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Nell'era del 5G e dei satelliti di Elon Musk penserai che internet si sia spostato nell'etere? In realtà il 97 por 100 del traffico globale funziona grazie a milioni di chilometri di cavi sottomarini posati sul fondale degli oceani. Oggi sul fondo degli oceani ci sono 436 cavi sottomarini per un totale di uno 300000.0 di chilometri, circa 3 volte la distanza fra la terra e la luna. Grazie a essi si realizzano transazioni finanziarie per circa 10 trilioni di dollari al giorno. I cavi sottomarini hanno permesso la rivoluzione di internet così come la intendiamo oggi, ma nonostante questo sono ancora poco noti I processi di posa di un cavo, I loro meccanismi di funzionamento, I legami politici e politici e geopolitici di natura strategica, I principali profili di rischio, cioè natura fisica, natura strategica, quali sono I rischi? Quella che sembra una sola attività ingegneristica in realtà è un processo che coinvolge molti attori pubblici e privati e che deve compensare interessi particolari. I cavi infatti al di là delle questioni tecnico-operative e strettamente normative sono importanti dal punto di vista geopolitico perché uniscono fisicamente 2 o più paesi rafforzando I legami: le transazioni bilaterali e lo scambio di dati. Ma in un mondo destinato a vivere nuovi equilibri è proprio il passaggio di questa gigantesca mole di informazioni a esporre I cavi a rischi di natura strategica. In caso di conflitto armato una potenza rivale può individuare come obiettivo l'isolamento delle comunicazioni del nemico con gravi conseguenze per le sue comunicazioni anche militari per l'organizzazione dei suoi rifornimenti e per la sua intera economia. C'è poi il rischio di spionaggio attraverso cui potenze tecnologicamente avanzate potrebbero cercare di intercettare le informazioni di rivali che transitano attraverso I cavi sottomarini per ottenerne un vantaggio competitivo. Insomma, in fondo al mar si gioca più di una partita perché tranciando o spiando uno dei cavi sottomarini che corrono tra est e ovest il colpo sarebbe pesante. Per questo e molto altro vale la pena approfondire tutto ciò con chi di sensori, cavi, software e algoritmi se ne intende. Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparkle Benvenuto a Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparcle. Grazie. Noi iniziamo I nostri podcast sempre con una domanda all'ospite e la domanda è una domanda molto comoda per l'intervistatore perché lasciamo che l'intervistato racconti il suo percorso professionale ci dica come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi. L'argomento a piacere quindi. Esatto. Bene, allora Grazie innanzitutto. Salve a tutti. Io sono Daniele Mancuso, siciliano, 50 anni. Da trent'anni nel gruppo Telecom con diversi incarichi. La mia carriera professionale nasce subito dopo il diploma nel 1990. Io ho preso un diploma in informatica industriale e quindi comincio subito dopo a occuparmi di programmazione software presso un'azienda siciliana che aveva una filiale negli Stati Uniti e si occupava di robotica informatica applicata all'agricoltura. Mi occupo di diversi progetti tra I quali un primo prototipo di robot per la raccolta automatica delle arance e un meccanismo di telecontrollo per alcune macchine diserbanti e antigelo. Dopo un paio d'anni vengo folgorato dalle telecomunicazioni. Quindi cambio diametralmente il mio lavoro e inizio a lavorare presso la rete di trasporto di Telecom Italia. E così continuo per I primi 8 anni, fino all'anno 2000, dove comincio ad avere la passione per quello che sono le telecomunicazioni internazionali. Quindi studio, mi informo. Guarda caso, proprio in quel periodo Telecom Italia aveva deciso di investire, insieme a capitale di ventura israeliano, in un consorzio o meglio in un'azienda privata che avrebbe dovuto sviluppare cavi sottomarini nel bacino del Mediterraneo. Guarda caso Catania, la mia città natale, era la sede del Network Operation Center. Decido di fare il salto in questa azienda che si chiamava Mednautilus. Sono il dipendente uno della filiale italiana. E da lì comincia il mio percorso che oggi mi portato qui. In Mennautilus ricopro vari ruoli. Sono il vice responsabile del Network Operation Center che viene costituito a Catania. Dopodiché passo nell'ingegneria di Rete, quindi il reparto che si occupa di pianificare e definire quelli che sono gli upgrade della Rete, se ci sono nuovi sbracci di questo cavo verso quali location. Mennautilus, essendo sempre parte della galassia Telecom Italia, poi viene incorporata negli anni successivi in quella che è oggi Sparkle. Quindi prosegue la mia carriera, mi trasferisco a Roma, divento il responsabile di ingegneria di Sparkle. Dopo qualche anno rispondo direttamente all'amministratore delegato di Sparkle per quelle che sono le attività di ingegneria e pianificazione di rete e information technology Fin quando poi qualche anno fa salto dalla parte tecnologica alla parte più di mercato e oggi mi occupo dello sviluppo di tutte le product line di Sparkle che spaziano dai cavi sottomarini alle reti IP internazionali, alle reti per le Enterprise, alla parte business voce e mobile che rappresenta ancora una grossa fetta del business di Sparkle e che sta evolvendo verso un traffico machine to machine. Abbiamo recentemente lanciato un prodotto di Global IoT connettitivity, quindi ci teniamo sempre al passo coi tempi. Bene, grazie. E allora questo passaggio è inevitabile chiediamo a Daniele Mancuso come inizia la stesa di un cavo sottomarino? Come da dove si parte? Quali sono le le fasi iniziali? Quali sono gli ostacoli principali che si devono superare e come e quali sono I primi diciamo I primi soggetti con cui si deve avere a che fare quando si decide di di far passare un cavo sottomarino da un punto A a un punto B. Bene diciamo si inizia sempre dallo studio del mercato. Costruire un cavo sottomarino significa identificare un corridoio che si presuppone che nei prossimi 10 20 anni possa indirizzare una domanda del mercato della connettività importante. Il corridoio generalmente è influenzato da elementi di crescita geopolitica. Sentiamo parlare in questi in questi mesi di Africa tutti vogliono andare in Africa perché perché l'Africa è pronta per fare il salto verso la digitalizzazione parliamo di circa 1000000000300000.000 di persone Quindi, I cosiddetti iBles, quelli che chiamiamo I fruitori dei contenuti. L'Africa, tra l'altro, è un continente vergine sotto un certo punto di vista perché la connettività internazionale è veramente ai minimi storici, ma soprattutto perché loro, in realtà, proprio per problematiche territoriali, hanno già abbracciato quella che per noi è stata la rivoluzione del mobile. Quindi loro hanno fatto il salto evitando tutto il Broad band e tutta la connettività cablata. Quindi, diciamo che nel momento in cui dovessero atterrare grossi cavi e grossi cavi sono pianificati per atterrare tra pochissimo in Africa, ci sarà direttamente l'esplosione del contenuto direttamente sui sui telefoni cellulari. Quindi dicevamo si si comincia studiando il mercato e cercando di indirizzare quelle 2 o 3 3 rotte che si ritiene strategiche per per I prossimi anni. Chiaramente poi si deve fare bisogna fare I conti con chi siamo noi. Io sono forte in quella regione dove prevedo che ci sia un'esplosione di connettività. Se sono forte vien da sé che devo investire. Se non sono ancora forte potrei decidere di dirigere la mia strategia aziendale verso quelle zone lì, quindi decidere di creare delle lega lentity in quella particolare regione o di fare delle alleanze strategiche. Dopodiché, identificato il mercato potenziale bisogna capire se si è in grado di fare quell'investimento da soli o se è consigliabile fare con altri. Generalmente quando si parla di rotte intercontinentali nessuno fa da solo. Nemmeno gli hyperscaler che sono diventati I veri player dominanti in questo mercato. Io ti posso citare come esperienza pratica quella che stiamo facendo adesso, proprio in questi mesi, con il nostro sistema sottomarino Blue & Raman, che collegherà l'India, che collegherà un Bay a Milano attraversando chiaramente acqua internazionale e toccando una serie di paesi e che avrà delle caratteristiche di resilienza e di diversificazione rispetto ai cavi passati che hanno collegato diciamo le la regione del farist meridionale con con l'Europa. Per Blue and raman diciamo noi avevamo studiato una soluzione che ci avrebbe consentito diciamo una una rotta alternativa rispetto a quella tradizionale che prevede il passaggio dall'Egitto. Storicamente noi abbiamo lavorato con il governo israeliano. Siamo stati probabilmente la prima azienda della quale il governo israeliano si è fidato per dargli tutta la connettività. Il cavo Mednautilus è stato il primo cavo che è atterrato in configurazione ad anello tra Tel Avib ed AIFA e diciamo nei primi anni di vita di questo cavo più del 90 per 100 dell'intera connettività del paese Israele era instradata sul cavo Med. Quindi diciamo anche I rapporti di fiducia, I rapporti geopolitici come si dice contano parecchio quindi noi avremmo potuto costruire una parte di questa infrastruttura da soli nel Mediterraneo e probabilmente attraversando Israele fino alla parte Giordana. In realtà però noi pur essendo un attore in tutta la parte meridionale quindi dal Mar Rosso in poi un attore consolidato, non abbiamo delle infrastrutture proprietarie. Il fatto di costruire un'alleanza strategica ci aiutato parecchio. Avremmo potuto prendere 2 strade: quella tradizionale, cioè di creare un consorzio con le Telecom dei vari paesi che il cavo avrebbe attraversato. Abbiamo fatto queste attività in passato, abbiamo cavi dove sono presenti circa 19 operatori diversi, Dei cavi che da un lato ti garantiscono una certa tranquillità nel disbrigo di tutte le pratiche relative all'approdo, alla competenza delle acque territoriali, alla regolamentazione interna del singolo Paese, ma che dall'altro lato, come tempistiche, non incontrano proprio il favore degli iperscaler e della digital trasformation come la intendiamo noi adesso. Perché chiaramente mettere d'accordo ci sono troppi soggetti e quindi per mettere d'accordo quei vari soggetti devi costruire tutta una serie di comitati e sottocomitati che hanno delle competenze specifiche e quindi per ogni competenza specifica ci sono diverse riunioni in presenza o in video che poi determinano una serie di decisioni Queste decisioni devono essere trasmesse all'organo centrale di comando, valutate, eccetera eccetera. Quindi tempistiche non efficienti però dall'altra parte una certa tranquillità. Il modello che si sta più battendo oggi è quello del mini-consorzio, dove tu metti insieme 2 o 3 che è dove tu metti insieme 2 o 3 carrier come Sparkle e magari poi un una iperscaler che degli interessi in quella regione. Questo è quello che abbiamo scelto di fare noi. Avevamo Google, che aveva chiaramente interessi di avere connettività tra l'Europa e l'India. Abbiamo trovato un partner affidabile in Omantel, che costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini. Costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini. Le nostre competenze e le nostre forze regionali si sono unite per costruire questo sistema. Questo sistema che come dicevo delle caratteristiche peculiari che non troviamo in nessuno degli altri sistemi che collegano magari Singapore con l'Europa. Prima di tutto perché a terra in Italia e non a terra in Francia. Quasi tutti I vecchi cavi della dinastia simiwi ui a Marsiglia o a Toloso insomma siamo lì atterrano in Francia quindi è vero che quando tu fai atterrare un cavo sottomarino quello che ti interessa quello che ti interessa è costruire un ecosistema di player che poi si interconnettono. E questo generalmente succede. Nel momento in cui però quell'ecosistema si ingrandisce troppo e e cambia da diventare ecosistema dominante a diventare single point of failure allora devi trovare un'alternativa. Noi abbiamo trovato l'alternativa ideale in Genova che ci permetteva di diciamo mantenere nel Tirreno una una rotta più o meno tradizionale. Però, per esempio, tutti I cavi che atterrano a Marsiglia passano a ovest della Sardegna. Noi passiamo est e quindi siamo in grado di gestire anche delle necessità di gestire anche delle necessità di landing particolari, per esempio in Sardegna o in Corsica. Abbiamo trovato in Genova l'atterraggio ideale. Quindi, questo è un primo punto di diversificazione. Secondo punto di diversificazione è: se guardi la mappa dei cavi passano tutti per il canale di Sicilia. Noi siamo l'unico cavo che passerà per lo stretto di Messina. Quindi, diversificazione ma anche latenza ridotta. Noi abbiamo risparmiato un bel po' di centinaia di chilometri e anche notevoli necessità di interramento, perché nel canale di Sicilia avremmo dovuto interrare parecchio. Abbiamo una complessità in più, che è quella di gestire la posa nello stretto di Messina. Quindi, ci sarà da interagire con le autorità portuali, I traghetti e via discorrendo. Però, una volta che il cavo è posato, rappresenta un'alternativa sostanziale. Poi, dicevo, il grande vantaggio di attraversare Israele e non di attraversare l'Egitto. Questo si porta dietro situazioni storiche, tasse di attraversamento il nostro cavo non prevede tasse di attraversamento da nessuna parte. Il nostro cavo approda in ogni punto di approdo approderà in un data center aperto Quindi non ci saranno degli operatori in cambment che ti vincoleranno a comprare da loro il transito tra la cable landing station e il point of presents ma tu nel punto di approdo potrai trovare un ecosistema aperto di operatori che hanno scelto di essere presenti in quel punto e che quindi, se io atterro una fibra, potrò comprare la connettività da ognuno di quei player. Poi, la grande scommessa di Milano. Il cavo a terra a Genova alcune fibre saranno aperte a Genova altre però la maggior parte di esse proseguirà verso Milano. Quindi il vero punto di approdo in Italia sarà Milano. A Milano abbiamo scelto di approdare in un grande data center neutrale nel quale diciamo sono presenti già una serie di di di player importanti altri ne arriveranno e da lì diciamo mhmm stiamo costruendo un'infrastruttura in fibra che che tocca tutte le altre location di Sparkol a Milano nonché altri data center neutrali quindi daremo la possibilità ai nostri clienti di atterrare o con una fibra dove vogliono loro oppure con sparuta, 10 giga, 100 giga, 400 giga dove volessero loro e poi di andare verso la big internet. Diciamo la scommessa principale è quella di abilitare Milano ad uno dei centri nevralgici della connettività europea. Perché devo dire che l'Italia diciamo noi per tanti anni abbiamo patito un pochino l'Italia a livello geografico perché non avevamo delle particolari risorse naturali, non avevamo delle particolari caratteristiche che ci dessero un vantaggio competitivo rispetto ad altri paesi. Ora ce l'abbiamo con la nel settore dei cavi sottomarini sicuramente la posizione italiana nel Mediterraneo e e in Europa è una posizione privilegiata che permette garantendo il giusto diciamo ecosistema a terra una grande attrattività per chi insomma vuole fare questo tipo di di insomma di investimenti e di scelte strategiche. Però parlando di cavi sottomarini e di scelte strategiche, se il Mediterraneo diciamo ci sembra un po' più tranquillo rispetto ad altri mari, almeno così sembra. Nel caso dei cavi sottomarini ci sono 2 rischi che sono, insomma, per ora non si sono, insomma, non ci sono stati dei casi eclatanti però I 2 rischi principali sono quello del sabotaggio e quello dello spionaggio, cioè la possibilità di danneggiare un cavo sottomarino e sappiamo appunto che passa tra il 95 e il 99 por 100 dei dati, spesso fra continenti passa attraverso I canoni sottomarini e quindi la possibilità di isolare un paese dal resto del mondo danneggiando un cavo sottomarino e poi si parla anche della possibilità ancora non così facilmente dimostrabile però di intercettare il traffico che passa attraverso questi cavi con dei mezzi sottomarini soprattutto in acque internazionali in cui ovviamente è più difficile il polising diciamo cioè la protezione e l'intervento di forze dell'ordine internazionali. Come siamo messi davanti a questi 2 rischi? Beh sicuramente allora I rischi sono reali è inutile girarci intorno diciamo esistono delle attività che possono in un certo senso mitigare allora contro il rischio di taglio accidentale dicevo le politiche di diversificazione sono quelle che bisognerebbe sempre perseguire quindi io mi ricordo anni fa ci fu una mhmm se non sbaglio era una petroliera adesso non ricordo quale quale bandiera abbattevano che di issare l'ancora e quindi percorse diverse centinaia di chilometri con l'ancora ancora abbassata e passando dal canale di Sicilia tagliò tutti I cavi sottomarini che uscivano fuori dall'Egitto e questo determinò uno scossone fu nel periodo natalizio. Mi ricordo I colleghi che lavoravano al al Provisioning e al Network Operation Center che lavorarono per tutto il periodo di Natale per diciamo garantire quella che noi chiamiamo restoration è un servizio che si vende regolarmente a chi magari della connettività su un cavo sottomarino. Questo chiaramente la diversificazione aumenta la resilienza delle infrastrutture può aumentare la resilienza della connettività che approda in un paese ma certamente contro gli atti di sabotaggio non è non è non è quello che può aiutare. Ci sono sicuramente delle attività che si fanno tramite alcuni anche alcuni dispositivi elettronici che aiutano. Per esempio noi abbiamo nel nostro network operation center in Sicilia la possibilità di monitorare varie navi tramite il loro sistema di identificazione e rilevazione tramite il GPS che permette di monitorare se le navi si avvicinano troppo ai cavi. E questo ci consente anche eventualmente di chiamare a bordo della nave per dire attenzione che state passando o siete in un'area dove c'è una concentrazione di cavi quindi diciamo avere una dialettica anche preventiva ci sono poi degli accordi con alcune forze militari che eseguono delle attività di patrolling che chiaramente monitorano la la situazione sia a bordo costa sia anche diciamo per certi per certi limiti mhmm nelle acque internazionali monitorare per intero un cavo transoceanico è assolutamente difficile sicuramente diciamo assistiamo oggi alla presenza in alcuni in alcuni luoghi particolari sappiamo nell'artico anche nel Mediterraneo abbiamo saputo la presenza di navi equipaggiate con particolari sistemi oceanografici di rivelazione che sono in grado di dettagliare con precisione assoluta la posizione dei cavi sottomarini sott'acqua adagiati sul fondo anche quelli che sono come diciamo noi interrati questa è una fonte di preoccupazione non possiamo negarlo sappiamo anche che ci sono dei mhmm dei sommergibili nel Mediterraneo che teoricamente potrebbero avere la mhmm le capabilities o almeno queste sono le speculazioni di di intercettare il traffico in maniera anche non intrusiva e quindi quello che che noi facciamo sono opere di sensibilizzazione del nostro personale tecnico che è sempre diciamo allerta non tanto per guasti o per interruzioni ma anche per minime variazioni di quello che è il diciamo il rapporto segnale rumore o I livelli di amplificazione dei vari ripetitori sommersi perché anche minime variazioni di questi valori potrebbero rappresentare che c'è qualcosa che messo le mani sul cavo sottomarino, lo sta torcendo, lo sta diciamo manipolando e quindi insomma poi stava san dirsi, si prendono le necessarie contromisure Quindi insomma il il rischio c'è ci sono degli strumenti per per rispondere e c'è una collaborazione anche con le altre le altre aziende del settore. Come come lavorate voi con perché la la la cosa interessante un po' accennavi prima quando si parlava appunto dei consorzi e quando si parlava di questo di questa procedura comunque complessa perché ovviamente comprende vari paesi, vari soggetti eccetera com'è il rapporto con le altre aziende sia con I diciamo I competitor sia anche con le aziende che lavorano nella supply chain che lavorano nella filiera della creazione e del e della gestione in particolare dei dei cari sottomarini? Beh guarda allora diciamo per quello che riguarda la parte competitor che poi chiamiamo la competition più che competizione perché è chiaro che quando costruisci un cavo dove partecipano 19 paesi e quindi 19 operatori come te devi necessariamente imparare a collaborare con queste persone. Quindi in tutta la fase di identificazione del mercato, costruzione della strategia, identificazione del modello di business e poi anche scelta tecnologica, ingaggio del partner, scrittura dei requisiti di gara, ci deve essere un livello di cooperazione elevatissimo perché altrimenti non vai da nessuna parte. La competizione poi è lasciata al momento in cui, dal giorno 0 in cui il cavo è stato posato e collaudato, allora cominciamo a bastonarci e a competere chiaramente su capability tecnologiche, su percorsi, su visione, su bundling anche con altri servizi. Il cavo sottomarino non è semplicemente fornire connettività a un player ma è anche come gli fornisci la connettività, come operi. Noi ci chiamiamo operatori perché operiamo una rete operiamo una rete complessa e quindi forniamo dei servizi human intensive che vanno a un top alla semplice connettività per quanto riguarda la supply chain mi viene da dire il livello di collaborazione deve essere ancora più estremo perché costruire un cavo sottomarino è come realizzare l'orologio svizzero. Devono andare a a diciamo al al loro posto 1000000 di elementi che contribuiscono a farti fallire il project plan e fartelo andare sul percorso critico dalla dalla disponibilità del materiale grezzo per l'armatura del cavo quando devi posare un cavo diciamo interrato o o un cavo vicino alla spiaggia aumenta il materiale che devi mettere nella guaina del cavo per la protezione quindi deve essere la disponibilità dei materiali grezzi. Ci deve essere la disponibilità dei componenti elettronici. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle fabbriche che devono assemblare questa questa componentistica. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle navi che dovranno andare a prelevare il cavo dalle fabbriche portarlo nei depositi, assemblarlo e poi andarlo a a posare questo per quanto riguarda diciamo la parte di costruzione e posa. Chiaramente ci deve essere la disponibilità di tutti I permessi per poter operare all'interno delle acque territoriali. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle aree demaniali nelle spiagge dove cavo dovrà approdare. Ci devono essere le infrastrutture di atterraggio. Ogni cavo deve arrivare in una cosiddetta beach man holl sarebbe la cameretta di spiaggia dove viene realizzato il cosiddetto giunto terramare cioè la parte del cavo viene poi giunta con la con la componente terrestre che ti arriva alla cable landing station. Deve essere presente il front-toll che è quel pezzo di tubazione che dalla cameretta di spiaggia ti porta fino alla cable landing station. Non è semplice assemblare tutte queste cose. Quindi c'è una collaborazione tra tutti gli attori di una supply chain che è anche abbastanza lunga che deve essere certosina e verificata non dico giornalmente ma con cadenza settimanale perché ogni minimo ritardo può causare un effetto domino che ti potrebbe ritardare mhmm diciamo la la la disponibilità di un approdo anche di 6 mesi con tutte le conseguenze poi economico finanziarie del caso. Grazie. Un'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti gli chiediamo di consigliare un un autore, una persona, un'istituzione, qualcuno per approfondire meglio questo argomento, l'argomento di cui sono esperti e quindi ti chiedo chi consigli ai nostri ascoltatori? Guarda, io ho anche portato una stampa qui, ho acquistato proprio la settimana scorsa, un libro che si chiama The under Sea Network ed è di Nicole Starozielsky, che è una società professor della New York University. Ho comprato questo libro non perché mi interessasse sapere qualcosa in più dei cavi sottomarini. Quello lo faccio giornalmente al lavoro e presso le varie conferenze a cui partecipo. Ma perché questo libro incrocia la dimensione storica con la dimensione geopolitica, la dimensione sociale, la dimensione ambientale che sono talvolta degli aspetti che tu tendi a non considerare o a considerare meno quando ti occupi della tecnologia del prodotto e quindi secondo me è molto interessante. Perfetto perché appunto l'idea di questo podcast è proprio quello di raccontare la policy, le regole e il sistema geopolitico che ruotano intorno alle tecnologie. Quindi molto interessante. Ti ringrazio per essere stato con noi oggi. Piacere mio. Grazie 1000 di avermi invitato. 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Se hai risposto di sì sappi che la tua email per arrivare al destinatario viaggiato su un cavo internet sottomarino questo perché I cavi insieme a collegamenti sotterranee in fibra ottica satelliti e collegamenti a microonde trasportano gran parte del traffico internet e delle comunicazioni internazionali. Nell'era del 5G e dei satelliti di Elon Musk penserai che internet si sia spostato nell'etere? In realtà il 97 por 100 del traffico globale funziona grazie a milioni di chilometri di cavi sottomarini posati sul fondale degli oceani. Oggi sul fondo degli oceani ci sono 436 cavi sottomarini per un totale di uno 300000.0 di chilometri, circa 3 volte la distanza fra la terra e la luna.\n\nGrazie a essi si realizzano transazioni finanziarie per circa 10 trilioni di dollari al giorno. I cavi sottomarini hanno permesso la rivoluzione di internet così come la intendiamo oggi, ma nonostante questo sono ancora poco noti I processi di posa di un cavo, I loro meccanismi di funzionamento, I legami politici e politici e geopolitici di natura strategica, I principali profili di rischio, cioè natura fisica, natura strategica, quali sono I rischi? Quella che sembra una sola attività ingegneristica in realtà è un processo che coinvolge molti attori pubblici e privati e che deve compensare interessi particolari. I cavi infatti al di là delle questioni tecnico-operative e strettamente normative sono importanti dal punto di vista geopolitico perché uniscono fisicamente 2 o più paesi rafforzando I legami: le transazioni bilaterali e lo scambio di dati. Ma in un mondo destinato a vivere nuovi equilibri è proprio il passaggio di questa gigantesca mole di informazioni a esporre I cavi a rischi di natura strategica.\n\nIn caso di conflitto armato una potenza rivale può individuare come obiettivo l'isolamento delle comunicazioni del nemico con gravi conseguenze per le sue comunicazioni anche militari per l'organizzazione dei suoi rifornimenti e per la sua intera economia. C'è poi il rischio di spionaggio attraverso cui potenze tecnologicamente avanzate potrebbero cercare di intercettare le informazioni di rivali che transitano attraverso I cavi sottomarini per ottenerne un vantaggio competitivo. Insomma, in fondo al mar si gioca più di una partita perché tranciando o spiando uno dei cavi sottomarini che corrono tra est e ovest il colpo sarebbe pesante. Per questo e molto altro vale la pena approfondire tutto ciò con chi di sensori, cavi, software e algoritmi se ne intende. Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparkle Benvenuto a Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparcle.\n\nGrazie. Noi iniziamo I nostri podcast sempre con una domanda all'ospite e la domanda è una domanda molto comoda per l'intervistatore perché lasciamo che l'intervistato racconti il suo percorso professionale ci dica come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi. L'argomento a piacere quindi.\n\nSpeaker 1: Esatto. Bene, allora Grazie innanzitutto. Salve a tutti. Io sono Daniele Mancuso, siciliano, 50 anni. Da trent'anni nel gruppo Telecom con diversi incarichi.\n\nLa mia carriera professionale nasce subito dopo il diploma nel 1990. Io ho preso un diploma in informatica industriale e quindi comincio subito dopo a occuparmi di programmazione software presso un'azienda siciliana che aveva una filiale negli Stati Uniti e si occupava di robotica informatica applicata all'agricoltura. Mi occupo di diversi progetti tra I quali un primo prototipo di robot per la raccolta automatica delle arance e un meccanismo di telecontrollo per alcune macchine diserbanti e antigelo. Dopo un paio d'anni vengo folgorato dalle telecomunicazioni. Quindi cambio diametralmente il mio lavoro e inizio a lavorare presso la rete di trasporto di Telecom Italia.\n\nE così continuo per I primi 8 anni, fino all'anno 2000, dove comincio ad avere la passione per quello che sono le telecomunicazioni internazionali. Quindi studio, mi informo. Guarda caso, proprio in quel periodo Telecom Italia aveva deciso di investire, insieme a capitale di ventura israeliano, in un consorzio o meglio in un'azienda privata che avrebbe dovuto sviluppare cavi sottomarini nel bacino del Mediterraneo. Guarda caso Catania, la mia città natale, era la sede del Network Operation Center. Decido di fare il salto in questa azienda che si chiamava Mednautilus.\n\nSono il dipendente uno della filiale italiana. E da lì comincia il mio percorso che oggi mi portato qui. In Mennautilus ricopro vari ruoli. Sono il vice responsabile del Network Operation Center che viene costituito a Catania. Dopodiché passo nell'ingegneria di Rete, quindi il reparto che si occupa di pianificare e definire quelli che sono gli upgrade della Rete, se ci sono nuovi sbracci di questo cavo verso quali location.\n\nMennautilus, essendo sempre parte della galassia Telecom Italia, poi viene incorporata negli anni successivi in quella che è oggi Sparkle. Quindi prosegue la mia carriera, mi trasferisco a Roma, divento il responsabile di ingegneria di Sparkle. Dopo qualche anno rispondo direttamente all'amministratore delegato di Sparkle per quelle che sono le attività di ingegneria e pianificazione di rete e information technology Fin quando poi qualche anno fa salto dalla parte tecnologica alla parte più di mercato e oggi mi occupo dello sviluppo di tutte le product line di Sparkle che spaziano dai cavi sottomarini alle reti IP internazionali, alle reti per le Enterprise, alla parte business voce e mobile che rappresenta ancora una grossa fetta del business di Sparkle e che sta evolvendo verso un traffico machine to machine. Abbiamo recentemente lanciato un prodotto di Global IoT connettitivity, quindi ci teniamo sempre al passo coi tempi.\n\nSpeaker 0: Bene, grazie. E allora questo passaggio è inevitabile chiediamo a Daniele Mancuso come inizia la stesa di un cavo sottomarino? Come da dove si parte? Quali sono le le fasi iniziali? Quali sono gli ostacoli principali che si devono superare e come e quali sono I primi diciamo I primi soggetti con cui si deve avere a che fare quando si decide di di far passare un cavo sottomarino da un punto A a un punto B.\n\nSpeaker 1: Bene diciamo si inizia sempre dallo studio del mercato. Costruire un cavo sottomarino significa identificare un corridoio che si presuppone che nei prossimi 10 20 anni possa indirizzare una domanda del mercato della connettività importante. Il corridoio generalmente è influenzato da elementi di crescita geopolitica. Sentiamo parlare in questi in questi mesi di Africa tutti vogliono andare in Africa perché perché l'Africa è pronta per fare il salto verso la digitalizzazione parliamo di circa 1000000000300000.000 di persone Quindi, I cosiddetti iBles, quelli che chiamiamo I fruitori dei contenuti. L'Africa, tra l'altro, è un continente vergine sotto un certo punto di vista perché la connettività internazionale è veramente ai minimi storici, ma soprattutto perché loro, in realtà, proprio per problematiche territoriali, hanno già abbracciato quella che per noi è stata la rivoluzione del mobile.\n\nQuindi loro hanno fatto il salto evitando tutto il Broad band e tutta la connettività cablata. Quindi, diciamo che nel momento in cui dovessero atterrare grossi cavi e grossi cavi sono pianificati per atterrare tra pochissimo in Africa, ci sarà direttamente l'esplosione del contenuto direttamente sui sui telefoni cellulari. Quindi dicevamo si si comincia studiando il mercato e cercando di indirizzare quelle 2 o 3 3 rotte che si ritiene strategiche per per I prossimi anni. Chiaramente poi si deve fare bisogna fare I conti con chi siamo noi. Io sono forte in quella regione dove prevedo che ci sia un'esplosione di connettività.\n\nSe sono forte vien da sé che devo investire. Se non sono ancora forte potrei decidere di dirigere la mia strategia aziendale verso quelle zone lì, quindi decidere di creare delle lega lentity in quella particolare regione o di fare delle alleanze strategiche. Dopodiché, identificato il mercato potenziale bisogna capire se si è in grado di fare quell'investimento da soli o se è consigliabile fare con altri. Generalmente quando si parla di rotte intercontinentali nessuno fa da solo. Nemmeno gli hyperscaler che sono diventati I veri player dominanti in questo mercato.\n\nIo ti posso citare come esperienza pratica quella che stiamo facendo adesso, proprio in questi mesi, con il nostro sistema sottomarino Blue & Raman, che collegherà l'India, che collegherà un Bay a Milano attraversando chiaramente acqua internazionale e toccando una serie di paesi e che avrà delle caratteristiche di resilienza e di diversificazione rispetto ai cavi passati che hanno collegato diciamo le la regione del farist meridionale con con l'Europa. Per Blue and raman diciamo noi avevamo studiato una soluzione che ci avrebbe consentito diciamo una una rotta alternativa rispetto a quella tradizionale che prevede il passaggio dall'Egitto. Storicamente noi abbiamo lavorato con il governo israeliano. Siamo stati probabilmente la prima azienda della quale il governo israeliano si è fidato per dargli tutta la connettività. Il cavo Mednautilus è stato il primo cavo che è atterrato in configurazione ad anello tra Tel Avib ed AIFA e diciamo nei primi anni di vita di questo cavo più del 90 per 100 dell'intera connettività del paese Israele era instradata sul cavo Med.\n\nQuindi diciamo anche I rapporti di fiducia, I rapporti geopolitici come si dice contano parecchio quindi noi avremmo potuto costruire una parte di questa infrastruttura da soli nel Mediterraneo e probabilmente attraversando Israele fino alla parte Giordana. In realtà però noi pur essendo un attore in tutta la parte meridionale quindi dal Mar Rosso in poi un attore consolidato, non abbiamo delle infrastrutture proprietarie. Il fatto di costruire un'alleanza strategica ci aiutato parecchio. Avremmo potuto prendere 2 strade: quella tradizionale, cioè di creare un consorzio con le Telecom dei vari paesi che il cavo avrebbe attraversato. Abbiamo fatto queste attività in passato, abbiamo cavi dove sono presenti circa 19 operatori diversi, Dei cavi che da un lato ti garantiscono una certa tranquillità nel disbrigo di tutte le pratiche relative all'approdo, alla competenza delle acque territoriali, alla regolamentazione interna del singolo Paese, ma che dall'altro lato, come tempistiche, non incontrano proprio il favore degli iperscaler e della digital trasformation come la intendiamo noi adesso.\n\nPerché chiaramente mettere d'accordo\n\nSpeaker 0: ci sono troppi soggetti\n\nSpeaker 1: e quindi per mettere d'accordo quei vari soggetti devi costruire tutta una serie di comitati e sottocomitati che hanno delle competenze specifiche e quindi per ogni competenza specifica ci sono diverse riunioni in presenza o in video che poi determinano una serie di decisioni Queste decisioni devono essere trasmesse all'organo centrale di comando, valutate, eccetera eccetera. Quindi tempistiche non efficienti però dall'altra parte una certa tranquillità. Il modello che si sta più battendo oggi\n\nSpeaker 0: è quello del mini-consorzio, dove tu metti insieme 2 o\n\nSpeaker 1: 3 che è dove tu metti insieme 2 o 3 carrier come Sparkle e magari poi un una iperscaler che degli interessi in quella regione. Questo è quello che abbiamo scelto di fare noi. Avevamo Google, che aveva chiaramente interessi di avere connettività tra l'Europa e l'India. Abbiamo trovato un partner affidabile in Omantel, che costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini. Costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini.\n\nLe nostre competenze e le nostre forze regionali si sono unite per costruire questo sistema. Questo sistema che come dicevo delle caratteristiche peculiari che non troviamo in nessuno degli altri sistemi che collegano magari Singapore con l'Europa. Prima di tutto perché a terra in Italia e non a terra in Francia. Quasi tutti I vecchi cavi della dinastia simiwi ui a Marsiglia o a Toloso insomma siamo lì atterrano in Francia quindi è vero che quando tu fai atterrare un cavo sottomarino quello che ti interessa quello che ti interessa è costruire un ecosistema di player che poi si interconnettono. E questo generalmente succede.\n\nNel momento in cui però quell'ecosistema si ingrandisce troppo e e cambia da diventare ecosistema dominante a diventare single point of failure allora devi trovare un'alternativa. Noi abbiamo trovato l'alternativa ideale in Genova che ci permetteva di diciamo mantenere nel Tirreno una una rotta più o meno tradizionale. Però, per esempio, tutti I cavi che atterrano a Marsiglia passano a ovest della Sardegna. Noi passiamo est e quindi siamo in grado di gestire anche delle necessità di gestire anche delle necessità di landing particolari, per esempio in Sardegna o in Corsica. Abbiamo trovato in Genova l'atterraggio ideale.\n\nQuindi, questo è un primo punto di diversificazione. Secondo punto di diversificazione è: se guardi la mappa dei cavi passano tutti per il canale di Sicilia. Noi siamo l'unico cavo che passerà per lo stretto di Messina. Quindi, diversificazione ma anche latenza ridotta. Noi abbiamo risparmiato un bel po' di centinaia di chilometri e anche notevoli necessità di interramento, perché nel canale di Sicilia avremmo dovuto interrare parecchio.\n\nAbbiamo una complessità in più, che è quella di gestire la posa nello stretto di Messina. Quindi, ci sarà da interagire con le autorità portuali, I traghetti e via discorrendo. Però, una volta che il cavo è posato, rappresenta un'alternativa sostanziale. Poi, dicevo, il grande vantaggio di attraversare Israele e non di attraversare l'Egitto. Questo si porta dietro situazioni storiche, tasse di attraversamento il nostro cavo non prevede tasse di attraversamento da nessuna parte.\n\nIl nostro cavo approda in ogni punto di approdo approderà in un data center aperto Quindi non ci saranno degli operatori in cambment che ti vincoleranno a comprare da loro il transito tra la cable landing station e il point of presents ma tu nel punto di approdo potrai trovare un ecosistema aperto di operatori che hanno scelto di essere presenti in quel punto e che quindi, se io atterro una fibra, potrò comprare la connettività da ognuno di quei player. Poi, la grande scommessa di Milano. Il cavo a terra a Genova alcune fibre saranno aperte a Genova altre però la maggior parte di esse proseguirà verso Milano. Quindi il vero punto di approdo in Italia sarà Milano. A Milano abbiamo scelto di approdare in un grande data center neutrale nel quale diciamo sono presenti già una serie di di di player importanti altri ne arriveranno e da lì diciamo mhmm stiamo costruendo un'infrastruttura in fibra che che tocca tutte le altre location di Sparkol a Milano nonché altri data center neutrali quindi daremo la possibilità ai nostri clienti di atterrare o con una fibra dove vogliono loro oppure con sparuta, 10 giga, 100 giga, 400 giga dove volessero loro e poi di andare verso la big internet.\n\nDiciamo la scommessa principale è quella di abilitare Milano ad uno dei centri nevralgici della connettività europea.\n\nSpeaker 0: Perché devo dire che l'Italia diciamo noi per tanti anni abbiamo patito un pochino l'Italia a livello geografico perché non avevamo delle particolari risorse naturali, non avevamo delle particolari caratteristiche che ci dessero un vantaggio competitivo rispetto ad altri paesi. Ora ce l'abbiamo con la nel settore dei cavi sottomarini sicuramente la posizione italiana nel Mediterraneo e e in Europa è una posizione privilegiata che permette garantendo il giusto diciamo ecosistema a terra una grande attrattività per chi insomma vuole fare questo tipo di di insomma di investimenti e di scelte strategiche. Però parlando di cavi sottomarini e di scelte strategiche, se il Mediterraneo diciamo ci sembra un po' più tranquillo rispetto ad altri mari, almeno così sembra. Nel caso dei cavi sottomarini ci sono 2 rischi che sono, insomma, per ora non si sono, insomma, non ci sono stati dei casi eclatanti però I 2 rischi principali sono quello del sabotaggio e quello dello spionaggio, cioè la possibilità di danneggiare un cavo sottomarino e sappiamo appunto che passa tra il 95 e il 99 por 100 dei dati, spesso fra continenti passa attraverso I canoni sottomarini e quindi la possibilità di isolare un paese dal resto del mondo danneggiando un cavo sottomarino e poi si parla anche della possibilità ancora non così facilmente dimostrabile però di intercettare il traffico che passa attraverso questi cavi con dei mezzi sottomarini soprattutto in acque internazionali in cui ovviamente è più difficile il polising diciamo cioè la protezione e l'intervento di forze dell'ordine internazionali.\n\nCome siamo messi davanti a\n\nSpeaker 1: questi 2 rischi? Beh sicuramente allora I rischi sono reali è inutile girarci intorno diciamo esistono delle attività che possono in un certo senso mitigare allora contro il rischio di taglio accidentale dicevo le politiche di diversificazione sono quelle che bisognerebbe sempre perseguire quindi io mi ricordo anni fa ci fu una mhmm se non sbaglio era una petroliera adesso non ricordo quale quale bandiera abbattevano che di issare l'ancora e quindi percorse diverse centinaia di chilometri con l'ancora ancora abbassata e passando dal canale di Sicilia tagliò tutti I cavi sottomarini che uscivano fuori dall'Egitto e questo determinò uno scossone fu nel periodo natalizio. Mi ricordo I colleghi che lavoravano al al Provisioning e al Network Operation Center che lavorarono per tutto il periodo di Natale per diciamo garantire quella che noi chiamiamo restoration è un servizio che si vende regolarmente a chi magari della connettività su un cavo sottomarino. Questo chiaramente la diversificazione aumenta la resilienza delle infrastrutture può aumentare la resilienza della connettività che approda in un paese ma certamente contro gli atti di sabotaggio non è non è non è quello che può aiutare. Ci sono sicuramente delle attività che si fanno tramite alcuni anche alcuni dispositivi elettronici che aiutano.\n\nPer esempio noi abbiamo nel nostro network operation center in Sicilia la possibilità di monitorare varie navi tramite il loro sistema di identificazione e rilevazione tramite il GPS che permette di monitorare se le navi si avvicinano troppo ai cavi. E questo ci consente anche eventualmente di chiamare a bordo della nave per dire attenzione che state passando o siete in un'area dove c'è una concentrazione di cavi quindi diciamo avere una dialettica anche preventiva ci sono poi degli accordi con alcune forze militari che eseguono delle attività di patrolling che chiaramente monitorano la la situazione sia a bordo costa sia anche diciamo per certi per certi limiti mhmm nelle acque internazionali monitorare per intero un cavo transoceanico è assolutamente difficile sicuramente diciamo assistiamo oggi alla presenza in alcuni in alcuni luoghi particolari sappiamo nell'artico anche nel Mediterraneo abbiamo saputo la presenza di navi equipaggiate con particolari sistemi oceanografici di rivelazione che sono in grado di dettagliare con precisione assoluta la posizione dei cavi sottomarini sott'acqua adagiati sul fondo anche quelli che sono come diciamo noi interrati questa è una fonte di preoccupazione non possiamo negarlo sappiamo anche che ci sono dei mhmm dei sommergibili nel Mediterraneo che teoricamente potrebbero avere la mhmm le capabilities o almeno queste sono le speculazioni di di intercettare il traffico in maniera anche non intrusiva e quindi quello che che noi facciamo sono opere di sensibilizzazione del nostro personale tecnico che è sempre diciamo allerta non tanto per guasti o per interruzioni ma anche per minime variazioni di quello che è il diciamo il rapporto segnale rumore o I livelli di amplificazione dei vari ripetitori sommersi perché anche minime variazioni di questi valori potrebbero rappresentare che c'è qualcosa che messo le mani sul cavo sottomarino, lo sta torcendo, lo sta diciamo manipolando e quindi insomma poi stava san dirsi, si prendono le necessarie contromisure\n\nSpeaker 0: Quindi insomma il il rischio c'è ci sono degli strumenti per per rispondere e c'è una collaborazione anche con le altre le altre aziende del settore. Come come lavorate voi con perché la la la cosa interessante un po' accennavi prima quando si parlava appunto dei consorzi e quando si parlava di questo di questa procedura comunque complessa perché ovviamente comprende vari paesi, vari soggetti eccetera com'è il rapporto con le altre aziende sia con I diciamo I competitor sia anche con le aziende che lavorano nella supply chain che lavorano nella filiera della creazione e del e della gestione in particolare dei\n\nSpeaker 1: dei cari sottomarini? Beh guarda allora diciamo per quello che riguarda la parte competitor che poi chiamiamo la competition più che competizione perché è chiaro che quando costruisci un cavo dove partecipano 19 paesi e quindi 19 operatori come te devi necessariamente imparare a collaborare con queste persone. Quindi in tutta la fase di identificazione del mercato, costruzione della strategia, identificazione del modello di business e poi anche scelta tecnologica, ingaggio del partner, scrittura dei requisiti di gara, ci deve essere un livello di cooperazione elevatissimo perché altrimenti non vai da nessuna parte. La competizione poi è lasciata al momento in cui, dal giorno 0 in cui il cavo è stato posato e collaudato, allora cominciamo a bastonarci e a competere chiaramente su capability tecnologiche, su percorsi, su visione, su bundling anche con altri servizi. Il cavo sottomarino non è semplicemente fornire connettività a un player ma è anche come gli fornisci la connettività, come operi.\n\nNoi ci chiamiamo operatori perché operiamo una rete operiamo una rete complessa e quindi forniamo dei servizi human intensive che vanno a un top alla semplice connettività per quanto riguarda la supply chain mi viene da dire il livello di collaborazione deve essere ancora più estremo perché costruire un cavo sottomarino è come realizzare l'orologio svizzero. Devono andare a a diciamo al al loro posto 1000000 di elementi che contribuiscono a farti fallire il project plan e fartelo andare sul percorso critico dalla dalla disponibilità del materiale grezzo per l'armatura del cavo quando devi posare un cavo diciamo interrato o o un cavo vicino alla spiaggia aumenta il materiale che devi mettere nella guaina del cavo per la protezione quindi deve essere la disponibilità dei materiali grezzi. Ci deve essere la disponibilità dei componenti elettronici. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle fabbriche che devono assemblare questa questa componentistica. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle navi che dovranno andare a prelevare il cavo dalle fabbriche portarlo nei depositi, assemblarlo e poi andarlo a a posare questo per quanto riguarda diciamo la parte di costruzione e posa.\n\nChiaramente ci deve essere la disponibilità di tutti I permessi per poter operare all'interno delle acque territoriali. Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle aree demaniali nelle spiagge dove cavo dovrà approdare. Ci devono essere le infrastrutture di atterraggio. Ogni cavo deve arrivare in una cosiddetta beach man holl sarebbe la cameretta di spiaggia dove viene realizzato il cosiddetto giunto terramare cioè la parte del cavo viene poi giunta con la con la componente terrestre che ti arriva alla cable landing station. Deve essere presente il front-toll che è quel pezzo di tubazione che dalla cameretta di spiaggia ti porta fino alla cable landing station.\n\nNon è semplice assemblare tutte queste cose. Quindi c'è una collaborazione tra tutti gli attori di una supply chain che è anche abbastanza lunga che deve essere certosina e verificata non dico giornalmente ma con cadenza settimanale perché ogni minimo ritardo può causare un effetto domino che ti potrebbe ritardare mhmm diciamo la la la disponibilità di un approdo anche di 6 mesi con tutte le conseguenze poi economico finanziarie del caso.\n\nSpeaker 0: Grazie. Un'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti gli chiediamo di consigliare un un autore, una persona, un'istituzione, qualcuno per approfondire meglio questo argomento, l'argomento di cui sono esperti e quindi ti chiedo chi consigli ai nostri ascoltatori?\n\nSpeaker 1: Guarda, io ho anche portato una stampa qui, ho acquistato proprio la settimana scorsa, un libro che si chiama The under Sea Network ed è di Nicole Starozielsky, che è una società professor della New York University. Ho comprato questo libro non perché mi interessasse sapere qualcosa in più dei cavi sottomarini. Quello lo faccio giornalmente al lavoro e presso le varie conferenze a cui partecipo. Ma perché questo libro incrocia la dimensione storica con la dimensione geopolitica, la dimensione sociale, la dimensione ambientale che sono talvolta degli aspetti che tu tendi a non considerare o a considerare meno quando ti occupi della tecnologia del prodotto e quindi secondo me è molto interessante.\n\nSpeaker 0: Perfetto perché appunto l'idea di questo podcast è proprio quello di raccontare la policy, le regole e il sistema geopolitico che ruotano intorno alle tecnologie. Quindi molto interessante. Ti ringrazio per essere stato con noi oggi.\n\nSpeaker 1: Piacere mio. Grazie 1000 di avermi invitato.\n\nSpeaker 0: Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "paragraphs": [ { "sentences": [ { "text": "Ti è mai capitato di inviare un'email per prenotare una vacanza in un luogo esotico e lontano?", "start": 9.84, "end": 14.58 }, { "text": "Se hai risposto di sì sappi che la tua email per arrivare al destinatario viaggiato su un cavo internet sottomarino questo perché I cavi insieme a collegamenti sotterranee in fibra ottica satelliti e collegamenti a microonde trasportano gran parte del traffico internet e delle comunicazioni internazionali.", "start": 14.855, "end": 29.994999 }, { "text": "Nell'era del 5G e dei satelliti di Elon Musk penserai che internet si sia spostato nell'etere?", "start": 31.0, "end": 36.14 }, { "text": "In realtà il 97 por 100 del traffico globale funziona grazie a milioni di chilometri di cavi sottomarini posati sul fondale degli oceani.", "start": 36.6, "end": 44.055 }, { "text": "Oggi sul fondo degli oceani ci sono 436 cavi sottomarini per un totale di uno 300000.0 di chilometri, circa 3 volte la distanza fra la terra e la luna.", "start": 44.055, "end": 52.855 } ], "start": 9.84, "end": 52.855, "num_words": 131.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie a essi si realizzano transazioni finanziarie per circa 10 trilioni di dollari al giorno.", "start": 52.855, "end": 58.46 }, { "text": "I cavi sottomarini hanno permesso la rivoluzione di internet così come la intendiamo oggi, ma nonostante questo sono ancora poco noti I processi di posa di un cavo, I loro meccanismi di funzionamento, I legami politici e politici e geopolitici di natura strategica, I principali profili di rischio, cioè natura fisica, natura strategica, quali sono I rischi?", "start": 58.920002, "end": 75.975006 }, { "text": "Quella che sembra una sola attività ingegneristica in realtà è un processo che coinvolge molti attori pubblici e privati e che deve compensare interessi particolari.", "start": 75.975006, "end": 84.68 }, { "text": "I cavi infatti al di là delle questioni tecnico-operative e strettamente normative sono importanti dal punto di vista geopolitico perché uniscono fisicamente 2 o più paesi rafforzando I legami: le transazioni bilaterali e lo scambio di dati.", "start": 84.68, "end": 97.515 }, { "text": "Ma in un mondo destinato a vivere nuovi equilibri è proprio il passaggio di questa gigantesca mole di informazioni a esporre I cavi a rischi di natura strategica.", "start": 97.655, "end": 105.91499 } ], "start": 52.855, "end": 105.91499, "num_words": 162.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "In caso di conflitto armato una potenza rivale può individuare come obiettivo l'isolamento delle comunicazioni del nemico con gravi conseguenze per le sue comunicazioni anche militari per l'organizzazione dei suoi rifornimenti e per la sua intera economia.", "start": 106.215, "end": 119.350006 }, { "text": "C'è poi il rischio di spionaggio attraverso cui potenze tecnologicamente avanzate potrebbero cercare di intercettare le informazioni di rivali che transitano attraverso I cavi sottomarini per ottenerne un vantaggio competitivo.", "start": 119.350006, "end": 130.215 }, { "text": "Insomma, in fondo al mar si gioca più di una partita perché tranciando o spiando uno dei cavi sottomarini che corrono tra est e ovest il colpo sarebbe pesante.", "start": 130.835, "end": 140.12 }, { "text": "Per questo e molto altro vale la pena approfondire tutto ciò con chi di sensori, cavi, software e algoritmi se ne intende.", "start": 140.12, "end": 147.58 }, { "text": "Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparkle Benvenuto a Daniele Mancuso, Chief Product Management di Telecom Italia Sparcle.", "start": 148.12, "end": 159.63501 } ], "start": 106.215, "end": 159.63501, "num_words": 138.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie.", "start": 159.77501, "end": 160.27501 }, { "text": "Noi iniziamo I nostri podcast sempre con una domanda all'ospite e la domanda è una domanda molto comoda per l'intervistatore perché lasciamo che l'intervistato racconti il suo percorso professionale ci dica come è arrivato a fare quello che fa oggi.", "start": 161.29501, "end": 176.39 }, { "text": "L'argomento a piacere quindi.", "start": 176.93, "end": 178.37 } ], "start": 159.77501, "end": 178.37, "num_words": 45.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Esatto.", "start": 178.37, "end": 178.87 }, { "text": "Bene, allora Grazie innanzitutto.", "start": 179.455, "end": 181.98167 }, { "text": "Salve a tutti.", "start": 181.98834, "end": 183.50166 }, { "text": "Io sono Daniele Mancuso, siciliano, 50 anni.", "start": 183.50833, "end": 187.315 }, { "text": "Da trent'anni nel gruppo Telecom con diversi incarichi.", "start": 187.935, "end": 192.19499 } ], "start": 178.37, "end": 192.19499, "num_words": 23.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "La mia carriera professionale nasce subito dopo il diploma nel 1990.", "start": 193.42, "end": 198.12 }, { "text": "Io ho preso un diploma in informatica industriale e quindi comincio subito dopo a occuparmi di programmazione software presso un'azienda siciliana che aveva una filiale negli Stati Uniti e si occupava di robotica informatica applicata all'agricoltura.", "start": 198.29999, "end": 215.645 }, { "text": "Mi occupo di diversi progetti tra I quali un primo prototipo di robot per la raccolta automatica delle arance e un meccanismo di telecontrollo per alcune macchine diserbanti e antigelo.", "start": 216.265, "end": 231.20001 }, { "text": "Dopo un paio d'anni vengo folgorato dalle telecomunicazioni.", "start": 232.44499, "end": 235.825 }, { "text": "Quindi cambio diametralmente il mio lavoro e inizio a lavorare presso la rete di trasporto di Telecom Italia.", "start": 236.405, "end": 245.88 } ], "start": 193.42, "end": 245.88, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "E così continuo per I primi 8 anni, fino all'anno 2000, dove comincio ad avere la passione per quello che sono le telecomunicazioni internazionali.", "start": 246.36, "end": 259.32 }, { "text": "Quindi studio, mi informo.", "start": 259.32, "end": 260.78 }, { "text": "Guarda caso, proprio in quel periodo Telecom Italia aveva deciso di investire, insieme a capitale di ventura israeliano, in un consorzio o meglio in un'azienda privata che avrebbe dovuto sviluppare cavi sottomarini nel bacino del Mediterraneo.", "start": 261.295, "end": 275.795 }, { "text": "Guarda caso Catania, la mia città natale, era la sede del Network Operation Center.", "start": 276.41998, "end": 282.58 }, { "text": "Decido di fare il salto in questa azienda che si chiamava Mednautilus.", "start": 282.58, "end": 285.72 } ], "start": 246.36, "end": 285.72, "num_words": 90.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Sono il dipendente uno della filiale italiana.", "start": 286.82, "end": 291.4 }, { "text": "E da lì comincia il mio percorso che oggi mi portato qui.", "start": 291.66498, "end": 294.88498 }, { "text": "In Mennautilus ricopro vari ruoli.", "start": 295.185, "end": 297.60498 }, { "text": "Sono il vice responsabile del Network Operation Center che viene costituito a Catania.", "start": 300.065, "end": 304.26 }, { "text": "Dopodiché passo nell'ingegneria di Rete, quindi il reparto che si occupa di pianificare e definire quelli che sono gli upgrade della Rete, se ci sono nuovi sbracci di questo cavo verso quali location.", "start": 304.34, "end": 316.04 } ], "start": 286.82, "end": 316.04, "num_words": 70.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Mennautilus, essendo sempre parte della galassia Telecom Italia, poi viene incorporata negli anni successivi in quella che è oggi Sparkle.", "start": 317.085, "end": 326.065 }, { "text": "Quindi prosegue la mia carriera, mi trasferisco a Roma, divento il responsabile di ingegneria di Sparkle.", "start": 326.365, "end": 331.585 }, { "text": "Dopo qualche anno rispondo direttamente all'amministratore delegato di Sparkle per quelle che sono le attività di ingegneria e pianificazione di rete e information technology Fin quando poi qualche anno fa salto dalla parte tecnologica alla parte più di mercato e oggi mi occupo dello sviluppo di tutte le product line di Sparkle che spaziano dai cavi sottomarini alle reti IP internazionali, alle reti per le Enterprise, alla parte business voce e mobile che rappresenta ancora una grossa fetta del business di Sparkle e che sta evolvendo verso un traffico machine to machine.", "start": 332.49002, "end": 378.315 }, { "text": "Abbiamo recentemente lanciato un prodotto di Global IoT connettitivity, quindi ci teniamo sempre al passo coi tempi.", "start": 378.315, "end": 386.795 } ], "start": 317.085, "end": 386.795, "num_words": 145.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bene, grazie.", "start": 386.795, "end": 387.695 }, { "text": "E allora questo passaggio è inevitabile chiediamo a Daniele Mancuso come inizia la stesa di un cavo sottomarino?", "start": 387.835, "end": 399.34 }, { "text": "Come da dove si parte?", "start": 399.48, "end": 401.4 }, { "text": "Quali sono le le fasi iniziali?", "start": 401.4, "end": 404.065 }, { "text": "Quali sono gli ostacoli principali che si devono superare e come e quali sono I primi diciamo I primi soggetti con cui si deve avere a che fare quando si decide di di far passare un cavo sottomarino da un punto A a un punto B.", "start": 404.085, "end": 419.31 } ], "start": 386.795, "end": 419.31, "num_words": 77.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Bene diciamo si inizia sempre dallo studio del mercato.", "start": 420.17, "end": 422.99002 }, { "text": "Costruire un cavo sottomarino significa identificare un corridoio che si presuppone che nei prossimi 10 20 anni possa indirizzare una domanda del mercato della connettività importante.", "start": 423.37003, "end": 438.335 }, { "text": "Il corridoio generalmente è influenzato da elementi di crescita geopolitica.", "start": 439.275, "end": 445.055 }, { "text": "Sentiamo parlare in questi in questi mesi di Africa tutti vogliono andare in Africa perché perché l'Africa è pronta per fare il salto verso la digitalizzazione parliamo di circa 1000000000300000.000 di persone Quindi, I cosiddetti iBles, quelli che chiamiamo I fruitori dei contenuti.", "start": 446.88, "end": 466.765 }, { "text": "L'Africa, tra l'altro, è un continente vergine sotto un certo punto di vista perché la connettività internazionale è veramente ai minimi storici, ma soprattutto perché loro, in realtà, proprio per problematiche territoriali, hanno già abbracciato quella che per noi è stata la rivoluzione del mobile.", "start": 467.385, "end": 482.33 } ], "start": 420.17, "end": 482.33, "num_words": 133.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi loro hanno fatto il salto evitando tutto il Broad band e tutta la connettività cablata.", "start": 482.33, "end": 487.63 }, { "text": "Quindi, diciamo che nel momento in cui dovessero atterrare grossi cavi e grossi cavi sono pianificati per atterrare tra pochissimo in Africa, ci sarà direttamente l'esplosione del contenuto direttamente sui sui telefoni cellulari.", "start": 488.435, "end": 501.735 }, { "text": "Quindi dicevamo si si comincia studiando il mercato e cercando di indirizzare quelle 2 o 3 3 rotte che si ritiene strategiche per per I prossimi anni.", "start": 503.53, "end": 515.05 }, { "text": "Chiaramente poi si deve fare bisogna fare I conti con chi siamo noi.", "start": 515.05, "end": 519.665 }, { "text": "Io sono forte in quella regione dove prevedo che ci sia un'esplosione di connettività.", "start": 519.665, "end": 525.84503 } ], "start": 482.33, "end": 525.84503, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Se sono forte vien da sé che devo investire.", "start": 526.305, "end": 528.945 }, { "text": "Se non sono ancora forte potrei decidere di dirigere la mia strategia aziendale verso quelle zone lì, quindi decidere di creare delle lega lentity in quella particolare regione o di fare delle alleanze strategiche.", "start": 528.945, "end": 542.85004 }, { "text": "Dopodiché, identificato il mercato potenziale bisogna capire se si è in grado di fare quell'investimento da soli o se è consigliabile fare con altri.", "start": 542.85004, "end": 556.385 }, { "text": "Generalmente quando si parla di rotte intercontinentali nessuno fa da solo.", "start": 556.84503, "end": 562.145 }, { "text": "Nemmeno gli hyperscaler che sono diventati I veri player dominanti in questo mercato.", "start": 562.36, "end": 567.26 } ], "start": 526.305, "end": 567.26, "num_words": 91.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Io ti posso citare come esperienza pratica quella che stiamo facendo adesso, proprio in questi mesi, con il nostro sistema sottomarino Blue & Raman, che collegherà l'India, che collegherà un Bay a Milano attraversando chiaramente acqua internazionale e toccando una serie di paesi e che avrà delle caratteristiche di resilienza e di diversificazione rispetto ai cavi passati che hanno collegato diciamo le la regione del farist meridionale con con l'Europa.", "start": 568.68, "end": 601.75 }, { "text": "Per Blue and raman diciamo noi avevamo studiato una soluzione che ci avrebbe consentito diciamo una una rotta alternativa rispetto a quella tradizionale che prevede il passaggio dall'Egitto.", "start": 602.795, "end": 619.738 }, { "text": "Storicamente noi abbiamo lavorato con il governo israeliano.", "start": 620.054, "end": 624.88995 }, { "text": "Siamo stati probabilmente la prima azienda della quale il governo israeliano si è fidato per dargli tutta la connettività.", "start": 625.02997, "end": 634.045 }, { "text": "Il cavo Mednautilus è stato il primo cavo che è atterrato in configurazione ad anello tra Tel Avib ed AIFA e diciamo nei primi anni di vita di questo cavo più del 90 per 100 dell'intera connettività del paese Israele era instradata sul cavo Med.", "start": 634.045, "end": 650.19 } ], "start": 568.68, "end": 650.19, "num_words": 170.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi diciamo anche I rapporti di fiducia, I rapporti geopolitici come si dice contano parecchio quindi noi avremmo potuto costruire una parte di questa infrastruttura da soli nel Mediterraneo e probabilmente attraversando Israele fino alla parte Giordana.", "start": 650.19, "end": 667.855 }, { "text": "In realtà però noi pur essendo un attore in tutta la parte meridionale quindi dal Mar Rosso in poi un attore consolidato, non abbiamo delle infrastrutture proprietarie.", "start": 668.555, "end": 679.63 }, { "text": "Il fatto di costruire un'alleanza strategica ci aiutato parecchio.", "start": 680.33, "end": 685.21 }, { "text": "Avremmo potuto prendere 2 strade: quella tradizionale, cioè di creare un consorzio con le Telecom dei vari paesi che il cavo avrebbe attraversato.", "start": 685.21, "end": 695.315 }, { "text": "Abbiamo fatto queste attività in passato, abbiamo cavi dove sono presenti circa 19 operatori diversi, Dei cavi che da un lato ti garantiscono una certa tranquillità nel disbrigo di tutte le pratiche relative all'approdo, alla competenza delle acque territoriali, alla regolamentazione interna del singolo Paese, ma che dall'altro lato, come tempistiche, non incontrano proprio il favore degli iperscaler e della digital trasformation come la intendiamo noi adesso.", "start": 696.09503, "end": 729.395 } ], "start": 650.19, "end": 729.395, "num_words": 163.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perché chiaramente mettere d'accordo", "start": 729.395, "end": 730.835 } ], "start": 729.395, "end": 730.835, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "ci sono troppi soggetti", "start": 730.835, "end": 732.055 } ], "start": 730.835, "end": 732.055, "num_words": 4.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "e quindi per mettere d'accordo quei vari soggetti devi costruire tutta una serie di comitati e sottocomitati che hanno delle competenze specifiche e quindi per ogni competenza specifica ci sono diverse riunioni in presenza o in video che poi determinano una serie di decisioni Queste decisioni devono essere trasmesse all'organo centrale di comando, valutate, eccetera eccetera.", "start": 733.55, "end": 754.06494 }, { "text": "Quindi tempistiche non efficienti però dall'altra parte una certa tranquillità.", "start": 754.605, "end": 758.225 }, { "text": "Il modello che si sta più battendo oggi", "start": 759.96497, "end": 762.78955 } ], "start": 733.55, "end": 762.78955, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "è quello del mini-consorzio, dove tu metti insieme 2 o", "start": 762.78955, "end": 762.91266 } ], "start": 762.78955, "end": 762.91266, "num_words": 10.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "3 che è dove tu metti insieme 2 o 3 carrier come Sparkle e magari poi un una iperscaler che degli interessi in quella regione.", "start": 762.91266, "end": 774.32996 }, { "text": "Questo è quello che abbiamo scelto di fare noi.", "start": 774.32996, "end": 776.82996 }, { "text": "Avevamo Google, che aveva chiaramente interessi di avere connettività tra l'Europa e l'India.", "start": 776.995, "end": 784.935 }, { "text": "Abbiamo trovato un partner affidabile in Omantel, che costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini.", "start": 786.11505, "end": 790.71 }, { "text": "Costituito un'unità Wall Sale fortemente specializzata sui cavi sottomarini.", "start": 791.03, "end": 794.41003 } ], "start": 762.91266, "end": 794.41003, "num_words": 73.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Le nostre competenze e le nostre forze regionali si sono unite per costruire questo sistema.", "start": 796.63, "end": 802.815 }, { "text": "Questo sistema che come dicevo delle caratteristiche peculiari che non troviamo in nessuno degli altri sistemi che collegano magari Singapore con l'Europa.", "start": 802.975, "end": 811.395 }, { "text": "Prima di tutto perché a terra in Italia e non a terra in Francia.", "start": 811.695, "end": 815.375 }, { "text": "Quasi tutti I vecchi cavi della dinastia simiwi ui a Marsiglia o a Toloso insomma siamo lì atterrano in Francia quindi è vero che quando tu fai atterrare un cavo sottomarino quello che ti interessa quello che ti interessa è costruire un ecosistema di player che poi si interconnettono.", "start": 815.375, "end": 835.475 }, { "text": "E questo generalmente succede.", "start": 836.57495, "end": 840.19495 } ], "start": 796.63, "end": 840.19495, "num_words": 104.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Nel momento in cui però quell'ecosistema si ingrandisce troppo e e cambia da diventare ecosistema dominante a diventare single point of failure allora devi trovare un'alternativa.", "start": 840.65497, "end": 852.29 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo trovato l'alternativa ideale in Genova che ci permetteva di diciamo mantenere nel Tirreno una una rotta più o meno tradizionale.", "start": 853.07, "end": 864.545 }, { "text": "Però, per esempio, tutti I cavi che atterrano a Marsiglia passano a ovest della Sardegna.", "start": 864.685, "end": 870.84503 }, { "text": "Noi passiamo est e quindi siamo in grado di gestire anche delle necessità di gestire anche delle necessità di landing particolari, per esempio in Sardegna o in Corsica.", "start": 870.84503, "end": 880.4 }, { "text": "Abbiamo trovato in Genova l'atterraggio ideale.", "start": 882.46, "end": 886.77997 } ], "start": 840.65497, "end": 886.77997, "num_words": 97.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi, questo è un primo punto di diversificazione.", "start": 886.77997, "end": 888.64 }, { "text": "Secondo punto di diversificazione è: se guardi la mappa dei cavi passano tutti per il canale di Sicilia.", "start": 889.315, "end": 894.375 }, { "text": "Noi siamo l'unico cavo che passerà per lo stretto di Messina.", "start": 894.755, "end": 897.575 }, { "text": "Quindi, diversificazione ma anche latenza ridotta.", "start": 898.11505, "end": 900.35504 }, { "text": "Noi abbiamo risparmiato un bel po' di centinaia di chilometri e anche notevoli necessità di interramento, perché nel canale di Sicilia avremmo dovuto interrare parecchio.", "start": 900.35504, "end": 910.9 } ], "start": 886.77997, "end": 910.9, "num_words": 68.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Abbiamo una complessità in più, che è quella di gestire la posa nello stretto di Messina.", "start": 911.92, "end": 916.64 }, { "text": "Quindi, ci sarà da interagire con le autorità portuali, I traghetti e via discorrendo.", "start": 916.64, "end": 920.71497 }, { "text": "Però, una volta che il cavo è posato, rappresenta un'alternativa sostanziale.", "start": 920.855, "end": 924.235 }, { "text": "Poi, dicevo, il grande vantaggio di attraversare Israele e non di attraversare l'Egitto.", "start": 925.01495, "end": 931.435 }, { "text": "Questo si porta dietro situazioni storiche, tasse di attraversamento il nostro cavo non prevede tasse di attraversamento da nessuna parte.", "start": 931.57495, "end": 942.43 } ], "start": 911.92, "end": 942.43, "num_words": 74.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Il nostro cavo approda in ogni punto di approdo approderà in un data center aperto Quindi non ci saranno degli operatori in cambment che ti vincoleranno a comprare da loro il transito tra la cable landing station e il point of presents ma tu nel punto di approdo potrai trovare un ecosistema aperto di operatori che hanno scelto di essere presenti in quel punto e che quindi, se io atterro una fibra, potrò comprare la connettività da ognuno di quei player.", "start": 942.43, "end": 972.55 }, { "text": "Poi, la grande scommessa di Milano.", "start": 973.01, "end": 975.51 }, { "text": "Il cavo a terra a Genova alcune fibre saranno aperte a Genova altre però la maggior parte di esse proseguirà verso Milano.", "start": 975.78503, "end": 984.185 }, { "text": "Quindi il vero punto di approdo in Italia sarà Milano.", "start": 984.185, "end": 987.565 }, { "text": "A Milano abbiamo scelto di approdare in un grande data center neutrale nel quale diciamo sono presenti già una serie di di di player importanti altri ne arriveranno e da lì diciamo mhmm stiamo costruendo un'infrastruttura in fibra che che tocca tutte le altre location di Sparkol a Milano nonché altri data center neutrali quindi daremo la possibilità ai nostri clienti di atterrare o con una fibra dove vogliono loro oppure con sparuta, 10 giga, 100 giga, 400 giga dove volessero loro e poi di andare verso la big internet.", "start": 987.87994, "end": 1023.52997 } ], "start": 942.43, "end": 1023.52997, "num_words": 209.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Diciamo la scommessa principale è quella di abilitare Milano ad uno dei centri nevralgici della connettività europea.", "start": 1023.99, "end": 1033.245 } ], "start": 1023.99, "end": 1033.245, "num_words": 17.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perché devo dire che l'Italia diciamo noi per tanti anni abbiamo patito un pochino l'Italia a livello geografico perché non avevamo delle particolari risorse naturali, non avevamo delle particolari caratteristiche che ci dessero un vantaggio competitivo rispetto ad altri paesi.", "start": 1033.385, "end": 1053.1699 }, { "text": "Ora ce l'abbiamo con la nel settore dei cavi sottomarini sicuramente la posizione italiana nel Mediterraneo e e in Europa è una posizione privilegiata che permette garantendo il giusto diciamo ecosistema a terra una grande attrattività per chi insomma vuole fare questo tipo di di insomma di investimenti e di scelte strategiche.", "start": 1053.1699, "end": 1077.17 }, { "text": "Però parlando di cavi sottomarini e di scelte strategiche, se il Mediterraneo diciamo ci sembra un po' più tranquillo rispetto ad altri mari, almeno così sembra.", "start": 1078.35, "end": 1088.9551 }, { "text": "Nel caso dei cavi sottomarini ci sono 2 rischi che sono, insomma, per ora non si sono, insomma, non ci sono stati dei casi eclatanti però I 2 rischi principali sono quello del sabotaggio e quello dello spionaggio, cioè la possibilità di danneggiare un cavo sottomarino e sappiamo appunto che passa tra il 95 e il 99 por 100 dei dati, spesso fra continenti passa attraverso I canoni sottomarini e quindi la possibilità di isolare un paese dal resto del mondo danneggiando un cavo sottomarino e poi si parla anche della possibilità ancora non così facilmente dimostrabile però di intercettare il traffico che passa attraverso questi cavi con dei mezzi sottomarini soprattutto in acque internazionali in cui ovviamente è più difficile il polising diciamo cioè la protezione e l'intervento di forze dell'ordine internazionali.", "start": 1089.495, "end": 1147.9701 } ], "start": 1033.385, "end": 1147.9701, "num_words": 251.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Come siamo messi davanti a", "start": 1148.725, "end": 1150.565 } ], "start": 1148.725, "end": 1150.565, "num_words": 5.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "questi 2 rischi?", "start": 1150.565, "end": 1151.765 }, { "text": "Beh sicuramente allora I rischi sono reali è inutile girarci intorno diciamo esistono delle attività che possono in un certo senso mitigare allora contro il rischio di taglio accidentale dicevo le politiche di diversificazione sono quelle che bisognerebbe sempre perseguire quindi io mi ricordo anni fa ci fu una mhmm se non sbaglio era una petroliera adesso non ricordo quale quale bandiera abbattevano che di issare l'ancora e quindi percorse diverse centinaia di chilometri con l'ancora ancora abbassata e passando dal canale di Sicilia tagliò tutti I cavi sottomarini che uscivano fuori dall'Egitto e questo determinò uno scossone fu nel periodo natalizio.", "start": 1151.765, "end": 1202.685 }, { "text": "Mi ricordo I colleghi che lavoravano al al Provisioning e al Network Operation Center che lavorarono per tutto il periodo di Natale per diciamo garantire quella che noi chiamiamo restoration è un servizio che si vende regolarmente a chi magari della connettività su un cavo sottomarino.", "start": 1202.685, "end": 1220.33 }, { "text": "Questo chiaramente la diversificazione aumenta la resilienza delle infrastrutture può aumentare la resilienza della connettività che approda in un paese ma certamente contro gli atti di sabotaggio non è non è non è quello che può aiutare.", "start": 1220.33, "end": 1237.205 }, { "text": "Ci sono sicuramente delle attività che si fanno tramite alcuni anche alcuni dispositivi elettronici che aiutano.", "start": 1237.345, "end": 1246.5599 } ], "start": 1150.565, "end": 1246.5599, "num_words": 204.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Per esempio noi abbiamo nel nostro network operation center in Sicilia la possibilità di monitorare varie navi tramite il loro sistema di identificazione e rilevazione tramite il GPS che permette di monitorare se le navi si avvicinano troppo ai cavi.", "start": 1246.5599, "end": 1265.865 }, { "text": "E questo ci consente anche eventualmente di chiamare a bordo della nave per dire attenzione che state passando o siete in un'area dove c'è una concentrazione di cavi quindi diciamo avere una dialettica anche preventiva ci sono poi degli accordi con alcune forze militari che eseguono delle attività di patrolling che chiaramente monitorano la la situazione sia a bordo costa sia anche diciamo per certi per certi limiti mhmm nelle acque internazionali monitorare per intero un cavo transoceanico è assolutamente difficile sicuramente diciamo assistiamo oggi alla presenza in alcuni in alcuni luoghi particolari sappiamo nell'artico anche nel Mediterraneo abbiamo saputo la presenza di navi equipaggiate con particolari sistemi oceanografici di rivelazione che sono in grado di dettagliare con precisione assoluta la posizione dei cavi sottomarini sott'acqua adagiati sul fondo anche quelli che sono come diciamo noi interrati questa è una fonte di preoccupazione non possiamo negarlo sappiamo anche che ci sono dei mhmm dei sommergibili nel Mediterraneo che teoricamente potrebbero avere la mhmm le capabilities o almeno queste sono le speculazioni di di intercettare il traffico in maniera anche non intrusiva e quindi quello che che noi facciamo sono opere di sensibilizzazione del nostro personale tecnico che è sempre diciamo allerta non tanto per guasti o per interruzioni ma anche per minime variazioni di quello che è il diciamo il rapporto segnale rumore o I livelli di amplificazione dei vari ripetitori sommersi perché anche minime variazioni di questi valori potrebbero rappresentare che c'è qualcosa che messo le mani sul cavo sottomarino, lo sta torcendo, lo sta diciamo manipolando e quindi insomma poi stava san dirsi, si prendono le necessarie contromisure", "start": 1266.485, "end": 1401.015 } ], "start": 1246.5599, "end": 1401.015, "num_words": 310.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Quindi insomma il il rischio c'è ci sono degli strumenti per per rispondere e c'è una collaborazione anche con le altre le altre aziende del settore.", "start": 1402.45, "end": 1414.45 }, { "text": "Come come lavorate voi con perché la la la cosa interessante un po' accennavi prima quando si parlava appunto dei consorzi e quando si parlava di questo di questa procedura comunque complessa perché ovviamente comprende vari paesi, vari soggetti eccetera com'è il rapporto con le altre aziende sia con I diciamo I competitor sia anche con le aziende che lavorano nella supply chain che lavorano nella filiera della creazione e del e della gestione in particolare dei", "start": 1414.45, "end": 1448.465 } ], "start": 1402.45, "end": 1448.465, "num_words": 103.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "dei cari sottomarini?", "start": 1448.465, "end": 1449.2849 }, { "text": "Beh guarda allora diciamo per quello che riguarda la parte competitor che poi chiamiamo la competition più che competizione perché è chiaro che quando costruisci un cavo dove partecipano 19 paesi e quindi 19 operatori come te devi necessariamente imparare a collaborare con queste persone.", "start": 1449.385, "end": 1466.36 }, { "text": "Quindi in tutta la fase di identificazione del mercato, costruzione della strategia, identificazione del modello di business e poi anche scelta tecnologica, ingaggio del partner, scrittura dei requisiti di gara, ci deve essere un livello di cooperazione elevatissimo perché altrimenti non vai da nessuna parte.", "start": 1466.36, "end": 1486.7151 }, { "text": "La competizione poi è lasciata al momento in cui, dal giorno 0 in cui il cavo è stato posato e collaudato, allora cominciamo a bastonarci e a competere chiaramente su capability tecnologiche, su percorsi, su visione, su bundling anche con altri servizi.", "start": 1487.0299, "end": 1505.2151 }, { "text": "Il cavo sottomarino non è semplicemente fornire connettività a un player ma è anche come gli fornisci la connettività, come operi.", "start": 1505.915, "end": 1513.915 } ], "start": 1448.465, "end": 1513.915, "num_words": 156.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Noi ci chiamiamo operatori perché operiamo una rete operiamo una rete complessa e quindi forniamo dei servizi human intensive che vanno a un top alla semplice connettività per quanto riguarda la supply chain mi viene da dire il livello di collaborazione deve essere ancora più estremo perché costruire un cavo sottomarino è come realizzare l'orologio svizzero.", "start": 1513.915, "end": 1539.555 }, { "text": "Devono andare a a diciamo al al loro posto 1000000 di elementi che contribuiscono a farti fallire il project plan e fartelo andare sul percorso critico dalla dalla disponibilità del materiale grezzo per l'armatura del cavo quando devi posare un cavo diciamo interrato o o un cavo vicino alla spiaggia aumenta il materiale che devi mettere nella guaina del cavo per la protezione quindi deve essere la disponibilità dei materiali grezzi.", "start": 1539.555, "end": 1571.2401 }, { "text": "Ci deve essere la disponibilità dei componenti elettronici.", "start": 1572.1001, "end": 1575.54 }, { "text": "Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle fabbriche che devono assemblare questa questa componentistica.", "start": 1575.54, "end": 1580.5801 }, { "text": "Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle navi che dovranno andare a prelevare il cavo dalle fabbriche portarlo nei depositi, assemblarlo e poi andarlo a a posare questo per quanto riguarda diciamo la parte di costruzione e posa.", "start": 1580.5801, "end": 1595.875 } ], "start": 1513.915, "end": 1595.875, "num_words": 185.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Chiaramente ci deve essere la disponibilità di tutti I permessi per poter operare all'interno delle acque territoriali.", "start": 1596.9299, "end": 1604.87 }, { "text": "Ci deve essere la disponibilità delle aree demaniali nelle spiagge dove cavo dovrà approdare.", "start": 1605.01, "end": 1612.525 }, { "text": "Ci devono essere le infrastrutture di atterraggio.", "start": 1612.525, "end": 1615.7251 }, { "text": "Ogni cavo deve arrivare in una cosiddetta beach man holl sarebbe la cameretta di spiaggia dove viene realizzato il cosiddetto giunto terramare cioè la parte del cavo viene poi giunta con la con la componente terrestre che ti arriva alla cable landing station.", "start": 1615.7251, "end": 1632.64 }, { "text": "Deve essere presente il front-toll che è quel pezzo di tubazione che dalla cameretta di spiaggia ti porta fino alla cable landing station.", "start": 1632.8601, "end": 1640.2401 } ], "start": 1596.9299, "end": 1640.2401, "num_words": 104.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Non è semplice assemblare tutte queste cose.", "start": 1641.385, "end": 1643.305 }, { "text": "Quindi c'è una collaborazione tra tutti gli attori di una supply chain che è anche abbastanza lunga che deve essere certosina e verificata non dico giornalmente ma con cadenza settimanale perché ogni minimo ritardo può causare un effetto domino che ti potrebbe ritardare mhmm diciamo la la la disponibilità di un approdo anche di 6 mesi con tutte le conseguenze poi economico finanziarie del caso.", "start": 1643.305, "end": 1671.7749 } ], "start": 1641.385, "end": 1671.7749, "num_words": 72.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Grazie.", "start": 1671.995, "end": 1672.495 }, { "text": "Un'ultima domanda che facciamo ai nostri ospiti gli chiediamo di consigliare un un autore, una persona, un'istituzione, qualcuno per approfondire meglio questo argomento, l'argomento di cui sono esperti e quindi ti chiedo chi consigli ai nostri ascoltatori?", "start": 1672.955, "end": 1690.9099 } ], "start": 1671.995, "end": 1690.9099, "num_words": 38.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Guarda, io ho anche portato una stampa qui, ho acquistato proprio la settimana scorsa, un libro che si chiama The under Sea Network ed è di Nicole Starozielsky, che è una società professor della New York University.", "start": 1690.97, "end": 1705.5249 }, { "text": "Ho comprato questo libro non perché mi interessasse sapere qualcosa in più dei cavi sottomarini.", "start": 1705.985, "end": 1710.705 }, { "text": "Quello lo faccio giornalmente al lavoro e presso le varie conferenze a cui partecipo.", "start": 1710.705, "end": 1716.24 }, { "text": "Ma perché questo libro incrocia la dimensione storica con la dimensione geopolitica, la dimensione sociale, la dimensione ambientale che sono talvolta degli aspetti che tu tendi a non considerare o a considerare meno quando ti occupi della tecnologia del prodotto e quindi secondo me è molto interessante.", "start": 1716.24, "end": 1734.655 } ], "start": 1690.97, "end": 1734.655, "num_words": 113.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Perfetto perché appunto l'idea di questo podcast è proprio quello di raccontare la policy, le regole e il sistema geopolitico che ruotano intorno alle tecnologie.", "start": 1735.275, "end": 1746.4199 }, { "text": "Quindi molto interessante.", "start": 1746.4199, "end": 1747.88 }, { "text": "Ti ringrazio per essere stato con noi oggi.", "start": 1748.26, "end": 1750.82 } ], "start": 1735.275, "end": 1750.82, "num_words": 36.0, "speaker": 0 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Piacere mio.", "start": 1750.82, "end": 1751.62 }, { "text": "Grazie 1000 di avermi invitato.", "start": 1751.62, "end": 1753.16 } ], "start": 1750.82, "end": 1753.16, "num_words": 7.0, "speaker": 1 }, { "sentences": [ { "text": "Questo episodio è stato scritto da me ed Eleonora Russo registrato negli studi di Zuan a Roma e prodotto da Business Plus.", "start": 1756.4451, "end": 1763.091 } ], "start": 1756.4451, "end": 1763.091, "num_words": 22.0, "speaker": 0 } ] }, "entities": null, "translations": null, "topics": null } ], "detected_language": "" } ], "utterances": [ { "start": 9.84, "end": 17.994999, "confidence": 0.9598664, "channel": 0, "transcript": "Ti è mai capitato di inviare un'email per prenotare una vacanza 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