten und die letztlich dann ja, hab ich schon gesagt, unsere Wahrnehmung unserer Umwelt, aber auch unsere Handlungen und letztlich damit auch unsere Gemeinschaft prägen. Und dass man sich darüber mal Gedanken macht und sich überlegt, wie könnte es vielleicht auch anders gehen? Wie könnte es vielleicht auch besser sein für unser Gemeinwesen? Also jetzt wär 'n guter Moment, würdest Du sagen, also wo man Weichen noch stellen kann, aber eben schon absieht, dass sind auch wirklich, werden wichtige Weichen sein sozusagen. Ganz genau. Ja. Nach dem wunderbaren Schlusswort hab ich jetzt noch 2 Kleinigkeiten, die können wir loswerden. Kann schon das Schlusswort? Langes Schlusswort. Ich wollt dann auch noch sagen, Mike, was was mich so beeindruckt hat, ist, dass ja, wir haben jetzt immer digitale Assistenten gesagt, manche sagen auch Digital Companions, also was ja wie sone Art, weiß ich nicht, Wegbegleiter oder Bunny, ne, Freund sein kann, die wären ja auch immer Anthropomorfer. Das ist ja auch eine Sache, ne? Ist Ist es das, was Du sagen wolltest, meins? Das war mein zweiter Punkt, ja. Aratom drin. Mein erster, aber es hängt beides eng zusammen, meine erster ist, der Aspekt, den wir auch noch nicht so beleuchtet haben, ist Proaktivität. Also Du sagst, meine Routinenweg zur Arbeit, da brauche ich ja keinen Assistenten, Da bin ich mir nicht sicher. Also es gibt ja schon so so Kalender, die mir dann sagen, oh, heute ist viel Verkehr, starte 'n bisschen schneller. Ist ja schon. Proaktiv werd ich dann darauf hingewiesen und wer weiß, ich mach normalerweise genau diesen Weg und muss dann oder kann dann darauf reagieren. Das bedeutet aber auch, dass ich ständig antitschbar sein muss und empfänglich sein muss für diesen Assistenten. Und man hat ja schon gesagt, mit Brille haben wir viel überlegt damals, in dem Fahrrad sich nicht so durch Ich bin mir nicht sicher, wo da die Reise hingeht. Ich glaube, der Trend ist genau da, wo Du's grade beschrieben hast. Es wird immer körpernäher. Ja. Aber wo es letztlich endet, ich als Brillenträger hätte nichts gegen Brille, aber trau ich mich jetzt nicht mehr. Wir haben aber letztens auch eine Folge gemacht zu Mixed Reality Ja. Zu Brillen. Vielleicht haben sie ein Comeback, wir wissen's nicht. Ja, danke euch beiden. Heute ging's digitale Assistenten, eine Live Folge von der Smart Country Convention. Schön, dass ihr da Assistenten, eine Live Folge von der Smart Country Convention. Schön, dass ihr dabei wart. Vielen Dank dir. Danke dir. Das war Restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT als Liveaufzeichnung von der Smart Country Convention. Mit dabei waren Nicole Opiella und Doktor Mike Weber. Und die passende Publikation zu dem Thema, das Whitepaper mit dem Namen das Gemeinwohlpotenzial digitaler Assistenten, das gibt's online unter öfid Punkt d e mit u e geschrieben. Wenn ihr uns gerne zugehört habt, dann empfehlt den Podcast weiter. Und wenn ihr's noch nicht getan habt, könnt ihr uns abonnieren kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple und allerlei weiteren Portalen. Ich sag tschüs, bis zum nächsten Mal dann wieder ganz klassisch aus dem Studio. Ich bin Franziska Walser. Bis bald.",
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            "paragraphs": {
              "transcript": "\nSpeaker 0: Kennen Sie den Begriff Over Choice? Falls Sie den nicht kennen, dann kennen Sie aber bestimmt das Gefühl, dass damit beschrieben wird, und zwar das Gefühl, einfach zu viele Optionen zu haben, aus denen man auswählen kann. Also zum Beispiel welchen Podcast soll ich hören? Wohin soll ich in den Urlaub fahren? Soll ich einen Regenschirm mit nach draußen nehmen?\n\nWir haben ganz oft die Qual der Wahl und es ist natürlich verlockend, sich nicht selber zu quälen, sondern jemanden mit unendlicher Geduld und unendlichem Wissen wie zum Beispiel einen digitalen Assistenten. Google Germany gibt's da ChatGPT oder Alexa. So weit, so harmlos, aber wie ist es im größeren Kontext? Was passiert, wenn wir uns von digitalen Assistenten durchs Leben navigieren lassen? Welche gesamtgesellschaftlichen Auswirkungen hat es zum Beispiel, wenn ich der Empfehlung des Routenplaners folge und, ein paar Minuten schneller zu sein, durch ein Wohngebiet fahre?\n\nIm Moment dienen digitale Assistenten vor allem den individuellen Interessen von Nutzerinnen und nicht zu vergessen, auch den wirtschaftlichen Interessen von großen Digitalunternehmen. In unserem öFIT Podcast stellen wir heute Ansätze vor, wie's anders gehen könnte, wie digitale Assistenten auch den Gemeinwohl nutzen können, zum Beispiel im Einsatz für die öffentliche Verwaltung. Und wenn Sie sich grade schon wundern, warum wir heute so anders klingen als sonst, wir sind mit dieser Ausgabe zu Gast bei der Smart Country Convention in Berlin. Das ist also eine Live Folge von Restart digital, in neuer Umgebung, aber mit vertrauten Stimmen. Und zwar mit mir, Franziska Walser und mit meinen beiden Co Hosts, diesmal beide anwesend und zwar Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT, kurz öFIT.\n\nHallo, Nicole. Hallo, Franziska. Und Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und ebenfalls stellvertretender Leiter des öFIT. Hallo, Mike.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo Franziska.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie habt ihr euch denn hier aufs Podium durchgeschlagen? Mit Assistenz oder ohne? Hattet ihr vielleicht einen kleinen Routenplaner zum Beispiel zur Hilfe? Also ich bin zum Beispiel, ich bin mit Uber gefahren und ganz eindeutig ist die Route vorgegeben worden von 'nem Assistenten, weil ich bin in Straßen längs gefahren, da bin ich noch nie längst gefahren.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab tatsächlich auch 'n weitbekannten Kartendienst genutzt, rauszufinden, zu welcher S-Bahnstation ich muss, ob Nord oder Süd oder wie auch immer. Das ist schon ganz faszinierend. Also einerseits ist es natürlich eine totale Vereinfachung, hab dann mit den Sätzen gesehen, dass ich viel länger brauche, als ich eigentlich geplant hatte. Andererseits sieht man dadran schon, wie der das Verhalten so ein bisschen lenkt. Ich hatte dann, im Auto hätte ich eine Viertelstunde gebraucht, mit öffentlichen eine Dreiviertelstunde.\n\nAllein in dieser Angabe ist das\n\nSpeaker 0: Dass man das schon nebeneinander sieht, ne? Ist schon bisschen nudging, ja. Genau. Und Du, Nicole?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, ich bin hab ja auch eine etwas weitere Anreise gehabt und bis hierher dann auch mit Navigationsassistenten durchgeschlagen. Hier in den Hallen hätte ich mir tatsächlich auch noch eine Indoor Navigation ein bisschen gewünscht, aber wir haben's gefunden und sind hier. Das ist schon mal gut.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab son bisschen geguckt bei der Vorbereitung, also wo ich virtuelle Assistenten nutze. Ich hab zum Beispiel eine Smartwatch, die sagt immer, steh auf, wenn ich zu lang am Schreibtisch sitze oder ich hab 'n Textprogramm, das fliegt mir dann elegantere Formulierungen vor, die kann ich nehmen oder kann ich nicht nehmen. Das sind ja jetzt sehr spezialisierte und total einfache Anwendungen, im Prinzip auch dieses Kartenzeug, über das wir grade geredet haben. Aber der Trend geht ja in Richtung universelle Assistenzsysteme und die können natürlich dann vorstellbar noch viel mehr, ne. Was denn zum Beispiel?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also Du hast es ja schon erwähnt, wir haben Assistenten in den verschiedensten Bereichen. Da kann's darum gehen, dass ich mir auf meine Gesundheit achten möchte. Wie schlafe ich? Wie viel bewege ich mich? Wie ist mein Medienkonsum?\n\nDann haben wir welche, die uns eher bei Navigation helfen, aber auch in anderen Bereichen und die Assistenten basieren ja auf sehr großen Datenmengen und da gibt's natürlich schon die Tendenz zu sagen, ja gut, vielleicht weitet man das jetzt noch aus und versucht, ihnen angrenzenden Geschäftsfelder sozusagen vorzustoßen. Also genau, wenn ich jetzt bei bei Gesundheit bleibe, dann kann ich da vielleicht auch noch Wohlbefinden oder Sport oder andere Sachen einfach mit integrieren, dass ich dann auch meine Fitnessscores teilen kann. Und dass es quasi immer son bisschen größer wird, immer 'n bisschen wächst, noch mehr Nutzen zu bieten für die Nutzenden natürlich in meiner App, aber auch natürlich neue Kunden zu erschließen. Denn die Assistenten, die wir nutzen, in den meisten Fällen sind die natürlich profitgetrieben und von Unternehmen und die haben natürlich 'n Interesse daran, ihre Kundenbasis ständig zu erweitern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, es gibt im Prinzip 2 Profitierende, also der Mensch, der sich's einfach machen will im Leben und dann Unternehmen, was eine Dienstleistung bereitstellt, aber das natürlich auch nicht aus reinem irgendwie nicht selbstlos und uneigennützig tut, sondern was ist sozusagen der Gegendeal? Also warum gibt's diese Systeme und wir können sie nutzen? Also, was haben die Unternehmen davon, meine ich?\n\nSpeaker 2: Die Unternehmen haben natürlich immer mehr Daten zur Verfügung über die Nutzenden. Wie verhalten sie sich? Wann stehen sie morgens auf? An welchen Orten halten sie sich auf? Wofür interessieren sie sich?\n\nAlso da können immer mehr Daten genutzt werden, dann natürlich weitere Angebote drauf zu bauen, ob das jetzt Werbung ist oder ja, dass ich eben die Profile der Nutzenden ständig erweitern kann. Und da haben wir natürlich irgendwie auch vielleicht schon son ersten Konflikt. Ich nutze das Ganze natürlich, weil ich da für mich als Nutzer irgendeinen, ja, einen Benefit drinsehe, dass ich irgendwo schneller bin, dass ich das Gefühl habe, ich achte mehr auf meine Gesundheit. Das Unternehmen hat ja natürlich ganz andere Interessen, nämlich eher Gewinnmaximierung. Also da haben wir schon sone erste Konfliktlinie und was wir ja ganz spannend finden, was eigentlich bisher noch wenig beachtet wird, ist, was ist eigentlich mit gesellschaftlichen Aspekten Das wär\n\nSpeaker 0: ja noch was Drittes, ne, genau. Wir haben\n\nSpeaker 2: ja 'n Interesse,\n\nSpeaker 0: weil ich Genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: Konfliktlinie eigentlich. Das steht einerseits vielleicht diesem Profitinteresse entgegen, aber andererseits vielleicht auch meinem Individualinteresse. Du hattest in deiner Intro das schon son bisschen gesagt. Also ich möchte vielleicht möglichst schnell von a nach b kommen und das wollen vielleicht auch alle individuell natürlich, aber was passiert denn, wenn dann plötzlich alle durch son Wohngebiet durchfahren? Das war ja eigentlich nicht so intendiert.\n\nEigentlich stattplanerisch oder von der Verkehrsleitung her möchte man natürlich lieber, dass die Leute die Ausfallstraßen, die Umgebungsstraßen rundherum nutzen, dass der Verkehr ja eher aus Wohngebieten rausgedrängt wird, damit man da weniger Lärm hat, weniger Luftverschmutzung, eine geringere Unfallgefahr. Ja, und da hat man eben dann diese verschiedensten Konfliktlinien und das finden wir ganz spannend, einfach mal darüber nachzudenken, ob digitale Assistenten nicht auch genutzt werden könnten, das Gemeinwohl eher zu fördern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, sehr spannend. Da müssen wir auch nachher noch mal drüber reden, wie man die Leute dann dazu kriegt, das zu nutzen, weil möglicherweise genau, ist eben mein Eigeninteresse nicht das Gemeinwohlinteresse, zumindest nicht kurzfristig, langfristig dann vielleicht ja schon.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und wie kann auch die Motivation dann aufrechterhalten werden?\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau. Und wenn ich\n\nSpeaker 2: jetzt sage, okay, das dient jetzt gar nicht mehr primär meinem Interesse nur, sondern da sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr so stark im Vordergrund, wie es vielleicht mal war. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Jetzt gibt's ja digitale Assistenten nicht erst seit gestern und deswegen könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass es da schon 'n paar Anwendungen gibt, wie das genutzt wird im Kontext von öffentlichen Verwaltungen oder Smart Cities oder so was. Habt ihr da 'n Beispiel? Also wird das schon genutzt?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das, was man jetzt beobachten kann, ist, dass diese Assistenten, Nicole hat sie eben beschrieben, aus der Perspektive des Unternehmens heraus, aber auch aus 'ner technischen Perspektive, ja immer mächtiger werden, auf ganz unterschiedliche Art und Weisen uns diese Desinformation bereitstellen können. Und da ist natürlich im Bereich Smart City, im Bereich gemeinsame Ressourcennutzung, gibt es in der Tat schon eine Anwendung, die das dann ausnutzen. Aber das Spannende ist halt, dass es immer umfassender wird. Ja. Also gar nicht so sehr auf die einzelne Anwendung, sondern diese Entscheidungsunterstützung oder diese Entlastung von Entscheidungssituationen, da spielt eben eine größere Rolle dabei.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, und möglicherweise auch, also das ist ja auch 'n Spektrum von, leg der mir nur nahe, nimm mal das Auto und oder nimm die öffentlichen Verkehrsmittel oder entscheide dir das für mich, weil's einfach eine Anwendung ist, die einfach schon Vorentscheidungen trifft, ne, was natürlich auch bequem sein kann, aber natürlich auch eine Form von Selbstwirksamkeit wegnimmt dann.\n\nSpeaker 1: Das ist ja 'n Phänomen, das wir bei ganz vielen Sachen, auch bei anderen entscheidungsunterstützenden Systemen oder bei anderen Nudging Systemen haben. Die Frage, inwieweit das einfach nur eine zusätzliche Information ist oder inwieweit das handlungsleitend wird und genau dadrauf, das ist dann die zweite eher technische Neuerung in dem Geschäft, genau dadrauf zielen wir ab. Also es ist ja ganz gezielt Entscheidungsentlastung zu fördern, ganz gezielt handlungsleitend zu sein. Das zeichnet Sie ja grade aus. Ja.\n\nUnd je besser Sie das können, desto mehr übernehmen Sie die faktische Entscheidung, ja.\n\nSpeaker 2: Also ich nutze sie ja grade, weil die Informationsflut oder die Datenflut so groß ist und das einfach unglaublich schwierig ist für mich dann zu erkennen, was ist denn jetzt vielleicht die Beste? Ich möchte schon verschiedene Handlungsoptionen dann haben, also jemand hat das für mich schon einmal runtergebrochen auf verschiedene Alternativen, aber das heißt, das ist natürlich nur ein Ausschnitt der Realität. Da fehlen natürlich ganz viele Aspekte. Das ist ganz begrenzt nur, was mir da angezeigt wird und manche Alternativen sehe ich dann vielleicht auch einfach nicht und nehme sie dann auch nicht wahr. Mhm.\n\nAlso das das ist quasi zweierlei, genau. Auf der einen Seite, dass es auf 1, dass es handlungsleitend wirkt, aber eben auch meine Wahrnehmung leitet. 1 meiner Lieblingsbeispiele ist, wenn ich eine Freundin in Frankfurt besuche und dann zu ihr nach Hause navigieren möchte, dann stehe ich da manchmal und denke, ja, das kann doch gar nicht sein, dass ich da so lange mit der S-Bahn brauche, das ist doch gar nicht so weit weg, was daran liegt, dass nämlich die U-Bahn-Verbindung nicht angezeigt wird, weil die Daten nicht zur Verfügung stehen, auch auf den Schnitt stellen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Dem großen öffentlichen Kartenanbieter, in denen Genau, das ist\n\nSpeaker 2: 'n anderer Anbieter und die Daten werden nicht offen zur Verfügung gestellt und wenn ich nicht weiß, dass es eine U-Bahn-Verbindung gibt, dann nehme ich halt die S-Bahn und bin sehr lange unterwegs, weil das dann überhaupt nicht in meiner Wahrnehmung ist, dass es da eine Alternative begebe. Ja. Also es beschränkt auch, wie wir die Welt wahrnehmen und natürlich auch, wie wir uns darin verhalten. Du hattest diese kleinen Beispiele genannt, da werden Textvorschläge gemacht oder steh doch mal auf vom Schreibtisch und so weiter und das Phänomen, was wir beobachten, ist ja, dass man häufig diesen Empfehlungen dann folgt. Das wird dann ja Automation Bias genannt, dass man, ja, das ist eine maschinelle Entscheidung und\n\nSpeaker 0: Die wird schon wissen, wie viel tun.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, da liegen so viele Daten dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehmen dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehm ich das halt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Aber können wir noch einmal vielleicht dieses zugrunde liegende Prinzip fassen. Also ich fand's bei der Vorbereitung total verwirrend. Also was ist eine digitale Assistenz? Das kann in meiner Smartwatch drin sein, im Smart Speaker drin sein.\n\nDas kann Empfehlungsalgorithmus beim Onlineshopping sein. Das kann wirklich alles Mögliche sein. Und ich hatte dann son Aha Moment in dem Moment, wo ich gesagt hab, okay, das ist eine eine Art, die Welt für mich vorzusortieren. Also in diesem Whitepaper, was ja die Grundlage ist heute für den Podcast,\n\nSpeaker 2: da\n\nSpeaker 0: heißt's vorausschauende datenbasierte Ratgeber. Also können wir's noch einmal so runterbrechen? Also Daten müssen da sein, möglichst viele. Es sind auch immer mehr Daten da. Und dann in 'nem zweiten Schritt passiert eine Filterung, kann man das so sagen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja und nein. Also natürlich passiert eine Filterung alleine über die Datenverfügbarkeit. Das ist mein Beispiel. Mhm. Aber natürlich auch über eine, wie ich sag mal, zentrale Relevanzeinschätzung.\n\nAlso natürlich kann ich nicht alle Daten dieser Welt für mein Navigationsproblem einsetzen, sondern dann nehm ich dann halt die die naheliegenden Daten, im Westfall noch Verkehrsdaten dazu, damit ich dann gleichzeitig die Verzögerungen mit einbauen kann. Das ist dann ja schon der Prozess der Kontextualisierung. Also ich hab da so Daten und mach daraus\n\nSpeaker 0: Welche Daten sind relevant\n\nSpeaker 1: für ein ein bestimmtes Ziel. Diese Auswahl ist dann auch wieder selektiv und dann kommt die eigentlich Entscheidungsunterstützung obendrauf, also der Algorithmus, wenn man so will, der dann ja auch auf irgendwas optimiert sein kann, auf kurze Fahrzeiten\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder schöne Aussicht oder wenig Benzinverbrauch\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau.\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder das würde man dann mitgeben sozusagen in dem Schritt, ne. Und dann am Ende kommt eben eine mehr oder weniger entschiedene Entscheidung raus, Sprachausgabe oder in in verschiedener Form kann die dann erfolgen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau, das das Gerät ist ja mittlerweile vollkommen unabhängig davon. Ich kann, wie Du schon sagst, eine Uhr sein. Früher, als wir angefangen haben, uns mit solchen Konzepten auseinanderzusetzen, das ist ja auch alles nicht nicht so wahnsinnig neu. Da sind wir noch von der Smart City ausgegangen, dass das quasi den digitalen Rahmen gibt, der uns dann lenken wird. Das haben wir jetzt eher körpernah.\n\nGeräte wandern wieder zur zu den einzelnen Personen hin. Ob das jetzt eine Uhr oder 'n Telefon oder 'n Kopfhörer oder was auch immer ist, das ist relativ wurscht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber ist interessant. Also damals war das mir gedacht im Sinne von digitalen Hinweistafeln, die dann Hinweise geben. Das war mal der Grund, so hat man sich das vorgestellt. Ich find das nämlich immer ganz interessant, wie man so am Anfang von der Technik sich vorstellt, wie's sein könnte. Und dann wird's am Ende ganz anders genutzt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wieso so richtig? Die Fantasie beflügelt haben damals auch ein schon häufig nicht genanntes großes Unternehmen mit der Brillentechnologie. Aha. Und dann als Acmontut Reality, dass man da dann die Hinweise der Affirmionen eingespielt kriegt und dann Ja. Aber das, wie wir mittlerweile wissen, hat sich nicht so durchgesetzt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau. Und wir machen's einfach mit den Geräten, die wir halt nutzen auch zum zum Kommunizieren und so. Und wenn man sagen würde, wir wollen Gemeinnützigkeit irgendwo in diesen Schritten, die wir jetzt gerade durchgegangen sind, reingeben, was ist dann der entscheidende Schritt? Also die Datengrundlage oder die Vorfilterung oder das der Spin, den man den dann mitgibt, also der welchen welchen Nutzen soll's haben, wo setzt man da an?\n\nSpeaker 1: Also ich glaub, der der allererste und entscheidende Schritt ist, bei der Konzeption dieser Assistenten die Möglichkeit zu geben, andere Aspekte außer die, die wir schon besprochen haben, mit aufzunehmen. Also das bedeutet, kokreative Entwicklung oder Offenheit der Systeme sind 2 unterschiedliche Wege, das zu erleichtern. Ich hab über 1 gesagt, gewährleisten, aber das ist zu erleichtern. Ja. Dass man auch andere Interessen, ob man könnte sich ja auch einen Assistenten vorstellen, der genauso funktioniert wie heute.\n\nUnd dann schieb ich 'n anderen Layer und einen anderen Algorithmus drüber und dann liefert er mir ganz anders optimierte Ergebnisse. Ja. Also dementsprechend das gemeinsame Tun und die Offenheit der Systeme. Das sind die 2 Grundvoraussetzungen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Und dann bräuchte man aber ja, müsste man sich dann irgendwie einigen auf son Werteset, sone Wertegrundausstattung? Also was ist denn Gemeinwohl? Das ist ja son son Begriff, den man so schnell dahin sagt und dann wird's schwer, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Die Frage haben wir befürchtet. In der Tat, das ist sehr schwer abgrenzbar. Ich glaub, man kann 'n paar Sachen ganz gut sagen. Also das eine ist Verfahrensaspekte. Juristinnen und Juristen würden von vormaler Gerechtigkeit reden, also das ist auch das formale Recht und gegenüber dem materiellen Recht.\n\nAlso man braucht 'n Verfahren, es gemeinsam aushandeln zu können, was denn Gemeinwohl Orientierung ist. Und das Zweite ist, glaub ich, es gibt schon einen Grundset an Werten, die wir, glaub ich, alle teilen. Mhm. Also nicht gewaltsam zu werden oder die Umwelt zu schonen oder so was in der Richtung. So son son Basiskanon, auf die man sich einigen kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. So was wie Barrierefreiheit vielleicht auch Sicher, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Zum Beispiel. Ja. Ja. Ganz wichtiges Thema in dem Kontext.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay. Also Inklusion und Teilhabe, aber auch beispielsweise die digitale Souveränität der Nutzenden auch zu unterstützen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also im Sinne von, wie gehen meine Daten hin zum Beispiel auch?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau. Ja, wir haben ja schon gesagt, also im im Sinne der Assistenten entstehen, ja ganz besonders interessant. Und dass ich da eben erst mal transparent mache, was für Daten erhebe ich, für welche Zwecke eigentlich so das das einmal 1 des Datenschutzes, aber dass ich eben auch Möglichkeiten habe, das irgendwie zu konfigurieren und einzustellen. Und ein weiterer Aspekt, dass diese Assistenten möglichst auch eher eher, handlungsserweiternd wirken sollten, statt meine Handlungsmöglichkeiten sehr eng zu begrenzen. Also Du hattest ja schon verschiedene Konfigurationsmöglichkeiten gesagt, hab ich jetzt nur die schnellste Route oder kann ich da auch noch andere Parameter vielleicht einstellen, die mir wichtig sind et cetera?\n\nAlso hab ich da Möglichkeiten, meinen Handlungsspielraum selber auch 'n bisschen abzustecken oder nicht? Auch Transportmöglichkeiten. Wir bleiben immer so oft bei diesen Navigation Das ist so nice wie son Beispiel einfach, so wenn man da vieles dran veranschaulichen kann. Aber welche welche Transportmöglichkeiten werden mir da überhaupt angeboten? Also das ist auch immer ganz spannend auch in unserem Haushalt.\n\nWenn wir dann vergleichen, ja, wie wie fahren wir denn? Und dann sag ich, ja guck mal, also mit dem Fahrrad brauchen wir fast gar nicht länger, aber eine Fahrradrouten sind gar nicht in allen Navigationsassistenten ja enthalten als Alternative, dann dann wird mir das gar nicht sichtbar. Und da gibt's ja auch Ja, es gibt ja auch andere Aspekte, die man da berücksichtigen könnte, Nachhaltigkeitsaspekte beispielsweise oder eben auch, genau, dass man vielleicht schaut, wie ist denn die Verkehrsauslastung? Man versucht, das 'n bisschen gleichmäßiger zu verteilen und eben nicht nur auf das Individuum, sondern auch son bisschen die Gesamtsicht einfach da auch mit berücksichtigt in der Planung, in dem Assistentennetzwerk. Ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und ich hab mich aber dann gefragt, also ist nicht, wenn man sagt, wir wollen da son Gemeinwohlansatz haben, ist es nicht auch 'n Stück weit wieder bevormunden oder inwieweit wollen die Leute das auch, ne? Also wollen die wirklich 'n Assistenten, bleiben wir beim Beispielverkehr, wo sie noch mal eine Auswahl treffen können zwischen, ja, ich will die gemeinwohlorientierte Route oder ich will sie nicht oder irgendwie\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, aber einfach, wenn man Optionen hat, das deswegen meinte ich, diese Handlungsmöglichkeiten erweitern. Ich ich kann ja einfach in den Assistenten auch beides nebeneinander stellen und dann kann ich als Nutzer sagen, nee, aber auch genau, heute bin ich spät dran.\n\nSpeaker 0: Heute mal Da will ich auch in meinem\n\nSpeaker 2: Leben schnellste Route haben oder ich sehe dann, ja okay, aber die Route hat andere Vorteile, aus welchen Gründen auch immer und warum nicht? Dann fahr ich doch die heute und dann kann ich ja, wenn ich dann darüber informiert bin, dann kann ich auch eine mündige Entscheidung treffen. Wenn wir wieder bei einem großen Mediastionsanbieter bleiben wollen, da sehe ich ja, was ist denn vielleicht die schnellste Route und welche Route spart vielleicht Benzin? So wird das dann ja angegeben, aber gleichzeitig ja auch CO2 beispielsweise. Ja.\n\nWas ich dann auch spannend finde, warum das so benannt wird und nicht anders benannt wird und\n\nSpeaker 0: Du meinst, warum da Benzin steht und nicht CO2? Genau.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Ob das dann vielleicht doch, ob die Individualinteressen dann da doch 'n bisschen stärker Der Geldbeutel Genau, dass man eher an den Geldbeutel hängt und nicht so sehr an das Klima oder das Meer zieht. Fänd ich mal ganz spannend, ob das tatsächlich der Grund ist, warum das da so gekennzeichnet wird.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich hab noch 2 Sachen im Kopf. Das eine ist, wir gehen immer so die ganze Zeit davon aus, dass Individual- und Gemeinwohl- und Profitinteressen oder kann ja andere Unternehmensinteressen sein, sich immer widersprechen müssen. Das muss ja gar nicht so sein. Wenn man in die Frühzeit der Navigationssysteme denkt, da da die waren ja auch nur optimiert auf schnell Vorankommen, die dann dazu geführt haben, dass immer mitm Stau da war, die Entlastungsstrecken völlig überfüllt waren. Also die\n\nSpeaker 0: Weil alle dasselbe gemacht haben sozusagen, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mit dem Versuch, individuell zu optimieren, dann halt sowohl individuell als auch für die Gemeinschaft zu einem schlechten Ergebnis gekommen sind. Da sieht man, dass man auf der richtigen Datenbasis, das ist die Grundvoraussetzung, in dem Fall Verkehrsdaten natürlich, Also erst mal die die Datenbasis schaffen muss, diese Variabilität in den Zielrichtung überhaupt schaffen zu können oder auch sinnvolle Optimierungen möglich zu machen. Also das Wheelmap Wheelmap Beispiel, was dabei ist, also wenn ich Da\n\nSpeaker 0: geht's barrierefreien Zugang von Raul Kauthausen, ne, also unter anderem mehr.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Also das ist zum Beispiel ein Layer, der ganz klar, wenn ich den brauche, dann komm ich ohne den, krieg ich aber kein sinnvolles Ergebnis. Ja. Was das denn? Und sind da doch wieder bei Navigation.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und und das ist 'n Layer, den konnte ich über andere Kartenanbieter drüber legen. Das wär sozusagen, weil die Frage ist ja, ne, die Leute haben gewohnte Nutzer Routen, die sie längs gehen, Apps, die sie installiert haben und die Frage ist ja, wie käme man da überhaupt ran, ne? Ja, ja, ja. Also in diese Nutzungsroutine rein.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ist ja letztlich 'n Layer von Open Street Map. Kann man da ja auch wunderbar benutzen, nur halt, wenn ich ausnahmsweise mal mitm Kinderwagen unterwegs bin, dann kenne ich das vielleicht nicht und dann\n\nSpeaker 0: Hab ich dasselbe Interesse, aber weiß nicht davon. Na\n\nSpeaker 1: ja. Die Interessen können divergieren, die divergieren sicherlich auch punktuell, aber es ist nicht immer 'n Widerspruch, sondern insgesamt hab ich ja auch was davon, wenn, bin ich doch wieder bei Verkehrsflüssen, wenn die Verkehrsflüsse in der Stadt insgesamt optimiert werden, hab ich da ja spätestens, also im Mittel-, Lang, Öl kurz langfristig gesagt, spätestens am nächsten Tag ja auch was von, wenn der Verkehr insgesamt besser fließt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das klingt jetzt total einleuchtend. Das klingt so einleuchtend, dass ich mir denk, das müssen doch schon Leute machen. Also gut, diese Wheelmap gibt's schon, aber gibt's denn, ich weiß nicht, Städte zum Beispiel, die solche Ansätze schon fahren? Also die son, weiß ich nicht, urbanen Assistenten haben, der so Gemeinwohlansätze berücksichtigt.\n\nSpeaker 1: Jetzt fällt mir wieder eine Navigation ein.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, weil's Es ist vielleicht auch sehr naiv natürlich. 'N Beispiel, das wir auch in dem Whitepaper haben, was natürlich schon son bisschen zurückliegt, war ja, da geht's aber mehr darum, wie kann ich die Daten von solchen Assistenten vielleicht auch nutzen als Verwaltung oder für gemeinwohlorientierte Zwecke? Und da war die Corona Warn App und darauf basierend die Möglichkeiten von Datenspenden. War ein Beispiel, wie gesagt, ist schon 'n bisschen her, aber ganz spannend, dass da ja einfach Leute bereitwillig ihre Daten zur Verfügung gestellt haben, auch ganz regelmäßig, dann einfach der Wissenschaft zu ermöglichen, dieses ganze Infektionsgeschehen und und wo tut sich da was und was sind vielleicht auch Faktoren, die eine Rolle spielen, auf 'ner ganz großen Datenbasis auch analysieren zu können. Und ich glaub, das ist auch son Aspekt, den wir jetzt noch gar nicht angesprochen haben, dass natürlich im Sinne des Gemeinwohls oder speziell für die öffentliche Verwaltung auch diese ganzen Daten natürlich auch interessant sein können.\n\nJa. Nicht nur für die Unternehmen, die dann irgendwelche Geschäftsmodelle auf dieser Basis entwickeln oder anbieten, sondern eben auch für die öffentliche Verwaltung selbst im Sinne von Stadtplanung, Verkehrsplanung, aber auch zur Förderung der öffentlichen Gesundheit oder auch im Bereich Katastrophenschutz. Also da kann man sich verschiedenste Szenarien vorstellen, für die solche Daten auch sehr wertvoll sein können. Ja. Und da könnte man natürlich überlegen, ja, wäre das nicht Win win, wenn öffentliche Verwaltung und solche Anbieter von digitalen Assistenten sich mehr austauschen würden, stärker zusammenarbeiten würden?\n\nEinfach, weil die öffentliche Verwaltung hat sehr, sehr viele Daten, die in vielen Fällen noch nicht so zur Verfügung stehen oder noch nicht so genutzt werden oder auch werden können. Und auf der anderen Seite können diese Daten aber auch ganz wertvoll sein für die öffentliche Verwaltung, ja, Herausforderungen, die wir einfach haben, gesellschaftlich besser adressieren zu können.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und da ist Katastrophenschutz son wunderbares Beispiel. Ja. Du lässt sich ja auch so schlecht trainieren und dann kann man vielleicht mit diesen Daten, jetzt bin ich wieder bei Navigation, aber bei Fluchtwegen zum Beispiel.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, erklär mal genau, wie das vor, ich steh da grad aufm Schlauch. Wie würde das funktionieren im Fall von Katastrophen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Na ja,\n\nSpeaker 1: aber wenn ich irgendetwas, irgend ein Naturereignis oder sonst irgendwas mitmontiert oder so was habe und einfach nur ganz schnell ganz viele Leute irgendwo rauskriegen muss zum Beispiel. Dann ist, haben wir ja häufig immer das Problem, also klar, Fluchthinweisschilder oder sonst irgendwas, wenn's wenn's 'n Veranstaltungsort ist. Aber da haben wir ja häufig das Problem, dass man diese Personen ganz gezielt steuern müsste. Das ist 'n klassischer Fall von Entscheidungsunterstützung. Mhm.\n\nAlso geh jetzt links rum und nie rechts. Weil links stehen die Leute schon in der Schlange und rechts ist noch alles frei. Und das war 'n wunderbares Anwendungsfeld für einen öffentlich relevant, höchst relevanten digitalen Assistenten\n\nSpeaker 0: Wo man Standortdaten hätte, möglich und dann damit irgendwie sehr gut den Leuten helfen könnte immer teilweise dann. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, dass man auch wüsste, wo halten sich Personen überhaupt auf oder wo planen sie vielleicht, sich aufzuhalten und gibt es da keine Ahnung Unwetterwarnungen, die für sie relevant sein könnten oder letztlich auch, wo sind vielleicht Personen, die noch gerettet werden müssen? Ja. Also in dem Umfeld kann man sich, glaube ich, ganz vieles denken, bei denen solche Daten, die an Vietochonds Digital Assistenten haben, nützlich sein könnten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab einen Begriff noch mitgenommen aus diesem Whitepaper. Das ist heißt physische Filterblasen. Also wir kennen ja dieses Phänomen der Filterblasen, dass eben Social Media Algorithmen uns immer mehr Beiträge reinspülen in die Timeline von Dingen, die uns schon interessieren. Und interessanterweise kann's sowas auch geben, wenn ich zum Beispiel in der Stadt unterwegs bin und ich denk, na, ich würde jetzt gern was essen oder ich bin neu in der Stadt, wo ist 'n hier was los? Und da gibt's jetzt zum Beispiel sone Funktion, die einem Center of Interest vorschlägt und das in einem im zweiten Fall ist es 'n Einkaufsset rum.\n\nAlso das das finde ich auch 'n interessanten, also es geht noch mal 'n bisschen weiter als diese Verkehrsthematik, über die wir gesprochen haben, ne, weil's weil's ja da reingeht, wie bewegen wir uns überhaupt in der Stadt? Wie werden wir da geleitet? Und das könnte man sich ja gemeinwohlorientiert auch ganz anders vorstellen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Wir haben den Gedanken ja versucht, mit dem Vorwort son bisschen aufzugreifen, also Individualtouristen, die sich dann alle immer wieder treffen und den immer wieder Auf\n\nSpeaker 0: den ganz geheimen Stränden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Geheimtipp, jetzt ganz große Geheimtipps für diesen Reiseführer. Und son bisschen ist es da mit diesem Zentrum ja eigentlich da, wo man hingehen soll, da wo was los ist, ist es natürlich auch. Da hat man immer das Risiko, dass diese Dinger an interessengeleitet sind. Also.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also wirtschaftliche Interessen geleitet, ne. Da schalten ja Leute letztendlich Anzeigen in zum Beispiel Google Maps.\n\nSpeaker 1: Zum Beispiel. Das wär ja ein Indikator, den man zugrunde liegt, könnte wer die meisten Anzeigen geschaltet. Und da haben wir dann das Stadtzentrum hin. Ein Aspekt, den wir ja auch noch nicht so sehr hatten, ist diese Personalisierung des Ganzen. Mhm.\n\nAlso sprich, wenn ich immer zum Italiener gehe, in einem Beispiel zu bleiben, dann werd ich wahrscheinlich durch meinen Assistenten nicht dazu gebracht, jetzt asiatisch essen zu gehen, sondern ich bleibe in meiner\n\nSpeaker 0: Auch Filterblase auf 'ner Art, ne. Meine Essensfilterblase.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Die dann halt doch mal darüber hinausgeht, was ich in Social Media und so was erlebe.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja. Genau oder Veranstaltungen, die ich in der Vergangenheit besucht habe, wenn die wieder anstehen, dass ich darauf hingewiesen werde und das ist irgendwie Natürlich ist das irgendwie nett, aber es ist ja auch schade, wenn ich dann immer nur wieder mehr von dem gleichen mache, was ich in der Vergangenheit auch schon gemacht habe. Also da irgendwie dann auch gar nicht mehr so richtig rauskomme.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und dann wär der Gemeinwohlansatz, ich weiß nicht, könnte das dann so was sein wie, guck mal, hier ist eine öffentliche Bibliothek, da musst Du nichts zahlen, da könntest Du hingehen oder also was wie könnten diese Filterblasen aufgebrochen werden im Sinne des Gemeinwohls so?\n\nSpeaker 2: Also das Beispiel ist schon gar nicht schlecht, dass man eben auch alternative Angebote und grade auch Angebote, wo irgendwie Gemeinschaft, Nachbarschaftshilfe oder auch andere Aspekte, wo's staatliche Unterstützungsangebote gibt et cetera, auch enthalten sind und auch sichtbar sind. Mhm. Denn das ist ja gerade die Sache im Sinne der ich ich reduziere Komplexität, werden ja ganz viele Daten und Informationen einfach komplett ausgeblendet und dass man eben solche Angebote aber wieder sichtbar macht. Das heißt ja nicht, dass ich die nutze oder dass ich die brauche, aber ich weiß, dass sie da sind, weil sie eben sichtbar sind, weil sie nicht einfach unter den Tisch gefallen sind, wie das ja häufig dann der Fall ist in solchen Assistenten.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Ja, ist eigentlich 'n interessanter Gedanke, ne? Oder dass man sagt, okay, Du hast heute Abend Zeit, geh zu diesem Konzert oder geh doch mal ins Nachbarschaftshaus, die haben den Reparierststammtisch oder so was, ne. Also einfach eine es geht eine Gleichwertigkeit im Prinzip von solchen Angeboten, die halt auch nicht kommerziell sind.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau und da da ist ja genau die Krux. Jetzt haben wir da so einen Assistenten, der mein mir meine Entscheidung vorbereiten soll. Und und jetzt sagen wir, so sollen wir aber auch nicht vorbereiten. Und so sehr soll er meine eigenen Interessen auch nicht berücksichtigen. Genau da ist die Krux.\n\nUnd da ist dann halt die Frage der Offenheit, die Frage der, was wird aufgenommen? Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 2: Was\n\nSpeaker 1: kann ich für Einstellungsmöglichkeiten? Noch mal drüber gesprochen, auch ein klassisches Thema in jeder in jeder IT Anwendung, was sind die Default Einstellungen? Also werd ich per Default werde ich zur zur Bücherei geleitet oder halt eben zum Einkaufszentrum.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also kann ich zum Beispiel 'n Haken setzen bei, ich hab gar kein Geld und außerdem brauche ich barrierefrei. Was mach ich jetzt sozusagen? Na ja, also es klingt's, aber ist ja ist ja für viele Leute die Realität auch, ne. Also Das\n\nSpeaker 1: das auf jeden Fall, aber auch noch 'n Schritt vorher. Was ist, bevor ich den ersten Haken gesetzt habe, wo werd ich da hingeleitet? Das ist ja auch den wichtigen Fall.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Okay, aber wie kann man das denn umsetzen? Also welche Rolle könnte auch vielleicht die öffentliche Verwaltung dabei spielen, die ja einfach groß ist und auch 'n Impact hat, diesen Gemeinwohlansatz bei digitalen Assistenten selbstverständlicher zu machen, mehr durchzusetzen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Jetzt kommen wir wunderbar auf eine Frage von eben, die ich noch erst halt beantwortet habe zurückkommen. Natürlich auf allen 3 Ebenen. Also bei den Daten und auch bei der Datenschaffung, das ist so, Nicole, hast Du eben auch schon gesagt. Ja. Also bei den Daten, bei der Verengung, bei der Kontextualisierung und bei den Vorentscheidungsalgorithmen auf allen 3 Ebenen.\n\nDie Datenebene ist noch, soll man sagen, relativ zugänglich, öffentliche Daten zugänglich machen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, hatten wir auch, also ist ja, haben wir auch ganz oft im Podcast schon gehabt, ne, Genau. Als Thema, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Das ist ja das Schöne bei dem Thema. Man man entdeckt viele Themen, die man schon mal hatte, jetzt konzentriert auf eine Fragestellung, auf ein ein, ja, immer bedeutsamer werdendes Phänomen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, aber darüber eben auch hinaus.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, manchmal weiterhin. Irgendwann wir ganz kurz bei den Daten natürlich andersrum, dann natürlich auch die Daten möglichst der Unternehmen in irgendeiner Form für andere Unternehmen, für Initiativen, für zivilgesellschaftliche Organisationen zugänglich machen in irgendeiner Form. Das ist auf diesem auf diesen Datenlayer, würd ich's mal nennen, der entscheidende Punkt. Ja. Glaub ich.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und dann gibt's natürlich auch noch 'n paar weitere Aspekte oder wenn man das weiterdenken möchte, dass das natürlich auch die Möglichkeit gibt, Anreize zu schaffen über Förderprogramme beispielsweise oder über Siegel, die man schaffen könnte, dass eben Gemeinwohlaspekte auch stärker berücksichtigt werden oder dass es erst mal 'n Rahmen dafür gibt, wie kann ich überhaupt Gemeinwohlaspekte stärker berücksichtigen? Wie kann ich das stärker integrieren? Ja, die Forschung mehr zu fördern, dass es dass es Kriterien gibt, während des Metriken beispielsweise, ich werde nicht so tief in die Erstthema reingehen. Ich glaube, das sprengt den Rahmen son bisschen. Also, dass man erst mal dafür sorgt, dass es 'n Rahmen dafür gibt und das auch in Förderprogramm berücksichtigt und vielleicht auch so was schafft wie Siegel, an denen man sich dann orientieren kann und dann weiß, aha, das ist nicht nur auf Profit maximiert jetzt diese Anwendung, sondern die berücksichtigt auch andere Aspekte und dann kommt die mir und meinen Interessen ja vielleicht 'n bisschen mehr entgegen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also das eine wär mehr mit Blick auf die Entwicklung, also die Förderprogramme und die Standards und das andere wär dann mit mehr mit Blick auf die Verbraucherinnen und Verbraucher, dass die eben einfach transparent gucken können, okay, in dem digitalen Assistenten ist Gemeinwohl drin und in dem nicht, oder? Das oder ich hab's jetzt Entschuldigung, ich finde, ich mach das\n\nSpeaker 2: immer so einfach hier, aber Ja, ich find's ja super, genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, natürlich. Also son Siegel würde er zumindest mal dafür sprechen, dass es eine Chance gibt, dass Gemeinwohl drinsteckt. Den Aspekt darf man natürlich auch nicht vergessen. Du hast ja eben gefragt, was ist Gemeinwohl? Das ist ja immer etwas schwierig zu fassen.\n\nMhm. Also sprich, man braucht immer auch die Verfahrensseite, die dann zum Beispiel, also wenn man beim Tourismus bleiben kann ich mir das hervorragend vorstellen, dass eine Gemeinschaft darüber diskutiert, was wollen wir denn unseren Gästen zeigen Ja. In der Stadt. Ist das jetzt das Einkaufszentrum? Ist das die Bibliothek oder die alte Kirche oder ich weiß es nicht, keine Ahnung.\n\nDas wäre ja durchaus auch eine Möglichkeit, dass man sich dann von von Einheimischen leiten lässt in seinem Ja,\n\nSpeaker 0: ist eigentlich 'n ganz großer Gedanke, ne. Dann setzen sich alle in Berlin mal hin und sagen, nee, die sollen auch mal alle nach Moabit gehen und nicht immer nur nach Kreuz Köln, die Touristen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Zum Beispiel. Ja. Also im Wedding kenn ich einige schöne, wo Flecken.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Vielleicht blicken wir noch mal 'n bisschen in die Zukunft. Also was was sind denn so Treiber? Also wir haben jetzt diesen Status quo mit vielen Sensoren, wir haben die Smart Speaker, die Entwicklung in der KI. Also mir fällt's immer schwer, mir außerhalb des Status quo vorzustellen, wohin könnte das noch gehen mit den digitalen Assistenten Assistenten und wohin wo könnten dann auch die Möglichkeiten liegen, ne, also damit einhergehend.\n\nWas sind denn so die nächsten großen Schritte würdet ihr sagen? Also diese Verschmelzung im Prinzip von verschiedenen Anwendungen zusammen zu sonem All inclusive Assistenten, der einem dann bei allem hilft bei der Verkehrsführung und beim nicht zu lange Sitzen und bei allem, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Die 2 Entwicklung kann man ja jetzt schon beobachten. Das eine ist genau diese Verschmelzung. Eine Sprachschnittstelle im Zweifel mittlerweile, die man hat, die dann halt mir alle Fragen beantwortet. Und das andere ist, die Entscheidung dann tatsächlich auf den Assistenten zu übertragen. Mhm.\n\nAlso buch mir das Ticket oder so was in der Richtung. Also gar nicht mehr der die Entscheidungsunterstützung zu nehmen und dann wie auch immer hinterfragen\n\nSpeaker 2: oder nicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich schlage mir Tickets vor, sondern Genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Buchs mir. Ja. Dann dem zu folgen. Das sind sicherlich 2 Sachen, die man schon wunderbar absehen kann.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und das andere natürlich, dass digitale Assistenten immer präsenter werden, was genau durch verschiedene Aspekte getrieben ist, durch steigende Komplexität, durch eine immer größere Datenverfügbarkeit, dadurch, dass immer mehr Prozesse einfach auch ins Digitale ja wandern. Digitale Verwaltung erfreulicherweise ja sogar auch, dass auch da meine Prozesse zunehmend digital sind. Genau und dass deshalb solche digitalen Assistenten ja potenziell auch immer mächtiger werden, weil sie einfach immer mehr Aspekte meines Lebens, immer mehr Entscheidungen in meinem Alltag bestimmen, einfach son ständiger Begleiter sind. Was dann vielleicht auch noch verstärkt wird, kommt doch noch mal auf unseren ganzen Kurzbeispiel zurück. Ich könnt ja sagen, ja gut, den Blick zur Arbeit, den fahr ich jeden Tag, da brauch ich ja auch keine Navigationsapp, da fahr ich einfach, Aber was ist, wenn das jetzt selbstfahrende Autos sind?\n\nDa kann man ja schon erwarten, dass die halt permanent auf Assistenz, auf guten Optimierung angewiesen sind. Das heißt, dass es auch da einfach immer umfassender, immer immer weit greifender wird und deshalb finden wir's ja auch so wichtig, dass man sich jetzt, wo diese Verbreitung immer mehr steigt, Gedanken darüber macht, was sind dann eigentlich die Werteinschreibungen? Was sind denn eigentlich die Interessen, die die Gestaltung dieser Assistenten leiten und die letztlich dann ja, hab ich schon gesagt, unsere Wahrnehmung unserer Umwelt, aber auch unsere Handlungen und letztlich damit auch unsere Gemeinschaft prägen. Und dass man sich darüber mal Gedanken macht und sich überlegt, wie könnte es vielleicht auch anders gehen? Wie könnte es vielleicht auch besser sein für unser Gemeinwesen?\n\nSpeaker 0: Also jetzt wär 'n guter Moment, würdest Du sagen, also wo man Weichen noch stellen kann, aber eben schon absieht, dass sind auch wirklich, werden wichtige Weichen sein sozusagen.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ganz genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Nach dem wunderbaren Schlusswort hab ich jetzt noch 2 Kleinigkeiten, die können wir loswerden.\n\nSpeaker 2: Kann schon das Schlusswort? Langes Schlusswort. Ich wollt dann\n\nSpeaker 0: auch noch sagen, Mike, was was mich so beeindruckt hat, ist, dass ja, wir haben jetzt immer digitale Assistenten gesagt, manche sagen auch Digital Companions, also was ja wie sone Art, weiß ich nicht, Wegbegleiter oder Bunny, ne, Freund sein kann, die wären ja auch immer Anthropomorfer. Das ist ja auch eine Sache, ne? Ist Ist es das, was Du sagen wolltest, meins?\n\nSpeaker 2: Das war\n\nSpeaker 1: mein zweiter Punkt, ja.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aratom drin.\n\nSpeaker 1: Mein erster, aber es hängt beides eng zusammen, meine erster ist, der Aspekt, den wir auch noch nicht so beleuchtet haben, ist Proaktivität. Also Du sagst, meine Routinenweg zur Arbeit, da brauche ich ja keinen Assistenten, Da bin ich mir nicht sicher. Also es gibt ja schon so so Kalender, die mir dann sagen, oh, heute ist viel Verkehr, starte 'n bisschen schneller. Ist ja schon. Proaktiv werd ich dann darauf hingewiesen und wer weiß, ich mach normalerweise genau diesen Weg und muss dann oder kann dann darauf reagieren.\n\nDas bedeutet aber auch, dass ich ständig antitschbar sein muss und empfänglich sein muss für diesen Assistenten. Und man hat ja schon gesagt, mit Brille haben wir viel überlegt damals, in dem Fahrrad sich nicht so durch Ich bin mir nicht sicher, wo da die Reise hingeht. Ich glaube, der Trend ist genau da, wo Du's grade beschrieben hast. Es wird immer körpernäher. Ja.\n\nAber wo es letztlich endet, ich als Brillenträger hätte nichts gegen Brille, aber trau ich mich jetzt nicht mehr.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wir haben aber letztens auch eine Folge gemacht zu Mixed Reality Ja. Zu Brillen. Vielleicht haben sie ein Comeback, wir wissen's nicht. Ja, danke euch beiden. Heute ging's digitale Assistenten, eine Live Folge von der Smart Country Convention.\n\nSchön, dass ihr da Assistenten, eine Live Folge von der Smart Country Convention. Schön, dass ihr dabei wart.\n\nSpeaker 1: Vielen Dank dir. Danke dir.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das war Restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT als Liveaufzeichnung von der Smart Country Convention. Mit dabei waren Nicole Opiella und Doktor Mike Weber. Und die passende Publikation zu dem Thema, das Whitepaper mit dem Namen das Gemeinwohlpotenzial digitaler Assistenten, das gibt's online unter öfid Punkt d e mit u e geschrieben. Wenn ihr uns gerne zugehört habt, dann empfehlt den Podcast weiter. Und wenn ihr's noch nicht getan habt, könnt ihr uns abonnieren kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple und allerlei weiteren Portalen.\n\nIch sag tschüs, bis zum nächsten Mal dann wieder ganz klassisch aus dem Studio. Ich bin Franziska Walser. Bis bald.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Kennen Sie den Begriff Over Choice?",
                      "start": 0.48,
                      "end": 2.42
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Falls Sie den nicht kennen, dann kennen Sie aber bestimmt das Gefühl, dass damit beschrieben wird, und zwar das Gefühl, einfach zu viele Optionen zu haben, aus denen man auswählen kann.",
                      "start": 2.72,
                      "end": 10.16
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also zum Beispiel welchen Podcast soll ich hören?",
                      "start": 10.16,
                      "end": 12.5
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wohin soll ich in den Urlaub fahren?",
                      "start": 12.764999,
                      "end": 14.285
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                    {
                      "text": "Soll ich einen Regenschirm mit nach draußen nehmen?",
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                      "text": "Wir haben ganz oft die Qual der Wahl und es ist natürlich verlockend, sich nicht selber zu quälen, sondern jemanden mit unendlicher Geduld und unendlichem Wissen wie zum Beispiel einen digitalen Assistenten.",
                      "start": 16.845,
                      "end": 26.224998
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Google Germany gibt's da ChatGPT oder Alexa.",
                      "start": 26.93,
                      "end": 30.07
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So weit, so harmlos, aber wie ist es im größeren Kontext?",
                      "start": 31.09,
                      "end": 34.29
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Was passiert, wenn wir uns von digitalen Assistenten durchs Leben navigieren lassen?",
                      "start": 34.29,
                      "end": 38.15
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Welche gesamtgesellschaftlichen Auswirkungen hat es zum Beispiel, wenn ich der Empfehlung des Routenplaners folge und, ein paar Minuten schneller zu sein, durch ein Wohngebiet fahre?",
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                      "text": "Im Moment dienen digitale Assistenten vor allem den individuellen Interessen von Nutzerinnen und nicht zu vergessen, auch den wirtschaftlichen Interessen von großen Digitalunternehmen.",
                      "start": 47.275,
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                      "text": "In unserem öFIT Podcast stellen wir heute Ansätze vor, wie's anders gehen könnte, wie digitale Assistenten auch den Gemeinwohl nutzen können, zum Beispiel im Einsatz für die öffentliche Verwaltung.",
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                      "end": 68.42
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                    {
                      "text": "Und wenn Sie sich grade schon wundern, warum wir heute so anders klingen als sonst, wir sind mit dieser Ausgabe zu Gast bei der Smart Country Convention in Berlin.",
                      "start": 78.985,
                      "end": 86.35
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                    {
                      "text": "Das ist also eine Live Folge von Restart digital, in neuer Umgebung, aber mit vertrauten Stimmen.",
                      "start": 86.65,
                      "end": 92.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und zwar mit mir, Franziska Walser und mit meinen beiden Co Hosts, diesmal beide anwesend und zwar Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT, kurz öFIT.",
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Hallo, Nicole.",
                      "start": 104.985,
                      "end": 105.784996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Hallo, Franziska.",
                      "start": 105.784996,
                      "end": 106.604996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und Doktor Mike Weber, Trendforscher und ebenfalls stellvertretender Leiter des öFIT.",
                      "start": 107.064995,
                      "end": 111.30499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Hallo, Mike.",
                      "start": 111.30499,
                      "end": 111.96
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 104.985,
                  "end": 111.96,
                  "num_words": 17.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Hallo Franziska.",
                      "start": 112.12,
                      "end": 113.659996
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 112.12,
                  "end": 113.659996,
                  "num_words": 2.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Wie habt ihr euch denn hier aufs Podium durchgeschlagen?",
                      "start": 113.88,
                      "end": 116.06
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mit Assistenz oder ohne?",
                      "start": 116.28,
                      "end": 117.979996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Hattet ihr vielleicht einen kleinen Routenplaner zum Beispiel zur Hilfe?",
                      "start": 118.04,
                      "end": 121.64
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich bin zum Beispiel, ich bin mit Uber gefahren und ganz eindeutig ist die Route vorgegeben worden von 'nem Assistenten, weil ich bin in Straßen längs gefahren, da bin ich noch nie längst gefahren.",
                      "start": 121.64,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 113.88,
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                  "num_words": 58.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab tatsächlich auch 'n weitbekannten Kartendienst genutzt, rauszufinden, zu welcher S-Bahnstation ich muss, ob Nord oder Süd oder wie auch immer.",
                      "start": 132.535,
                      "end": 139.95
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist schon ganz faszinierend.",
                      "start": 140.43,
                      "end": 141.62999
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also einerseits ist es natürlich eine totale Vereinfachung, hab dann mit den Sätzen gesehen, dass ich viel länger brauche, als ich eigentlich geplant hatte.",
                      "start": 141.62999,
                      "end": 148.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Andererseits sieht man dadran schon, wie der das Verhalten so ein bisschen lenkt.",
                      "start": 148.83,
                      "end": 153.62999
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hatte dann, im Auto hätte ich eine Viertelstunde gebraucht, mit öffentlichen eine Dreiviertelstunde.",
                      "start": 153.62999,
                      "end": 157.575
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 132.535,
                  "end": 157.575,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Allein in dieser Angabe ist das",
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                      "end": 159.235
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 158.19499,
                  "end": 159.235,
                  "num_words": 6.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Dass man das schon nebeneinander sieht, ne?",
                      "start": 159.395,
                      "end": 160.83499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ist schon bisschen nudging, ja.",
                      "start": 160.83499,
                      "end": 162.19499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 162.19499,
                      "end": 162.515
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und Du, Nicole?",
                      "start": 162.515,
                      "end": 163.415
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 159.395,
                  "end": 163.415,
                  "num_words": 16.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, ich bin hab ja auch eine etwas weitere Anreise gehabt und bis hierher dann auch mit Navigationsassistenten durchgeschlagen.",
                      "start": 163.555,
                      "end": 172.05
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Hier in den Hallen hätte ich mir tatsächlich auch noch eine Indoor Navigation ein bisschen gewünscht, aber wir haben's gefunden und sind hier.",
                      "start": 172.98999,
                      "end": 180.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist schon mal gut.",
                      "start": 180.83,
                      "end": 181.965
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 163.555,
                  "end": 181.965,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab son bisschen geguckt bei der Vorbereitung, also wo ich virtuelle Assistenten nutze.",
                      "start": 182.525,
                      "end": 186.705
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab zum Beispiel eine Smartwatch, die sagt immer, steh auf, wenn ich zu lang am Schreibtisch sitze oder ich hab 'n Textprogramm, das fliegt mir dann elegantere Formulierungen vor, die kann ich nehmen oder kann ich nicht nehmen.",
                      "start": 186.845,
                      "end": 196.02
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das sind ja jetzt sehr spezialisierte und total einfache Anwendungen, im Prinzip auch dieses Kartenzeug, über das wir grade geredet haben.",
                      "start": 196.58,
                      "end": 202.76001
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber der Trend geht ja in Richtung universelle Assistenzsysteme und die können natürlich dann vorstellbar noch viel mehr, ne.",
                      "start": 203.14,
                      "end": 209.46
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Was denn zum Beispiel?",
                      "start": 209.46,
                      "end": 210.68001
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 182.525,
                  "end": 210.68001,
                  "num_words": 97.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, also Du hast es ja schon erwähnt, wir haben Assistenten in den verschiedensten Bereichen.",
                      "start": 211.31499,
                      "end": 215.97499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da kann's darum gehen, dass ich mir auf meine Gesundheit achten möchte.",
                      "start": 216.03499,
                      "end": 218.995
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie schlafe ich?",
                      "start": 218.995,
                      "end": 220.03499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie viel bewege ich mich?",
                      "start": 220.03499,
                      "end": 221.415
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie ist mein Medienkonsum?",
                      "start": 221.555,
                      "end": 222.69499
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 211.31499,
                  "end": 222.69499,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Dann haben wir welche, die uns eher bei Navigation helfen, aber auch in anderen Bereichen und die Assistenten basieren ja auf sehr großen Datenmengen und da gibt's natürlich schon die Tendenz zu sagen, ja gut, vielleicht weitet man das jetzt noch aus und versucht, ihnen angrenzenden Geschäftsfelder sozusagen vorzustoßen.",
                      "start": 223.55,
                      "end": 242.765
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also genau, wenn ich jetzt bei bei Gesundheit bleibe, dann kann ich da vielleicht auch noch Wohlbefinden oder Sport oder andere Sachen einfach mit integrieren, dass ich dann auch meine Fitnessscores teilen kann.",
                      "start": 243.465,
                      "end": 254.58
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dass es quasi immer son bisschen größer wird, immer 'n bisschen wächst, noch mehr Nutzen zu bieten für die Nutzenden natürlich in meiner App, aber auch natürlich neue Kunden zu erschließen.",
                      "start": 254.64001,
                      "end": 264.9
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Denn die Assistenten, die wir nutzen, in den meisten Fällen sind die natürlich profitgetrieben und von Unternehmen und die haben natürlich 'n Interesse daran, ihre Kundenbasis ständig zu erweitern.",
                      "start": 265.095,
                      "end": 274.555
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 223.55,
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                  "num_words": 143.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, es gibt im Prinzip 2 Profitierende, also der Mensch, der sich's einfach machen will im Leben und dann Unternehmen, was eine Dienstleistung bereitstellt, aber das natürlich auch nicht aus reinem irgendwie nicht selbstlos und uneigennützig tut, sondern was ist sozusagen der Gegendeal?",
                      "start": 274.855,
                      "end": 290.54
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also warum gibt's diese Systeme und wir können sie nutzen?",
                      "start": 290.6,
                      "end": 293.18002
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also, was haben die Unternehmen davon, meine ich?",
                      "start": 294.405,
                      "end": 296.745
                    }
                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Die Unternehmen haben natürlich immer mehr Daten zur Verfügung über die Nutzenden.",
                      "start": 297.365,
                      "end": 302.985
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie verhalten sie sich?",
                      "start": 303.525,
                      "end": 305.04498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wann stehen sie morgens auf?",
                      "start": 305.04498,
                      "end": 306.485
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "An welchen Orten halten sie sich auf?",
                      "start": 306.485,
                      "end": 308.53
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wofür interessieren sie sich?",
                      "start": 308.53,
                      "end": 310.15
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 297.365,
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                  "num_words": 32.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also da können immer mehr Daten genutzt werden, dann natürlich weitere Angebote drauf zu bauen, ob das jetzt Werbung ist oder ja, dass ich eben die Profile der Nutzenden ständig erweitern kann.",
                      "start": 310.37,
                      "end": 323.19
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da haben wir natürlich irgendwie auch vielleicht schon son ersten Konflikt.",
                      "start": 323.375,
                      "end": 326.67502
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich nutze das Ganze natürlich, weil ich da für mich als Nutzer irgendeinen, ja, einen Benefit drinsehe, dass ich irgendwo schneller bin, dass ich das Gefühl habe, ich achte mehr auf meine Gesundheit.",
                      "start": 327.375,
                      "end": 338.755
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das Unternehmen hat ja natürlich ganz andere Interessen, nämlich eher Gewinnmaximierung.",
                      "start": 339.30002,
                      "end": 343.56
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also da haben wir schon sone erste Konfliktlinie und was wir ja ganz spannend finden, was eigentlich bisher noch wenig beachtet wird, ist, was ist eigentlich mit gesellschaftlichen Aspekten Das wär",
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 310.37,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "ja noch was Drittes, ne, genau.",
                      "start": 354.645,
                      "end": 355.925
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wir haben",
                      "start": 355.925,
                      "end": 356.32498
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 354.645,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "ja 'n Interesse,",
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                    }
                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "weil ich Genau.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                  "end": 357.60498,
                  "num_words": 3.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Konfliktlinie eigentlich.",
                      "start": 358.005,
                      "end": 359.38498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das steht einerseits vielleicht diesem Profitinteresse entgegen, aber andererseits vielleicht auch meinem Individualinteresse.",
                      "start": 359.445,
                      "end": 366.185
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Du hattest in deiner Intro das schon son bisschen gesagt.",
                      "start": 366.91998,
                      "end": 369.82
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich möchte vielleicht möglichst schnell von a nach b kommen und das wollen vielleicht auch alle individuell natürlich, aber was passiert denn, wenn dann plötzlich alle durch son Wohngebiet durchfahren?",
                      "start": 369.88,
                      "end": 380.46
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das war ja eigentlich nicht so intendiert.",
                      "start": 381.295,
                      "end": 383.475
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 358.005,
                  "end": 383.475,
                  "num_words": 63.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Eigentlich stattplanerisch oder von der Verkehrsleitung her möchte man natürlich lieber, dass die Leute die Ausfallstraßen, die Umgebungsstraßen rundherum nutzen, dass der Verkehr ja eher aus Wohngebieten rausgedrängt wird, damit man da weniger Lärm hat, weniger Luftverschmutzung, eine geringere Unfallgefahr.",
                      "start": 384.17502,
                      "end": 398.78
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, und da hat man eben dann diese verschiedensten Konfliktlinien und das finden wir ganz spannend, einfach mal darüber nachzudenken, ob digitale Assistenten nicht auch genutzt werden könnten, das Gemeinwohl eher zu fördern.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, sehr spannend.",
                      "start": 412.815,
                      "end": 413.85498
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da müssen wir auch nachher noch mal drüber reden, wie man die Leute dann dazu kriegt, das zu nutzen, weil möglicherweise genau, ist eben mein Eigeninteresse nicht das Gemeinwohlinteresse, zumindest nicht kurzfristig, langfristig dann vielleicht ja schon.",
                      "start": 413.85498,
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                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau und wie kann auch die Motivation dann aufrechterhalten werden?",
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 425.40002,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 427.80002,
                      "end": 427.96002
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und wenn ich",
                      "start": 427.96002,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 427.80002,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "jetzt sage, okay, das dient jetzt gar nicht mehr primär meinem Interesse nur, sondern da sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr sind einfach auch noch andere Belange und dadurch steht mein Interesse nicht mehr so stark im Vordergrund, wie es vielleicht mal war.",
                      "start": 428.44,
                      "end": 438.045
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 438.045,
                      "end": 438.545
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 428.44,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Jetzt gibt's ja digitale Assistenten nicht erst seit gestern und deswegen könnte ich mir vorstellen, dass es da schon 'n paar Anwendungen gibt, wie das genutzt wird im Kontext von öffentlichen Verwaltungen oder Smart Cities oder so was.",
                      "start": 439.605,
                      "end": 452.4
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Habt ihr da 'n Beispiel?",
                      "start": 452.53998,
                      "end": 453.68
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also wird das schon genutzt?",
                      "start": 453.9,
                      "end": 455.84
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 439.605,
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                  "num_words": 48.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Das, was man jetzt beobachten kann, ist, dass diese Assistenten, Nicole hat sie eben beschrieben, aus der Perspektive des Unternehmens heraus, aber auch aus 'ner technischen Perspektive, ja immer mächtiger werden, auf ganz unterschiedliche Art und Weisen uns diese Desinformation bereitstellen können.",
                      "start": 456.37997,
                      "end": 469.965
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da ist natürlich im Bereich Smart City, im Bereich gemeinsame Ressourcennutzung, gibt es in der Tat schon eine Anwendung, die das dann ausnutzen.",
                      "start": 470.42502,
                      "end": 477.965
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber das Spannende ist halt, dass es immer umfassender wird.",
                      "start": 478.85,
                      "end": 482.55002
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 482.69,
                      "end": 482.93002
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also gar nicht so sehr auf die einzelne Anwendung, sondern diese Entscheidungsunterstützung oder diese Entlastung von Entscheidungssituationen, da spielt eben eine größere Rolle dabei.",
                      "start": 482.93002,
                      "end": 493.375
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 456.37997,
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                  "num_words": 101.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, und möglicherweise auch, also das ist ja auch 'n Spektrum von, leg der mir nur nahe, nimm mal das Auto und oder nimm die öffentlichen Verkehrsmittel oder entscheide dir das für mich, weil's einfach eine Anwendung ist, die einfach schon Vorentscheidungen trifft, ne, was natürlich auch bequem sein kann, aber natürlich auch eine Form von Selbstwirksamkeit wegnimmt dann.",
                      "start": 493.375,
                      "end": 516.99
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 493.375,
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                  "num_words": 59.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja 'n Phänomen, das wir bei ganz vielen Sachen, auch bei anderen entscheidungsunterstützenden Systemen oder bei anderen Nudging Systemen haben.",
                      "start": 517.05,
                      "end": 523.085
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Die Frage, inwieweit das einfach nur eine zusätzliche Information ist oder inwieweit das handlungsleitend wird und genau dadrauf, das ist dann die zweite eher technische Neuerung in dem Geschäft, genau dadrauf zielen wir ab.",
                      "start": 523.465,
                      "end": 535.77
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also es ist ja ganz gezielt Entscheidungsentlastung zu fördern, ganz gezielt handlungsleitend zu sein.",
                      "start": 535.85004,
                      "end": 543.05005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das zeichnet Sie ja grade aus.",
                      "start": 543.05005,
                      "end": 544.41003
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 544.41003,
                      "end": 544.65
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 517.05,
                  "end": 544.65,
                  "num_words": 77.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und je besser Sie das können, desto mehr übernehmen Sie die faktische Entscheidung, ja.",
                      "start": 544.65,
                      "end": 548.09
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 544.65,
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                  "num_words": 14.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich nutze sie ja grade, weil die Informationsflut oder die Datenflut so groß ist und das einfach unglaublich schwierig ist für mich dann zu erkennen, was ist denn jetzt vielleicht die Beste?",
                      "start": 548.09,
                      "end": 558.72504
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich möchte schon verschiedene Handlungsoptionen dann haben, also jemand hat das für mich schon einmal runtergebrochen auf verschiedene Alternativen, aber das heißt, das ist natürlich nur ein Ausschnitt der Realität.",
                      "start": 558.72504,
                      "end": 569.16003
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da fehlen natürlich ganz viele Aspekte.",
                      "start": 569.16003,
                      "end": 571.58
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ganz begrenzt nur, was mir da angezeigt wird und manche Alternativen sehe ich dann vielleicht auch einfach nicht und nehme sie dann auch nicht wahr.",
                      "start": 571.64,
                      "end": 581.275
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 581.275,
                      "end": 581.59503
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 548.09,
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                  "num_words": 97.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also das das ist quasi zweierlei, genau.",
                      "start": 581.59503,
                      "end": 583.755
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Auf der einen Seite, dass es auf 1, dass es handlungsleitend wirkt, aber eben auch meine Wahrnehmung leitet.",
                      "start": 583.755,
                      "end": 590.895
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "1 meiner Lieblingsbeispiele ist, wenn ich eine Freundin in Frankfurt besuche und dann zu ihr nach Hause navigieren möchte, dann stehe ich da manchmal und denke, ja, das kann doch gar nicht sein, dass ich da so lange mit der S-Bahn brauche, das ist doch gar nicht so weit weg, was daran liegt, dass nämlich die U-Bahn-Verbindung nicht angezeigt wird, weil die Daten nicht zur Verfügung stehen, auch auf den Schnitt stellen.",
                      "start": 591.515,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 581.59503,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Dem großen öffentlichen Kartenanbieter, in denen Genau, das ist",
                      "start": 614.865,
                      "end": 618.48505
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 614.865,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "'n anderer Anbieter und die Daten werden nicht offen zur Verfügung gestellt und wenn ich nicht weiß, dass es eine U-Bahn-Verbindung gibt, dann nehme ich halt die S-Bahn und bin sehr lange unterwegs, weil das dann überhaupt nicht in meiner Wahrnehmung ist, dass es da eine Alternative begebe.",
                      "start": 618.705,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 633.15,
                      "end": 633.65
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also es beschränkt auch, wie wir die Welt wahrnehmen und natürlich auch, wie wir uns darin verhalten.",
                      "start": 633.755,
                      "end": 638.65497
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Du hattest diese kleinen Beispiele genannt, da werden Textvorschläge gemacht oder steh doch mal auf vom Schreibtisch und so weiter und das Phänomen, was wir beobachten, ist ja, dass man häufig diesen Empfehlungen dann folgt.",
                      "start": 639.035,
                      "end": 652.12
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das wird dann ja Automation Bias genannt, dass man, ja, das ist eine maschinelle Entscheidung und",
                      "start": 652.12,
                      "end": 658.36
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 618.705,
                  "end": 658.36,
                  "num_words": 117.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Die wird schon wissen, wie viel tun.",
                      "start": 658.52,
                      "end": 659.72
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 658.52,
                  "end": 659.72,
                  "num_words": 7.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, da liegen so viele Daten dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehmen dahinter und und schlaue Algorithmen und dann dann übernehm ich das halt.",
                      "start": 659.8,
                      "end": 666.285
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 659.8,
                  "end": 666.285,
                  "num_words": 27.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 666.285,
                      "end": 666.785
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber können wir noch einmal vielleicht dieses zugrunde liegende Prinzip fassen.",
                      "start": 666.925,
                      "end": 670.685
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich fand's bei der Vorbereitung total verwirrend.",
                      "start": 670.685,
                      "end": 672.845
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also was ist eine digitale Assistenz?",
                      "start": 672.845,
                      "end": 674.625
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das kann in meiner Smartwatch drin sein, im Smart Speaker drin sein.",
                      "start": 675.38,
                      "end": 678.82
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 666.285,
                  "end": 678.82,
                  "num_words": 38.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Das kann Empfehlungsalgorithmus beim Onlineshopping sein.",
                      "start": 678.82,
                      "end": 681.95996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das kann wirklich alles Mögliche sein.",
                      "start": 682.82,
                      "end": 684.66
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und ich hatte dann son Aha Moment in dem Moment, wo ich gesagt hab, okay, das ist eine eine Art, die Welt für mich vorzusortieren.",
                      "start": 684.66,
                      "end": 694.91504
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also in diesem Whitepaper, was ja die Grundlage ist heute für den Podcast,",
                      "start": 695.29504,
                      "end": 698.91504
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 678.82,
                  "end": 698.91504,
                  "num_words": 50.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "da",
                      "start": 699.775,
                      "end": 699.935
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 699.775,
                  "end": 699.935,
                  "num_words": 1.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "heißt's vorausschauende datenbasierte Ratgeber.",
                      "start": 699.935,
                      "end": 703.315
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also können wir's noch einmal so runterbrechen?",
                      "start": 704.495,
                      "end": 706.85004
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also Daten müssen da sein, möglichst viele.",
                      "start": 706.99005,
                      "end": 709.57
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Es sind auch immer mehr Daten da.",
                      "start": 710.03,
                      "end": 711.97003
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann in 'nem zweiten Schritt passiert eine Filterung, kann man das so sagen?",
                      "start": 712.35004,
                      "end": 716.77
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 699.935,
                  "end": 716.77,
                  "num_words": 39.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja und nein.",
                      "start": 718.305,
                      "end": 718.94495
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also natürlich passiert eine Filterung alleine über die Datenverfügbarkeit.",
                      "start": 718.94495,
                      "end": 721.685
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist mein Beispiel.",
                      "start": 721.985,
                      "end": 722.94495
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 722.94495,
                      "end": 723.44495
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber natürlich auch über eine, wie ich sag mal, zentrale Relevanzeinschätzung.",
                      "start": 723.58496,
                      "end": 728.08496
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 718.305,
                  "end": 728.08496,
                  "num_words": 28.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also natürlich kann ich nicht alle Daten dieser Welt für mein Navigationsproblem einsetzen, sondern dann nehm ich dann halt die die naheliegenden Daten, im Westfall noch Verkehrsdaten dazu, damit ich dann gleichzeitig die Verzögerungen mit einbauen kann.",
                      "start": 729.02496,
                      "end": 741.03
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist dann ja schon der Prozess der Kontextualisierung.",
                      "start": 741.25,
                      "end": 743.51
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich hab da so Daten und mach daraus",
                      "start": 744.05,
                      "end": 745.995
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 729.02496,
                  "end": 745.995,
                  "num_words": 55.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Welche Daten sind relevant",
                      "start": 746.35504,
                      "end": 747.47504
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 746.35504,
                  "end": 747.47504,
                  "num_words": 4.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "für ein ein bestimmtes Ziel.",
                      "start": 748.275,
                      "end": 750.375
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Diese Auswahl ist dann auch wieder selektiv und dann kommt die eigentlich Entscheidungsunterstützung obendrauf, also der Algorithmus, wenn man so will, der dann ja auch auf irgendwas optimiert sein kann, auf kurze Fahrzeiten",
                      "start": 750.91504,
                      "end": 762.99
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 748.275,
                  "end": 762.99,
                  "num_words": 38.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Oder schöne Aussicht oder wenig Benzinverbrauch",
                      "start": 763.61,
                      "end": 766.51
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 763.61,
                  "end": 766.51,
                  "num_words": 6.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 766.89,
                      "end": 767.01
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 766.89,
                  "end": 767.01,
                  "num_words": 1.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Oder das würde man dann mitgeben sozusagen in dem Schritt, ne.",
                      "start": 767.13,
                      "end": 770.49
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann am Ende kommt eben eine mehr oder weniger entschiedene Entscheidung raus, Sprachausgabe oder in in verschiedener Form kann die dann erfolgen.",
                      "start": 770.49,
                      "end": 780.225
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 767.13,
                  "end": 780.225,
                  "num_words": 34.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, das das Gerät ist ja mittlerweile vollkommen unabhängig davon.",
                      "start": 780.225,
                      "end": 784.14496
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich kann, wie Du schon sagst, eine Uhr sein.",
                      "start": 784.14496,
                      "end": 786.065
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Früher, als wir angefangen haben, uns mit solchen Konzepten auseinanderzusetzen, das ist ja auch alles nicht nicht so wahnsinnig neu.",
                      "start": 786.065,
                      "end": 791.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da sind wir noch von der Smart City ausgegangen, dass das quasi den digitalen Rahmen gibt, der uns dann lenken wird.",
                      "start": 792.05,
                      "end": 797.26996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das haben wir jetzt eher körpernah.",
                      "start": 797.81,
                      "end": 799.35
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 780.225,
                  "end": 799.35,
                  "num_words": 66.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Geräte wandern wieder zur zu den einzelnen Personen hin.",
                      "start": 800.37,
                      "end": 803.43
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ob das jetzt eine Uhr oder 'n Telefon oder 'n Kopfhörer oder was auch immer ist, das ist relativ wurscht.",
                      "start": 803.585,
                      "end": 808.885
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 800.37,
                  "end": 808.885,
                  "num_words": 29.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Aber ist interessant.",
                      "start": 808.945,
                      "end": 809.745
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also damals war das mir gedacht im Sinne von digitalen Hinweistafeln, die dann Hinweise geben.",
                      "start": 809.745,
                      "end": 815.34503
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das war mal der Grund, so hat man sich das vorgestellt.",
                      "start": 815.34503,
                      "end": 817.585
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich find das nämlich immer ganz interessant, wie man so am Anfang von der Technik sich vorstellt, wie's sein könnte.",
                      "start": 817.585,
                      "end": 822.42
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann wird's am Ende ganz anders genutzt.",
                      "start": 822.56,
                      "end": 824.5
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 808.945,
                  "end": 824.5,
                  "num_words": 57.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Wieso so richtig?",
                      "start": 824.72,
                      "end": 825.36
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Die Fantasie beflügelt haben damals auch ein schon häufig nicht genanntes großes Unternehmen mit der Brillentechnologie.",
                      "start": 825.36,
                      "end": 831.7
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aha.",
                      "start": 832.39996,
                      "end": 832.755
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann als Acmontut Reality, dass man da dann die Hinweise der Affirmionen eingespielt kriegt und dann Ja.",
                      "start": 832.835,
                      "end": 838.355
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber das, wie wir mittlerweile wissen, hat sich nicht so durchgesetzt.",
                      "start": 838.435,
                      "end": 841.655
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 824.72,
                  "end": 841.655,
                  "num_words": 49.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 842.275,
                      "end": 842.675
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und wir machen's einfach mit den Geräten, die wir halt nutzen auch zum zum Kommunizieren und so.",
                      "start": 842.675,
                      "end": 846.935
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und wenn man sagen würde, wir wollen Gemeinnützigkeit irgendwo in diesen Schritten, die wir jetzt gerade durchgegangen sind, reingeben, was ist dann der entscheidende Schritt?",
                      "start": 848.98,
                      "end": 859.455
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also die Datengrundlage oder die Vorfilterung oder das der Spin, den man den dann mitgibt, also der welchen welchen Nutzen soll's haben, wo setzt man da an?",
                      "start": 859.53503,
                      "end": 870.195
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 842.275,
                  "end": 870.195,
                  "num_words": 70.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also ich glaub, der der allererste und entscheidende Schritt ist, bei der Konzeption dieser Assistenten die Möglichkeit zu geben, andere Aspekte außer die, die wir schon besprochen haben, mit aufzunehmen.",
                      "start": 870.73505,
                      "end": 883.05
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also das bedeutet, kokreative Entwicklung oder Offenheit der Systeme sind 2 unterschiedliche Wege, das zu erleichtern.",
                      "start": 883.11,
                      "end": 890.925
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab über 1 gesagt, gewährleisten, aber das ist zu erleichtern.",
                      "start": 890.925,
                      "end": 893.505
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 893.565,
                      "end": 894.065
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dass man auch andere Interessen, ob man könnte sich ja auch einen Assistenten vorstellen, der genauso funktioniert wie heute.",
                      "start": 894.285,
                      "end": 899.88495
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 870.73505,
                  "end": 899.88495,
                  "num_words": 77.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann schieb ich 'n anderen Layer und einen anderen Algorithmus drüber und dann liefert er mir ganz anders optimierte Ergebnisse.",
                      "start": 899.88495,
                      "end": 906.13
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 906.59,
                      "end": 907.09
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also dementsprechend das gemeinsame Tun und die Offenheit der Systeme.",
                      "start": 907.15,
                      "end": 910.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das sind die 2 Grundvoraussetzungen.",
                      "start": 910.67,
                      "end": 911.97003
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 899.88495,
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                  "num_words": 37.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Okay.",
                      "start": 913.39,
                      "end": 913.89
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann bräuchte man aber ja, müsste man sich dann irgendwie einigen auf son Werteset, sone Wertegrundausstattung?",
                      "start": 914.19,
                      "end": 920.335
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also was ist denn Gemeinwohl?",
                      "start": 921.355,
                      "end": 922.715
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja son son Begriff, den man so schnell dahin sagt und dann wird's schwer, ne?",
                      "start": 922.715,
                      "end": 926.335
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 913.39,
                  "end": 926.335,
                  "num_words": 40.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Die Frage haben wir befürchtet.",
                      "start": 926.635,
                      "end": 927.935
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "In der Tat, das ist sehr schwer abgrenzbar.",
                      "start": 929.59503,
                      "end": 931.67
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich glaub, man kann 'n paar Sachen ganz gut sagen.",
                      "start": 931.73,
                      "end": 933.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also das eine ist Verfahrensaspekte.",
                      "start": 934.37,
                      "end": 935.83
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Juristinnen und Juristen würden von vormaler Gerechtigkeit reden, also das ist auch das formale Recht und gegenüber dem materiellen Recht.",
                      "start": 937.33,
                      "end": 944.23
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 926.635,
                  "end": 944.23,
                  "num_words": 48.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also man braucht 'n Verfahren, es gemeinsam aushandeln zu können, was denn Gemeinwohl Orientierung ist.",
                      "start": 944.675,
                      "end": 949.65497
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und das Zweite ist, glaub ich, es gibt schon einen Grundset an Werten, die wir, glaub ich, alle teilen.",
                      "start": 949.95496,
                      "end": 955.495
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 955.555,
                      "end": 955.95496
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also nicht gewaltsam zu werden oder die Umwelt zu schonen oder so was in der Richtung.",
                      "start": 955.95496,
                      "end": 961.19
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So son son Basiskanon, auf die man sich einigen kann.",
                      "start": 961.25,
                      "end": 964.85
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 944.675,
                  "end": 964.85,
                  "num_words": 61.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 964.85,
                      "end": 965.08997
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So was wie Barrierefreiheit vielleicht auch Sicher, ja.",
                      "start": 965.08997,
                      "end": 967.44995
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 964.85,
                  "end": 967.44995,
                  "num_words": 9.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Zum Beispiel.",
                      "start": 967.49,
                      "end": 968.05
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 968.05,
                      "end": 968.29
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 968.29,
                      "end": 968.76996
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ganz wichtiges Thema in dem Kontext.",
                      "start": 968.76996,
                      "end": 970.455
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 967.49,
                  "end": 970.455,
                  "num_words": 10.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Okay.",
                      "start": 970.615,
                      "end": 970.935
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also Inklusion und Teilhabe, aber auch beispielsweise die digitale Souveränität der Nutzenden auch zu unterstützen.",
                      "start": 970.935,
                      "end": 978.155
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 970.615,
                  "end": 978.155,
                  "num_words": 16.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also im Sinne von, wie gehen meine Daten hin zum Beispiel auch?",
                      "start": 978.935,
                      "end": 981.655
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 978.935,
                  "end": 981.655,
                  "num_words": 12.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 981.655,
                      "end": 981.97504
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, wir haben ja schon gesagt, also im im Sinne der Assistenten entstehen, ja ganz besonders interessant.",
                      "start": 981.97504,
                      "end": 992.88
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dass ich da eben erst mal transparent mache, was für Daten erhebe ich, für welche Zwecke eigentlich so das das einmal 1 des Datenschutzes, aber dass ich eben auch Möglichkeiten habe, das irgendwie zu konfigurieren und einzustellen.",
                      "start": 993.18,
                      "end": 1007.97504
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und ein weiterer Aspekt, dass diese Assistenten möglichst auch eher eher, handlungsserweiternd wirken sollten, statt meine Handlungsmöglichkeiten sehr eng zu begrenzen.",
                      "start": 1008.755,
                      "end": 1020.52
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also Du hattest ja schon verschiedene Konfigurationsmöglichkeiten gesagt, hab ich jetzt nur die schnellste Route oder kann ich da auch noch andere Parameter vielleicht einstellen, die mir wichtig sind et cetera?",
                      "start": 1020.98,
                      "end": 1031.1649
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 981.655,
                  "end": 1031.1649,
                  "num_words": 108.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also hab ich da Möglichkeiten, meinen Handlungsspielraum selber auch 'n bisschen abzustecken oder nicht?",
                      "start": 1031.1649,
                      "end": 1036.3049
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Auch Transportmöglichkeiten.",
                      "start": 1036.845,
                      "end": 1038.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wir bleiben immer so oft bei diesen Navigation Das ist so nice wie son Beispiel einfach, so wenn man da vieles dran veranschaulichen kann.",
                      "start": 1039.25,
                      "end": 1046.23
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber welche welche Transportmöglichkeiten werden mir da überhaupt angeboten?",
                      "start": 1046.37,
                      "end": 1050.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also das ist auch immer ganz spannend auch in unserem Haushalt.",
                      "start": 1051.015,
                      "end": 1053.195
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1031.1649,
                  "end": 1053.195,
                  "num_words": 60.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Wenn wir dann vergleichen, ja, wie wie fahren wir denn?",
                      "start": 1053.495,
                      "end": 1055.735
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und dann sag ich, ja guck mal, also mit dem Fahrrad brauchen wir fast gar nicht länger, aber eine Fahrradrouten sind gar nicht in allen Navigationsassistenten ja enthalten als Alternative, dann dann wird mir das gar nicht sichtbar.",
                      "start": 1055.735,
                      "end": 1067.25
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da gibt's ja auch Ja, es gibt ja auch andere Aspekte, die man da berücksichtigen könnte, Nachhaltigkeitsaspekte beispielsweise oder eben auch, genau, dass man vielleicht schaut, wie ist denn die Verkehrsauslastung?",
                      "start": 1067.87,
                      "end": 1078.13
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Man versucht, das 'n bisschen gleichmäßiger zu verteilen und eben nicht nur auf das Individuum, sondern auch son bisschen die Gesamtsicht einfach da auch mit berücksichtigt in der Planung, in dem Assistentennetzwerk.",
                      "start": 1078.51,
                      "end": 1089.6549
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1090.0349,
                      "end": 1090.5349
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1053.495,
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                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und ich hab mich aber dann gefragt, also ist nicht, wenn man sagt, wir wollen da son Gemeinwohlansatz haben, ist es nicht auch 'n Stück weit wieder bevormunden oder inwieweit wollen die Leute das auch, ne?",
                      "start": 1090.995,
                      "end": 1101.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also wollen die wirklich 'n Assistenten, bleiben wir beim Beispielverkehr, wo sie noch mal eine Auswahl treffen können zwischen, ja, ich will die gemeinwohlorientierte Route oder ich will sie nicht oder irgendwie",
                      "start": 1101.75,
                      "end": 1113.855
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1090.995,
                  "end": 1113.855,
                  "num_words": 68.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, aber einfach, wenn man Optionen hat, das deswegen meinte ich, diese Handlungsmöglichkeiten erweitern.",
                      "start": 1114.8151,
                      "end": 1121.075
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich ich kann ja einfach in den Assistenten auch beides nebeneinander stellen und dann kann ich als Nutzer sagen, nee, aber auch genau, heute bin ich spät dran.",
                      "start": 1121.775,
                      "end": 1128.03
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1114.8151,
                  "end": 1128.03,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Heute mal Da will ich auch in meinem",
                      "start": 1128.03,
                      "end": 1129.55
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1128.03,
                  "end": 1129.55,
                  "num_words": 8.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Leben schnellste Route haben oder ich sehe dann, ja okay, aber die Route hat andere Vorteile, aus welchen Gründen auch immer und warum nicht?",
                      "start": 1129.55,
                      "end": 1139.445
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dann fahr ich doch die heute und dann kann ich ja, wenn ich dann darüber informiert bin, dann kann ich auch eine mündige Entscheidung treffen.",
                      "start": 1139.445,
                      "end": 1145.205
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wenn wir wieder bei einem großen Mediastionsanbieter bleiben wollen, da sehe ich ja, was ist denn vielleicht die schnellste Route und welche Route spart vielleicht Benzin?",
                      "start": 1145.205,
                      "end": 1154.48
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "So wird das dann ja angegeben, aber gleichzeitig ja auch CO2 beispielsweise.",
                      "start": 1154.78,
                      "end": 1158.96
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1159.34,
                      "end": 1159.82
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1129.55,
                  "end": 1159.82,
                  "num_words": 88.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Was ich dann auch spannend finde, warum das so benannt wird und nicht anders benannt wird und",
                      "start": 1159.82,
                      "end": 1164.86
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1159.82,
                  "end": 1164.86,
                  "num_words": 17.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Du meinst, warum da Benzin steht und nicht CO2?",
                      "start": 1165.1,
                      "end": 1167.2
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 1167.26,
                      "end": 1167.66
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1165.1,
                  "end": 1167.66,
                  "num_words": 10.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1167.66,
                      "end": 1168.095
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ob das dann vielleicht doch, ob die Individualinteressen dann da doch 'n bisschen stärker Der Geldbeutel Genau, dass man eher an den Geldbeutel hängt und nicht so sehr an das Klima oder das Meer zieht.",
                      "start": 1168.1749,
                      "end": 1177.5349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Fänd ich mal ganz spannend, ob das tatsächlich der Grund ist, warum das da so gekennzeichnet wird.",
                      "start": 1177.5349,
                      "end": 1182.83
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1167.66,
                  "end": 1182.83,
                  "num_words": 53.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab noch 2 Sachen im Kopf.",
                      "start": 1182.83,
                      "end": 1184.19
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das eine ist, wir gehen immer so die ganze Zeit davon aus, dass Individual- und Gemeinwohl- und Profitinteressen oder kann ja andere Unternehmensinteressen sein, sich immer widersprechen müssen.",
                      "start": 1184.19,
                      "end": 1192.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das muss ja gar nicht so sein.",
                      "start": 1192.75,
                      "end": 1194.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wenn man in die Frühzeit der Navigationssysteme denkt, da da die waren ja auch nur optimiert auf schnell Vorankommen, die dann dazu geführt haben, dass immer mitm Stau da war, die Entlastungsstrecken völlig überfüllt waren.",
                      "start": 1195.07,
                      "end": 1206.815
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also die",
                      "start": 1206.815,
                      "end": 1207.215
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1182.83,
                  "end": 1207.215,
                  "num_words": 79.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Weil alle dasselbe gemacht haben sozusagen, ne.",
                      "start": 1207.2949,
                      "end": 1209.4149
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1207.2949,
                  "end": 1209.4149,
                  "num_words": 7.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Mit dem Versuch, individuell zu optimieren, dann halt sowohl individuell als auch für die Gemeinschaft zu einem schlechten Ergebnis gekommen sind.",
                      "start": 1209.5349,
                      "end": 1217.1299
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da sieht man, dass man auf der richtigen Datenbasis, das ist die Grundvoraussetzung, in dem Fall Verkehrsdaten natürlich, Also erst mal die die Datenbasis schaffen muss, diese Variabilität in den Zielrichtung überhaupt schaffen zu können oder auch sinnvolle Optimierungen möglich zu machen.",
                      "start": 1217.35,
                      "end": 1234.385
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also das Wheelmap Wheelmap Beispiel, was dabei ist, also wenn ich Da",
                      "start": 1234.385,
                      "end": 1238.74
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1209.5349,
                  "end": 1238.74,
                  "num_words": 75.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "geht's barrierefreien Zugang von Raul Kauthausen, ne, also unter anderem mehr.",
                      "start": 1238.74,
                      "end": 1242.82
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1238.74,
                  "end": 1242.82,
                  "num_words": 11.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 1242.82,
                      "end": 1243.22
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also das ist zum Beispiel ein Layer, der ganz klar, wenn ich den brauche, dann komm ich ohne den, krieg ich aber kein sinnvolles Ergebnis.",
                      "start": 1243.22,
                      "end": 1251.32
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1251.5399,
                      "end": 1251.7
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Was das denn?",
                      "start": 1251.7,
                      "end": 1252.5
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und sind da doch wieder bei Navigation.",
                      "start": 1252.5,
                      "end": 1254.105
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1242.82,
                  "end": 1254.105,
                  "num_words": 37.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und und das ist 'n Layer, den konnte ich über andere Kartenanbieter drüber legen.",
                      "start": 1254.105,
                      "end": 1259.385
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das wär sozusagen, weil die Frage ist ja, ne, die Leute haben gewohnte Nutzer Routen, die sie längs gehen, Apps, die sie installiert haben und die Frage ist ja, wie käme man da überhaupt ran, ne?",
                      "start": 1259.385,
                      "end": 1271.4701
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, ja, ja.",
                      "start": 1271.4701,
                      "end": 1271.79
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also in diese Nutzungsroutine rein.",
                      "start": 1271.79,
                      "end": 1273.49
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1254.105,
                  "end": 1273.49,
                  "num_words": 58.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ist ja letztlich 'n Layer von Open Street Map.",
                      "start": 1273.55,
                      "end": 1275.81
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Kann man da ja auch wunderbar benutzen, nur halt, wenn ich ausnahmsweise mal mitm Kinderwagen unterwegs bin, dann kenne ich das vielleicht nicht und dann",
                      "start": 1275.9501,
                      "end": 1282.375
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1273.55,
                  "end": 1282.375,
                  "num_words": 34.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Hab ich dasselbe Interesse, aber weiß nicht davon.",
                      "start": 1282.795,
                      "end": 1284.8351
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Na",
                      "start": 1284.8351,
                      "end": 1285.3351
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1282.795,
                  "end": 1285.3351,
                  "num_words": 9.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "ja.",
                      "start": 1285.555,
                      "end": 1285.7151
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Die Interessen können divergieren, die divergieren sicherlich auch punktuell, aber es ist nicht immer 'n Widerspruch, sondern insgesamt hab ich ja auch was davon, wenn, bin ich doch wieder bei Verkehrsflüssen, wenn die Verkehrsflüsse in der Stadt insgesamt optimiert werden, hab ich da ja spätestens, also im Mittel-, Lang, Öl kurz langfristig gesagt, spätestens am nächsten Tag ja auch was von, wenn der Verkehr insgesamt besser fließt.",
                      "start": 1285.7151,
                      "end": 1307.57
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1285.555,
                  "end": 1307.57,
                  "num_words": 68.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Das klingt jetzt total einleuchtend.",
                      "start": 1308.365,
                      "end": 1309.9651
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das klingt so einleuchtend, dass ich mir denk, das müssen doch schon Leute machen.",
                      "start": 1309.9651,
                      "end": 1312.8451
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also gut, diese Wheelmap gibt's schon, aber gibt's denn, ich weiß nicht, Städte zum Beispiel, die solche Ansätze schon fahren?",
                      "start": 1312.8451,
                      "end": 1319.745
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also die son, weiß ich nicht, urbanen Assistenten haben, der so Gemeinwohlansätze berücksichtigt.",
                      "start": 1319.885,
                      "end": 1326.69
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1308.365,
                  "end": 1326.69,
                  "num_words": 52.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Jetzt fällt mir wieder eine Navigation ein.",
                      "start": 1328.11,
                      "end": 1330.21
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1328.11,
                  "end": 1330.21,
                  "num_words": 7.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, weil's Es ist vielleicht auch sehr naiv natürlich.",
                      "start": 1331.79,
                      "end": 1334.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "'N Beispiel, das wir auch in dem Whitepaper haben, was natürlich schon son bisschen zurückliegt, war ja, da geht's aber mehr darum, wie kann ich die Daten von solchen Assistenten vielleicht auch nutzen als Verwaltung oder für gemeinwohlorientierte Zwecke?",
                      "start": 1335.125,
                      "end": 1350.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da war die Corona Warn App und darauf basierend die Möglichkeiten von Datenspenden.",
                      "start": 1351.06,
                      "end": 1356.68
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "War ein Beispiel, wie gesagt, ist schon 'n bisschen her, aber ganz spannend, dass da ja einfach Leute bereitwillig ihre Daten zur Verfügung gestellt haben, auch ganz regelmäßig, dann einfach der Wissenschaft zu ermöglichen, dieses ganze Infektionsgeschehen und und wo tut sich da was und was sind vielleicht auch Faktoren, die eine Rolle spielen, auf 'ner ganz großen Datenbasis auch analysieren zu können.",
                      "start": 1357.4601,
                      "end": 1381.73
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und ich glaub, das ist auch son Aspekt, den wir jetzt noch gar nicht angesprochen haben, dass natürlich im Sinne des Gemeinwohls oder speziell für die öffentliche Verwaltung auch diese ganzen Daten natürlich auch interessant sein können.",
                      "start": 1381.73,
                      "end": 1393.795
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1331.79,
                  "end": 1393.795,
                  "num_words": 162.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1393.795,
                      "end": 1393.875
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Nicht nur für die Unternehmen, die dann irgendwelche Geschäftsmodelle auf dieser Basis entwickeln oder anbieten, sondern eben auch für die öffentliche Verwaltung selbst im Sinne von Stadtplanung, Verkehrsplanung, aber auch zur Förderung der öffentlichen Gesundheit oder auch im Bereich Katastrophenschutz.",
                      "start": 1393.875,
                      "end": 1412.33
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also da kann man sich verschiedenste Szenarien vorstellen, für die solche Daten auch sehr wertvoll sein können.",
                      "start": 1413.03,
                      "end": 1418.63
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1418.63,
                      "end": 1419.075
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da könnte man natürlich überlegen, ja, wäre das nicht Win win, wenn öffentliche Verwaltung und solche Anbieter von digitalen Assistenten sich mehr austauschen würden, stärker zusammenarbeiten würden?",
                      "start": 1419.315,
                      "end": 1431.495
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1393.795,
                  "end": 1431.495,
                  "num_words": 87.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Einfach, weil die öffentliche Verwaltung hat sehr, sehr viele Daten, die in vielen Fällen noch nicht so zur Verfügung stehen oder noch nicht so genutzt werden oder auch werden können.",
                      "start": 1432.1599,
                      "end": 1440.8999
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und auf der anderen Seite können diese Daten aber auch ganz wertvoll sein für die öffentliche Verwaltung, ja, Herausforderungen, die wir einfach haben, gesellschaftlich besser adressieren zu können.",
                      "start": 1441.2,
                      "end": 1451.5851
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1432.1599,
                  "end": 1451.5851,
                  "num_words": 58.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und da ist Katastrophenschutz son wunderbares Beispiel.",
                      "start": 1451.645,
                      "end": 1453.9651
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1453.9651,
                      "end": 1454.365
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Du lässt sich ja auch so schlecht trainieren und dann kann man vielleicht mit diesen Daten, jetzt bin ich wieder bei Navigation, aber bei Fluchtwegen zum Beispiel.",
                      "start": 1454.365,
                      "end": 1461.425
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1451.645,
                  "end": 1461.425,
                  "num_words": 35.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, erklär mal genau, wie das vor, ich steh da grad aufm Schlauch.",
                      "start": 1462.64,
                      "end": 1465.12
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie würde das funktionieren im Fall von Katastrophen?",
                      "start": 1465.12,
                      "end": 1467.38
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1462.64,
                  "end": 1467.38,
                  "num_words": 21.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Na ja,",
                      "start": 1467.44,
                      "end": 1467.6799
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1467.44,
                  "end": 1467.6799,
                  "num_words": 2.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "aber wenn ich irgendetwas, irgend ein Naturereignis oder sonst irgendwas mitmontiert oder so was habe und einfach nur ganz schnell ganz viele Leute irgendwo rauskriegen muss zum Beispiel.",
                      "start": 1467.6799,
                      "end": 1477.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dann ist, haben wir ja häufig immer das Problem, also klar, Fluchthinweisschilder oder sonst irgendwas, wenn's wenn's 'n Veranstaltungsort ist.",
                      "start": 1477.805,
                      "end": 1484.225
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Aber da haben wir ja häufig das Problem, dass man diese Personen ganz gezielt steuern müsste.",
                      "start": 1484.285,
                      "end": 1489.89
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist 'n klassischer Fall von Entscheidungsunterstützung.",
                      "start": 1489.89,
                      "end": 1491.91
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1492.37,
                      "end": 1492.6901
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1467.6799,
                  "end": 1492.6901,
                  "num_words": 72.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also geh jetzt links rum und nie rechts.",
                      "start": 1492.6901,
                      "end": 1494.7101
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Weil links stehen die Leute schon in der Schlange und rechts ist noch alles frei.",
                      "start": 1494.93,
                      "end": 1498.79
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und das war 'n wunderbares Anwendungsfeld für einen öffentlich relevant, höchst relevanten digitalen Assistenten",
                      "start": 1499.41,
                      "end": 1506.165
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1492.6901,
                  "end": 1506.165,
                  "num_words": 37.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Wo man Standortdaten hätte, möglich und dann damit irgendwie sehr gut den Leuten helfen könnte immer teilweise dann.",
                      "start": 1506.405,
                      "end": 1513.285
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1513.285,
                      "end": 1513.525
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1506.405,
                  "end": 1513.525,
                  "num_words": 19.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, dass man auch wüsste, wo halten sich Personen überhaupt auf oder wo planen sie vielleicht, sich aufzuhalten und gibt es da keine Ahnung Unwetterwarnungen, die für sie relevant sein könnten oder letztlich auch, wo sind vielleicht Personen, die noch gerettet werden müssen?",
                      "start": 1513.525,
                      "end": 1529.5299
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1529.5299,
                      "end": 1530.01
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also in dem Umfeld kann man sich, glaube ich, ganz vieles denken, bei denen solche Daten, die an Vietochonds Digital Assistenten haben, nützlich sein könnten.",
                      "start": 1530.01,
                      "end": 1539.175
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1513.525,
                  "end": 1539.175,
                  "num_words": 69.0,
                  "speaker": 2
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ich hab einen Begriff noch mitgenommen aus diesem Whitepaper.",
                      "start": 1540.275,
                      "end": 1544.135
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist heißt physische Filterblasen.",
                      "start": 1545.38,
                      "end": 1547.4
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also wir kennen ja dieses Phänomen der Filterblasen, dass eben Social Media Algorithmen uns immer mehr Beiträge reinspülen in die Timeline von Dingen, die uns schon interessieren.",
                      "start": 1547.7001,
                      "end": 1555.4801
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und interessanterweise kann's sowas auch geben, wenn ich zum Beispiel in der Stadt unterwegs bin und ich denk, na, ich würde jetzt gern was essen oder ich bin neu in der Stadt, wo ist 'n hier was los?",
                      "start": 1555.54,
                      "end": 1567.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da gibt's jetzt zum Beispiel sone Funktion, die einem Center of Interest vorschlägt und das in einem im zweiten Fall ist es 'n Einkaufsset rum.",
                      "start": 1567.725,
                      "end": 1575.03
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1540.275,
                  "end": 1575.03,
                  "num_words": 105.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also das das finde ich auch 'n interessanten, also es geht noch mal 'n bisschen weiter als diese Verkehrsthematik, über die wir gesprochen haben, ne, weil's weil's ja da reingeht, wie bewegen wir uns überhaupt in der Stadt?",
                      "start": 1575.8099,
                      "end": 1585.09
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie werden wir da geleitet?",
                      "start": 1585.09,
                      "end": 1586.5499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und das könnte man sich ja gemeinwohlorientiert auch ganz anders vorstellen.",
                      "start": 1587.145,
                      "end": 1590.365
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1575.8099,
                  "end": 1590.365,
                  "num_words": 54.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1591.225,
                      "end": 1591.545
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wir haben den Gedanken ja versucht, mit dem Vorwort son bisschen aufzugreifen, also Individualtouristen, die sich dann alle immer wieder treffen und den immer wieder Auf",
                      "start": 1591.545,
                      "end": 1598.265
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1591.225,
                  "end": 1598.265,
                  "num_words": 27.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "den ganz geheimen Stränden.",
                      "start": 1598.265,
                      "end": 1599.645
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1598.265,
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                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 1599.865,
                      "end": 1600.365
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Geheimtipp, jetzt ganz große Geheimtipps für diesen Reiseführer.",
                      "start": 1600.825,
                      "end": 1603.58
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und son bisschen ist es da mit diesem Zentrum ja eigentlich da, wo man hingehen soll, da wo was los ist, ist es natürlich auch.",
                      "start": 1604.52,
                      "end": 1610.52
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da hat man immer das Risiko, dass diese Dinger an interessengeleitet sind.",
                      "start": 1610.52,
                      "end": 1613.56
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also.",
                      "start": 1613.56,
                      "end": 1613.955
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1599.865,
                  "end": 1613.955,
                  "num_words": 47.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also wirtschaftliche Interessen geleitet, ne.",
                      "start": 1614.0349,
                      "end": 1616.115
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Da schalten ja Leute letztendlich Anzeigen in zum Beispiel Google Maps.",
                      "start": 1616.115,
                      "end": 1619.475
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1614.0349,
                  "end": 1619.475,
                  "num_words": 16.0,
                  "speaker": 0
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Zum Beispiel.",
                      "start": 1619.475,
                      "end": 1619.955
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das wär ja ein Indikator, den man zugrunde liegt, könnte wer die meisten Anzeigen geschaltet.",
                      "start": 1619.955,
                      "end": 1623.3949
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und da haben wir dann das Stadtzentrum hin.",
                      "start": 1623.3949,
                      "end": 1627.02
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ein Aspekt, den wir ja auch noch nicht so sehr hatten, ist diese Personalisierung des Ganzen.",
                      "start": 1627.18,
                      "end": 1631.98
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1631.98,
                      "end": 1632.48
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1619.475,
                  "end": 1632.48,
                  "num_words": 42.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also sprich, wenn ich immer zum Italiener gehe, in einem Beispiel zu bleiben, dann werd ich wahrscheinlich durch meinen Assistenten nicht dazu gebracht, jetzt asiatisch essen zu gehen, sondern ich bleibe in meiner",
                      "start": 1632.78,
                      "end": 1642.835
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1632.78,
                  "end": 1642.835,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Auch Filterblase auf 'ner Art, ne.",
                      "start": 1643.3151,
                      "end": 1644.915
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Meine Essensfilterblase.",
                      "start": 1644.915,
                      "end": 1645.575
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1643.3151,
                  "end": 1645.575,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 1646.355,
                      "end": 1646.855
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Die dann halt doch mal darüber hinausgeht, was ich in Social Media und so was erlebe.",
                      "start": 1647.635,
                      "end": 1652.295
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1646.355,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1652.435,
                      "end": 1652.935
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Genau oder Veranstaltungen, die ich in der Vergangenheit besucht habe, wenn die wieder anstehen, dass ich darauf hingewiesen werde und das ist irgendwie Natürlich ist das irgendwie nett, aber es ist ja auch schade, wenn ich dann immer nur wieder mehr von dem gleichen mache, was ich in der Vergangenheit auch schon gemacht habe.",
                      "start": 1653.6499,
                      "end": 1668.1499
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also da irgendwie dann auch gar nicht mehr so richtig rauskomme.",
                      "start": 1668.655,
                      "end": 1671.315
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1652.435,
                  "end": 1671.315,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja und dann wär der Gemeinwohlansatz, ich weiß nicht, könnte das dann so was sein wie, guck mal, hier ist eine öffentliche Bibliothek, da musst Du nichts zahlen, da könntest Du hingehen oder also was wie könnten diese Filterblasen aufgebrochen werden im Sinne des Gemeinwohls so?",
                      "start": 1672.255,
                      "end": 1686.8201
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1672.255,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also das Beispiel ist schon gar nicht schlecht, dass man eben auch alternative Angebote und grade auch Angebote, wo irgendwie Gemeinschaft, Nachbarschaftshilfe oder auch andere Aspekte, wo's staatliche Unterstützungsangebote gibt et cetera, auch enthalten sind und auch sichtbar sind.",
                      "start": 1687.2001,
                      "end": 1706.875
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1706.875,
                      "end": 1707.115
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Denn das ist ja gerade die Sache im Sinne der ich ich reduziere Komplexität, werden ja ganz viele Daten und Informationen einfach komplett ausgeblendet und dass man eben solche Angebote aber wieder sichtbar macht.",
                      "start": 1707.115,
                      "end": 1720.5901
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das heißt ja nicht, dass ich die nutze oder dass ich die brauche, aber ich weiß, dass sie da sind, weil sie eben sichtbar sind, weil sie nicht einfach unter den Tisch gefallen sind, wie das ja häufig dann der Fall ist in solchen Assistenten.",
                      "start": 1720.5901,
                      "end": 1732.035
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                  ],
                  "start": 1687.2001,
                  "end": 1732.035,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1732.4951,
                      "end": 1732.9951
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, ist eigentlich 'n interessanter Gedanke, ne?",
                      "start": 1733.2151,
                      "end": 1734.895
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Oder dass man sagt, okay, Du hast heute Abend Zeit, geh zu diesem Konzert oder geh doch mal ins Nachbarschaftshaus, die haben den Reparierststammtisch oder so was, ne.",
                      "start": 1734.895,
                      "end": 1742.5
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also einfach eine es geht eine Gleichwertigkeit im Prinzip von solchen Angeboten, die halt auch nicht kommerziell sind.",
                      "start": 1742.5,
                      "end": 1748.18
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1732.4951,
                  "end": 1748.18,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau und da da ist ja genau die Krux.",
                      "start": 1748.18,
                      "end": 1750.34
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Jetzt haben wir da so einen Assistenten, der mein mir meine Entscheidung vorbereiten soll.",
                      "start": 1750.34,
                      "end": 1754.44
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und und jetzt sagen wir, so sollen wir aber auch nicht vorbereiten.",
                      "start": 1755.195,
                      "end": 1759.135
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und so sehr soll er meine eigenen Interessen auch nicht berücksichtigen.",
                      "start": 1759.275,
                      "end": 1761.9349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Genau da ist die Krux.",
                      "start": 1762.075,
                      "end": 1763.275
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1748.18,
                  "end": 1763.275,
                  "num_words": 51.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Und da ist dann halt die Frage der Offenheit, die Frage der, was wird aufgenommen?",
                      "start": 1763.275,
                      "end": 1766.815
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1766.955,
                      "end": 1767.275
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1763.275,
                  "end": 1767.275,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Was",
                      "start": 1767.275,
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                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1767.275,
                  "end": 1767.4349,
                  "num_words": 1.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "kann ich für Einstellungsmöglichkeiten?",
                      "start": 1767.4349,
                      "end": 1768.495
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Noch mal drüber gesprochen, auch ein klassisches Thema in jeder in jeder IT Anwendung, was sind die Default Einstellungen?",
                      "start": 1769.09,
                      "end": 1775.11
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also werd ich per Default werde ich zur zur Bücherei geleitet oder halt eben zum Einkaufszentrum.",
                      "start": 1775.81,
                      "end": 1781.51
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1767.4349,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, also kann ich zum Beispiel 'n Haken setzen bei, ich hab gar kein Geld und außerdem brauche ich barrierefrei.",
                      "start": 1781.65,
                      "end": 1786.5349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Was mach ich jetzt sozusagen?",
                      "start": 1787.155,
                      "end": 1788.4349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Na ja, also es klingt's, aber ist ja ist ja für viele Leute die Realität auch, ne.",
                      "start": 1788.4349,
                      "end": 1792.115
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also Das",
                      "start": 1792.115,
                      "end": 1792.595
                    }
                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "das auf jeden Fall, aber auch noch 'n Schritt vorher.",
                      "start": 1792.595,
                      "end": 1795.155
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Was ist, bevor ich den ersten Haken gesetzt habe, wo werd ich da hingeleitet?",
                      "start": 1795.155,
                      "end": 1798.375
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja auch den wichtigen Fall.",
                      "start": 1798.6749,
                      "end": 1800.2949
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1792.595,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1801.48,
                      "end": 1801.88
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Okay, aber wie kann man das denn umsetzen?",
                      "start": 1801.88,
                      "end": 1808.7
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also welche Rolle könnte auch vielleicht die öffentliche Verwaltung dabei spielen, die ja einfach groß ist und auch 'n Impact hat, diesen Gemeinwohlansatz bei digitalen Assistenten selbstverständlicher zu machen, mehr durchzusetzen.",
                      "start": 1808.84,
                      "end": 1824.585
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                  ],
                  "start": 1801.48,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Jetzt kommen wir wunderbar auf eine Frage von eben, die ich noch erst halt beantwortet habe zurückkommen.",
                      "start": 1825.845,
                      "end": 1830.665
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Natürlich auf allen 3 Ebenen.",
                      "start": 1833.1,
                      "end": 1834.2999
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also bei den Daten und auch bei der Datenschaffung, das ist so, Nicole, hast Du eben auch schon gesagt.",
                      "start": 1834.2999,
                      "end": 1838.86
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1838.86,
                      "end": 1839.26
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also bei den Daten, bei der Verengung, bei der Kontextualisierung und bei den Vorentscheidungsalgorithmen auf allen 3 Ebenen.",
                      "start": 1839.26,
                      "end": 1847.6799
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1825.845,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Die Datenebene ist noch, soll man sagen, relativ zugänglich, öffentliche Daten zugänglich machen.",
                      "start": 1848.165,
                      "end": 1853.765
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                  ],
                  "start": 1848.165,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau, hatten wir auch, also ist ja, haben wir auch ganz oft im Podcast schon gehabt, ne, Genau.",
                      "start": 1853.765,
                      "end": 1857.2051
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Als Thema, ja.",
                      "start": 1857.285,
                      "end": 1858.0851
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                  ],
                  "start": 1853.765,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau.",
                      "start": 1858.0851,
                      "end": 1858.5651
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja das Schöne bei dem Thema.",
                      "start": 1858.5651,
                      "end": 1860.005
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Man man entdeckt viele Themen, die man schon mal hatte, jetzt konzentriert auf eine Fragestellung, auf ein ein, ja, immer bedeutsamer werdendes Phänomen.",
                      "start": 1860.005,
                      "end": 1868.57
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, aber darüber eben auch hinaus.",
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                  ],
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, manchmal weiterhin.",
                      "start": 1870.5499,
                      "end": 1871.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Irgendwann wir ganz kurz bei den Daten natürlich andersrum, dann natürlich auch die Daten möglichst der Unternehmen in irgendeiner Form für andere Unternehmen, für Initiativen, für zivilgesellschaftliche Organisationen zugänglich machen in irgendeiner Form.",
                      "start": 1871.75,
                      "end": 1883.4349
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist auf diesem auf diesen Datenlayer, würd ich's mal nennen, der entscheidende Punkt.",
                      "start": 1883.815,
                      "end": 1888.455
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 1888.455,
                      "end": 1888.955
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Glaub ich.",
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                    }
                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Genau und dann gibt's natürlich auch noch 'n paar weitere Aspekte oder wenn man das weiterdenken möchte, dass das natürlich auch die Möglichkeit gibt, Anreize zu schaffen über Förderprogramme beispielsweise oder über Siegel, die man schaffen könnte, dass eben Gemeinwohlaspekte auch stärker berücksichtigt werden oder dass es erst mal 'n Rahmen dafür gibt, wie kann ich überhaupt Gemeinwohlaspekte stärker berücksichtigen?",
                      "start": 1890.64,
                      "end": 1913.735
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie kann ich das stärker integrieren?",
                      "start": 1913.875,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, die Forschung mehr zu fördern, dass es dass es Kriterien gibt, während des Metriken beispielsweise, ich werde nicht so tief in die Erstthema reingehen.",
                      "start": 1916.0349,
                      "end": 1924.4
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich glaube, das sprengt den Rahmen son bisschen.",
                      "start": 1924.54,
                      "end": 1926.56
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also, dass man erst mal dafür sorgt, dass es 'n Rahmen dafür gibt und das auch in Förderprogramm berücksichtigt und vielleicht auch so was schafft wie Siegel, an denen man sich dann orientieren kann und dann weiß, aha, das ist nicht nur auf Profit maximiert jetzt diese Anwendung, sondern die berücksichtigt auch andere Aspekte und dann kommt die mir und meinen Interessen ja vielleicht 'n bisschen mehr entgegen.",
                      "start": 1926.7001,
                      "end": 1949.72
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, also das eine wär mehr mit Blick auf die Entwicklung, also die Förderprogramme und die Standards und das andere wär dann mit mehr mit Blick auf die Verbraucherinnen und Verbraucher, dass die eben einfach transparent gucken können, okay, in dem digitalen Assistenten ist Gemeinwohl drin und in dem nicht, oder?",
                      "start": 1949.78,
                      "end": 1965.275
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                    {
                      "text": "Das oder ich hab's jetzt Entschuldigung, ich finde, ich mach das",
                      "start": 1965.275,
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "immer so einfach hier, aber Ja, ich find's ja super, genau.",
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ja, natürlich.",
                      "start": 1971.995,
                      "end": 1972.635
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                    {
                      "text": "Also son Siegel würde er zumindest mal dafür sprechen, dass es eine Chance gibt, dass Gemeinwohl drinsteckt.",
                      "start": 1972.635,
                      "end": 1978.49
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Den Aspekt darf man natürlich auch nicht vergessen.",
                      "start": 1978.79,
                      "end": 1980.97
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Du hast ja eben gefragt, was ist Gemeinwohl?",
                      "start": 1981.03,
                      "end": 1982.87
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja immer etwas schwierig zu fassen.",
                      "start": 1982.87,
                      "end": 1984.87
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 1984.87,
                      "end": 1985.37
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also sprich, man braucht immer auch die Verfahrensseite, die dann zum Beispiel, also wenn man beim Tourismus bleiben kann ich mir das hervorragend vorstellen, dass eine Gemeinschaft darüber diskutiert, was wollen wir denn unseren Gästen zeigen Ja.",
                      "start": 1985.4299,
                      "end": 1997.345
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "In der Stadt.",
                      "start": 1997.425,
                      "end": 1998.225
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ist das jetzt das Einkaufszentrum?",
                      "start": 1998.225,
                      "end": 1999.505
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ist das die Bibliothek oder die alte Kirche oder ich weiß es nicht, keine Ahnung.",
                      "start": 1999.505,
                      "end": 2003.01
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 1984.87,
                  "end": 2003.01,
                  "num_words": 61.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Das wäre ja durchaus auch eine Möglichkeit, dass man sich dann von von Einheimischen leiten lässt in seinem Ja,",
                      "start": 2003.17,
                      "end": 2008.77
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2003.17,
                  "end": 2008.77,
                  "num_words": 19.0,
                  "speaker": 1
                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "ist eigentlich 'n ganz großer Gedanke, ne.",
                      "start": 2008.77,
                      "end": 2010.29
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dann setzen sich alle in Berlin mal hin und sagen, nee, die sollen auch mal alle nach Moabit gehen und nicht immer nur nach Kreuz Köln, die Touristen.",
                      "start": 2010.29,
                      "end": 2015.99
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2008.77,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Zum Beispiel.",
                      "start": 2017.395,
                      "end": 2018.055
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 2018.115,
                      "end": 2018.275
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also im Wedding kenn ich einige schöne, wo Flecken.",
                      "start": 2018.275,
                      "end": 2021.015
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2017.395,
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                  "num_words": 12.0,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Okay.",
                      "start": 2024.035,
                      "end": 2024.535
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Vielleicht blicken wir noch mal 'n bisschen in die Zukunft.",
                      "start": 2024.595,
                      "end": 2026.8351
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also was was sind denn so Treiber?",
                      "start": 2026.8351,
                      "end": 2028.855
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also wir haben jetzt diesen Status quo mit vielen Sensoren, wir haben die Smart Speaker, die Entwicklung in der KI.",
                      "start": 2028.995,
                      "end": 2039.04
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also mir fällt's immer schwer, mir außerhalb des Status quo vorzustellen, wohin könnte das noch gehen mit den digitalen Assistenten Assistenten und wohin wo könnten dann auch die Möglichkeiten liegen, ne, also damit einhergehend.",
                      "start": 2039.04,
                      "end": 2048.795
                    }
                  ],
                  "start": 2024.035,
                  "end": 2048.795,
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                },
                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Was sind denn so die nächsten großen Schritte würdet ihr sagen?",
                      "start": 2049.9749,
                      "end": 2052.795
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also diese Verschmelzung im Prinzip von verschiedenen Anwendungen zusammen zu sonem All inclusive Assistenten, der einem dann bei allem hilft bei der Verkehrsführung und beim nicht zu lange Sitzen und bei allem, oder?",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Die 2 Entwicklung kann man ja jetzt schon beobachten.",
                      "start": 2064.68,
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                    {
                      "text": "Das eine ist genau diese Verschmelzung.",
                      "start": 2066.5999,
                      "end": 2068.0598
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Eine Sprachschnittstelle im Zweifel mittlerweile, die man hat, die dann halt mir alle Fragen beantwortet.",
                      "start": 2068.44,
                      "end": 2074.8152
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Und das andere ist, die Entscheidung dann tatsächlich auf den Assistenten zu übertragen.",
                      "start": 2075.2751,
                      "end": 2080.8152
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Mhm.",
                      "start": 2081.0352,
                      "end": 2081.435
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also buch mir das Ticket oder so was in der Richtung.",
                      "start": 2081.435,
                      "end": 2084.76
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Also gar nicht mehr der die Entscheidungsunterstützung zu nehmen und dann wie auch immer hinterfragen",
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                  ],
                  "start": 2081.435,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "oder nicht.",
                      "start": 2090.12,
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                    }
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ich schlage mir Tickets vor, sondern Genau.",
                      "start": 2090.44,
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                  ],
                  "start": 2090.44,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Buchs mir.",
                      "start": 2092.28,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 2093.32,
                      "end": 2093.8
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Dann dem zu folgen.",
                      "start": 2093.8,
                      "end": 2095.1
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das sind sicherlich 2 Sachen, die man schon wunderbar absehen kann.",
                      "start": 2096.04,
                      "end": 2098.6
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                  ],
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                {
                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Genau und das andere natürlich, dass digitale Assistenten immer präsenter werden, was genau durch verschiedene Aspekte getrieben ist, durch steigende Komplexität, durch eine immer größere Datenverfügbarkeit, dadurch, dass immer mehr Prozesse einfach auch ins Digitale ja wandern.",
                      "start": 2098.6,
                      "end": 2117.14
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Digitale Verwaltung erfreulicherweise ja sogar auch, dass auch da meine Prozesse zunehmend digital sind.",
                      "start": 2117.92,
                      "end": 2126.0198
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Genau und dass deshalb solche digitalen Assistenten ja potenziell auch immer mächtiger werden, weil sie einfach immer mehr Aspekte meines Lebens, immer mehr Entscheidungen in meinem Alltag bestimmen, einfach son ständiger Begleiter sind.",
                      "start": 2126.735,
                      "end": 2138.995
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                    {
                      "text": "Was dann vielleicht auch noch verstärkt wird, kommt doch noch mal auf unseren ganzen Kurzbeispiel zurück.",
                      "start": 2139.28,
                      "end": 2144.1802
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                    {
                      "text": "Ich könnt ja sagen, ja gut, den Blick zur Arbeit, den fahr ich jeden Tag, da brauch ich ja auch keine Navigationsapp, da fahr ich einfach, Aber was ist, wenn das jetzt selbstfahrende Autos sind?",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Da kann man ja schon erwarten, dass die halt permanent auf Assistenz, auf guten Optimierung angewiesen sind.",
                      "start": 2154.735,
                      "end": 2162.355
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das heißt, dass es auch da einfach immer umfassender, immer immer weit greifender wird und deshalb finden wir's ja auch so wichtig, dass man sich jetzt, wo diese Verbreitung immer mehr steigt, Gedanken darüber macht, was sind dann eigentlich die Werteinschreibungen?",
                      "start": 2162.495,
                      "end": 2177.1
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                    {
                      "text": "Was sind denn eigentlich die Interessen, die die Gestaltung dieser Assistenten leiten und die letztlich dann ja, hab ich schon gesagt, unsere Wahrnehmung unserer Umwelt, aber auch unsere Handlungen und letztlich damit auch unsere Gemeinschaft prägen.",
                      "start": 2177.8801,
                      "end": 2192.325
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                    {
                      "text": "Und dass man sich darüber mal Gedanken macht und sich überlegt, wie könnte es vielleicht auch anders gehen?",
                      "start": 2192.57,
                      "end": 2198.01
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Wie könnte es vielleicht auch besser sein für unser Gemeinwesen?",
                      "start": 2198.01,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Also jetzt wär 'n guter Moment, würdest Du sagen, also wo man Weichen noch stellen kann, aber eben schon absieht, dass sind auch wirklich, werden wichtige Weichen sein sozusagen.",
                      "start": 2202.97,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Ganz genau.",
                      "start": 2212.5051,
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                {
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                    {
                      "text": "Ja.",
                      "start": 2213.145,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Nach dem wunderbaren Schlusswort hab ich jetzt noch 2 Kleinigkeiten, die können wir loswerden.",
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                  ],
                  "start": 2213.145,
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Kann schon das Schlusswort?",
                      "start": 2216.905,
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                    {
                      "text": "Langes Schlusswort.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Ich wollt dann",
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                    {
                      "text": "auch noch sagen, Mike, was was mich so beeindruckt hat, ist, dass ja, wir haben jetzt immer digitale Assistenten gesagt, manche sagen auch Digital Companions, also was ja wie sone Art, weiß ich nicht, Wegbegleiter oder Bunny, ne, Freund sein kann, die wären ja auch immer Anthropomorfer.",
                      "start": 2220.0251,
                      "end": 2233.3901
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Das ist ja auch eine Sache, ne?",
                      "start": 2233.93,
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                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ist Ist es das, was Du sagen wolltest, meins?",
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                {
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                      "text": "Das war",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "mein zweiter Punkt, ja.",
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                {
                  "sentences": [
                    {
                      "text": "Aratom drin.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Mein erster, aber es hängt beides eng zusammen, meine erster ist, der Aspekt, den wir auch noch nicht so beleuchtet haben, ist Proaktivität.",
                      "start": 2239.965,
                      "end": 2245.345
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                    {
                      "text": "Also Du sagst, meine Routinenweg zur Arbeit, da brauche ich ja keinen Assistenten, Da bin ich mir nicht sicher.",
                      "start": 2246.045,
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                    {
                      "text": "Also es gibt ja schon so so Kalender, die mir dann sagen, oh, heute ist viel Verkehr, starte 'n bisschen schneller.",
                      "start": 2251.84,
                      "end": 2256.58
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                    {
                      "text": "Ist ja schon.",
                      "start": 2256.64,
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                    {
                      "text": "Proaktiv werd ich dann darauf hingewiesen und wer weiß, ich mach normalerweise genau diesen Weg und muss dann oder kann dann darauf reagieren.",
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                  "sentences": [
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                      "text": "Das bedeutet aber auch, dass ich ständig antitschbar sein muss und empfänglich sein muss für diesen Assistenten.",
                      "start": 2265.175,
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                    {
                      "text": "Und man hat ja schon gesagt, mit Brille haben wir viel überlegt damals, in dem Fahrrad sich nicht so durch Ich bin mir nicht sicher, wo da die Reise hingeht.",
                      "start": 2272.535,
                      "end": 2280.75
                    },
                    {
                      "text": "Ich glaube, der Trend ist genau da, wo Du's grade beschrieben hast.",
                      "start": 2280.75,
                      "end": 2283.63
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                    {
                      "text": "Es wird immer körpernäher.",
                      "start": 2283.63,
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                      "text": "Ja.",
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                      "text": "Aber wo es letztlich endet, ich als Brillenträger hätte nichts gegen Brille, aber trau ich mich jetzt nicht mehr.",
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                      "text": "Wir haben aber letztens auch eine Folge gemacht zu Mixed Reality Ja.",
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                      "text": "Zu Brillen.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Vielleicht haben sie ein Comeback, wir wissen's nicht.",
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                    {
                      "text": "Ja, danke euch beiden.",
                      "start": 2301.6348,
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                      "text": "Heute ging's digitale Assistenten, eine Live Folge von der Smart Country Convention.",
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                      "text": "Schön, dass ihr dabei wart.",
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                      "text": "Vielen Dank dir.",
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                      "text": "Danke dir.",
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                      "text": "Das war Restart digital, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT als Liveaufzeichnung von der Smart Country Convention.",
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                      "text": "Mit dabei waren Nicole Opiella und Doktor Mike Weber.",
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                      "text": "Und die passende Publikation zu dem Thema, das Whitepaper mit dem Namen das Gemeinwohlpotenzial digitaler Assistenten, das gibt's online unter öfid Punkt d e mit u e geschrieben.",
                      "start": 2326.425,
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                    {
                      "text": "Wenn ihr uns gerne zugehört habt, dann empfehlt den Podcast weiter.",
                      "start": 2337.06,
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                    {
                      "text": "Und wenn ihr's noch nicht getan habt, könnt ihr uns abonnieren kostenfrei auf Spotify, Apple und allerlei weiteren Portalen.",
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                      "text": "Ich sag tschüs, bis zum nächsten Mal dann wieder ganz klassisch aus dem Studio.",
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                      "text": "Ich bin Franziska Walser.",
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