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Die gute Nachricht ist, Hilfe ist in Sicht, in Form von Voll- oder Teilautomatisierung in der Verwaltung. In Österreich zum Beispiel wird die Familienbeihilfe, die ist so ähnlich wie unser Elterngeld, automatisch und ganz ohne Antrag überwiesen. Das freut nicht nur die Bürger*innen, sondern auch die Verwaltungsangestellten. Die haben nämlich dann mehr Zeit für die komplizierten Fälle, wenn die Standardanfragen automatisch bearbeitet werden. Wir sprechen heute im öfid Podcast digital darüber, wie Verwaltungsrechtsverfahren digitalisiert oder sogar automatisiert werden können und natürlich auch über mögliche Hürden auf dem Weg dahin. Mein Name ist Franziska Walser und meine beiden Co Hosts sind im Studio hier in Tegel Professor Peter Pariczek. Er ist Leiter des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin. Außerdem ist er Professor an der Uni Krems und Mitglied im Direktorium des rbb. Hallo Peter. Hallo Franziska. Und zugeschaltet ist uns Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT. Hallo Nicole. Hallo Franziska. Ich hab mir gedacht, als ich mich eingearbeitet hab in das Thema, ist ja eigentlich 'n totales Match. Also juristische Vorgänge müssten sich eigentlich super leicht automatisieren lassen, weil Gesetze ja im Grunde Entscheidungsregeln sind. Also wenn ich mit 100 KMH durch eine Ortschaft brettere und ich werd erwischt, dann verliere ich meinen Führerschein zum Beispiel, ne. Und 'n Algorithmus ist ja auch ein Rechenvorgang nach einem bestimmten Schema, was Regelhaftes. Das heißt, eigentlich passt es doch super zusammen. Wo ist das Problem? Ja, auf den ersten Blick passt es perfekt zusammen, nicht? Und das haben sich viele auch schon in der Vergangenheit gedacht und sich dann immer wieder daran gemacht, dass man Gesetze automatisiert, mechanisiert. Da gibt's eine lange Geschichte und die geht eigentlich zurück bis ins ja bis ins römische Recht oder auch ins preußische Landrecht, wo man sich gedacht hat, man kann doch das Recht so genau abbilden und dass alle alle Möglichkeiten des täglichen Lebens dann in 1 mechanischen, wenn das passiert, dann kommt Folgendes zum Tragen. Und das Faszinierende ist, alle Projekte sind bisher gescheitert. Mhm. Also richtig son ganz weit zurückreichender Menschheitstraum eigentlich, das Ja, Menschheitstraum ist jetzt vielleicht die Frage, wer ist Mensch Oder ein Herrschertraum. Ein Herrschertraum, ja, ein Herrscherinnentraum im Sinne von die apolloistischen Herrscher, Herrscherinnen haben ihren eigenen Beamtinnen und Richter und Richterinnen eigentlich nicht vertraut. Das das steckt ein bisschen dahinter und wollten daher sichergehen, dass ihre Interpretation der Wahrheit und der Gerechtigkeit und der Ausführung der Gesetze so eng beschrieben ist, dass gewährleistet ist, dass ihr Wille tatsächlich auch umgesetzt wird und nicht 1 weiteren Interpretation obliegt durch Beamte, Beamtinnen oder Richter und Richterinnen. Ja, also dieses, was wir erkennen, so Auslegung, Ermessensspielraum, solche Sachen wollte man da ausschalten, ne? Exakt. Und warum klappt's nicht? Weil das Leben so bunt ist, weil das die die die Rechtskonflikte ja immer wieder 'n neues Chaos hervorbringen. Also der der Mensch und seine Auseinandersetzung mit der Wirklichkeit ist so vielfältig und führt eigentlich an den Stellen ganz klar ins ins in das Chaos der der Streitigkeiten könnte man das fast bezeichnen, währenddessen die die einfachen Abbildungen mit wenn dann dazu einfach nicht ausreicht. Aber jetzt haben wir ja, also zum Beispiel KI, also es gibt ja neue technische Möglichkeiten. Also, würdest Du oder auch Du Nicole, würde dir sagen, es ist jetzt, es ist wirklich mal greifbar, sind wir kurz davor, dass wir es jetzt wirklich mal schaffen? Wir haben jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Voraussetzungen. Also, wenn man sich das in der Vergangenheit anguckt, diesen Versuch, Recht tatsächlich, mechanisiert abzubilden. Die Regeln, die Gesetze, die müssen ja immer recht allgemein sein, aber in der Anwendung müssen sie dann ja auf den konkreten Einzelfall angewendet werden. Und das Leben ist da einfach so vielfältig und deswegen ist das Recht an an vielen Stellen ja, allgemein unspezifisch, bietet dadurch aber auch Möglichkeiten, es unterschiedlich zu interpretieren und auch weiterzuentwickeln. Das ist ja auch erforderlich, weil unsere Gesellschaft entwickelt sich auch weiter. Ansonsten werden die Regelungen, wenn ich sie erlasse, ja schon fast wieder veraltet. Ich müsste sie ständig updaten. Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit, updaten. Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit über Rechtsvorbildung, über Weiterentwicklung, einfach wie sich das Leben entwickelt dem auch und wie sich unsere Gesellschaft auch entwickelt, wie sich gewisse Werte entwickeln, das auch mit geltendem Recht trotzdem abbilden zu können. Na ja, und bei dieser Formulierung des Rechts, da ist man eben an diesen unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffen vielfach gescheitert. Man ist aber auch vielfach daran gescheitert, ja, dass ich einfach dass ich einfach gar nicht genug Zugang hatte zu Daten, zu Informationen, zu Gerichtsurteilen und so weiter. Da hat sich in letzter Zeit natürlich sehr viel getan. Die Rechenleistung ist auch enorm gestiegen. Das war auch was, woran so die ersten Versuche der Formalisierung in den Siebzigerjahren irgendwann an Grenzen gestoßen sind und dadurch hab ich jetzt mehr Möglichkeiten, dass ich mehr Daten habe, die auch in elektronischer Form vorliegen, dass Akten zunehmend auch elektronisch geführt werden und so weiter und da hab ich natürlich was, was ich auch brauche, wenn ich tatsächlich sage, dass ich jetzt KI einsetze, wobei es gibt natürlich verschiedene Arten von KI, aber das, was wir aktuell natürlich vor allem unter KI diskutieren, das sind natürlich Systeme, die einfach auch eine sehr große Datenbasis benötigen. Und da hab ich jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Möglichkeiten als in der Vergangenheit. Ob die Datenmengen allerdings ausreicht, auch jetzt an diesem Punkt, das ist immer noch fraglich, weil KI braucht wirklich Unmengen an Daten, selbstständig Regeln ableiten zu können. Okay, genau. Also das mit mit dem Datenverfügbarkeit, das hab ich verstanden. Kannst könnt ihr noch mal erklären diese unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffe? Das ist nämlich spannend und ich glaub, wenn man einsteigt in das Thema, versteht man nicht sofort, was gemeint ist. Also zum Beispiel Wohnsitz oder Einkommen, das sind ja Wörter, die sind uneindeutig auf eine Art, ne? Die stehen in Es gibt ja viele Gesetze mehrfach drin und meinen was anderes. Das ist das Problem, oder? Du hast jetzt sogar etwas ausgewählt, was wo man auf den ersten Blick als als Laie denken könnte, na ja, dieser Begriff, der lässt sich ja eindeutig beschreiben. Weil Wohnsitz ist da, wo ich meine Post hinschicke. Exakt, ja. Ja. Oder der Jugendliche oder das das Einkommen oder der Vermögensbegriff, da könnte man auf den ersten Blick glauben, das müsste doch überall gleich definiert sein in den Gesetzen. Und selbst bei diesen Begriffen findet sich eine unglaubliche Vielfalt in den unterschiedlichen Gesetzen, die je nachdem, vielleicht ausm politischen Kompromiss heraus, vielleicht aufgrund der Sachlage in diesen Bereichen es tatsächlich zu unterschiedlichen Begriffen kommt. Also beim Einkommensbegriff sind es weit über 10 unterschiedliche Formen, die man in einem Gutachten des Normenkontrollrats festgestellt hat. Nur dieses Beispiel zu bringen und dann gibt's ja noch tatsächlich die unbestimmten Begriffe, die noch eine viel größere Möglichkeit der Auslegung der Auslegung ermöglichen. So was wie baldmöglichst oder so was oder Die erworben. Wurden Wunderbare Beispiele, die ihr beide jetzt grade gebracht habt. Und die sind das sind halt diese Gesetzesbegriffe, die dazu dienen, so wie Nicole das schon angesprochen hat, dass das Recht sich fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickeln kann. Das mag jetzt für Außenstehende noch befremdlicher wirken. Wenn man an ein Gesetz denkt, dann verbindet man sich ja nicht Dynamik damit oder dass es sich das fortlaufend verändert. Das ist aber im Hintergrund tatsächlich so. Also Okay. Recht ist nicht statisch, auch wenn Gesetze statisch wirken. Es wird fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickelt durch die Rechtsprechung beispielsweise oder auch durch fortlaufende Novellierungen und neuen Fällen. Also das das ist das, was man von außen oft nicht sieht, wie viel Dynamik eigentlich in so den Faden, wenn ich das so sagen darf, es in den Fadenrechtstext eigentlich drinnen steckt. Ja und das heißt, das ist vielleicht auch gar keine Schludrigkeit, sondern es ist vielleicht Absicht, weil baldmöglichst kann in Zeiten von Postkutschen was anderes heißen als von E-Mail. Exakt. Also das das ist so gewollt. Quasi. Es ist also, wenn man also jetzt in der IT Sprache sagt, es ist nicht 'n Pack, ja. Es ist 'n ganz eindeutigen Feature, dass von Beginn an in der in der in der in der Rechtslehre und und in der Rechtspraxis so bewusst eingesetzt wird. Mhm. Okay und aber das macht jetzt eben diese Digitalisierung schwer, weil Das hat's immer schwer gemacht in der Mechanisierung von Beginn an und weiterhin auch in der Digitalisierung, weil wir noch immer unterschiedliche Logiken in diesen Systemen haben. Nicht also wir haben einmal die die die doch sehr starre Computerlogik mit 0 1, ja nein, wenn dann. Und dem gegenüber steht die die Rechtslogik, die einen Vielzahl von Interpretationen, Schattierungen zulässt. Also ein ganz anderes logisches Prinzip, das das sich in den Rechtstexten und in der Rechtsanwendung dann wiederfindet. Wenn man das vielleicht mit dem Vergleich hinterlegt, dass der Rechtstext ist wie ein Gedicht. Mhm. Die Poesie, die man fortlaufend auch immer wieder unterschiedlich interpretieren kann. Mhm. Also gute Gedichte haben ja eine eine Vielzahl von Interpretationsmöglichkeiten. Währenddessen die Computerlogik wäre eher im Sinne von einem Kochrezept Ja. Oder sagen wir's noch drastischer, Backrezept. Weil wenn man sich beim Backrezept nicht an exakt an die Mengen hält, dann wird der Kuchen in aller Regel nichts. Und so ist es in der Computerlogik. Also Poesie versus Bug Rezept, ums vielleicht mit einem plastischen Beispiel zu bringen. Ja. Es gibt ja verschiedene juristische Bereiche. Also wenn wir jetzt hier übers Verwaltungsrecht sprechen, ist das vielleicht noch zugänglicher für solche Vorgänge als jetzt, sagen wir mal, zum Beispiel das Familienrecht oder andere Rechte? Absolut, also das war 1 der Gründe, warum wir das Rechtsgutachten sehr stark auf das öffentliche Recht fokussiert haben, auf das Verwaltungsrecht, weil hier noch viel genauer exakter beschrieben wird, wie die Verwaltung tatsächlich auch die Verfahren durchführen muss, ist sehr streng und eng an das Gesetz gebunden, an den Gesetzeswortlaut gebunden. Das Gegenstück dazu wär das Zivilrecht. Das Zivilrecht ist dann überhaupt die ganz große Innovationsspielwiese, wo Anwälte und Anwältinnen wechselseitig über Verträge bestmögliche Interpretationen für ihre Klienten und Klientinnen versuchen zu zu etablieren. Das heißt, hier hab ich eine viel größere Dynamik noch als im im Verwaltungsrecht und hier ist eine Automatisierung des Rechts bis auf ein paar Standardfälle wie ein einfacher Kaufvertrag, ein einfacher Mietvertrag ist hier so gut wie nicht anwendbar. Hier wird's immer die die Innovationskraft der Juristen, Juristinnen brauchen. Deren Arbeit kann man dann, kommen wir vielleicht später noch drauf, kann man sehr stark unterstützen mit den Werkzeugen. Aber hier ist die Vielfalt noch mal größer als im Vergleich dazu im Bereich des Verwaltungsrechts. Ja, genau, da kommen wir gleich dazu, weil es gibt ja auch so was wie eine Teilautomatisierung. Es gibt ja Zwischenstufen und Und Nicole, weil Du gerade diese Datengrundlage angesprochen hast, vielleicht ist auch die Datengrundlage besser, oder? In der Verwaltung, weil man da ja Zugriff drauf hat wahrscheinlich auf die ganzen Urteile und Formulare. Ja und nein genau. Also es gibt natürlich für Verwaltungsverfahren, für diese Formalisierung, über die wir schon gesprochen haben, gibt es Hilfswerkzeuge wie Formulare, die ich dann ja ausfüllen muss, beispielsweise wenn ich irgendetwas beantrage. Wenn wir aber darüber sprechen, Daten, die vielleicht vorhanden sind, die ich vielleicht benötige für gewisse Verfahren, schon, jetzt kommen wir dann doch schon zu Schritte auch automatisch ausführen zu können. Da ist die Grundlage tatsächlich noch nicht so gut. Registermodernisierungsgesetz ist auf den Weg gebracht worden, weil es einfach noch keine Verknüpfung zwischen den unterschiedlichen Registern gibt, ich da nicht unbedingt die Abrufmöglichkeiten habe. Das soll verwirklicht werden, aber das ist einfach davon sind wir halt noch weit entfernt. Deswegen das steht dem dann doch noch 'n bisschen entgegen Und Verwaltungsentscheidungen und darum geht's ja konkret. Die Verwaltungs-, die Sachbearbeitenden, die bearbeiten die Fälle, die entscheiden dann entsprechend. Und da gibt's aber auch keine Datenbanken, in denen das nachgehalten würde, wo ich dann sagen könnte, das könnt da könnte jetzt ein System erlernen, wie gewisse Entscheidungen gefällt werden. Da bin ich dann tatsächlich doch wieder eher angewiesen auf Gerichtsurteile, wenn dann gewisse Entscheidungen angefochten wurden. Okay, also quasi die auf der Sachbearbeiter*innen Ebene, also das wird nicht dokumentiert, so dieses ich bewillige den Antrag, ich bewillige ihn nicht. Also das ist das, was fehlt, oder? Genau, genau das. Aber natürlich, ne, dadurch, dass Entscheidungen natürlich auch angefochten werden, Widersprüche eingelegt werden, hab ich dann doch eine kleinere Grundlage auf jeden Fall, anhand derer ich lernen könnte. Und an sich hat die Verwaltung ja auch den Anspruch Selbstbindung der Verwaltung, dass ich auch ein konsistentes Verwaltungshandeln habe und dass ich nicht abhängig von der Person, die das gerade bearbeitet, eine solche oder eine solche Entscheidung habe, sondern genau, dass die dass die Entscheidungen der Verwaltung auch konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewerte, konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewertet wird. Und dann kann man natürlich sagen, auch wenn es einen Ermessensspielraum gibt, wenn ich natürlich schon so und so viele Entscheidungen gefällt habe, dann hab ich ja doch eine Grundlage, anhand derer ich mich auch diesem Ermessensspielraum annähern kann und dieses Ermessen vielleicht auch ein bisschen vermessen kann, was dann uns wieder in Richtung 1 möglichen Automatisierung, Teilautomatisierung führen kann. Ich würd noch mal gerne auf die andere Seite eingehen, also auf die Bürger*innen. Das ist ja schon son bisschen angeklungen in dem, was Du gesagt hast, dass die einfach ja auch 'n Recht drauf haben, dass egal, ob sie jetzt in Erfurt wohnen oder in München, ja im Prinzip dasselbe rauskommen sollte bei so 'ner Verwaltungsentscheidung. Also es gibt ja auch von der Datenethikkommission 'n Gutachten, das zu dem Schluss gekommen ist, dass der Staat sogar angehalten ist, algorithmische Systeme im Interesse der Bürger*innen zu nutzen. Könnt ihr da noch mal was dazu sagen? Also was haben die davon, wenn das automatisiert wird oder teilautomatisiert? Das geht ein bisschen in die Richtung der der Rechtssicherheit, die umfasst, dass tatsächlich bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten es zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen kommt. Also ich sag ganz bewusst schon ähnlich, weil die Sachverhalte ja in aller Regel nie Ganz leicht sind, ja. Aber dass man dort dorthin kommt. Das steht ein wenig dem einem einem anderen Rechtsprinzip entgegen, das ist die Einzelfallgerechtigkeit, die in Deutschland sehr stark gelebt wird und momentan eigentlich höher bewertet wird als die Rechtssicherheit. Das ist durchaus eine politische Fragestellung, weil die beiden Prinzipien kann man kann man haben keine es gibt keine Hörwertigkeit, das eine oder das anderen, daher ist es durchaus eine politische Entscheidung. Und wir haben momentan ganz sicher ein Übergewicht im in der Einzelfallentscheidung. Und die steht natürlich 1 eine Automatisierung, 1 Teilautomatisierung doch teilweise sehr massiv entgegen und führt durchaus auch zu gefühlten Ungerechtigkeiten. Dass einmal das bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten einmal so und das andere mal so entschieden wird. Das kann gefühlt sein, weil's vielleicht tatsächlich gute Gründe gibt, warum das warum es anders entschieden wurde. Kann aber tatsächlich auch sein, dass es dass es ja an der an der Auslegung liegt und und es nicht echte Gründe dafür gibt, dass man zu unterschiedlichen Entscheidungen kommt und somit dem Prinzip der Rechtssicherheit daher eigentlich widerspricht, ja darauf ist die Datenethik gekommen, sondern eingegangen im Sinne von, dass algorithmische Systeme da zu 1 höheren Rechtssicherheit und somit gefühlten Gerechtigkeit auch führen können. Mhm. Weil's ja auch so was wie 'n menschlichen Bias gibt zum Beispiel, ne? Ich würd das, also menschlichen Bias ja, aber das kann durchaus auch sein, weil's einfach eine andere Übung hat. Weil in dieser einen Behörde das aus Generationen schon anders interpretiert wurde als von der Behörde, die vielleicht 20 Kilometer entfernt ist. Also das das das muss jetzt nicht unbedingt ein ein ein echter Bayer sein Ja. Also im Sinne von Vorurteile, die man die damit ja auch oft verbunden sind, sondern sondern tatsächlich einfach anders gelebte Rechtspraxis in 1 bestimmten Behörde. Ja, okay. Und was aber die Bürger*innen wahrscheinlich auf jeden Fall davon hätten, wär ja eine schnellere Bearbeitung und eine reibungslosere oder könnte man das versprechen? Auf alle Fälle und ich glaub, das ist auch die die große Chance, die die in dieser Automatisierung und da muss man jetzt auch ganz wichtig dazusagen, ob das jetzt KI ist oder ob das ein einfaches ein einfaches Programm ist, das gut nachvollziehbar ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systemären ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systeme braucht, wo wir ja dann oft diese Frage der Blackbox haben. Also wie man das automatisiert, sei an der Stelle ganz kurz Ja. Dahingestellt, aber wir haben wir hätten dann den großen Vorteil, dass wenn gewisse Sachverhalte vorliegen, ich bekomme ein Kind und Kind ist geboren, Name steht fest, Daten werden übermittelt, ich automatisch auch dann das Kindergeld überwiesen bekomm auf das Konto der Mutter. Also das könnte durchaus ein Fall sein, wo ein großer Mehrwert entsteht. Es muss vielleicht nicht einmal mein Antrag gestellt werden. Das führt dann zur Beschleunigung der Auszahlung inklusive auch der Durchführung, also auch der Exekution dann der Durchführung des des Verwaltungshandels mit der Überweisung des Geldes. Und das wär natürlich ein großer Vorteil. Und das ist ja gar nicht hypothetisch, sondern das ist ja was, was praktisch gemacht wird. Also da gibt's ja dieses Beispiel aus Österreich Ja. Wo genau das passiert. Das heißt da nicht Kindergeld, das heißt Familienbeihilfe. Exakt, das ist heißt anderer Titel in Österreich hat den einen Vorteil, dass es tatsächlich in Österreich nur die Mutter ist, deswegen brauch ich nicht Entscheidung, wem überweis ich das Geld? Das ist das erste Problem. Das Gesetz in Deutschland sind bisschen anders, also ganz also ähnliche bis gleiche Richtwirkung, hat aber die Möglichkeit es auch, den Vater auszuzahlen, was in Österreich gar nicht der Fall ist. Da bekommt sie einfach die Mutter und deswegen ist es tatsächlich 1 der Gründe, warum's leichter automatisierbar ist. Und an dem Beispiel sehen wir, dass es im Kern dann auch immer wieder die Frage ist, wie komplex sind meine Gesetze? Und wie einfach kann ich sie dann tatsächlich in in eine Wenn dann Entscheidung bringen und automatisiert dann in die in die Umsetzung. Genau, da kommen wir nämlich auch gleich noch dazu. Möglicherweise müssen Gesetze auch ganz anders verfasst werden, ne. Das da machen wir am Ende noch mal 'n Schlenker zu, aber ich würde gern noch mal über diese Zwischenstufen sprechen. Also was Du jetzt gerade angesprochen hast, Peter, das wär ja eine Vollautomatisierung, ne? Also es Genau. Und eure Publikationen, die der Anlass ist dafür, dass wir hier sprechen, die heißt von der Digitalisierung zur Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren. Also es heißt, es gibt 'n von bis Mhm. Digitalisierung bis Automatisierung. Was wären da Zwischenstufen davon oder was ist überhaupt das eine und was ist das andere sozusagen? Na, die Vollautomatisierung wäre das Beispiel, das wir gerade jetzt durchgesprochen haben. Also ich hab ein vollautomatisiertes Verwaltungsverfahren, das wenn alle Elemente vorliegen, ich automatisiert dann eine Zuwendung beispielsweise bekomm. Kann man sich, glaub ich, gut vorstellen. Teilautomatisiert wäre, dass man zumindest die Punkte, die unzweifelhaft sind, also die ich ihn wenn dann gut abbilden kann. Mhm. Und wo ich vielleicht auch die die Datenpunkte, das hat Nicole Cole ja das angesprochen. Wir brauchen ja oft, da reden wir jetzt gar nicht von Big Data, sondern da kann man jetzt von Small Data sprechen. Wir brauchen ja die Datenpunkte zu den Personen. Also wie ist dein Name? Wie ist dein Zivilstand? Hast Du Kinder, die dazu geteilt sind? Was ist dein Einkommen? Also all diese Datenpunkte sind teilweise digitalisiert, teilweise aber auch noch nicht digitalisiert, teilweise erreichbar, also abrufbar und teilweise auch nicht abrufbar. Und das macht's so schwierig heutzutage gerade in Deutschland, weil diese Datenpunkte so verstreut sind, die Verwaltungsverfahren Vollautomatisierung oder auch eine Teilautomatisierung vorzunehmen, weil man zuerst die Knochenarbeit machen muss, alle Datenbanken so aufzubauen, dass sie erreichbar sind, abrufbar sind und dass diese Datenbanken tatsächlich auch dieser Punkt der verwaltungsrechtlichen Wahrheit in Anspruch nehmen können, damit diese Datenpunkte dann automatisiert im Verwaltungsverfahren verarbeitet werden können. Mhm. Und da gibt's halt Länder, die die da wesentlich weiter sind. Österreicher hat beispielsweise seit mehr als 25 Jahren werden dort Register aufgebaut und ähnlich ist es in den skandinavischen Ländern oder auch in den baltischen Staaten, die da auch immer wieder genannt werden. Die haben einfach alle Verwaltungsdatenpunkte gut miteinander verknüpft. Heißt nicht, dass sie für jedermann abrufbar sind Genau, weil es gibt natürlich den Datenschutz auch. Gesagt, genau. Das ist auch in in den unterschiedlichen Ländern also ist es unterschiedlich gelöst. In Estland hat man eine hohe Transparenz, da sehe ich genau, wann hat wer auf meine Daten zugegriffen, eine sehr charmante Lösung und aus welchem Grund wird quasi der Bürger und die Bürgerin wird zum eigenen Datenschützer über seine Daten, bei der weiß ja unter sie weiß ja am besten, ob's 'n Verwaltungsverfahren gegeben hat oder nicht. Und ja, und das sind das das das ist sicher eine der größten Herausforderungen, die Nicole auch angesprochen hat mit der Registermodernisierung in Deutschland, die jetzt erst begonnen hat und sicher für den ersten größeren Wurf mal 3 bis 5 Jahre dauern wird und im Vollausbau wahrscheinlich auch bis zu 7 bis 10 Jahre dauern kann. Okay, aber das ist also die Grundlage, die wir brauchen und dann, was wär denn 'n Beispiel für eine Teilautomatisierung, die dann möglich wäre? Also wo der Mensch noch 'n Faktor ist, Mhm. Aber schon Arbeit gemacht wird im Vorfeld von, weiß ich nicht, KI Algorithmen, was auch immer. Na, das könnte tatsächlich jetzt so ein ein Punkt sein bei der beim beim Kindergeld. Das gewisse Punkte ist Sinn schon vorhanden. Das und dass man dann zu dem Punkt kommt, eine dass die Behörde aktiv nachfragt, soll das Kindergeld ausgezahlt werden an den Vater oder an die Mutter. Die das wäre dann bis dorthin wär's voll automatisiert. Ab dem Zeitpunkt gibt's da 'n Bürger*innenkontakt und basierend auf der Antwort kann dann das Verfahren weitergeführt werden. Okay. Hast Du vielleicht auch 'n Beispiel, Nicole? Also was ja auch denkbar wäre, also es gibt auch diesen Begriff Assistenz, ne, wo man sagt, wir suchen zum Beispiel in alten Urteilen und dann kriegt man, also so hab ichs verstanden, wie so eine Empfehlung mit, also 90 Prozent aller Leute, die mit diesem Fall befasst waren, haben so und so entschieden. Ja, tatsächlich ein gutes Beispiel, was es dafür gibt, kommt dann wiederum aus Österreich, also. Nämlich dieser AMS Algorithmus, der Arbeitsuchende in verschiedene Kategorien einteilt, je nach der Wahrscheinlichkeit, wie erfolgreich sie in den Arbeitsmarkt integriert werden können. Der AMS steht für Arbeitsmarktchancenassistenzsystem, ne, das AMS Algorit. Genau und das ist dann auch als Unterstützung gedacht für die für die Mitarbeitenden. Also da wird jetzt nichts per se entschieden, aber damit sie einfach wissen, okay, das ist schon mal das System hat anscheinend hat dann halt verschiedener Datenpunkte, ist zu dem und dem Ergebnis gekommen. Das heißt, die Person braucht vielleicht mehr oder weniger Unterstützung oder Unterstützung in dieser oder jeder Hinsicht. Das wäre ein ein Beispiel, was mir dann noch einfallen würde. Der aber nicht unumstritten war, ne, dieser AMS Algorithmus, weil der ja auch drüber entschieden hat, kriege ich zum Beispiel eine Fortbildung bezahlt oder gibt mir der Algorithmus gar keine Chance, oder? Absolut, höchst umstritten und ist auch so letztendlich nicht in den Volleinsatz gekommen. Ist auch ein schönes Beispiel dafür, was wir alles unter KI packen. Mhm. Dieser Algorithmus, Du hast das ja richtig ausgesprochen, es war jetzt nicht KI, aber es ist oft unter KI Debatte gelaufen. Dahinter war ein relativ simpler Algorithmus, der statistisch berechnet hat, Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass diese Person durch eine Weiterbildung zukünftig eine Stelle bekommen wird, sodass die Mittel, die Idee durchaus ja interessant, dass die Mittel gut gesteuert sind. Also ich hab ein gewisses Budget als Arbeitsmarktservice, das ich einsetzen kann, Personen weiterzuhelfen, damit sie sich wieder weiter qualifizieren können und somit die Jobchancen steigen am Arbeitsmarkt. An sich eine gute Idee, nur wenn man das dann im im Praktischen auf den Einzelfall herunterbricht, muss ich auch dazu sagen, das hat nichts automatisiert gemacht, das war ein reines Assistenzinformation zu finden. Also es hat gesagt, ich würde hier eine Fortbildung empfehlen, ich würde sie nicht empfehlen, hätte, genau. Es es hätte nur die Chancen dargestellt für den für den Berater, die Beraterin des Arbeitsmarktservice. Also das wär gar nicht sichtbar geworden direkt für die arbeitssuchende Person. Aber wir sehen schon, wer will von 'nem Algorithmen muss die Antwort bekommen, dass er unvermittelbar ist. Also da steckt einfach sozial auch viel Spannung drinnen und was auf den ersten Blick vielleicht gut gemeint war, kommt man dann im zweiten Schritt drauf, dass das vielleicht nicht ganz, dass das ethisch nicht vereinbar ist mit unserer, zumindest mit unseren Werten, die wir in unserer Gesellschaft pflegen. Ja, weil's ja auch, also Du hast es gesagt, es ist nicht KI, aber man kennt ja diese Reproduktion von, also zum Beispiel Stereotyp. Frauen haben Ja. Schlechte Chancen aufm Arbeitsmarkt und dann wer hat, dem wird gegeben und wer nicht hat, der kriegt halt keine Fortbildung, ne? Also dass man so was dann Exakt. Ja. Mhm. Wunderbar, ja, wunderbar dargestellt, ja. Also dass diese stereotypische Abbildung von von von von von Mensch und Personen. Ja, okay. 'N anderes Beispiel, was ich auch in der Publikation gefunden hab, was ich spannend fand, waren Heat Maps. Das ist was, was Ordnungskräfte, also Polizei unterstützen kann, zum Beispiel. Ich weiß nicht, wahrscheinlich könnt ihr's besser erklären, aber wo Einbruchschwerpunkte sind, ne? Das wär zum Beispiel auch 'n Nutzungsbeispiel. Ja, geht geht geht geht's geht's so ja noch weiter so, dass das Feld in den in den Bereich, der interessanterweise auch schon vor vor der generativen KI ein sehr, sehr, sehr hitzig debattiert wurde im Prädiktive Policing, also die Vorhersage, weiß ich glaub, Dominative Report gesehen hast, wo die Polizei quasi schon den den Einsatz geplant hat Bevor die Tat. Bevor das Verbrechen, bevor der Mord im schlimmsten Fall tatsächlich auch stattfindet. Das geht ein bisschen in diese Richtung, wo auf Basis von unterschiedlichen Datenpunkten eine Vorhersage getroffen wird, wo man vielleicht zukünftig stärker mit Polizei präsent ist, vielleicht potenzielle Verbrechen zu verhindern. Und das sind die Ergebnisse aber sehr gemischt. Funktioniert vielleicht in einem voll kontrollierten System, also wo ich wo ich die die Daten aus dem öffentlichen Raum vielleicht durchgehend auswerten kann, also bis hin zu indem ich vermesse, was es alles zu vermessen gibt, also von Körpertemperatur, der Art und Weise, wie sich Menschen bewegen, wie sie sprechen. All diese Datenpunkte, wenn ich die zusammenführe, vielleicht kann ich auf der Basis dann im öffentlichen Raum tatsächlich vieles vorhersagen, was potenziell passieren könnte, aber das ist sicher kein Raum, in dem wir zumindest in Europa leben wollen. Okay. Da gibt's durchaus Beispiele vor allem aus dem asiatischen Raum, die weit über das hinausgehen, was wir uns eigentlich vorstellen wollen. Das ist dann tatsächlich gelebte Dystopie, die sich aber vielleicht auch gut anfühlt, weil sie sich sicher anfühlt. Das ist dann fast schon 'n paradoxer Zustand. Mhm. Also gut, dann wir kommen hier so in ethische Fragen rein, waren aber ja auch gerade bei den bei den sehr praktischen Fragen. Nicole, willst Du da noch mal was dazu sagen zu diesen ethischen Fragen, weil man könnte ja auch sagen, ist blöd, dass Deutschland da jetzt so hinterherhängt, aber andererseits auch eine Chance, weil man ja sehen kann, oha, in Österreich hat dieser Algorithmus für Kritik gesorgt. Also würdest Du sagen, wir sind jetzt schon schlauer darüber, zum Beispiel unter welchen Umständen es Bürger*innen auch akzeptieren, wenns so voll- oder teilautomatisierte Sachen gibt im Verwaltungsrecht? Ja, das sind ja jetzt viele Fragen in einigen. Ja, das Also ich wollte auch nicht sagen, dass es per se gut ist, dass wir da hinterherhängen. Ich muss sagen, da hat sich auch viel getan, beispielsweise mit den Datenlaboren der Bundesministerien, die natürlich auch mit KI, mit großen Sprachmodellen, aber für die Verwaltung intern beispielsweise Informationen aufzufinden, zu gucken, wer muss wie beteiligt werden, für solche Verfahren da durchaus schon viel macht und das auch sehr erfolgreich. Aber das andere sind natürlich, wenn die Verwaltung mit Außenwirkung handelt, also im Verhältnis zu Bürgerinnen, Bürger oder Unternehmen, dass da natürlich dann vielleicht einfach noch mehr Sicherungsmechanismen eingebaut werden müssen, denn AMS Algorithmus haben wir schon gesagt, war sehr umstritten. Da gab's auch noch in der Vergangenheit ja andere in der Sozialverwaltung auch Skandale weltweit in anderen Ländern, wo Systeme eingesetzt wurden, wo dann die dann einfach fehlerhaft waren an der einen oder anderen Stelle oder wo dann tatsächlich ein Bias drin war, gewisse Gruppen ja tatsächlich systematisch diskriminiert wurden. Denn wir haben gesagt, das ist natürlich einerseits 'n Vorteil, wenn ich ein System habe, ja, dass dass ich dieses Verwaltungshandeln 'n bisschen vereinheitlichen kann, dass ich stärker sicherstellen kann, dass Ähnliches tatsächlich zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen führt. Aber das führt natürlich auch dazu, wenn ich da irgendwo 'n Fehler drin habe, dann hab ich den auch nicht nur in dieser einen Behörde oder nicht nur bei dem einen Sachbearbeitenden, sondern halt auch flächendeckend. Das heißt, da sind dann sehr viel mehr Personen gegebenenfalls auch negativ betroffen. Und da muss ich natürlich ganz genau hinschauen, weil es gibt ganz ganz verschiedene Wege, wie son Bias auch in son System hineinkommen kann und da muss ich eben über Risikomanagement, über eine kontinuierliche Qualitätssicherung und Evaluation, auch über eine Transparenz versuchen, das zu ja möglichst auszuschließen und in in dem Papier wird ja auch immer wieder dafür argumentiert, dass man vielleicht auch im Sinne der Akzeptanz sagen sollte, solche automatisierten Entscheidungen tatsächlich oder Empfehlungen auch nur in begünstigenden Quellen zuzulassen. Wie zum Beispiel, Du kriegst Kindergeld? Genau, also da wird wahrscheinlich keiner was dagegen haben, Ja. Wenn das Da hat man sowieso genug zu tun, wenn das wenn das nicht Wenn das was ist, womit man sich Worum man sich nicht auch noch kümmern muss, wenn das einfach automatisch passiert. Genau, wenn da jetzt aber plötzlich Kindergeld zurückgefordert wird oder mir irgend eine Leistung gestrichen wird oder sonstiges, dass das dann etwas wäre, was eben nicht automatisiert wird. Einfach genau diese diese gesellschaftliche Akzeptanz auch zu sichern. Ja, ja das wären sehr praktisch im Einsatz. Genau und was wir was wir dann, wenn man tatsächlich sagt, auch so Begünstigende wie Kindergeld, wenn man das automatisiert, ein Vorteil, den wir eben noch gar nicht angesprochen haben ist, weswegen auch die Datenschutzkommission sich ja dafür ausgesprochen hatte, weil es auch eine inklusive Wirkung hat. Also gerade im Sozialbereich, die die Anträge, die sind teilweise sehr, sehr umfangreich und je nach nach meiner Konstitution ist das vielleicht auch mehr als ich, also ist das überfordert mich das vielleicht auch einfach. Also da haben auch ja Sozialverbände teilweise sehr viel mit zu tun, zu unterstützen, einfach diese Anträge auszufüllen und dass man da sagt, wenn ich da so weit automatisieren würde, wie es möglich ist, wie ich eben Daten habe et cetera, man bekommen vielleicht auch mehr Personen diese Leistungen, auf die ihnen eigentlich Stand der Sachlage auch zustehen würde und ich eben den Aufwand für sie reduzieren hätte, also eine inklusive Wirkung. Ja, das noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, das ist gut, dass Du das noch mal gesagt hast, das war da, wo wir ja drüber gesprochen haben, was haben eigentlich die Bürger*innen davon? Das würde dann wirklich zu mehr Gerechtigkeit führen, weil dann Leute eben möglicherweise gar keinen Antrag stellen müssen in 'ner fremden Sprache in 'nem komplizierten Verwaltungsdeutsch, sondern die kriegen einfach das Geld, was ihnen zusteht. Das ist natürlich wär natürlich toll, ja. Peter, Du wolltest auch noch was sagen zu dem Thema. Ja, vielleicht nur ergänzend, das das führt also nicht nur Gerechtigkeit, sondern auch, dass die Politik ja in aller Regel der Ausgangspunkt ist für eine Sozialmaßnahme, dass diese Politik tatsächlich auch ihre Wirkung erzeugt. Also Politik, die keine Wirkung erzeugt, ist ja muss sollte ja zumindest dann fortlaufend noch angepasst werden. Und es gibt tatsächlich Verfahren im Sozialbereich, wo nur ein Drittel der potenziellen Personen, die dazu antragsberechtigt, also antragsberechtigt prinzipiell jeder, aber die auch eine Chance haben, tatsächlich diese diese Förderung zu bekommen, diese Unterstützungsleistung zu bekommen, nur ein Drittel das in Anspruch nimmt. Also damit sieht man eigentlich, kann man fast sagen, die Politik ist gescheitert, wenn 2 Drittel gar nicht in der Lage sind, offensichtlich diese Sozialleistungen in Anspruch zu nehmen. Also spielen auch andere Sachen rein wie Scham oder solche Sachen Scham, sehr schön. Wahr halt auch die Hürden, ne. Selbst absolut. Sind nicht sind auch andere, aber auch das wäre natürlich reduziert. Auch an an dieser Hürde, wenn ich unter Umständen dann nur noch sagen muss, ja, nein. Mhm. So das kann man ja kann man ja sehr wohl auch noch offen lassen, dass man so weit geht die Vollautomatisierung und dann die letzte Frage stellt, willst Du die Zuwendung haben oder nicht? Ja. Also das zeigt schon sehr deutlich, dass da hohe Mehrwerte damit verbunden sein können. Mir sind noch 2 Punkte aufgefallen und zwar der Bias in den Daten, weil da immer wieder so stark diskutiert wird. Das Bittere am Bias in den Daten ist, dass es leider Gottes in aller Regel die Wirklichkeit widerspiegelt. Mhm. Also die Ungerechtigkeit, die wir bereits in unseren Gesellschaften haben, spiegeln sich in den Daten wider. Wir sagen dann immer so salopp, der Bias in den Daten und und haben damit und damit sind wir schon fertig, weil die Daten sind schuld. Na ja, viel viel stärker ist es tatsächlich durch die Daten hab ich eine extrem hohe Transparenz und sehe die Ungerechtigkeiten, die ich in Gesellschaften hab. Also das vielleicht zu dir zu der zu der Bias Diskussion ein Punkt und der andere, weil ein bisschen so war versus hat Deutschland 'n Vorteil oder 'n Nachteil. Das kommt jetzt drauf an. In den Bereichen der tatsächlich Automatisierung, wo ich die exakten Datenpunkte brauch aus den Datenbanken, aus den Registern, die wir zuerst beschrieben haben, damit ich so eine Automatisierung machen kann. Wie ist dein Name? Wo bist Du geboren? Wie ist dein Kind? Wie ist dein wie ist dein Einkommen? Da brauch ich die exakten Daten. Da hat Deutschland tatsächlich einen großen Nachteil aktuell. Und der das wird auch nicht so leicht und so schnell aufzuholen sein, weil's hier eben, da muss ich an die an an die Register, an die Datenbanken heran. In den Bereichen von Assistenzsystemen kann das ganz anders sein. Also da liegt's viel mehr an der Innovationskraft. Welche Daten hab vorhanden, wie Nicole das kurz angesprochen hat. Da kann ich Beratungsassistenten bauen mit Daten, die vorhanden sind innerhalb 1 Behörde, die dann die Arbeit, die tagtägliche Arbeit unterstützen von Beamten und Beamtinnen. Und in dem Bereich, wenn wir da schauen, da liegt jetzt Deutschland nicht hinter Österreich. Okay. Da würd ich sogar sagen, da ist also auf gleichauf, wenn ich wenn ich da wenn nicht sogar vorne, weil wir mehr Innovationen in den Bereichen in Deutschland sehen als in Österreich. Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, wo man hinschaut. Also ist es jetzt die Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren, dann großer Nachteil, ist es die Innovationskraft, die man jetzt mit generativen KI Systemen, also textbasierten Systemen bauen kann, dann dann hat Deutschland jetzt nicht den Riesen Nachteil, also könnt man jetzt wieder in Details gehen, aber da und da sehen wir auch immer wieder auch viel Innovation. Ich würde jetzt gerne noch einen Punkt, den wir so kurz angesprochen haben, der aber glaube ich auch wichtig ist bei dem wie macht man's richtig, die Gesetzesformulierungen. Also wann ist ein Gesetz automatisierungstauglich? Da wird ja zum Beispiel in Dänemark immer schon geprüft, bevor 'n Gesetz erlassen wird. Ja. Das machen wir ja in Deutschland nicht. Könnt ihr dazu noch mal was sagen? Die Dänen haben das tatsächlich in der in der vollen Bandbreite. Also diskutiert wird's an vielen Stellen. Es gibt auch in es gibt auch gab in Österreich und vor allem jetzt in Deutschland ein ein Projekt dazu und das das Recht in der Entstehung schon digitalisierungsfreundlich auszugestalten. Der Digitalcheck war das. Mhm. Ich geh auch davon aus, dass der in der nächsten Bundesregierung ganz sicher auch wieder ein Thema sein wird. Das ist ein sehr gut aufgesetztes Projekt, das sich genau dieser Frage eben stellt, wie können Verwaltungs, vor allem Verwaltungsgesetze, Verwaltungsrecht so von Beginn an gedacht werden, dass es möglichst gut digitalisierbar ist? Und deine Frage, was muss ich beachten, klingt jetzt fast banal, wenn ich drauf sag, die Sprache sollte einfach sein. Mehr Kochrezept. Einfach, ja, ein und und und einfacher Sprache, also hat auch dann einen positiven Nebeneffekt. Das ist dann vielleicht auch für durchschnittlichen Bürger, Bürgerinnen einfacher verständlich oder Geschäfts Geschäftsfrau. Das ist zum Beispiel 1 der ersten Prinzipien, das die Dänen anwenden. Wie Du's richtig angesprochen hast, die Dänen haben das haben diese Prinzipien sogar im Parlament beschlossen, parteiübergreifend. Es war ein einstimmiger Beschluss des Parlaments, dass die Gesetze in Dänemark geprüft werden, bevor sie vom Parlament beschlossen werden auf ihre Digitalisierungsfreundlichkeit und das ist einfache Sprache. Das ist die Automatisierung soll immer auch mitgedacht werden. Es soll von Beginn an digital gedacht werden und natürlich auch die elektronische Kommunikation von Anfang an mitgedacht werden und berücksichtigt werden. Das sind so die stärksten Prinzipien. Es gibt da noch weitere, aber das sind, glaube ich, die die großen 4, auf die jeder schaut, sobald ein neues Gesetz geschrieben wird oder auch ein altes Gesetz novelliert wird. Das kann dann vielleicht bedeuten, dass es nicht mehr 15, 20 unterschiedliche Begriffe für Einkommen und Vermögen gibt, sondern dass es vielleicht nur noch 3 gibt mit 3 Berechnungsformeln. Und das kann dann schon wesentlich erleichtern, wie Gesetze tatsächlich dann auch digitalisiert werden können. Ja, genau. Das fand ich noch mal 'n schönen Punkt, weil man's da wirklich von Anfang an so viel richtig machen kann und sich's dann so viel einfacher macht auf dem Weg dahin, ja. Genau. Und entstehen nur die Gesetze aller Regel in den Ministerien. Mhm. Die Erstentwürfe, die dann in den politischen Diskurs gehen und daher muss man das wirklich von Sekunde 0, wenn ich das so sagen darf, eigentlich schon mitdenken. Sei's die Juristen, Juristinnen, die Legisten, Legistinnen, die die wirklich das erste Mal auf dem weißen Blatt Papier beginnen zu schreiben, denen muss das schon bewusst sein von Sekunde 0. Ja. Was muss ich denn alles bedenken, digital tauglich gute Gesetze schreiben zu können? Zieht sich dann natürlich schon auch in den in den parlamentarischen Diskurs, weil auch hier das Bewusstsein da sein muss. Da 1 der Gründe, warum die Gesetze so komplex sind in Deutschland, also wirklich noch mal komplexer als in Österreich und da Österreich legt die Latte schon relativ hoch, aber Deutschland springt da mit 1 Leichtigkeit noch mal weit darüber. Ist der politische Diskurs ist noch mal intensiver, auch mit den Ländern. Mhm. Und jeder politischer Kompromiss spiegelt sich dann oft auch im Gesetzestext wider, wird unbestimmter oder es gibt die nächste die es gibt weitere Ausnahmen, die dann die die die Durchführung der Gesetze und auch die Digitalisierung der Gesetze so unglaublich erschweren. Also wir sehen, wie all diese Elemente, auf die man vielleicht zuerst gar nicht hinschaut, einen einen eine Wirkung haben können auf digitalisierungsfreundliche Gesetze. Mhm. Also vom Legisten der Legistin bis hin zum politischen Diskurs im im im im Bundestag. Ja, okay. Genau, das ist ja beim Digitalcheck, der auf Bundesebene eingeführt worden ist, sind die Prinzipien gehen in eine ganz ähnliche Richtung. Auch Automatisierung soll mitgedacht werden, elektronische Kommunikation, sind Daten schon vorhanden und können vielleicht wiederverwendet werden. Da hat der Digitalservice 5 Prinzipien auch entwickelt, wahrscheinlich auch in Anlehnung an Dänemark, genau weiß ich's aber nicht. Ah ja, hab ich mir schon fast gedacht, dass die sich wahrscheinlich auch international nach Best Practice Beispielen umgeschaut haben und was da auch immer forciert wird und was auch dazu beiträgt, ja das da haben wir ja schon drüber gesprochen, diese Denkweise ist so unterschiedlich zwischen der Digitalisierung und der juristischen Sprache und das son bisschen zu überbrücken, werden Visualisierungen da ganz groß gemacht. Also, dass ich tatsächlich dieses komplette Verfahren, wie es abläuft, einmal visualisiere als Flussdiagramm oder sonstiges, weil dann kann ich Abhängigkeiten viel klarer sehen. Das geht dann wieder in Richtung Wenn Dann Regelung gegebenenfalls. Dann fällt mir auch auf, wenn da vielleicht irgendwo Medienbrüche drin sind, wenn Prozesse vielleicht ineffizient sind, wenn ich an verschiedenen Stellen dieselben Daten wieder abfrage und wenn ich das einmal in der Form visualisiert habe, dann ist das eine gute Grundlage, das hinterher vielleicht auch digital umsetzen zu können Und es führt auch zu 'ner erhöhten Transparenz. Wie läuft das Verfahren ab und erleichtert auch die Kommunikation und wie gesagt, diesen Brückenschlag son bisschen zwischen diesen doch sehr in ihren Logiken sehr unterschiedlichen Disziplinen. Ja. Ja, zu den Ausführungen von Nicole und wenn das wenn das alles dann so in in dieser Schönheit umgesetzt ist, wie Nicole das jetzt grad beschrieben hat und der nächsten Bundesregierung, digitalisierungstaugliche Gesetze so entstehen, dann kommen wir vielleicht ein bisschen weg vom Gedicht und der Poesie hin doch zu einem stärker einem Backrezept in Form der zukünftigen des zukünftigen Verwaltungsrechts. Und die muss es auch geben, kann auch viel Schönes sein, son gelungener Kuchen. Danke euch beiden. Danke sehr. Gern. Das war, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT. Ich danke meinen Gästen Professor Peter Pariczek und Nicole Opieller, Leiter und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin. Die passende Publikation zum Thema findet ihr online unter ö fit Punkt d e mit o e geschrieben und das Link in den Shownotes. Ihr könnt diesen Podcast gerne abonnieren, kostenfrei auf Apple Podcasts, Spotify und vielen weiteren Portalen. Dann bekommt ihr immer Bescheid, wenn eine neue Folge erscheint, also ganz automatisch. Mein Name ist Franziska Walser, ich freu mich auf das nächste Mal. 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Wer will schon zum Beispiel auf die Bewilligung des Elterngeldes warten, wenn die nächste Miete ansteht und das Leben mit einem Säugling sowieso schon alles auf den Kopf stellt. Die gute Nachricht ist, Hilfe ist in Sicht, in Form von Voll- oder Teilautomatisierung in der Verwaltung. In Österreich zum Beispiel wird die Familienbeihilfe, die ist so ähnlich wie unser Elterngeld, automatisch und ganz ohne Antrag überwiesen. Das freut nicht nur die Bürger*innen, sondern auch die Verwaltungsangestellten.\n\nDie haben nämlich dann mehr Zeit für die komplizierten Fälle, wenn die Standardanfragen automatisch bearbeitet werden. Wir sprechen heute im öfid Podcast digital darüber, wie Verwaltungsrechtsverfahren digitalisiert oder sogar automatisiert werden können und natürlich auch über mögliche Hürden auf dem Weg dahin. Mein Name ist Franziska Walser und meine beiden Co Hosts sind im Studio hier in Tegel Professor Peter Pariczek. Er ist Leiter des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin. Außerdem ist er Professor an der Uni Krems und Mitglied im Direktorium des rbb.\n\nHallo Peter.\n\nSpeaker 1: Hallo Franziska.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und zugeschaltet ist uns Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT. Hallo Nicole.\n\nSpeaker 2: Hallo Franziska.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich hab mir gedacht, als ich mich eingearbeitet hab in das Thema, ist ja eigentlich 'n totales Match. Also juristische Vorgänge müssten sich eigentlich super leicht automatisieren lassen, weil Gesetze ja im Grunde Entscheidungsregeln sind. Also wenn ich mit 100 KMH durch eine Ortschaft brettere und ich werd erwischt, dann verliere ich meinen Führerschein zum Beispiel, ne. Und 'n Algorithmus ist ja auch ein Rechenvorgang nach einem bestimmten Schema, was Regelhaftes. Das heißt, eigentlich passt es doch super zusammen.\n\nWo ist das Problem?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, auf\n\nSpeaker 1: den ersten Blick passt es perfekt zusammen, nicht? Und das haben sich viele auch schon in der Vergangenheit gedacht und sich dann immer wieder daran gemacht, dass man Gesetze automatisiert, mechanisiert. Da gibt's eine lange Geschichte und die geht eigentlich zurück bis ins ja bis ins römische Recht oder auch ins preußische Landrecht, wo man sich gedacht hat, man kann doch das Recht so genau abbilden und dass alle alle Möglichkeiten des täglichen Lebens dann in 1 mechanischen, wenn das passiert, dann kommt Folgendes zum Tragen. Und das Faszinierende ist, alle Projekte sind bisher gescheitert.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Also richtig son ganz weit zurückreichender Menschheitstraum eigentlich, das\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, Menschheitstraum ist jetzt vielleicht die Frage, wer ist Mensch\n\nSpeaker 0: Oder ein Herrschertraum.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ein Herrschertraum, ja, ein Herrscherinnentraum im Sinne von die apolloistischen Herrscher, Herrscherinnen haben ihren eigenen Beamtinnen und Richter und Richterinnen eigentlich nicht vertraut. Das das steckt ein bisschen dahinter und wollten daher sichergehen, dass ihre Interpretation der Wahrheit und der Gerechtigkeit und der Ausführung der Gesetze so eng beschrieben ist, dass gewährleistet ist, dass ihr Wille tatsächlich auch umgesetzt wird und nicht 1 weiteren Interpretation obliegt durch Beamte, Beamtinnen oder Richter und Richterinnen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, also dieses, was wir erkennen, so Auslegung, Ermessensspielraum, solche Sachen wollte man da ausschalten, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Exakt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und warum klappt's nicht?\n\nSpeaker 1: Weil das Leben so bunt ist, weil das die die die Rechtskonflikte ja immer wieder 'n neues Chaos hervorbringen. Also der der Mensch und seine Auseinandersetzung mit der Wirklichkeit ist so vielfältig und führt eigentlich an den Stellen ganz klar ins ins in das Chaos der der Streitigkeiten könnte man das fast bezeichnen, währenddessen die die einfachen Abbildungen mit wenn dann dazu einfach nicht ausreicht.\n\nSpeaker 0: Aber jetzt haben wir ja, also zum Beispiel KI, also es gibt ja neue technische Möglichkeiten. Also, würdest Du oder auch Du Nicole, würde dir sagen, es ist jetzt, es ist wirklich mal greifbar, sind wir kurz davor, dass wir es jetzt wirklich mal schaffen?\n\nSpeaker 2: Wir haben jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Voraussetzungen. Also, wenn man sich das in der Vergangenheit anguckt, diesen Versuch, Recht tatsächlich, mechanisiert abzubilden. Die Regeln, die Gesetze, die müssen ja immer recht allgemein sein, aber in der Anwendung müssen sie dann ja auf den konkreten Einzelfall angewendet werden. Und das Leben ist da einfach so vielfältig und deswegen ist das Recht an an vielen Stellen ja, allgemein unspezifisch, bietet dadurch aber auch Möglichkeiten, es unterschiedlich zu interpretieren und auch weiterzuentwickeln. Das ist ja auch erforderlich, weil unsere Gesellschaft entwickelt sich auch weiter.\n\nAnsonsten werden die Regelungen, wenn ich sie erlasse, ja schon fast wieder veraltet. Ich müsste sie ständig updaten. Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit, updaten. Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit über Rechtsvorbildung, über Weiterentwicklung, einfach wie sich das Leben entwickelt dem auch und wie sich unsere Gesellschaft auch entwickelt, wie sich gewisse Werte entwickeln, das auch mit geltendem Recht trotzdem abbilden zu können. Na ja, und bei dieser Formulierung des Rechts, da ist man eben an diesen unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffen vielfach gescheitert.\n\nMan ist aber auch vielfach daran gescheitert, ja, dass ich einfach dass ich einfach gar nicht genug Zugang hatte zu Daten, zu Informationen, zu Gerichtsurteilen und so weiter. Da hat sich in letzter Zeit natürlich sehr viel getan. Die Rechenleistung ist auch enorm gestiegen. Das war auch was, woran so die ersten Versuche der Formalisierung in den Siebzigerjahren irgendwann an Grenzen gestoßen sind und dadurch hab ich jetzt mehr Möglichkeiten, dass ich mehr Daten habe, die auch in elektronischer Form vorliegen, dass Akten zunehmend auch elektronisch geführt werden und so weiter und da hab ich natürlich was, was ich auch brauche, wenn ich tatsächlich sage, dass ich jetzt KI einsetze, wobei es gibt natürlich verschiedene Arten von KI, aber das, was wir aktuell natürlich vor allem unter KI diskutieren, das sind natürlich Systeme, die einfach auch eine sehr große Datenbasis benötigen. Und da hab ich jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Möglichkeiten als in der Vergangenheit.\n\nOb die Datenmengen allerdings ausreicht, auch jetzt an diesem Punkt, das ist immer noch fraglich, weil KI braucht wirklich Unmengen an Daten, selbstständig Regeln ableiten zu können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, genau. Also das mit mit dem Datenverfügbarkeit, das hab ich verstanden. Kannst könnt ihr noch mal erklären diese unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffe? Das ist nämlich spannend und ich glaub, wenn man einsteigt in das Thema, versteht man nicht sofort, was gemeint ist. Also zum Beispiel Wohnsitz oder Einkommen, das sind ja Wörter, die sind uneindeutig auf eine Art, ne?\n\nDie stehen in Es gibt ja viele Gesetze mehrfach drin und meinen was anderes. Das ist das Problem, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Du hast jetzt sogar etwas ausgewählt, was wo man auf den ersten Blick als als Laie denken könnte, na ja, dieser Begriff, der lässt sich ja eindeutig beschreiben.\n\nSpeaker 0: Weil Wohnsitz ist da, wo ich meine Post hinschicke.\n\nSpeaker 1: Exakt, ja. Ja. Oder der Jugendliche oder das das Einkommen oder der Vermögensbegriff, da könnte man auf den ersten Blick glauben, das müsste doch überall gleich definiert sein in den Gesetzen. Und selbst bei diesen Begriffen findet sich eine unglaubliche Vielfalt in den unterschiedlichen Gesetzen, die je nachdem, vielleicht ausm politischen Kompromiss heraus, vielleicht aufgrund der Sachlage in diesen Bereichen es tatsächlich zu unterschiedlichen Begriffen kommt. Also beim Einkommensbegriff sind es weit über 10 unterschiedliche Formen, die man in einem Gutachten des Normenkontrollrats festgestellt hat.\n\nNur dieses Beispiel zu bringen und dann gibt's ja noch tatsächlich die unbestimmten Begriffe, die noch eine viel größere Möglichkeit der Auslegung der Auslegung ermöglichen.\n\nSpeaker 0: So was wie baldmöglichst oder so was oder\n\nSpeaker 1: Die erworben. Wurden Wunderbare Beispiele, die ihr beide jetzt grade gebracht habt. Und die sind das sind halt diese Gesetzesbegriffe, die dazu dienen, so wie Nicole das schon angesprochen hat, dass das Recht sich fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickeln kann. Das mag jetzt für Außenstehende noch befremdlicher wirken. Wenn man an ein Gesetz denkt, dann verbindet man sich ja nicht Dynamik damit oder dass es sich das fortlaufend verändert.\n\nDas ist aber im Hintergrund tatsächlich so. Also Okay. Recht ist nicht statisch, auch wenn Gesetze statisch wirken. Es wird fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickelt durch die Rechtsprechung beispielsweise oder auch durch fortlaufende Novellierungen und neuen Fällen. Also das das ist das, was man von außen oft nicht sieht, wie viel Dynamik eigentlich in so den Faden, wenn ich das so sagen darf, es in den Fadenrechtstext eigentlich drinnen steckt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja und das heißt, das ist vielleicht auch gar keine Schludrigkeit, sondern es ist vielleicht Absicht, weil baldmöglichst kann in Zeiten von Postkutschen was anderes heißen als von E-Mail. Exakt. Also das das ist so gewollt. Quasi.\n\nSpeaker 1: Es ist also, wenn man also jetzt in der IT Sprache sagt, es ist nicht 'n Pack, ja. Es ist 'n ganz eindeutigen Feature, dass von Beginn an in der in der in der in der Rechtslehre und und in der Rechtspraxis so bewusst eingesetzt wird.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Okay und aber das macht jetzt eben diese Digitalisierung schwer, weil\n\nSpeaker 1: Das hat's immer schwer gemacht in der Mechanisierung von Beginn an und weiterhin auch in der Digitalisierung, weil wir noch immer unterschiedliche Logiken in diesen Systemen haben. Nicht also wir haben einmal die die die doch sehr starre Computerlogik mit 0 1, ja nein, wenn dann. Und dem gegenüber steht die die Rechtslogik, die einen Vielzahl von Interpretationen, Schattierungen zulässt. Also ein ganz anderes logisches Prinzip, das das sich in den Rechtstexten und in der Rechtsanwendung dann wiederfindet. Wenn man das vielleicht mit dem Vergleich hinterlegt, dass der Rechtstext ist wie ein Gedicht.\n\nMhm. Die Poesie, die man fortlaufend auch immer wieder unterschiedlich interpretieren kann. Mhm. Also gute Gedichte haben ja eine eine Vielzahl von Interpretationsmöglichkeiten. Währenddessen die Computerlogik wäre eher im Sinne von einem Kochrezept Ja.\n\nOder sagen wir's noch drastischer, Backrezept. Weil wenn man sich beim Backrezept nicht an exakt an die Mengen hält, dann wird der Kuchen in aller Regel nichts. Und so ist es in der Computerlogik. Also Poesie versus Bug Rezept, ums vielleicht mit einem plastischen Beispiel zu bringen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Es gibt ja verschiedene juristische Bereiche. Also wenn wir jetzt hier übers Verwaltungsrecht sprechen, ist das vielleicht noch zugänglicher für solche Vorgänge als jetzt, sagen wir mal, zum Beispiel das Familienrecht oder andere Rechte?\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolut, also das war 1 der Gründe, warum wir das Rechtsgutachten sehr stark auf das öffentliche Recht fokussiert haben, auf das Verwaltungsrecht, weil hier noch viel genauer exakter beschrieben wird, wie die Verwaltung tatsächlich auch die Verfahren durchführen muss, ist sehr streng und eng an das Gesetz gebunden, an den Gesetzeswortlaut gebunden. Das Gegenstück dazu wär das Zivilrecht. Das Zivilrecht ist dann überhaupt die ganz große Innovationsspielwiese, wo Anwälte und Anwältinnen wechselseitig über Verträge bestmögliche Interpretationen für ihre Klienten und Klientinnen versuchen zu zu etablieren. Das heißt, hier hab ich eine viel größere Dynamik noch als im im Verwaltungsrecht und hier ist eine Automatisierung des Rechts bis auf ein paar Standardfälle wie ein einfacher Kaufvertrag, ein einfacher Mietvertrag ist hier so gut wie nicht anwendbar. Hier wird's immer die die Innovationskraft der Juristen, Juristinnen brauchen.\n\nDeren Arbeit kann man dann, kommen wir vielleicht später noch drauf, kann man sehr stark unterstützen mit den Werkzeugen. Aber hier ist die Vielfalt noch mal größer als im Vergleich dazu im Bereich des Verwaltungsrechts.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, genau, da kommen wir gleich dazu, weil es gibt ja auch so was wie eine Teilautomatisierung. Es gibt ja Zwischenstufen und Und Nicole, weil Du gerade diese Datengrundlage angesprochen hast, vielleicht ist auch die Datengrundlage besser, oder? In der Verwaltung, weil man da ja Zugriff drauf hat wahrscheinlich auf die ganzen Urteile und Formulare.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja und nein genau. Also es gibt natürlich für Verwaltungsverfahren, für diese Formalisierung, über die wir schon gesprochen haben, gibt es Hilfswerkzeuge wie Formulare, die ich dann ja ausfüllen muss, beispielsweise wenn ich irgendetwas beantrage. Wenn wir aber darüber sprechen, Daten, die vielleicht vorhanden sind, die ich vielleicht benötige für gewisse Verfahren, schon, jetzt kommen wir dann doch schon zu Schritte auch automatisch ausführen zu können. Da ist die Grundlage tatsächlich noch nicht so gut. Registermodernisierungsgesetz ist auf den Weg gebracht worden, weil es einfach noch keine Verknüpfung zwischen den unterschiedlichen Registern gibt, ich da nicht unbedingt die Abrufmöglichkeiten habe.\n\nDas soll verwirklicht werden, aber das ist einfach davon sind wir halt noch weit entfernt. Deswegen das steht dem dann doch noch 'n bisschen entgegen Und Verwaltungsentscheidungen und darum geht's ja konkret. Die Verwaltungs-, die Sachbearbeitenden, die bearbeiten die Fälle, die entscheiden dann entsprechend. Und da gibt's aber auch keine Datenbanken, in denen das nachgehalten würde, wo ich dann sagen könnte, das könnt da könnte jetzt ein System erlernen, wie gewisse Entscheidungen gefällt werden. Da bin ich dann tatsächlich doch wieder eher angewiesen auf Gerichtsurteile, wenn dann gewisse Entscheidungen angefochten wurden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, also quasi die auf der Sachbearbeiter*innen Ebene, also das wird nicht dokumentiert, so dieses ich bewillige den Antrag, ich bewillige ihn nicht. Also das ist das, was fehlt, oder?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, genau das. Aber natürlich, ne, dadurch, dass Entscheidungen natürlich auch angefochten werden, Widersprüche eingelegt werden, hab ich dann doch eine kleinere Grundlage auf jeden Fall, anhand derer ich lernen könnte. Und an sich hat die Verwaltung ja auch den Anspruch Selbstbindung der Verwaltung, dass ich auch ein konsistentes Verwaltungshandeln habe und dass ich nicht abhängig von der Person, die das gerade bearbeitet, eine solche oder eine solche Entscheidung habe, sondern genau, dass die dass die Entscheidungen der Verwaltung auch konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewerte, konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewertet wird. Und dann kann man natürlich sagen, auch wenn es einen Ermessensspielraum gibt, wenn ich natürlich schon so und so viele Entscheidungen gefällt habe, dann hab ich ja doch eine Grundlage, anhand derer ich mich auch diesem Ermessensspielraum annähern kann und dieses Ermessen vielleicht auch ein bisschen vermessen kann, was dann uns wieder in Richtung 1 möglichen Automatisierung, Teilautomatisierung führen kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich würd noch mal gerne auf die andere Seite eingehen, also auf die Bürger*innen. Das ist ja schon son bisschen angeklungen in dem, was Du gesagt hast, dass die einfach ja auch 'n Recht drauf haben, dass egal, ob sie jetzt in Erfurt wohnen oder in München, ja im Prinzip dasselbe rauskommen sollte bei so 'ner Verwaltungsentscheidung. Also es gibt ja auch von der Datenethikkommission 'n Gutachten, das zu dem Schluss gekommen ist, dass der Staat sogar angehalten ist, algorithmische Systeme im Interesse der Bürger*innen zu nutzen. Könnt ihr da noch mal was dazu sagen? Also was haben die davon, wenn das automatisiert wird oder teilautomatisiert?\n\nSpeaker 1: Das geht ein bisschen in die Richtung der der Rechtssicherheit, die umfasst, dass tatsächlich bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten es zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen kommt. Also ich sag ganz bewusst schon ähnlich, weil die Sachverhalte ja in aller Regel nie Ganz\n\nSpeaker 0: leicht sind, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Aber dass man dort dorthin kommt. Das steht ein wenig dem einem einem anderen Rechtsprinzip entgegen, das ist die Einzelfallgerechtigkeit, die in Deutschland sehr stark gelebt wird und momentan eigentlich höher bewertet wird als die Rechtssicherheit. Das ist durchaus eine politische Fragestellung, weil die beiden Prinzipien kann man kann man haben keine es gibt keine Hörwertigkeit, das eine oder das anderen, daher ist es durchaus eine politische Entscheidung. Und wir haben momentan ganz sicher ein Übergewicht im in der Einzelfallentscheidung. Und die steht natürlich 1 eine Automatisierung, 1 Teilautomatisierung doch teilweise sehr massiv entgegen und führt durchaus auch zu gefühlten Ungerechtigkeiten.\n\nDass einmal das bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten einmal so und das andere mal so entschieden wird. Das kann gefühlt sein, weil's vielleicht tatsächlich gute Gründe gibt, warum das warum es anders entschieden wurde. Kann aber tatsächlich auch sein, dass es dass es ja an der an der Auslegung liegt und und es nicht echte Gründe dafür gibt, dass man zu unterschiedlichen Entscheidungen kommt und somit dem Prinzip der Rechtssicherheit daher eigentlich widerspricht, ja darauf ist die Datenethik gekommen, sondern eingegangen im Sinne von, dass algorithmische Systeme da zu 1 höheren Rechtssicherheit und somit gefühlten Gerechtigkeit auch führen können. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 0: Weil's ja auch so was wie 'n menschlichen Bias gibt zum Beispiel, ne?\n\nSpeaker 1: Ich würd das, also menschlichen Bias ja, aber das kann durchaus auch sein, weil's einfach eine andere Übung hat. Weil in dieser einen Behörde das aus Generationen schon anders interpretiert wurde als von der Behörde, die vielleicht 20 Kilometer entfernt ist. Also das das das muss jetzt nicht unbedingt ein ein ein echter Bayer sein Ja. Also im Sinne von Vorurteile, die man die damit ja auch oft verbunden sind, sondern sondern tatsächlich einfach anders gelebte Rechtspraxis in 1 bestimmten Behörde.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. Und was aber die Bürger*innen wahrscheinlich auf jeden Fall davon hätten, wär ja eine schnellere Bearbeitung und eine reibungslosere oder könnte man das versprechen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Auf alle Fälle und ich glaub, das ist auch die die große Chance, die die in dieser Automatisierung und da muss man jetzt auch ganz wichtig dazusagen, ob das jetzt KI ist oder ob das ein einfaches ein einfaches Programm ist, das gut nachvollziehbar ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systemären ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systeme braucht, wo wir ja dann oft diese Frage der Blackbox haben. Also wie man das automatisiert, sei an der Stelle ganz kurz Ja. Dahingestellt, aber wir haben wir hätten dann den großen Vorteil, dass wenn gewisse Sachverhalte vorliegen, ich bekomme ein Kind und Kind ist geboren, Name steht fest, Daten werden übermittelt, ich automatisch auch dann das Kindergeld überwiesen bekomm auf das Konto der Mutter. Also das könnte durchaus ein Fall sein, wo ein großer Mehrwert entsteht. Es muss vielleicht nicht einmal mein Antrag gestellt werden.\n\nDas führt dann zur Beschleunigung der Auszahlung inklusive auch der Durchführung, also auch der Exekution dann der Durchführung des des Verwaltungshandels mit der Überweisung des Geldes. Und das wär natürlich ein großer Vorteil.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und das ist ja gar nicht hypothetisch, sondern das ist ja was, was praktisch gemacht wird. Also da gibt's ja dieses Beispiel aus Österreich Ja. Wo genau das passiert. Das heißt da nicht Kindergeld, das heißt Familienbeihilfe.\n\nSpeaker 1: Exakt, das ist heißt anderer Titel in Österreich hat den einen Vorteil, dass es tatsächlich in Österreich nur die Mutter ist, deswegen brauch ich nicht Entscheidung, wem überweis ich das Geld? Das ist das erste Problem. Das Gesetz in Deutschland sind bisschen anders, also ganz also ähnliche bis gleiche Richtwirkung, hat aber die Möglichkeit es auch, den Vater auszuzahlen, was in Österreich gar nicht der Fall ist. Da bekommt sie einfach die Mutter und deswegen ist es tatsächlich 1 der Gründe, warum's leichter automatisierbar ist. Und an dem Beispiel sehen wir, dass es im Kern dann auch immer wieder die Frage ist, wie komplex sind meine Gesetze?\n\nUnd wie einfach kann ich sie dann tatsächlich in in eine Wenn dann Entscheidung bringen und automatisiert dann in die in die Umsetzung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Genau, da kommen wir nämlich auch gleich noch dazu. Möglicherweise müssen Gesetze auch ganz anders verfasst werden, ne. Das da machen wir am Ende noch mal 'n Schlenker zu, aber ich würde gern noch mal über diese Zwischenstufen sprechen. Also was Du jetzt gerade angesprochen hast, Peter, das wär ja eine Vollautomatisierung, ne? Also es Genau.\n\nUnd eure Publikationen, die der Anlass ist dafür, dass wir hier sprechen, die heißt von der Digitalisierung zur Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren. Also es heißt, es gibt 'n von bis Mhm. Digitalisierung bis Automatisierung. Was wären da Zwischenstufen davon oder was ist überhaupt das eine und was ist das andere sozusagen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Na, die Vollautomatisierung wäre das Beispiel, das wir gerade jetzt durchgesprochen haben. Also ich hab ein vollautomatisiertes Verwaltungsverfahren, das wenn alle Elemente vorliegen, ich automatisiert dann eine Zuwendung beispielsweise bekomm. Kann man sich, glaub ich, gut vorstellen. Teilautomatisiert wäre, dass man zumindest die Punkte, die unzweifelhaft sind, also die ich ihn wenn dann gut abbilden kann. Mhm.\n\nUnd wo ich vielleicht auch die die Datenpunkte, das hat Nicole Cole ja das angesprochen. Wir brauchen ja oft, da reden wir jetzt gar nicht von Big Data, sondern da kann man jetzt von Small Data sprechen. Wir brauchen ja die Datenpunkte zu den Personen. Also wie ist dein Name? Wie ist dein Zivilstand?\n\nHast Du Kinder, die dazu geteilt sind? Was ist dein Einkommen? Also all diese Datenpunkte sind teilweise digitalisiert, teilweise aber auch noch nicht digitalisiert, teilweise erreichbar, also abrufbar und teilweise auch nicht abrufbar. Und das macht's so schwierig heutzutage gerade in Deutschland, weil diese Datenpunkte so verstreut sind, die Verwaltungsverfahren Vollautomatisierung oder auch eine Teilautomatisierung vorzunehmen, weil man zuerst die Knochenarbeit machen muss, alle Datenbanken so aufzubauen, dass sie erreichbar sind, abrufbar sind und dass diese Datenbanken tatsächlich auch dieser Punkt der verwaltungsrechtlichen Wahrheit in Anspruch nehmen können, damit diese Datenpunkte dann automatisiert im Verwaltungsverfahren verarbeitet werden können. Mhm.\n\nUnd da gibt's halt Länder, die die da wesentlich weiter sind. Österreicher hat beispielsweise seit mehr als 25 Jahren werden dort Register aufgebaut und ähnlich ist es in den skandinavischen Ländern oder auch in den baltischen Staaten, die da auch immer wieder genannt werden. Die haben einfach alle Verwaltungsdatenpunkte gut miteinander verknüpft. Heißt nicht, dass sie für jedermann abrufbar sind Genau, weil es gibt natürlich\n\nSpeaker 0: den Datenschutz auch.\n\nSpeaker 1: Gesagt, genau. Das ist auch in in den unterschiedlichen Ländern also ist es unterschiedlich gelöst. In Estland hat man eine hohe Transparenz, da sehe ich genau, wann hat wer auf meine Daten zugegriffen, eine sehr charmante Lösung und aus welchem Grund wird quasi der Bürger und die Bürgerin wird zum eigenen Datenschützer über seine Daten, bei der weiß ja unter sie weiß ja am besten, ob's 'n Verwaltungsverfahren gegeben hat oder nicht. Und ja, und das sind das das das ist sicher eine der größten Herausforderungen, die Nicole auch angesprochen hat mit der Registermodernisierung in Deutschland, die jetzt erst begonnen hat und sicher für den ersten größeren Wurf mal 3 bis 5 Jahre dauern wird und im Vollausbau wahrscheinlich auch bis zu 7 bis 10 Jahre dauern kann.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay, aber das ist also die Grundlage, die wir brauchen und dann, was wär denn 'n Beispiel für eine Teilautomatisierung, die dann möglich wäre? Also wo der Mensch noch 'n Faktor ist, Mhm. Aber schon Arbeit gemacht wird im Vorfeld von, weiß ich nicht, KI Algorithmen, was auch immer.\n\nSpeaker 1: Na, das könnte tatsächlich jetzt so ein ein Punkt sein bei der beim beim Kindergeld. Das gewisse Punkte ist Sinn schon vorhanden. Das und dass man dann zu dem Punkt kommt, eine dass die Behörde aktiv nachfragt, soll das Kindergeld ausgezahlt werden an den Vater oder an die Mutter. Die das wäre dann bis dorthin wär's voll automatisiert. Ab dem Zeitpunkt gibt's da 'n Bürger*innenkontakt und basierend auf der Antwort kann dann das Verfahren weitergeführt werden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay. Hast Du vielleicht auch 'n Beispiel, Nicole? Also was ja auch denkbar wäre, also es gibt auch diesen Begriff Assistenz, ne, wo man sagt, wir suchen zum Beispiel in alten Urteilen und dann kriegt man, also so hab ichs verstanden, wie so eine Empfehlung mit, also 90 Prozent aller Leute, die mit diesem Fall befasst waren, haben so und so entschieden.\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, tatsächlich ein gutes Beispiel, was es dafür gibt, kommt dann wiederum aus Österreich, also. Nämlich dieser AMS Algorithmus, der Arbeitsuchende in verschiedene Kategorien einteilt, je nach der Wahrscheinlichkeit, wie erfolgreich sie in den Arbeitsmarkt integriert werden können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Der AMS steht für Arbeitsmarktchancenassistenzsystem, ne, das AMS Algorit.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und das ist dann auch als Unterstützung gedacht für die für die Mitarbeitenden. Also da wird jetzt nichts per se entschieden, aber damit sie einfach wissen, okay, das ist schon mal das System hat anscheinend hat dann halt verschiedener Datenpunkte, ist zu dem und dem Ergebnis gekommen. Das heißt, die Person braucht vielleicht mehr oder weniger Unterstützung oder Unterstützung in dieser oder jeder Hinsicht. Das wäre ein ein Beispiel, was mir dann noch einfallen würde.\n\nSpeaker 0: Der aber nicht unumstritten war, ne, dieser AMS Algorithmus, weil der ja auch drüber entschieden hat, kriege ich zum Beispiel eine Fortbildung bezahlt oder gibt mir der Algorithmus gar keine Chance, oder?\n\nSpeaker 1: Absolut, höchst umstritten und ist auch so letztendlich nicht in den Volleinsatz gekommen. Ist auch ein schönes Beispiel dafür, was wir alles unter KI packen. Mhm. Dieser Algorithmus, Du hast das ja richtig ausgesprochen, es war jetzt nicht KI, aber es ist oft unter KI Debatte gelaufen. Dahinter war ein relativ simpler Algorithmus, der statistisch berechnet hat, Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass diese Person durch eine Weiterbildung zukünftig eine Stelle bekommen wird, sodass die Mittel, die Idee durchaus ja interessant, dass die Mittel gut gesteuert sind.\n\nAlso ich hab ein gewisses Budget als Arbeitsmarktservice, das ich einsetzen kann, Personen weiterzuhelfen, damit sie sich wieder weiter qualifizieren können und somit die Jobchancen steigen am Arbeitsmarkt. An sich eine gute Idee, nur wenn man das dann im im Praktischen auf den Einzelfall herunterbricht, muss ich auch dazu sagen, das hat nichts automatisiert gemacht, das war ein reines Assistenzinformation zu finden.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also es hat gesagt, ich würde hier eine Fortbildung empfehlen, ich würde sie nicht empfehlen, hätte, genau.\n\nSpeaker 1: Es es hätte nur die Chancen dargestellt für den für den Berater, die Beraterin des Arbeitsmarktservice. Also das wär gar nicht sichtbar geworden direkt für die arbeitssuchende Person. Aber wir sehen schon, wer will von 'nem Algorithmen muss die Antwort bekommen, dass er unvermittelbar ist. Also da steckt einfach sozial auch viel Spannung drinnen und was auf den ersten Blick vielleicht gut gemeint war, kommt man dann im zweiten Schritt drauf, dass das vielleicht nicht ganz, dass das ethisch nicht vereinbar ist mit unserer, zumindest mit unseren Werten, die wir in unserer Gesellschaft pflegen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, weil's ja auch, also Du hast es gesagt, es ist nicht KI, aber man kennt ja diese Reproduktion von, also zum Beispiel Stereotyp. Frauen haben Ja. Schlechte Chancen aufm Arbeitsmarkt und dann wer hat, dem wird gegeben und wer nicht hat, der kriegt halt keine Fortbildung, ne? Also dass man so was dann\n\nSpeaker 1: Exakt.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja. Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Wunderbar, ja, wunderbar dargestellt, ja. Also dass diese stereotypische Abbildung von von von von von Mensch und Personen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay. 'N anderes Beispiel, was ich auch in der Publikation gefunden hab, was ich spannend fand, waren Heat Maps. Das ist was, was Ordnungskräfte, also Polizei unterstützen kann, zum Beispiel. Ich weiß nicht, wahrscheinlich könnt ihr's besser erklären, aber wo Einbruchschwerpunkte sind, ne? Das wär zum Beispiel auch 'n Nutzungsbeispiel.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, geht geht geht geht's geht's so ja noch weiter so, dass das Feld in den in den Bereich, der interessanterweise auch schon vor vor der generativen KI ein sehr, sehr, sehr hitzig debattiert wurde im Prädiktive Policing, also die Vorhersage, weiß ich glaub, Dominative Report gesehen hast, wo die Polizei quasi schon den den Einsatz geplant hat\n\nSpeaker 0: Bevor die Tat.\n\nSpeaker 1: Bevor das Verbrechen, bevor der Mord im schlimmsten Fall tatsächlich auch stattfindet. Das geht ein bisschen in diese Richtung, wo auf Basis von unterschiedlichen Datenpunkten eine Vorhersage getroffen wird, wo man vielleicht zukünftig stärker mit Polizei präsent ist, vielleicht potenzielle Verbrechen zu verhindern. Und das sind die Ergebnisse aber sehr gemischt. Funktioniert vielleicht in einem voll kontrollierten System, also wo ich wo ich die die Daten aus dem öffentlichen Raum vielleicht durchgehend auswerten kann, also bis hin zu indem ich vermesse, was es alles zu vermessen gibt, also von Körpertemperatur, der Art und Weise, wie sich Menschen bewegen, wie sie sprechen. All diese Datenpunkte, wenn ich die zusammenführe, vielleicht kann ich auf der Basis dann im öffentlichen Raum tatsächlich vieles vorhersagen, was potenziell passieren könnte, aber das ist sicher kein Raum, in dem wir zumindest in Europa leben wollen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Da gibt's durchaus Beispiele vor allem aus dem asiatischen Raum, die weit über das hinausgehen, was wir uns eigentlich vorstellen wollen. Das ist dann tatsächlich gelebte Dystopie, die sich aber vielleicht auch gut anfühlt, weil sie sich sicher anfühlt. Das ist dann fast schon 'n paradoxer Zustand.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mhm. Also gut, dann wir kommen hier so in ethische Fragen rein, waren aber ja auch gerade bei den bei den sehr praktischen Fragen. Nicole, willst Du da noch mal was dazu sagen zu diesen ethischen Fragen, weil man könnte ja auch sagen, ist blöd, dass Deutschland da jetzt so hinterherhängt, aber andererseits auch eine Chance, weil man ja sehen kann, oha, in Österreich hat dieser Algorithmus für Kritik gesorgt. Also würdest Du sagen, wir sind jetzt schon schlauer darüber, zum Beispiel unter welchen Umständen es Bürger*innen auch akzeptieren, wenns so voll- oder teilautomatisierte Sachen gibt im Verwaltungsrecht?\n\nSpeaker 2: Ja, das sind ja jetzt viele Fragen in einigen. Ja, das Also ich wollte auch nicht sagen, dass es per se gut ist, dass wir da hinterherhängen. Ich muss sagen, da hat sich auch viel getan, beispielsweise mit den Datenlaboren der Bundesministerien, die natürlich auch mit KI, mit großen Sprachmodellen, aber für die Verwaltung intern beispielsweise Informationen aufzufinden, zu gucken, wer muss wie beteiligt werden, für solche Verfahren da durchaus schon viel macht und das auch sehr erfolgreich. Aber das andere sind natürlich, wenn die Verwaltung mit Außenwirkung handelt, also im Verhältnis zu Bürgerinnen, Bürger oder Unternehmen, dass da natürlich dann vielleicht einfach noch mehr Sicherungsmechanismen eingebaut werden müssen, denn AMS Algorithmus haben wir schon gesagt, war sehr umstritten. Da gab's auch noch in der Vergangenheit ja andere in der Sozialverwaltung auch Skandale weltweit in anderen Ländern, wo Systeme eingesetzt wurden, wo dann die dann einfach fehlerhaft waren an der einen oder anderen Stelle oder wo dann tatsächlich ein Bias drin war, gewisse Gruppen ja tatsächlich systematisch diskriminiert wurden.\n\nDenn wir haben gesagt, das ist natürlich einerseits 'n Vorteil, wenn ich ein System habe, ja, dass dass ich dieses Verwaltungshandeln 'n bisschen vereinheitlichen kann, dass ich stärker sicherstellen kann, dass Ähnliches tatsächlich zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen führt. Aber das führt natürlich auch dazu, wenn ich da irgendwo 'n Fehler drin habe, dann hab ich den auch nicht nur in dieser einen Behörde oder nicht nur bei dem einen Sachbearbeitenden, sondern halt auch flächendeckend. Das heißt, da sind dann sehr viel mehr Personen gegebenenfalls auch negativ betroffen. Und da muss ich natürlich ganz genau hinschauen, weil es gibt ganz ganz verschiedene Wege, wie son Bias auch in son System hineinkommen kann und da muss ich eben über Risikomanagement, über eine kontinuierliche Qualitätssicherung und Evaluation, auch über eine Transparenz versuchen, das zu ja möglichst auszuschließen und in in dem Papier wird ja auch immer wieder dafür argumentiert, dass man vielleicht auch im Sinne der Akzeptanz sagen sollte, solche automatisierten Entscheidungen tatsächlich oder Empfehlungen auch nur in begünstigenden Quellen zuzulassen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wie zum Beispiel, Du kriegst Kindergeld?\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, also da wird wahrscheinlich keiner was dagegen haben, Ja. Wenn das Da hat man sowieso genug zu tun, wenn das wenn das nicht Wenn das was ist, womit man sich Worum man sich nicht auch noch kümmern muss, wenn das einfach automatisch passiert. Genau, wenn da jetzt aber plötzlich Kindergeld zurückgefordert wird oder mir irgend eine Leistung gestrichen wird oder sonstiges, dass das dann etwas wäre, was eben nicht automatisiert wird. Einfach genau diese diese gesellschaftliche Akzeptanz auch zu sichern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, ja das wären sehr praktisch im Einsatz.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau und was wir was wir dann, wenn man tatsächlich sagt, auch so Begünstigende wie Kindergeld, wenn man das automatisiert, ein Vorteil, den wir eben noch gar nicht angesprochen haben ist, weswegen auch die Datenschutzkommission sich ja dafür ausgesprochen hatte, weil es auch eine inklusive Wirkung hat. Also gerade im Sozialbereich, die die Anträge, die sind teilweise sehr, sehr umfangreich und je nach nach meiner Konstitution ist das vielleicht auch mehr als ich, also ist das überfordert mich das vielleicht auch einfach. Also da haben auch ja Sozialverbände teilweise sehr viel mit zu tun, zu unterstützen, einfach diese Anträge auszufüllen und dass man da sagt, wenn ich da so weit automatisieren würde, wie es möglich ist, wie ich eben Daten habe et cetera, man bekommen vielleicht auch mehr Personen diese Leistungen, auf die ihnen eigentlich Stand der Sachlage auch zustehen würde und ich eben den Aufwand für sie reduzieren hätte, also eine inklusive Wirkung.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, das noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, das ist gut, dass Du das noch mal gesagt hast, das war da, wo wir ja drüber gesprochen haben, was haben eigentlich die Bürger*innen davon? Das würde dann wirklich zu mehr Gerechtigkeit führen, weil dann Leute eben möglicherweise gar keinen Antrag stellen müssen in 'ner fremden Sprache in 'nem komplizierten Verwaltungsdeutsch, sondern die kriegen einfach das Geld, was ihnen zusteht. Das ist natürlich wär natürlich toll, ja. Peter, Du wolltest auch noch was sagen zu dem Thema.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja, vielleicht nur ergänzend, das das führt also nicht nur Gerechtigkeit, sondern auch, dass die Politik ja in aller Regel der Ausgangspunkt ist für eine Sozialmaßnahme, dass diese Politik tatsächlich auch ihre Wirkung erzeugt. Also Politik, die keine Wirkung erzeugt, ist ja muss sollte ja zumindest dann fortlaufend noch angepasst werden. Und es gibt tatsächlich Verfahren im Sozialbereich, wo nur ein Drittel der potenziellen Personen, die dazu antragsberechtigt, also antragsberechtigt prinzipiell jeder, aber die auch eine Chance haben, tatsächlich diese diese Förderung zu bekommen, diese Unterstützungsleistung zu bekommen, nur ein Drittel das in Anspruch nimmt. Also damit sieht man eigentlich, kann man fast sagen, die Politik ist gescheitert, wenn 2 Drittel gar nicht in der Lage sind, offensichtlich diese Sozialleistungen in Anspruch zu nehmen.\n\nSpeaker 0: Also spielen auch andere Sachen rein wie Scham oder solche Sachen Scham,\n\nSpeaker 2: sehr schön.\n\nSpeaker 0: Wahr halt auch die Hürden, ne.\n\nSpeaker 1: Selbst absolut. Sind nicht sind auch andere, aber auch das wäre natürlich reduziert. Auch an an dieser Hürde, wenn ich unter Umständen dann nur noch sagen muss, ja, nein. Mhm. So das kann man ja kann man ja sehr wohl auch noch offen lassen, dass man so weit geht die Vollautomatisierung und dann die letzte Frage stellt, willst Du die Zuwendung haben oder nicht?\n\nJa. Also das zeigt schon sehr deutlich, dass da hohe Mehrwerte damit verbunden sein können. Mir sind noch 2 Punkte aufgefallen und zwar der Bias in den Daten, weil da immer wieder so stark diskutiert wird. Das Bittere am Bias in den Daten ist, dass es leider Gottes in aller Regel die Wirklichkeit widerspiegelt. Mhm.\n\nAlso die Ungerechtigkeit, die wir bereits in unseren Gesellschaften haben, spiegeln sich in den Daten wider. Wir sagen dann immer so salopp, der Bias in den Daten und und haben damit und damit sind wir schon fertig, weil die Daten sind schuld. Na ja, viel viel stärker ist es tatsächlich durch die Daten hab ich eine extrem hohe Transparenz und sehe die Ungerechtigkeiten, die ich in Gesellschaften hab. Also das vielleicht zu dir zu der zu der Bias Diskussion ein Punkt und der andere, weil ein bisschen so war versus hat Deutschland 'n Vorteil oder 'n Nachteil. Das kommt jetzt drauf an.\n\nIn den Bereichen der tatsächlich Automatisierung, wo ich die exakten Datenpunkte brauch aus den Datenbanken, aus den Registern, die wir zuerst beschrieben haben, damit ich so eine Automatisierung machen kann. Wie ist dein Name? Wo bist Du geboren? Wie ist dein Kind? Wie ist dein wie ist dein Einkommen?\n\nDa brauch ich die exakten Daten. Da hat Deutschland tatsächlich einen großen Nachteil aktuell. Und der das wird auch nicht so leicht und so schnell aufzuholen sein, weil's hier eben, da muss ich an die an an die Register, an die Datenbanken heran. In den Bereichen von Assistenzsystemen kann das ganz anders sein. Also da liegt's viel mehr an der Innovationskraft.\n\nWelche Daten hab vorhanden, wie Nicole das kurz angesprochen hat. Da kann ich Beratungsassistenten bauen mit Daten, die vorhanden sind innerhalb 1 Behörde, die dann die Arbeit, die tagtägliche Arbeit unterstützen von Beamten und Beamtinnen. Und in dem Bereich, wenn wir da schauen, da liegt jetzt Deutschland nicht hinter Österreich.\n\nSpeaker 2: Okay.\n\nSpeaker 1: Da würd ich sogar sagen, da ist also auf gleichauf, wenn ich wenn ich da wenn nicht sogar vorne, weil wir mehr Innovationen in den Bereichen in Deutschland sehen als in Österreich. Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, wo man hinschaut. Also ist es jetzt die Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren, dann großer Nachteil, ist es die Innovationskraft, die man jetzt mit generativen KI Systemen, also textbasierten Systemen bauen kann, dann dann hat Deutschland jetzt nicht den Riesen Nachteil, also könnt man jetzt wieder in Details gehen, aber da und da sehen wir auch immer wieder auch viel Innovation.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ich würde jetzt gerne noch einen Punkt, den wir so kurz angesprochen haben, der aber glaube ich auch wichtig ist bei dem wie macht man's richtig, die Gesetzesformulierungen. Also wann ist ein Gesetz automatisierungstauglich? Da wird ja zum Beispiel in Dänemark immer schon geprüft, bevor 'n Gesetz erlassen wird. Ja. Das machen wir ja in Deutschland nicht.\n\nKönnt ihr dazu noch mal was sagen?\n\nSpeaker 1: Die Dänen haben das tatsächlich in der in der vollen Bandbreite. Also diskutiert wird's an vielen Stellen. Es gibt auch in es gibt auch gab in Österreich und vor allem jetzt in Deutschland ein ein Projekt dazu und das das Recht in der Entstehung schon digitalisierungsfreundlich auszugestalten. Der Digitalcheck war das.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm. Ich\n\nSpeaker 1: geh auch davon aus, dass der in der nächsten Bundesregierung ganz sicher auch wieder ein Thema sein wird. Das ist ein sehr gut aufgesetztes Projekt, das sich genau dieser Frage eben stellt, wie können Verwaltungs, vor allem Verwaltungsgesetze, Verwaltungsrecht so von Beginn an gedacht werden, dass es möglichst gut digitalisierbar ist? Und deine Frage, was muss ich beachten, klingt jetzt fast banal, wenn ich drauf sag, die Sprache sollte einfach sein.\n\nSpeaker 0: Mehr Kochrezept.\n\nSpeaker 1: Einfach, ja, ein und und und einfacher Sprache, also hat auch dann einen positiven Nebeneffekt. Das ist dann vielleicht auch für durchschnittlichen Bürger, Bürgerinnen einfacher verständlich oder Geschäfts Geschäftsfrau. Das ist zum Beispiel 1 der ersten Prinzipien, das die Dänen anwenden. Wie Du's richtig angesprochen hast, die Dänen haben das haben diese Prinzipien sogar im Parlament beschlossen, parteiübergreifend. Es war ein einstimmiger Beschluss des Parlaments, dass die Gesetze in Dänemark geprüft werden, bevor sie vom Parlament beschlossen werden auf ihre Digitalisierungsfreundlichkeit und das ist einfache Sprache.\n\nDas ist die Automatisierung soll immer auch mitgedacht werden. Es soll von Beginn an digital gedacht werden und natürlich auch die elektronische Kommunikation von Anfang an mitgedacht werden und berücksichtigt werden. Das sind so die stärksten Prinzipien. Es gibt da noch weitere, aber das sind, glaube ich, die die großen 4, auf die jeder schaut, sobald ein neues Gesetz geschrieben wird oder auch ein altes Gesetz novelliert wird. Das kann dann vielleicht bedeuten, dass es nicht mehr 15, 20 unterschiedliche Begriffe für Einkommen und Vermögen gibt, sondern dass es vielleicht nur noch 3 gibt mit 3 Berechnungsformeln.\n\nUnd das kann dann schon wesentlich erleichtern, wie Gesetze tatsächlich dann auch digitalisiert werden können.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, genau. Das fand ich noch mal 'n schönen Punkt, weil man's da wirklich von Anfang an so viel richtig machen kann und sich's dann so viel einfacher macht auf dem Weg dahin, ja.\n\nSpeaker 1: Genau. Und entstehen nur die Gesetze aller Regel in den Ministerien. Mhm. Die Erstentwürfe, die dann in den politischen Diskurs gehen und daher muss man das wirklich von Sekunde 0, wenn ich das so sagen darf, eigentlich schon mitdenken. Sei's die Juristen, Juristinnen, die Legisten, Legistinnen, die die wirklich das erste Mal auf dem weißen Blatt Papier beginnen zu schreiben, denen muss das schon bewusst sein von Sekunde 0.\n\nJa. Was muss ich denn alles bedenken, digital tauglich gute Gesetze schreiben zu können? Zieht sich dann natürlich schon auch in den in den parlamentarischen Diskurs, weil auch hier das Bewusstsein da sein muss. Da 1 der Gründe, warum die Gesetze so komplex sind in Deutschland, also wirklich noch mal komplexer als in Österreich und da Österreich legt die Latte schon relativ hoch, aber Deutschland springt da mit 1 Leichtigkeit noch mal weit darüber. Ist der politische Diskurs ist noch mal intensiver, auch mit den Ländern.\n\nSpeaker 2: Mhm.\n\nSpeaker 1: Und jeder politischer Kompromiss spiegelt sich dann oft auch im Gesetzestext wider, wird unbestimmter oder es gibt die nächste die es gibt weitere Ausnahmen, die dann die die die Durchführung der Gesetze und auch die Digitalisierung der Gesetze so unglaublich erschweren. Also wir sehen, wie all diese Elemente, auf die man vielleicht zuerst gar nicht hinschaut, einen einen eine Wirkung haben können auf digitalisierungsfreundliche Gesetze. Mhm. Also vom Legisten der Legistin bis hin zum politischen Diskurs im im im im Bundestag.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ja, okay.\n\nSpeaker 2: Genau, das ist ja beim Digitalcheck, der auf Bundesebene eingeführt worden ist, sind die Prinzipien gehen in eine ganz ähnliche Richtung. Auch Automatisierung soll mitgedacht werden, elektronische Kommunikation, sind Daten schon vorhanden und können vielleicht wiederverwendet werden. Da hat der Digitalservice 5 Prinzipien auch entwickelt, wahrscheinlich auch in Anlehnung an Dänemark, genau weiß ich's aber nicht. Ah ja, hab ich mir schon fast gedacht, dass die sich wahrscheinlich auch international nach Best Practice Beispielen umgeschaut haben und was da auch immer forciert wird und was auch dazu beiträgt, ja das da haben wir ja schon drüber gesprochen, diese Denkweise ist so unterschiedlich zwischen der Digitalisierung und der juristischen Sprache und das son bisschen zu überbrücken, werden Visualisierungen da ganz groß gemacht. Also, dass ich tatsächlich dieses komplette Verfahren, wie es abläuft, einmal visualisiere als Flussdiagramm oder sonstiges, weil dann kann ich Abhängigkeiten viel klarer sehen.\n\nDas geht dann wieder in Richtung Wenn Dann Regelung gegebenenfalls. Dann fällt mir auch auf, wenn da vielleicht irgendwo Medienbrüche drin sind, wenn Prozesse vielleicht ineffizient sind, wenn ich an verschiedenen Stellen dieselben Daten wieder abfrage und wenn ich das einmal in der Form visualisiert habe, dann ist das eine gute Grundlage, das hinterher vielleicht auch digital umsetzen zu können Und es führt auch zu 'ner erhöhten Transparenz. Wie läuft das Verfahren ab und erleichtert auch die Kommunikation und wie gesagt, diesen Brückenschlag son bisschen zwischen diesen doch sehr in ihren Logiken sehr unterschiedlichen Disziplinen.\n\nSpeaker 1: Ja. Ja, zu den Ausführungen von Nicole und wenn das wenn das alles dann so in in dieser Schönheit umgesetzt ist, wie Nicole das jetzt grad beschrieben hat und der nächsten Bundesregierung, digitalisierungstaugliche Gesetze so entstehen, dann kommen wir vielleicht ein bisschen weg vom Gedicht und der Poesie hin doch zu einem stärker einem Backrezept in Form der zukünftigen des zukünftigen Verwaltungsrechts.\n\nSpeaker 0: Und die muss es auch geben, kann auch viel Schönes sein, son gelungener Kuchen. Danke euch beiden.\n\nSpeaker 1: Danke sehr. Gern.\n\nSpeaker 0: Das war, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT. Ich danke meinen Gästen Professor Peter Pariczek und Nicole Opieller, Leiter und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin. Die passende Publikation zum Thema findet ihr online unter ö fit Punkt d e mit o e geschrieben und das Link in den Shownotes. Ihr könnt diesen Podcast gerne abonnieren, kostenfrei auf Apple Podcasts, Spotify und vielen weiteren Portalen. Dann bekommt ihr immer Bescheid, wenn eine neue Folge erscheint, also ganz automatisch.\n\nMein Name ist Franziska Walser, ich freu mich auf das nächste Mal. Tschüs und danke fürs Zuhören.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "In einem sind sich Bürger*innen und Verwaltungsmitarbeiterde wahrscheinlich einig, Anträge sollen so schnell und effizient wie möglich bearbeitet werden.", "start": 1.04, "end": 8.5 }, { "text": "Wer will schon zum Beispiel auf die Bewilligung des Elterngeldes warten, wenn die nächste Miete ansteht und das Leben mit einem Säugling sowieso schon alles auf den Kopf stellt.", "start": 8.88, "end": 17.885 }, { "text": "Die gute Nachricht ist, Hilfe ist in Sicht, in Form von Voll- oder Teilautomatisierung in der Verwaltung.", "start": 18.505001, "end": 24.605 }, { "text": "In Österreich zum Beispiel wird die Familienbeihilfe, die ist so ähnlich wie unser Elterngeld, automatisch und ganz ohne Antrag überwiesen.", "start": 25.385, "end": 32.64 }, { "text": "Das freut nicht nur die Bürger*innen, sondern auch die Verwaltungsangestellten.", "start": 33.42, "end": 36.559998 } ], "start": 1.04, "end": 36.559998, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die haben nämlich dann mehr Zeit für die komplizierten Fälle, wenn die Standardanfragen automatisch bearbeitet werden.", "start": 37.5, "end": 43.845 }, { "text": "Wir sprechen heute im öfid Podcast digital darüber, wie Verwaltungsrechtsverfahren digitalisiert oder sogar automatisiert werden können und natürlich auch über mögliche Hürden auf dem Weg dahin.", "start": 44.885002, "end": 56.745003 }, { "text": "Mein Name ist Franziska Walser und meine beiden Co Hosts sind im Studio hier in Tegel Professor Peter Pariczek.", "start": 66.18, "end": 72.635 }, { "text": "Er ist Leiter des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin.", "start": 73.335, "end": 78.235 }, { "text": "Außerdem ist er Professor an der Uni Krems und Mitglied im Direktorium des rbb.", "start": 78.455, "end": 83.195 } ], "start": 37.5, "end": 83.195, "num_words": 88.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hallo Peter.", "start": 83.255005, "end": 83.995 } ], "start": 83.255005, "end": 83.995, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hallo Franziska.", "start": 84.299995, "end": 85.04 } ], "start": 84.299995, "end": 85.04, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und zugeschaltet ist uns Nicole Opiella, Politologin und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT.", "start": 85.979996, "end": 92.06 }, { "text": "Hallo Nicole.", "start": 92.06, "end": 92.88 } ], "start": 85.979996, "end": 92.88, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hallo Franziska.", "start": 93.259995, "end": 93.92 } ], "start": 93.259995, "end": 93.92, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ich hab mir gedacht, als ich mich eingearbeitet hab in das Thema, ist ja eigentlich 'n totales Match.", "start": 94.939995, "end": 99.1 }, { "text": "Also juristische Vorgänge müssten sich eigentlich super leicht automatisieren lassen, weil Gesetze ja im Grunde Entscheidungsregeln sind.", "start": 99.1, "end": 104.915 }, { "text": "Also wenn ich mit 100 KMH durch eine Ortschaft brettere und ich werd erwischt, dann verliere ich meinen Führerschein zum Beispiel, ne.", "start": 104.915, "end": 110.515 }, { "text": "Und 'n Algorithmus ist ja auch ein Rechenvorgang nach einem bestimmten Schema, was Regelhaftes.", "start": 110.515, "end": 115.9 }, { "text": "Das heißt, eigentlich passt es doch super zusammen.", "start": 116.76, "end": 119.4 } ], "start": 94.939995, "end": 119.4, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wo ist das Problem?", "start": 119.4, "end": 120.46 } ], "start": 119.4, "end": 120.46, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, auf", "start": 121.880005, "end": 122.28 } ], "start": 121.880005, "end": 122.28, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "den ersten Blick passt es perfekt zusammen, nicht?", "start": 122.28, "end": 124.200005 }, { "text": "Und das haben sich viele auch schon in der Vergangenheit gedacht und sich dann immer wieder daran gemacht, dass man Gesetze automatisiert, mechanisiert.", "start": 124.200005, "end": 132.685 }, { "text": "Da gibt's eine lange Geschichte und die geht eigentlich zurück bis ins ja bis ins römische Recht oder auch ins preußische Landrecht, wo man sich gedacht hat, man kann doch das Recht so genau abbilden und dass alle alle Möglichkeiten des täglichen Lebens dann in 1 mechanischen, wenn das passiert, dann kommt Folgendes zum Tragen.", "start": 133.065, "end": 152.82999 }, { "text": "Und das Faszinierende ist, alle Projekte sind bisher gescheitert.", "start": 153.45, "end": 157.67499 } ], "start": 122.28, "end": 157.67499, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 157.735, "end": 157.97499 }, { "text": "Also richtig son ganz weit zurückreichender Menschheitstraum eigentlich, das", "start": 157.97499, "end": 161.89499 } ], "start": 157.735, "end": 161.89499, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, Menschheitstraum ist jetzt vielleicht die Frage, wer ist Mensch", "start": 162.215, "end": 164.61499 } ], "start": 162.215, "end": 164.61499, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oder ein Herrschertraum.", "start": 164.69499, "end": 165.515 } ], "start": 164.69499, "end": 165.515, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ein Herrschertraum, ja, ein Herrscherinnentraum im Sinne von die apolloistischen Herrscher, Herrscherinnen haben ihren eigenen Beamtinnen und Richter und Richterinnen eigentlich nicht vertraut.", "start": 165.89499, "end": 176.58 }, { "text": "Das das steckt ein bisschen dahinter und wollten daher sichergehen, dass ihre Interpretation der Wahrheit und der Gerechtigkeit und der Ausführung der Gesetze so eng beschrieben ist, dass gewährleistet ist, dass ihr Wille tatsächlich auch umgesetzt wird und nicht 1 weiteren Interpretation obliegt durch Beamte, Beamtinnen oder Richter und Richterinnen.", "start": 176.58, "end": 199.88 } ], "start": 165.89499, "end": 199.88, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, also dieses, was wir erkennen, so Auslegung, Ermessensspielraum, solche Sachen wollte man da ausschalten, ne?", "start": 199.94, "end": 205.3 } ], "start": 199.94, "end": 205.3, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Exakt.", "start": 205.3, "end": 205.8 } ], "start": 205.3, "end": 205.8, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und warum klappt's nicht?", "start": 205.86, "end": 207.16 } ], "start": 205.86, "end": 207.16, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Weil das Leben so bunt ist, weil das die die die Rechtskonflikte ja immer wieder 'n neues Chaos hervorbringen.", "start": 208.265, "end": 215.885 }, { "text": "Also der der Mensch und seine Auseinandersetzung mit der Wirklichkeit ist so vielfältig und führt eigentlich an den Stellen ganz klar ins ins in das Chaos der der Streitigkeiten könnte man das fast bezeichnen, währenddessen die die einfachen Abbildungen mit wenn dann dazu einfach nicht ausreicht.", "start": 216.105, "end": 235.5 } ], "start": 208.265, "end": 235.5, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Aber jetzt haben wir ja, also zum Beispiel KI, also es gibt ja neue technische Möglichkeiten.", "start": 236.16501, "end": 240.66501 }, { "text": "Also, würdest Du oder auch Du Nicole, würde dir sagen, es ist jetzt, es ist wirklich mal greifbar, sind wir kurz davor, dass wir es jetzt wirklich mal schaffen?", "start": 240.725, "end": 249.065 } ], "start": 236.16501, "end": 249.065, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wir haben jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Voraussetzungen.", "start": 250.75, "end": 253.01 }, { "text": "Also, wenn man sich das in der Vergangenheit anguckt, diesen Versuch, Recht tatsächlich, mechanisiert abzubilden.", "start": 253.54999, "end": 261.49 }, { "text": "Die Regeln, die Gesetze, die müssen ja immer recht allgemein sein, aber in der Anwendung müssen sie dann ja auf den konkreten Einzelfall angewendet werden.", "start": 262.145, "end": 269.445 }, { "text": "Und das Leben ist da einfach so vielfältig und deswegen ist das Recht an an vielen Stellen ja, allgemein unspezifisch, bietet dadurch aber auch Möglichkeiten, es unterschiedlich zu interpretieren und auch weiterzuentwickeln.", "start": 269.585, "end": 281.62 }, { "text": "Das ist ja auch erforderlich, weil unsere Gesellschaft entwickelt sich auch weiter.", "start": 282.56, "end": 285.94 } ], "start": 250.75, "end": 285.94, "num_words": 92.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ansonsten werden die Regelungen, wenn ich sie erlasse, ja schon fast wieder veraltet.", "start": 286.16, "end": 289.13684 }, { "text": "Ich müsste sie ständig updaten.", "start": 289.13684, "end": 289.17896 }, { "text": "Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit, updaten.", "start": 289.17896, "end": 291.125 }, { "text": "Da kann man gar nicht Schritt halten und so habe ich eben die Möglichkeit über Rechtsvorbildung, über Weiterentwicklung, einfach wie sich das Leben entwickelt dem auch und wie sich unsere Gesellschaft auch entwickelt, wie sich gewisse Werte entwickeln, das auch mit geltendem Recht trotzdem abbilden zu können.", "start": 291.185, "end": 308.12 }, { "text": "Na ja, und bei dieser Formulierung des Rechts, da ist man eben an diesen unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffen vielfach gescheitert.", "start": 308.12, "end": 314.76 } ], "start": 286.16, "end": 314.76, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Man ist aber auch vielfach daran gescheitert, ja, dass ich einfach dass ich einfach gar nicht genug Zugang hatte zu Daten, zu Informationen, zu Gerichtsurteilen und so weiter.", "start": 314.76, "end": 328.455 }, { "text": "Da hat sich in letzter Zeit natürlich sehr viel getan.", "start": 328.595, "end": 331.155 }, { "text": "Die Rechenleistung ist auch enorm gestiegen.", "start": 331.155, "end": 332.995 }, { "text": "Das war auch was, woran so die ersten Versuche der Formalisierung in den Siebzigerjahren irgendwann an Grenzen gestoßen sind und dadurch hab ich jetzt mehr Möglichkeiten, dass ich mehr Daten habe, die auch in elektronischer Form vorliegen, dass Akten zunehmend auch elektronisch geführt werden und so weiter und da hab ich natürlich was, was ich auch brauche, wenn ich tatsächlich sage, dass ich jetzt KI einsetze, wobei es gibt natürlich verschiedene Arten von KI, aber das, was wir aktuell natürlich vor allem unter KI diskutieren, das sind natürlich Systeme, die einfach auch eine sehr große Datenbasis benötigen.", "start": 332.995, "end": 370.47 }, { "text": "Und da hab ich jetzt auf jeden Fall bessere Möglichkeiten als in der Vergangenheit.", "start": 371.49, "end": 375.35 } ], "start": 314.76, "end": 375.35, "num_words": 155.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ob die Datenmengen allerdings ausreicht, auch jetzt an diesem Punkt, das ist immer noch fraglich, weil KI braucht wirklich Unmengen an Daten, selbstständig Regeln ableiten zu können.", "start": 376.405, "end": 386.005 } ], "start": 376.405, "end": 386.005, "num_words": 27.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay, genau.", "start": 386.005, "end": 386.565 }, { "text": "Also das mit mit dem Datenverfügbarkeit, das hab ich verstanden.", "start": 386.565, "end": 390.005 }, { "text": "Kannst könnt ihr noch mal erklären diese unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffe?", "start": 390.005, "end": 392.61 }, { "text": "Das ist nämlich spannend und ich glaub, wenn man einsteigt in das Thema, versteht man nicht sofort, was gemeint ist.", "start": 392.75, "end": 397.62997 }, { "text": "Also zum Beispiel Wohnsitz oder Einkommen, das sind ja Wörter, die sind uneindeutig auf eine Art, ne?", "start": 397.62997, "end": 404.265 } ], "start": 386.005, "end": 404.265, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die stehen in Es gibt ja viele Gesetze mehrfach drin und meinen was anderes.", "start": 404.265, "end": 408.665 }, { "text": "Das ist das Problem, oder?", "start": 408.665, "end": 409.965 } ], "start": 404.265, "end": 409.965, "num_words": 19.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Du hast jetzt sogar etwas ausgewählt, was wo man auf den ersten Blick als als Laie denken könnte, na ja, dieser Begriff, der lässt sich ja eindeutig beschreiben.", "start": 410.345, "end": 419.21002 } ], "start": 410.345, "end": 419.21002, "num_words": 28.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Weil Wohnsitz ist da, wo ich meine Post hinschicke.", "start": 419.21002, "end": 421.47 } ], "start": 419.21002, "end": 421.47, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Exakt, ja.", "start": 421.53, "end": 422.01 }, { "text": "Ja.", "start": 422.01, "end": 422.09003 }, { "text": "Oder der Jugendliche oder das das Einkommen oder der Vermögensbegriff, da könnte man auf den ersten Blick glauben, das müsste doch überall gleich definiert sein in den Gesetzen.", "start": 422.09003, "end": 433.485 }, { "text": "Und selbst bei diesen Begriffen findet sich eine unglaubliche Vielfalt in den unterschiedlichen Gesetzen, die je nachdem, vielleicht ausm politischen Kompromiss heraus, vielleicht aufgrund der Sachlage in diesen Bereichen es tatsächlich zu unterschiedlichen Begriffen kommt.", "start": 433.705, "end": 447.88 }, { "text": "Also beim Einkommensbegriff sind es weit über 10 unterschiedliche Formen, die man in einem Gutachten des Normenkontrollrats festgestellt hat.", "start": 447.88, "end": 455.58 } ], "start": 421.53, "end": 455.58, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nur dieses Beispiel zu bringen und dann gibt's ja noch tatsächlich die unbestimmten Begriffe, die noch eine viel größere Möglichkeit der Auslegung der Auslegung ermöglichen.", "start": 455.72, "end": 465.015 } ], "start": 455.72, "end": 465.015, "num_words": 25.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "So was wie baldmöglichst oder so was oder", "start": 465.555, "end": 467.555 } ], "start": 465.555, "end": 467.555, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die erworben.", "start": 467.795, "end": 468.035 }, { "text": "Wurden Wunderbare Beispiele, die ihr beide jetzt grade gebracht habt.", "start": 468.115, "end": 472.35 }, { "text": "Und die sind das sind halt diese Gesetzesbegriffe, die dazu dienen, so wie Nicole das schon angesprochen hat, dass das Recht sich fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickeln kann.", "start": 473.15, "end": 483.81 }, { "text": "Das mag jetzt für Außenstehende noch befremdlicher wirken.", "start": 484.03, "end": 486.93 }, { "text": "Wenn man an ein Gesetz denkt, dann verbindet man sich ja nicht Dynamik damit oder dass es sich das fortlaufend verändert.", "start": 487.235, "end": 493.335 } ], "start": 467.795, "end": 493.335, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das ist aber im Hintergrund tatsächlich so.", "start": 494.115, "end": 495.955 }, { "text": "Also Okay.", "start": 495.955, "end": 496.35498 }, { "text": "Recht ist nicht statisch, auch wenn Gesetze statisch wirken.", "start": 496.51498, "end": 500.535 }, { "text": "Es wird fortlaufend dynamisch weiterentwickelt durch die Rechtsprechung beispielsweise oder auch durch fortlaufende Novellierungen und neuen Fällen.", "start": 500.89, "end": 509.13 }, { "text": "Also das das ist das, was man von außen oft nicht sieht, wie viel Dynamik eigentlich in so den Faden, wenn ich das so sagen darf, es in den Fadenrechtstext eigentlich drinnen steckt.", "start": 509.13, "end": 517.71497 } ], "start": 494.115, "end": 517.71497, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja und das heißt, das ist vielleicht auch gar keine Schludrigkeit, sondern es ist vielleicht Absicht, weil baldmöglichst kann in Zeiten von Postkutschen was anderes heißen als von E-Mail.", "start": 517.71497, "end": 525.01495 }, { "text": "Exakt.", "start": 525.07495, "end": 525.475 }, { "text": "Also das das ist so gewollt.", "start": 525.475, "end": 527.01 }, { "text": "Quasi.", "start": 527.01, "end": 527.17 } ], "start": 517.71497, "end": 527.17, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Es ist also, wenn man also jetzt in der IT Sprache sagt, es ist nicht 'n Pack, ja.", "start": 527.17, "end": 530.77 }, { "text": "Es ist 'n ganz eindeutigen Feature, dass von Beginn an in der in der in der in der Rechtslehre und und in der Rechtspraxis so bewusst eingesetzt wird.", "start": 530.77, "end": 541.875 } ], "start": 527.17, "end": 541.875, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 541.935, "end": 542.095 }, { "text": "Okay und aber das macht jetzt eben diese Digitalisierung schwer, weil", "start": 542.095, "end": 545.775 } ], "start": 541.935, "end": 545.775, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das hat's immer schwer gemacht in der Mechanisierung von Beginn an und weiterhin auch in der Digitalisierung, weil wir noch immer unterschiedliche Logiken in diesen Systemen haben.", "start": 546.015, "end": 556.75 }, { "text": "Nicht also wir haben einmal die die die doch sehr starre Computerlogik mit 0 1, ja nein, wenn dann.", "start": 556.75, "end": 564.37 }, { "text": "Und dem gegenüber steht die die Rechtslogik, die einen Vielzahl von Interpretationen, Schattierungen zulässt.", "start": 564.825, "end": 572.525 }, { "text": "Also ein ganz anderes logisches Prinzip, das das sich in den Rechtstexten und in der Rechtsanwendung dann wiederfindet.", "start": 573.145, "end": 579.645 }, { "text": "Wenn man das vielleicht mit dem Vergleich hinterlegt, dass der Rechtstext ist wie ein Gedicht.", "start": 579.93, "end": 584.19 } ], "start": 546.015, "end": 584.19, "num_words": 93.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 584.41, "end": 584.81 }, { "text": "Die Poesie, die man fortlaufend auch immer wieder unterschiedlich interpretieren kann.", "start": 584.81, "end": 588.32996 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 588.32996, "end": 588.49 }, { "text": "Also gute Gedichte haben ja eine eine Vielzahl von Interpretationsmöglichkeiten.", "start": 588.49, "end": 592.19 }, { "text": "Währenddessen die Computerlogik wäre eher im Sinne von einem Kochrezept Ja.", "start": 593.475, "end": 598.035 } ], "start": 584.41, "end": 598.035, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Oder sagen wir's noch drastischer, Backrezept.", "start": 598.115, "end": 599.875 }, { "text": "Weil wenn man sich beim Backrezept nicht an exakt an die Mengen hält, dann wird der Kuchen in aller Regel nichts.", "start": 599.875, "end": 605.255 }, { "text": "Und so ist es in der Computerlogik.", "start": 605.60004, "end": 606.98004 }, { "text": "Also Poesie versus Bug Rezept, ums vielleicht mit einem plastischen Beispiel zu bringen.", "start": 607.44, "end": 612.96 } ], "start": 598.115, "end": 612.96, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja.", "start": 612.96, "end": 613.28 }, { "text": "Es gibt ja verschiedene juristische Bereiche.", "start": 613.28, "end": 615.44 }, { "text": "Also wenn wir jetzt hier übers Verwaltungsrecht sprechen, ist das vielleicht noch zugänglicher für solche Vorgänge als jetzt, sagen wir mal, zum Beispiel das Familienrecht oder andere Rechte?", "start": 615.44, "end": 626.685 } ], "start": 612.96, "end": 626.685, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolut, also das war 1 der Gründe, warum wir das Rechtsgutachten sehr stark auf das öffentliche Recht fokussiert haben, auf das Verwaltungsrecht, weil hier noch viel genauer exakter beschrieben wird, wie die Verwaltung tatsächlich auch die Verfahren durchführen muss, ist sehr streng und eng an das Gesetz gebunden, an den Gesetzeswortlaut gebunden.", "start": 627.305, "end": 649.03 }, { "text": "Das Gegenstück dazu wär das Zivilrecht.", "start": 650.02496, "end": 651.805 }, { "text": "Das Zivilrecht ist dann überhaupt die ganz große Innovationsspielwiese, wo Anwälte und Anwältinnen wechselseitig über Verträge bestmögliche Interpretationen für ihre Klienten und Klientinnen versuchen zu zu etablieren.", "start": 652.02496, "end": 666.93 }, { "text": "Das heißt, hier hab ich eine viel größere Dynamik noch als im im Verwaltungsrecht und hier ist eine Automatisierung des Rechts bis auf ein paar Standardfälle wie ein einfacher Kaufvertrag, ein einfacher Mietvertrag ist hier so gut wie nicht anwendbar.", "start": 666.99, "end": 682.89496 }, { "text": "Hier wird's immer die die Innovationskraft der Juristen, Juristinnen brauchen.", "start": 683.595, "end": 688.31494 } ], "start": 627.305, "end": 688.31494, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Deren Arbeit kann man dann, kommen wir vielleicht später noch drauf, kann man sehr stark unterstützen mit den Werkzeugen.", "start": 688.31494, "end": 692.57495 }, { "text": "Aber hier ist die Vielfalt noch mal größer als im Vergleich dazu im Bereich des Verwaltungsrechts.", "start": 692.98, "end": 699.56 } ], "start": 688.31494, "end": 699.56, "num_words": 35.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, genau, da kommen wir gleich dazu, weil es gibt ja auch so was wie eine Teilautomatisierung.", "start": 699.86, "end": 702.60004 }, { "text": "Es gibt ja Zwischenstufen und Und Nicole, weil Du gerade diese Datengrundlage angesprochen hast, vielleicht ist auch die Datengrundlage besser, oder?", "start": 702.9, "end": 710.365 }, { "text": "In der Verwaltung, weil man da ja Zugriff drauf hat wahrscheinlich auf die ganzen Urteile und Formulare.", "start": 710.365, "end": 716.305 } ], "start": 699.86, "end": 716.305, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja und nein genau.", "start": 716.845, "end": 717.725 }, { "text": "Also es gibt natürlich für Verwaltungsverfahren, für diese Formalisierung, über die wir schon gesprochen haben, gibt es Hilfswerkzeuge wie Formulare, die ich dann ja ausfüllen muss, beispielsweise wenn ich irgendetwas beantrage.", "start": 717.725, "end": 729.96 }, { "text": "Wenn wir aber darüber sprechen, Daten, die vielleicht vorhanden sind, die ich vielleicht benötige für gewisse Verfahren, schon, jetzt kommen wir dann doch schon zu Schritte auch automatisch ausführen zu können.", "start": 730.9, "end": 742.65497 }, { "text": "Da ist die Grundlage tatsächlich noch nicht so gut.", "start": 743.27496, "end": 745.435 }, { "text": "Registermodernisierungsgesetz ist auf den Weg gebracht worden, weil es einfach noch keine Verknüpfung zwischen den unterschiedlichen Registern gibt, ich da nicht unbedingt die Abrufmöglichkeiten habe.", "start": 745.435, "end": 756.68 } ], "start": 716.845, "end": 756.68, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das soll verwirklicht werden, aber das ist einfach davon sind wir halt noch weit entfernt.", "start": 756.89996, "end": 761.24 }, { "text": "Deswegen das steht dem dann doch noch 'n bisschen entgegen Und Verwaltungsentscheidungen und darum geht's ja konkret.", "start": 761.54, "end": 768.885 }, { "text": "Die Verwaltungs-, die Sachbearbeitenden, die bearbeiten die Fälle, die entscheiden dann entsprechend.", "start": 769.505, "end": 774.96497 }, { "text": "Und da gibt's aber auch keine Datenbanken, in denen das nachgehalten würde, wo ich dann sagen könnte, das könnt da könnte jetzt ein System erlernen, wie gewisse Entscheidungen gefällt werden.", "start": 775.505, "end": 787.14 }, { "text": "Da bin ich dann tatsächlich doch wieder eher angewiesen auf Gerichtsurteile, wenn dann gewisse Entscheidungen angefochten wurden.", "start": 787.14, "end": 794.2 } ], "start": 756.89996, "end": 794.2, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay, also quasi die auf der Sachbearbeiter*innen Ebene, also das wird nicht dokumentiert, so dieses ich bewillige den Antrag, ich bewillige ihn nicht.", "start": 794.51495, "end": 802.195 }, { "text": "Also das ist das, was fehlt, oder?", "start": 802.195, "end": 803.89496 } ], "start": 794.51495, "end": 803.89496, "num_words": 30.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau, genau das.", "start": 804.035, "end": 805.415 }, { "text": "Aber natürlich, ne, dadurch, dass Entscheidungen natürlich auch angefochten werden, Widersprüche eingelegt werden, hab ich dann doch eine kleinere Grundlage auf jeden Fall, anhand derer ich lernen könnte.", "start": 805.475, "end": 817.47 }, { "text": "Und an sich hat die Verwaltung ja auch den Anspruch Selbstbindung der Verwaltung, dass ich auch ein konsistentes Verwaltungshandeln habe und dass ich nicht abhängig von der Person, die das gerade bearbeitet, eine solche oder eine solche Entscheidung habe, sondern genau, dass die dass die Entscheidungen der Verwaltung auch konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewerte, konsistent sind und gleich ist natürlich auch gleich bewertet wird.", "start": 818.08997, "end": 840.99 }, { "text": "Und dann kann man natürlich sagen, auch wenn es einen Ermessensspielraum gibt, wenn ich natürlich schon so und so viele Entscheidungen gefällt habe, dann hab ich ja doch eine Grundlage, anhand derer ich mich auch diesem Ermessensspielraum annähern kann und dieses Ermessen vielleicht auch ein bisschen vermessen kann, was dann uns wieder in Richtung 1 möglichen Automatisierung, Teilautomatisierung führen kann.", "start": 841.53, "end": 864.78503 } ], "start": 804.035, "end": 864.78503, "num_words": 159.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ich würd noch mal gerne auf die andere Seite eingehen, also auf die Bürger*innen.", "start": 865.44, "end": 869.12 }, { "text": "Das ist ja schon son bisschen angeklungen in dem, was Du gesagt hast, dass die einfach ja auch 'n Recht drauf haben, dass egal, ob sie jetzt in Erfurt wohnen oder in München, ja im Prinzip dasselbe rauskommen sollte bei so 'ner Verwaltungsentscheidung.", "start": 869.12, "end": 881.22504 }, { "text": "Also es gibt ja auch von der Datenethikkommission 'n Gutachten, das zu dem Schluss gekommen ist, dass der Staat sogar angehalten ist, algorithmische Systeme im Interesse der Bürger*innen zu nutzen.", "start": 881.685, "end": 891.22504 }, { "text": "Könnt ihr da noch mal was dazu sagen?", "start": 892.49, "end": 893.93 }, { "text": "Also was haben die davon, wenn das automatisiert wird oder teilautomatisiert?", "start": 893.93, "end": 897.38995 } ], "start": 865.44, "end": 897.38995, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das geht ein bisschen in die Richtung der der Rechtssicherheit, die umfasst, dass tatsächlich bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten es zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen kommt.", "start": 898.00995, "end": 905.69 }, { "text": "Also ich sag ganz bewusst schon ähnlich, weil die Sachverhalte ja in aller Regel nie Ganz", "start": 905.69, "end": 910.305 } ], "start": 898.00995, "end": 910.305, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "leicht sind, ja.", "start": 910.305, "end": 911.28503 } ], "start": 910.305, "end": 911.28503, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Aber dass man dort dorthin kommt.", "start": 911.825, "end": 913.765 }, { "text": "Das steht ein wenig dem einem einem anderen Rechtsprinzip entgegen, das ist die Einzelfallgerechtigkeit, die in Deutschland sehr stark gelebt wird und momentan eigentlich höher bewertet wird als die Rechtssicherheit.", "start": 914.145, "end": 926.82 }, { "text": "Das ist durchaus eine politische Fragestellung, weil die beiden Prinzipien kann man kann man haben keine es gibt keine Hörwertigkeit, das eine oder das anderen, daher ist es durchaus eine politische Entscheidung.", "start": 927.52, "end": 936.9 }, { "text": "Und wir haben momentan ganz sicher ein Übergewicht im in der Einzelfallentscheidung.", "start": 937.445, "end": 940.665 }, { "text": "Und die steht natürlich 1 eine Automatisierung, 1 Teilautomatisierung doch teilweise sehr massiv entgegen und führt durchaus auch zu gefühlten Ungerechtigkeiten.", "start": 942.005, "end": 950.825 } ], "start": 911.825, "end": 950.825, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dass einmal das bei ähnlichen Sachverhalten einmal so und das andere mal so entschieden wird.", "start": 951.62, "end": 957.32 }, { "text": "Das kann gefühlt sein, weil's vielleicht tatsächlich gute Gründe gibt, warum das warum es anders entschieden wurde.", "start": 957.69995, "end": 963.48 }, { "text": "Kann aber tatsächlich auch sein, dass es dass es ja an der an der Auslegung liegt und und es nicht echte Gründe dafür gibt, dass man zu unterschiedlichen Entscheidungen kommt und somit dem Prinzip der Rechtssicherheit daher eigentlich widerspricht, ja darauf ist die Datenethik gekommen, sondern eingegangen im Sinne von, dass algorithmische Systeme da zu 1 höheren Rechtssicherheit und somit gefühlten Gerechtigkeit auch führen können.", "start": 963.695, "end": 988.78 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 988.78, "end": 988.94 } ], "start": 951.62, "end": 988.94, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Weil's ja auch so was wie 'n menschlichen Bias gibt zum Beispiel, ne?", "start": 988.94, "end": 992.0 } ], "start": 988.94, "end": 992.0, "num_words": 13.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ich würd das, also menschlichen Bias ja, aber das kann durchaus auch sein, weil's einfach eine andere Übung hat.", "start": 992.305, "end": 1000.005 }, { "text": "Weil in dieser einen Behörde das aus Generationen schon anders interpretiert wurde als von der Behörde, die vielleicht 20 Kilometer entfernt ist.", "start": 1000.705, "end": 1011.02 }, { "text": "Also das das das muss jetzt nicht unbedingt ein ein ein echter Bayer sein Ja.", "start": 1011.56, "end": 1015.52 }, { "text": "Also im Sinne von Vorurteile, die man die damit ja auch oft verbunden sind, sondern sondern tatsächlich einfach anders gelebte Rechtspraxis in 1 bestimmten Behörde.", "start": 1015.56, "end": 1026.675 } ], "start": 992.305, "end": 1026.675, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, okay.", "start": 1026.675, "end": 1027.655 }, { "text": "Und was aber die Bürger*innen wahrscheinlich auf jeden Fall davon hätten, wär ja eine schnellere Bearbeitung und eine reibungslosere oder könnte man das versprechen?", "start": 1027.9551, "end": 1035.57 } ], "start": 1026.675, "end": 1035.57, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Auf alle Fälle und ich glaub, das ist auch die die große Chance, die die in dieser Automatisierung und da muss man jetzt auch ganz wichtig dazusagen, ob das jetzt KI ist oder ob das ein einfaches ein einfaches Programm ist, das gut nachvollziehbar ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systemären ist, also wo man jetzt keine generativen KI und und Systeme braucht, wo wir ja dann oft diese Frage der Blackbox haben.", "start": 1036.5299, "end": 1058.185 }, { "text": "Also wie man das automatisiert, sei an der Stelle ganz kurz Ja.", "start": 1058.5651, "end": 1061.605 }, { "text": "Dahingestellt, aber wir haben wir hätten dann den großen Vorteil, dass wenn gewisse Sachverhalte vorliegen, ich bekomme ein Kind und Kind ist geboren, Name steht fest, Daten werden übermittelt, ich automatisch auch dann das Kindergeld überwiesen bekomm auf das Konto der Mutter.", "start": 1061.685, "end": 1080.555 }, { "text": "Also das könnte durchaus ein Fall sein, wo ein großer Mehrwert entsteht.", "start": 1080.635, "end": 1084.255 }, { "text": "Es muss vielleicht nicht einmal mein Antrag gestellt werden.", "start": 1084.635, "end": 1087.775 } ], "start": 1036.5299, "end": 1087.775, "num_words": 152.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das führt dann zur Beschleunigung der Auszahlung inklusive auch der Durchführung, also auch der Exekution dann der Durchführung des des Verwaltungshandels mit der Überweisung des Geldes.", "start": 1087.995, "end": 1098.7301 }, { "text": "Und das wär natürlich ein großer Vorteil.", "start": 1099.03, "end": 1100.7301 } ], "start": 1087.995, "end": 1100.7301, "num_words": 33.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und das ist ja gar nicht hypothetisch, sondern das ist ja was, was praktisch gemacht wird.", "start": 1100.79, "end": 1103.99 }, { "text": "Also da gibt's ja dieses Beispiel aus Österreich Ja.", "start": 1103.99, "end": 1106.41 }, { "text": "Wo genau das passiert.", "start": 1107.065, "end": 1108.1849 }, { "text": "Das heißt da nicht Kindergeld, das heißt Familienbeihilfe.", "start": 1108.1849, "end": 1110.045 } ], "start": 1100.79, "end": 1110.045, "num_words": 37.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Exakt, das ist heißt anderer Titel in Österreich hat den einen Vorteil, dass es tatsächlich in Österreich nur die Mutter ist, deswegen brauch ich nicht Entscheidung, wem überweis ich das Geld?", "start": 1110.825, "end": 1119.36 }, { "text": "Das ist das erste Problem.", "start": 1119.6799, "end": 1121.14 }, { "text": "Das Gesetz in Deutschland sind bisschen anders, also ganz also ähnliche bis gleiche Richtwirkung, hat aber die Möglichkeit es auch, den Vater auszuzahlen, was in Österreich gar nicht der Fall ist.", "start": 1121.2, "end": 1132.16 }, { "text": "Da bekommt sie einfach die Mutter und deswegen ist es tatsächlich 1 der Gründe, warum's leichter automatisierbar ist.", "start": 1132.16, "end": 1137.395 }, { "text": "Und an dem Beispiel sehen wir, dass es im Kern dann auch immer wieder die Frage ist, wie komplex sind meine Gesetze?", "start": 1137.9349, "end": 1144.035 } ], "start": 1110.825, "end": 1144.035, "num_words": 107.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und wie einfach kann ich sie dann tatsächlich in in eine Wenn dann Entscheidung bringen und automatisiert dann in die in die Umsetzung.", "start": 1145.615, "end": 1155.91 } ], "start": 1145.615, "end": 1155.91, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau, da kommen wir nämlich auch gleich noch dazu.", "start": 1155.9701, "end": 1157.7301 }, { "text": "Möglicherweise müssen Gesetze auch ganz anders verfasst werden, ne.", "start": 1157.7301, "end": 1160.6901 }, { "text": "Das da machen wir am Ende noch mal 'n Schlenker zu, aber ich würde gern noch mal über diese Zwischenstufen sprechen.", "start": 1160.6901, "end": 1166.9651 }, { "text": "Also was Du jetzt gerade angesprochen hast, Peter, das wär ja eine Vollautomatisierung, ne?", "start": 1166.9651, "end": 1170.5651 }, { "text": "Also es Genau.", "start": 1170.5651, "end": 1171.625 } ], "start": 1155.9701, "end": 1171.625, "num_words": 56.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und eure Publikationen, die der Anlass ist dafür, dass wir hier sprechen, die heißt von der Digitalisierung zur Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren.", "start": 1172.005, "end": 1180.2301 }, { "text": "Also es heißt, es gibt 'n von bis Mhm.", "start": 1181.01, "end": 1183.41 }, { "text": "Digitalisierung bis Automatisierung.", "start": 1183.5701, "end": 1184.63 }, { "text": "Was wären da Zwischenstufen davon oder was ist überhaupt das eine und was ist das andere sozusagen?", "start": 1186.61, "end": 1191.5901 } ], "start": 1172.005, "end": 1191.5901, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Na, die Vollautomatisierung wäre das Beispiel, das wir gerade jetzt durchgesprochen haben.", "start": 1192.005, "end": 1195.925 }, { "text": "Also ich hab ein vollautomatisiertes Verwaltungsverfahren, das wenn alle Elemente vorliegen, ich automatisiert dann eine Zuwendung beispielsweise bekomm.", "start": 1195.925, "end": 1205.145 }, { "text": "Kann man sich, glaub ich, gut vorstellen.", "start": 1205.285, "end": 1206.74 }, { "text": "Teilautomatisiert wäre, dass man zumindest die Punkte, die unzweifelhaft sind, also die ich ihn wenn dann gut abbilden kann.", "start": 1206.74, "end": 1213.7 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1213.7, "end": 1214.2 } ], "start": 1192.005, "end": 1214.2, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und wo ich vielleicht auch die die Datenpunkte, das hat Nicole Cole ja das angesprochen.", "start": 1214.4199, "end": 1218.12 }, { "text": "Wir brauchen ja oft, da reden wir jetzt gar nicht von Big Data, sondern da kann man jetzt von Small Data sprechen.", "start": 1219.095, "end": 1223.835 }, { "text": "Wir brauchen ja die Datenpunkte zu den Personen.", "start": 1224.135, "end": 1226.555 }, { "text": "Also wie ist dein Name?", "start": 1226.615, "end": 1228.235 }, { "text": "Wie ist dein Zivilstand?", "start": 1228.855, "end": 1229.995 } ], "start": 1214.4199, "end": 1229.995, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Hast Du Kinder, die dazu geteilt sind?", "start": 1230.775, "end": 1233.115 }, { "text": "Was ist dein Einkommen?", "start": 1233.2, "end": 1234.16 }, { "text": "Also all diese Datenpunkte sind teilweise digitalisiert, teilweise aber auch noch nicht digitalisiert, teilweise erreichbar, also abrufbar und teilweise auch nicht abrufbar.", "start": 1234.16, "end": 1245.46 }, { "text": "Und das macht's so schwierig heutzutage gerade in Deutschland, weil diese Datenpunkte so verstreut sind, die Verwaltungsverfahren Vollautomatisierung oder auch eine Teilautomatisierung vorzunehmen, weil man zuerst die Knochenarbeit machen muss, alle Datenbanken so aufzubauen, dass sie erreichbar sind, abrufbar sind und dass diese Datenbanken tatsächlich auch dieser Punkt der verwaltungsrechtlichen Wahrheit in Anspruch nehmen können, damit diese Datenpunkte dann automatisiert im Verwaltungsverfahren verarbeitet werden können.", "start": 1245.845, "end": 1283.465 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1283.465, "end": 1283.945 } ], "start": 1230.775, "end": 1283.945, "num_words": 99.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und da gibt's halt Länder, die die da wesentlich weiter sind.", "start": 1283.945, "end": 1288.125 }, { "text": "Österreicher hat beispielsweise seit mehr als 25 Jahren werden dort Register aufgebaut und ähnlich ist es in den skandinavischen Ländern oder auch in den baltischen Staaten, die da auch immer wieder genannt werden.", "start": 1289.42, "end": 1300.0 }, { "text": "Die haben einfach alle Verwaltungsdatenpunkte gut miteinander verknüpft.", "start": 1300.06, "end": 1306.975 }, { "text": "Heißt nicht, dass sie für jedermann abrufbar sind Genau, weil es gibt natürlich", "start": 1306.975, "end": 1310.4149 } ], "start": 1283.945, "end": 1310.4149, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "den Datenschutz auch.", "start": 1310.4149, "end": 1311.1349 } ], "start": 1310.4149, "end": 1311.1349, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Gesagt, genau.", "start": 1311.1349, "end": 1311.955 }, { "text": "Das ist auch in in den unterschiedlichen Ländern also ist es unterschiedlich gelöst.", "start": 1312.2549, "end": 1316.7 }, { "text": "In Estland hat man eine hohe Transparenz, da sehe ich genau, wann hat wer auf meine Daten zugegriffen, eine sehr charmante Lösung und aus welchem Grund wird quasi der Bürger und die Bürgerin wird zum eigenen Datenschützer über seine Daten, bei der weiß ja unter sie weiß ja am besten, ob's 'n Verwaltungsverfahren gegeben hat oder nicht.", "start": 1316.7, "end": 1333.235 }, { "text": "Und ja, und das sind das das das ist sicher eine der größten Herausforderungen, die Nicole auch angesprochen hat mit der Registermodernisierung in Deutschland, die jetzt erst begonnen hat und sicher für den ersten größeren Wurf mal 3 bis 5 Jahre dauern wird und im Vollausbau wahrscheinlich auch bis zu 7 bis 10 Jahre dauern kann.", "start": 1333.615, "end": 1355.75 } ], "start": 1311.1349, "end": 1355.75, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay, aber das ist also die Grundlage, die wir brauchen und dann, was wär denn 'n Beispiel für eine Teilautomatisierung, die dann möglich wäre?", "start": 1355.75, "end": 1362.8451 }, { "text": "Also wo der Mensch noch 'n Faktor ist, Mhm.", "start": 1362.8451, "end": 1365.425 }, { "text": "Aber schon Arbeit gemacht wird im Vorfeld von, weiß ich nicht, KI Algorithmen, was auch immer.", "start": 1365.885, "end": 1371.265 } ], "start": 1355.75, "end": 1371.265, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Na, das könnte tatsächlich jetzt so ein ein Punkt sein bei der beim beim Kindergeld.", "start": 1371.5299, "end": 1375.87 }, { "text": "Das gewisse Punkte ist Sinn schon vorhanden.", "start": 1376.73, "end": 1378.9099 }, { "text": "Das und dass man dann zu dem Punkt kommt, eine dass die Behörde aktiv nachfragt, soll das Kindergeld ausgezahlt werden an den Vater oder an die Mutter.", "start": 1379.69, "end": 1389.1649 }, { "text": "Die das wäre dann bis dorthin wär's voll automatisiert.", "start": 1389.625, "end": 1392.0449 }, { "text": "Ab dem Zeitpunkt gibt's da 'n Bürger*innenkontakt und basierend auf der Antwort kann dann das Verfahren weitergeführt werden.", "start": 1392.2649, "end": 1398.845 } ], "start": 1371.5299, "end": 1398.845, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1399.0901, "end": 1399.5901 }, { "text": "Hast Du vielleicht auch 'n Beispiel, Nicole?", "start": 1399.89, "end": 1402.05 }, { "text": "Also was ja auch denkbar wäre, also es gibt auch diesen Begriff Assistenz, ne, wo man sagt, wir suchen zum Beispiel in alten Urteilen und dann kriegt man, also so hab ichs verstanden, wie so eine Empfehlung mit, also 90 Prozent aller Leute, die mit diesem Fall befasst waren, haben so und so entschieden.", "start": 1402.05, "end": 1416.125 } ], "start": 1399.0901, "end": 1416.125, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, tatsächlich ein gutes Beispiel, was es dafür gibt, kommt dann wiederum aus Österreich, also.", "start": 1416.985, "end": 1421.645 }, { "text": "Nämlich dieser AMS Algorithmus, der Arbeitsuchende in verschiedene Kategorien einteilt, je nach der Wahrscheinlichkeit, wie erfolgreich sie in den Arbeitsmarkt integriert werden können.", "start": 1422.265, "end": 1434.3601 } ], "start": 1416.985, "end": 1434.3601, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Der AMS steht für Arbeitsmarktchancenassistenzsystem, ne, das AMS Algorit.", "start": 1434.42, "end": 1439.4 } ], "start": 1434.42, "end": 1439.4, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau und das ist dann auch als Unterstützung gedacht für die für die Mitarbeitenden.", "start": 1439.665, "end": 1445.285 }, { "text": "Also da wird jetzt nichts per se entschieden, aber damit sie einfach wissen, okay, das ist schon mal das System hat anscheinend hat dann halt verschiedener Datenpunkte, ist zu dem und dem Ergebnis gekommen.", "start": 1445.505, "end": 1457.21 }, { "text": "Das heißt, die Person braucht vielleicht mehr oder weniger Unterstützung oder Unterstützung in dieser oder jeder Hinsicht.", "start": 1457.27, "end": 1463.51 }, { "text": "Das wäre ein ein Beispiel, was mir dann noch einfallen würde.", "start": 1463.51, "end": 1466.3301 } ], "start": 1439.665, "end": 1466.3301, "num_words": 76.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Der aber nicht unumstritten war, ne, dieser AMS Algorithmus, weil der ja auch drüber entschieden hat, kriege ich zum Beispiel eine Fortbildung bezahlt oder gibt mir der Algorithmus gar keine Chance, oder?", "start": 1466.39, "end": 1476.695 } ], "start": 1466.39, "end": 1476.695, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Absolut, höchst umstritten und ist auch so letztendlich nicht in den Volleinsatz gekommen.", "start": 1476.755, "end": 1482.0549 }, { "text": "Ist auch ein schönes Beispiel dafür, was wir alles unter KI packen.", "start": 1482.74, "end": 1485.64 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1485.7001, "end": 1486.1 }, { "text": "Dieser Algorithmus, Du hast das ja richtig ausgesprochen, es war jetzt nicht KI, aber es ist oft unter KI Debatte gelaufen.", "start": 1486.1, "end": 1491.4 }, { "text": "Dahinter war ein relativ simpler Algorithmus, der statistisch berechnet hat, Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, dass diese Person durch eine Weiterbildung zukünftig eine Stelle bekommen wird, sodass die Mittel, die Idee durchaus ja interessant, dass die Mittel gut gesteuert sind.", "start": 1491.86, "end": 1508.465 } ], "start": 1476.755, "end": 1508.465, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also ich hab ein gewisses Budget als Arbeitsmarktservice, das ich einsetzen kann, Personen weiterzuhelfen, damit sie sich wieder weiter qualifizieren können und somit die Jobchancen steigen am Arbeitsmarkt.", "start": 1508.465, "end": 1520.67 }, { "text": "An sich eine gute Idee, nur wenn man das dann im im Praktischen auf den Einzelfall herunterbricht, muss ich auch dazu sagen, das hat nichts automatisiert gemacht, das war ein reines Assistenzinformation zu finden.", "start": 1521.4501, "end": 1532.005 } ], "start": 1508.465, "end": 1532.005, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also es hat gesagt, ich würde hier eine Fortbildung empfehlen, ich würde sie nicht empfehlen, hätte, genau.", "start": 1532.005, "end": 1536.505 } ], "start": 1532.005, "end": 1536.505, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Es es hätte nur die Chancen dargestellt für den für den Berater, die Beraterin des Arbeitsmarktservice.", "start": 1536.5651, "end": 1542.94 }, { "text": "Also das wär gar nicht sichtbar geworden direkt für die arbeitssuchende Person.", "start": 1543.24, "end": 1546.5399 }, { "text": "Aber wir sehen schon, wer will von 'nem Algorithmen muss die Antwort bekommen, dass er unvermittelbar ist.", "start": 1547.0, "end": 1552.12 }, { "text": "Also da steckt einfach sozial auch viel Spannung drinnen und was auf den ersten Blick vielleicht gut gemeint war, kommt man dann im zweiten Schritt drauf, dass das vielleicht nicht ganz, dass das ethisch nicht vereinbar ist mit unserer, zumindest mit unseren Werten, die wir in unserer Gesellschaft pflegen.", "start": 1552.12, "end": 1571.3 } ], "start": 1536.5651, "end": 1571.3, "num_words": 94.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, weil's ja auch, also Du hast es gesagt, es ist nicht KI, aber man kennt ja diese Reproduktion von, also zum Beispiel Stereotyp.", "start": 1571.6, "end": 1577.22 }, { "text": "Frauen haben Ja.", "start": 1578.0349, "end": 1578.675 }, { "text": "Schlechte Chancen aufm Arbeitsmarkt und dann wer hat, dem wird gegeben und wer nicht hat, der kriegt halt keine Fortbildung, ne?", "start": 1578.755, "end": 1583.715 }, { "text": "Also dass man so was dann", "start": 1583.715, "end": 1584.755 } ], "start": 1571.6, "end": 1584.755, "num_words": 54.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Exakt.", "start": 1584.9149, "end": 1585.315 } ], "start": 1584.9149, "end": 1585.315, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja.", "start": 1585.315, "end": 1585.635 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1585.635, "end": 1585.875 } ], "start": 1585.315, "end": 1585.875, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wunderbar, ja, wunderbar dargestellt, ja.", "start": 1585.875, "end": 1587.5549 }, { "text": "Also dass diese stereotypische Abbildung von von von von von Mensch und Personen.", "start": 1587.5549, "end": 1594.13 } ], "start": 1585.875, "end": 1594.13, "num_words": 18.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, okay.", "start": 1594.27, "end": 1595.09 }, { "text": "'N anderes Beispiel, was ich auch in der Publikation gefunden hab, was ich spannend fand, waren Heat Maps.", "start": 1595.23, "end": 1601.25 }, { "text": "Das ist was, was Ordnungskräfte, also Polizei unterstützen kann, zum Beispiel.", "start": 1601.79, "end": 1607.41 }, { "text": "Ich weiß nicht, wahrscheinlich könnt ihr's besser erklären, aber wo Einbruchschwerpunkte sind, ne?", "start": 1608.345, "end": 1611.785 }, { "text": "Das wär zum Beispiel auch 'n Nutzungsbeispiel.", "start": 1611.785, "end": 1613.325 } ], "start": 1594.27, "end": 1613.325, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, geht geht geht geht's geht's so ja noch weiter so, dass das Feld in den in den Bereich, der interessanterweise auch schon vor vor der generativen KI ein sehr, sehr, sehr hitzig debattiert wurde im Prädiktive Policing, also die Vorhersage, weiß ich glaub, Dominative Report gesehen hast, wo die Polizei quasi schon den den Einsatz geplant hat", "start": 1615.385, "end": 1639.525 } ], "start": 1615.385, "end": 1639.525, "num_words": 58.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bevor die Tat.", "start": 1639.605, "end": 1640.485 } ], "start": 1639.605, "end": 1640.485, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bevor das Verbrechen, bevor der Mord im schlimmsten Fall tatsächlich auch stattfindet.", "start": 1640.565, "end": 1644.905 }, { "text": "Das geht ein bisschen in diese Richtung, wo auf Basis von unterschiedlichen Datenpunkten eine Vorhersage getroffen wird, wo man vielleicht zukünftig stärker mit Polizei präsent ist, vielleicht potenzielle Verbrechen zu verhindern.", "start": 1645.765, "end": 1660.4 }, { "text": "Und das sind die Ergebnisse aber sehr gemischt.", "start": 1660.9401, "end": 1663.12 }, { "text": "Funktioniert vielleicht in einem voll kontrollierten System, also wo ich wo ich die die Daten aus dem öffentlichen Raum vielleicht durchgehend auswerten kann, also bis hin zu indem ich vermesse, was es alles zu vermessen gibt, also von Körpertemperatur, der Art und Weise, wie sich Menschen bewegen, wie sie sprechen.", "start": 1664.185, "end": 1686.32 }, { "text": "All diese Datenpunkte, wenn ich die zusammenführe, vielleicht kann ich auf der Basis dann im öffentlichen Raum tatsächlich vieles vorhersagen, was potenziell passieren könnte, aber das ist sicher kein Raum, in dem wir zumindest in Europa leben wollen.", "start": 1686.38, "end": 1700.3949 } ], "start": 1640.565, "end": 1700.3949, "num_words": 139.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 1700.3949, "end": 1700.8949 } ], "start": 1700.3949, "end": 1700.8949, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da gibt's durchaus Beispiele vor allem aus dem asiatischen Raum, die weit über das hinausgehen, was wir uns eigentlich vorstellen wollen.", "start": 1701.755, "end": 1710.14 }, { "text": "Das ist dann tatsächlich gelebte Dystopie, die sich aber vielleicht auch gut anfühlt, weil sie sich sicher anfühlt.", "start": 1710.44, "end": 1715.4 }, { "text": "Das ist dann fast schon 'n paradoxer Zustand.", "start": 1715.4, "end": 1717.74 } ], "start": 1701.755, "end": 1717.74, "num_words": 47.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 1718.44, "end": 1718.52 }, { "text": "Also gut, dann wir kommen hier so in ethische Fragen rein, waren aber ja auch gerade bei den bei den sehr praktischen Fragen.", "start": 1718.52, "end": 1725.075 }, { "text": "Nicole, willst Du da noch mal was dazu sagen zu diesen ethischen Fragen, weil man könnte ja auch sagen, ist blöd, dass Deutschland da jetzt so hinterherhängt, aber andererseits auch eine Chance, weil man ja sehen kann, oha, in Österreich hat dieser Algorithmus für Kritik gesorgt.", "start": 1727.9349, "end": 1742.2001 }, { "text": "Also würdest Du sagen, wir sind jetzt schon schlauer darüber, zum Beispiel unter welchen Umständen es Bürger*innen auch akzeptieren, wenns so voll- oder teilautomatisierte Sachen gibt im Verwaltungsrecht?", "start": 1742.2001, "end": 1755.585 } ], "start": 1718.44, "end": 1755.585, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, das sind ja jetzt viele Fragen in einigen.", "start": 1758.125, "end": 1760.0449 }, { "text": "Ja, das Also ich wollte auch nicht sagen, dass es per se gut ist, dass wir da hinterherhängen.", "start": 1760.0449, "end": 1764.7849 }, { "text": "Ich muss sagen, da hat sich auch viel getan, beispielsweise mit den Datenlaboren der Bundesministerien, die natürlich auch mit KI, mit großen Sprachmodellen, aber für die Verwaltung intern beispielsweise Informationen aufzufinden, zu gucken, wer muss wie beteiligt werden, für solche Verfahren da durchaus schon viel macht und das auch sehr erfolgreich.", "start": 1764.845, "end": 1792.565 }, { "text": "Aber das andere sind natürlich, wenn die Verwaltung mit Außenwirkung handelt, also im Verhältnis zu Bürgerinnen, Bürger oder Unternehmen, dass da natürlich dann vielleicht einfach noch mehr Sicherungsmechanismen eingebaut werden müssen, denn AMS Algorithmus haben wir schon gesagt, war sehr umstritten.", "start": 1793.1849, "end": 1812.985 }, { "text": "Da gab's auch noch in der Vergangenheit ja andere in der Sozialverwaltung auch Skandale weltweit in anderen Ländern, wo Systeme eingesetzt wurden, wo dann die dann einfach fehlerhaft waren an der einen oder anderen Stelle oder wo dann tatsächlich ein Bias drin war, gewisse Gruppen ja tatsächlich systematisch diskriminiert wurden.", "start": 1812.985, "end": 1833.9501 } ], "start": 1758.125, "end": 1833.9501, "num_words": 169.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Denn wir haben gesagt, das ist natürlich einerseits 'n Vorteil, wenn ich ein System habe, ja, dass dass ich dieses Verwaltungshandeln 'n bisschen vereinheitlichen kann, dass ich stärker sicherstellen kann, dass Ähnliches tatsächlich zu ähnlichen Entscheidungen führt.", "start": 1833.9501, "end": 1848.095 }, { "text": "Aber das führt natürlich auch dazu, wenn ich da irgendwo 'n Fehler drin habe, dann hab ich den auch nicht nur in dieser einen Behörde oder nicht nur bei dem einen Sachbearbeitenden, sondern halt auch flächendeckend.", "start": 1848.475, "end": 1858.57 }, { "text": "Das heißt, da sind dann sehr viel mehr Personen gegebenenfalls auch negativ betroffen.", "start": 1858.87, "end": 1864.01 }, { "text": "Und da muss ich natürlich ganz genau hinschauen, weil es gibt ganz ganz verschiedene Wege, wie son Bias auch in son System hineinkommen kann und da muss ich eben über Risikomanagement, über eine kontinuierliche Qualitätssicherung und Evaluation, auch über eine Transparenz versuchen, das zu ja möglichst auszuschließen und in in dem Papier wird ja auch immer wieder dafür argumentiert, dass man vielleicht auch im Sinne der Akzeptanz sagen sollte, solche automatisierten Entscheidungen tatsächlich oder Empfehlungen auch nur in begünstigenden Quellen zuzulassen.", "start": 1864.905, "end": 1904.675 } ], "start": 1833.9501, "end": 1904.675, "num_words": 167.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wie zum Beispiel, Du kriegst Kindergeld?", "start": 1904.675, "end": 1906.215 } ], "start": 1904.675, "end": 1906.215, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau, also da wird wahrscheinlich keiner was dagegen haben, Ja.", "start": 1907.3201, "end": 1910.28 }, { "text": "Wenn das Da hat man sowieso genug zu tun, wenn das wenn das nicht Wenn das was ist, womit man sich Worum man sich nicht auch noch kümmern muss, wenn das einfach automatisch passiert.", "start": 1910.52, "end": 1918.3 }, { "text": "Genau, wenn da jetzt aber plötzlich Kindergeld zurückgefordert wird oder mir irgend eine Leistung gestrichen wird oder sonstiges, dass das dann etwas wäre, was eben nicht automatisiert wird.", "start": 1918.76, "end": 1928.175 }, { "text": "Einfach genau diese diese gesellschaftliche Akzeptanz auch zu sichern.", "start": 1928.395, "end": 1932.235 } ], "start": 1907.3201, "end": 1932.235, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, ja das wären sehr praktisch im Einsatz.", "start": 1932.235, "end": 1934.3351 } ], "start": 1932.235, "end": 1934.3351, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau und was wir was wir dann, wenn man tatsächlich sagt, auch so Begünstigende wie Kindergeld, wenn man das automatisiert, ein Vorteil, den wir eben noch gar nicht angesprochen haben ist, weswegen auch die Datenschutzkommission sich ja dafür ausgesprochen hatte, weil es auch eine inklusive Wirkung hat.", "start": 1934.74, "end": 1950.615 }, { "text": "Also gerade im Sozialbereich, die die Anträge, die sind teilweise sehr, sehr umfangreich und je nach nach meiner Konstitution ist das vielleicht auch mehr als ich, also ist das überfordert mich das vielleicht auch einfach.", "start": 1950.615, "end": 1964.89 }, { "text": "Also da haben auch ja Sozialverbände teilweise sehr viel mit zu tun, zu unterstützen, einfach diese Anträge auszufüllen und dass man da sagt, wenn ich da so weit automatisieren würde, wie es möglich ist, wie ich eben Daten habe et cetera, man bekommen vielleicht auch mehr Personen diese Leistungen, auf die ihnen eigentlich Stand der Sachlage auch zustehen würde und ich eben den Aufwand für sie reduzieren hätte, also eine inklusive Wirkung.", "start": 1965.43, "end": 1993.4401 } ], "start": 1934.74, "end": 1993.4401, "num_words": 154.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, das noch mal 'n ganz wichtiger Punkt, das ist gut, dass Du das noch mal gesagt hast, das war da, wo wir ja drüber gesprochen haben, was haben eigentlich die Bürger*innen davon?", "start": 1994.06, "end": 2000.4601 }, { "text": "Das würde dann wirklich zu mehr Gerechtigkeit führen, weil dann Leute eben möglicherweise gar keinen Antrag stellen müssen in 'ner fremden Sprache in 'nem komplizierten Verwaltungsdeutsch, sondern die kriegen einfach das Geld, was ihnen zusteht.", "start": 2000.4601, "end": 2011.775 }, { "text": "Das ist natürlich wär natürlich toll, ja.", "start": 2011.775, "end": 2013.955 }, { "text": "Peter, Du wolltest auch noch was sagen zu dem Thema.", "start": 2014.175, "end": 2016.27 } ], "start": 1994.06, "end": 2016.27, "num_words": 85.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, vielleicht nur ergänzend, das das führt also nicht nur Gerechtigkeit, sondern auch, dass die Politik ja in aller Regel der Ausgangspunkt ist für eine Sozialmaßnahme, dass diese Politik tatsächlich auch ihre Wirkung erzeugt.", "start": 2016.35, "end": 2029.905 }, { "text": "Also Politik, die keine Wirkung erzeugt, ist ja muss sollte ja zumindest dann fortlaufend noch angepasst werden.", "start": 2029.905, "end": 2035.105 }, { "text": "Und es gibt tatsächlich Verfahren im Sozialbereich, wo nur ein Drittel der potenziellen Personen, die dazu antragsberechtigt, also antragsberechtigt prinzipiell jeder, aber die auch eine Chance haben, tatsächlich diese diese Förderung zu bekommen, diese Unterstützungsleistung zu bekommen, nur ein Drittel das in Anspruch nimmt.", "start": 2035.105, "end": 2053.6401 }, { "text": "Also damit sieht man eigentlich, kann man fast sagen, die Politik ist gescheitert, wenn 2 Drittel gar nicht in der Lage sind, offensichtlich diese Sozialleistungen in Anspruch zu nehmen.", "start": 2053.6401, "end": 2063.205 } ], "start": 2016.35, "end": 2063.205, "num_words": 124.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also spielen auch andere Sachen rein wie Scham oder solche Sachen Scham,", "start": 2063.205, "end": 2065.7383 } ], "start": 2063.205, "end": 2065.7383, "num_words": 12.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "sehr schön.", "start": 2065.7383, "end": 2065.845 } ], "start": 2065.7383, "end": 2065.845, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Wahr halt auch die Hürden, ne.", "start": 2065.925, "end": 2067.525 } ], "start": 2065.925, "end": 2067.525, "num_words": 6.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Selbst absolut.", "start": 2067.525, "end": 2068.185 }, { "text": "Sind nicht sind auch andere, aber auch das wäre natürlich reduziert.", "start": 2069.925, "end": 2073.305 }, { "text": "Auch an an dieser Hürde, wenn ich unter Umständen dann nur noch sagen muss, ja, nein.", "start": 2073.9, "end": 2078.5398 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2078.5398, "end": 2078.78 }, { "text": "So das kann man ja kann man ja sehr wohl auch noch offen lassen, dass man so weit geht die Vollautomatisierung und dann die letzte Frage stellt, willst Du die Zuwendung haben oder nicht?", "start": 2078.78, "end": 2087.5798 } ], "start": 2067.525, "end": 2087.5798, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja.", "start": 2087.5798, "end": 2088.0798 }, { "text": "Also das zeigt schon sehr deutlich, dass da hohe Mehrwerte damit verbunden sein können.", "start": 2088.845, "end": 2093.105 }, { "text": "Mir sind noch 2 Punkte aufgefallen und zwar der Bias in den Daten, weil da immer wieder so stark diskutiert wird.", "start": 2093.2449, "end": 2098.065 }, { "text": "Das Bittere am Bias in den Daten ist, dass es leider Gottes in aller Regel die Wirklichkeit widerspiegelt.", "start": 2098.285, "end": 2105.41 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2105.63, "end": 2106.13 } ], "start": 2087.5798, "end": 2106.13, "num_words": 55.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Also die Ungerechtigkeit, die wir bereits in unseren Gesellschaften haben, spiegeln sich in den Daten wider.", "start": 2106.3499, "end": 2112.19 }, { "text": "Wir sagen dann immer so salopp, der Bias in den Daten und und haben damit und damit sind wir schon fertig, weil die Daten sind schuld.", "start": 2112.19, "end": 2119.365 }, { "text": "Na ja, viel viel stärker ist es tatsächlich durch die Daten hab ich eine extrem hohe Transparenz und sehe die Ungerechtigkeiten, die ich in Gesellschaften hab.", "start": 2119.845, "end": 2128.005 }, { "text": "Also das vielleicht zu dir zu der zu der Bias Diskussion ein Punkt und der andere, weil ein bisschen so war versus hat Deutschland 'n Vorteil oder 'n Nachteil.", "start": 2128.005, "end": 2135.4502 }, { "text": "Das kommt jetzt drauf an.", "start": 2136.23, "end": 2137.61 } ], "start": 2106.3499, "end": 2137.61, "num_words": 102.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In den Bereichen der tatsächlich Automatisierung, wo ich die exakten Datenpunkte brauch aus den Datenbanken, aus den Registern, die wir zuerst beschrieben haben, damit ich so eine Automatisierung machen kann.", "start": 2137.75, "end": 2147.865 }, { "text": "Wie ist dein Name?", "start": 2147.9248, "end": 2148.805 }, { "text": "Wo bist Du geboren?", "start": 2148.805, "end": 2149.865 }, { "text": "Wie ist dein Kind?", "start": 2149.9248, "end": 2150.9648 }, { "text": "Wie ist dein wie ist dein Einkommen?", "start": 2150.9648, "end": 2152.565 } ], "start": 2137.75, "end": 2152.565, "num_words": 49.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da brauch ich die exakten Daten.", "start": 2152.565, "end": 2153.9248 }, { "text": "Da hat Deutschland tatsächlich einen großen Nachteil aktuell.", "start": 2153.9248, "end": 2156.9849 }, { "text": "Und der das wird auch nicht so leicht und so schnell aufzuholen sein, weil's hier eben, da muss ich an die an an die Register, an die Datenbanken heran.", "start": 2157.62, "end": 2164.68 }, { "text": "In den Bereichen von Assistenzsystemen kann das ganz anders sein.", "start": 2165.3801, "end": 2168.26 }, { "text": "Also da liegt's viel mehr an der Innovationskraft.", "start": 2168.26, "end": 2170.28 } ], "start": 2152.565, "end": 2170.28, "num_words": 61.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Welche Daten hab vorhanden, wie Nicole das kurz angesprochen hat.", "start": 2170.74, "end": 2174.355 }, { "text": "Da kann ich Beratungsassistenten bauen mit Daten, die vorhanden sind innerhalb 1 Behörde, die dann die Arbeit, die tagtägliche Arbeit unterstützen von Beamten und Beamtinnen.", "start": 2174.355, "end": 2184.455 }, { "text": "Und in dem Bereich, wenn wir da schauen, da liegt jetzt Deutschland nicht hinter Österreich.", "start": 2184.9502, "end": 2189.37 } ], "start": 2170.74, "end": 2189.37, "num_words": 50.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Okay.", "start": 2189.4302, "end": 2189.59 } ], "start": 2189.4302, "end": 2189.59, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Da würd ich sogar sagen, da ist also auf gleichauf, wenn ich wenn ich da wenn nicht sogar vorne, weil wir mehr Innovationen in den Bereichen in Deutschland sehen als in Österreich.", "start": 2189.59, "end": 2198.1702 }, { "text": "Also es kommt wirklich drauf an, wo man hinschaut.", "start": 2198.6648, "end": 2201.065 }, { "text": "Also ist es jetzt die Automatisierung des Verwaltungsverfahren, dann großer Nachteil, ist es die Innovationskraft, die man jetzt mit generativen KI Systemen, also textbasierten Systemen bauen kann, dann dann hat Deutschland jetzt nicht den Riesen Nachteil, also könnt man jetzt wieder in Details gehen, aber da und da sehen wir auch immer wieder auch viel Innovation.", "start": 2201.065, "end": 2219.69 } ], "start": 2189.59, "end": 2219.69, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ich würde jetzt gerne noch einen Punkt, den wir so kurz angesprochen haben, der aber glaube ich auch wichtig ist bei dem wie macht man's richtig, die Gesetzesformulierungen.", "start": 2220.31, "end": 2230.575 }, { "text": "Also wann ist ein Gesetz automatisierungstauglich?", "start": 2231.755, "end": 2233.775 }, { "text": "Da wird ja zum Beispiel in Dänemark immer schon geprüft, bevor 'n Gesetz erlassen wird.", "start": 2235.355, "end": 2240.075 }, { "text": "Ja.", "start": 2240.075, "end": 2240.4749 }, { "text": "Das machen wir ja in Deutschland nicht.", "start": 2240.4749, "end": 2242.1748 } ], "start": 2220.31, "end": 2242.1748, "num_words": 57.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Könnt ihr dazu noch mal was sagen?", "start": 2242.37, "end": 2243.9102 } ], "start": 2242.37, "end": 2243.9102, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Die Dänen haben das tatsächlich in der in der vollen Bandbreite.", "start": 2245.25, "end": 2248.37 }, { "text": "Also diskutiert wird's an vielen Stellen.", "start": 2248.37, "end": 2250.1301 }, { "text": "Es gibt auch in es gibt auch gab in Österreich und vor allem jetzt in Deutschland ein ein Projekt dazu und das das Recht in der Entstehung schon digitalisierungsfreundlich auszugestalten.", "start": 2250.1301, "end": 2259.845 }, { "text": "Der Digitalcheck war das.", "start": 2260.145, "end": 2261.265 } ], "start": 2245.25, "end": 2261.265, "num_words": 51.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2261.265, "end": 2261.765 }, { "text": "Ich", "start": 2261.9849, "end": 2262.145 } ], "start": 2261.265, "end": 2262.145, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "geh auch davon aus, dass der in der nächsten Bundesregierung ganz sicher auch wieder ein Thema sein wird.", "start": 2262.145, "end": 2267.105 }, { "text": "Das ist ein sehr gut aufgesetztes Projekt, das sich genau dieser Frage eben stellt, wie können Verwaltungs, vor allem Verwaltungsgesetze, Verwaltungsrecht so von Beginn an gedacht werden, dass es möglichst gut digitalisierbar ist?", "start": 2267.105, "end": 2281.36 }, { "text": "Und deine Frage, was muss ich beachten, klingt jetzt fast banal, wenn ich drauf sag, die Sprache sollte einfach sein.", "start": 2281.36, "end": 2287.805 } ], "start": 2262.145, "end": 2287.805, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mehr Kochrezept.", "start": 2287.805, "end": 2288.545 } ], "start": 2287.805, "end": 2288.545, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Einfach, ja, ein und und und einfacher Sprache, also hat auch dann einen positiven Nebeneffekt.", "start": 2288.845, "end": 2295.085 }, { "text": "Das ist dann vielleicht auch für durchschnittlichen Bürger, Bürgerinnen einfacher verständlich oder Geschäfts Geschäftsfrau.", "start": 2295.085, "end": 2301.77 }, { "text": "Das ist zum Beispiel 1 der ersten Prinzipien, das die Dänen anwenden.", "start": 2302.79, "end": 2306.1702 }, { "text": "Wie Du's richtig angesprochen hast, die Dänen haben das haben diese Prinzipien sogar im Parlament beschlossen, parteiübergreifend.", "start": 2306.71, "end": 2314.155 }, { "text": "Es war ein einstimmiger Beschluss des Parlaments, dass die Gesetze in Dänemark geprüft werden, bevor sie vom Parlament beschlossen werden auf ihre Digitalisierungsfreundlichkeit und das ist einfache Sprache.", "start": 2314.6152, "end": 2325.3552 } ], "start": 2288.845, "end": 2325.3552, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das ist die Automatisierung soll immer auch mitgedacht werden.", "start": 2325.94, "end": 2329.4001 }, { "text": "Es soll von Beginn an digital gedacht werden und natürlich auch die elektronische Kommunikation von Anfang an mitgedacht werden und berücksichtigt werden.", "start": 2329.54, "end": 2339.115 }, { "text": "Das sind so die stärksten Prinzipien.", "start": 2339.275, "end": 2341.055 }, { "text": "Es gibt da noch weitere, aber das sind, glaube ich, die die großen 4, auf die jeder schaut, sobald ein neues Gesetz geschrieben wird oder auch ein altes Gesetz novelliert wird.", "start": 2341.355, "end": 2351.455 }, { "text": "Das kann dann vielleicht bedeuten, dass es nicht mehr 15, 20 unterschiedliche Begriffe für Einkommen und Vermögen gibt, sondern dass es vielleicht nur noch 3 gibt mit 3 Berechnungsformeln.", "start": 2351.9001, "end": 2362.72 } ], "start": 2325.94, "end": 2362.72, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und das kann dann schon wesentlich erleichtern, wie Gesetze tatsächlich dann auch digitalisiert werden können.", "start": 2363.6602, "end": 2372.355 } ], "start": 2363.6602, "end": 2372.355, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, genau.", "start": 2372.355, "end": 2373.095 }, { "text": "Das fand ich noch mal 'n schönen Punkt, weil man's da wirklich von Anfang an so viel richtig machen kann und sich's dann so viel einfacher macht auf dem Weg dahin, ja.", "start": 2373.155, "end": 2378.915 } ], "start": 2372.355, "end": 2378.915, "num_words": 34.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau.", "start": 2378.915, "end": 2379.27 }, { "text": "Und entstehen nur die Gesetze aller Regel in den Ministerien.", "start": 2379.43, "end": 2381.85 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2381.99, "end": 2382.49 }, { "text": "Die Erstentwürfe, die dann in den politischen Diskurs gehen und daher muss man das wirklich von Sekunde 0, wenn ich das so sagen darf, eigentlich schon mitdenken.", "start": 2382.79, "end": 2390.01 }, { "text": "Sei's die Juristen, Juristinnen, die Legisten, Legistinnen, die die wirklich das erste Mal auf dem weißen Blatt Papier beginnen zu schreiben, denen muss das schon bewusst sein von Sekunde 0.", "start": 2390.47, "end": 2400.375 } ], "start": 2378.915, "end": 2400.375, "num_words": 69.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja.", "start": 2400.375, "end": 2400.695 }, { "text": "Was muss ich denn alles bedenken, digital tauglich gute Gesetze schreiben zu können?", "start": 2400.695, "end": 2405.995 }, { "text": "Zieht sich dann natürlich schon auch in den in den parlamentarischen Diskurs, weil auch hier das Bewusstsein da sein muss.", "start": 2406.135, "end": 2413.01 }, { "text": "Da 1 der Gründe, warum die Gesetze so komplex sind in Deutschland, also wirklich noch mal komplexer als in Österreich und da Österreich legt die Latte schon relativ hoch, aber Deutschland springt da mit 1 Leichtigkeit noch mal weit darüber.", "start": 2413.9502, "end": 2425.8652 }, { "text": "Ist der politische Diskurs ist noch mal intensiver, auch mit den Ländern.", "start": 2426.405, "end": 2430.645 } ], "start": 2400.375, "end": 2430.645, "num_words": 86.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2430.645, "end": 2431.125 } ], "start": 2430.645, "end": 2431.125, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und jeder politischer Kompromiss spiegelt sich dann oft auch im Gesetzestext wider, wird unbestimmter oder es gibt die nächste die es gibt weitere Ausnahmen, die dann die die die Durchführung der Gesetze und auch die Digitalisierung der Gesetze so unglaublich erschweren.", "start": 2431.125, "end": 2448.78 }, { "text": "Also wir sehen, wie all diese Elemente, auf die man vielleicht zuerst gar nicht hinschaut, einen einen eine Wirkung haben können auf digitalisierungsfreundliche Gesetze.", "start": 2449.095, "end": 2457.895 }, { "text": "Mhm.", "start": 2457.895, "end": 2458.135 }, { "text": "Also vom Legisten der Legistin bis hin zum politischen Diskurs im im im im Bundestag.", "start": 2458.135, "end": 2464.075 } ], "start": 2431.125, "end": 2464.075, "num_words": 81.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja, okay.", "start": 2464.375, "end": 2465.4 } ], "start": 2464.375, "end": 2465.4, "num_words": 2.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Genau, das ist ja beim Digitalcheck, der auf Bundesebene eingeführt worden ist, sind die Prinzipien gehen in eine ganz ähnliche Richtung.", "start": 2465.6199, "end": 2473.16 }, { "text": "Auch Automatisierung soll mitgedacht werden, elektronische Kommunikation, sind Daten schon vorhanden und können vielleicht wiederverwendet werden.", "start": 2473.22, "end": 2481.215 }, { "text": "Da hat der Digitalservice 5 Prinzipien auch entwickelt, wahrscheinlich auch in Anlehnung an Dänemark, genau weiß ich's aber nicht.", "start": 2481.2349, "end": 2488.895 }, { "text": "Ah ja, hab ich mir schon fast gedacht, dass die sich wahrscheinlich auch international nach Best Practice Beispielen umgeschaut haben und was da auch immer forciert wird und was auch dazu beiträgt, ja das da haben wir ja schon drüber gesprochen, diese Denkweise ist so unterschiedlich zwischen der Digitalisierung und der juristischen Sprache und das son bisschen zu überbrücken, werden Visualisierungen da ganz groß gemacht.", "start": 2490.1702, "end": 2512.4849 }, { "text": "Also, dass ich tatsächlich dieses komplette Verfahren, wie es abläuft, einmal visualisiere als Flussdiagramm oder sonstiges, weil dann kann ich Abhängigkeiten viel klarer sehen.", "start": 2512.9448, "end": 2526.47 } ], "start": 2465.6199, "end": 2526.47, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das geht dann wieder in Richtung Wenn Dann Regelung gegebenenfalls.", "start": 2526.69, "end": 2529.59 }, { "text": "Dann fällt mir auch auf, wenn da vielleicht irgendwo Medienbrüche drin sind, wenn Prozesse vielleicht ineffizient sind, wenn ich an verschiedenen Stellen dieselben Daten wieder abfrage und wenn ich das einmal in der Form visualisiert habe, dann ist das eine gute Grundlage, das hinterher vielleicht auch digital umsetzen zu können Und es führt auch zu 'ner erhöhten Transparenz.", "start": 2530.3699, "end": 2552.66 }, { "text": "Wie läuft das Verfahren ab und erleichtert auch die Kommunikation und wie gesagt, diesen Brückenschlag son bisschen zwischen diesen doch sehr in ihren Logiken sehr unterschiedlichen Disziplinen.", "start": 2552.66, "end": 2561.96 } ], "start": 2526.69, "end": 2561.96, "num_words": 95.0, "speaker": 2 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ja.", "start": 2562.5, "end": 2562.975 }, { "text": "Ja, zu den Ausführungen von Nicole und wenn das wenn das alles dann so in in dieser Schönheit umgesetzt ist, wie Nicole das jetzt grad beschrieben hat und der nächsten Bundesregierung, digitalisierungstaugliche Gesetze so entstehen, dann kommen wir vielleicht ein bisschen weg vom Gedicht und der Poesie hin doch zu einem stärker einem Backrezept in Form der zukünftigen des zukünftigen Verwaltungsrechts.", "start": 2563.7751, "end": 2585.02 } ], "start": 2562.5, "end": 2585.02, "num_words": 62.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Und die muss es auch geben, kann auch viel Schönes sein, son gelungener Kuchen.", "start": 2585.32, "end": 2588.78 }, { "text": "Danke euch beiden.", "start": 2589.0, "end": 2590.14 } ], "start": 2585.32, "end": 2590.14, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Danke sehr.", "start": 2590.28, "end": 2591.0999 }, { "text": "Gern.", "start": 2591.72, "end": 2592.22 } ], "start": 2590.28, "end": 2592.22, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Das war, der Podcast des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT.", "start": 2594.435, "end": 2599.335 }, { "text": "Ich danke meinen Gästen Professor Peter Pariczek und Nicole Opieller, Leiter und stellvertretende Leiterin des Kompetenzzentrums öffentlicher IT am Fraunhofer Institut Focus in Berlin.", "start": 2599.395, "end": 2609.5999 }, { "text": "Die passende Publikation zum Thema findet ihr online unter ö fit Punkt d e mit o e geschrieben und das Link in den Shownotes.", "start": 2610.22, "end": 2618.16 }, { "text": "Ihr könnt diesen Podcast gerne abonnieren, kostenfrei auf Apple Podcasts, Spotify und vielen weiteren Portalen.", "start": 2618.46, "end": 2624.155 }, { "text": "Dann bekommt ihr immer Bescheid, wenn eine neue Folge erscheint, also ganz automatisch.", "start": 2624.775, "end": 2629.355 } ], "start": 2594.435, "end": 2629.355, "num_words": 84.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mein Name ist Franziska Walser, ich freu mich auf das nächste Mal.", "start": 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Kannst könnt ihr noch mal erklären diese unbestimmten Rechtsbegriffe? 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Mhm. Die Poesie, die man fortlaufend auch immer wieder unterschiedlich interpretieren kann. Mhm. 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Ja. Es gibt ja verschiedene juristische Bereiche. 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Also wo der Mensch noch 'n Faktor ist, Mhm.", "words": [ { "word": "die", "start": 1361.645, "end": 1361.885, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "die", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "dann", "start": 1361.885, "end": 1362.125, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "dann", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "möglich", "start": 1362.125, "end": 1362.4451, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "möglich", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "wäre", "start": 1362.4451, "end": 1362.8451, "confidence": 0.80615234, "punctuated_word": "wäre?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "also", "start": 1362.8451, "end": 1363.0851, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Also", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "wo", "start": 1363.0851, "end": 1363.4851, "confidence": 0.8803711, "punctuated_word": "wo", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "der", "start": 1363.4851, "end": 1363.7251, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "der", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "mensch", "start": 1363.7251, "end": 1363.9651, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Mensch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "noch", "start": 1363.9651, "end": 1364.125, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "noch", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "'n", "start": 1364.125, "end": 1364.285, "confidence": 0.97753906, "punctuated_word": "'n", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "faktor", "start": 1364.285, "end": 1364.685, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Faktor", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.833497 }, { "word": "ist", "start": 1364.685, "end": 1364.805, "confidence": 0.8486328, "punctuated_word": "ist,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.23781991 }, { "word": "mhm", "start": 1364.925, "end": 1365.425, "confidence": 0.99365234, "punctuated_word": "Mhm.", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.23781991 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "678da081-ec8b-457f-aa06-7798c3eb0aee" }, { "start": 1365.885, "end": 1375.87, "confidence": 0.96006334, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Aber schon Arbeit gemacht wird im Vorfeld von, weiß ich nicht, KI Algorithmen, was auch immer. 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Okay. Hast Du vielleicht auch 'n Beispiel, Nicole? Also was ja auch denkbar wäre, also es gibt auch diesen Begriff Assistenz, ne, wo man sagt, wir suchen zum Beispiel in alten Urteilen und dann kriegt man, also so hab ichs verstanden, wie so eine Empfehlung mit, also", "words": [ { "word": "und", "start": 1395.3049, "end": 1395.625, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "und", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.87834275 }, { "word": "basierend", "start": 1395.625, "end": 1396.105, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "basierend", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.87834275 }, { "word": "auf", "start": 1396.105, "end": 1396.2649, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "auf", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.87834275 }, { "word": "der", "start": 1396.2649, "end": 1396.505, "confidence": 0.6699219, "punctuated_word": "der", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.87834275 }, { "word": "antwort", "start": 1396.505, "end": 1396.9049, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Antwort", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 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Das wär zum Beispiel auch 'n Nutzungsbeispiel.", "words": [ { "word": "sind", "start": 1611.385, "end": 1611.545, "confidence": 0.8027344, "punctuated_word": "sind,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { "word": "ne", "start": 1611.545, "end": 1611.785, "confidence": 0.7902832, "punctuated_word": "ne?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { "word": "das", "start": 1611.785, "end": 1611.945, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "Das", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { "word": "wär", "start": 1611.945, "end": 1612.1849, "confidence": 0.91503906, "punctuated_word": "wär", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { "word": "zum", "start": 1612.1849, "end": 1612.345, "confidence": 0.5366211, "punctuated_word": "zum", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { "word": "beispiel", "start": 1612.345, "end": 1612.505, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "Beispiel", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.73758286 }, { 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Wie zum Beispiel, Du kriegst Kindergeld?", "words": [ { "word": "quellen", "start": 1903.795, "end": 1904.1951, "confidence": 0.8540039, "punctuated_word": "Quellen", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.6779823 }, { "word": "zuzulassen", "start": 1904.1951, "end": 1904.675, "confidence": 0.9890137, "punctuated_word": "zuzulassen.", "speaker": 2, "speaker_confidence": 0.6779823 }, { "word": "wie", "start": 1904.675, "end": 1904.835, "confidence": 0.9921875, "punctuated_word": "Wie", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.14877486 }, { "word": "zum", "start": 1904.835, "end": 1904.995, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "zum", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.14877486 }, { "word": "beispiel", "start": 1904.995, "end": 1905.235, "confidence": 0.7832031, "punctuated_word": "Beispiel,", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.42471415 }, { "word": "du", "start": 1905.235, "end": 1905.475, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "Du", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.42471415 }, { "word": "kriegst", "start": 1905.475, "end": 1905.715, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "kriegst", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.42471415 }, { "word": "kindergeld", "start": 1905.715, "end": 1906.215, "confidence": 0.8198242, "punctuated_word": "Kindergeld?", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.42471415 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "2b2cb003-9f42-4d02-82a3-396520f68c70" }, { "start": 1907.3201, "end": 1918.3, "confidence": 0.94609207, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Genau, also da wird wahrscheinlich keiner was dagegen haben, Ja. 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Einfach genau diese diese gesellschaftliche Akzeptanz auch zu sichern. 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Wie ist dein Name? Wo bist Du geboren? Wie ist dein Kind? Wie ist dein wie ist dein Einkommen? Da brauch ich die exakten Daten. 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