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La complessità sta nel definire un quadro normativo che bilanciando diritti, responsabilità ed esigenze di sicurezza consenta di disciplinare l'utilizzo di tecnologie molto diverse fra loro tenendo conto della variabilità individuale di ognuna. Un equilibrio di sistema può essere raggiunto solo con il contributo di un efficace mediazione giuridica. L'approccio One size fit = regole uguali a fronte di fenomeni, rischi e modelli molto diversi è sempre più discutibile. In un momento storico in cui il digitale con il nostro PNRR diviene abilitatore di competenze in tutti I comparti che guideranno la ripresa c'è un enorme bisogno di unire gli attori e gli operatori che si muovono in questo contesto dalle istituzioni agli enti regolatori, dagli esperti alle multinazionali fino alle piccole e medie imprese. Creare quindi degli ambiti di confronto pubblico privato per favorire la definizione di forme di regolazione, in diversi settori e ambiti della tecnologia. Questa è la chiave per scongiurare il rischio di un framework normativo che non tenga conto di eventuali interdipendenze. Come si fa? Mai sentito parlare di medicina di precisione o agricoltura di precisione? Nato sull'onda di questi concetti si sta facendo largo nel dibattito europeo il termine Precision Regulation, un modello di approccio alla regolamentazione mirata e commisurata ai livelli di rischio. Questo paradigma si fonda sull'assunto per cui è necessario regolare gli utilizzi di una tecnologia a tutela degli utenti e dei loro diritti, ma non necessariamente la tecnologia stessa. L'idea è evitare che le innovazioni vengano percepite come un costo e non come un investimento. Facciamo degli esempi pratici: un approccio orientato alla precisione potrebbe essere adottato nell'intelligenza artificiale per regolare specifici casi d'uso, invece che la tecnologia stessa nel pacchetto dati, ovvero la regolamentazione europea del settore, dovrà esserci una distinzione fra I diversi ambiti di intervento in funzione delle peculiarità delle piattaforme. E ancora, per il riconoscimento facciale serve un bilanciamento accurato fra sicurezza e diritti individuali. Tra le aziende che creano e mettono in funzione la tecnologia e I consumatori che la utilizzano la fiducia è fondamentale. Per farlo però è necessario un approccio trasversale che tenga conto della necessaria correlazione fra tecnologie e riforme. Se regolatore e produttori di tecnologie si parlassero di più e meglio forse si potrebbero evitare tanti interventi normativi che rischiano di soffocare l'innovazione. Oggi di questo ne parliamo a Tecnopolicy con Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di BMI Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di IBM Italia e presidente della fondazione IBM. Eccoci, oggi siamo qui con Alessandra Santacroce, che è Direttore delle Relazioni Istituzionali di IBM Italia e Presidente della Fondazione IBM. Benvenuta! Grazie, bentromato ed è un piacere essere qui oggi. Noi in questo podcast partiamo subito da una domanda che facciamo fare al nostro ospite, nel senso che chiediamo al nostro ospite di raccontare il suo percorso professionale, quindi di come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi. Alessandra, come 6 arrivata al tuo ruolo attuale? Io se penso al percorso che ho fatto vedo 2 caratteristiche: uno è che ho fatto il classico percorso di studi per prepararmi a qualcosa che mi piaceva ma per un lavoro che ancora non esisteva E l'altro è stato l'elemento della contaminazione, perché io dopo la Scienze Politiche e un Master post universitario sono entrata nelle istituzioni e sono entrata al CNL, al dipartimento per la politica economica e rapporti istituzionali, dove sono stata per diversi anni ed ho imparato tantissimo sul meccanismo istituzionale, sull'importanza delle policy, sull'importanza dell'interazione tra aziende e dell'interazione tra aziende e decision maker. Dopo questo questo e ero convinta che avrei sempre lavorato nel pubblico. Poi per una specializzazione di uno studio che ho fatto al CNELO sono entrata in contatto con il mondo della sanità e in particolare delle farmaceutiche, dove in quel momento non esisteva ancora la figura dei rapporti istituzionali e invece quell'azienda che era tra l'altro Pfizer mi assunto per creare questo pull di politica sanitaria che che poi si è trasformato diventando il dipartimento di public at Fairs. 11 anni nell'innovazione in Pfizer, grande esperienza e poi sono approdata in IBM come direttore delle relazioni istituzionali. Devo dire che l'innovazione è stato un po' il fil rouge delle ultime 2 esperienze presso 2 grandi aziende, ma guardando indietro il percorso è stato proprio una contaminazione. Se non avessi fatto questa esperienza al CNEL probabilmente non sarei stata pronta a a crescere in questo ruolo. Quindi è stato un percorso tra l'altro che era nato soltanto dal fatto che a me piaceva l'idea di scienze politiche, non sapevo che cosa avrei fatto da grande e questo è un elemento che succede a molti anche adesso quando le discipline sono sempre più particolari e differenziate. Scegliere esattamente che cosa si vuol fare da grandi diventa sempre più difficile. Bene, noi siamo qui, questo podcast nasce con l'idea di raccontare la tecnologia sotto il profilo delle policy, della regolamentazione e anche degli equilibri geopolitici. Quindi di questo oggi vorremmo parlare con te e vorremmo partire dalla regolamentazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che è allo studio. L'Unione Europea sta provando a disciplinare questo mondo e sta cercando di garantire che nella disciplina dell'intelligenza artificiale si rispettino sia I valori fondamentali dell'Unione Europea sia si rispettino le necessità di una innovazione e di una ricerca che è ancora in fieri. Quindi questo equilibrio fra diritti fondamentali e sicurezza anche nell'applicazione di intelligenza artificiale non è semplicissimo da raggiungere. Ecco IBM si occupa di produrre e di creare dei sistemi anche di intelligenza artificiale. Come fate voi a bilanciare questo incrocio tra la sicurezza degli utenti e I valori fondamentali dei cittadini e dunque mantenere innovazione e tutela dei diritti. E' una bella sfida, partirei condividendo con te un punto: rispetto a qualche anno fa l'intelligenza artificiale sviluppato enormi potenzialità e ormai è pervasiva rispetto a tanti settori di business e tanti ambiti di nostra operatività quotidiana. Quindi c'è una grande consapevolezza dei benefici abbastanza diffusa, al tempo stesso c'è una forte domanda di fiducia. Noi abbiamo fatto come IBM alcune ricerche e c'è una maggioranza della popolazione europea che chiede fiducia e trasparenza a questi sistemi di intelligenza artificiale. In questa direzione io trovo che sia importantissimo che il regolatore, in questo caso l'Unione Europea, sia intervenuto per fare appunto questa proposta di regolamento e per disciplinare l'intelligenza artificiale assicurandosi che I comportamenti siano coerenti con quello che deve essere il fine ultimo, quindi il benessere dell'uomo e il progresso complessivo del sistema. La proposta di regolamento tra l'altro ci vede d'accordo proprio perché attua un principio che è il principio del risk based approach che un po' rappresenta questa necessità di capire esattamente I casi d'uso e di utilizzo e regolamentare I casi d'uso e di utilizzo, quindi use case, piuttosto che le tecnologie per sé. Diciamo che questo approccio della Commissione è perfettamente coerente con quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation. IBM pubblicato diversi paper e documenti in cui esplicita il concetto della Precision Regulation evidenziando proprio il punto che dicevi tu: la necessità di bilanciare la necessaria e indispensabile tutela dei diritti e fiducia da parte del consumatore con l'apertura a tutte le norme opportunità che l'innovazione, anche in questo campo, può portare. Quindi questo bilanciamento è quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation che possiamo sintetizzare con regolamenta il caso specifico, non frenare l'innovazione. Su questo tema IBM è impegnata da tempo su questo tema della policy e non solo perché già da qualche anno abbiamo annunciato dei principi che secondo noi devono guidare l'implementazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che sono, li ripeto anche se li abbiamo detti molto spesso, ma forse oggi più che mai sono utili, che l'intelligenza artificiale deve aumentare l'intelligenza umana e non sostituirla, che deve essere trasparente nelle sue finalità e che I dati e gli insight che da questi dati traiamo appartengono a chi li detiene, ai proprietari dei dati. Questi 3 principi: la finalità dell'intelligenza artificiale, la trasparenza e quindi la spiegabilità degli algoritmi che portano a certe decisioni e il riconoscimento della proprietà dei dati al legittimo proprietario sono stati principi che noi già da circa 10 anni abbiamo lanciato, forse un po' meno. Rispetto a questi principi però noi adesso abbiamo sentito l'esigenza di andare sulla pratica, quindi dai principi alla pratica e abbiamo cercato di dare una nostra visione di questa pratica strutturandola in alcuni pilastri che sono un accountability che è proporzionata ovviamente ai casi d'uso, una trasparenza che non significa svelare il codice, ma significa spiegare e illustrare materialmente come funziona il meccanismo, il sistema di intelligenza artificiale e tutto il tema della Ferness in security che riguarda ovviamente la necessità che l'intelligenza artificiale sia il più possibile scevra da pregiudizi. Sappiamo che l'intelligenza artificiale replica I pregiudizi che stanno nella mente umana e nella società purtroppo. Ecco avere un approccio che consenta di mapparli e anche correggerli in qualche modo ci fa vedere forse un pezzettino di intelligenza artificiale anche superiore per certi aspetti alle possibilità. Ti posso chiedere un esempio? Perché un esempio che molti hanno in mente sull'intelligenza artificiale è il riconoscimento facciale che in alcuni casi e in alcuni stati è stato sanzionato, è stato limitato. Sappiamo che ci sono dei paesi nel mondo che lo usano in maniera abbastanza libera e indiscriminata. In alcuni casi sono stati gli stati a decidere di fermare, di fare una moratoria sul riconoscimento facciale dei cittadini, diciamo, per la strada, per fare un esempio molto semplice. Però poi ci sono anche degli esempi di non voglio dire virtuosi, ma degli esempi pratici aeroporto comunque magari veniamo fotografati quando diamo il nostro passaporto addirittura diamo I nostri dati biometrici quindi è chiaro che nell'aeroporto c'è un livello di privacy ovviamente ridotto perché ci facciamo riconoscere con il nostro documento d'identità quindi se l'aeroporto I nostri dati biometrici intendo magari appunto il viso le impronte digitali è una cosa diversa rispetto alla strada rispetto ad altri contesti. Come si fa in questi casi quindi a muoverci fra riconoscimento facciale buono e riconoscimento facciale cattivo? Allora noi come BM siamo stati un abbiamo deciso di non procedere con applicazione per il riconoscimento facciale generico e soprattutto che presentava dei rischi in questa direzione soprattutto perché quando utilizzato per scopi di discriminazione o per appunto discriminazione razziale o di altri generi noi non la facciamo. Quindi abbiamo ufficialmente comunicato in una appunto qualche anno fa che noi non avremmo fatto un'intelligenza artificiale general generica, il riconoscimento facciale general generico, ma andiamo a valutare di volta in volta quali sono I rischi e quali sono le reali opportunità perché il riconoscimento facciale possa produrre effettivamente valore. Questo è importante proprio nell'ottica di quello che dicevo prima, cioè passare dai principi alla pratica significa anche avere un sistema che ti consenta di fare un risk assessment impact, un'analisi di impatto di rischio in tutte le fasi di sviluppo, dalla ricerca allo sviluppo fino alla commercializzazione. Infatti noi abbiamo previsto che ci sia un processo continuo di test rispetto ai bias, rispetto ai pregiudizi in tutte queste fasi, in pratica in tutte le fasi della vita aziendale così come vorremmo che ci fosse, questa è un'altra cosa che noi stiamo facendo ma la condividiamo come proposta, un referente all'interno dell'azienda sulla parte dell'intelligenza artificiale che possa supervisionare il processo in linea a queste che sono appunto le caratteristiche che abbiamo detto, il tema dell'impact assessment è fondamentale, il tema del continuare a controllare lo sviluppo di un sistema in tutte le fasi è un altro così come per esempio noi abbiamo un board in IBM a livello globale che è l'Etic Board che fa esattamente questo in concreto. Se posso aggiungere un punto, tornando al al regolamento per l'intelligenza artificiale dell'Unione europea, noi siamo supportivi in quanto abbiamo condiviso sin dall'inizio queste idee e devo dire che ci troviamo allineati. L'unica raccomandazione che in fase di implementazione vorremmo fare è ancora una volta di tenere presente che l'intelligenza artificiale vive diverse fasi, diversi momenti e quindi è molto importante differenziare le azioni rispetto ai ai diversi step dello sviluppo piuttosto che della realizzazione e I ruoli dei diversi soggetti dallo sviluppatore a chi lo porta nel mercato. Non è detto che siano la stessa persona, non è detto che le responsabilità siano le stesse. Certo infatti devo dire il tema dell'avere una visione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale è molto complesso perché ovviamente chi fa la ricerca, chi la commercializza, chi deve regolamentarla, chi deve pensarla anche a livello filosofico, a livello così concettuale sono spesso persone diverse e quindi magari non hanno tutti lo stesso approccio. Parlando di regolamentazione europea questo è il periodo in cui si è parlato molto del digital market at il DMA che è questa regolamentazione che dopo 20 anni dall'ultima normativa significativa nel mercato vuole regolare in particolare la concorrenza nel mercato digitale e in particolare la condotta dei gate keeper, che sono questi soggetti che hanno una dimensione un potere tale da avere delle responsabilità speciali rispetto agli altri soggetti nel mercato. L'Europa con questo tipo di regolamentazione vuole diventare una potenza regolatoria attraverso il cosiddetto brassless effect cioè l'effetto Bruxelles e cioè quando una regolamentazione europea è particolarmente significativa anche gli altri paesi poi più o meno si allineano a quel tipo di principi perché se vogliono avere a che fare con il mercato europeo che sono 500000000 di persone, un mercato fondamentale, tanto vale allineare la loro compliance anche nel resto del mondo. Come si muove IBM in questo nuovo orizzonte normativo visto che opera in oltre 150 paesi e dunque deve avere a che fare con regolamentazioni anche molto diverse fra loro? Intanto penso che il pacchetto dati nel suo complesso, quindi DSA, DMA, data act, DGA per altri aspetti, sia un'iniziativa complessivamente strategica dell'Unione Europea. Sono molto d'accordo su questo brasset Effect. Se tu pensi al GDPR che è diventato il Golden standard di riferimento tutto sommato è una buona idea, nel senso che armonizzando le policy e le regole degli Stati membri l'Europa acquisisce non soltanto una visione più condivisa ma anche un peso nello scenario internazionale ed è giusto che sia così. Per quanto riguarda I diversi provvedimenti, poi magari vado un po' più nel dettaglio, per IBM non è un problema nel senso che noi siamo sempre molto strutturati su tutta la parte della privacy e abbiamo in ogni Paese I nostri principi ma soprattutto funzioni dedicate a quest'area. Quindi abbiamo una struttura globale di privacy e in generale di policy anche che seguono le diverse normative. Ovviamente il nostro obiettivo è quello dell'armonizzazione perché troppe troppe idee frammentate non aiutano nessuno però tutto sommato crediamo che ci possa essere un terreno comune trasversale a tutti I paesi. Per quello che riguarda il e tra l'altro come dicevo poco fa c'è anche il nostro principio sulla responsabilità in materia di dati che al di là del fatto che al di là del del punto che ho sottolineato io ci porta a mettere in primis la legislazione del paese in cui noi operiamo ogni IBM ogni entità IBM è un'entità autonoma e e risponde e opera nel rispetto delle regole del paese in cui si trova. Quindi l'Italia piuttosto che l'Europa se quella diventasse un ambito di decisione. Io trovo che tra l'altro il provvedimento sui dati complessivo sia necessario perché è cambiato il mondo, sta cambiando velocemente, ci sono delle pratiche nuove, ci sono prodotti nuovi, ci sono modi diversi per interagire, c'è stata una tale accelerazione della tecnologia che probabilmente è importante che si faccia ordine e soprattutto che si tutelino I diritti dei cittadini in primo luogo. E ancora una volta la nostra visione è di un approccio ancora di precisione perché l'obiettivo, I dati sappiamo tutti che sono una fonte importantissima per prendere decisioni, per favorire un servizio mirato, per tutelare la sicurezza delle persone, I dati sono sicuramente un elemento importante ma richiedono anche grandi tutele per quelli che sono I titolari di questi stessi dati. Sul DSA, sul DMA, il data act, la presision regulation in questo caso è più di orientare gli interventi e la regolamentazione su quali sono veramente gli elementi differenzianti di questo nuovo contesto. Per esempio sul DMA il provvedimento regolamenta sostanzialmente I gatekeeper di piattaforme online, dove è chiaro che c'è un target che è il target B2C, quindi che si rivolge ad ampi numeri e a popolazione molto ampie ed è più complesso regolamentare e tutelare il cittadino. Soprattutto quando, come dice la proposta, l'intento è anche evitare che ci possa essere un uso distorto di questi dati o anche che si crei attraverso questi dati una competizione distorta all'interno del mercato. Allora è ovvio che in questi casi mirate per queste realtà, per queste gatekeeper, l'intervento è necessario proprio per dare regole chiare del gioco del mercato. Analogamente se pensiamo al DSA, quindi tutto il tema dei contenuti illegali online, è ovvio che c'è necessità di essere molto attenti in questa direzione, è necessario ancora una volta fare un approccio mirato sui rischi dei contenuti, soprattutto sulle aspettative dell'utente finale rispetto a questi contenuti che è anche un tema importante e quindi fare ancora una volta interventi mirati distinguendo I ruoli e ancora una volta le responsabilità. Su tutto questo tema io credo che si stiano facendo pasti avanti e sicuramente la collaborazione con le aziende per capire esattamente gli ambiti, I margini e avere un approccio costruttivo penso che sia un must adesso più che mai. Quindi abbiamo trattato di intelligenza artificiale, di MIDI e DSA Quindi abbiamo parlato di regolamentazione europea. C'è diciamo in maniera parallela o forse anche sopra a tutto questo un nuovo organismo che si chiama il TTC, il Traded Technology Council, che prova ad avvicinare le sponde dell'Atlantico e a costruire un sistema di coordinamento e di discussione continua fra l'Unione Europea e gli Stati Uniti che in realtà in questi anni hanno avuto non pochi problemi di regolamentazione differente e di regolamentazione in particolare dei dati. Come vedi tu questo processo? Come credi che sta andando? E' una piattaforma ormai stabile si incontra 2 volte all'anno con I massimi livelli del ministeriali e diciamo della commissione e dell'amministrazione americana. Sulla carta avrebbe la possibilità di incidere molto ma siamo riusciti, riusciremo secondo te a trovare qualche punto di contatto forte e a portare a casa dei risultati tangibili da questo Counsel? Questa è la speranza diciamo ricorrente e più forte che abbiamo. Io credo che le evoluzioni che ci sono state ultimamente ci hanno confermato che per fare una reale collaborazione non basta il dialogo, perché il dialogo c'è. Se poi al dialogo non c'è un conseguente comportamento rischia di essere un po' teorico. Sicuramente il TTC rappresenta un punto di partenza molto importante. La collaborazione tra Europa e Stati Uniti è sicuramente fondamentale per sostenere la crescita e lo sviluppo delle 2 entità. La tecnologia in questo è anche fondamentale per dare concretezza e forza a questa collaborazione, quindi il fatto che ci sia una volontà di condividere questo percorso di collaborazione anche soprattutto sul versante tecnologico evidenzia quanto la tecnologia può fare sulla possibilità di integrazione e di valorizzazione delle eccellenze locali. Quindi sicuramente è molto positivo e noi lo sosteniamo con molta forza e sosteniamo molti principi che sono inclusi diciamo nell'inquadramento generale di Sissi, tutta la necessità di trovare un meccanismo stabile per regolamentare il flusso internazionale dei dati, un approccio che sia inclusivo, la necessità di favorire scambi anche sul versante della ricerca. I principi in sé ci vedono molto d'accordo, siamo anche molto d'accordo con l'idea di creare questi gruppi di lavoro che sono stati recentemente definiti Per approfondire queste diverse aree noi a livello di policy raccomandiamo anche di focalizzarsi molto su 2 aree: da un lato un framework per la ricerca in cui ci sia la possibilità di una reciprocità nell'accesso dei fondi per la ricerca per sviluppare congiuntamente nuove soluzioni e l'altro è quello di creare una sorta di board che favorisca sempre più il dialogo tra chi scriverà, chi sta lavorando poi all'implementazione concreta di questo TTC e di quello che ne consegue e le aziende che possono portare un punto di vista differente. Penso che questo percorso di dialogo tra quelli che si chiamano I likemindd partner sia anche un percorso per collocare nella giusta dimensione tutta la discussione sulla sovranità tecnologica che probabilmente forse può essere ricollocata in un accordo, in un concetto di open strategica autonomi. Cioè il punto è: è legittimo e giusto che l'Europa voglia essere leader nel digitale come voglia essere l'Italia ed è anche giusto che questa leadership possa essere conseguita anche attraverso la collaborazione di partner esterni purché condividano gli stessi valori. Questo concetto di appunto condivisione dei valori può essere sicuramente il presupposto perché poi questi principi cadano a terra e per superare una visione che ormai è un po' anacronistica di protezionismo che può soltanto limitare il potenziale dell'innovazione che invece viene naturalmente dal mettere insieme le forze e le conoscenze. Se pensiamo al è un'estremizzazione, ma se noi pensiamo al Covid, che è stata una tragedia ovviamente sociale per tutto il mondo, però abbiamo visto che molte soluzioni sono nate dalla collaborazione e non abbiamo Sono stati importanti I valori che ci hanno unito, abbiamo identificato I partner che condividevano questi stessi valori e abbiamo avuto anche grande successo. Sì peraltro questo discorso dei valori in quest'anno di guerra secondo me è un discorso che forse per la prima volta in tanti anni una eco anche per la popolazione in generale. Cioè ci siamo tutti resi conto che cosa vuol dire avere un'eccessiva dipendenza da paesi che magari non sono affidabili che sono potenzialmente instabili o che hanno dei fini globali che sono contrari ai nostri valori, ai nostri principi e quindi uno dei risvolti positivi di questa tremenda guerra potrà essere che ci sarà una maggiore consapevolezza di cosa vuol dire collaborare anche a livello tecnologico con chi condivide una visione del mondo, una visione di quali sono I diritti fondamentali e che quindi appunto questa sovranità digitale non è una sovranità digitale territoriale ma è di un mondo che condivide una serie di principi fondamentali ai non negoziabili. Questo è sicuramente un discorso che forse tre-quattro anni fa non avremmo fatto prima del covid, prima della guerra, non l'avremmo vista in questo modo. Era Bene allora l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti, vi chiediamo un consiglio su una persona, su un ente, su qualcuno da seguire. Sta seguire sui social da leggere, di cui comprare I libri, di cui leggere gli articoli. Chi consiglia Alessandra Santacroce nel suo lavoro? Chi è che legge spesso e chi trova di ispirazione nel suo lavoro e nella sua vita? A parte che io adoro leggere e leggo un po' di tutto. Sicuramente c'è un libro sui fratelli Rights di McCollough che è molto bello, racconta come l'innovazione nel percepire l'aereo sia stata guidata dalla volontà di capire come si vola ed è molto bello ed è un'ispirazione per gli innovatori a mio parere, anche se è di qualche tempo fa. Per invece fare una riflessione più critica su sogni e incubi dell'età odierna io suggerisco il libro di Harari sul ventunesimo secolo che traccia alcuni scenari un po' apocalittici però secondo me aiuta molto a pensare. Se poi devo suggerire invece una cosa più così uno strumento di aggiornamento che un po' è afferente alle chiacchierate che ci siamo fatti oggi faccio un piccolo spot e suggerisco l'IBM Policy Lab che è un nostro organo di informazione proprio sul tema tecnologia e politica che poi mi sembra molto attinente alla nostra chiacchierata. Quello di cui parliamo. Grazie, grazie Alessandro Santacroce. Grazie a te. 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Questa capillarità è all'origine della difficoltà di regolare fenomeni tecnologici in modo tempestivo e completo. La complessità sta nel definire un quadro normativo che bilanciando diritti, responsabilità ed esigenze di sicurezza consenta di disciplinare l'utilizzo di tecnologie molto diverse fra loro tenendo conto della variabilità individuale di ognuna. Un equilibrio di sistema può essere raggiunto solo con il contributo di un efficace mediazione giuridica. L'approccio One size fit = regole uguali a fronte di fenomeni, rischi e modelli molto diversi è sempre più discutibile.\n\nIn un momento storico in cui il digitale con il nostro PNRR diviene abilitatore di competenze in tutti I comparti che guideranno la ripresa c'è un enorme bisogno di unire gli attori e gli operatori che si muovono in questo contesto dalle istituzioni agli enti regolatori, dagli esperti alle multinazionali fino alle piccole e medie imprese. Creare quindi degli ambiti di confronto pubblico privato per favorire la definizione di forme di regolazione, in diversi settori e ambiti della tecnologia. Questa è la chiave per scongiurare il rischio di un framework normativo che non tenga conto di eventuali interdipendenze. Come si fa? Mai sentito parlare di medicina di precisione o agricoltura di precisione?\n\nNato sull'onda di questi concetti si sta facendo largo nel dibattito europeo il termine Precision Regulation, un modello di approccio alla regolamentazione mirata e commisurata ai livelli di rischio. Questo paradigma si fonda sull'assunto per cui è necessario regolare gli utilizzi di una tecnologia a tutela degli utenti e dei loro diritti, ma non necessariamente la tecnologia stessa. L'idea è evitare che le innovazioni vengano percepite come un costo e non come un investimento. Facciamo degli esempi pratici: un approccio orientato alla precisione potrebbe essere adottato nell'intelligenza artificiale per regolare specifici casi d'uso, invece che la tecnologia stessa nel pacchetto dati, ovvero la regolamentazione europea del settore, dovrà esserci una distinzione fra I diversi ambiti di intervento in funzione delle peculiarità delle piattaforme. E ancora, per il riconoscimento facciale serve un bilanciamento accurato fra sicurezza e diritti individuali.\n\nTra le aziende che creano e mettono in funzione la tecnologia e I consumatori che la utilizzano la fiducia è fondamentale. Per farlo però è necessario un approccio trasversale che tenga conto della necessaria correlazione fra tecnologie e riforme. Se regolatore e produttori di tecnologie si parlassero di più e meglio forse si potrebbero evitare tanti interventi normativi che rischiano di soffocare l'innovazione. Oggi di questo ne parliamo a Tecnopolicy con Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di BMI Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di IBM Italia e presidente della fondazione IBM. Eccoci, oggi siamo qui con Alessandra Santacroce, che è Direttore delle Relazioni Istituzionali di IBM Italia e Presidente della Fondazione IBM.\n\nBenvenuta!\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie, bentromato ed è un piacere essere qui oggi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Noi in questo podcast partiamo subito da una domanda che facciamo fare al nostro ospite, nel senso che chiediamo al nostro ospite di raccontare il suo percorso professionale, quindi di come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi. Alessandra, come 6 arrivata al tuo ruolo\n\nSpeaker 1: attuale? Io se penso al percorso che ho fatto vedo 2 caratteristiche: uno è che ho fatto il classico percorso di studi per prepararmi a qualcosa che mi piaceva ma per un lavoro che ancora non esisteva E l'altro è stato l'elemento della contaminazione, perché io dopo la Scienze Politiche e un Master post universitario sono entrata nelle istituzioni e sono entrata al CNL, al dipartimento per la politica economica e rapporti istituzionali, dove sono stata per diversi anni ed ho imparato tantissimo sul meccanismo istituzionale, sull'importanza delle policy, sull'importanza dell'interazione tra aziende e dell'interazione tra aziende e decision maker. Dopo questo questo e ero convinta che avrei sempre lavorato nel pubblico. Poi per una specializzazione di uno studio che ho fatto al CNELO sono entrata in contatto con il mondo della sanità e in particolare delle farmaceutiche, dove in quel momento non esisteva ancora la figura dei rapporti istituzionali e invece quell'azienda che era tra l'altro Pfizer mi assunto per creare questo pull di politica sanitaria che che poi si è trasformato diventando il dipartimento di public at Fairs. 11 anni nell'innovazione in Pfizer, grande esperienza e poi sono approdata in IBM come direttore delle relazioni istituzionali.\n\nDevo dire che l'innovazione è stato un po' il fil rouge delle ultime 2 esperienze presso 2 grandi aziende, ma guardando indietro il percorso è stato proprio una contaminazione. Se non avessi fatto questa esperienza al CNEL probabilmente non sarei stata pronta a a crescere in questo ruolo. Quindi è stato un percorso tra l'altro che era nato soltanto dal fatto che a me piaceva l'idea di scienze politiche, non sapevo che cosa avrei fatto da grande e questo è un elemento che succede a molti anche adesso quando le discipline sono sempre più particolari e differenziate. Scegliere esattamente che cosa si vuol fare da grandi diventa sempre più difficile.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bene, noi siamo qui, questo podcast nasce con l'idea di raccontare la tecnologia sotto il profilo delle policy, della regolamentazione e anche degli equilibri geopolitici. Quindi di questo oggi vorremmo parlare con te e vorremmo partire dalla regolamentazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che è allo studio. L'Unione Europea sta provando a disciplinare questo mondo e sta cercando di garantire che nella disciplina dell'intelligenza artificiale si rispettino sia I valori fondamentali dell'Unione Europea sia si rispettino le necessità di una innovazione e di una ricerca che è ancora in fieri. Quindi questo equilibrio fra diritti fondamentali e sicurezza anche nell'applicazione di intelligenza artificiale non è semplicissimo da raggiungere. Ecco IBM si occupa di produrre e di creare dei sistemi anche di intelligenza artificiale.\n\nCome fate voi a bilanciare questo incrocio tra la sicurezza degli utenti e I valori fondamentali dei cittadini e dunque mantenere innovazione e tutela dei diritti.\n\nSpeaker 1: E' una bella sfida, partirei condividendo con te un punto: rispetto a qualche anno fa l'intelligenza artificiale sviluppato enormi potenzialità e ormai è pervasiva rispetto a tanti settori di business e tanti ambiti di nostra operatività quotidiana. Quindi c'è una grande consapevolezza dei benefici abbastanza diffusa, al tempo stesso c'è una forte domanda di fiducia. Noi abbiamo fatto come IBM alcune ricerche e c'è una maggioranza della popolazione europea che chiede fiducia e trasparenza a questi sistemi di intelligenza artificiale. In questa direzione io trovo che sia importantissimo che il regolatore, in questo caso l'Unione Europea, sia intervenuto per fare appunto questa proposta di regolamento e per disciplinare l'intelligenza artificiale assicurandosi che I comportamenti siano coerenti con quello che deve essere il fine ultimo, quindi il benessere dell'uomo e il progresso complessivo del sistema. La proposta di regolamento tra l'altro ci vede d'accordo proprio perché attua un principio che è il principio del risk based approach che un po' rappresenta questa necessità di capire esattamente I casi d'uso e di utilizzo e regolamentare I casi d'uso e di utilizzo, quindi use case, piuttosto che le tecnologie per sé.\n\nDiciamo che questo approccio della Commissione è perfettamente coerente con quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation. IBM pubblicato diversi paper e documenti in cui esplicita il concetto della Precision Regulation evidenziando proprio il punto che dicevi tu: la necessità di bilanciare la necessaria e indispensabile tutela dei diritti e fiducia da parte del consumatore con l'apertura a tutte le norme opportunità che l'innovazione, anche in questo campo, può portare. Quindi questo bilanciamento è quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation che possiamo sintetizzare con regolamenta il caso specifico, non frenare l'innovazione. Su questo tema IBM è impegnata da tempo su questo tema della policy e non solo perché già da qualche anno abbiamo annunciato dei principi che secondo noi devono guidare l'implementazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che sono, li ripeto anche se li abbiamo detti molto spesso, ma forse oggi più che mai sono utili, che l'intelligenza artificiale deve aumentare l'intelligenza umana e non sostituirla, che deve essere trasparente nelle sue finalità e che I dati e gli insight che da questi dati traiamo appartengono a chi li detiene, ai proprietari dei dati. Questi 3 principi: la finalità dell'intelligenza artificiale, la trasparenza e quindi la spiegabilità degli algoritmi che portano a certe decisioni e il riconoscimento della proprietà dei dati al legittimo proprietario sono stati principi che noi già da circa 10 anni abbiamo lanciato, forse un po' meno.\n\nRispetto a questi principi però noi adesso abbiamo sentito l'esigenza di andare sulla pratica, quindi dai principi alla pratica e abbiamo cercato di dare una nostra visione di questa pratica strutturandola in alcuni pilastri che sono un accountability che è proporzionata ovviamente ai casi d'uso, una trasparenza che non significa svelare il codice, ma significa spiegare e illustrare materialmente come funziona il meccanismo, il sistema di intelligenza artificiale e tutto il tema della Ferness in security che riguarda ovviamente la necessità che l'intelligenza artificiale sia il più possibile scevra da pregiudizi. Sappiamo che l'intelligenza artificiale replica I pregiudizi che stanno nella mente umana e nella società purtroppo. Ecco avere un approccio che consenta di mapparli e anche correggerli in qualche modo ci fa vedere forse un pezzettino di intelligenza artificiale anche superiore per certi aspetti alle possibilità.\n\nSpeaker 0: Ti posso chiedere un esempio? Perché un esempio che molti hanno in mente sull'intelligenza artificiale è il riconoscimento facciale che in alcuni casi e in alcuni stati è stato sanzionato, è stato limitato. Sappiamo che ci sono dei paesi nel mondo che lo usano in maniera abbastanza libera e indiscriminata. In alcuni casi sono stati gli stati a decidere di fermare, di fare una moratoria sul riconoscimento facciale dei cittadini, diciamo, per la strada, per fare un esempio molto semplice. Però poi ci sono anche degli esempi di non voglio dire virtuosi, ma degli esempi pratici aeroporto comunque magari veniamo fotografati quando diamo il nostro passaporto addirittura diamo I nostri dati biometrici quindi è chiaro che nell'aeroporto c'è un livello di privacy ovviamente ridotto perché ci facciamo riconoscere con il nostro documento d'identità quindi se l'aeroporto I nostri dati biometrici intendo magari appunto il viso le impronte digitali è una cosa diversa rispetto alla strada rispetto ad altri contesti.\n\nCome si fa in questi casi quindi a muoverci fra riconoscimento facciale buono e riconoscimento facciale cattivo?\n\nSpeaker 1: Allora noi come BM siamo stati un abbiamo deciso di non procedere con applicazione per il riconoscimento facciale generico e soprattutto che presentava dei rischi in questa direzione soprattutto perché quando utilizzato per scopi di discriminazione o per appunto discriminazione razziale o di altri generi noi non la facciamo. Quindi abbiamo ufficialmente comunicato in una appunto qualche anno fa che noi non avremmo fatto un'intelligenza artificiale general generica, il riconoscimento facciale general generico, ma andiamo a valutare di volta in volta quali sono I rischi e quali sono le reali opportunità perché il riconoscimento facciale possa produrre effettivamente valore. Questo è importante proprio nell'ottica di quello che dicevo prima, cioè passare dai principi alla pratica significa anche avere un sistema che ti consenta di fare un risk assessment impact, un'analisi di impatto di rischio in tutte le fasi di sviluppo, dalla ricerca allo sviluppo fino alla commercializzazione. Infatti noi abbiamo previsto che ci sia un processo continuo di test rispetto ai bias, rispetto ai pregiudizi in tutte queste fasi, in pratica in tutte le fasi della vita aziendale così come vorremmo che ci fosse, questa è un'altra cosa che noi stiamo facendo ma la condividiamo come proposta, un referente all'interno dell'azienda sulla parte dell'intelligenza artificiale che possa supervisionare il processo in linea a queste che sono appunto le caratteristiche che abbiamo detto, il tema dell'impact assessment è fondamentale, il tema del continuare a controllare lo sviluppo di un sistema in tutte le fasi è un altro così come per esempio noi abbiamo un board in IBM a livello globale che è l'Etic Board che fa esattamente questo in concreto.\n\nSe posso aggiungere un punto, tornando al al regolamento per l'intelligenza artificiale dell'Unione europea, noi siamo supportivi in quanto abbiamo condiviso sin dall'inizio queste idee e devo dire che ci troviamo allineati. L'unica raccomandazione che in fase di implementazione vorremmo fare è ancora una volta di tenere presente che l'intelligenza artificiale vive diverse fasi, diversi momenti e quindi è molto importante differenziare le azioni rispetto ai ai diversi step dello sviluppo piuttosto che della realizzazione e I ruoli dei diversi soggetti dallo sviluppatore a chi lo porta nel mercato. Non è detto che siano la stessa persona, non è detto che le responsabilità siano le stesse.\n\nSpeaker 0: Certo infatti devo dire il tema dell'avere una visione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale è molto complesso perché ovviamente chi fa la ricerca, chi la commercializza, chi deve regolamentarla, chi deve pensarla anche a livello filosofico, a livello così concettuale sono spesso persone diverse e quindi magari non hanno tutti lo stesso approccio. Parlando di regolamentazione europea questo è il periodo in cui si è parlato molto del digital market at il DMA che è questa regolamentazione che dopo 20 anni dall'ultima normativa significativa nel mercato vuole regolare in particolare la concorrenza nel mercato digitale e in particolare la condotta dei gate keeper, che sono questi soggetti che hanno una dimensione un potere tale da avere delle responsabilità speciali rispetto agli altri soggetti nel mercato. L'Europa con questo tipo di regolamentazione vuole diventare una potenza regolatoria attraverso il cosiddetto brassless effect cioè l'effetto Bruxelles e cioè quando una regolamentazione europea è particolarmente significativa anche gli altri paesi poi più o meno si allineano a quel tipo di principi perché se vogliono avere a che fare con il mercato europeo che sono 500000000 di persone, un mercato fondamentale, tanto vale allineare la loro compliance anche nel resto del mondo. Come si muove IBM in questo nuovo orizzonte normativo visto che opera in oltre 150 paesi e dunque deve avere a che fare con regolamentazioni anche molto diverse fra loro?\n\nSpeaker 1: Intanto penso che il pacchetto dati nel suo complesso, quindi DSA, DMA, data act, DGA per altri aspetti, sia un'iniziativa complessivamente strategica dell'Unione Europea. Sono molto d'accordo su questo brasset Effect. Se tu pensi al GDPR che è diventato il Golden standard di riferimento tutto sommato è una buona idea, nel senso che armonizzando le policy e le regole degli Stati membri l'Europa acquisisce non soltanto una visione più condivisa ma anche un peso nello scenario internazionale ed è giusto che sia così. Per quanto riguarda I diversi provvedimenti, poi magari vado un po' più nel dettaglio, per IBM non è un problema nel senso che noi siamo sempre molto strutturati su tutta la parte della privacy e abbiamo in ogni Paese I nostri principi ma soprattutto funzioni dedicate a quest'area. Quindi abbiamo una struttura globale di privacy e in generale di policy anche che seguono le diverse normative.\n\nOvviamente il nostro obiettivo è quello dell'armonizzazione perché troppe troppe idee frammentate non aiutano nessuno però tutto sommato crediamo che ci possa essere un terreno comune trasversale a tutti I paesi. Per quello che riguarda il e tra l'altro come dicevo poco fa c'è anche il nostro principio sulla responsabilità in materia di dati che al di là del fatto che al di là del del punto che ho sottolineato io ci porta a mettere in primis la legislazione del paese in cui noi operiamo ogni IBM ogni entità IBM è un'entità autonoma e e risponde e opera nel rispetto delle regole del paese in cui si trova. Quindi l'Italia piuttosto che l'Europa se quella diventasse un ambito di decisione. Io trovo che tra l'altro il provvedimento sui dati complessivo sia necessario perché è cambiato il mondo, sta cambiando velocemente, ci sono delle pratiche nuove, ci sono prodotti nuovi, ci sono modi diversi per interagire, c'è stata una tale accelerazione della tecnologia che probabilmente è importante che si faccia ordine e soprattutto che si tutelino I diritti dei cittadini in primo luogo. E ancora una volta la nostra visione è di un approccio ancora di precisione perché l'obiettivo, I dati sappiamo tutti che sono una fonte importantissima per prendere decisioni, per favorire un servizio mirato, per tutelare la sicurezza delle persone, I dati sono sicuramente un elemento importante ma richiedono anche grandi tutele per quelli che sono I titolari di questi stessi dati.\n\nSul DSA, sul DMA, il data act, la presision regulation in questo caso è più di orientare gli interventi e la regolamentazione su quali sono veramente gli elementi differenzianti di questo nuovo contesto. Per esempio sul DMA il provvedimento regolamenta sostanzialmente I gatekeeper di piattaforme online, dove è chiaro che c'è un target che è il target B2C, quindi che si rivolge ad ampi numeri e a popolazione molto ampie ed è più complesso regolamentare e tutelare il cittadino. Soprattutto quando, come dice la proposta, l'intento è anche evitare che ci possa essere un uso distorto di questi dati o anche che si crei attraverso questi dati una competizione distorta all'interno del mercato. Allora è ovvio che in questi casi mirate per queste realtà, per queste gatekeeper, l'intervento è necessario proprio per dare regole chiare del gioco del mercato. Analogamente se pensiamo al DSA, quindi tutto il tema dei contenuti illegali online, è ovvio che c'è necessità di essere molto attenti in questa direzione, è necessario ancora una volta fare un approccio mirato sui rischi dei contenuti, soprattutto sulle aspettative dell'utente finale rispetto a questi contenuti che è anche un tema importante e quindi fare ancora una volta interventi mirati distinguendo I ruoli e ancora una volta le responsabilità.\n\nSu tutto questo tema io credo che si stiano facendo pasti avanti e sicuramente la collaborazione con le aziende per capire esattamente gli ambiti, I margini e avere un approccio costruttivo penso che sia un must adesso più che mai.\n\nSpeaker 0: Quindi abbiamo trattato di intelligenza artificiale, di MIDI e DSA Quindi abbiamo parlato di regolamentazione europea. C'è diciamo in maniera parallela o forse anche sopra a tutto questo un nuovo organismo che si chiama il TTC, il Traded Technology Council, che prova ad avvicinare le sponde dell'Atlantico e a costruire un sistema di coordinamento e di discussione continua fra l'Unione Europea e gli Stati Uniti che in realtà in questi anni hanno avuto non pochi problemi di regolamentazione differente e di regolamentazione in particolare dei dati. Come vedi tu questo processo? Come credi che sta andando? E' una piattaforma ormai stabile si incontra 2 volte all'anno con I massimi livelli del ministeriali e diciamo della commissione e dell'amministrazione americana.\n\nSulla carta avrebbe la possibilità di incidere molto ma siamo riusciti, riusciremo secondo te a trovare qualche punto di contatto forte e a portare a casa dei risultati tangibili da questo Counsel?\n\nSpeaker 1: Questa è la speranza diciamo ricorrente e più forte che abbiamo. Io credo che le evoluzioni che ci sono state ultimamente ci hanno confermato che per fare una reale collaborazione non basta il dialogo, perché il dialogo c'è. Se poi al dialogo non c'è un conseguente comportamento rischia di essere un po' teorico. Sicuramente il TTC rappresenta un punto di partenza molto importante. La collaborazione tra Europa e Stati Uniti è sicuramente fondamentale per sostenere la crescita e lo sviluppo delle 2 entità.\n\nLa tecnologia in questo è anche fondamentale per dare concretezza e forza a questa collaborazione, quindi il fatto che ci sia una volontà di condividere questo percorso di collaborazione anche soprattutto sul versante tecnologico evidenzia quanto la tecnologia può fare sulla possibilità di integrazione e di valorizzazione delle eccellenze locali. Quindi sicuramente è molto positivo e noi lo sosteniamo con molta forza e sosteniamo molti principi che sono inclusi diciamo nell'inquadramento generale di Sissi, tutta la necessità di trovare un meccanismo stabile per regolamentare il flusso internazionale dei dati, un approccio che sia inclusivo, la necessità di favorire scambi anche sul versante della ricerca. I principi in sé ci vedono molto d'accordo, siamo anche molto d'accordo con l'idea di creare questi gruppi di lavoro che sono stati recentemente definiti Per approfondire queste diverse aree noi a livello di policy raccomandiamo anche di focalizzarsi molto su 2 aree: da un lato un framework per la ricerca in cui ci sia la possibilità di una reciprocità nell'accesso dei fondi per la ricerca per sviluppare congiuntamente nuove soluzioni e l'altro è quello di creare una sorta di board che favorisca sempre più il dialogo tra chi scriverà, chi sta lavorando poi all'implementazione concreta di questo TTC e di quello che ne consegue e le aziende che possono portare un punto di vista differente.\n\nPenso che questo percorso di dialogo tra quelli che si chiamano I likemindd partner sia anche un percorso per collocare nella giusta dimensione tutta la discussione sulla sovranità tecnologica che probabilmente forse può essere ricollocata in un accordo, in un concetto di open strategica autonomi. Cioè il punto è: è legittimo e giusto che l'Europa voglia essere leader nel digitale come voglia essere l'Italia ed è anche giusto che questa leadership possa essere conseguita anche attraverso la collaborazione di partner esterni purché condividano gli stessi valori. Questo concetto di appunto condivisione dei valori può essere sicuramente il presupposto perché poi questi principi cadano a terra e per superare una visione che ormai è un po' anacronistica di protezionismo che può soltanto limitare il potenziale dell'innovazione che invece viene naturalmente dal mettere insieme le forze e le conoscenze. Se pensiamo al è un'estremizzazione, ma se noi pensiamo al Covid, che è stata una tragedia ovviamente sociale per tutto il mondo, però abbiamo visto che molte soluzioni sono nate dalla collaborazione e non abbiamo Sono stati importanti I valori che ci hanno unito, abbiamo identificato I partner che condividevano questi stessi valori e abbiamo avuto anche grande successo.\n\nSpeaker 0: Sì peraltro questo discorso dei valori in quest'anno di guerra secondo me è un discorso che forse per la prima volta in tanti anni una eco anche per la popolazione in generale. Cioè ci siamo tutti resi conto che cosa vuol dire avere un'eccessiva dipendenza da paesi che magari non sono affidabili che sono potenzialmente instabili o che hanno dei fini globali che sono contrari ai nostri valori, ai nostri principi e quindi uno dei risvolti positivi di questa tremenda guerra potrà essere che ci sarà una maggiore consapevolezza di cosa vuol dire collaborare anche a livello tecnologico con chi condivide una visione del mondo, una visione di quali sono I diritti fondamentali e che quindi appunto questa sovranità digitale non è una sovranità digitale territoriale ma è di un mondo che condivide una serie di principi fondamentali ai non negoziabili. Questo è sicuramente un discorso che forse tre-quattro anni fa non avremmo fatto prima del covid, prima della guerra, non l'avremmo vista in questo modo. Era Bene allora l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti, vi chiediamo un consiglio su una persona, su un ente, su qualcuno da seguire. Sta seguire sui social da leggere, di cui comprare I libri, di cui leggere gli articoli.\n\nChi consiglia Alessandra Santacroce nel suo lavoro? Chi è che legge spesso e chi trova di ispirazione nel suo lavoro e nella sua vita?\n\nSpeaker 1: A parte che io adoro leggere e leggo un po' di tutto. Sicuramente c'è un libro sui fratelli Rights di McCollough che è molto bello, racconta come l'innovazione nel percepire l'aereo sia stata guidata dalla volontà di capire come si vola ed è molto bello ed è un'ispirazione per gli innovatori a mio parere, anche se è di qualche tempo fa. Per invece fare una riflessione più critica su sogni e incubi dell'età odierna io suggerisco il libro di Harari sul ventunesimo secolo che traccia alcuni scenari un po' apocalittici però secondo me aiuta molto a pensare. Se poi devo suggerire invece una cosa più così uno strumento di aggiornamento che un po' è afferente alle chiacchierate che ci siamo fatti oggi faccio un piccolo spot e suggerisco l'IBM Policy Lab che è un nostro organo di informazione proprio sul tema tecnologia e politica che poi mi sembra molto attinente alla nostra chiacchierata.\n\nSpeaker 0: Quello di cui parliamo. Grazie, grazie Alessandro Santacroce.\n\nSpeaker 1: Grazie a te.\n\nSpeaker 0: Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo, registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Il digitale non è un settore ma una tecnologia che pervade tutta l'economia.", "start": 7.52, "end": 11.7 }, { "text": "Questa capillarità è all'origine della difficoltà di regolare fenomeni tecnologici in modo tempestivo e completo.", "start": 12.175, "end": 17.715 }, { "text": "La complessità sta nel definire un quadro normativo che bilanciando diritti, responsabilità ed esigenze di sicurezza consenta di disciplinare l'utilizzo di tecnologie molto diverse fra loro tenendo conto della variabilità individuale di ognuna.", "start": 18.255001, "end": 31.81 }, { "text": "Un equilibrio di sistema può essere raggiunto solo con il contributo di un efficace mediazione giuridica.", "start": 32.03, "end": 37.01 }, { "text": "L'approccio One size fit = regole uguali a fronte di fenomeni, rischi e modelli molto diversi è sempre più discutibile.", "start": 37.295002, "end": 43.795 } ], "start": 7.52, "end": 43.795, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In un momento storico in cui il digitale con il nostro PNRR diviene abilitatore di competenze in tutti I comparti che guideranno la ripresa c'è un enorme bisogno di unire gli attori e gli operatori che si muovono in questo contesto dalle istituzioni agli enti regolatori, dagli esperti alle multinazionali fino alle piccole e medie imprese.", "start": 44.415, "end": 63.260002 }, { "text": "Creare quindi degli ambiti di confronto pubblico privato per favorire la definizione di forme di regolazione, in diversi settori e ambiti della tecnologia.", "start": 63.88, "end": 72.674995 }, { "text": "Questa è la chiave per scongiurare il rischio di un framework normativo che non tenga conto di eventuali interdipendenze.", "start": 73.534996, "end": 79.075 }, { "text": "Come si fa?", "start": 79.695, "end": 80.67 }, { "text": "Mai sentito parlare di medicina di precisione o agricoltura di precisione?", "start": 80.909996, "end": 85.71 } ], "start": 44.415, "end": 85.71, "num_words": 112.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nato sull'onda di questi concetti si sta facendo largo nel dibattito europeo il termine Precision Regulation, un modello di approccio alla regolamentazione mirata e commisurata ai livelli di rischio.", "start": 85.71, "end": 96.725 }, { "text": "Questo paradigma si fonda sull'assunto per cui è necessario regolare gli utilizzi di una tecnologia a tutela degli utenti e dei loro diritti, ma non necessariamente la tecnologia stessa.", "start": 97.185, "end": 106.405 }, { "text": "L'idea è evitare che le innovazioni vengano percepite come un costo e non come un investimento.", "start": 106.74, "end": 111.62 }, { "text": "Facciamo degli esempi pratici: un approccio orientato alla precisione potrebbe essere adottato nell'intelligenza artificiale per regolare specifici casi d'uso, invece che la tecnologia stessa nel pacchetto dati, ovvero la regolamentazione europea del settore, dovrà esserci una distinzione fra I diversi ambiti di intervento in funzione delle peculiarità delle piattaforme.", "start": 111.62, "end": 130.89499 }, { "text": "E ancora, per il riconoscimento facciale serve un bilanciamento accurato fra sicurezza e diritti individuali.", "start": 131.275, "end": 138.56 } ], "start": 85.71, "end": 138.56, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Tra le aziende che creano e mettono in funzione la tecnologia e I consumatori che la utilizzano la fiducia è fondamentale.", "start": 138.56, "end": 145.14 }, { "text": "Per farlo però è necessario un approccio trasversale che tenga conto della necessaria correlazione fra tecnologie e riforme.", "start": 145.52, "end": 152.695 }, { "text": "Se regolatore e produttori di tecnologie si parlassero di più e meglio forse si potrebbero evitare tanti interventi normativi che rischiano di soffocare l'innovazione.", "start": 152.755, "end": 161.41501 }, { "text": "Oggi di questo ne parliamo a Tecnopolicy con Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di BMI Alessandra Santacroce, direttore delle relazioni istituzionali di IBM Italia e presidente della fondazione IBM.", "start": 161.71501, "end": 170.5 }, { "text": "Eccoci, oggi siamo qui con Alessandra Santacroce, che è Direttore delle Relazioni Istituzionali di IBM Italia e Presidente della Fondazione IBM.", "start": 180.64499, "end": 189.545 } ], "start": 138.56, "end": 189.545, "num_words": 114.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Benvenuta!", "start": 189.685, "end": 190.185 } ], "start": 189.685, "end": 190.185, "num_words": 1.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie, bentromato ed è un piacere essere qui oggi.", "start": 190.48499, "end": 194.025 } ], "start": 190.48499, "end": 194.025, "num_words": 9.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Noi in questo podcast partiamo subito da una domanda che facciamo fare al nostro ospite, nel senso che chiediamo al nostro ospite di raccontare il suo percorso professionale, quindi di come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi.", "start": 194.47, "end": 209.93001 }, { "text": "Alessandra, come 6 arrivata al tuo ruolo", "start": 210.365, "end": 213.025 } ], "start": 194.47, "end": 213.025, "num_words": 46.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "attuale?", "start": 213.325, "end": 213.72499 }, { "text": "Io se penso al percorso che ho fatto vedo 2 caratteristiche: uno è che ho fatto il classico percorso di studi per prepararmi a qualcosa che mi piaceva ma per un lavoro che ancora non esisteva E l'altro è stato l'elemento della contaminazione, perché io dopo la Scienze Politiche e un Master post universitario sono entrata nelle istituzioni e sono entrata al CNL, al dipartimento per la politica economica e rapporti istituzionali, dove sono stata per diversi anni ed ho imparato tantissimo sul meccanismo istituzionale, sull'importanza delle policy, sull'importanza dell'interazione tra aziende e dell'interazione tra aziende e decision maker.", "start": 213.72499, "end": 256.31 }, { "text": "Dopo questo questo e ero convinta che avrei sempre lavorato nel pubblico.", "start": 256.93, "end": 260.93 }, { "text": "Poi per una specializzazione di uno studio che ho fatto al CNELO sono entrata in contatto con il mondo della sanità e in particolare delle farmaceutiche, dove in quel momento non esisteva ancora la figura dei rapporti istituzionali e invece quell'azienda che era tra l'altro Pfizer mi assunto per creare questo pull di politica sanitaria che che poi si è trasformato diventando il dipartimento di public at Fairs.", "start": 260.93, "end": 291.915 }, { "text": "11 anni nell'innovazione in Pfizer, grande esperienza e poi sono approdata in IBM come direttore delle relazioni istituzionali.", "start": 292.075, "end": 301.775 } ], "start": 213.325, "end": 301.775, "num_words": 198.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Devo dire che l'innovazione è stato un po' il fil rouge delle ultime 2 esperienze presso 2 grandi aziende, ma guardando indietro il percorso è stato proprio una contaminazione.", "start": 302.475, "end": 312.97 }, { "text": "Se non avessi fatto questa esperienza al CNEL probabilmente non sarei stata pronta a a crescere in questo ruolo.", "start": 313.43, "end": 323.52502 }, { "text": "Quindi è stato un percorso tra l'altro che era nato soltanto dal fatto che a me piaceva l'idea di scienze politiche, non sapevo che cosa avrei fatto da grande e questo è un elemento che succede a molti anche adesso quando le discipline sono sempre più particolari e differenziate.", "start": 323.52502, "end": 341.7 }, { "text": "Scegliere esattamente che cosa si vuol fare da grandi diventa sempre più difficile.", "start": 341.76, "end": 345.86002 } ], "start": 302.475, "end": 345.86002, "num_words": 110.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bene, noi siamo qui, questo podcast nasce con l'idea di raccontare la tecnologia sotto il profilo delle policy, della regolamentazione e anche degli equilibri geopolitici.", "start": 346.40002, "end": 357.36502 }, { "text": "Quindi di questo oggi vorremmo parlare con te e vorremmo partire dalla regolamentazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che è allo studio.", "start": 357.98502, "end": 367.26 }, { "text": "L'Unione Europea sta provando a disciplinare questo mondo e sta cercando di garantire che nella disciplina dell'intelligenza artificiale si rispettino sia I valori fondamentali dell'Unione Europea sia si rispettino le necessità di una innovazione e di una ricerca che è ancora in fieri.", "start": 368.12, "end": 391.005 }, { "text": "Quindi questo equilibrio fra diritti fondamentali e sicurezza anche nell'applicazione di intelligenza artificiale non è semplicissimo da raggiungere.", "start": 391.945, "end": 400.47998 }, { "text": "Ecco IBM si occupa di produrre e di creare dei sistemi anche di intelligenza artificiale.", "start": 401.18, "end": 407.97998 } ], "start": 346.40002, "end": 407.97998, "num_words": 120.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Come fate voi a bilanciare questo incrocio tra la sicurezza degli utenti e I valori fondamentali dei cittadini e dunque mantenere innovazione e tutela dei diritti.", "start": 407.97998, "end": 425.17 } ], "start": 407.97998, "end": 425.17, "num_words": 26.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "E' una bella sfida, partirei condividendo con te un punto: rispetto a qualche anno fa l'intelligenza artificiale sviluppato enormi potenzialità e ormai è pervasiva rispetto a tanti settori di business e tanti ambiti di nostra operatività quotidiana.", "start": 427.87003, "end": 446.375 }, { "text": "Quindi c'è una grande consapevolezza dei benefici abbastanza diffusa, al tempo stesso c'è una forte domanda di fiducia.", "start": 447.79498, "end": 454.74002 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo fatto come IBM alcune ricerche e c'è una maggioranza della popolazione europea che chiede fiducia e trasparenza a questi sistemi di intelligenza artificiale.", "start": 454.74002, "end": 467.48 }, { "text": "In questa direzione io trovo che sia importantissimo che il regolatore, in questo caso l'Unione Europea, sia intervenuto per fare appunto questa proposta di regolamento e per disciplinare l'intelligenza artificiale assicurandosi che I comportamenti siano coerenti con quello che deve essere il fine ultimo, quindi il benessere dell'uomo e il progresso complessivo del sistema.", "start": 468.23502, "end": 494.59 }, { "text": "La proposta di regolamento tra l'altro ci vede d'accordo proprio perché attua un principio che è il principio del risk based approach che un po' rappresenta questa necessità di capire esattamente I casi d'uso e di utilizzo e regolamentare I casi d'uso e di utilizzo, quindi use case, piuttosto che le tecnologie per sé.", "start": 496.08502, "end": 521.1 } ], "start": 427.87003, "end": 521.1, "num_words": 188.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Diciamo che questo approccio della Commissione è perfettamente coerente con quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation.", "start": 521.4, "end": 527.085 }, { "text": "IBM pubblicato diversi paper e documenti in cui esplicita il concetto della Precision Regulation evidenziando proprio il punto che dicevi tu: la necessità di bilanciare la necessaria e indispensabile tutela dei diritti e fiducia da parte del consumatore con l'apertura a tutte le norme opportunità che l'innovazione, anche in questo campo, può portare.", "start": 527.085, "end": 553.595 }, { "text": "Quindi questo bilanciamento è quella che noi chiamiamo Precision Regulation che possiamo sintetizzare con regolamenta il caso specifico, non frenare l'innovazione.", "start": 554.055, "end": 563.75494 }, { "text": "Su questo tema IBM è impegnata da tempo su questo tema della policy e non solo perché già da qualche anno abbiamo annunciato dei principi che secondo noi devono guidare l'implementazione dell'intelligenza artificiale che sono, li ripeto anche se li abbiamo detti molto spesso, ma forse oggi più che mai sono utili, che l'intelligenza artificiale deve aumentare l'intelligenza umana e non sostituirla, che deve essere trasparente nelle sue finalità e che I dati e gli insight che da questi dati traiamo appartengono a chi li detiene, ai proprietari dei dati.", "start": 565.01495, "end": 605.02997 }, { "text": "Questi 3 principi: la finalità dell'intelligenza artificiale, la trasparenza e quindi la spiegabilità degli algoritmi che portano a certe decisioni e il riconoscimento della proprietà dei dati al legittimo proprietario sono stati principi che noi già da circa 10 anni abbiamo lanciato, forse un po' meno.", "start": 605.02997, "end": 625.47 } ], "start": 521.4, "end": 625.47, "num_words": 226.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Rispetto a questi principi però noi adesso abbiamo sentito l'esigenza di andare sulla pratica, quindi dai principi alla pratica e abbiamo cercato di dare una nostra visione di questa pratica strutturandola in alcuni pilastri che sono un accountability che è proporzionata ovviamente ai casi d'uso, una trasparenza che non significa svelare il codice, ma significa spiegare e illustrare materialmente come funziona il meccanismo, il sistema di intelligenza artificiale e tutto il tema della Ferness in security che riguarda ovviamente la necessità che l'intelligenza artificiale sia il più possibile scevra da pregiudizi.", "start": 625.47, "end": 667.91504 }, { "text": "Sappiamo che l'intelligenza artificiale replica I pregiudizi che stanno nella mente umana e nella società purtroppo.", "start": 668.29504, "end": 675.03503 }, { "text": "Ecco avere un approccio che consenta di mapparli e anche correggerli in qualche modo ci fa vedere forse un pezzettino di intelligenza artificiale anche superiore per certi aspetti alle possibilità.", "start": 675.51, "end": 689.77 } ], "start": 625.47, "end": 689.77, "num_words": 137.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ti posso chiedere un esempio?", "start": 691.105, "end": 692.805 }, { "text": "Perché un esempio che molti hanno in mente sull'intelligenza artificiale è il riconoscimento facciale che in alcuni casi e in alcuni stati è stato sanzionato, è stato limitato.", "start": 693.02496, "end": 708.32 }, { "text": "Sappiamo che ci sono dei paesi nel mondo che lo usano in maniera abbastanza libera e indiscriminata.", "start": 709.5, "end": 714.8 }, { "text": "In alcuni casi sono stati gli stati a decidere di fermare, di fare una moratoria sul riconoscimento facciale dei cittadini, diciamo, per la strada, per fare un esempio molto semplice.", "start": 715.82, "end": 725.995 }, { "text": "Però poi ci sono anche degli esempi di non voglio dire virtuosi, ma degli esempi pratici aeroporto comunque magari veniamo fotografati quando diamo il nostro passaporto addirittura diamo I nostri dati biometrici quindi è chiaro che nell'aeroporto c'è un livello di privacy ovviamente ridotto perché ci facciamo riconoscere con il nostro documento d'identità quindi se l'aeroporto I nostri dati biometrici intendo magari appunto il viso le impronte digitali è una cosa diversa rispetto alla strada rispetto ad altri contesti.", "start": 725.995, "end": 761.855 } ], "start": 691.105, "end": 761.855, "num_words": 159.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Come si fa in questi casi quindi a muoverci fra riconoscimento facciale buono e riconoscimento facciale cattivo?", "start": 762.37, "end": 769.64996 } ], "start": 762.37, "end": 769.64996, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Allora noi come BM siamo stati un abbiamo deciso di non procedere con applicazione per il riconoscimento facciale generico e soprattutto che presentava dei rischi in questa direzione soprattutto perché quando utilizzato per scopi di discriminazione o per appunto discriminazione razziale o di altri generi noi non la facciamo.", "start": 769.64996, "end": 794.1 }, { "text": "Quindi abbiamo ufficialmente comunicato in una appunto qualche anno fa che noi non avremmo fatto un'intelligenza artificiale general generica, il riconoscimento facciale general generico, ma andiamo a valutare di volta in volta quali sono I rischi e quali sono le reali opportunità perché il riconoscimento facciale possa produrre effettivamente valore.", "start": 794.1, "end": 819.36 }, { "text": "Questo è importante proprio nell'ottica di quello che dicevo prima, cioè passare dai principi alla pratica significa anche avere un sistema che ti consenta di fare un risk assessment impact, un'analisi di impatto di rischio in tutte le fasi di sviluppo, dalla ricerca allo sviluppo fino alla commercializzazione.", "start": 820.14, "end": 840.915 }, { "text": "Infatti noi abbiamo previsto che ci sia un processo continuo di test rispetto ai bias, rispetto ai pregiudizi in tutte queste fasi, in pratica in tutte le fasi della vita aziendale così come vorremmo che ci fosse, questa è un'altra cosa che noi stiamo facendo ma la condividiamo come proposta, un referente all'interno dell'azienda sulla parte dell'intelligenza artificiale che possa supervisionare il processo in linea a queste che sono appunto le caratteristiche che abbiamo detto, il tema dell'impact assessment è fondamentale, il tema del continuare a controllare lo sviluppo di un sistema in tutte le fasi è un altro così come per esempio noi abbiamo un board in IBM a livello globale che è l'Etic Board che fa esattamente questo in concreto.", "start": 842.095, "end": 895.355 } ], "start": 769.64996, "end": 895.355, "num_words": 269.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Se posso aggiungere un punto, tornando al al regolamento per l'intelligenza artificiale dell'Unione europea, noi siamo supportivi in quanto abbiamo condiviso sin dall'inizio queste idee e devo dire che ci troviamo allineati.", "start": 896.455, "end": 912.47 }, { "text": "L'unica raccomandazione che in fase di implementazione vorremmo fare è ancora una volta di tenere presente che l'intelligenza artificiale vive diverse fasi, diversi momenti e quindi è molto importante differenziare le azioni rispetto ai ai diversi step dello sviluppo piuttosto che della realizzazione e I ruoli dei diversi soggetti dallo sviluppatore a chi lo porta nel mercato.", "start": 913.08997, "end": 938.04 }, { "text": "Non è detto che siano la stessa persona, non è detto che le responsabilità siano le stesse.", "start": 938.04, "end": 942.76 } ], "start": 896.455, "end": 942.76, "num_words": 106.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Certo infatti devo dire il tema dell'avere una visione olistica dell'intelligenza artificiale è molto complesso perché ovviamente chi fa la ricerca, chi la commercializza, chi deve regolamentarla, chi deve pensarla anche a livello filosofico, a livello così concettuale sono spesso persone diverse e quindi magari non hanno tutti lo stesso approccio.", "start": 942.76, "end": 966.87006 }, { "text": "Parlando di regolamentazione europea questo è il periodo in cui si è parlato molto del digital market at il DMA che è questa regolamentazione che dopo 20 anni dall'ultima normativa significativa nel mercato vuole regolare in particolare la concorrenza nel mercato digitale e in particolare la condotta dei gate keeper, che sono questi soggetti che hanno una dimensione un potere tale da avere delle responsabilità speciali rispetto agli altri soggetti nel mercato.", "start": 967.09, "end": 997.69 }, { "text": "L'Europa con questo tipo di regolamentazione vuole diventare una potenza regolatoria attraverso il cosiddetto brassless effect cioè l'effetto Bruxelles e cioè quando una regolamentazione europea è particolarmente significativa anche gli altri paesi poi più o meno si allineano a quel tipo di principi perché se vogliono avere a che fare con il mercato europeo che sono 500000000 di persone, un mercato fondamentale, tanto vale allineare la loro compliance anche nel resto del mondo.", "start": 998.79, "end": 1033.515 }, { "text": "Come si muove IBM in questo nuovo orizzonte normativo visto che opera in oltre 150 paesi e dunque deve avere a che fare con regolamentazioni anche molto diverse fra loro?", "start": 1033.755, "end": 1048.015 } ], "start": 942.76, "end": 1048.015, "num_words": 226.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Intanto penso che il pacchetto dati nel suo complesso, quindi DSA, DMA, data act, DGA per altri aspetti, sia un'iniziativa complessivamente strategica dell'Unione Europea.", "start": 1049.63, "end": 1062.27 }, { "text": "Sono molto d'accordo su questo brasset Effect.", "start": 1062.27, "end": 1064.6849 }, { "text": "Se tu pensi al GDPR che è diventato il Golden standard di riferimento tutto sommato è una buona idea, nel senso che armonizzando le policy e le regole degli Stati membri l'Europa acquisisce non soltanto una visione più condivisa ma anche un peso nello scenario internazionale ed è giusto che sia così.", "start": 1064.6849, "end": 1086.82 }, { "text": "Per quanto riguarda I diversi provvedimenti, poi magari vado un po' più nel dettaglio, per IBM non è un problema nel senso che noi siamo sempre molto strutturati su tutta la parte della privacy e abbiamo in ogni Paese I nostri principi ma soprattutto funzioni dedicate a quest'area.", "start": 1088.4, "end": 1107.32 }, { "text": "Quindi abbiamo una struttura globale di privacy e in generale di policy anche che seguono le diverse normative.", "start": 1108.42, "end": 1116.2 } ], "start": 1049.63, "end": 1116.2, "num_words": 149.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ovviamente il nostro obiettivo è quello dell'armonizzazione perché troppe troppe idee frammentate non aiutano nessuno però tutto sommato crediamo che ci possa essere un terreno comune trasversale a tutti I paesi.", "start": 1116.5, "end": 1132.785 }, { "text": "Per quello che riguarda il e tra l'altro come dicevo poco fa c'è anche il nostro principio sulla responsabilità in materia di dati che al di là del fatto che al di là del del punto che ho sottolineato io ci porta a mettere in primis la legislazione del paese in cui noi operiamo ogni IBM ogni entità IBM è un'entità autonoma e e risponde e opera nel rispetto delle regole del paese in cui si trova.", "start": 1133.1799, "end": 1161.66 }, { "text": "Quindi l'Italia piuttosto che l'Europa se quella diventasse un ambito di decisione.", "start": 1161.8, "end": 1166.54 }, { "text": "Io trovo che tra l'altro il provvedimento sui dati complessivo sia necessario perché è cambiato il mondo, sta cambiando velocemente, ci sono delle pratiche nuove, ci sono prodotti nuovi, ci sono modi diversi per interagire, c'è stata una tale accelerazione della tecnologia che probabilmente è importante che si faccia ordine e soprattutto che si tutelino I diritti dei cittadini in primo luogo.", "start": 1166.92, "end": 1196.43 }, { "text": "E ancora una volta la nostra visione è di un approccio ancora di precisione perché l'obiettivo, I dati sappiamo tutti che sono una fonte importantissima per prendere decisioni, per favorire un servizio mirato, per tutelare la sicurezza delle persone, I dati sono sicuramente un elemento importante ma richiedono anche grandi tutele per quelli che sono I titolari di questi stessi dati.", "start": 1196.43, "end": 1224.2699 } ], "start": 1116.5, "end": 1224.2699, "num_words": 243.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sul DSA, sul DMA, il data act, la presision regulation in questo caso è più di orientare gli interventi e la regolamentazione su quali sono veramente gli elementi differenzianti di questo nuovo contesto.", "start": 1224.4099, "end": 1245.845 }, { "text": "Per esempio sul DMA il provvedimento regolamenta sostanzialmente I gatekeeper di piattaforme online, dove è chiaro che c'è un target che è il target B2C, quindi che si rivolge ad ampi numeri e a popolazione molto ampie ed è più complesso regolamentare e tutelare il cittadino.", "start": 1246.3099, "end": 1272.315 }, { "text": "Soprattutto quando, come dice la proposta, l'intento è anche evitare che ci possa essere un uso distorto di questi dati o anche che si crei attraverso questi dati una competizione distorta all'interno del mercato.", "start": 1272.78, "end": 1288.965 }, { "text": "Allora è ovvio che in questi casi mirate per queste realtà, per queste gatekeeper, l'intervento è necessario proprio per dare regole chiare del gioco del mercato.", "start": 1288.965, "end": 1302.23 }, { "text": "Analogamente se pensiamo al DSA, quindi tutto il tema dei contenuti illegali online, è ovvio che c'è necessità di essere molto attenti in questa direzione, è necessario ancora una volta fare un approccio mirato sui rischi dei contenuti, soprattutto sulle aspettative dell'utente finale rispetto a questi contenuti che è anche un tema importante e quindi fare ancora una volta interventi mirati distinguendo I ruoli e ancora una volta le responsabilità.", "start": 1304.37, "end": 1338.28 } ], "start": 1224.4099, "end": 1338.28, "num_words": 209.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Su tutto questo tema io credo che si stiano facendo pasti avanti e sicuramente la collaborazione con le aziende per capire esattamente gli ambiti, I margini e avere un approccio costruttivo penso che sia un must adesso più che mai.", "start": 1338.845, "end": 1359.21 } ], "start": 1338.845, "end": 1359.21, "num_words": 40.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi abbiamo trattato di intelligenza artificiale, di MIDI e DSA Quindi abbiamo parlato di regolamentazione europea.", "start": 1359.21, "end": 1368.1549 }, { "text": "C'è diciamo in maniera parallela o forse anche sopra a tutto questo un nuovo organismo che si chiama il TTC, il Traded Technology Council, che prova ad avvicinare le sponde dell'Atlantico e a costruire un sistema di coordinamento e di discussione continua fra l'Unione Europea e gli Stati Uniti che in realtà in questi anni hanno avuto non pochi problemi di regolamentazione differente e di regolamentazione in particolare dei dati.", "start": 1368.1549, "end": 1403.3251 }, { "text": "Come vedi tu questo processo?", "start": 1404.105, "end": 1408.02 }, { "text": "Come credi che sta andando?", "start": 1408.42, "end": 1410.2001 }, { "text": "E' una piattaforma ormai stabile si incontra 2 volte all'anno con I massimi livelli del ministeriali e diciamo della commissione e dell'amministrazione americana.", "start": 1411.06, "end": 1421.8 } ], "start": 1359.21, "end": 1421.8, "num_words": 119.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sulla carta avrebbe la possibilità di incidere molto ma siamo riusciti, riusciremo secondo te a trovare qualche punto di contatto forte e a portare a casa dei risultati tangibili da questo Counsel?", "start": 1423.515, "end": 1439.9 } ], "start": 1423.515, "end": 1439.9, "num_words": 32.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questa è la speranza diciamo ricorrente e più forte che abbiamo.", "start": 1440.2, "end": 1444.38 }, { "text": "Io credo che le evoluzioni che ci sono state ultimamente ci hanno confermato che per fare una reale collaborazione non basta il dialogo, perché il dialogo c'è.", "start": 1446.44, "end": 1455.645 }, { "text": "Se poi al dialogo non c'è un conseguente comportamento rischia di essere un po' teorico.", "start": 1455.645, "end": 1465.16 }, { "text": "Sicuramente il TTC rappresenta un punto di partenza molto importante.", "start": 1466.18, "end": 1472.2001 }, { "text": "La collaborazione tra Europa e Stati Uniti è sicuramente fondamentale per sostenere la crescita e lo sviluppo delle 2 entità.", "start": 1472.5801, "end": 1481.585 } ], "start": 1440.2, "end": 1481.585, "num_words": 83.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "La tecnologia in questo è anche fondamentale per dare concretezza e forza a questa collaborazione, quindi il fatto che ci sia una volontà di condividere questo percorso di collaborazione anche soprattutto sul versante tecnologico evidenzia quanto la tecnologia può fare sulla possibilità di integrazione e di valorizzazione delle eccellenze locali.", "start": 1482.285, "end": 1507.6549 }, { "text": "Quindi sicuramente è molto positivo e noi lo sosteniamo con molta forza e sosteniamo molti principi che sono inclusi diciamo nell'inquadramento generale di Sissi, tutta la necessità di trovare un meccanismo stabile per regolamentare il flusso internazionale dei dati, un approccio che sia inclusivo, la necessità di favorire scambi anche sul versante della ricerca.", "start": 1508.4349, "end": 1538.105 }, { "text": "I principi in sé ci vedono molto d'accordo, siamo anche molto d'accordo con l'idea di creare questi gruppi di lavoro che sono stati recentemente definiti Per approfondire queste diverse aree noi a livello di policy raccomandiamo anche di focalizzarsi molto su 2 aree: da un lato un framework per la ricerca in cui ci sia la possibilità di una reciprocità nell'accesso dei fondi per la ricerca per sviluppare congiuntamente nuove soluzioni e l'altro è quello di creare una sorta di board che favorisca sempre più il dialogo tra chi scriverà, chi sta lavorando poi all'implementazione concreta di questo TTC e di quello che ne consegue e le aziende che possono portare un punto di vista differente.", "start": 1539.605, "end": 1593.26 } ], "start": 1482.285, "end": 1593.26, "num_words": 220.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Penso che questo percorso di dialogo tra quelli che si chiamano I likemindd partner sia anche un percorso per collocare nella giusta dimensione tutta la discussione sulla sovranità tecnologica che probabilmente forse può essere ricollocata in un accordo, in un concetto di open strategica autonomi.", "start": 1594.865, "end": 1621.34 }, { "text": "Cioè il punto è: è legittimo e giusto che l'Europa voglia essere leader nel digitale come voglia essere l'Italia ed è anche giusto che questa leadership possa essere conseguita anche attraverso la collaborazione di partner esterni purché condividano gli stessi valori.", "start": 1621.795, "end": 1639.19 }, { "text": "Questo concetto di appunto condivisione dei valori può essere sicuramente il presupposto perché poi questi principi cadano a terra e per superare una visione che ormai è un po' anacronistica di protezionismo che può soltanto limitare il potenziale dell'innovazione che invece viene naturalmente dal mettere insieme le forze e le conoscenze.", "start": 1640.21, "end": 1665.725 }, { "text": "Se pensiamo al è un'estremizzazione, ma se noi pensiamo al Covid, che è stata una tragedia ovviamente sociale per tutto il mondo, però abbiamo visto che molte soluzioni sono nate dalla collaborazione e non abbiamo Sono stati importanti I valori che ci hanno unito, abbiamo identificato I partner che condividevano questi stessi valori e abbiamo avuto anche grande successo.", "start": 1666.39, "end": 1692.9349 } ], "start": 1594.865, "end": 1692.9349, "num_words": 196.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sì peraltro questo discorso dei valori in quest'anno di guerra secondo me è un discorso che forse per la prima volta in tanti anni una eco anche per la popolazione in generale.", "start": 1693.5199, "end": 1708.2151 }, { "text": "Cioè ci siamo tutti resi conto che cosa vuol dire avere un'eccessiva dipendenza da paesi che magari non sono affidabili che sono potenzialmente instabili o che hanno dei fini globali che sono contrari ai nostri valori, ai nostri principi e quindi uno dei risvolti positivi di questa tremenda guerra potrà essere che ci sarà una maggiore consapevolezza di cosa vuol dire collaborare anche a livello tecnologico con chi condivide una visione del mondo, una visione di quali sono I diritti fondamentali e che quindi appunto questa sovranità digitale non è una sovranità digitale territoriale ma è di un mondo che condivide una serie di principi fondamentali ai non negoziabili.", "start": 1708.2151, "end": 1760.025 }, { "text": "Questo è sicuramente un discorso che forse tre-quattro anni fa non avremmo fatto prima del covid, prima della guerra, non l'avremmo vista in questo modo.", "start": 1761.125, "end": 1770.645 }, { "text": "Era Bene allora l'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti, vi chiediamo un consiglio su una persona, su un ente, su qualcuno da seguire.", "start": 1770.645, "end": 1788.025 }, { "text": "Sta seguire sui social da leggere, di cui comprare I libri, di cui leggere gli articoli.", "start": 1788.025, "end": 1794.485 } ], "start": 1693.5199, "end": 1794.485, "num_words": 206.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Chi consiglia Alessandra Santacroce nel suo lavoro?", "start": 1795.505, "end": 1799.1 }, { "text": "Chi è che legge spesso e chi trova di ispirazione nel suo lavoro e nella sua vita?", "start": 1799.1, "end": 1805.12 } ], "start": 1795.505, "end": 1805.12, "num_words": 24.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "A parte che io adoro leggere e leggo un po' di tutto.", "start": 1806.4601, "end": 1809.04 }, { "text": "Sicuramente c'è un libro sui fratelli Rights di McCollough che è molto bello, racconta come l'innovazione nel percepire l'aereo sia stata guidata dalla volontà di capire come si vola ed è molto bello ed è un'ispirazione per gli innovatori a mio parere, anche se è di qualche tempo fa.", "start": 1809.5, "end": 1832.41 }, { "text": "Per invece fare una riflessione più critica su sogni e incubi dell'età odierna io suggerisco il libro di Harari sul ventunesimo secolo che traccia alcuni scenari un po' apocalittici però secondo me aiuta molto a pensare.", "start": 1834.15, "end": 1850.405 }, { "text": "Se poi devo suggerire invece una cosa più così uno strumento di aggiornamento che un po' è afferente alle chiacchierate che ci siamo fatti oggi faccio un piccolo spot e suggerisco l'IBM Policy Lab che è un nostro organo di informazione proprio sul tema tecnologia e politica che poi mi sembra molto attinente alla nostra chiacchierata.", "start": 1851.4249, "end": 1877.205 } ], "start": 1806.4601, "end": 1877.205, "num_words": 153.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quello di cui parliamo.", "start": 1877.205, "end": 1878.345 }, { "text": "Grazie, grazie Alessandro Santacroce.", "start": 1878.6449, "end": 1880.265 } ], "start": 1877.205, "end": 1880.265, "num_words": 8.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie a te.", "start": 1880.6449, "end": 1881.5449 } ], "start": 1880.6449, "end": 1881.5449, "num_words": 3.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo, registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "start": 1884.5299, "end": 1891.4299 } ], "start": 1884.5299, "end": 1891.4299, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 7.52, "end": 11.7, "confidence": 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