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Così come l'elettricità nel ventesimo secolo intelligenza artificiale la capacità di animare I prodotti e le comunicazioni dotando ogni cosa dai veicoli alle telecamere alle armi della capacità di interagire con il mondo che li circonda ma anche tra loro. Il termine intelligenza artificiale è stato coniato nel 1956, da allora ci sono stati molti alti e bassi nello sviluppo di questa tecnologia, ma quello che è cambiato nell'ultimo decennio è la grande quantità di dati prodotti ogni giorno e l'immensa potenza di calcolo a disposizione di aziende e governi di tutto il mondo. I dati sono infatti il carburante del machine learning che a sua volta è l'elemento base dell'intelligenza artificiale. Questa tecnologia si nutre di algoritmi e funziona grazie a lunghe sequenze di codici che determinano come la macchina reagirà. Attraverso queste scatole nere, rigorosamente coperte da copyright, è possibile dotare le intelligenze artificiali di qualità di calcolo che permettono di compiere operazioni complesse in pochissimo tempo, surrogando caratteristiche tipicamente esclusive del ragionamento umano. Insomma creare intelligenze artificiali capaci di avvicinare sempre di più il modo di pensare di una macchina a quello umano è probabilmente una delle sfide più impegnative che attendono l'uomo nei prossimi anni. Ma parlare di algoritmi, intelligenze artificiali e uomo solleva ancora tanti dubbi che attengono soprattutto alla sfera dell'etica e della fiducia, animando un dibattito che si muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano e responsabilità di chi crea l'arte. Che si muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano e responsabilità di chi crea l'artificiale, una discussione che investe la regolamentazione giuridica, I principi etici e I meccanismi di funzionamento delle macchine. A oggi non esiste una regolazione complessiva e organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il regolazione complessiva e organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il vuoto è spesso colmato con il richiamo ad altre norme. D'altronde il fenomeno dell'intelligenza artificiale è nella sua percezione da parte dei legislatori così nuovo e dinamico da non consentire neanche una sua definizione condivisa né una piena consapevolezza delle sue potenzialità e dei suoi rischi. Solo nell'ultimo periodo I governi, in particolare quelli occidentali, si sono concretamente posti il problema delle tecniche predittive, del controllo sociale, del profiling, della manipolazione delle notizie, dei pregiudizi e delle discriminazioni determinate dagli algoritmi. Nel frattempo a Bruxelles, a più di un anno dalla pubblicazione di libro bianco, si sta muovendo qualcosa e I primi passi si muovono verso una regolamentazione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale, uno degli obiettivi dichiarati dalla presidente Ursula von der Leyen al suo insediamento. Ma non è tutto. In occasione dei lavori del Trade and Technology Council, Unione Europea e Stati Uniti hanno annunciato la volontà di intensificare la collaborazione transatlantica sulle tecnologie emergenti e specie sull'intelligenza artificiale e di vigilare sull'invio di prodotti Dual use che possono avere impieghi militari e civili. Il tutto per contrastare l'avanzata tecnologica del Cremlino nel conflitto russo-ucraina. In un mondo fatto di uomini che utilizzano algoritmi per accedere ai servizi negli ambiti più disparati e macchine che grazie agli algoritmi diventano capaci di provare sentimenti, ci avviamo verso un futuro di replicanti in stile Blade Runner? Quali sono I vantaggi strategici che può comportare l'uso dell'intelligenza artificiale nel confronto internazionale? Quali sono I rischi? Per rispondere a queste altre domande l'ospite di tecnopolicy è padre Paolo Benanti professore di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università Gregoriana. Oggi diamo il benvenuto a padre Paolo Benanti, che è professore di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università. Di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università Gregoriana. Salve e ben trovati. Benvenuto, grazie di essere con noi. Allora, in questo podcast noi partiamo sempre da una domanda che scarichiamo sul nostro ospite, per comodità anche dell'intervistatore, ed è quella di presentarsi, cioè di raccontare il proprio percorso professionale umano e di come oggi si sia arrivati a questo punto. Come è arrivato Paolo Benanti ad oggi? Diciamo che la storia di ciascuno di noi è fatta di incontri, di casualità e di occasioni. Io ero uno dei tanti ragazzi di Roma degli anni 90 che pensava che il suo futuro fosse quello di finire gli studi e poi cercare uno dei tanti possibili impieghi sul mercato del lavoro. Stavo studiando ingegneria, però mentre facevo ingegneria, profeticamente un professore di filosofia del liceo aveva visto in me qualcosa che io magari non avevo visto quando gli avevo detto che preferivo la tecnica alla filosofia. Lui mi aveva detto: Beh, preferirei far carriera che non capire la realtà. Ecco, a un certo punto, mentre stavo verso il quarto anno di ingegneria, mi sono reso conto che l'ingegneria era potentissima, ma mi dava un buono schema per approssimare la realtà. Desideravo qualcosa di più. Non me lo sono sinceramente andato a cercare, però, come tante volte accade, all'epoca avevo una storia con una ragazza, questa ragazza mi fatto incontrare I frati e un giorno, durante un incontro, ho visto in quella forma di vita, in quella possibilità di poter cercare il senso delle cose per tutta la mia vita un qualcosa che mi piaceva tantissimo Da lì è partito un percorso che mi portato prima a studiare filosofia, poi teologia e finito il percorso teologico ho fatto una specializzazione in etica Dopo la specializzazione in etica sostanzialmente ho preso una borsa di studio per Georgestown, dove mi hanno invitato a fare un dottorato, o parte di un dottorato, perché poi per motivi ecclesiali il titolo mi serviva che fosse di un'Università pontificia, sull'intersezione tra umano, tecnologia e quant'altro. E lì ho potuto recuperare in questo percorso di studi tanto gli studi tecnici quanto gli studi etici e filosofici. E così è venuto fuori questo Pitch D, questo dottorato sull'intersezione tra umano e macchina e sulle sfide tra umano e macchina e dentro questo dottorato c'erano 3 sfide, erano 3 gli ambiti tecnologici che andavo a indagare. Uno era quello delle nanotecnologie, uno era quello delle biotecnologie cognitive e uno era quello dell'intelligenza artificiale. Era il 2009 e all'epoca pensavo che fossero le neurotecnologie dell'enancement, quelle che più promettevano un impatto forte. Era partita la primavera delle intelligenze artificiali, è tornato in Italia, quello è stato un po' il grande cammino di approfondimento. Nel frattempo uno dei temi che tratti con più attenzione è quello dell'argoretica, cioè quali principi si possono applicare agli algoritmi, come insegnare a questi algoritmi a seguire dei principi e dei valori che noi consideriamo fondamentali e quindi come fanno le macchine a capire quello che noi abbiamo messo qualche migliaio di anni a sviluppare come principi, valori e cardini del nostro agire come esseri umani? Dunque, noi abbiamo visto un profondo momento di trasmutazione profonda del nostro vivere con la rivoluzione industriale, quando una macchina improvvisamente è riuscita a prendere il posto del nostro muscolo, della nostra forza muscolare. A partire dagli anni 'cinquanta dello scorso secolo, abbiamo iniziato a pensare di potere, grazie alla computazione, a questa forza che di fatto le macchine calcolatrici ci davano, diventati poi computer, di poter far prendere alla macchina anche un'altra funzione umana, che è quella della cognizione. Le tecnologie cosiddette intelligenti nascono come un'evoluzione che però rischia di fare un'ulteriore rivoluzione industriale, questa volta dagli effetti molto più deflagranti e globali. Tutto questo si gioca attorno a un fattore chiave che è la computazione. Uno dei padri di questo mondo, Alan Turing, contemporaneamente a un altro studioso che si chiama Church, formulano indipendentemente ma connessi quello che è un po' il postulato dei Church Touring. Il postulato è questo: qualsiasi operazione computabile, indipendentemente dal substrato che lo computa, prima o poi potrà essere computata analogamente da un'altra macchina. E quindi, se l'intelligenza è qualcosa di calcolabile, prima o poi qualcosa di non biologico potrà in qualche misura calcolarlo nella stessa maniera. Quello che negli anni 50 era un sogno oggi lo vediamo con Alpha Fold, con Deepmind, con GPT-tre sempre più vicino. Ecco, ma questa trasformazione è veramente analoga all'essere umano? Ecco, se mi permettete di giocare un po' con le parole, la computazione inizia con la lettera C, ecco, ci sono almeno altre C che poi dopo 50-settanta anni ci siamo resi conto che non sono computabili. Uno è il corpo, perché c'è il cosiddetto paradosso di Moravec, per cui un'intelligenza artificiale riesce a fare molto bene un compito cognitivo alto, il logaritmo di 12, e riesce a fare molto meno bene un compito cognitivo basso, come aprire la maniglia di una porta. Per cui una calcolatrice che fa un logaritmo la compro a pochi dollari o a pochi centesimi, anche su una piattaforma di e-commerce. Una mano robotica che apre la maniglia, ecco, mi serve un grande istituto italiano di tecnologia e costa centinaia di migliaia di euro. Mentre un bambino, a 5 anni, apre la maniglia di casa e se ne va a giocare, per fare il logaritmo deve arrivare alle superiori. La corporeità e il dono che la corporeità ci fa come intelligenza e intelligenza motoria non si computa. L'altra cosa è la coscienza. Ecco, il paradigma di Church Turing è connesso a un fattore, un problema è computabile, sto semplificando molto, se conosce un suo termine, qualcosa che a che fare con un interrupt. Ecco, la nostra coscienza, se un interrupt, gli succede qualcosa di molto brutto che si chiama morte. Quindi la coscienza non è un problema Turing computabile. Corpo, coscienza, ma c'è un'altra cosa che le macchine non ci riescono a dire, sempre con la C, la causalità. Ecco, noi possiamo prendere qualcosa che è correlativo, Si aprono gli ombrelli, quindi piove, l'accelerometro del mio telefonino dice che sto rallentando, quindi c'è traffico. Ma perché c'è traffico? Non lo riusciamo a dire. E quindi la causazione è ancora qualcosa che di fatto appartiene solo all'umano. Ecco, questi fattori non computabili ci dicono che c'è uno spazio umano di differenza qualitativa rispetto alla macchina. Che cos'è l'algoretica? E' cercare di scrivere un nuovo capitolo di questo spazio umano e solo umano che è l'etica, non è animale perché gli animali hanno gli istinti, non è delle macchine perché le macchine hanno la progettazione E questa volta, nel momento in cui la macchina può surrogare alcune decisioni umane, questo spazio di etica, computabile dalla macchina, algoretica, dovrebbe funzionare come una sorta di grande guard rail, come qualcosa che tiene la macchina all'interno di questa strada, all'interno di questo sentiero. Non è un'etica normativa, fai questo e non fare quell'altro, ma è una di quelle forme dell'etica, le più antiche, come diceva Aristotele, probabilmente anche più legata all'etica delle virtù. Se noi dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale giusta e una ingiusta, quale vorremmo? Se dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale equa e una non equa, tra un intelligenza artificiale inclusiva e una non inclusiva. Ecco l'algoretica cerca di fornire degli strumenti computazionali che in qualche misura mitighino e guidino la macchina verso I fini che noi vogliamo. Grazie, questo è un argomento che in qualche modo in questa fase sta cercando di regolamentare in particolare l'Unione Europea. Noi in questa fase c'è una proposta di regolamento e vediamo come l'Unione Europea cerca di trovare una specie di terza via fra gli Stati Uniti dove finora c'è stata una certa libertà di ricerca e di sviluppo soprattutto tecnologico soprattutto perché non riescono a trovare un accordo su come regolamentarlo, un accordo politico e quindi questo è stato anche un grande vantaggio per le aziende che hanno potuto avere davanti un'ampia libertà di ricerca e di sperimentazione. E poi c'è il modello cinese che invece è ultra regolamentato e più che altro è lo stato che decide da un giorno all'altro quello che deve succedere, cosa si può fare, chi possiamo controllare, quali macchine possiamo adottare per controllare la popolazione, per il riconoscimento facciale, per il social credit eccetera. Quindi come facciamo in Europa a trovare una via di mezzo per non interrompere il processo di ricerca e di sviluppo di una tecnologia che comunque è probabilmente il nostro futuro e però allo stesso tempo non esagerare nel liberare delle tecniche e delle modalità di uso dell'intelligenza artificiale che possono essere anche pericolose, rischiose. Bene, cominciamo dal dire che non esiste una tecnologia neutrale. Quando abbiamo chiaramente inventato la clava 60000 anni fa il primo uomo che l' presa in mano si sarà chiesto se quella era un'arma o era un utensile. Bene, al di là di questi semplici artefatti che sono direttamente legati alla nostra mano quando la tecnologia è diventata infrastruttura, ecco l'infrastruttura inocula dentro questo suo disporsi qualcosa che è anche connesso e legato a una visione del mondo, quindi a una visione politica. Un esempio è quando abbiamo creato l'infrastruttura elettrica. Con l'infrastruttura della rete elettrica noi conosciamo almeno 2 modelli di distribuzione, uno fatto da Samuel Linsul, fondatore della General Electric Company, che seguiva quella modalità americana di chiamare un qualcosa democratizzato, democratizing, se era disponibile per tutti sul mercato. Quindi abbassiamo I costi, le famiglie possono comprare elettricità, l'elettricità si diffonde. Ma se noi andiamo in Unione Sovietica, troviamo che il primo piano quinquennale di Lenin, il Goelro, prevede la sovietizzazione delle repubbliche socialiste mediante la diffusione dell'energia elettrica. Quindi l'infrastruttura è sempre una forma d'ordine, è sempre una disposizione di potere. E qui arriviamo a 2 modalità che oggi stanno ai 2 estremi, anche geografici, rispetto all'Europa. Da una parte l'idea che il singolo e la libertà del singolo sia liberamente disponibile per far tutto, dall'altra l'idea che invece una centralizzazione aumenti l'efficienza e aumenti l'efficacia. Se mi posso permettere una piccola critica, un modello troppo liberista, noi abbiamo visto, e questo dobbiamo dire grazie anche al coraggio femminile nell'anno del Me Too, che forse abbiamo un problema sul consenso. Quando un uomo pensa che un sì di una donna sia un sì a qualsiasi cosa, questo crea un grande problema sociale Tanti gruppi ci stanno dicendo che un modello di lavorazione dei dati della Silicon Valley è un po' macchiato di quel modello di consenso un po' maschilista, no? Faccio clic una volta su consenso e poi sui miei dati puoi fare quello che vuoi. Ecco, quella libertà di quel tipo per noi europei suona troppo di potere non bilanciato. Cioè qualcuno che molto più potere di te non può abusare di te, in qualsiasi modo lui voglia. Di contro, la società dell'informazione e del controllo, dove il consenso neanche c'è, alla fine paradossalmente arriva agli stessi esiti, ma con un controllore centrale che non è detto che risponda a quei valori per I quali abbiamo versato così tanto sangue nell'Europa moderna, che sono I valori di legittimazione della cosa pubblica e dello stato sociale. E allora come fare? Ecco, una via che noi stiamo percorrendo è questa della regolamentazione che procede in 2 direzioni: da una parte riconoscere che non tutte le infrastrutture hanno la stessa pericolosità. E' chiaro che distribuire un sistema di riconoscimento video facciale un impatto molto diverso dall'utilizzare, per esempio, un sistema di qualità video nella produzione dei bottoni all'interno di una fabbrica, di una press. Quindi dire che non tutto è uguale è un livello di riflessione, di tempo e di spazio pubblico di riflessione tipico della tradizione europea, che da almeno 800, 900000 anni conosce la grande tradizione delle universitas, cioè dove diversi saperi si confronta. Dall'altra è sfruttare il fatto che tra Europa e Gran Bretagna si crea un grande corridoio commerciale, il famoso blu banana. Banana perché una forma un po' a banana, blu perché è il colore dell'Europa e quel grande corridoio commerciale, che è il più grande corridoio di scambio che esiste al mondo, un potere sul mercato globale. Ecco, in fondo a produttori di massa che non sempre stanno accorti alla qualità come produttori cinesi abbiamo imposto un marchio di qualità e ugualmente all'America rispetto alla produzione di altri servizi. Riusciremo anche a farlo con l'intelligenza artificiale? Ecco, la sfida è aperta. Per certi elementi io sono molto ottimista. Rispetto ad altri effetti e al non è detto che riusciamo a vedere tutto prima in anticipo, questo mi fa essere un po' più pessimista. Però un dispositivo regolamentativo non è detto che sia scritto sulle tavole di pietra, se mi consentite di fare questo gioco di parole. E quindi però è un primo tentativo che dice al mondo il cittadino, l'uomo deve stare al centro. Ecco questo discorso dell'uomo al centro per esempio si trova nelle applicazioni dell'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia penale. Abbiamo avuto recentemente in Cina proprio un esperimento in cui c'era una specie di AI Prosecutor che stabiliva se una condotta era illecita con fondamentalmente un algoritmo. Come si può effettivamente conciliare I diritti fondamentali con l'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia? Perché da una parte c'è anche chi dice beh un giudice che è una macchina la mattina del mio processo non è stato nel traffico, non litigato con I figli, non un bias contro di me perché a meno che non ce l'abbia chi quella macchina diciamo l' costruita e chi quei principi li cercato di mettere nella macchina. Però tendenzialmente magari non un problema con una certa etnia, non un problema con una certa nazionalità, quindi per certi versi una giustizia fatta dall'intelligenza artificiale potrebbe essere più equa perché in teoria la stessa condotta si risponde con la stessa condanna eventuale o con l'assoluzione. Ma come come le si fa a capire qual è il limite di un'automatizzazione della giustizia? Allora, questa è una domanda complessissima e io la spacchetterei, mettiamola così, su 3 livelli. Allora, un primo livello è un livello che riguarda una sfida fondamentale che accade oggi. La sfida fondamentale che accade oggi è tra l'uomo e la macchina. Stiamo in qualche misura perdendo, di fronte a macchine così capacitive, così potenti la capacità di dire qual è l'uomo. Se Grozio all'inizio dell'età moderna ragionava nell'etica Ut si deus non dartor oggi nelle stesse decisioni stiamo ragionando un pochino cioè come se l'uomo che cos'è che ci fa uomini in qualche misura ci stesse sfuggendo. Ed ecco che nascono tutta una serie di critiche molto efficientiste tanto dalla Silicon Valley tanto dal modello cinese sulla qualità del giudizio umano cioè ci viene detto questa cosa che voi prendevate appunto di riferimento che è l'uomo e il suo decidere non è detto che sia così performante Daniel Kahnema, premio Nobel per la psicologia ci detto, nella sua psicologia cognitiva, ci detto che di fatto ragioniamo su pensieri lenti e pensieri veloci. Dati alla mano, in Israele, un giudice dà condanne molto meno severe dopo che fatto la pausa caffè, mentre dà condanne molto più pesanti quando bisogno del caffè. Quindi questo ci potrebbe portare a dire che in fondo l'uomo è imperfetto. Il medico che salva così tante vite, mediamente nel mondo non è così efficiente. Ma questa è un'efficienza quantitativa e non qualitativa. Se noi guardiamo alla storia dell'uomo, in particolare nell'ambito della giustizia, chi può giudicare un altro uomo? Questa è una domanda che attraversato la riflessione umana per tanti secoli. E mai ci siamo detti che quella persona poteva fare il giudice perché il suo giudizio sarebbe stato sempre perfetto fino in fondo. Ma quella persona qualitativamente impiegato se stessa nei confronti di un mestiere con un commitment, con un impegno che durava tutta la vita. Il medico, il giudice, il prete erano persone che si dedicavano tutta la vita a fare del loro meglio per fare qualcosa. Ecco, questa qualità non è una quantità. Diremmo con le parole di non è un problema computabile. Il secondo livello di questa domanda riguarda invece la qualità della macchina. E' chiaro, un calcolo 3 più 2 uguale a 5. Ma un giudizio su un comportamento, un giudizio penale o un giudizio anche penale connessa all'etica non avviene solo su valori numerici ma avviene su valori che sono valori etici, costituzionali e quant'altro che non sono semplicemente esprimibili in quantità numeriche e di fronte a questa potenza della macchina c'è qualcuno che crede più affidabile alla macchina che non l'umano Da una parte stiamo depotenziando l'umano, dall'altra stiamo in qualche misura idolizzando o idealizzando la macchina. In realtà, una serie di elementi che sempre di più compaiono sotto I nostri occhi ci dicono che il giudizio della macchina è tutt'altro che perfetto. Anche la macchina commette degli errori sistematici chiamati bias in inglese, li potremmo tradurre per giudizi, preferisco errore sistematico, non voglio dare l'idea che qualcuno apposta fatto quella cosa. Che però sono inevitabili quando si lavora sui dati. Proviamo a fare un esempio. Se io raccogliessi tutti I voti di tutti gli elettori dalla prima elezione del Presidente degli Stati Uniti ad oggi, cioè avessi un dataset di ogni voto espresso negli Stati Uniti e avessi un algoritmo di machine learning perfetto e dessi quei dati all'algoritmo, improvvisamente potrei chiedere all'algoritmo chi sarà il prossimo Presidente degli Stati Uniti. Mi direbbe quasi certamente un uomo, un po' meno certamente caucasico, un po' ancora meno certamente di circa sessant'anni. Perché non mi dice una donna? Semplicemente perché nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata. E allora l'idea che nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata produce un errore sistematico non voluto, ma comunque difficile da gestire. Anche la macchina sbaglia come l'uomo. Quindi questa superiorità qualitativa non c'è. E cosa accade però? Un motto degli ingegneri, lo dico in inglese, poi lo traduco, è: Think twice cat ones. Misura 2 volte, poi taglia, perché una volta che hai tagliato, hai tagliato. C'è un principio di precauzione. Quindi anche il giudice di Kahneman, che è più severo quando bisogno del caffè, prima o poi si stanca. Un algoritmo non si stanca mai. Ecco che gli effetti di questi errori sistematici applicati a una macchina che continuamente fa questi calcoli senza fermarsi, potrebbero produrre una sorta di tsunami di ingiustizia sociale capace veramente di creare degli effetti notevolissimi e profondamente ingiusti Arriviamo a un terzo livello della domanda Ma questo quindi è vero in assoluto? Ecco, dipende dall'applicazione, dipende dalla circostanza. Supponiamo di dover parlare di cure mediche in un ambiente rurale con basso tasso di medici specializzati. E' chiaro che io difficilmente trovo un oculista specializzato in una retinopatia, in un territorio molto vasto, magari in un territorio più disagiato o povero. E quindi è molto probabile che lì io non abbia per niente una diagnosi fatta da un uomo Posso utilizzare in quella circostanza un algoritmo di intelligenza artificiale con uno smartphone? Ecco, magari qualcosa in più me la dà rispetto a niente ed ecco quindi che se filosoficamente ci colpisce tanto questo desiderio di surrogare il giudizio umano imponderabile con un giudizio macchinico ingiustificabile dall'altra dobbiamo riconoscere che per alcune circostanze estreme che ci troviamo a vivere sul pianeta non è detto che questo non possa dare una mano Questo è molto diverso da dire che mettiamo sullo stesso livello macchina e uomo Insomma una sostituzione che si basa solo sulla necessità eventuale e comunque quando parlavi della questione dello tsunami di ingiustizia il problema poi effettivamente è che quando tu decidi di conferire quel potere alla macchina poi è molto difficile tornare indietro perché allora come fai a dire perché poi che fai fai un appello, permetti di fare appello a tutti quelli che sono stati condannati prima dell'aggiornamento dell'algoritmo, perché poi se aggiorni l'algoritmo ex post potresti che quello che succede ogni tanto con dei giudici che si scopre essere corrotti dopo, allora chi è stato condannato quel giudice magari può fare può può fare riaprire il suo processo. Allora che succede se poi l'algoritmo va aggiornato? E il tema è che quando io condanno un giudice per corruzione, c'ho la causa del giudizio errato. Una macchina, e una macchina che noi utilizziamo per fare tutto questo, è opaca, non una causalità Se io aprissi idealisticamente il cofano di questa macchina, quello che troverei dentro sono solo numeri che forniscono spiegazioni subsimboche, cioè non forniscono una causalità. La causalità era una di quelle C che non riuscivamo a calcolare. E allora, se io domani dovessi avere che I giudizi di condanna sono sbilanciati del 7.8910 por 100 su una minoranza etnica, non saprò mai se è perché il giudice digitale fa un errore sistematico o se è perché veramente c'è un'eccedenza di reati in quel gruppo etnico. Ecco, questo ancora peggiore, perché non riuscirei mai a trovare la causa di questo probabile errore sistematico. Chiaramente su un tema così delicato, dove il mio crimine qualcosa che merita o non merita una punizione, non può essere affidato a un calcolo statistico, a un tiro di dati. Ora ti leggerò un estratto di un libro che è uscito da poco, firmato da Henry Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, che è stato CEO di Google per molti anni, e da Daniel Hotten Locker che è Dean dell'MIT Schwarzmann College of Computing e in questo libro sull'intelligenza artificiale loro dicono: gli scienziati e I manager che sviluppano la tecnologia, gli strateghi militari che vogliono impiegarla, I leader politici che vogliono plasmarla, e I filosofi e I teologi che ne studiano I significati più profondi vedono solo dei pezzi del quadro completo. Cioè loro dicono nell'intelligenza artificiale ci sono tanti soggetti coinvolti e non per forza persone che abbiano una visione completa della faccenda. Tu puoi dire di coprire 2 categorie cioè quella filosofico, teologica e anche quella scientifica visti I tuoi studi in ingegneria e il tuo insomma interesse per il lato scientifico matematico e tecnologico Ma esistono dei forum, dei posti in cui si parla e questi soggetti si trovano insieme ognuno porta la sua diciamo visione, come dico tunnel vision, cioè la sua visione specifica, e per cercare di aprire il campo visivo anche a quello che non entra nelle competenze di ciascuno. Dunque, ci sono in maniera informale, io stesso ho partecipato a un paio di forum, di incontri anche con Eric Schmitt, c'era pure Peter Thiel, ce n'erano diversi di questi, come alto livello. Poi per il resto noi ci troviamo di fronte a un'istituzione accademica che è ancora molto moderna, cioè ancora molto in container verticali abbastanza rigidi. Ma già come un fenomeno come TED ci mostrato, ecco l'idea di container rigidi lungamente estesi nel tempo stride con la grande ridefinizione delle competenze e delle conoscenze che accade oggi e quindi c'è bisogno di una cosa nuova che si chiama la contaminazione abbiamo bisogno di contaminare I saperi l'uno con l'altro Abbiamo bisogno sostanzialmente di ricreare quella piazza che era all'interno della polis greca, che è la matrice del nostro occidente. Forse proprio noi, come occidentali, quando abbiamo perso l'idea della piazza a favore dell'idea della via, della via che ci porta dritti a una destinazione, abbiamo perso qualcosa di noi. Ma se vogliamo vivere tutto questo secondo quella matrice più autentica, che è la matrice democratica, che è la matrice di gestione della grande potenza delle grandi risorse che tutto questo ci dà, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare democrazia, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare piazza, abbiamo bisogno di tornare ad ascoltarci. Ecco, questo ascoltarci con competenze diverse, questo spazio vuoto che in realtà ci arricchisce, che non serve a qualcosa, ma che è pieno di senso, è forse una cosa che abbiamo un po' perso, e ricreare spazi come questi, e non sappiamo ancora bene dove costruire queste piazze, è forse l'urgenza più grande per darci la capacità di vivere quel futuro che in fondo desideriamo vivere. L'ultima domanda, chiediamo ai nostri ospiti per l'ultima domanda di consigliarci qualcuno da leggere, da seguire, una persona, un'istituzione, una testata, qualche contenuto che valga la pena seguire e che il nostro ospite considera importante nei temi di cui si occupa? Beh, senz'altro ne suggerisco 2, esagero un pochino. Una cosa è un testo che ho scritto che si chiama Human in the loop, che cerca di essere un po' un unicum in questa voce, nel senso che cerca di dare uno spazio dell'umano per intercettare la tecnologia. È un testo di Mondadori, c'è una prefazione addirittura di Giuliano Amato, quindi per dire che anche la Costituzione, cioè l'ordine democratico, cerca di interrogarsi su come la tecnologia cambi le relazioni tra di noi. E questo amplifica più o meno tutte le cose che ci siamo detti da Kahneman fino alla democrazia. La seconda questione è invece un forum molto, come dire, bottom up, nasce dal basso, è un forum di persone che si interrogano sul significato di questi cambiamenti. È un forum che appartiene a una rivista un po' storica che si chiama Alt 2006. È una rivista dei primi hacker bianchi, di coloro che cercavano di modificare la tecnologia per capirne il senso. Ancora molto attivo e si trovano un sacco di buoni suggerimenti su quello che sta accadendo in questo mondo tecnologicamente ben spiegato e quali potrebbero essere gli effetti sulla capacità di poter vivere ancora in uno stato democratico come quello che vogliamo avere noi. Grazie, grazie a Paolo Benanti per essere stato con noi. Grazie a voi. 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Questa frase è dell'ospite di questa nuova puntata di Tecnopolicy, ma andiamo con ordine. Così come l'elettricità nel ventesimo secolo intelligenza artificiale la capacità di animare I prodotti e le comunicazioni dotando ogni cosa dai veicoli alle telecamere alle armi della capacità di interagire con il mondo che li circonda ma anche tra loro. Il termine intelligenza artificiale è stato coniato nel 1956, da allora ci sono stati molti alti e bassi nello sviluppo di questa tecnologia, ma quello che è cambiato nell'ultimo decennio è la grande quantità di dati prodotti ogni giorno e l'immensa potenza di calcolo a disposizione di aziende e governi di tutto il mondo. I dati sono infatti il carburante del machine learning che a sua volta è l'elemento base dell'intelligenza artificiale.\n\nQuesta tecnologia si nutre di algoritmi e funziona grazie a lunghe sequenze di codici che determinano come la macchina reagirà. Attraverso queste scatole nere, rigorosamente coperte da copyright, è possibile dotare le intelligenze artificiali di qualità di calcolo che permettono di compiere operazioni complesse in pochissimo tempo, surrogando caratteristiche tipicamente esclusive del ragionamento umano. Insomma creare intelligenze artificiali capaci di avvicinare sempre di più il modo di pensare di una macchina a quello umano è probabilmente una delle sfide più impegnative che attendono l'uomo nei prossimi anni. Ma parlare di algoritmi, intelligenze artificiali e uomo solleva ancora tanti dubbi che attengono soprattutto alla sfera dell'etica e della fiducia, animando un dibattito che si\n\nSpeaker 1: muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano\n\nSpeaker 0: e responsabilità di chi crea l'arte. Che si muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano e responsabilità di chi crea l'artificiale, una discussione che investe la regolamentazione giuridica, I principi etici e I meccanismi di funzionamento delle macchine.\n\nSpeaker 1: A oggi non esiste una regolazione complessiva e\n\nSpeaker 0: organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il regolazione complessiva e organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il vuoto è spesso colmato con il richiamo ad altre norme. D'altronde il fenomeno dell'intelligenza artificiale è nella sua percezione da parte dei legislatori così nuovo e dinamico da non consentire neanche una sua definizione condivisa né una piena consapevolezza delle sue potenzialità e dei suoi rischi. Solo nell'ultimo periodo I governi, in particolare quelli occidentali, si sono concretamente posti il problema delle tecniche predittive, del controllo sociale, del profiling, della manipolazione delle notizie, dei pregiudizi e delle discriminazioni determinate dagli algoritmi. Nel frattempo a Bruxelles, a più di un anno dalla pubblicazione di libro bianco, si sta muovendo qualcosa e I primi passi si muovono verso una regolamentazione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale, uno degli obiettivi dichiarati dalla presidente Ursula von der Leyen al suo insediamento. Ma non è tutto.\n\nIn occasione dei lavori del Trade and Technology Council, Unione Europea e Stati Uniti hanno annunciato la volontà di intensificare la collaborazione transatlantica sulle tecnologie emergenti e specie sull'intelligenza artificiale e di vigilare sull'invio di prodotti Dual use che possono avere impieghi militari e civili. Il tutto per contrastare l'avanzata tecnologica del Cremlino nel conflitto russo-ucraina. In un mondo fatto di uomini che utilizzano algoritmi per accedere ai servizi negli ambiti più disparati e macchine che grazie agli algoritmi diventano capaci di provare sentimenti, ci avviamo verso un futuro di replicanti in stile Blade Runner? Quali sono I vantaggi strategici che può comportare l'uso dell'intelligenza artificiale nel confronto internazionale? Quali sono I rischi?\n\nPer rispondere a queste altre domande l'ospite di tecnopolicy è padre Paolo Benanti professore di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia\n\nSpeaker 1: Università Gregoriana. Oggi diamo il benvenuto a padre Paolo Benanti, che è professore di teologia\n\nSpeaker 0: morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università. Di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università Gregoriana. Salve e ben trovati. Benvenuto, grazie di essere con noi. Allora, in questo podcast noi partiamo sempre da una domanda che scarichiamo sul nostro ospite, per comodità anche dell'intervistatore, ed è quella di presentarsi, cioè di raccontare il proprio percorso professionale umano e di come oggi si sia arrivati a questo punto.\n\nCome è arrivato Paolo Benanti ad oggi?\n\nSpeaker 1: Diciamo che la storia di ciascuno di noi è fatta di incontri, di casualità e di occasioni. Io ero uno dei tanti ragazzi di Roma degli anni 90 che pensava che il suo futuro fosse quello di finire gli studi e poi cercare uno dei tanti possibili impieghi sul mercato del lavoro. Stavo studiando ingegneria, però mentre facevo ingegneria, profeticamente un professore di filosofia del liceo aveva visto in me qualcosa che io magari non avevo visto quando gli avevo detto che preferivo la tecnica alla filosofia. Lui mi aveva detto: Beh, preferirei far carriera che non capire la realtà. Ecco, a un certo punto, mentre stavo verso il quarto anno di ingegneria, mi sono reso conto che l'ingegneria era potentissima, ma mi dava un buono schema per approssimare la realtà.\n\nDesideravo qualcosa di più. Non me lo sono sinceramente andato a cercare, però, come tante volte accade, all'epoca avevo una storia con una ragazza, questa ragazza mi fatto incontrare I frati e un giorno, durante un incontro, ho visto in quella forma di vita, in quella possibilità di poter cercare il senso delle cose per tutta la mia vita un qualcosa che mi piaceva tantissimo Da lì è partito un percorso che mi portato prima a studiare filosofia, poi teologia e finito il percorso teologico ho fatto una specializzazione in etica Dopo la specializzazione in etica sostanzialmente ho preso una borsa di studio per Georgestown, dove mi hanno invitato a fare un dottorato, o parte di un dottorato, perché poi per motivi ecclesiali il titolo mi serviva che fosse di un'Università pontificia, sull'intersezione tra umano, tecnologia e quant'altro. E lì ho potuto recuperare in questo percorso di studi tanto gli studi tecnici quanto gli studi etici e filosofici. E così è venuto fuori questo Pitch D, questo dottorato sull'intersezione tra umano e macchina e sulle sfide tra umano e macchina e dentro questo dottorato c'erano 3 sfide, erano 3 gli ambiti tecnologici che andavo a indagare. Uno era quello delle nanotecnologie, uno era quello delle biotecnologie cognitive e uno era quello dell'intelligenza artificiale.\n\nEra il 2009 e all'epoca pensavo che fossero le neurotecnologie dell'enancement, quelle che più promettevano un impatto forte. Era partita la primavera delle intelligenze artificiali, è tornato in Italia, quello è stato un po' il grande cammino di approfondimento.\n\nSpeaker 0: Nel frattempo uno dei temi che tratti con più attenzione è quello dell'argoretica, cioè quali principi si possono applicare agli algoritmi, come insegnare a questi algoritmi a seguire dei principi e dei valori che noi consideriamo fondamentali e quindi come fanno le macchine a capire quello che noi abbiamo messo qualche migliaio di anni a sviluppare come principi, valori e cardini del nostro agire come esseri umani?\n\nSpeaker 1: Dunque, noi abbiamo visto un profondo momento di trasmutazione profonda del nostro vivere con la rivoluzione industriale, quando una macchina improvvisamente è riuscita a prendere il posto del nostro muscolo, della nostra forza muscolare. A partire dagli anni 'cinquanta dello scorso secolo, abbiamo iniziato a pensare di potere, grazie alla computazione, a questa forza che di fatto le macchine calcolatrici ci davano, diventati poi computer, di poter far prendere alla macchina anche un'altra funzione umana, che è quella della cognizione. Le tecnologie cosiddette intelligenti nascono come un'evoluzione che però rischia di fare un'ulteriore rivoluzione industriale, questa volta dagli effetti molto più deflagranti e globali. Tutto questo si gioca attorno a un fattore chiave che è la computazione. Uno dei padri di questo mondo, Alan Turing, contemporaneamente a un altro studioso che si chiama Church, formulano indipendentemente ma connessi quello che è un po' il postulato dei Church Touring.\n\nIl postulato è questo: qualsiasi operazione computabile, indipendentemente dal substrato che lo computa, prima o poi potrà essere computata analogamente da un'altra macchina. E quindi, se l'intelligenza è qualcosa di calcolabile, prima o poi qualcosa di non biologico potrà in qualche misura calcolarlo nella stessa maniera. Quello che negli anni 50 era un sogno oggi lo vediamo con Alpha Fold, con Deepmind, con GPT-tre sempre più vicino. Ecco, ma questa trasformazione è veramente analoga all'essere umano? Ecco, se mi permettete di giocare un po' con le parole, la computazione inizia con la lettera C, ecco, ci sono almeno altre C che poi dopo 50-settanta anni ci siamo resi conto che non sono computabili.\n\nUno è il corpo, perché c'è il cosiddetto paradosso di Moravec, per cui un'intelligenza artificiale riesce a fare molto bene un compito cognitivo alto, il logaritmo di 12, e riesce a fare molto meno bene un compito cognitivo basso, come aprire la maniglia di una porta. Per cui una calcolatrice che fa un logaritmo la compro a pochi dollari o a pochi centesimi, anche su una piattaforma di e-commerce. Una mano robotica che apre la maniglia, ecco, mi serve un grande istituto italiano di tecnologia e costa centinaia di migliaia di euro. Mentre un bambino, a 5 anni, apre la maniglia di casa e se ne va a giocare, per fare il logaritmo deve arrivare alle superiori. La corporeità e il dono che la corporeità ci fa come intelligenza e intelligenza motoria non si computa.\n\nL'altra cosa è la coscienza. Ecco, il paradigma di Church Turing è connesso a un fattore, un problema è computabile, sto semplificando molto, se conosce un suo termine, qualcosa che a che fare con un interrupt. Ecco, la nostra coscienza, se un interrupt, gli succede qualcosa di molto brutto che si chiama morte. Quindi la coscienza non è un problema Turing computabile. Corpo, coscienza, ma c'è un'altra cosa che le macchine non ci riescono a dire, sempre con la C, la causalità.\n\nEcco, noi possiamo prendere qualcosa che è correlativo, Si aprono gli ombrelli, quindi piove, l'accelerometro del mio telefonino dice che sto rallentando, quindi c'è traffico. Ma perché c'è traffico? Non lo riusciamo a dire. E quindi la causazione è ancora qualcosa che di fatto appartiene solo all'umano. Ecco, questi fattori non computabili ci dicono che c'è uno spazio umano di differenza qualitativa rispetto alla macchina.\n\nChe cos'è l'algoretica? E' cercare di scrivere un nuovo capitolo di questo spazio umano e solo umano che è l'etica, non è animale perché gli animali hanno gli istinti, non è delle macchine perché le macchine hanno la progettazione E questa volta, nel momento in cui la macchina può surrogare alcune decisioni umane, questo spazio di etica, computabile dalla macchina, algoretica, dovrebbe funzionare come una sorta di grande guard rail, come qualcosa che tiene la macchina all'interno di questa strada, all'interno di questo sentiero. Non è un'etica normativa, fai questo e non fare quell'altro, ma è una di quelle forme dell'etica, le più antiche, come diceva Aristotele, probabilmente anche più legata all'etica delle virtù. Se noi dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale giusta e una ingiusta, quale vorremmo? Se dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale equa e una non equa, tra un intelligenza artificiale inclusiva e una non inclusiva.\n\nEcco l'algoretica cerca di fornire degli strumenti computazionali che in qualche misura mitighino e guidino la macchina verso I fini che noi vogliamo.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie, questo è un argomento che in qualche modo in questa fase sta cercando di regolamentare in particolare l'Unione Europea. Noi in questa fase c'è una proposta di regolamento e vediamo come l'Unione Europea cerca di trovare una specie di terza via fra gli Stati Uniti dove finora c'è stata una certa libertà di ricerca e di sviluppo soprattutto tecnologico soprattutto perché non riescono a trovare un accordo su come regolamentarlo, un accordo politico e quindi questo è stato anche un grande vantaggio per le aziende che hanno potuto avere davanti un'ampia libertà di ricerca e di sperimentazione. E poi c'è il modello cinese che invece è ultra regolamentato e più che altro è lo stato che decide da un giorno all'altro quello che deve succedere, cosa si può fare, chi possiamo controllare, quali macchine possiamo adottare per controllare la popolazione, per il riconoscimento facciale, per il social credit eccetera. Quindi come facciamo in Europa a trovare una via di mezzo per non interrompere il processo di ricerca e di sviluppo di una tecnologia che comunque è probabilmente il nostro futuro e però allo stesso tempo non esagerare nel liberare delle tecniche e delle modalità di uso dell'intelligenza artificiale che possono essere anche pericolose, rischiose.\n\nBene, cominciamo dal dire\n\nSpeaker 1: che non esiste una tecnologia neutrale. Quando abbiamo chiaramente inventato la clava 60000 anni fa il primo uomo che l' presa in mano si sarà chiesto se quella era un'arma o era un utensile. Bene, al di là di questi semplici artefatti che sono direttamente legati alla nostra mano quando la tecnologia è diventata infrastruttura, ecco l'infrastruttura inocula dentro questo suo disporsi qualcosa che è anche connesso e legato a una visione del mondo, quindi a una visione politica. Un esempio è quando abbiamo creato l'infrastruttura elettrica. Con l'infrastruttura della rete elettrica noi conosciamo almeno 2 modelli di distribuzione, uno fatto da Samuel Linsul, fondatore della General Electric Company, che seguiva quella modalità americana di chiamare un qualcosa democratizzato, democratizing, se era disponibile per tutti sul mercato.\n\nQuindi abbassiamo I costi, le famiglie possono comprare elettricità, l'elettricità si diffonde. Ma se noi andiamo in Unione Sovietica, troviamo che il primo piano quinquennale di Lenin, il Goelro, prevede la sovietizzazione delle repubbliche socialiste mediante la diffusione dell'energia elettrica. Quindi l'infrastruttura è sempre una forma d'ordine, è sempre una disposizione di potere. E qui arriviamo a 2 modalità che oggi stanno ai 2 estremi, anche geografici, rispetto all'Europa. Da una parte l'idea che il singolo e la libertà del singolo sia liberamente disponibile per far tutto, dall'altra l'idea che invece una centralizzazione aumenti l'efficienza e aumenti l'efficacia.\n\nSe mi posso permettere una piccola critica, un modello troppo liberista, noi abbiamo visto, e questo dobbiamo dire grazie anche al coraggio femminile nell'anno del Me Too, che forse abbiamo un problema sul consenso. Quando un uomo pensa che un sì di una donna sia un sì a qualsiasi cosa, questo crea un grande problema sociale Tanti gruppi ci stanno dicendo che un modello di lavorazione dei dati della Silicon Valley è un po' macchiato di quel modello di consenso un po' maschilista, no? Faccio clic una volta su consenso e poi sui miei dati puoi fare quello che vuoi. Ecco, quella libertà di quel tipo per noi europei suona troppo di potere non bilanciato. Cioè qualcuno che molto più potere di te non può abusare di te, in qualsiasi modo lui voglia.\n\nDi contro, la società dell'informazione e del controllo, dove il consenso neanche c'è, alla fine paradossalmente arriva agli stessi esiti, ma con un controllore centrale che non è detto che risponda a quei valori per I quali abbiamo versato così tanto sangue nell'Europa moderna, che sono I valori di legittimazione della cosa pubblica e dello stato sociale. E allora come fare? Ecco, una via che noi stiamo percorrendo è questa della regolamentazione che procede in 2 direzioni: da una parte riconoscere che non tutte le infrastrutture hanno la stessa pericolosità. E' chiaro che distribuire un sistema di riconoscimento video facciale un impatto molto diverso dall'utilizzare, per esempio, un sistema di qualità video nella produzione dei bottoni all'interno di una fabbrica, di una press. Quindi dire che non tutto è uguale è un livello di riflessione, di tempo e di spazio pubblico di riflessione tipico della tradizione europea, che da almeno 800, 900000 anni conosce la grande tradizione delle universitas, cioè dove diversi saperi si confronta.\n\nDall'altra è sfruttare il fatto che tra Europa e Gran Bretagna si crea un grande corridoio commerciale, il famoso blu banana. Banana perché una forma un po' a banana, blu perché è il colore dell'Europa e quel grande corridoio commerciale, che è il più grande corridoio di scambio che esiste al mondo, un potere sul mercato globale. Ecco, in fondo a produttori di massa che non sempre stanno accorti alla qualità come produttori cinesi abbiamo imposto un marchio di qualità e ugualmente all'America rispetto alla produzione di altri servizi. Riusciremo anche a farlo con l'intelligenza artificiale? Ecco, la sfida è aperta.\n\nPer certi elementi io sono molto ottimista. Rispetto ad altri effetti e al non è detto che riusciamo a vedere tutto prima in anticipo, questo mi fa essere un po' più pessimista. Però un dispositivo regolamentativo non è detto che sia scritto sulle tavole di pietra, se mi consentite di fare questo gioco di parole. E quindi però è un primo tentativo che dice al mondo il cittadino, l'uomo deve stare al centro.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ecco questo discorso dell'uomo al centro per esempio si trova nelle applicazioni dell'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia penale. Abbiamo avuto recentemente in Cina proprio un esperimento in cui c'era una specie di AI Prosecutor che stabiliva se una condotta era illecita con fondamentalmente un algoritmo. Come si può effettivamente conciliare I diritti fondamentali con l'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia? Perché da una parte c'è anche chi dice beh un giudice che è una macchina la mattina del mio processo non è stato nel traffico, non litigato con I figli, non un bias contro di me perché a meno che non ce l'abbia chi quella macchina diciamo l' costruita e chi quei principi li cercato di mettere nella macchina. Però tendenzialmente magari non un problema con una certa etnia, non un problema con una certa nazionalità, quindi per certi versi una giustizia fatta dall'intelligenza artificiale potrebbe essere più equa perché in teoria la stessa condotta si risponde con la stessa condanna eventuale o con l'assoluzione.\n\nMa come come le si fa a capire qual è il limite di un'automatizzazione della giustizia?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora, questa è una domanda complessissima e io la spacchetterei, mettiamola così, su 3 livelli. Allora, un primo livello è un livello che riguarda una sfida fondamentale che accade oggi. La sfida fondamentale che accade oggi è tra l'uomo e la macchina. Stiamo in qualche misura perdendo, di fronte a macchine così capacitive, così potenti la capacità di dire qual è l'uomo. Se Grozio all'inizio dell'età moderna ragionava nell'etica Ut si deus non dartor oggi nelle stesse decisioni stiamo ragionando un pochino cioè come se l'uomo che cos'è che ci fa uomini in qualche misura ci stesse sfuggendo.\n\nEd ecco che nascono tutta una serie di critiche molto efficientiste tanto dalla Silicon Valley tanto dal modello cinese sulla qualità del giudizio umano cioè ci viene detto questa cosa che voi prendevate appunto di riferimento che è l'uomo e il suo decidere non è detto che sia così performante Daniel Kahnema, premio Nobel per la psicologia ci detto, nella sua psicologia cognitiva, ci detto che di fatto ragioniamo su pensieri lenti e pensieri veloci. Dati alla mano, in Israele, un giudice dà condanne molto meno severe dopo che fatto la pausa caffè, mentre dà condanne molto più pesanti quando bisogno del caffè. Quindi questo ci potrebbe portare a dire che in fondo l'uomo è imperfetto. Il medico che salva così tante vite, mediamente nel mondo non è così efficiente. Ma questa è un'efficienza quantitativa e non qualitativa.\n\nSe noi guardiamo alla storia dell'uomo, in particolare nell'ambito della giustizia, chi può giudicare un altro uomo? Questa è una domanda che attraversato la riflessione umana per tanti secoli. E mai ci siamo detti che quella persona poteva fare il giudice perché il suo giudizio sarebbe stato sempre perfetto fino in fondo. Ma quella persona qualitativamente impiegato se stessa nei confronti di un mestiere con un commitment, con un impegno che durava tutta la vita. Il medico, il giudice, il prete erano persone che si dedicavano tutta la vita a fare del loro meglio per fare qualcosa.\n\nEcco, questa qualità non è una quantità. Diremmo con le parole di non è un problema computabile. Il secondo livello di questa domanda riguarda invece la qualità della macchina. E' chiaro, un calcolo 3 più 2 uguale a 5. Ma un giudizio su un comportamento, un giudizio penale o un giudizio anche penale connessa all'etica non avviene solo su valori numerici ma avviene su valori che sono valori etici, costituzionali e quant'altro che non sono semplicemente esprimibili in quantità numeriche e di fronte a questa potenza della macchina c'è qualcuno che crede più affidabile alla macchina che non l'umano Da una parte stiamo depotenziando l'umano, dall'altra stiamo in qualche misura idolizzando o idealizzando la macchina.\n\nIn realtà, una serie di elementi che sempre di più compaiono sotto I nostri occhi ci dicono che il giudizio della macchina è tutt'altro che perfetto. Anche la macchina commette degli errori sistematici chiamati bias in inglese, li potremmo tradurre per giudizi, preferisco errore sistematico, non voglio dare l'idea che qualcuno apposta fatto quella cosa. Che però sono inevitabili quando si lavora sui dati. Proviamo a fare un esempio. Se io raccogliessi tutti I voti di tutti gli elettori dalla prima elezione del Presidente degli Stati Uniti ad oggi, cioè avessi un dataset di ogni voto espresso negli Stati Uniti e avessi un algoritmo di machine learning perfetto e dessi quei dati all'algoritmo, improvvisamente potrei chiedere all'algoritmo chi sarà il prossimo Presidente degli Stati Uniti.\n\nMi direbbe quasi certamente un uomo, un po' meno certamente caucasico, un po' ancora meno certamente di circa sessant'anni. Perché non mi dice una donna? Semplicemente perché nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata. E allora l'idea che nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata produce un errore sistematico non voluto, ma comunque difficile da gestire. Anche la macchina sbaglia come l'uomo.\n\nQuindi questa superiorità qualitativa non c'è. E cosa accade però? Un motto degli ingegneri, lo dico in inglese, poi lo traduco, è: Think twice cat ones. Misura 2 volte, poi taglia, perché una volta che hai tagliato, hai tagliato. C'è un principio di precauzione.\n\nQuindi anche il giudice di Kahneman, che è più severo quando bisogno del caffè, prima o poi si stanca. Un algoritmo non si stanca mai. Ecco che gli effetti di questi errori sistematici applicati a una macchina che continuamente fa questi calcoli senza fermarsi, potrebbero produrre una sorta di tsunami di ingiustizia sociale capace veramente di creare degli effetti notevolissimi e profondamente ingiusti Arriviamo a un terzo livello della domanda Ma questo quindi è vero in assoluto? Ecco, dipende dall'applicazione, dipende dalla circostanza. Supponiamo di dover parlare di cure mediche in un ambiente rurale con basso tasso di medici specializzati.\n\nE' chiaro che io difficilmente trovo un oculista specializzato in una retinopatia, in un territorio molto vasto, magari in un territorio più disagiato o povero. E quindi è molto probabile che lì io non abbia per niente una diagnosi fatta da un uomo Posso utilizzare in quella circostanza un algoritmo di intelligenza artificiale con uno smartphone? Ecco, magari qualcosa in più me la dà rispetto a niente ed ecco quindi che se filosoficamente ci colpisce tanto questo desiderio di surrogare il giudizio umano imponderabile con un giudizio macchinico ingiustificabile dall'altra dobbiamo riconoscere che per alcune circostanze estreme che ci troviamo a vivere sul pianeta non è detto che questo non possa dare una mano Questo è molto diverso da dire che mettiamo sullo stesso livello macchina e uomo\n\nSpeaker 0: Insomma una sostituzione che si basa solo sulla necessità eventuale e comunque quando parlavi della questione dello tsunami di ingiustizia il problema poi effettivamente è che quando tu decidi di conferire quel potere alla macchina poi è molto difficile tornare indietro perché allora come fai a dire perché poi che fai fai un appello, permetti di fare appello a tutti quelli che sono stati condannati prima dell'aggiornamento dell'algoritmo, perché poi se aggiorni l'algoritmo ex post potresti che quello che succede ogni tanto con dei giudici che si scopre essere corrotti dopo, allora chi è stato condannato quel giudice magari può fare può può fare riaprire il suo processo. Allora che succede se poi l'algoritmo va aggiornato? E il tema è che quando io condanno un\n\nSpeaker 1: giudice per corruzione, c'ho la causa del giudizio errato. Una macchina, e una macchina che noi utilizziamo per fare tutto questo, è opaca, non una causalità Se io aprissi idealisticamente il cofano di questa macchina, quello che troverei dentro sono solo numeri che forniscono spiegazioni subsimboche, cioè non forniscono una causalità. La causalità era una di quelle C che non riuscivamo a calcolare. E allora, se io domani dovessi avere che I giudizi di condanna sono sbilanciati del 7.8910 por 100 su una minoranza etnica, non saprò mai se è perché il giudice digitale fa un errore sistematico o se è perché veramente c'è un'eccedenza di reati in quel gruppo etnico. Ecco, questo ancora peggiore, perché non riuscirei mai a trovare la causa di questo probabile errore sistematico.\n\nChiaramente su un tema così delicato, dove il mio crimine qualcosa che merita o non merita una punizione, non può essere affidato a un calcolo statistico, a un tiro di dati.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ora ti leggerò un estratto di un libro che è uscito da poco, firmato da Henry Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, che è stato CEO di Google per molti anni, e da Daniel Hotten Locker che è Dean dell'MIT Schwarzmann College of Computing e in questo libro sull'intelligenza artificiale loro dicono: gli scienziati e I manager che sviluppano la tecnologia, gli strateghi militari che vogliono impiegarla, I leader politici che vogliono plasmarla, e I filosofi e I teologi che ne studiano I significati più profondi vedono solo dei pezzi del quadro completo. Cioè loro dicono nell'intelligenza artificiale ci sono tanti soggetti coinvolti e non per forza persone che abbiano una visione completa della faccenda. Tu puoi dire di coprire 2 categorie cioè quella filosofico, teologica e anche quella scientifica visti I tuoi studi in ingegneria e il tuo insomma interesse per il lato scientifico matematico e tecnologico Ma esistono dei forum, dei posti in cui si parla e questi soggetti si trovano insieme ognuno porta la sua diciamo visione, come dico tunnel vision, cioè la sua visione specifica, e per cercare di aprire il campo visivo anche a quello che non entra nelle competenze di ciascuno.\n\nSpeaker 1: Dunque, ci sono in maniera informale, io stesso ho partecipato a un paio di forum, di incontri anche con Eric Schmitt, c'era pure Peter Thiel, ce n'erano diversi di questi, come alto livello. Poi per il resto noi ci troviamo di fronte a un'istituzione accademica che è ancora molto moderna, cioè ancora molto in container verticali abbastanza rigidi. Ma già come un fenomeno come TED ci mostrato, ecco l'idea di container rigidi lungamente estesi nel tempo stride con la grande ridefinizione delle competenze e delle conoscenze che accade oggi e quindi c'è bisogno di una cosa nuova che si chiama la contaminazione abbiamo bisogno di contaminare I saperi l'uno con l'altro Abbiamo bisogno sostanzialmente di ricreare quella piazza che era all'interno della polis greca, che è la matrice del nostro occidente. Forse proprio noi, come occidentali, quando abbiamo perso l'idea della piazza a favore dell'idea della via, della via che ci porta dritti a una destinazione, abbiamo perso qualcosa di noi. Ma se vogliamo vivere tutto questo secondo quella matrice più autentica, che è la matrice democratica, che è la matrice di gestione della grande potenza delle grandi risorse che tutto questo ci dà, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare democrazia, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare piazza, abbiamo bisogno di tornare ad ascoltarci.\n\nEcco, questo ascoltarci con competenze diverse, questo spazio vuoto che in realtà ci arricchisce, che non serve a qualcosa, ma che è pieno di senso, è forse una cosa che abbiamo un po' perso, e ricreare spazi come questi, e non sappiamo ancora bene dove costruire queste piazze, è forse l'urgenza più grande per darci la capacità di vivere quel futuro che in fondo desideriamo vivere.\n\nSpeaker 0: L'ultima domanda, chiediamo ai nostri ospiti per l'ultima domanda di consigliarci qualcuno da leggere, da seguire, una persona, un'istituzione, una testata, qualche contenuto che valga la pena seguire e che il nostro ospite considera importante nei temi di cui si occupa?\n\nSpeaker 1: Beh, senz'altro ne suggerisco 2, esagero un pochino. Una cosa è un testo che ho scritto che si chiama Human in the loop, che cerca di essere un po' un unicum in questa voce, nel senso che cerca di dare uno spazio dell'umano per intercettare la tecnologia. È un testo di Mondadori, c'è una prefazione addirittura di Giuliano Amato, quindi per dire che anche la Costituzione, cioè l'ordine democratico, cerca di interrogarsi su come la tecnologia cambi le relazioni tra di noi. E questo amplifica più o meno tutte le cose che ci siamo detti da Kahneman fino alla democrazia. La seconda questione è invece un forum molto, come dire, bottom up, nasce dal basso, è un forum di persone che si interrogano sul significato di questi cambiamenti.\n\nÈ un forum che appartiene a una rivista un po' storica che si chiama Alt 2006. È una rivista dei primi hacker bianchi, di coloro che cercavano di modificare la tecnologia per capirne il senso. Ancora molto attivo e si trovano un sacco di buoni suggerimenti su quello che sta accadendo in questo mondo tecnologicamente ben spiegato e quali potrebbero essere gli effetti sulla capacità di poter vivere ancora in uno stato democratico come quello che vogliamo avere noi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie, grazie a Paolo Benanti per essere stato con noi.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie a voi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo, registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "L'intelligenza artificiale non serve a fare una cosa nuova ma è una tecnologia che cambia il modo con cui facciamo tutte le cose.", "start": 9.84, "end": 16.654999 }, { "text": "Questa frase è dell'ospite di questa nuova puntata di Tecnopolicy, ma andiamo con ordine.", "start": 17.115, "end": 21.615 }, { "text": "Così come l'elettricità nel ventesimo secolo intelligenza artificiale la capacità di animare I prodotti e le comunicazioni dotando ogni cosa dai veicoli alle telecamere alle armi della capacità di interagire con il mondo che li circonda ma anche tra loro.", "start": 22.395, "end": 37.32 }, { "text": "Il termine intelligenza artificiale è stato coniato nel 1956, da allora ci sono stati molti alti e bassi nello sviluppo di questa tecnologia, ma quello che è cambiato nell'ultimo decennio è la grande quantità di dati prodotti ogni giorno e l'immensa potenza di calcolo a disposizione di aziende e governi di tutto il mondo.", "start": 37.32, "end": 54.7 }, { "text": "I dati sono infatti il carburante del machine learning che a sua volta è l'elemento base dell'intelligenza artificiale.", "start": 54.7, "end": 60.24 } ], "start": 9.84, "end": 60.24, "num_words": 149.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questa tecnologia si nutre di algoritmi e funziona grazie a lunghe sequenze di codici che determinano come la macchina reagirà.", "start": 60.86, "end": 66.96 }, { "text": "Attraverso queste scatole nere, rigorosamente coperte da copyright, è possibile dotare le intelligenze artificiali di qualità di calcolo che permettono di compiere operazioni complesse in pochissimo tempo, surrogando caratteristiche tipicamente esclusive del ragionamento umano.", "start": 67.555, "end": 83.01 }, { "text": "Insomma creare intelligenze artificiali capaci di avvicinare sempre di più il modo di pensare di una macchina a quello umano è probabilmente una delle sfide più impegnative che attendono l'uomo nei prossimi anni.", "start": 83.07, "end": 95.115 }, { "text": "Ma parlare di algoritmi, intelligenze artificiali e uomo solleva ancora tanti dubbi che attengono soprattutto alla sfera dell'etica e della fiducia, animando un dibattito che si", "start": 95.255, "end": 103.40929 } ], "start": 60.86, "end": 103.40929, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano", "start": 103.40929, "end": 103.72357 } ], "start": 103.40929, "end": 103.72357, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "e responsabilità di chi crea l'arte.", "start": 103.72357, "end": 104.55 }, { "text": "Che si muove fra tecnologia, dignità dell'umano e responsabilità di chi crea l'artificiale, una discussione che investe la regolamentazione giuridica, I principi etici e I meccanismi di funzionamento delle macchine.", "start": 105.51, "end": 115.79 } ], "start": 103.72357, "end": 115.79, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A oggi non esiste una regolazione complessiva e", "start": 115.79, "end": 116.11 } ], "start": 115.79, "end": 116.11, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il regolazione complessiva e organica dell'intelligenza artificiale e il vuoto è spesso colmato con il richiamo ad altre norme.", "start": 116.11, "end": 124.185 }, { "text": "D'altronde il fenomeno dell'intelligenza artificiale è nella sua percezione da parte dei legislatori così nuovo e dinamico da non consentire neanche una sua definizione condivisa né una piena consapevolezza delle sue potenzialità e dei suoi rischi.", "start": 124.185, "end": 137.95 }, { "text": "Solo nell'ultimo periodo I governi, in particolare quelli occidentali, si sono concretamente posti il problema delle tecniche predittive, del controllo sociale, del profiling, della manipolazione delle notizie, dei pregiudizi e delle discriminazioni determinate dagli algoritmi.", "start": 137.95, "end": 153.345 }, { "text": "Nel frattempo a Bruxelles, a più di un anno dalla pubblicazione di libro bianco, si sta muovendo qualcosa e I primi passi si muovono verso una regolamentazione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale, uno degli obiettivi dichiarati dalla presidente Ursula von der Leyen al suo insediamento.", "start": 153.645, "end": 169.3 }, { "text": "Ma non è tutto.", "start": 169.51999, "end": 170.5 } ], "start": 116.11, "end": 170.5, "num_words": 141.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In occasione dei lavori del Trade and Technology Council, Unione Europea e Stati Uniti hanno annunciato la volontà di intensificare la collaborazione transatlantica sulle tecnologie emergenti e specie sull'intelligenza artificiale e di vigilare sull'invio di prodotti Dual use che possono avere impieghi militari e civili.", "start": 171.12, "end": 188.295 }, { "text": "Il tutto per contrastare l'avanzata tecnologica del Cremlino nel conflitto russo-ucraina.", "start": 188.79999, "end": 193.59999 }, { "text": "In un mondo fatto di uomini che utilizzano algoritmi per accedere ai servizi negli ambiti più disparati e macchine che grazie agli algoritmi diventano capaci di provare sentimenti, ci avviamo verso un futuro di replicanti in stile Blade Runner?", "start": 193.59999, "end": 206.855 }, { "text": "Quali sono I vantaggi strategici che può comportare l'uso dell'intelligenza artificiale nel confronto internazionale?", "start": 206.915, "end": 211.89499 }, { "text": "Quali sono I rischi?", "start": 212.595, "end": 213.715 } ], "start": 171.12, "end": 213.715, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Per rispondere a queste altre domande l'ospite di tecnopolicy è padre Paolo Benanti professore di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia", "start": 213.715, "end": 222.98999 } ], "start": 213.715, "end": 222.98999, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Università Gregoriana.", "start": 222.98999, "end": 223.00523 }, { "text": "Oggi diamo il benvenuto a padre Paolo Benanti, che è professore di teologia", "start": 223.00523, "end": 223.10428 } ], "start": 222.98999, "end": 223.10428, "num_words": 15.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università.", "start": 223.10428, "end": 224.20999 }, { "text": "Di teologia morale ed etica delle tecnologie alla Pontificia Università Gregoriana.", "start": 231.485, "end": 235.665 }, { "text": "Salve e ben trovati.", "start": 236.125, "end": 237.185 }, { "text": "Benvenuto, grazie di essere con noi.", "start": 237.325, "end": 239.58499 }, { "text": "Allora, in questo podcast noi partiamo sempre da una domanda che scarichiamo sul nostro ospite, per comodità anche dell'intervistatore, ed è quella di presentarsi, cioè di raccontare il proprio percorso professionale umano e di come oggi si sia arrivati a questo punto.", "start": 239.885, "end": 258.66 } ], "start": 223.10428, "end": 258.66, "num_words": 71.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Come è arrivato Paolo Benanti ad oggi?", "start": 258.66, "end": 261.45502 } ], "start": 258.66, "end": 261.45502, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Diciamo che la storia di ciascuno di noi è fatta di incontri, di casualità e di occasioni.", "start": 262.39502, "end": 267.855 }, { "text": "Io ero uno dei tanti ragazzi di Roma degli anni 90 che pensava che il suo futuro fosse quello di finire gli studi e poi cercare uno dei tanti possibili impieghi sul mercato del lavoro.", "start": 268.55502, "end": 281.11 }, { "text": "Stavo studiando ingegneria, però mentre facevo ingegneria, profeticamente un professore di filosofia del liceo aveva visto in me qualcosa che io magari non avevo visto quando gli avevo detto che preferivo la tecnica alla filosofia.", "start": 281.11, "end": 294.885 }, { "text": "Lui mi aveva detto: Beh, preferirei far carriera che non capire la realtà.", "start": 294.885, "end": 298.98502 }, { "text": "Ecco, a un certo punto, mentre stavo verso il quarto anno di ingegneria, mi sono reso conto che l'ingegneria era potentissima, ma mi dava un buono schema per approssimare la realtà.", "start": 299.4, "end": 311.18 } ], "start": 262.39502, "end": 311.18, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Desideravo qualcosa di più.", "start": 311.32, "end": 313.665 }, { "text": "Non me lo sono sinceramente andato a cercare, però, come tante volte accade, all'epoca avevo una storia con una ragazza, questa ragazza mi fatto incontrare I frati e un giorno, durante un incontro, ho visto in quella forma di vita, in quella possibilità di poter cercare il senso delle cose per tutta la mia vita un qualcosa che mi piaceva tantissimo Da lì è partito un percorso che mi portato prima a studiare filosofia, poi teologia e finito il percorso teologico ho fatto una specializzazione in etica Dopo la specializzazione in etica sostanzialmente ho preso una borsa di studio per Georgestown, dove mi hanno invitato a fare un dottorato, o parte di un dottorato, perché poi per motivi ecclesiali il titolo mi serviva che fosse di un'Università pontificia, sull'intersezione tra umano, tecnologia e quant'altro.", "start": 313.665, "end": 365.52002 }, { "text": "E lì ho potuto recuperare in questo percorso di studi tanto gli studi tecnici quanto gli studi etici e filosofici.", "start": 365.58002, "end": 371.84003 }, { "text": "E così è venuto fuori questo Pitch D, questo dottorato sull'intersezione tra umano e macchina e sulle sfide tra umano e macchina e dentro questo dottorato c'erano 3 sfide, erano 3 gli ambiti tecnologici che andavo a indagare.", "start": 372.695, "end": 387.035 }, { "text": "Uno era quello delle nanotecnologie, uno era quello delle biotecnologie cognitive e uno era quello dell'intelligenza artificiale.", "start": 388.12, "end": 395.09998 } ], "start": 311.32, "end": 395.09998, "num_words": 213.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Era il 2009 e all'epoca pensavo che fossero le neurotecnologie dell'enancement, quelle che più promettevano un impatto forte.", "start": 395.24, "end": 403.865 }, { "text": "Era partita la primavera delle intelligenze artificiali, è tornato in Italia, quello è stato un po' il grande cammino di approfondimento.", "start": 404.805, "end": 412.265 } ], "start": 395.24, "end": 412.265, "num_words": 39.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nel frattempo uno dei temi che tratti con più attenzione è quello dell'argoretica, cioè quali principi si possono applicare agli algoritmi, come insegnare a questi algoritmi a seguire dei principi e dei valori che noi consideriamo fondamentali e quindi come fanno le macchine a capire quello che noi abbiamo messo qualche migliaio di anni a sviluppare come principi, valori e cardini del nostro agire come esseri umani?", "start": 413.685, "end": 452.56 } ], "start": 413.685, "end": 452.56, "num_words": 67.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dunque, noi abbiamo visto un profondo momento di trasmutazione profonda del nostro vivere con la rivoluzione industriale, quando una macchina improvvisamente è riuscita a prendere il posto del nostro muscolo, della nostra forza muscolare.", "start": 452.56, "end": 468.08502 }, { "text": "A partire dagli anni 'cinquanta dello scorso secolo, abbiamo iniziato a pensare di potere, grazie alla computazione, a questa forza che di fatto le macchine calcolatrici ci davano, diventati poi computer, di poter far prendere alla macchina anche un'altra funzione umana, che è quella della cognizione.", "start": 468.545, "end": 486.84 }, { "text": "Le tecnologie cosiddette intelligenti nascono come un'evoluzione che però rischia di fare un'ulteriore rivoluzione industriale, questa volta dagli effetti molto più deflagranti e globali.", "start": 487.165, "end": 499.105 }, { "text": "Tutto questo si gioca attorno a un fattore chiave che è la computazione.", "start": 500.06998, "end": 504.33 }, { "text": "Uno dei padri di questo mondo, Alan Turing, contemporaneamente a un altro studioso che si chiama Church, formulano indipendentemente ma connessi quello che è un po' il postulato dei Church Touring.", "start": 505.18997, "end": 518.97504 } ], "start": 452.56, "end": 518.97504, "num_words": 148.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Il postulato è questo: qualsiasi operazione computabile, indipendentemente dal substrato che lo computa, prima o poi potrà essere computata analogamente da un'altra macchina.", "start": 519.435, "end": 531.32 }, { "text": "E quindi, se l'intelligenza è qualcosa di calcolabile, prima o poi qualcosa di non biologico potrà in qualche misura calcolarlo nella stessa maniera.", "start": 531.54004, "end": 542.625 }, { "text": "Quello che negli anni 50 era un sogno oggi lo vediamo con Alpha Fold, con Deepmind, con GPT-tre sempre più vicino.", "start": 542.625, "end": 549.76495 }, { "text": "Ecco, ma questa trasformazione è veramente analoga all'essere umano?", "start": 550.225, "end": 557.17 }, { "text": "Ecco, se mi permettete di giocare un po' con le parole, la computazione inizia con la lettera C, ecco, ci sono almeno altre C che poi dopo 50-settanta anni ci siamo resi conto che non sono computabili.", "start": 557.17, "end": 568.14996 } ], "start": 519.435, "end": 568.14996, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Uno è il corpo, perché c'è il cosiddetto paradosso di Moravec, per cui un'intelligenza artificiale riesce a fare molto bene un compito cognitivo alto, il logaritmo di 12, e riesce a fare molto meno bene un compito cognitivo basso, come aprire la maniglia di una porta.", "start": 568.835, "end": 587.89 }, { "text": "Per cui una calcolatrice che fa un logaritmo la compro a pochi dollari o a pochi centesimi, anche su una piattaforma di e-commerce.", "start": 588.11005, "end": 595.49005 }, { "text": "Una mano robotica che apre la maniglia, ecco, mi serve un grande istituto italiano di tecnologia e costa centinaia di migliaia di euro.", "start": 595.925, "end": 603.06494 }, { "text": "Mentre un bambino, a 5 anni, apre la maniglia di casa e se ne va a giocare, per fare il logaritmo deve arrivare alle superiori.", "start": 603.605, "end": 610.82495 }, { "text": "La corporeità e il dono che la corporeità ci fa come intelligenza e intelligenza motoria non si computa.", "start": 611.27997, "end": 618.25995 } ], "start": 568.835, "end": 618.25995, "num_words": 135.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "L'altra cosa è la coscienza.", "start": 618.56, "end": 620.1 }, { "text": "Ecco, il paradigma di Church Turing è connesso a un fattore, un problema è computabile, sto semplificando molto, se conosce un suo termine, qualcosa che a che fare con un interrupt.", "start": 620.48, "end": 632.755 }, { "text": "Ecco, la nostra coscienza, se un interrupt, gli succede qualcosa di molto brutto che si chiama morte.", "start": 633.21497, "end": 638.675 }, { "text": "Quindi la coscienza non è un problema Turing computabile.", "start": 638.84, "end": 641.74 }, { "text": "Corpo, coscienza, ma c'è un'altra cosa che le macchine non ci riescono a dire, sempre con la C, la causalità.", "start": 643.16003, "end": 648.62 } ], "start": 618.56, "end": 648.62, "num_words": 82.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco, noi possiamo prendere qualcosa che è correlativo, Si aprono gli ombrelli, quindi piove, l'accelerometro del mio telefonino dice che sto rallentando, quindi c'è traffico.", "start": 649.24, "end": 658.90497 }, { "text": "Ma perché c'è traffico?", "start": 659.08496, "end": 661.065 }, { "text": "Non lo riusciamo a dire.", "start": 661.285, "end": 662.665 }, { "text": "E quindi la causazione è ancora qualcosa che di fatto appartiene solo all'umano.", "start": 662.885, "end": 669.31 }, { "text": "Ecco, questi fattori non computabili ci dicono che c'è uno spazio umano di differenza qualitativa rispetto alla macchina.", "start": 669.45, "end": 676.83 } ], "start": 649.24, "end": 676.83, "num_words": 65.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Che cos'è l'algoretica?", "start": 677.13, "end": 678.11005 }, { "text": "E' cercare di scrivere un nuovo capitolo di questo spazio umano e solo umano che è l'etica, non è animale perché gli animali hanno gli istinti, non è delle macchine perché le macchine hanno la progettazione E questa volta, nel momento in cui la macchina può surrogare alcune decisioni umane, questo spazio di etica, computabile dalla macchina, algoretica, dovrebbe funzionare come una sorta di grande guard rail, come qualcosa che tiene la macchina all'interno di questa strada, all'interno di questo sentiero.", "start": 678.615, "end": 709.465 }, { "text": "Non è un'etica normativa, fai questo e non fare quell'altro, ma è una di quelle forme dell'etica, le più antiche, come diceva Aristotele, probabilmente anche più legata all'etica delle virtù.", "start": 709.92505, "end": 721.14 }, { "text": "Se noi dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale giusta e una ingiusta, quale vorremmo?", "start": 721.14, "end": 726.68005 }, { "text": "Se dovessimo scegliere tra un'intelligenza artificiale equa e una non equa, tra un intelligenza artificiale inclusiva e una non inclusiva.", "start": 727.06006, "end": 734.985 } ], "start": 677.13, "end": 734.985, "num_words": 147.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco l'algoretica cerca di fornire degli strumenti computazionali che in qualche misura mitighino e guidino la macchina verso I fini che noi vogliamo.", "start": 734.985, "end": 743.645 } ], "start": 734.985, "end": 743.645, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie, questo è un argomento che in qualche modo in questa fase sta cercando di regolamentare in particolare l'Unione Europea.", "start": 743.865, "end": 754.37 }, { "text": "Noi in questa fase c'è una proposta di regolamento e vediamo come l'Unione Europea cerca di trovare una specie di terza via fra gli Stati Uniti dove finora c'è stata una certa libertà di ricerca e di sviluppo soprattutto tecnologico soprattutto perché non riescono a trovare un accordo su come regolamentarlo, un accordo politico e quindi questo è stato anche un grande vantaggio per le aziende che hanno potuto avere davanti un'ampia libertà di ricerca e di sperimentazione.", "start": 754.67, "end": 783.07 }, { "text": "E poi c'è il modello cinese che invece è ultra regolamentato e più che altro è lo stato che decide da un giorno all'altro quello che deve succedere, cosa si può fare, chi possiamo controllare, quali macchine possiamo adottare per controllare la popolazione, per il riconoscimento facciale, per il social credit eccetera.", "start": 783.565, "end": 802.25 }, { "text": "Quindi come facciamo in Europa a trovare una via di mezzo per non interrompere il processo di ricerca e di sviluppo di una tecnologia che comunque è probabilmente il nostro futuro e però allo stesso tempo non esagerare nel liberare delle tecniche e delle modalità di uso dell'intelligenza artificiale che possono essere anche pericolose, rischiose.", "start": 802.95, "end": 832.03204 } ], "start": 743.865, "end": 832.03204, "num_words": 205.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bene, cominciamo dal dire", "start": 832.556, "end": 834.3 } ], "start": 832.556, "end": 834.3, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "che non esiste una tecnologia neutrale.", "start": 834.3, "end": 837.74 }, { "text": "Quando abbiamo chiaramente inventato la clava 60000 anni fa il primo uomo che l' presa in mano si sarà chiesto se quella era un'arma o era un utensile.", "start": 837.74, "end": 846.625 }, { "text": "Bene, al di là di questi semplici artefatti che sono direttamente legati alla nostra mano quando la tecnologia è diventata infrastruttura, ecco l'infrastruttura inocula dentro questo suo disporsi qualcosa che è anche connesso e legato a una visione del mondo, quindi a una visione politica.", "start": 847.245, "end": 866.14 }, { "text": "Un esempio è quando abbiamo creato l'infrastruttura elettrica.", "start": 866.415, "end": 870.33496 }, { "text": "Con l'infrastruttura della rete elettrica noi conosciamo almeno 2 modelli di distribuzione, uno fatto da Samuel Linsul, fondatore della General Electric Company, che seguiva quella modalità americana di chiamare un qualcosa democratizzato, democratizing, se era disponibile per tutti sul mercato.", "start": 870.33496, "end": 886.68 } ], "start": 834.3, "end": 886.68, "num_words": 127.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi abbassiamo I costi, le famiglie possono comprare elettricità, l'elettricità si diffonde.", "start": 886.68, "end": 891.01996 }, { "text": "Ma se noi andiamo in Unione Sovietica, troviamo che il primo piano quinquennale di Lenin, il Goelro, prevede la sovietizzazione delle repubbliche socialiste mediante la diffusione dell'energia elettrica.", "start": 891.39996, "end": 902.67505 }, { "text": "Quindi l'infrastruttura è sempre una forma d'ordine, è sempre una disposizione di potere.", "start": 903.135, "end": 908.515 }, { "text": "E qui arriviamo a 2 modalità che oggi stanno ai 2 estremi, anche geografici, rispetto all'Europa.", "start": 908.895, "end": 915.03 }, { "text": "Da una parte l'idea che il singolo e la libertà del singolo sia liberamente disponibile per far tutto, dall'altra l'idea che invece una centralizzazione aumenti l'efficienza e aumenti l'efficacia.", "start": 915.49, "end": 928.005 } ], "start": 886.68, "end": 928.005, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Se mi posso permettere una piccola critica, un modello troppo liberista, noi abbiamo visto, e questo dobbiamo dire grazie anche al coraggio femminile nell'anno del Me Too, che forse abbiamo un problema sul consenso.", "start": 928.945, "end": 941.765 }, { "text": "Quando un uomo pensa che un sì di una donna sia un sì a qualsiasi cosa, questo crea un grande problema sociale Tanti gruppi ci stanno dicendo che un modello di lavorazione dei dati della Silicon Valley è un po' macchiato di quel modello di consenso un po' maschilista, no?", "start": 942.84, "end": 960.40497 }, { "text": "Faccio clic una volta su consenso e poi sui miei dati puoi fare quello che vuoi.", "start": 960.40497, "end": 964.58496 }, { "text": "Ecco, quella libertà di quel tipo per noi europei suona troppo di potere non bilanciato.", "start": 964.725, "end": 971.82 }, { "text": "Cioè qualcuno che molto più potere di te non può abusare di te, in qualsiasi modo lui voglia.", "start": 972.44, "end": 977.64 } ], "start": 928.945, "end": 977.64, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Di contro, la società dell'informazione e del controllo, dove il consenso neanche c'è, alla fine paradossalmente arriva agli stessi esiti, ma con un controllore centrale che non è detto che risponda a quei valori per I quali abbiamo versato così tanto sangue nell'Europa moderna, che sono I valori di legittimazione della cosa pubblica e dello stato sociale.", "start": 977.64, "end": 999.02 }, { "text": "E allora come fare?", "start": 999.48004, "end": 1000.78 }, { "text": "Ecco, una via che noi stiamo percorrendo è questa della regolamentazione che procede in 2 direzioni: da una parte riconoscere che non tutte le infrastrutture hanno la stessa pericolosità.", "start": 1000.92004, "end": 1011.74 }, { "text": "E' chiaro che distribuire un sistema di riconoscimento video facciale un impatto molto diverso dall'utilizzare, per esempio, un sistema di qualità video nella produzione dei bottoni all'interno di una fabbrica, di una press.", "start": 1012.365, "end": 1026.12 }, { "text": "Quindi dire che non tutto è uguale è un livello di riflessione, di tempo e di spazio pubblico di riflessione tipico della tradizione europea, che da almeno 800, 900000 anni conosce la grande tradizione delle universitas, cioè dove diversi saperi si confronta.", "start": 1026.44, "end": 1042.095 } ], "start": 977.64, "end": 1042.095, "num_words": 165.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dall'altra è sfruttare il fatto che tra Europa e Gran Bretagna si crea un grande corridoio commerciale, il famoso blu banana.", "start": 1042.655, "end": 1050.755 }, { "text": "Banana perché una forma un po' a banana, blu perché è il colore dell'Europa e quel grande corridoio commerciale, che è il più grande corridoio di scambio che esiste al mondo, un potere sul mercato globale.", "start": 1051.215, "end": 1063.01 }, { "text": "Ecco, in fondo a produttori di massa che non sempre stanno accorti alla qualità come produttori cinesi abbiamo imposto un marchio di qualità e ugualmente all'America rispetto alla produzione di altri servizi.", "start": 1063.01, "end": 1074.835 }, { "text": "Riusciremo anche a farlo con l'intelligenza artificiale?", "start": 1074.835, "end": 1077.1749 }, { "text": "Ecco, la sfida è aperta.", "start": 1077.315, "end": 1078.855 } ], "start": 1042.655, "end": 1078.855, "num_words": 101.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Per certi elementi io sono molto ottimista.", "start": 1079.475, "end": 1082.5549 }, { "text": "Rispetto ad altri effetti e al non è detto che riusciamo a vedere tutto prima in anticipo, questo mi fa essere un po' più pessimista.", "start": 1082.595, "end": 1090.52 }, { "text": "Però un dispositivo regolamentativo non è detto che sia scritto sulle tavole di pietra, se mi consentite di fare questo gioco di parole.", "start": 1090.98, "end": 1099.125 }, { "text": "E quindi però è un primo tentativo che dice al mondo il cittadino, l'uomo deve stare al centro.", "start": 1099.125, "end": 1105.225 } ], "start": 1079.475, "end": 1105.225, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco questo discorso dell'uomo al centro per esempio si trova nelle applicazioni dell'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia penale.", "start": 1105.765, "end": 1115.56 }, { "text": "Abbiamo avuto recentemente in Cina proprio un esperimento in cui c'era una specie di AI Prosecutor che stabiliva se una condotta era illecita con fondamentalmente un algoritmo.", "start": 1116.42, "end": 1134.655 }, { "text": "Come si può effettivamente conciliare I diritti fondamentali con l'intelligenza artificiale nel campo della giustizia?", "start": 1137.37, "end": 1146.9099 }, { "text": "Perché da una parte c'è anche chi dice beh un giudice che è una macchina la mattina del mio processo non è stato nel traffico, non litigato con I figli, non un bias contro di me perché a meno che non ce l'abbia chi quella macchina diciamo l' costruita e chi quei principi li cercato di mettere nella macchina.", "start": 1146.97, "end": 1169.8201 }, { "text": "Però tendenzialmente magari non un problema con una certa etnia, non un problema con una certa nazionalità, quindi per certi versi una giustizia fatta dall'intelligenza artificiale potrebbe essere più equa perché in teoria la stessa condotta si risponde con la stessa condanna eventuale o con l'assoluzione.", "start": 1169.8201, "end": 1190.0951 } ], "start": 1105.765, "end": 1190.0951, "num_words": 166.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ma come come le si fa a capire qual è il limite di un'automatizzazione della giustizia?", "start": 1191.275, "end": 1200.28 } ], "start": 1191.275, "end": 1200.28, "num_words": 16.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Allora, questa è una domanda complessissima e io la spacchetterei, mettiamola così, su 3 livelli.", "start": 1200.9, "end": 1208.92 }, { "text": "Allora, un primo livello è un livello che riguarda una sfida fondamentale che accade oggi.", "start": 1209.195, "end": 1215.215 }, { "text": "La sfida fondamentale che accade oggi è tra l'uomo e la macchina.", "start": 1215.355, "end": 1218.4149 }, { "text": "Stiamo in qualche misura perdendo, di fronte a macchine così capacitive, così potenti la capacità di dire qual è l'uomo.", "start": 1219.195, "end": 1228.93 }, { "text": "Se Grozio all'inizio dell'età moderna ragionava nell'etica Ut si deus non dartor oggi nelle stesse decisioni stiamo ragionando un pochino cioè come se l'uomo che cos'è che ci fa uomini in qualche misura ci stesse sfuggendo.", "start": 1229.39, "end": 1246.025 } ], "start": 1200.9, "end": 1246.025, "num_words": 98.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ed ecco che nascono tutta una serie di critiche molto efficientiste tanto dalla Silicon Valley tanto dal modello cinese sulla qualità del giudizio umano cioè ci viene detto questa cosa che voi prendevate appunto di riferimento che è l'uomo e il suo decidere non è detto che sia così performante Daniel Kahnema, premio Nobel per la psicologia ci detto, nella sua psicologia cognitiva, ci detto che di fatto ragioniamo su pensieri lenti e pensieri veloci.", "start": 1246.805, "end": 1275.6951 }, { "text": "Dati alla mano, in Israele, un giudice dà condanne molto meno severe dopo che fatto la pausa caffè, mentre dà condanne molto più pesanti quando bisogno del caffè.", "start": 1275.9951, "end": 1286.62 }, { "text": "Quindi questo ci potrebbe portare a dire che in fondo l'uomo è imperfetto.", "start": 1286.62, "end": 1290.0801 }, { "text": "Il medico che salva così tante vite, mediamente nel mondo non è così efficiente.", "start": 1291.1, "end": 1297.12 }, { "text": "Ma questa è un'efficienza quantitativa e non qualitativa.", "start": 1297.755, "end": 1302.735 } ], "start": 1246.805, "end": 1302.735, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Se noi guardiamo alla storia dell'uomo, in particolare nell'ambito della giustizia, chi può giudicare un altro uomo?", "start": 1303.1951, "end": 1309.595 }, { "text": "Questa è una domanda che attraversato la riflessione umana per tanti secoli.", "start": 1309.595, "end": 1313.01 }, { "text": "E mai ci siamo detti che quella persona poteva fare il giudice perché il suo giudizio sarebbe stato sempre perfetto fino in fondo.", "start": 1313.41, "end": 1320.99 }, { "text": "Ma quella persona qualitativamente impiegato se stessa nei confronti di un mestiere con un commitment, con un impegno che durava tutta la vita.", "start": 1321.01, "end": 1332.025 }, { "text": "Il medico, il giudice, il prete erano persone che si dedicavano tutta la vita a fare del loro meglio per fare qualcosa.", "start": 1332.165, "end": 1340.3451 } ], "start": 1303.1951, "end": 1340.3451, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco, questa qualità non è una quantità.", "start": 1340.76, "end": 1344.22 }, { "text": "Diremmo con le parole di non è un problema computabile.", "start": 1344.6, "end": 1349.02 }, { "text": "Il secondo livello di questa domanda riguarda invece la qualità della macchina.", "start": 1349.8, "end": 1354.3 }, { "text": "E' chiaro, un calcolo 3 più 2 uguale a 5.", "start": 1354.565, "end": 1357.865 }, { "text": "Ma un giudizio su un comportamento, un giudizio penale o un giudizio anche penale connessa all'etica non avviene solo su valori numerici ma avviene su valori che sono valori etici, costituzionali e quant'altro che non sono semplicemente esprimibili in quantità numeriche e di fronte a questa potenza della macchina c'è qualcuno che crede più affidabile alla macchina che non l'umano Da una parte stiamo depotenziando l'umano, dall'altra stiamo in qualche misura idolizzando o idealizzando la macchina.", "start": 1358.165, "end": 1395.6951 } ], "start": 1340.76, "end": 1395.6951, "num_words": 115.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In realtà, una serie di elementi che sempre di più compaiono sotto I nostri occhi ci dicono che il giudizio della macchina è tutt'altro che perfetto.", "start": 1395.6951, "end": 1404.27 }, { "text": "Anche la macchina commette degli errori sistematici chiamati bias in inglese, li potremmo tradurre per giudizi, preferisco errore sistematico, non voglio dare l'idea che qualcuno apposta fatto quella cosa.", "start": 1404.27, "end": 1415.355 }, { "text": "Che però sono inevitabili quando si lavora sui dati.", "start": 1415.595, "end": 1418.875 }, { "text": "Proviamo a fare un esempio.", "start": 1418.875, "end": 1420.1749 }, { "text": "Se io raccogliessi tutti I voti di tutti gli elettori dalla prima elezione del Presidente degli Stati Uniti ad oggi, cioè avessi un dataset di ogni voto espresso negli Stati Uniti e avessi un algoritmo di machine learning perfetto e dessi quei dati all'algoritmo, improvvisamente potrei chiedere all'algoritmo chi sarà il prossimo Presidente degli Stati Uniti.", "start": 1420.355, "end": 1443.7 } ], "start": 1395.6951, "end": 1443.7, "num_words": 125.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mi direbbe quasi certamente un uomo, un po' meno certamente caucasico, un po' ancora meno certamente di circa sessant'anni.", "start": 1443.7, "end": 1451.485 }, { "text": "Perché non mi dice una donna?", "start": 1451.865, "end": 1453.965 }, { "text": "Semplicemente perché nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata.", "start": 1454.905, "end": 1457.485 }, { "text": "E allora l'idea che nei dati una donna non c'è mai stata produce un errore sistematico non voluto, ma comunque difficile da gestire.", "start": 1457.545, "end": 1465.4501 }, { "text": "Anche la macchina sbaglia come l'uomo.", "start": 1465.59, "end": 1467.4501 } ], "start": 1443.7, "end": 1467.4501, "num_words": 64.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi questa superiorità qualitativa non c'è.", "start": 1467.51, "end": 1470.97 }, { "text": "E cosa accade però?", "start": 1471.03, "end": 1473.21 }, { "text": "Un motto degli ingegneri, lo dico in inglese, poi lo traduco, è: Think twice cat ones.", "start": 1473.8301, "end": 1479.585 }, { "text": "Misura 2 volte, poi taglia, perché una volta che hai tagliato, hai tagliato.", "start": 1479.805, "end": 1482.925 }, { "text": "C'è un principio di precauzione.", "start": 1482.925, "end": 1484.305 } ], "start": 1467.51, "end": 1484.305, "num_words": 44.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi anche il giudice di Kahneman, che è più severo quando bisogno del caffè, prima o poi si stanca.", "start": 1484.845, "end": 1490.25 }, { "text": "Un algoritmo non si stanca mai.", "start": 1490.33, "end": 1492.35 }, { "text": "Ecco che gli effetti di questi errori sistematici applicati a una macchina che continuamente fa questi calcoli senza fermarsi, potrebbero produrre una sorta di tsunami di ingiustizia sociale capace veramente di creare degli effetti notevolissimi e profondamente ingiusti Arriviamo a un terzo livello della domanda Ma questo quindi è vero in assoluto?", "start": 1492.41, "end": 1516.985 }, { "text": "Ecco, dipende dall'applicazione, dipende dalla circostanza.", "start": 1517.2999, "end": 1520.2 }, { "text": "Supponiamo di dover parlare di cure mediche in un ambiente rurale con basso tasso di medici specializzati.", "start": 1521.7, "end": 1528.44 } ], "start": 1484.845, "end": 1528.44, "num_words": 100.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "E' chiaro che io difficilmente trovo un oculista specializzato in una retinopatia, in un territorio molto vasto, magari in un territorio più disagiato o povero.", "start": 1529.635, "end": 1541.015 }, { "text": "E quindi è molto probabile che lì io non abbia per niente una diagnosi fatta da un uomo Posso utilizzare in quella circostanza un algoritmo di intelligenza artificiale con uno smartphone?", "start": 1541.33, "end": 1552.15 }, { "text": "Ecco, magari qualcosa in più me la dà rispetto a niente ed ecco quindi che se filosoficamente ci colpisce tanto questo desiderio di surrogare il giudizio umano imponderabile con un giudizio macchinico ingiustificabile dall'altra dobbiamo riconoscere che per alcune circostanze estreme che ci troviamo a vivere sul pianeta non è detto che questo non possa dare una mano Questo è molto diverso da dire che mettiamo sullo stesso livello macchina e uomo", "start": 1552.85, "end": 1579.93 } ], "start": 1529.635, "end": 1579.93, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Insomma una sostituzione che si basa solo sulla necessità eventuale e comunque quando parlavi della questione dello tsunami di ingiustizia il problema poi effettivamente è che quando tu decidi di conferire quel potere alla macchina poi è molto difficile tornare indietro perché allora come fai a dire perché poi che fai fai un appello, permetti di fare appello a tutti quelli che sono stati condannati prima dell'aggiornamento dell'algoritmo, perché poi se aggiorni l'algoritmo ex post potresti che quello che succede ogni tanto con dei giudici che si scopre essere corrotti dopo, allora chi è stato condannato quel giudice magari può fare può può fare riaprire il suo processo.", "start": 1580.755, "end": 1621.7401 }, { "text": "Allora che succede se poi l'algoritmo va aggiornato?", "start": 1621.7401, "end": 1625.04 }, { "text": "E il tema è che quando io condanno un", "start": 1625.42, "end": 1629.1001 } ], "start": 1580.755, "end": 1629.1001, "num_words": 125.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "giudice per corruzione, c'ho la causa del giudizio errato.", "start": 1629.1001, "end": 1632.7201 }, { "text": "Una macchina, e una macchina che noi utilizziamo per fare tutto questo, è opaca, non una causalità Se io aprissi idealisticamente il cofano di questa macchina, quello che troverei dentro sono solo numeri che forniscono spiegazioni subsimboche, cioè non forniscono una causalità.", "start": 1633.505, "end": 1652.04 }, { "text": "La causalità era una di quelle C che non riuscivamo a calcolare.", "start": 1652.42, "end": 1655.88 }, { "text": "E allora, se io domani dovessi avere che I giudizi di condanna sono sbilanciati del 7.8910 por 100 su una minoranza etnica, non saprò mai se è perché il giudice digitale fa un errore sistematico o se è perché veramente c'è un'eccedenza di reati in quel gruppo etnico.", "start": 1656.5801, "end": 1678.7899 }, { "text": "Ecco, questo ancora peggiore, perché non riuscirei mai a trovare la causa di questo probabile errore sistematico.", "start": 1679.09, "end": 1685.11 } ], "start": 1629.1001, "end": 1685.11, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Chiaramente su un tema così delicato, dove il mio crimine qualcosa che merita o non merita una punizione, non può essere affidato a un calcolo statistico, a un tiro di dati.", "start": 1685.57, "end": 1696.445 } ], "start": 1685.57, "end": 1696.445, "num_words": 31.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ora ti leggerò un estratto di un libro che è uscito da poco, firmato da Henry Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, che è stato CEO di Google per molti anni, e da Daniel Hotten Locker che è Dean dell'MIT Schwarzmann College of Computing e in questo libro sull'intelligenza artificiale loro dicono: gli scienziati e I manager che sviluppano la tecnologia, gli strateghi militari che vogliono impiegarla, I leader politici che vogliono plasmarla, e I filosofi e I teologi che ne studiano I significati più profondi vedono solo dei pezzi del quadro completo.", "start": 1696.585, "end": 1731.015 }, { "text": "Cioè loro dicono nell'intelligenza artificiale ci sono tanti soggetti coinvolti e non per forza persone che abbiano una visione completa della faccenda.", "start": 1731.5549, "end": 1744.68 }, { "text": "Tu puoi dire di coprire 2 categorie cioè quella filosofico, teologica e anche quella scientifica visti I tuoi studi in ingegneria e il tuo insomma interesse per il lato scientifico matematico e tecnologico Ma esistono dei forum, dei posti in cui si parla e questi soggetti si trovano insieme ognuno porta la sua diciamo visione, come dico tunnel vision, cioè la sua visione specifica, e per cercare di aprire il campo visivo anche a quello che non entra nelle competenze di ciascuno.", "start": 1745.22, "end": 1784.615 } ], "start": 1696.585, "end": 1784.615, "num_words": 194.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Dunque, ci sono in maniera informale, io stesso ho partecipato a un paio di forum, di incontri anche con Eric Schmitt, c'era pure Peter Thiel, ce n'erano diversi di questi, come alto livello.", "start": 1785.155, "end": 1798.1299 }, { "text": "Poi per il resto noi ci troviamo di fronte a un'istituzione accademica che è ancora molto moderna, cioè ancora molto in container verticali abbastanza rigidi.", "start": 1798.19, "end": 1810.245 }, { "text": "Ma già come un fenomeno come TED ci mostrato, ecco l'idea di container rigidi lungamente estesi nel tempo stride con la grande ridefinizione delle competenze e delle conoscenze che accade oggi e quindi c'è bisogno di una cosa nuova che si chiama la contaminazione abbiamo bisogno di contaminare I saperi l'uno con l'altro Abbiamo bisogno sostanzialmente di ricreare quella piazza che era all'interno della polis greca, che è la matrice del nostro occidente.", "start": 1811.265, "end": 1840.355 }, { "text": "Forse proprio noi, come occidentali, quando abbiamo perso l'idea della piazza a favore dell'idea della via, della via che ci porta dritti a una destinazione, abbiamo perso qualcosa di noi.", "start": 1840.575, "end": 1851.17 }, { "text": "Ma se vogliamo vivere tutto questo secondo quella matrice più autentica, che è la matrice democratica, che è la matrice di gestione della grande potenza delle grandi risorse che tutto questo ci dà, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare democrazia, abbiamo bisogno di tornare a fare piazza, abbiamo bisogno di tornare ad ascoltarci.", "start": 1851.39, "end": 1869.6749 } ], "start": 1785.155, "end": 1869.6749, "num_words": 214.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ecco, questo ascoltarci con competenze diverse, questo spazio vuoto che in realtà ci arricchisce, che non serve a qualcosa, ma che è pieno di senso, è forse una cosa che abbiamo un po' perso, e ricreare spazi come questi, e non sappiamo ancora bene dove costruire queste piazze, è forse l'urgenza più grande per darci la capacità di vivere quel futuro che in fondo desideriamo vivere.", "start": 1870.455, "end": 1893.005 } ], "start": 1870.455, "end": 1893.005, "num_words": 66.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "L'ultima domanda, chiediamo ai nostri ospiti per l'ultima domanda di consigliarci qualcuno da leggere, da seguire, una persona, un'istituzione, una testata, qualche contenuto che valga la pena seguire e che il nostro ospite considera importante nei temi di cui si occupa?", "start": 1893.865, "end": 1917.55 } ], "start": 1893.865, "end": 1917.55, "num_words": 41.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Beh, senz'altro ne suggerisco 2, esagero un pochino.", "start": 1917.55, "end": 1921.605 }, { "text": "Una cosa è un testo che ho scritto che si chiama Human in the loop, che cerca di essere un po' un unicum in questa voce, nel senso che cerca di dare uno spazio dell'umano per intercettare la tecnologia.", "start": 1922.085, "end": 1933.785 }, { "text": "È un testo di Mondadori, c'è una prefazione addirittura di Giuliano Amato, quindi per dire che anche la Costituzione, cioè l'ordine democratico, cerca di interrogarsi su come la tecnologia cambi le relazioni tra di noi.", "start": 1934.26, "end": 1944.6799 }, { "text": "E questo amplifica più o meno tutte le cose che ci siamo detti da Kahneman fino alla democrazia.", "start": 1944.9, "end": 1950.525 }, { "text": "La seconda questione è invece un forum molto, come dire, bottom up, nasce dal basso, è un forum di persone che si interrogano sul significato di questi cambiamenti.", "start": 1951.225, "end": 1963.6 } ], "start": 1917.55, "end": 1963.6, "num_words": 128.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "È un forum che appartiene a una rivista un po' storica che si chiama Alt 2006.", "start": 1964.2999, "end": 1969.9 }, { "text": "È una rivista dei primi hacker bianchi, di coloro che cercavano di modificare la tecnologia per capirne il senso.", "start": 1969.9, "end": 1976.72 }, { "text": "Ancora molto attivo e si trovano un sacco di buoni suggerimenti su quello che sta accadendo in questo mondo tecnologicamente ben spiegato e quali potrebbero essere gli effetti sulla capacità di poter vivere ancora in uno stato democratico come quello che vogliamo avere noi.", "start": 1976.995, "end": 1990.615 } ], "start": 1964.2999, "end": 1990.615, "num_words": 79.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie, grazie a Paolo Benanti per essere stato con noi.", "start": 1991.02, "end": 1993.98 } ], "start": 1991.02, "end": 1993.98, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie a voi.", "start": 1993.98, "end": 1994.88 } ], "start": 1993.98, "end": 1994.88, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo, registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "start": 1997.9, "end": 2004.615 } ], "start": 1997.9, "end": 2004.615, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 9.84, "end": 10.34, "confidence": 0.9407552, "channel": 0, "transcript": "L'intelligenza", "words": [ { "word": "l'intelligenza", "start": 9.84, "end": 10.34, "confidence": 0.9407552, "punctuated_word": "L'intelligenza", "speaker": 0, "speaker_confidence": 0.4032613 } ], "speaker": 0, "id": "5cb3f2c6-77c9-48ce-a6c9-47686e825765" }, { "start": 11.28, "end": 13.934999, "confidence": 0.998723, "channel": 0, "transcript": "artificiale non serve a fare una cosa nuova ma è una tecnologia 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Riusciremo anche a farlo con l'intelligenza artificiale? 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Anche la macchina sbaglia come l'uomo. Quindi questa superiorità", "words": [ { "word": "sistematico", "start": 1461.91, "end": 1462.0701, "confidence": 0.87158203, "punctuated_word": "sistematico", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "non", "start": 1462.0701, "end": 1462.31, "confidence": 0.81933594, "punctuated_word": "non", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "voluto", "start": 1462.31, "end": 1462.81, "confidence": 0.8635254, "punctuated_word": "voluto,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "ma", "start": 1462.87, "end": 1463.11, "confidence": 0.9951172, "punctuated_word": "ma", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "comunque", "start": 1463.11, "end": 1463.61, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "comunque", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "difficile", "start": 1463.6699, "end": 1464.1699, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "difficile", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "da", "start": 1464.23, "end": 1464.73, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "da", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "gestire", "start": 1464.9501, "end": 1465.4501, "confidence": 0.8779297, "punctuated_word": "gestire.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "anche", "start": 1465.59, "end": 1465.8301, "confidence": 0.9941406, "punctuated_word": "Anche", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "la", "start": 1465.8301, "end": 1465.99, "confidence": 0.99902344, "punctuated_word": "la", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "macchina", "start": 1465.99, "end": 1466.39, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "macchina", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "sbaglia", "start": 1466.39, "end": 1466.71, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "sbaglia", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "come", "start": 1466.71, "end": 1466.9501, "confidence": 0.9980469, "punctuated_word": "come", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "l'uomo", "start": 1466.9501, "end": 1467.4501, "confidence": 0.9202881, "punctuated_word": "l'uomo.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "quindi", "start": 1467.51, "end": 1467.75, "confidence": 0.9243164, "punctuated_word": "Quindi", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "questa", "start": 1467.75, "end": 1468.0701, "confidence": 0.84716797, "punctuated_word": "questa", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "superiorità", "start": 1468.0701, "end": 1468.5701, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "superiorità", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "7747e134-14f2-43a3-9223-04d916100ee6" }, { "start": 1469.03, "end": 1469.53, "confidence": 1.0, "channel": 0, "transcript": "qualitativa", "words": [ { "word": "qualitativa", "start": 1469.03, "end": 1469.53, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "qualitativa", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "e4340b78-0789-4574-b1b0-8ecbc9e08098" }, { "start": 1470.23, "end": 1473.21, "confidence": 0.9047038, "channel": 0, "transcript": "non c'è. E cosa accade però?", "words": [ { "word": "non", "start": 1470.23, "end": 1470.47, "confidence": 0.9892578, "punctuated_word": "non", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "c'è", "start": 1470.47, "end": 1470.97, "confidence": 0.92407227, "punctuated_word": "c'è.", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "e", "start": 1471.03, "end": 1471.53, "confidence": 0.7495117, "punctuated_word": "E", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "cosa", "start": 1471.59, "end": 1471.91, "confidence": 0.9375, "punctuated_word": "cosa", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "accade", "start": 1471.91, "end": 1472.41, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "accade", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "però", "start": 1472.71, "end": 1473.21, "confidence": 0.8317871, "punctuated_word": "però?", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 } ], "speaker": 1, "id": "b7528bc0-9bf5-4802-b091-ad39414b1e53" }, { "start": 1473.8301, "end": 1484.305, "confidence": 0.87989354, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Un motto degli ingegneri, lo dico in inglese, poi lo traduco, è: Think twice cat ones. Misura 2 volte, poi taglia, perché una volta che hai tagliato, hai tagliato. C'è un principio di precauzione.", "words": [ { "word": "un", "start": 1473.8301, "end": 1473.99, "confidence": 0.5390625, "punctuated_word": "Un", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "motto", "start": 1473.99, "end": 1474.47, "confidence": 1.0, "punctuated_word": "motto", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "degli", "start": 1474.47, "end": 1474.79, "confidence": 0.99609375, "punctuated_word": "degli", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "ingegneri", "start": 1474.79, "end": 1475.29, "confidence": 0.8857422, "punctuated_word": "ingegneri,", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "lo", "start": 1475.35, "end": 1475.51, "confidence": 0.9667969, "punctuated_word": "lo", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "dico", "start": 1475.51, "end": 1475.75, "confidence": 0.9921875, "punctuated_word": "dico", "speaker": 1, "speaker_confidence": 0.9590719 }, { "word": "in", "start": 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Un algoritmo non si stanca mai. 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